No love for Fenix? - Page 5

On February 20 2012 14:01 Hinanawi wrote:
Forikorder so desperately wants WoL to be a good followup to BW when it objectively isn't, it's almost pathetic.

On February 18 2012 07:48 Telenil wrote:
About Fenix: I certainly hope he will never return. Tassadar not being dead would be the worst retcon if not for the good Overmind, and Fenix's death was at least as touching as Tassadar's. Dead people should stay dead, World of Warcraft resurrected dozens of characters that had died (litterally, I was at 25 when I stopped counting). If characters can't be killed, what's the point? Why should I care about Zeratul if the story says "he's a cool guy, dying wouldn't kill him"?
That's partly what was so memorable in Fenix's death. If a beloved character can die, you suddenly care a lot more about the fate of the others.


I totally disagree with that. There is no equivalent to the orcs or the blood elves in SC1, the terran worlds weren't crushed the way Lordaeron was, there was no "brave idealist that turns out to be a power-hungry jerk" in Warcraft 3. Even the alliance between Raynor's Raiders and the Protoss was secondary to the plot, whereas it was the culmination of Reign of Chaos.
You didn't have silly plot holes like "Tychus worked for Mengsk but was the one who piloted the superweapon in Media Blitz". And it didn't end with the hero carrying his naked girlfriend towards the sunset.
I could go on for a while.

You do have a good character that turns evil, a civil war between a former human/elf and bad guys to control the brainless race, with the former human eventually betraying her allies. But that doesn't make the plot "exactly the same".

On February 21 2012 04:47 Xenomorph wrote:
I just think that things that happened in BW should be referenced because they are important to the lore. Also people are negating the plot of BW even though it beats WOL story easily. Raynor spent the entirety of BW zerg missions with Fenix that's more than just a "side-kick" especially when he's one of the most well remembered protoss warriors. I do not want him to return, but I do want him to have an impact on events past. I mean they redid kerrigans betrayal they can't add a flashback, or memory or mention of him?

BW setup SC2 and people are saying its events didn't even matter?

the only thing that happened during broodwar taht set up wing is Zeratuls self-imposed Exile which was more from the books then the game

On February 21 2012 05:45 TheToast wrote:

You've completely mixed up the plots from TFT and ROC, as well as SC2 and BW. I said the plot from SC1 and WC3 ROC were exactly the same.

WC3: ROC (vanilla WC3)
Plucky hero is turned evil and in the next episode is the player's new hero.
Player must fight against an ancient race to finish the conquest of the world.
In the next episode player takes control of the ancient race in an attemp to destroy the evil.
There is a civil war/civil dispute within the ranks of the ancient race that the player eventually overcomes, uniting the race.
Player makes a final assault on the evil people and wins.

This is what we've been telling you from 2 pages: none of the events of Brood War is used in WoL, at all. And we believe this is bad.

On February 21 2012 07:58 Forikorder wrote:

okay then, point out where you think events of brood war could be naturally refrenced without seeming out of place

On top of my mind, there is Kate Lockwell and Dony Vermillon's dialog "The Queen of Blades is a former human, which raises the question, perhaps an alliance between terran and zerg is possible? - Dony, there has never been any evidence, at all, that infested terrans still possess their free will." The correct answer was: "Dony, we've allied with the Queen of Blades to retake this very city from the UED. You could see it from your windows, remember? And then she butchered our men in their sleep."

Or when Zeratul finds the hybrid: "Gods! It is the same creatures that I saw on the Dark Moon four years ago! Have they finally awakened?"

Or Matt Horner: "Jim, Kerrigan is a murderer. When we last thought she could change, it ended with the death of Fenix and many others! I can't believe you're sending us to Char for a remote chance of being with her again."

On February 22 2012 01:59 Forikorder wrote:

wait you actually think that Acturus made it public knowledge in any way that he had teamed up with the Queen of Baldes?

and in case you noticed, the UED didnt exactly set up in much of a residential area

On February 22 2012 01:59 Forikorder wrote:
you assuming Matt had any special relationship with Fenix

It did actually. The briefing explicitely states that Kerrigan's zerg attacked the main UED base at Augustgrade, Khoral's capital.
The Khoral population couldn't miss a bunch of zerg engaging UED soldiers in street fighting, right at the time when Arcturus' followers attacked other objectives on the planet.

Yes, because he is Raynor's second in command on the Hyperion since the first zerg campaign. He knew Fenix as well as Raynor did.

Trying to say that Blizzard wanted to keep the secret mission secret, or that Matt couldn't mention Fenix at any point, is bad faith. You wanted me to give some situations when they could have mentionned Brood War events without feeling out of place, I did. You can find more by yourself if you think a bit

On February 22 2012 02:35 Forikorder wrote:
okay... so what? the Zerg are attacking Korhal anyone who thought that Mengsk teamed with the Zerg wouldnt be thinking that after the zerg started attacking Mengsks forces too, the citizens would jsut see it as Mengsk realising the Zerg were going to attack Korhal and using it as a diversion to retake the planet

i doubt the UED would want a ton of Mengsk loyal people hanging around while hes using all his resources to assault Char and other important objectibves, he knows how resourceful Mengsk is, hed be willing to ship everyone to some other world and keep them locked up somewhere then risk some ghost of Mengsk getting a lucky shot or setting of a Nuke

doesnt mean they were attached to the hip, doesnt mean Matt actually spent anytime chatting it up with the protoss

no you didnt, you offered one plausible situation that is explained by them not wanting to release any spoilers

and your other two jsut dont make sense if there were any civilians at Augustgrad theyd all be dead anyway Kerrigan would ahve just killed them and palyed innocent later, not that Mengsk would ahve had any way of knowing she could even jsut say the UED did it

Man, Mengsk's rousing speech before the battle must have been totally awesome.

"Brave people and soldiers of the Dominion!

Tonight your beloved Emperor comes to deliver you from the evil grasp of your UED tyrants. Join me in that final battle, in the name of Humanity!

On an unrelated note, don't worry about the zerg that have just appeared on the radar and are about to slaughter the human defenders of the capital city where your family live. They will only kill UED soldiers, not your wives and children. No, I'm totally not ally with them, they just dislike UED uniforms. So don't shoot them. Trust me."

Kerrigan *didn't* kill the people of Khoral after True Colours, where Mengsk's forces were decimated. If you say she would, you're wrong. Seriously, do you expect to convince anyone?
It is your right to like the WoL storyline. That's fine with me, you don't even have to justify it. But don't imagine nonsense like "Matt didn't spend any time chatting with the Protoss", "the UED obviously moved millions of people out of Khoral", or "Blizzard didn't want to spoil a level that everyone could play for 12 years" to cover plot holes just because you're unwilling to admit the writers could have done anything differently

assuming that Civilians were even still there

assuming he let anyone know the Zerg would be attacking Augustgrad

and its safe to tell the brainwashed soldiers taht the Zerg are attacking Augustgrad they dont care and wont leak

and again, why wouldnt they evacuate the civilians, ASSUMING that Mengsk didnt ALREADY move his civilians out of teh war zone, AND assuming taht sometime during the UED raining death on there capital the civilians didnt tuck tail and run already?

any civilian could ahve been a ghost or other operative of Mengsk, the UED has no way of knowing if Mengsk has weapons stockpiled somewhere, why would they keep a population that could easily be converted into a powerful militia? i wouldnt be surprised if teh UED killed all the Civilians the Earth sees them as second class citizens, they already killed all of the people with geneic mutations and stuff on earth without batting an eye, why wouldnt Dugalle spend a bit on carpet bombing the civilians?

and ill assume since you didnt bring up Char again you have finally agreed it makes no sense for Matt to bring up Fenix

You assume the civilians are not there. You assume that no one knew he was working with the zerg, when we actually see some of his soldiers carrying the psi emmitters to Braxis. You assume 100% of Mengsk's forces are made of brainwashed soldiers, when it isn't (need a source?). You assume Matt Horner barely met any protoss. And you assume it is possible to evacuate millions of civilians from a metropolis with no one left behind.

Despite your arguments crumbling if you are wrong on even one of these points, you never quote a single briefing, novel or in-game dialog to back you up, because you are making stuff up. I suspect that whatever I say, you're going to stretch your imagination and find a counter-argument, no matter how absurd it is.

Hey, let me play too: since you didn't answer to "it would be stupid from Blizzard to try not to spoil a game that went out 12 years ago", I assume you agree that Brood War events could have been mentionned there, thus I win.

and yes, every soldier in Mengsks army has been resocialized, its a pretty major lore point

im pretty sure its more logical to assume that everyone in Augustgrad either A) evacuated or B) died

im not quite sure the average intelligence of a terran, but im pretty sure there smart nough to run away when nukes start getting launched

they didnt want to spoil the secret mission and it would have been very confusing to people if Zeratul just said "oh look its that thing i saw a few years ago" becuase then majority of players would ahve no clue at all what the thing he saw 4 years ago was

and theres no Way Mengsk would have let a single Civilian know about the Zerg and theres no way kerrigan would have jsut ignored civilians, why would she? the swarm is hungry, she has bases set up right next to them, those forces are uninvolved in the assasination, why not munch of some civs while shes got down time? she wants Mengsk to realise how he cant protect anything you think shed just kill some B list general and wave goodbye?

Wrong. From the novel Wings of Liberty, when the hero is sent with the Confederate Marine Corps: "do you know how many people there have been brainwashed? -Never more than 50% per unit."
Now you're going to tell me that it was at the time of the Confederacy, but do you have any quote stating it has changed? No. Do you have, in fact, any quote unambiguously stating there was a time when 100% of the marines were neurosocialised? Not that the Dominion army makes heavy use of brainwashed soldiers, but that they all are, no exceptions? I'd be surprised. Do I have a quote that explicitely states the opposite? Yes.

In that case, you should take time to read some history books. There was still civilians in Stalingrad after 6 months of one the most terrible battles in history, including three months in the heart of the Russian winter with soldiers dying from hunger. Even in 2012, Syrian forces have been bombing a city for 17 days and counting, with artillery and snipers shooting people in the street, but there are still thousands of people living there.