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I posted a thread a couple weeks ago with my gut reaction to the oracle's cost efficiency, but as many people noted, the costs can be tweaked. Lost in that thread were some more significant problems I see with the design of the unit. So I'd like to post an analysis that is dedicated to the more important aspects of the design. Apologies to those who feel they've already heard too much from me on the oracle. You don't have to read this.
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As Blizzard and the community are aware, Protoss presently lacks consistent economy harassment options. In Wings of Liberty, Protoss does have tools to kill workers, but these tools are often a large investment that is easily denied by the opponent when compared to the raiding options for Terran and Zerg. Currently, Protoss's best economy harassment options are:
-Phoenix: The Phoenix is excellent for scouting and killing workers, but because they can't shoot ground, you need 4+ phoenixes to harass which is a massive investment for a unit that can't damage buildings and has very little defensive value. Zerg typically responds to phoenixes by expanding and droning even harder since Protoss has very little ground force. Phoenixes are almost never used as a harass option against Terran because they leave Protoss without sufficient defense.
-Void ray: Void rays are decent harassment tools against Zerg because Zerg has limited early anti-air capabilities. Making a couple void rays allows Protoss to kill drones and overlords, and may do more significant damage if Zerg fails to respond properly. More importantly, the void rays provide excellent defensive value by shutting down early roach timing attacks, and if the void rays survive until late game, they are useful for killing corruptors and broodlords. Void rays are a multi-dimensional unit in PvZ, and because they allow economy raids while aiding defense and smoothing transitions, void ray openings are common against Zerg. Against Terran, void rays are sometimes used for early all-ins, but they have almost no combat value against marines, and are therefore rarely used beyond the early game against Terran.
-Warp prism + zealot or sentry or immortal: Warp prism harass is a low-cost alternative to stargate harass. While the stargate units allow a greater number of worker kills, the warp prism costs no gas and is available from the robo facility which churns out Protoss's best combat units. Because of its cost and placement in the tech tree, warp prisms can be incorporated into streamlined builds without significantly sacrificing core army strength. The downsides to the warp prism is that it does little damage because a good opponent will pull his workers away in time to avoid losing them. Against Terran, prisms have a limited window where they can harass effectively because Terran needs to get vikings in order to combat colossi. This means that Terran does not have to stray from his optimal strategy at all in order to shut down the harassment.
-Blink stalkers: Blink stalkers are really only a harassment unit in PvP (mirror design is another issue) and in PvT against macro-oriented siege tank strategies, but these strategies are rarely seen. Blink stalkers are often unable to retreat against stimmed marauders, speedlings or infestors, so the risk involved in blink stalker harass significantly outweighs the rewards.
-Dark templar: I don't really think DT's belong on this list because they are not consistent raiding options, but people have requested their inclusion. DT's can be used for early or mid-game cheese (more of a killing role than a harass role), but they do serve a harass role in late game, particularly against Zerg. DT's can absolutely be used effectively, but due to their cost, tech path, and how effectively they can be denied by a wary opponent, they are not among the best options for a Protoss player looking to apply constant pressure to slow his opponent's economy.
To summarize, stargate openings allow access to good scouting and economy raiding tools, but often leave Protoss without a strong enough army to defend or to punish extremely greedy play. Warp prisms can be efficiently incorporated into a build, but Protoss lacks units to drop that can actually kill workers, and because warp prisms are flying units, the height of their utility is short-lived against a Terran that wants to get vikings anyway.
Understanding the shortcomings of these raiding options, I was very excited to see what raiding tools Blizzard would offer Protoss in Heart of the Swarm. When I found out that it would likely be the oracle, I was disappointed on several levels.
-The oracle builds from the stargate. Protoss already has solid harassment options that build from the stargate. What strategic roles does the orcale fill for Protoss that aren't already filled by the phoenix and void ray? If I want a scout that denies Zerg some minerals, I can build a few phoenixes for a full scout, I'll get some drone and overlord kills, I might pick off a queen, and Zerg will build a handful of spore crawlers across his bases. I can pretty comfortably do 1,000+ minerals of damage between kills and forcing suboptimal responses.
Moreover, because the oracle builds from the stargate, it cannot be efficiently incorporated into the robo builds that need stronger harassment options.
-The oracle can't shoot and is one-dimensional. Even if the oracle is balanced in such a way that it surpasses the harassment value of the phoenix and void ray, it lacks even the limited combat utility of its stargate peers. If Protoss already can't afford to get phoenixes or void rays against Terran, how can we expect them to afford a dedicated harassment unit that offers even less defensive value? Moreover, unlike the void ray (or the banshee or mutalisk), the oracle is only capable of raiding, and cannot be recycled into other functions after the harass has been defended. The mark of a robust unit design (like the void ray) is that it retains its value in many roles and is over-powered in none of them. Because the oracle is exceptionally one-dimensional, its harassment ability needs to be extremely strong in order to justify its cost. Blizzard is painting itself into a corner where the oracle's single function will need to be overpowered in order to offset its failings across the board.
-The oracle, as prosposed at BlizzCon, is ridiculously expensive. Gas is the lifeblood of the Protoss force that allows sentries, colossi, archons, storm, void rays, stalkers, etc. Beyond the mid-game, minerals are largely a throw-away resource dumped on spawning zealots to distract the opponent or lines of cannons to shore up expansions. For the cost of an oracle, Zerg can afford an expansion, and because a Protoss that has built an oracle will have too little gas invested in their army, he will be unable to punish the Zerg's expansion. Compare this to a zealot drop which costs no gas, is available from a more streamlined tech path, and achieves the same purpose of preventing workers from mining at a mineral line until a force returns to the base.
What Protoss needs is a land-based harassment unit that is available from the gateway or robotics facility and will have value in multiple dimensions of the game. We don't need another unit that encourages Zerg to take expansions or that leaves Protoss undefended against Terran and is shut down cold by vikings. I'd be thrilled if Protoss were given the hellion or reaper. But instead, Blizzard has offered us the phoenix 2.0.
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Canada13407 Posts
Very well written and well thought out. Seriously this is exactly how protoss players should all feel about any harassment that isn't lategame.
In a way I feel protoss is very strong lategame with its cost effective mineral sinks of zealots and warp prisms.
Only at this time is Protoss really able to keep an army that is able to defend (gas based in PvZ, large enough in PvT) while being able to send units out to attack and harass the opponent. However at this time its not really harassment that matters. It helps slow down the opponent and let you overtake them when a battle happens but it doesn't get you an advantage in the midgame.
Basically the way I see it is the following:
As protoss I feel that if I harass (not a timing, not using my whole army) it does nothing. Stalkers won't kill workers in a drop. Zealots will do little damage since they are slow and melee. Sentries, they might stop them from moving and then perhaps kill them? But the gas investment for them is so large if they die then Protoss has lost way too much.
No unit other than immortals in PvP is useful to drop in my opinion reliably or "safely"
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The oracle needs to kill workers. Blocking minerals is really lame.
User was warned for this post
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On November 02 2011 13:42 sluggaslamoo wrote:
The oracle needs to kill workers. Blocking minerals is really lame.
No its not, we already have that, and its staying; the phoenix is a fast flying unit that picks up and kills workers..
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On November 02 2011 13:42 sluggaslamoo wrote:
The oracle needs to kill workers. Blocking minerals is really lame.
you mean a 2nd pheonix?
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On November 02 2011 13:45 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 13:42 sluggaslamoo wrote:
The oracle needs to kill workers. Blocking minerals is really lame. you mean a 2nd pheonix?
I mean a Reaver.
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Wow. An oracle discussion that actually has thought put into it.
And from my BlizzCon playtime, I have seen that oracles are only really effective mid to late game. There is no point to rush to them, they just don't do enough on their own. But combined with say a 3 gate zealot push, disabling a spawning pool could be pretty effective.
Against terran, yeah, they're useless early game. But they are actually useful to fuck their macro up if they can't pull units away to unlock the minerals, as in, you entomb the minerals and they can't reinforce, and if they pull marines to unlock them, then they can't hold the toss army.
It's just going to be a high skill-cap unit. Simple as that, tbh, from my experience.
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I agree, I feel like the most glory this spell is ever going to see is like that of the overseer's Contaminate some use but ultimately not that amazing...
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Without getting in to why I like the Oracle. Can I ask you something?
Why is the Dark Templar not included in your list of Protoss Harassment options?
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From a spectator's point of view, an oracle flying over a mineral line and covering them with stasis fields is perhaps the least exciting spell in the game.
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On November 02 2011 13:50 Vindicare605 wrote:
Without getting in to why I like the Oracle. Can I ask you something?
Why is the Dark Templar not included in your list of Protoss Harassment options?
It should be. But it's pretty simple: DT's are good if your opponent isn't prepared. Otherwise, they're expensive archons. Either way, they're not consistent harass options because your opponent will certainly be prepared the second time.
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On November 02 2011 13:50 Vindicare605 wrote:
Without getting in to why I like the Oracle. Can I ask you something?
Why is the Dark Templar not included in your list of Protoss Harassment options?
That is an entire tech path that needs dedication, nobody in their right mind would go DT vs terran unless they are cheesing for one game, its not a safe path. Against zerg, with the spore buff, they are good until spores come down, which is a commonplace reaction now and zergs just get an earlier evo for the upgrades. Dt's are great late game but they require huge investments and must pay off.
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Dark Templars hinder the enemy expanding unless they invest in mobile detection.
How is that not economy harass?
And we already have threads on the Oracle.
I don't think:
"nobody read my opinion (which I think is more valuable than everyone else's) so I'll make it a thread of it's own instead of replying to the existing threads"
is a legitimate reason to make this a thread.
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On November 02 2011 13:58 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 13:50 Vindicare605 wrote:
Without getting in to why I like the Oracle. Can I ask you something?
Why is the Dark Templar not included in your list of Protoss Harassment options? It should be. But it's pretty simple: DT's are good if your opponent isn't prepared. Otherwise, they're expensive archons. Either way, they're not consistent harass options because your opponent will certainly be prepared the second time.
Actually DT's are used a ton in late game, especially in pro games.
They are very useful for taking down expansions late game and general harrasing, their applications in early and mid game are risky and a gamble, but late game is a entire different story when you have a large bank and your opponent has alot of expansions.
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On November 02 2011 13:58 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 13:50 Vindicare605 wrote:
Without getting in to why I like the Oracle. Can I ask you something?
Why is the Dark Templar not included in your list of Protoss Harassment options? It should be. But it's pretty simple: DT's are good if your opponent isn't prepared. Otherwise, they're expensive archons. Either way, they're not consistent harass options because your opponent will certainly be prepared the second time.
Well, I'd be prepared the second time for Prism drops, blink Stalkers, Phoenixes as well. Maybe DTs are little too expensive for their very brief effective timing, but they are as viable as any of the previous listed harass options you listed IMO.
That said though, DTs are often a lot more than a harass unit, and can effectively be game-ending, that's one of its major difference between the other options.
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On November 02 2011 14:02 docvoc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 13:50 Vindicare605 wrote:
Without getting in to why I like the Oracle. Can I ask you something?
Why is the Dark Templar not included in your list of Protoss Harassment options? That is an entire tech path that needs dedication, nobody in their right mind would go DT vs terran unless they are cheesing for one game, its not a safe path. Against zerg, with the spore buff, they are good until spores come down, which is a commonplace reaction now and zergs just get an earlier evo for the upgrades. Dt's are great late game but they require huge investments and must pay off.
It is not an entire tech path. The tech path you're referring to is the Twilight Council -> Dark Shrine or Templar Archives. Either one of those also nets you Archons, DTs give you harassment options and map control and High Templar give you additional splash damage or feedback.
Not only that, but if you're going to argue the way they are about not being a true harassment option in case your opponent is prepared, well then you're opening a can of worms because the same can be said for every dedicated harassment unit.
Banshees should never bother researching cloaking because your opponent will just be ready for it,
Terrans should never use Reapers with the intention of anything other than scouting because your opponent will be ready for them.
Mutas should never be used to harass because they'll just die to Turrets and Photon Cannons.
Hellions should never bother researching Blue Flame, and besides who needs hellions when you have marines amirite?
You can't make a post like you're doing and then completely neglect various units for your own biased reasons. It's one great way to just have people ignore the entire content of your post without actually reading it and discussing it.
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"-The oracle can't shoot and is one-dimensional. Even if the oracle is balanced in such a way that it surpasses the harassment value of the phoenix and void ray, it lacks even the limited combat utility of its stargate peers. If Protoss already can't afford to get phoenixes or void rays against Terran, how can we expect them to afford a dedicated harassment unit that offers even less defensive value? Moreover, unlike the void ray (or the banshee or mutalisk), the oracle is only capable of raiding, and cannot be recycled into other functions after the harass has been defended. The mark of a robust unit design (like the void ray) is that it retains its value in many roles and is over-powered in none of them. Because the oracle is exceptionally one-dimensional, its harassment ability needs to be extremely strong in order to justify its cost. Blizzard is painting itself into a corner where the oracle's single function will need to be overpowered in order to offset its failings across the board. "
It can fit in well with an army though, or in conjunction with an attack, espicially against zerg.
zergs replenish armies quickly with lings/roaches. Well while your attacking the front, the oracles go in, lock out the roach warnen/pool or any structure u want, and they CANNOT MAKE IT, thus limiting there ability to replace there army during/after the battle
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United States475 Posts
I don't think it makes sense to discuss something like this without having played the actual game. The closest I've come is the HotS custom game, and oracles felt really fucking good, borderline broken. With a unit that has so many different abilities and so many potential uses, we can't really say too much about it. Even once the beta or even retail is out, everything will still be underexplored. Consider the hellion. There was a time in which people thought hellions were useless garbage.
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Agree 100% with this post kcdc, this is exactly my thoughts on the Oracle. I think the idea of the Oracle is great but it doesn't fill the role that the Oracle is suppose to be: An early game cheep harassment unit that can scout.
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On November 02 2011 14:09 SMD wrote:
"-The oracle can't shoot and is one-dimensional. Even if the oracle is balanced in such a way that it surpasses the harassment value of the phoenix and void ray, it lacks even the limited combat utility of its stargate peers. If Protoss already can't afford to get phoenixes or void rays against Terran, how can we expect them to afford a dedicated harassment unit that offers even less defensive value? Moreover, unlike the void ray (or the banshee or mutalisk), the oracle is only capable of raiding, and cannot be recycled into other functions after the harass has been defended. The mark of a robust unit design (like the void ray) is that it retains its value in many roles and is over-powered in none of them. Because the oracle is exceptionally one-dimensional, its harassment ability needs to be extremely strong in order to justify its cost. Blizzard is painting itself into a corner where the oracle's single function will need to be overpowered in order to offset its failings across the board. "
It can fit in well with an army though, or in conjunction with an attack, espicially against zerg.
zergs replenish armies quickly with lings/roaches. Well while your attacking the front, the oracles go in, lock out the roach warnen/pool or any structure u want, and they CANNOT MAKE IT, thus limiting there ability to replace there army during/after the battle
Well to start with, Browder specifically said the goal of the oracle was for it not to be a combat unit that can be added to a Protoss death ball. So he doesn't want it to be like the Banshee at all in that regard.
However that doesn't mean that entomb is the only ability that's worth anything on the Oracle. The ability to shut down turrets and crawlers can be extremely helpful in upping the effectiveness of Protoss's other harassment options.
Imagine how good Phoenixes or Void Rays will be if you have an Oracle around that can disable crawlers and turrets for them.
Just because it's a support unit/raider doesn't mean it's entirely one dimensional.
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EPT
