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I wasn't convinced by your first take on this subject matter. This draft is more detailed and articulate and I really appreciate the contribution...a solid meditation.
As far as entomb/mineral lock, I think you make a great point in noting that zealot drops already achieve this: zealots drop, zerg pulls drones, zerg kills zealots, droning resumes.
I like the oracle for its potential to phase out buildings. I think this could really help with tailoring responses to timing attacks against zerg. But I do agree that the cost of making this unit (I mean the cost as far as what you sacrifice in your main army) may be prohibitive to the extent that gas is necessary for our meatier units.
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yep. the oracle might find uses for gimmicky strategies or specific timings, but overall doesn't really satisfy any of the concerns of protoss players
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Why don't you wait until the units are released to complain. This is just a big theorycraft pile of garbage until then. 1 thread was enough, please at least try to contain your stupidity to the single thread so the rest of us can sift through less crap on TL.
User was warned for this post
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EDIT: Wrong topic
Very comprehensive analysis by the way, I read it earlier today didn't have enough time to post on account of it being so long and detailed :D
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On November 02 2011 14:15 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 14:09 SMD wrote:
"-The oracle can't shoot and is one-dimensional. Even if the oracle is balanced in such a way that it surpasses the harassment value of the phoenix and void ray, it lacks even the limited combat utility of its stargate peers. If Protoss already can't afford to get phoenixes or void rays against Terran, how can we expect them to afford a dedicated harassment unit that offers even less defensive value? Moreover, unlike the void ray (or the banshee or mutalisk), the oracle is only capable of raiding, and cannot be recycled into other functions after the harass has been defended. The mark of a robust unit design (like the void ray) is that it retains its value in many roles and is over-powered in none of them. Because the oracle is exceptionally one-dimensional, its harassment ability needs to be extremely strong in order to justify its cost. Blizzard is painting itself into a corner where the oracle's single function will need to be overpowered in order to offset its failings across the board. "
It can fit in well with an army though, or in conjunction with an attack, espicially against zerg.
zergs replenish armies quickly with lings/roaches. Well while your attacking the front, the oracles go in, lock out the roach warnen/pool or any structure u want, and they CANNOT MAKE IT, thus limiting there ability to replace there army during/after the battle Well to start with, Browder specifically said the goal of the oracle was for it not to be a combat unit that can be added to a Protoss death ball. So he doesn't want it to be like the Banshee at all in that regard. However that doesn't mean that entomb is the only ability that's worth anything on the Oracle. The ability to shut down turrets and crawlers can be extremely helpful in upping the effectiveness of Protoss's other harassment options. Imagine how good Phoenixes or Void Rays will be if you have an Oracle around that can disable crawlers and turrets for them. Just because it's a support unit/raider doesn't mean it's entirely one dimensional.
This crap about not adding to the deathball is....crap. First, Protoss's deathball really isn't stronger than MMVG or infestor+broodlord, so it seems silly to focus on that issue. Second, the tempest is the perfect complement to a colossus deathball since it kills corruptors and vikings. So Blizzard is strengthening the deathball significantly--they're just not doing it with the oracle. It's sort of like how Blizzard said there were too many good ways to kill workers, but ignored that the best options belong to Terran and Zerg. Then they give Protoss a dedicated raiding unit that also can't kill workers.
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IMO the oracle by itself isn't what's effective, it's combining things like the oracle's Econ harass with new abilities of the Nexus like the building turret spell. By giving Protoss a way to deny mining, and defend early pushes more easily, will change the current standards of PvX, especially PvZ, where counter attacks are becoming way more frequent.
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I'm so tired I thought this thread was about the company Oracle, and they had some big project they were designing. Then I remembered the HOTS unit ;o.
The Oracle is kind of meh. Oo delays mining for a bit. I don't like that all too much :/. It's just doesn't seem good enough, especially when Blizz stated that Protoss was lacking in the harass departmnet.
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i think that us noobs have really shortsighted views tbh. I remember on SOTG the whole cast agreed that the oracle was pretty broken and being a sheep i agree but their points also make sense. there is no risk involved with the oracle and considering that you can only lift about 1 drone per pheonix before energy runs out how is the oracle less cost effective? Also all zergs, even at the lower leagues have learned to deal with void rays in the early game and 250 150 is a shit ton for a unit that pretty much just forces spore crawlers from the already double evo zerg. I do however agree that the limited utility of the oracle is a bummer but i think we will be able to cope once HOTS is released
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I don't care what anyone (Artosis) says, the fact that Blizz is planning on giving Protoss a mid-late game harassment unit that can't kill anything has made me lose interest in SC2 already. I've been playing/rooting for Protoss for 10 years and no matter how they balance the unit, without significant changes I just plain don't like the IDEA behind it. Flame me all you want but I think it's idiotic that the plan for the oracle is to strengthen timing attacks vs zerg and hinder mining. I mean, Terrans can send 15 SCVs with an all-in attack and recover from that just fine and continue playing.
So yeah, I freaking hate this unit and the entire thought process Browder explained behind the new Protoss units.
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Obviously a lot of people haven't explored Oracles in the HotS custom map yet. They're annoyingly good. A lot of people underestimate the sort of damage they can do, especially in conjunction with timing attacks or stuff like void ray/phoenix harass. 1 oracle can cause the opposing player to lose 500 minerals if left untouched. That's huge. Even if they react immediately, they already lost about 150 minerals.
Shutting down production buildings and tech as well as static defence in addition to economy harass makes the oracle unbelievably useful. As long as you have the apm to support it, the protoss economy can jump ahead of the opponents economy quickly. Plus it can stop gas mining...
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The OP has left out a very powerful mid-game push that will likely wreck any unprepared opponent.
Oracle/phoniex will negate early static defenses and basically force any decent player to turtle up once spotting stargates.
2 oracles/8 phoniex can strip a base clean of workers and with more phoneix, AA units will not fare any better.
Add in phase shifting the hydra den or cybercore and it could well be gg right there.
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On November 02 2011 13:58 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 13:50 Vindicare605 wrote:
Without getting in to why I like the Oracle. Can I ask you something?
Why is the Dark Templar not included in your list of Protoss Harassment options? It should be. But it's pretty simple: DT's are good if your opponent isn't prepared. Otherwise, they're expensive archons. Either way, they're not consistent harass options because your opponent will certainly be prepared the second time.
Storm drops are pretty good too.
Also, saying Terran always has vikings is annoying. Not everyone goes Colossus.
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On November 02 2011 14:44 bovineblitz wrote:
I don't care what anyone (Artosis) says, the fact that Blizz is planning on giving Protoss a mid-late game harassment unit that can't kill anything has made me lose interest in SC2 already. I've been playing/rooting for Protoss for 10 years and no matter how they balance the unit, without significant changes I just plain don't like the IDEA behind it. Flame me all you want but I think it's idiotic that the plan for the oracle is to strengthen timing attacks vs zerg and hinder mining. I mean, Terrans can send 15 SCVs with an all-in attack and recover from that just fine and continue playing.
So yeah, I freaking hate this unit and the entire thought process Browder explained behind the new Protoss units.
Its hilarious how you just ram that in there. "Blahblah blah Fuck the oracle! Terrans OP!"
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On November 02 2011 15:03 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 13:58 kcdc wrote:On November 02 2011 13:50 Vindicare605 wrote:
Without getting in to why I like the Oracle. Can I ask you something?
Why is the Dark Templar not included in your list of Protoss Harassment options? It should be. But it's pretty simple: DT's are good if your opponent isn't prepared. Otherwise, they're expensive archons. Either way, they're not consistent harass options because your opponent will certainly be prepared the second time. Storm drops are pretty good too. Also, saying Terran always has vikings is annoying. Not everyone goes Colossus.
Meh. Storm has been pretty bad since KA was removed. You don't see many PvT where P gets HT before colossi.
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What is the Dark Templar if not a land based harass unit?
I'm mildly fed up of topics like this which basically end up degenerating to being envious of a unit or option available to another race. The whole beauty of StarCraft is that there are three races that have different strengths and weaknesses and are played in different styles. What if all these threads ended up getting implemented... they may as well remove two races and then just force everything to become a mirror match up.
Warp Prism with gravitic drive outspeeds a Viking to counter one of your points and then that may force the Terran to leave Vikings over bases or build missile turrets, further more the argument that if scouted correctly they do little damage can be applied to every harass option for every race, I honestly can't think of one harassment option which if you see it coming still means you lose 10 workers!
Phoenixes are great when used properly, clearly they leave your defence a bit a weaker but this only means that you use it situationally rather than going, oh we seem to be about the same way in army / economy... better build some phoenixes! Plus they then also serve extra purposes in being able to pick off medivac drops or vikings/vacs in a bioball vs deathball PvT or buy a bit more time to get stalkers / archons in position by delaying mutalisks, I'd also like to add that once you've got those phoenixes unless you use them in a massive fight you should never lose them, they can easily run away from everything in the game.
Hopefully a few other people agree that each race is unique and should be played differently rather than each one having the same options open to it as every other race...
Edit: Also it's not even bloody released yet which is my favourite part, I've never used X in it's final form but I think it's bad anyway, as for the person who made that ridiculous statement about Terran being able to all in with 15 SCVs and then keep playing I would love, love to see these VODs. Sounds like he probably did significant damage with his all in to recover from losing that many workers!
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I think the void ray is pretty piss poor at killing drones, unless of course you manage to charge it up beforehand. It may pick off a few, but honestly by the time void rays arrive, a zerg on 2 base won't be too angry at losing 1 or 2 drones. The bigger concern is losing everything.
Honestly I think when void ray harass comes into play it's more around killing queens or an important structure, given the way they operate.
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Just some design thoughts about the oracle.
Given that Blizzard concept for the oracle is:
1.) Protoss need a harass unit
2.) Since there are many units in the game that kill workers already, Blizzard wants a form of harassment that doesnt kill workers.
3.) The new unit does not add to the Deathball
It would be nice instead of entomb, to give the Oracle Stasis field from Starcraft 1. Maybe make the stasis cells attackable with low hp. It keeps the "halting mining" concept alive without killing a single worker. It helps against timing pushes because stasis field, even if it has low hp cells, will help in battle. And it won't add significantly to the deathball because deathball is a late game composition. At late game, both the protoss ball and the opponent's ball has a huge dps spread. Since the stasis cells have low hp, they would be shattered instantly in a ball vs ball scenario. Like, a giant ball of marines get some of the forces stasised, the ball would just fire one volley, and all the shields would be shattered.
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On November 02 2011 12:55 kcdc wrote:
What Protoss needs is a land-based harassment unit that is available from the gateway or robotics facility and will have value in multiple dimensions of the game. We don't need another unit that encourages Zerg to take expansions or that leaves Protoss undefended against Terran and is shut down cold by vikings. I'd be thrilled if Protoss were given the hellion or reaper. But instead, Blizzard has offered us the phoenix 2.0.
I think this is the most important aka resume all. Protoss need a new basic, non spellish, non gimmicky unit, prolly raiding unit.
A few days ago WHITE-RA was asked in his stream about the patch, and i remember perfectly. He says:
"Blizzard is adding too many spells units. Sc is not an rts/rpg game (i think he refer to wc3), sc is strategic game. Protoss need a good basic gateway unit, like "the terrans have mariners".
I agree with both, kcdc, and white-ra.
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The oracle will only really be a successful solo harass unit in low level games where the victim isn't skilled enough to realize whats going on. High level games, I can see entomb being used to group workers for storm drops or sentry drops but nothing more. On the other hand, the ability to phase out buildings is going to be ridiculously strong. It'll make phoenix, voidray, warp prism, and dt harass a lot stronger, though granted it still is gas intense. But on top of better harass combos, the ability to stop entire types of units from zerg by disabling one building, if not all of them, or stopping ghost production from terran after a battle could be ridiculously strong if not broken. Imaging a 45 minute pvz where the protoss just built up enough oracles with enough energy to phase out the spawning pool, roach warren, hydra den, infestation pit, spire, and ultra cavern. We've seen the video from Blizzcon, the two oracles used the ability 4 times, thats at least 4 types of units the zerg can't produce. Disabling ghost production for a way of units could also be really strong. Remax with chargelot archon without them being able to produce ghosts could give you advantage you need.
So as far as I'm concerned, Blizzard really failed at giving protoss a solo harassment unit, though it could strengthen storm/sentry drops, and still managed to find a way to just make the deathball even stronger, by removing the opponents options to combat it.
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EPT
