EPTOracle Design - Page 3
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jsemmens
United States439 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
It's not particularly good at defense, but it's not quite accurate to say that it's useless either. I like to think of the ability to warp buildings out of existence as the primary advantage of the unit, with the spell to block mineral patches as icing on the cake. Pre-ordain, from what I understand, gives you vision of the area around the structure as well for 2 whole minutes, so you can use the oracles as harassing observers without detection. | ||
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erazerr
Australia86 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On November 02 2011 15:51 erazerr wrote: It would be great to see protoss get a gateway harass/worker killer. I completely agree with the OP. Anything dropped from a warp prism just doesn't kill workers fast enough or isn't safe enough to drop and be cost-efficient. The replicant can be a harass unit, it won't be as good as having our own dedicated unit, but the versitility of it might be enough to justify the cost (especially considering how fast it builds). If terran makes reapers, banshees, hellions, or whatever else they want to harass with, they risk you copying those units and harassing him with it. | ||
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
The oracle needs some way of helping protoss take a 3rd base, harass is nice, but if nothing comes of it, ultimately protoss is still behind because they've invested in dead end tech. After killing 10 -15 workers with a banshee, the scariest time is the next 2-3 minutes, where the opponent has to decide whether he wants to all-in or not. After that time, you know you have a fairly decisive advantage provided you didn't cut workers, and you can throw down a 3rd fairly safely, because your opponent will have spent the time and money trying to recover economically while you try to get more ahead. The oracle as a harass unit neither allows you to secure a 3rd safely or deal enough economic damage to force an all-in. I might be wrong but losing half your workers to cloak banshee is worthy of an all-in, but losing half a base's income for the 15 seconds it takes to remove it isn't. The oracle needs some defensive utility because without it, it's not a safe tech. No map control, no lasting economic damage. There's scouting, but unless stargate changes drastically, it's still very dead-end as far as mid-game transitions go. | ||
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deadmau
960 Posts
On November 02 2011 15:24 Belha wrote: I think this is the most important aka resume all. Protoss need a new basic, non spellish, non gimmicky unit, prolly raiding unit. A few days ago WHITE-RA was asked in his stream about the patch, and i remember perfectly. He says: "Blizzard is adding too many spells units. Sc is not an rts/rpg game (i think he refer to wc3), sc is strategic game. Protoss need a good basic gateway unit, like "the terrans have mariners". I agree with both, kcdc, and white-ra. I am definitely behind you on this one Belha, this is EXACTLY, how I feel about the Oracle. All of it really. The IDEA of getting a new totally gimmicky spellcaster is plain bad. Anyone that thinks this is cool is playing the wrong game, this is not WC3 or WoW, cut the crap with gimmicky spells. We need a basic unit, does it have to be flashy, no, just needs to fulfill it's purpose, shit it just needs to be useful. | ||
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imJealous
United States1382 Posts
On November 02 2011 13:58 kcdc wrote: It should be. But it's pretty simple: DT's are good if your opponent isn't prepared. Otherwise, they're expensive archons. Either way, they're not consistent harass options because your opponent will certainly be prepared the second time. Until you use your oracle to disable his spore crawlers/turrets/cannons... | ||
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cpomz
United States76 Posts
My main concern with the Oracle is the seeming lack of utility against Terran. Planetaries/Turrets/Vikings/Sensor towers all significantly weaken the potential of the Oracle(assuming low life) and the potential targets for the phase shift against terran feel terrible. The only real significant targets may be a tech lab or an upgrade, whereas the zerg and protoss targets seem so much more juicy. kcdc also pointed out how vikings were a regular tech path due to colossus, however the Oracle is part of a tech path that protoss has to go out of his way to get and is countered by the regular tech path of terran. Right now I see the Oracle as a cool unit in PvZ and PvP, but it seems so useless in the PvT matchup | ||
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Fuhrmaaj
167 Posts
It would be nice if the Oracle had a proper defensive spell so it could make Stargate tech more viable, particularly in PvT. One thing I haven't seen too many people talk about is that the Oracle is roughly the speed of a Phoenix, so it might be able to prolong the viability of the Phoenix's harass by phasing out missile turrets and spores so the Phoenix can continue to lift workers. This is true of the Void Rays as well; the Oracle could phase out spores so the Void Rays could clean them up or kill Queen's or whatever. On November 02 2011 14:07 Vindicare605 wrote: 1) It is not an entire tech path. The tech path you're referring to is the Twilight Council -> Dark Shrine or Templar Archives. Either one of those also nets you Archons, DTs give you harassment options and map control and High Templar give you additional splash damage or feedback. 2) Not only that, but if you're going to argue the way they are about not being a true harassment option in case your opponent is prepared, well then you're opening a can of worms because the same can be said for every dedicated harassment unit. 3) Banshees should never bother researching cloaking because your opponent will just be ready for it, 4) Terrans should never use Reapers with the intention of anything other than scouting because your opponent will be ready for them. 5) Mutas should never be used to harass because they'll just die to Turrets and Photon Cannons. 6) Hellions should never bother researching Blue Flame, and besides who needs hellions when you have marines amirite? 7) You can't make a post like you're doing and then completely neglect various units for your own biased reasons. It's one great way to just have people ignore the entire content of your post without actually reading it and discussing it. Numbers were added so I can discuss point-by-point: 1) I think you're being intentionally facetious here, but I'll indulge. It obviously is an entire tech path and you can make expensive archons if you like, but it's suboptimal. There are researches available as well, which expand the utility of gateway units, or you can invest in HTs. Gateway units ofc struggle against Terran and HTs are stronger on three bases. DTs are better in the early game, which means that the Tier 3 twilight tech is strong at different stages of the game. It's not a big deal, but it is a huge investment. 2) I can't speak for docovc, but I don't think that was the point he was trying to make. He explicitly said that DTs work best when Terran's unprepared, and it's common that they have an e-bay but no missile turrets so it comes down to the scans. Zerg know that DTs are a threat so good players will have an evo chamber and perhaps even spores or go for an early lair so they can get overseers. As docvoc said, DTs are good late game PvZ despite zerg preparing for them earlier. 3) Banshees don't typically research cloaking because opponents must be ready for it otherwise they instantly lose the game. If your builds aren't prepared for Banshees, either by scouting or by detection, then you are taking a huge risk. Sometimes cloaking is researched, but it rarely covers its cost in damage done. The advantage gained is map control, which is a marginal advantage over the workers you were going to kill any way. The exception is of course TvT where you rely on scans until you can get turrets up. Another point to make about Banshees is that rushing to them opens up medivacs and additional harass options. Rushing to DTs allows you to research Blink, but you won't have stalkers yet because of the investment into Dark Shrine. 4) Yup, this is when Terrans use reapers. If a reaper can do any damage then this is a bonus and isn't expected. Stick them on watchtowers because they're not terribly useful now. This is why Protoss used to have to chronoboost stalkers before the reaper nerf; Zerg have queens out early enough to deal with reapers (typically); and terran deal with reapers using proper marine placement. 5) 2 base mutas are typically considered an ee han timing. This means they hit at a time where they have to do damage in order to justify delaying your expansion. They come out in ZvT after defeating a push, then they go chip away at workers. The main difference between mutas and DTs is that you can get about 30 mutas without gimping themselves and at this size they can harass bigger things and ignore base defenses. I would argue that DTs are also an ee han timing but are less versatile and if the opponent prepares for them in advance then Protoss loses the game. 6) As a result of the recent patch it takes 3 hellions with or without blue flame to kill a worker (except in TvT). So the only reason to research blue flame is to improve your effectiveness against the army. 7) I play random, so I hope my points come from a more neutral perspective. I honestly think that the Oracle looks interesting; the warp prism is a unique and powerful harass; and DTs are a viable harass. I also think that one or two base DTs are an ee han timing, but that you need to either squeeze in HTs or Colo as well on two or three bases. It's just an expensive tech route. I don't really like banshees either, particularly in comparison to blue flame hellions or even just marine drops. In fact, I just love dropships. For zerg, mutas and infestors are invaluable harass units and +2 bling drops on the mineral line are pretty disgusting. I wouldn't say that Protoss doesn't have harass options, but that DTs are one of the poorest harass options of the game's viable harass options. Hopefully my points were cogent! | ||
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JamesJohansen
United States213 Posts
I just find it boring as shit Edit: and very annoying, a real pain in the ass to fight against | ||
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Schokomuesli
Germany12 Posts
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nt-rAven
Canada405 Posts
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ArcticRaven
France1406 Posts
On November 02 2011 14:25 kcdc wrote:Second, the tempest is the perfect complement to a colossus deathball since it kills corruptors and vikings. Ooooh.... I don't think so. The way they presented it, it's mostly a flying Thor, and It's gonna get kited by vikings and out-dpsed by corrupters (which are going to counter it as they do every capital ship). | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16122 Posts
On November 02 2011 15:56 Amui wrote: As a concept the oracle works, but in reality, especially as protoss, you can't waste gas to just deny a bit of mining against a good opponent. A marauder drop works because MMGV v P is a mineral reliant comp, you often see terrans get 2 orbitals running with 30+ scv's without getting a second gas. A zergling runby doesn't cost gas either, and ZvP is fairly gas dependant. The oracle needs some way of helping protoss take a 3rd base, harass is nice, but if nothing comes of it, ultimately protoss is still behind because they've invested in dead end tech. After killing 10 -15 workers with a banshee, the scariest time is the next 2-3 minutes, where the opponent has to decide whether he wants to all-in or not. After that time, you know you have a fairly decisive advantage provided you didn't cut workers, and you can throw down a 3rd fairly safely, because your opponent will have spent the time and money trying to recover economically while you try to get more ahead. The oracle as a harass unit neither allows you to secure a 3rd safely or deal enough economic damage to force an all-in. I might be wrong but losing half your workers to cloak banshee is worthy of an all-in, but losing half a base's income for the 15 seconds it takes to remove it isn't. The oracle needs some defensive utility because without it, it's not a safe tech. No map control, no lasting economic damage. There's scouting, but unless stargate changes drastically, it's still very dead-end as far as mid-game transitions go. You're making the assumption that a banshee harass will kill anywhere from 10-15 workers when 6 kills per banshee is considered to be cost effective, 10-15 is twice that. You're assuming that Banshee harassment is always that effective when in reality it isn't, even at the pro level pros will lose their banshees before hitting that 6 kill mark. You see it all the time in TvT. Secondly, Protoss already have a gasless harassment option. Zealot/Prism drops cost ZERO gas. Even the Marine/Medivac Drop costs 100 gas per medivac, the Zealot/Prism drop only requires gas for the robotics facility and can be reinforced with stronger more expensive units if you catch your opponent dangerously out of position. The Oracle is a compliment to other Protoss options. By itself it is still capable of shutting down mining and escaping. It moves as fast as a phoenix and can disable turrets on its way in or out. This means that as long as you keep the Oracle alive it can harass mineral lines all game for a single one time investment. On top of that its ability to shut down Turrets or Cannons makes it a great support unit to other harassment options like Zealot or DT drops/warps. Honestly, I feel like people in this thread are looking at the Oracle in a vaccuum without even trying to consider how good it is when mixed with what Protoss already has. This is why the people that have used them in the HOTS mods are always impressed with how good they are. It's an underrated concept, I think it's worth giving a chance. The Replicant on the other hand? Not so much. | ||
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AA.spoon
Belgium331 Posts
Against terran stargate tech isn't really viable because it is hard to transition out of. That won't change with the oracle. Zergs are going to laugh when they see an orcale and are going to triple expand. The oracle harass options are really poor, Blizzard will nedd to buff it to make it WAY stronger. The ability to shut down a building could be strong tough. | ||
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CharlieBrownsc
Canada598 Posts
B) I still think the reaper should be a protoss unit, as much as 4gates would become even more terrible, it fits protoss way better | ||
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DarQraven
Netherlands553 Posts
On November 02 2011 14:57 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: The OP has left out a very powerful mid-game push that will likely wreck any unprepared opponent. Oracle/phoniex will negate early static defenses and basically force any decent player to turtle up once spotting stargates. 2 oracles/8 phoniex can strip a base clean of workers and with more phoneix, AA units will not fare any better. Add in phase shifting the hydra den or cybercore and it could well be gg right there. With an attack like that, the choice is simple: counterattack. That's 1600m/1200g/24f of mostly harmless air units in the midgame you're talking about there (excluding pylons and stargate(s))..how much army bulk do you think that leaves you with if your opponent decides to counter? For reference, that's the entirety of 5-6 minutes of mining two gases, all sunk into air units without real DPS value, Honestly this just seems like one of those cute things that work for a few weeks until people know what to look for, the same way you saw some tech timings early in SC2's life that went away as soon as people played against them more than twice. | ||
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Deimos0
Poland277 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On November 02 2011 17:12 ArcticRaven wrote: Ooooh.... I don't think so. The way they presented it, it's mostly a flying Thor, and It's gonna get kited by vikings and out-dpsed by corrupters (which are going to counter it as they do every capital ship). They did say that the tempest is meant to be good against EVERY air unit, but especially against mutalisks. That to me means it might support a colossus army better than phoenixes or void rays. On topic: i'm unsure about the Oracle. I think it's strength is more about the tech raiding ability than shutting down the minerals (although it will be hilarious to wait until terrans drop 10 mules on a gold, and then entombing it); i'm just not sure if p will be able to use it reliably, or if it will only be for some gimmicky gateway/stargate timing while you phase shift a roach warren or something. It doesn't seem such a bad unit, but i too wish we had an ability to reliably kill workers while not investing into something that's not our main army, like with a bio drop or speedling runby. | ||
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
On November 02 2011 15:45 jsemmens wrote: Honestly, I'm interested in seeing the potential of the ability to "stun" buildings like FilmNoir above me. I'm not entirely sure of the duration or mechanics of it, but I could see this being a nice part of a timing attack for Protoss (i.e. stun a tech lab researching stim and then push or something). I fee like everyone has sort of ignored that aspect of the unit completely and what it is capable of. (theorycrafting begin!) Cough overseers contaminate cough | ||
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