I posted a thread a couple weeks ago with my gut reaction to the oracle's cost efficiency, but as many people noted, the costs can be tweaked. Lost in that thread were some more significant problems I see with the design of the unit. So I'd like to post an analysis that is dedicated to the more important aspects of the design. Apologies to those who feel they've already heard too much from me on the oracle. You don't have to read this.
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As Blizzard and the community are aware, Protoss presently lacks consistent economy harassment options. In Wings of Liberty, Protoss does have tools to kill workers, but these tools are often a large investment that is easily denied by the opponent when compared to the raiding options for Terran and Zerg. Currently, Protoss's best economy harassment options are:
-Phoenix: The Phoenix is excellent for scouting and killing workers, but because they can't shoot ground, you need 4+ phoenixes to harass which is a massive investment for a unit that can't damage buildings and has very little defensive value. Zerg typically responds to phoenixes by expanding and droning even harder since Protoss has very little ground force. Phoenixes are almost never used as a harass option against Terran because they leave Protoss without sufficient defense.
-Void ray: Void rays are decent harassment tools against Zerg because Zerg has limited early anti-air capabilities. Making a couple void rays allows Protoss to kill drones and overlords, and may do more significant damage if Zerg fails to respond properly. More importantly, the void rays provide excellent defensive value by shutting down early roach timing attacks, and if the void rays survive until late game, they are useful for killing corruptors and broodlords. Void rays are a multi-dimensional unit in PvZ, and because they allow economy raids while aiding defense and smoothing transitions, void ray openings are common against Zerg. Against Terran, void rays are sometimes used for early all-ins, but they have almost no combat value against marines, and are therefore rarely used beyond the early game against Terran.
-Warp prism + zealot or sentry or immortal: Warp prism harass is a low-cost alternative to stargate harass. While the stargate units allow a greater number of worker kills, the warp prism costs no gas and is available from the robo facility which churns out Protoss's best combat units. Because of its cost and placement in the tech tree, warp prisms can be incorporated into streamlined builds without significantly sacrificing core army strength. The downsides to the warp prism is that it does little damage because a good opponent will pull his workers away in time to avoid losing them. Against Terran, prisms have a limited window where they can harass effectively because Terran needs to get vikings in order to combat colossi. This means that Terran does not have to stray from his optimal strategy at all in order to shut down the harassment.
-Blink stalkers: Blink stalkers are really only a harassment unit in PvP (mirror design is another issue) and in PvT against macro-oriented siege tank strategies, but these strategies are rarely seen. Blink stalkers are often unable to retreat against stimmed marauders, speedlings or infestors, so the risk involved in blink stalker harass significantly outweighs the rewards.
-Dark templar: I don't really think DT's belong on this list because they are not consistent raiding options, but people have requested their inclusion. DT's can be used for early or mid-game cheese (more of a killing role than a harass role), but they do serve a harass role in late game, particularly against Zerg. DT's can absolutely be used effectively, but due to their cost, tech path, and how effectively they can be denied by a wary opponent, they are not among the best options for a Protoss player looking to apply constant pressure to slow his opponent's economy.
To summarize, stargate openings allow access to good scouting and economy raiding tools, but often leave Protoss without a strong enough army to defend or to punish extremely greedy play. Warp prisms can be efficiently incorporated into a build, but Protoss lacks units to drop that can actually kill workers, and because warp prisms are flying units, the height of their utility is short-lived against a Terran that wants to get vikings anyway.
Understanding the shortcomings of these raiding options, I was very excited to see what raiding tools Blizzard would offer Protoss in Heart of the Swarm. When I found out that it would likely be the oracle, I was disappointed on several levels.
-The oracle builds from the stargate. Protoss already has solid harassment options that build from the stargate. What strategic roles does the orcale fill for Protoss that aren't already filled by the phoenix and void ray? If I want a scout that denies Zerg some minerals, I can build a few phoenixes for a full scout, I'll get some drone and overlord kills, I might pick off a queen, and Zerg will build a handful of spore crawlers across his bases. I can pretty comfortably do 1,000+ minerals of damage between kills and forcing suboptimal responses.
Moreover, because the oracle builds from the stargate, it cannot be efficiently incorporated into the robo builds that need stronger harassment options.
-The oracle can't shoot and is one-dimensional. Even if the oracle is balanced in such a way that it surpasses the harassment value of the phoenix and void ray, it lacks even the limited combat utility of its stargate peers. If Protoss already can't afford to get phoenixes or void rays against Terran, how can we expect them to afford a dedicated harassment unit that offers even less defensive value? Moreover, unlike the void ray (or the banshee or mutalisk), the oracle is only capable of raiding, and cannot be recycled into other functions after the harass has been defended. The mark of a robust unit design (like the void ray) is that it retains its value in many roles and is over-powered in none of them. Because the oracle is exceptionally one-dimensional, its harassment ability needs to be extremely strong in order to justify its cost. Blizzard is painting itself into a corner where the oracle's single function will need to be overpowered in order to offset its failings across the board.
-The oracle, as prosposed at BlizzCon, is ridiculously expensive. Gas is the lifeblood of the Protoss force that allows sentries, colossi, archons, storm, void rays, stalkers, etc. Beyond the mid-game, minerals are largely a throw-away resource dumped on spawning zealots to distract the opponent or lines of cannons to shore up expansions. For the cost of an oracle, Zerg can afford an expansion, and because a Protoss that has built an oracle will have too little gas invested in their army, he will be unable to punish the Zerg's expansion. Compare this to a zealot drop which costs no gas, is available from a more streamlined tech path, and achieves the same purpose of preventing workers from mining at a mineral line until a force returns to the base.
What Protoss needs is a land-based harassment unit that is available from the gateway or robotics facility and will have value in multiple dimensions of the game. We don't need another unit that encourages Zerg to take expansions or that leaves Protoss undefended against Terran and is shut down cold by vikings. I'd be thrilled if Protoss were given the hellion or reaper. But instead, Blizzard has offered us the phoenix 2.0.
Very well written and well thought out. Seriously this is exactly how protoss players should all feel about any harassment that isn't lategame.
In a way I feel protoss is very strong lategame with its cost effective mineral sinks of zealots and warp prisms.
Only at this time is Protoss really able to keep an army that is able to defend (gas based in PvZ, large enough in PvT) while being able to send units out to attack and harass the opponent. However at this time its not really harassment that matters. It helps slow down the opponent and let you overtake them when a battle happens but it doesn't get you an advantage in the midgame.
Basically the way I see it is the following:
As protoss I feel that if I harass (not a timing, not using my whole army) it does nothing. Stalkers won't kill workers in a drop. Zealots will do little damage since they are slow and melee. Sentries, they might stop them from moving and then perhaps kill them? But the gas investment for them is so large if they die then Protoss has lost way too much.
No unit other than immortals in PvP is useful to drop in my opinion reliably or "safely"
Wow. An oracle discussion that actually has thought put into it.
And from my BlizzCon playtime, I have seen that oracles are only really effective mid to late game. There is no point to rush to them, they just don't do enough on their own. But combined with say a 3 gate zealot push, disabling a spawning pool could be pretty effective.
Against terran, yeah, they're useless early game. But they are actually useful to fuck their macro up if they can't pull units away to unlock the minerals, as in, you entomb the minerals and they can't reinforce, and if they pull marines to unlock them, then they can't hold the toss army.
It's just going to be a high skill-cap unit. Simple as that, tbh, from my experience.
I agree, I feel like the most glory this spell is ever going to see is like that of the overseer's Contaminate some use but ultimately not that amazing...
From a spectator's point of view, an oracle flying over a mineral line and covering them with stasis fields is perhaps the least exciting spell in the game.
On November 02 2011 13:50 Vindicare605 wrote: Without getting in to why I like the Oracle. Can I ask you something?
Why is the Dark Templar not included in your list of Protoss Harassment options?
It should be. But it's pretty simple: DT's are good if your opponent isn't prepared. Otherwise, they're expensive archons. Either way, they're not consistent harass options because your opponent will certainly be prepared the second time.
On November 02 2011 13:50 Vindicare605 wrote: Without getting in to why I like the Oracle. Can I ask you something?
Why is the Dark Templar not included in your list of Protoss Harassment options?
That is an entire tech path that needs dedication, nobody in their right mind would go DT vs terran unless they are cheesing for one game, its not a safe path. Against zerg, with the spore buff, they are good until spores come down, which is a commonplace reaction now and zergs just get an earlier evo for the upgrades. Dt's are great late game but they require huge investments and must pay off.
Dark Templars hinder the enemy expanding unless they invest in mobile detection.
How is that not economy harass?
And we already have threads on the Oracle.
I don't think: "nobody read my opinion (which I think is more valuable than everyone else's) so I'll make it a thread of it's own instead of replying to the existing threads" is a legitimate reason to make this a thread.
On November 02 2011 13:50 Vindicare605 wrote: Without getting in to why I like the Oracle. Can I ask you something?
Why is the Dark Templar not included in your list of Protoss Harassment options?
It should be. But it's pretty simple: DT's are good if your opponent isn't prepared. Otherwise, they're expensive archons. Either way, they're not consistent harass options because your opponent will certainly be prepared the second time.
Actually DT's are used a ton in late game, especially in pro games.
They are very useful for taking down expansions late game and general harrasing, their applications in early and mid game are risky and a gamble, but late game is a entire different story when you have a large bank and your opponent has alot of expansions.
On November 02 2011 13:50 Vindicare605 wrote: Without getting in to why I like the Oracle. Can I ask you something?
Why is the Dark Templar not included in your list of Protoss Harassment options?
It should be. But it's pretty simple: DT's are good if your opponent isn't prepared. Otherwise, they're expensive archons. Either way, they're not consistent harass options because your opponent will certainly be prepared the second time.
Well, I'd be prepared the second time for Prism drops, blink Stalkers, Phoenixes as well. Maybe DTs are little too expensive for their very brief effective timing, but they are as viable as any of the previous listed harass options you listed IMO.
That said though, DTs are often a lot more than a harass unit, and can effectively be game-ending, that's one of its major difference between the other options.
On November 02 2011 13:50 Vindicare605 wrote: Without getting in to why I like the Oracle. Can I ask you something?
Why is the Dark Templar not included in your list of Protoss Harassment options?
That is an entire tech path that needs dedication, nobody in their right mind would go DT vs terran unless they are cheesing for one game, its not a safe path. Against zerg, with the spore buff, they are good until spores come down, which is a commonplace reaction now and zergs just get an earlier evo for the upgrades. Dt's are great late game but they require huge investments and must pay off.
It is not an entire tech path. The tech path you're referring to is the Twilight Council -> Dark Shrine or Templar Archives. Either one of those also nets you Archons, DTs give you harassment options and map control and High Templar give you additional splash damage or feedback.
Not only that, but if you're going to argue the way they are about not being a true harassment option in case your opponent is prepared, well then you're opening a can of worms because the same can be said for every dedicated harassment unit.
Banshees should never bother researching cloaking because your opponent will just be ready for it,
Terrans should never use Reapers with the intention of anything other than scouting because your opponent will be ready for them.
Mutas should never be used to harass because they'll just die to Turrets and Photon Cannons.
Hellions should never bother researching Blue Flame, and besides who needs hellions when you have marines amirite?
You can't make a post like you're doing and then completely neglect various units for your own biased reasons. It's one great way to just have people ignore the entire content of your post without actually reading it and discussing it.
"-The oracle can't shoot and is one-dimensional. Even if the oracle is balanced in such a way that it surpasses the harassment value of the phoenix and void ray, it lacks even the limited combat utility of its stargate peers. If Protoss already can't afford to get phoenixes or void rays against Terran, how can we expect them to afford a dedicated harassment unit that offers even less defensive value? Moreover, unlike the void ray (or the banshee or mutalisk), the oracle is only capable of raiding, and cannot be recycled into other functions after the harass has been defended. The mark of a robust unit design (like the void ray) is that it retains its value in many roles and is over-powered in none of them. Because the oracle is exceptionally one-dimensional, its harassment ability needs to be extremely strong in order to justify its cost. Blizzard is painting itself into a corner where the oracle's single function will need to be overpowered in order to offset its failings across the board. "
It can fit in well with an army though, or in conjunction with an attack, espicially against zerg.
zergs replenish armies quickly with lings/roaches. Well while your attacking the front, the oracles go in, lock out the roach warnen/pool or any structure u want, and they CANNOT MAKE IT, thus limiting there ability to replace there army during/after the battle
I don't think it makes sense to discuss something like this without having played the actual game. The closest I've come is the HotS custom game, and oracles felt really fucking good, borderline broken. With a unit that has so many different abilities and so many potential uses, we can't really say too much about it. Even once the beta or even retail is out, everything will still be underexplored. Consider the hellion. There was a time in which people thought hellions were useless garbage.
Agree 100% with this post kcdc, this is exactly my thoughts on the Oracle. I think the idea of the Oracle is great but it doesn't fill the role that the Oracle is suppose to be: An early game cheep harassment unit that can scout.
On November 02 2011 14:09 SMD wrote: "-The oracle can't shoot and is one-dimensional. Even if the oracle is balanced in such a way that it surpasses the harassment value of the phoenix and void ray, it lacks even the limited combat utility of its stargate peers. If Protoss already can't afford to get phoenixes or void rays against Terran, how can we expect them to afford a dedicated harassment unit that offers even less defensive value? Moreover, unlike the void ray (or the banshee or mutalisk), the oracle is only capable of raiding, and cannot be recycled into other functions after the harass has been defended. The mark of a robust unit design (like the void ray) is that it retains its value in many roles and is over-powered in none of them. Because the oracle is exceptionally one-dimensional, its harassment ability needs to be extremely strong in order to justify its cost. Blizzard is painting itself into a corner where the oracle's single function will need to be overpowered in order to offset its failings across the board. "
It can fit in well with an army though, or in conjunction with an attack, espicially against zerg.
zergs replenish armies quickly with lings/roaches. Well while your attacking the front, the oracles go in, lock out the roach warnen/pool or any structure u want, and they CANNOT MAKE IT, thus limiting there ability to replace there army during/after the battle
Well to start with, Browder specifically said the goal of the oracle was for it not to be a combat unit that can be added to a Protoss death ball. So he doesn't want it to be like the Banshee at all in that regard.
However that doesn't mean that entomb is the only ability that's worth anything on the Oracle. The ability to shut down turrets and crawlers can be extremely helpful in upping the effectiveness of Protoss's other harassment options.
Imagine how good Phoenixes or Void Rays will be if you have an Oracle around that can disable crawlers and turrets for them.
Just because it's a support unit/raider doesn't mean it's entirely one dimensional.
I wasn't convinced by your first take on this subject matter. This draft is more detailed and articulate and I really appreciate the contribution...a solid meditation.
As far as entomb/mineral lock, I think you make a great point in noting that zealot drops already achieve this: zealots drop, zerg pulls drones, zerg kills zealots, droning resumes.
I like the oracle for its potential to phase out buildings. I think this could really help with tailoring responses to timing attacks against zerg. But I do agree that the cost of making this unit (I mean the cost as far as what you sacrifice in your main army) may be prohibitive to the extent that gas is necessary for our meatier units.
Why don't you wait until the units are released to complain. This is just a big theorycraft pile of garbage until then. 1 thread was enough, please at least try to contain your stupidity to the single thread so the rest of us can sift through less crap on TL.
On November 02 2011 14:09 SMD wrote: "-The oracle can't shoot and is one-dimensional. Even if the oracle is balanced in such a way that it surpasses the harassment value of the phoenix and void ray, it lacks even the limited combat utility of its stargate peers. If Protoss already can't afford to get phoenixes or void rays against Terran, how can we expect them to afford a dedicated harassment unit that offers even less defensive value? Moreover, unlike the void ray (or the banshee or mutalisk), the oracle is only capable of raiding, and cannot be recycled into other functions after the harass has been defended. The mark of a robust unit design (like the void ray) is that it retains its value in many roles and is over-powered in none of them. Because the oracle is exceptionally one-dimensional, its harassment ability needs to be extremely strong in order to justify its cost. Blizzard is painting itself into a corner where the oracle's single function will need to be overpowered in order to offset its failings across the board. "
It can fit in well with an army though, or in conjunction with an attack, espicially against zerg.
zergs replenish armies quickly with lings/roaches. Well while your attacking the front, the oracles go in, lock out the roach warnen/pool or any structure u want, and they CANNOT MAKE IT, thus limiting there ability to replace there army during/after the battle
Well to start with, Browder specifically said the goal of the oracle was for it not to be a combat unit that can be added to a Protoss death ball. So he doesn't want it to be like the Banshee at all in that regard.
However that doesn't mean that entomb is the only ability that's worth anything on the Oracle. The ability to shut down turrets and crawlers can be extremely helpful in upping the effectiveness of Protoss's other harassment options.
Imagine how good Phoenixes or Void Rays will be if you have an Oracle around that can disable crawlers and turrets for them.
Just because it's a support unit/raider doesn't mean it's entirely one dimensional.
This crap about not adding to the deathball is....crap. First, Protoss's deathball really isn't stronger than MMVG or infestor+broodlord, so it seems silly to focus on that issue. Second, the tempest is the perfect complement to a colossus deathball since it kills corruptors and vikings. So Blizzard is strengthening the deathball significantly--they're just not doing it with the oracle. It's sort of like how Blizzard said there were too many good ways to kill workers, but ignored that the best options belong to Terran and Zerg. Then they give Protoss a dedicated raiding unit that also can't kill workers.
IMO the oracle by itself isn't what's effective, it's combining things like the oracle's Econ harass with new abilities of the Nexus like the building turret spell. By giving Protoss a way to deny mining, and defend early pushes more easily, will change the current standards of PvX, especially PvZ, where counter attacks are becoming way more frequent.
I'm so tired I thought this thread was about the company Oracle, and they had some big project they were designing. Then I remembered the HOTS unit ;o.
The Oracle is kind of meh. Oo delays mining for a bit. I don't like that all too much :/. It's just doesn't seem good enough, especially when Blizz stated that Protoss was lacking in the harass departmnet.
i think that us noobs have really shortsighted views tbh. I remember on SOTG the whole cast agreed that the oracle was pretty broken and being a sheep i agree but their points also make sense. there is no risk involved with the oracle and considering that you can only lift about 1 drone per pheonix before energy runs out how is the oracle less cost effective? Also all zergs, even at the lower leagues have learned to deal with void rays in the early game and 250 150 is a shit ton for a unit that pretty much just forces spore crawlers from the already double evo zerg. I do however agree that the limited utility of the oracle is a bummer but i think we will be able to cope once HOTS is released
I don't care what anyone (Artosis) says, the fact that Blizz is planning on giving Protoss a mid-late game harassment unit that can't kill anything has made me lose interest in SC2 already. I've been playing/rooting for Protoss for 10 years and no matter how they balance the unit, without significant changes I just plain don't like the IDEA behind it. Flame me all you want but I think it's idiotic that the plan for the oracle is to strengthen timing attacks vs zerg and hinder mining. I mean, Terrans can send 15 SCVs with an all-in attack and recover from that just fine and continue playing.
So yeah, I freaking hate this unit and the entire thought process Browder explained behind the new Protoss units.
Obviously a lot of people haven't explored Oracles in the HotS custom map yet. They're annoyingly good. A lot of people underestimate the sort of damage they can do, especially in conjunction with timing attacks or stuff like void ray/phoenix harass. 1 oracle can cause the opposing player to lose 500 minerals if left untouched. That's huge. Even if they react immediately, they already lost about 150 minerals.
Shutting down production buildings and tech as well as static defence in addition to economy harass makes the oracle unbelievably useful. As long as you have the apm to support it, the protoss economy can jump ahead of the opponents economy quickly. Plus it can stop gas mining...
The OP has left out a very powerful mid-game push that will likely wreck any unprepared opponent.
Oracle/phoniex will negate early static defenses and basically force any decent player to turtle up once spotting stargates. 2 oracles/8 phoniex can strip a base clean of workers and with more phoneix, AA units will not fare any better.
Add in phase shifting the hydra den or cybercore and it could well be gg right there.
On November 02 2011 13:50 Vindicare605 wrote: Without getting in to why I like the Oracle. Can I ask you something?
Why is the Dark Templar not included in your list of Protoss Harassment options?
It should be. But it's pretty simple: DT's are good if your opponent isn't prepared. Otherwise, they're expensive archons. Either way, they're not consistent harass options because your opponent will certainly be prepared the second time.
Storm drops are pretty good too. Also, saying Terran always has vikings is annoying. Not everyone goes Colossus.
On November 02 2011 14:44 bovineblitz wrote: I don't care what anyone (Artosis) says, the fact that Blizz is planning on giving Protoss a mid-late game harassment unit that can't kill anything has made me lose interest in SC2 already. I've been playing/rooting for Protoss for 10 years and no matter how they balance the unit, without significant changes I just plain don't like the IDEA behind it. Flame me all you want but I think it's idiotic that the plan for the oracle is to strengthen timing attacks vs zerg and hinder mining. I mean, Terrans can send 15 SCVs with an all-in attack and recover from that just fine and continue playing.
So yeah, I freaking hate this unit and the entire thought process Browder explained behind the new Protoss units.
Its hilarious how you just ram that in there. "Blahblah blah Fuck the oracle! Terrans OP!"
On November 02 2011 13:50 Vindicare605 wrote: Without getting in to why I like the Oracle. Can I ask you something?
Why is the Dark Templar not included in your list of Protoss Harassment options?
It should be. But it's pretty simple: DT's are good if your opponent isn't prepared. Otherwise, they're expensive archons. Either way, they're not consistent harass options because your opponent will certainly be prepared the second time.
Storm drops are pretty good too. Also, saying Terran always has vikings is annoying. Not everyone goes Colossus.
Meh. Storm has been pretty bad since KA was removed. You don't see many PvT where P gets HT before colossi.
What is the Dark Templar if not a land based harass unit?
I'm mildly fed up of topics like this which basically end up degenerating to being envious of a unit or option available to another race. The whole beauty of StarCraft is that there are three races that have different strengths and weaknesses and are played in different styles. What if all these threads ended up getting implemented... they may as well remove two races and then just force everything to become a mirror match up.
Warp Prism with gravitic drive outspeeds a Viking to counter one of your points and then that may force the Terran to leave Vikings over bases or build missile turrets, further more the argument that if scouted correctly they do little damage can be applied to every harass option for every race, I honestly can't think of one harassment option which if you see it coming still means you lose 10 workers!
Phoenixes are great when used properly, clearly they leave your defence a bit a weaker but this only means that you use it situationally rather than going, oh we seem to be about the same way in army / economy... better build some phoenixes! Plus they then also serve extra purposes in being able to pick off medivac drops or vikings/vacs in a bioball vs deathball PvT or buy a bit more time to get stalkers / archons in position by delaying mutalisks, I'd also like to add that once you've got those phoenixes unless you use them in a massive fight you should never lose them, they can easily run away from everything in the game.
Hopefully a few other people agree that each race is unique and should be played differently rather than each one having the same options open to it as every other race...
Edit: Also it's not even bloody released yet which is my favourite part, I've never used X in it's final form but I think it's bad anyway, as for the person who made that ridiculous statement about Terran being able to all in with 15 SCVs and then keep playing I would love, love to see these VODs. Sounds like he probably did significant damage with his all in to recover from losing that many workers!
I think the void ray is pretty piss poor at killing drones, unless of course you manage to charge it up beforehand. It may pick off a few, but honestly by the time void rays arrive, a zerg on 2 base won't be too angry at losing 1 or 2 drones. The bigger concern is losing everything.
Honestly I think when void ray harass comes into play it's more around killing queens or an important structure, given the way they operate.
Just some design thoughts about the oracle. Given that Blizzard concept for the oracle is: 1.) Protoss need a harass unit 2.) Since there are many units in the game that kill workers already, Blizzard wants a form of harassment that doesnt kill workers. 3.) The new unit does not add to the Deathball
It would be nice instead of entomb, to give the Oracle Stasis field from Starcraft 1. Maybe make the stasis cells attackable with low hp. It keeps the "halting mining" concept alive without killing a single worker. It helps against timing pushes because stasis field, even if it has low hp cells, will help in battle. And it won't add significantly to the deathball because deathball is a late game composition. At late game, both the protoss ball and the opponent's ball has a huge dps spread. Since the stasis cells have low hp, they would be shattered instantly in a ball vs ball scenario. Like, a giant ball of marines get some of the forces stasised, the ball would just fire one volley, and all the shields would be shattered.
On November 02 2011 12:55 kcdc wrote: What Protoss needs is a land-based harassment unit that is available from the gateway or robotics facility and will have value in multiple dimensions of the game. We don't need another unit that encourages Zerg to take expansions or that leaves Protoss undefended against Terran and is shut down cold by vikings. I'd be thrilled if Protoss were given the hellion or reaper. But instead, Blizzard has offered us the phoenix 2.0.
I think this is the most important aka resume all. Protoss need a new basic, non spellish, non gimmicky unit, prolly raiding unit. A few days ago WHITE-RA was asked in his stream about the patch, and i remember perfectly. He says:
"Blizzard is adding too many spells units. Sc is not an rts/rpg game (i think he refer to wc3), sc is strategic game. Protoss need a good basic gateway unit, like "the terrans have mariners".
The oracle will only really be a successful solo harass unit in low level games where the victim isn't skilled enough to realize whats going on. High level games, I can see entomb being used to group workers for storm drops or sentry drops but nothing more. On the other hand, the ability to phase out buildings is going to be ridiculously strong. It'll make phoenix, voidray, warp prism, and dt harass a lot stronger, though granted it still is gas intense. But on top of better harass combos, the ability to stop entire types of units from zerg by disabling one building, if not all of them, or stopping ghost production from terran after a battle could be ridiculously strong if not broken. Imaging a 45 minute pvz where the protoss just built up enough oracles with enough energy to phase out the spawning pool, roach warren, hydra den, infestation pit, spire, and ultra cavern. We've seen the video from Blizzcon, the two oracles used the ability 4 times, thats at least 4 types of units the zerg can't produce. Disabling ghost production for a way of units could also be really strong. Remax with chargelot archon without them being able to produce ghosts could give you advantage you need.
So as far as I'm concerned, Blizzard really failed at giving protoss a solo harassment unit, though it could strengthen storm/sentry drops, and still managed to find a way to just make the deathball even stronger, by removing the opponents options to combat it.
Honestly, I'm interested in seeing the potential of the ability to "stun" buildings like FilmNoir above me. I'm not entirely sure of the duration or mechanics of it, but I could see this being a nice part of a timing attack for Protoss (i.e. stun a tech lab researching stim and then push or something). I fee like everyone has sort of ignored that aspect of the unit completely and what it is capable of. (theorycrafting begin!)
The defensive abilities of the oracle are interesting as well: let's say you open stargate and make one or two for harass after a FFE, and the zerg hits you with an all in. You can phase out some of the buildings in your wall to make them immune to damage (they still wall the zerg out however), and can be used as last ditch sentries in this scenario. You can also do that to really important tech structures when the enemy is about to kill them to give you more time to clean up a drop or something, like saving your twilight council or templar archives when terran does a marine/marauder drop.
It's not particularly good at defense, but it's not quite accurate to say that it's useless either.
I like to think of the ability to warp buildings out of existence as the primary advantage of the unit, with the spell to block mineral patches as icing on the cake.
Pre-ordain, from what I understand, gives you vision of the area around the structure as well for 2 whole minutes, so you can use the oracles as harassing observers without detection.
It would be great to see protoss get a gateway harass/worker killer. I completely agree with the OP. Anything dropped from a warp prism just doesn't kill workers fast enough or isn't safe enough to drop and be cost-efficient.
On November 02 2011 15:51 erazerr wrote: It would be great to see protoss get a gateway harass/worker killer. I completely agree with the OP. Anything dropped from a warp prism just doesn't kill workers fast enough or isn't safe enough to drop and be cost-efficient.
The replicant can be a harass unit, it won't be as good as having our own dedicated unit, but the versitility of it might be enough to justify the cost (especially considering how fast it builds). If terran makes reapers, banshees, hellions, or whatever else they want to harass with, they risk you copying those units and harassing him with it.
As a concept the oracle works, but in reality, especially as protoss, you can't waste gas to just deny a bit of mining against a good opponent. A marauder drop works because MMGV v P is a mineral reliant comp, you often see terrans get 2 orbitals running with 30+ scv's without getting a second gas. A zergling runby doesn't cost gas either, and ZvP is fairly gas dependant.
The oracle needs some way of helping protoss take a 3rd base, harass is nice, but if nothing comes of it, ultimately protoss is still behind because they've invested in dead end tech.
After killing 10 -15 workers with a banshee, the scariest time is the next 2-3 minutes, where the opponent has to decide whether he wants to all-in or not. After that time, you know you have a fairly decisive advantage provided you didn't cut workers, and you can throw down a 3rd fairly safely, because your opponent will have spent the time and money trying to recover economically while you try to get more ahead. The oracle as a harass unit neither allows you to secure a 3rd safely or deal enough economic damage to force an all-in. I might be wrong but losing half your workers to cloak banshee is worthy of an all-in, but losing half a base's income for the 15 seconds it takes to remove it isn't.
The oracle needs some defensive utility because without it, it's not a safe tech. No map control, no lasting economic damage. There's scouting, but unless stargate changes drastically, it's still very dead-end as far as mid-game transitions go.
On November 02 2011 12:55 kcdc wrote: What Protoss needs is a land-based harassment unit that is available from the gateway or robotics facility and will have value in multiple dimensions of the game. We don't need another unit that encourages Zerg to take expansions or that leaves Protoss undefended against Terran and is shut down cold by vikings. I'd be thrilled if Protoss were given the hellion or reaper. But instead, Blizzard has offered us the phoenix 2.0.
I think this is the most important aka resume all. Protoss need a new basic, non spellish, non gimmicky unit, prolly raiding unit. A few days ago WHITE-RA was asked in his stream about the patch, and i remember perfectly. He says:
"Blizzard is adding too many spells units. Sc is not an rts/rpg game (i think he refer to wc3), sc is strategic game. Protoss need a good basic gateway unit, like "the terrans have mariners".
I agree with both, kcdc, and white-ra.
I am definitely behind you on this one Belha, this is EXACTLY, how I feel about the Oracle. All of it really. The IDEA of getting a new totally gimmicky spellcaster is plain bad. Anyone that thinks this is cool is playing the wrong game, this is not WC3 or WoW, cut the crap with gimmicky spells. We need a basic unit, does it have to be flashy, no, just needs to fulfill it's purpose, shit it just needs to be useful.
On November 02 2011 13:50 Vindicare605 wrote: Without getting in to why I like the Oracle. Can I ask you something?
Why is the Dark Templar not included in your list of Protoss Harassment options?
It should be. But it's pretty simple: DT's are good if your opponent isn't prepared. Otherwise, they're expensive archons. Either way, they're not consistent harass options because your opponent will certainly be prepared the second time.
Until you use your oracle to disable his spore crawlers/turrets/cannons...
I am going to agree with kcdc for the most part, but that being said I am very interested in how the Oracle can be used in PvZ and potentially PvP, because those are the matchups where the oracle will definitely affect the most. PvZ timing push backed with an oracle to remove warren and pool from play, PvP timing where Oracle removes cybercore/robo etc. etc. My main concern with the Oracle is the seeming lack of utility against Terran. Planetaries/Turrets/Vikings/Sensor towers all significantly weaken the potential of the Oracle(assuming low life) and the potential targets for the phase shift against terran feel terrible. The only real significant targets may be a tech lab or an upgrade, whereas the zerg and protoss targets seem so much more juicy. kcdc also pointed out how vikings were a regular tech path due to colossus, however the Oracle is part of a tech path that protoss has to go out of his way to get and is countered by the regular tech path of terran. Right now I see the Oracle as a cool unit in PvZ and PvP, but it seems so useless in the PvT matchup
Good post as always kcdc, I generally agree with your points.
It would be nice if the Oracle had a proper defensive spell so it could make Stargate tech more viable, particularly in PvT. One thing I haven't seen too many people talk about is that the Oracle is roughly the speed of a Phoenix, so it might be able to prolong the viability of the Phoenix's harass by phasing out missile turrets and spores so the Phoenix can continue to lift workers. This is true of the Void Rays as well; the Oracle could phase out spores so the Void Rays could clean them up or kill Queen's or whatever.
On November 02 2011 14:07 Vindicare605 wrote: 1) It is not an entire tech path. The tech path you're referring to is the Twilight Council -> Dark Shrine or Templar Archives. Either one of those also nets you Archons, DTs give you harassment options and map control and High Templar give you additional splash damage or feedback.
2) Not only that, but if you're going to argue the way they are about not being a true harassment option in case your opponent is prepared, well then you're opening a can of worms because the same can be said for every dedicated harassment unit.
3) Banshees should never bother researching cloaking because your opponent will just be ready for it,
4) Terrans should never use Reapers with the intention of anything other than scouting because your opponent will be ready for them.
5) Mutas should never be used to harass because they'll just die to Turrets and Photon Cannons.
6) Hellions should never bother researching Blue Flame, and besides who needs hellions when you have marines amirite?
7) You can't make a post like you're doing and then completely neglect various units for your own biased reasons. It's one great way to just have people ignore the entire content of your post without actually reading it and discussing it.
Numbers were added so I can discuss point-by-point:
1) I think you're being intentionally facetious here, but I'll indulge. It obviously is an entire tech path and you can make expensive archons if you like, but it's suboptimal. There are researches available as well, which expand the utility of gateway units, or you can invest in HTs. Gateway units ofc struggle against Terran and HTs are stronger on three bases. DTs are better in the early game, which means that the Tier 3 twilight tech is strong at different stages of the game. It's not a big deal, but it is a huge investment.
2) I can't speak for docovc, but I don't think that was the point he was trying to make. He explicitly said that DTs work best when Terran's unprepared, and it's common that they have an e-bay but no missile turrets so it comes down to the scans. Zerg know that DTs are a threat so good players will have an evo chamber and perhaps even spores or go for an early lair so they can get overseers. As docvoc said, DTs are good late game PvZ despite zerg preparing for them earlier.
3) Banshees don't typically research cloaking because opponents must be ready for it otherwise they instantly lose the game. If your builds aren't prepared for Banshees, either by scouting or by detection, then you are taking a huge risk. Sometimes cloaking is researched, but it rarely covers its cost in damage done. The advantage gained is map control, which is a marginal advantage over the workers you were going to kill any way. The exception is of course TvT where you rely on scans until you can get turrets up. Another point to make about Banshees is that rushing to them opens up medivacs and additional harass options. Rushing to DTs allows you to research Blink, but you won't have stalkers yet because of the investment into Dark Shrine.
4) Yup, this is when Terrans use reapers. If a reaper can do any damage then this is a bonus and isn't expected. Stick them on watchtowers because they're not terribly useful now. This is why Protoss used to have to chronoboost stalkers before the reaper nerf; Zerg have queens out early enough to deal with reapers (typically); and terran deal with reapers using proper marine placement.
5) 2 base mutas are typically considered an ee han timing. This means they hit at a time where they have to do damage in order to justify delaying your expansion. They come out in ZvT after defeating a push, then they go chip away at workers. The main difference between mutas and DTs is that you can get about 30 mutas without gimping themselves and at this size they can harass bigger things and ignore base defenses. I would argue that DTs are also an ee han timing but are less versatile and if the opponent prepares for them in advance then Protoss loses the game.
6) As a result of the recent patch it takes 3 hellions with or without blue flame to kill a worker (except in TvT). So the only reason to research blue flame is to improve your effectiveness against the army.
7) I play random, so I hope my points come from a more neutral perspective. I honestly think that the Oracle looks interesting; the warp prism is a unique and powerful harass; and DTs are a viable harass. I also think that one or two base DTs are an ee han timing, but that you need to either squeeze in HTs or Colo as well on two or three bases. It's just an expensive tech route. I don't really like banshees either, particularly in comparison to blue flame hellions or even just marine drops. In fact, I just love dropships. For zerg, mutas and infestors are invaluable harass units and +2 bling drops on the mineral line are pretty disgusting. I wouldn't say that Protoss doesn't have harass options, but that DTs are one of the poorest harass options of the game's viable harass options. Hopefully my points were cogent!
Actually, from what I've gathered, the oracle is a really effective unit at the moment. In the HOTS mod its absolutely brutal and is one of the best new units in terms of usefulness.
I just find it boring as shit
Edit: and very annoying, a real pain in the ass to fight against
Just a thought... couldn't I just phase out the Hatch / Nexus / etc... and thereby prohibit mining in that location? Or doesn't the mechanic work like that?
Everyone talks about disabling spawning pools spires ect. but no one talks about disabling hatchs, can you disable hatchs with oracle cause that seems like the best target of all?
On November 02 2011 14:25 kcdc wrote:Second, the tempest is the perfect complement to a colossus deathball since it kills corruptors and vikings.
Ooooh.... I don't think so. The way they presented it, it's mostly a flying Thor, and It's gonna get kited by vikings and out-dpsed by corrupters (which are going to counter it as they do every capital ship).
On November 02 2011 15:56 Amui wrote: As a concept the oracle works, but in reality, especially as protoss, you can't waste gas to just deny a bit of mining against a good opponent. A marauder drop works because MMGV v P is a mineral reliant comp, you often see terrans get 2 orbitals running with 30+ scv's without getting a second gas. A zergling runby doesn't cost gas either, and ZvP is fairly gas dependant.
The oracle needs some way of helping protoss take a 3rd base, harass is nice, but if nothing comes of it, ultimately protoss is still behind because they've invested in dead end tech.
After killing 10 -15 workers with a banshee, the scariest time is the next 2-3 minutes, where the opponent has to decide whether he wants to all-in or not. After that time, you know you have a fairly decisive advantage provided you didn't cut workers, and you can throw down a 3rd fairly safely, because your opponent will have spent the time and money trying to recover economically while you try to get more ahead. The oracle as a harass unit neither allows you to secure a 3rd safely or deal enough economic damage to force an all-in. I might be wrong but losing half your workers to cloak banshee is worthy of an all-in, but losing half a base's income for the 15 seconds it takes to remove it isn't.
The oracle needs some defensive utility because without it, it's not a safe tech. No map control, no lasting economic damage. There's scouting, but unless stargate changes drastically, it's still very dead-end as far as mid-game transitions go.
You're making the assumption that a banshee harass will kill anywhere from 10-15 workers when 6 kills per banshee is considered to be cost effective, 10-15 is twice that. You're assuming that Banshee harassment is always that effective when in reality it isn't, even at the pro level pros will lose their banshees before hitting that 6 kill mark. You see it all the time in TvT.
Secondly, Protoss already have a gasless harassment option. Zealot/Prism drops cost ZERO gas. Even the Marine/Medivac Drop costs 100 gas per medivac, the Zealot/Prism drop only requires gas for the robotics facility and can be reinforced with stronger more expensive units if you catch your opponent dangerously out of position.
The Oracle is a compliment to other Protoss options. By itself it is still capable of shutting down mining and escaping. It moves as fast as a phoenix and can disable turrets on its way in or out. This means that as long as you keep the Oracle alive it can harass mineral lines all game for a single one time investment. On top of that its ability to shut down Turrets or Cannons makes it a great support unit to other harassment options like Zealot or DT drops/warps.
Honestly, I feel like people in this thread are looking at the Oracle in a vaccuum without even trying to consider how good it is when mixed with what Protoss already has. This is why the people that have used them in the HOTS mods are always impressed with how good they are. It's an underrated concept, I think it's worth giving a chance.
I agree with OP. When I saw the introduction of the the oracle I was like: even if this costs 100/100 I am not going to make it. A zealot drop is less expensive on gas, comes from a robo (which is more useful mid -late game, contrary to the expensive stargate tech) and costs no gas. It is more effective to drop lots then to use the oracle. Against terran stargate tech isn't really viable because it is hard to transition out of. That won't change with the oracle. Zergs are going to laugh when they see an orcale and are going to triple expand. The oracle harass options are really poor, Blizzard will nedd to buff it to make it WAY stronger. The ability to shut down a building could be strong tough.
On November 02 2011 14:57 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: The OP has left out a very powerful mid-game push that will likely wreck any unprepared opponent.
Oracle/phoniex will negate early static defenses and basically force any decent player to turtle up once spotting stargates. 2 oracles/8 phoniex can strip a base clean of workers and with more phoneix, AA units will not fare any better.
Add in phase shifting the hydra den or cybercore and it could well be gg right there.
With an attack like that, the choice is simple: counterattack. That's 1600m/1200g/24f of mostly harmless air units in the midgame you're talking about there (excluding pylons and stargate(s))..how much army bulk do you think that leaves you with if your opponent decides to counter? For reference, that's the entirety of 5-6 minutes of mining two gases, all sunk into air units without real DPS value,
Honestly this just seems like one of those cute things that work for a few weeks until people know what to look for, the same way you saw some tech timings early in SC2's life that went away as soon as people played against them more than twice.
Design of Oracle is quite interesting for me. What concerns me is the balance of this phasing out time. Right now 45s seems overpowered. And ofcourse it bothers me that Oracle can't attack. As a mid-late game unit maybe it'll make sense, but rushing to get them early doesn't seem viable as some people here stated. Protoss needs to get robo and another investment in stargate makes it hard to use Oracle early. Maybe some solution would be to transfer Oracle to Robo and adding a building that unlocks it? But on the other hand it's just adding another tech tree... I'm confused right now about this unit.
On November 02 2011 14:25 kcdc wrote:Second, the tempest is the perfect complement to a colossus deathball since it kills corruptors and vikings.
Ooooh.... I don't think so. The way they presented it, it's mostly a flying Thor, and It's gonna get kited by vikings and out-dpsed by corrupters (which are going to counter it as they do every capital ship).
They did say that the tempest is meant to be good against EVERY air unit, but especially against mutalisks. That to me means it might support a colossus army better than phoenixes or void rays.
On topic: i'm unsure about the Oracle. I think it's strength is more about the tech raiding ability than shutting down the minerals (although it will be hilarious to wait until terrans drop 10 mules on a gold, and then entombing it); i'm just not sure if p will be able to use it reliably, or if it will only be for some gimmicky gateway/stargate timing while you phase shift a roach warren or something. It doesn't seem such a bad unit, but i too wish we had an ability to reliably kill workers while not investing into something that's not our main army, like with a bio drop or speedling runby.
On November 02 2011 15:45 jsemmens wrote: Honestly, I'm interested in seeing the potential of the ability to "stun" buildings like FilmNoir above me. I'm not entirely sure of the duration or mechanics of it, but I could see this being a nice part of a timing attack for Protoss (i.e. stun a tech lab researching stim and then push or something). I fee like everyone has sort of ignored that aspect of the unit completely and what it is capable of. (theorycrafting begin!)
On November 02 2011 14:25 kcdc wrote:Second, the tempest is the perfect complement to a colossus deathball since it kills corruptors and vikings.
Ooooh.... I don't think so. The way they presented it, it's mostly a flying Thor, and It's gonna get kited by vikings and out-dpsed by corrupters (which are going to counter it as they do every capital ship).
They did say that the tempest is meant to be good against EVERY air unit, but especially against mutalisks. That to me means it might support a colossus army better than phoenixes or void rays.
On topic: i'm unsure about the Oracle. I think it's strength is more about the tech raiding ability than shutting down the minerals (although it will be hilarious to wait until terrans drop 10 mules on a gold, and then entombing it); i'm just not sure if p will be able to use it reliably, or if it will only be for some gimmicky gateway/stargate timing while you phase shift a roach warren or something. It doesn't seem such a bad unit, but i too wish we had an ability to reliably kill workers while not investing into something that's not our main army, like with a bio drop or speedling runby.
It has a range of 4. Vikings have a range of 9, and I believe a lot faster movement speed. The Tempest is going to be kited to death. Well unless it's accompanied by Phoenix. But I just don't see it being viable or useful anyway.
Personally the Oracle to me sounds like the only good unit (design wise) for Protoss in HotS. It feels like the only unit which should actually be worked on and improved to make it balance and viable.
The Replicant is gimmicky bullshit and I would have personally preferred an improved Carrier rather than the Tempest.
The difference between the oracle for harass and phoenix as far as a safe option to harass early is that you need to buy 3-4 in order to start doing effective damage. It's the 450-600 mins and the 300-400 gas that makes you so vulnerable.After the initial investment only 150/200 in the oracle, with even just 1 it will do reasonable damage. If the terran has his forces at his base then you can phase his gas and slow him down in a critical way. If he doesn't have many units in his base you can hit the minerals and make him take a rather large hit to his economy. The terran can ignore the mineral block, suffering more mineral damage and attack you, which you should be prepared for, or he can take units back and that is its own victory. Either way your oracle is almost guaranteed to live and almost guaranteed to do at least some damage, something most other harass forms can't be so sure of.
Then, going into the mid game, the oracle has synergy with a lot of other options for protoss. When you get observers, you know when you can safely hit with the oracle. If you get more stargate units, it will protect them from static D when you go on raids, same applies to DTs. I'm not certain how the oracle will interact with bunkers, but if it stops units in bunkers from firing (like it should), then it's a useful support caster for pushing terran as well.
I think that stargate openings will not only be viable(safe), but very potent against terran. Arc shield in particular will make it viable. The options terran will have to punish you when you hit them with a fast Oracle, will be mostly marine and marauder based. If they push out at you with those units, you could use void rays to defend against marauders and arc shield to defend against marines. And other than the oracle I think more lategame stargate play will be incorporated against terran in HotS. Phoenix/Colossus has been used before with somewhat mixed results from what i have seen, but I think the tempest is a vital inclusion here. Phoenix/colossus pushes terran into a heavy viking play, this is good for protoss because phoenix beat vikings, the problem being that the vikings can snipe the colossus all down before dying, but with tempest the vikings will lose the air battle much faster. The tempest even in a smaller number have a lot more synergy with protoss stargate units than the carrier did.
Kcdc is of course a much better player than I am, but I just don't agree with some of his assessments. If you want to harass your opponent early then i feel stargate will be the way to go.
The oracle looks great! It is not really noob friendly. that is why i might not use it. But i am really looking forward to see what pros can do with it. you can create your own timings by disabling structures.. and deny mining. its gonna be great. just a lot of nubs just feel dissapointed cuz it does not kill stuff.
On November 02 2011 13:50 Vindicare605 wrote: Without getting in to why I like the Oracle. Can I ask you something?
Why is the Dark Templar not included in your list of Protoss Harassment options?
It should be. But it's pretty simple: DT's are good if your opponent isn't prepared. Otherwise, they're expensive archons. Either way, they're not consistent harass options because your opponent will certainly be prepared the second time.
So I get it right? You want a unit that pulls off harass successfully even if the opponent is prepared, that demands a response from the opponent that is out of the way of his usual combat tech and that is located conveniently in your tech path so you don't have to specifically invest in harassment? Oh.. and it should also have some utility in other roles...
Tell me one unit that fullfils those criteria...
I guess they placed it on the stargate in order to encourage more stargate play beyond the '1 VR and 2-4 pheonix' vs Zerg.
FYI: Terran harassment isn't much better, when I 'analyze' it like you did: Banshee - Huge investment in tech that must pay off. Paperplane that adds little to our combat force apart from very specific timings. Hellions - Out of the way vs P, does not contribute to combat force, shut down by sim city, needs drops Medivac/Bio drops - Big investment, reduces the forces you have at home for defense, if your opponent is prepared, you lose the drop. Reapers - One dimensional, cost a ton of gas and take forever to build, easily shut down by warp in or speedlings
On November 02 2011 12:55 kcdc wrote: What Protoss needs is a land-based harassment unit that is available from the gateway or robotics facility and will have value in multiple dimensions of the game. We don't need another unit that encourages Zerg to take expansions or that leaves Protoss undefended against Terran and is shut down cold by vikings. I'd be thrilled if Protoss were given the hellion or reaper. But instead, Blizzard has offered us the phoenix 2.0.
I think this is the most important aka resume all. Protoss need a new basic, non spellish, non gimmicky unit, prolly raiding unit. A few days ago WHITE-RA was asked in his stream about the patch, and i remember perfectly. He says:
"Blizzard is adding too many spells units. Sc is not an rts/rpg game (i think he refer to wc3), sc is strategic game. Protoss need a good basic gateway unit, like "the terrans have mariners".
I agree with both, kcdc, and white-ra.
Yeah, agreed. I've said this before when Blizzard hinted at a specialist raiding unit for Protoss - basically, that thus far specialist raiding units in this game tend to get nerfed while Zerg and Terran are best at harass based on good use of their core units who are also useful in other ways. Therefore, a good unit that fulfilled that role would also have to meet the same criteria. That said, the Oracle may still be a useful and valuable addition to the Protoss arsenal - although if it is as good as people seem to suggest, I fear it being hit hard with the nerf hammer. This also assumes that as the game develops around all of the new units, Protoss will have the time and resources to actually build these units and to successfully use them.
However, I still dislike the unit. It seems to me cutesy, gimmicky and very un-Protoss like. I thought as much when I first saw the new units and felt it showed that no-one on the Blizzard design team seemed to play or love Protoss. Protoss are (or really were) the tough bastards of the Koprulu Sector and units like this seem to run counter to that. Sorry for the design whine, but I love my race and like many players who do, tend to identify with my race a little. I've loved Protoss ever since I took my first steps on Aiur way back in SC1 and made my way to Antioch to reinforce Fenix. So, it hurts a little when I see units like the Oracle (and the Replicant). Still, I should probably 'grow up' and get over it or something.
Anyway, to be fair, all this is a year or more away. So, I hope I am proved wrong and good things come of this unit (and others).
Take Zerg early game. Maybe I got me 2 bases, a spawning pool, and a roach warren. I drone drone drone while keeping an eye on the toss, generally trying to keep my units to a minimum to be able to out-econ you.
Just as you push out, you send out 2 Oracles (which are fast as phoenixes) and phase shift my roach warren and spawning pool. Voila - you have denied me ALL combat units for what, 45 seconds? Dunno the energy cost, but being fast as a phoenix, there is no way a queen will take it out before it does it again. I'd say this probably offsets the cost of the unit, big-time.
On November 02 2011 13:50 Vindicare605 wrote: Without getting in to why I like the Oracle. Can I ask you something?
Why is the Dark Templar not included in your list of Protoss Harassment options?
It should be. But it's pretty simple: DT's are good if your opponent isn't prepared. Otherwise, they're expensive archons. Either way, they're not consistent harass options because your opponent will certainly be prepared the second time.
Storm drops are pretty good too. Also, saying Terran always has vikings is annoying. Not everyone goes Colossus.
Meh. Storm has been pretty bad since KA was removed. You don't see many PvT where P gets HT before colossi.
It's not that storm is bad, it is more that it has too long of a ramp up time and costs too much early on in the game. You are looking at a 1k+min/1k+gas investment which leaves you with 2/3 storms and a tiny gateway army the moment Storm. You have no map presence and forced into an extremely defensive and fragile position.
Storm is good, but not good enough to cope with such resource a deficit so early on in the game. It feels like you have to be better than your opponent to make it work as there is no way for you to prod your opponent but he complete freedom to move around the map and poke you at will
When KA was in the game it was a completely different story. You could be soo much more aggressive.
What I'd give to have KA back Too bad it was broken as hell :/
I want to focus on this part of the OP, because I think kcdc has overlooked some very interesting possibilities the oravle offers.
On November 02 2011 12:55 kcdc wrote: -Phoenix: The Phoenix is excellent for scouting and killing workers, but because they can't shoot ground, you need 4+ phoenixes to harass which is a massive investment for a unit that can't damage buildings and has very little defensive value. Zerg typically responds to phoenixes by expanding and droning even harder since Protoss has very little ground force. Phoenixes are almost never used as a harass option against Terran because they leave Protoss without sufficient defense.
-Void ray: Void rays are decent harassment tools against Zerg because Zerg has limited early anti-air capabilities. Making couple void rays allows Protoss to kill a few drones and overlords, and may do more significant damage if Zerg fails to respond properly. More importantly, the void rays provide excellent defensive value by shutting down early roach timing attacks, and if they survive, they retain their use into late game by killing corruptors and broodlords. Void rays are a multi-dimensional unit in PvZ, and because they allow economy raids while aiding defense and smoothing transitions, void ray openings are common against Zerg. Against Terran, void rays are sometimes used for early all-ins, but they have almost no combat value against marines, and are therefore rarely used beyond the early game against Terran.
On November 02 2011 12:55 kcdc wrote: To summarize, stargate openings allow access to good scouting and economy raiding tools, but often leave Protoss without a strong enough army to defend or to punish extremely greedy play. Warp prisms can be efficiently incorporated into a build, but Protoss lacks units to drop that can actually kill workers, and because warp prisms are flying units, the height of their utility is short-lived against a Terran that wants to get vikings anyway.
Understanding the shortcomings of these raiding options, I was very excited to see what raiding tools Blizzard would offer Protoss in Heart of the Swarm. When I found out that it would likely be the oracle, I was disappointed on several levels.
Stargate openings are already amongst the the most popular PvZ openings, because they allow Protoss players to gain mapcontrol and get the occasional worker kill, besides forcing defenses (slowing down zerg) and a tech path zergs don't want to go (hydralisks) and sometimes just getting the Protoss ahead by denying a third base. From a zerg players perspective (me), I would compare them to hellion openings from terran. They pin you in your base. They force tech reactions. They keep you in the dark.
Usually those openings look like: Get 1-2 void rays and 3-5phoenix. Fly to the zerg base, try to deny a third, kill queens and drones, once they are safe kill overlords. Then reatreat, maybe use your phoenix for scouting, but that's it. Partly you also achieved that zerg can't go mutalisks anytime soon with this small phoenix fleet out on the field, so zerg can only go mutas if he can switch hardcore at once into them, which requires a real good economy and at least an even, or rather zergfavored army trade. But all in all, these air units become worthless after the initial harass.
Now blizzard adds the oracle, that can be combined with these openings! You get 1voidray, 3phoenix, do the usual harass and add 1-2 oracles. What the oracle can do initially is: phase out spores --> the harassment continues a little longer. phase out the hydra den/nydus --> the blindcounter hydra/nydus, hydra drop can easily be prevented/delayed. phase out the roach warren, pool, baneling nest --> expand again really early yourself
then, at the point when your air army usually becomes a glorified scouting tool: reveal zergs production (don't know for sure how this spell works) --> don't get caught so easily by tech switches after/during an army trade get that little bit of harass in by preventing/delaying mining with those highspeed oracles (no reason not to do it. there are hardly any risks included for the oracle, while zerg will just be missing 200-500minerals, with the currents oracle balancing, not to mention the multitasking and awareness a zerg needs, to kill those FFs fast when there is no alert!)
I think the real strength of the oracle lies in the amount of possibilities it offers. True that phasing out a building doesn't destroy it. True that preventing some minerals from being mined isn't a major problem for the zerg. But all those little things slow him down. All those little things are replenishable for no extra costs. And all those little things, lead to a better spread Protoss techwise. F.e: How many times have you seen Protoss (who didn't open stargate) reacting to broodlords with mass blink stalkers and zerg just built more broodlords until broodlords just kill blink stalkers in direct engagements with no/little support? But if building oracles becomes a viable strategy, you will always have that startport to build void rays or phoenix vs broodlords. (like terrans, that always have the factory, the starport and baracks against lategame zerg, because you need all techs to be able to react to all techs)
Furthermore I want to talk about this:
On November 02 2011 12:55 kcdc wrote: What Protoss needs is a land-based harassment unit that is available from the gateway or robotics facility and will have value in multiple dimensions of the game. We don't need another unit that encourages Zerg to take expansions or that leaves Protoss undefended against Terran and is shut down cold by vikings. I'd be thrilled if Protoss were given the hellion or reaper. But instead, Blizzard has offered us the phoenix 2.0.
Protoss has a harass unit (DT) on the gateway and one at the robotics (Warp Prism). It's rather that due to warp gate rushes, and due to the overall greatness of robotics tech (best detector in the game, best artillery unit in the game, good vs armored/tanking unit), neither of those tech paths can really get a faster available harass unit. 4gate rush with mass reaper? We had that. It was called 6rax reaper and led to nerfing the reaper into oblivion. Now if you wanted to give Protoss a "reaper unit", available of the cybercore, the first thing to do would be to nerf it further, because it would mass spawn all around the opponents base (warp gate). But not only that: Gateway is a complete tech path. It has tank units (archons, zealots), antiair units (stalkers), casters (sentry/templar), damage dealers (zealot, templar, archon), mineraldump units (zealot), harass units (stalker, dt). Baracks is not. (you need a starport for medivacs, vikings to deal with colossi; not to mention that pure baracks composition are not playable in lategame TvT and ZvT; gateway compositions are, at least with observer support), so you got yourself another nerf on your reaper unit. Then there is the upgrade difference in Protoss and Terrans (Terrans have to focus on upgrades, Protoss get them for every unit), which makes gateway units easily combinable with robo tech. Your next nerf...
But I don't want to be completly unrealistic and say, that Protoss ground can't get another harass unit. But I don't think it could be any better in terms of harassment than a phoenix, rather worse. (also for the robotech harassment: rush robo, build a warp prism and drop/warp in zealots. But this already seems unavailable as fast harass option, even with the warp prism being an air unit and this harass not costing any gas, so I guess any other robo harass unit couldn't hit earlier)
the idea is "ok" for me, but what I dislike is that blizzard said that they already have units that kill worker fast, so they don't want to add anything else. Well, non of these units are protoss units ..
But not only that: Gateway is a complete tech path. It has tank units (archons, zealots), antiair units (stalkers), casters (sentry/templar), damage dealers (zealot, templar, archon), mineraldump units (zealot), harass units (stalker, dt). Baracks is not.
As opposed to
Tank units (Marauders), antiair units (Marines, Ghosts), Casters (Ghosts), Damage Dealers (Marines,Marauders), mineral dump units (Marines), harass units (Marines, Marauders) ??
At least Protoss requires heavy investment into tech. Marines, Marauders and Ghosts are all available very early on in the game.
On November 02 2011 12:55 kcdc wrote: ....Protoss presently lacks consistent economy harassment options..... ....The oracle builds from the stargate. Protoss already has solid harassment options that build from the stargate.
I'd agree with the second quote of you... Protoss has insanely good harrassment: Phoenix are not only fast, can kill overlords, give you a direct counter to Mutas, but in large numbers, they also totally destroy Hydras. Absolutely solid harrassment-Unit that can be mixed into almost any timing-attack/army-composition, at least in ZvP.
then they also have Blinkstalkers, VR's (yes, current 1-stargate-builds don't work that well anymore to snipe Zerg hatches, but there are still lots of options for the VR to be abused), warp-in's (yes, this can be used very well for harrassment), Warp-Prism, DT's, Storm-Drops and recall, which can be used both offensively or defensively. Protoss actually has incredible harrassment-options on basically all techpaths and I don't understand all the whining.
On November 02 2011 12:55 kcdc wrote:-The oracle can't shoot and is one-dimensional.
The Oracle is actually the most versatile Unit to be in SC2. If you still don't get that, even after I've postet like 5+ posts on the versatile usages of the Oracle, just go back and read in the oracle-related threads where you've also posted quite a bit.
On November 02 2011 12:55 kcdc wrote:The oracle, as prosposed at BlizzCon, is ridiculously expensive.
Even if this is true, there would be absolutely no Problem with that, cuz Blizzard could easily balance that aspect of the Unit. As of yet, it's only about the core principle of the Unit, everything else is futile to discuss now.
On November 02 2011 12:55 kcdc wrote:What Protoss needs is a land-based harassment unit that is available from the gateway or robotics facility and will have value in multiple dimensions of the game. We don't need another unit that encourages Zerg to take expansions or that leaves Protoss undefended against Terran and is shut down cold by vikings. I'd be thrilled if Protoss were given the hellion or reaper. But instead, Blizzard has offered us the phoenix 2.0.
Why does Protoss NEED that Unit? So that it has the exact same options as Terran? And if you say that your harrassment-Unit gets shut down by Vikings, how will Terran Drop you if you have phoenix around? Or why do you think Hellions is such a good harrassment-unit? Cuz they get dropped? Well, read one line above and counter the drop. Any other Hellion-harrass can be denied by building-placement and a few Units. I remember the good old SCBW-days, where ppl actually knew how to prevent Vultures from just cruising all around the map, but I guess ppl have forgotten about that...
And if you are sad about Zerg taking another expansion cuz of your phoenix-harrass, take one yourself or go for a timing-attack after heavily crippling his eco.
I'm almost 100% sure that no1 that understands MU's like ZvP and TvP will have the slightest doubt that the Oracle could be an extremely powerful Unit, even though it may not be the best harrassment-unit in terms of limiting the ressource-gathering.
IMHO, ppl focus too much on the entomb-ability, this one to me is basically a energy-sink if theres no real use for phase shift or at least VERY situational. The real star and the ability which opens up a vast amount of strategic options is phase-shift. Why do you need to kill the Zergs workers or deny hatches when you can prevent him from building ANY units for a huge amount of time? Or why would wou wan't like 1 Collossus more in battle, when you can prevent Zerg from reinforcing their army? Besides that, the oracle has amazing synergies with the ability for the toss for strong timing-attacks and with basically any unit the Protoss can produce, best example - DT's or Phoenix. Why another harrass-Unit when the oracle supports the other Options so well, its worth much more than a simple reaper/hellion-clone?
The Oracle is one of the most interesting, versatile and potentially skill-rewarding Units and anybody who doesn't get that, should just play Terran.... I'm actually thinking about switching to Toss, just because the Oracle looks to be so amazing to me.
But not only that: Gateway is a complete tech path. It has tank units (archons, zealots), antiair units (stalkers), casters (sentry/templar), damage dealers (zealot, templar, archon), mineraldump units (zealot), harass units (stalker, dt). Baracks is not.
As opposed to
Tank units (Marauders), antiair units (Marines, Ghosts), Casters (Ghosts), Damage Dealers (Marines,Marauders), mineral dump units (Marines), harass units (Marines, Marauders) ??
Read the full comment. Also Marauders aren't tank units. They have 125life for 100/25 costs. Stimmed they have 105life. Zealots have 150life, 50 in shields and cost 100 (also lesser passive costs, because they don't require tech labs).
Marauder are tank units with medivac support, which are no baracks unit. Also Marines and Marauders are no harass units. Marine/Marauder drops are, which again requires a Starport.
Good luck playing Marine/Marauder/Reaper/Ghost, without medivacs and vikings in any match up.
But not only that: Gateway is a complete tech path. It has tank units (archons, zealots), antiair units (stalkers), casters (sentry/templar), damage dealers (zealot, templar, archon), mineraldump units (zealot), harass units (stalker, dt). Baracks is not.
As opposed to
Tank units (Marauders), antiair units (Marines, Ghosts), Casters (Ghosts), Damage Dealers (Marines,Marauders), mineral dump units (Marines), harass units (Marines, Marauders) ??
Read the full comment. Also Marauders aren't tank units. They have 125life for 100/25 costs. Stimmed they have 105life. Zealots have 150life, 50 in shields and cost 100 (also lesser passive costs, because they don't require tech labs).
Marauder are tank units with medivac support, which are no baracks unit. Also Marines and Marauders are no harass units. Marine/Marauder drops are, which again requires a Starport.
Good luck playing Marine/Marauder/Reaper/Ghost, without medivacs and vikings in any match up.
There are timings in TvP where you go for ghosts before startport
Hi Kcdc. Its a pretty good post as your kind of known for with some logic behind.
Originally I had some of the same throughts as you, but lately I kinda changed my mind. The oracle in a vacuum is IMO a very funny unit to use. I had almost the time of my life using it together with warp prism in a pvz. A lot of multitasking is definitely required though and I would not suspect players below diamond to be very fond of it, however from a design perspective this isn't the biggest concern.
I do however agree that the introduction of the oracle and the tempest creates some problems with the protoss units as a whole, as each individual units need to have a certain role in the game. I do think the oracle has a clear role (used for mid/late game harass/scouting), but the phoenix on the other hand is kinda overshadowed in this way. Against mutalisk the tempest is better. Picking up siege tanks is not a good idea in HOTS as terrans almost always will have warhounds in their unit mix when going mech vs protoss. And while you to some extent probably still can open VR/phoenix for harass vs zerg, this role for the phoenix is imo just too specialised. It really needs to have a role in the later stages of the game. However for harassment in the midgame the oracle just seems like a better choice (obv. as you point out, since this unit cant be use in combat it has to be stronger when harassing than the phoenix is when harassing).
But the oracle it self (as I previously has stated) is just a really fun unit and isn't a problem in it self. I just feel like the protoss air units should be completely redesigned (esp. phoenix + tempest, vr is decent i think though its not that fun of a unit IMO) to make them work better with the protoss race.
Here is a suggestion that might make protoss air openings viable in most MU: - Slight decrease of stargate cost. - Lower the cost of phoenix. - Increase the AA range of phoenix by 0.5 (to make it slightly easier to kite mutas), and balance other stats. - Remove tempest. bring back carrier.
This way opening up phoenix for scouting + harass will be a cheaper option, and they will be better against mutas in the later stages of the game, though you still need a lot of micro to beat a huge group of mutas. The role of the carrier should be an anti ground unit.
But not only that: Gateway is a complete tech path. It has tank units (archons, zealots), antiair units (stalkers), casters (sentry/templar), damage dealers (zealot, templar, archon), mineraldump units (zealot), harass units (stalker, dt). Baracks is not.
As opposed to
Tank units (Marauders), antiair units (Marines, Ghosts), Casters (Ghosts), Damage Dealers (Marines,Marauders), mineral dump units (Marines), harass units (Marines, Marauders) ??
Read the full comment. Also Marauders aren't tank units. They have 125life for 100/25 costs. Stimmed they have 105life. Zealots have 150life, 50 in shields and cost 100 (also lesser passive costs, because they don't require tech labs).
Marauder are tank units with medivac support, which are no baracks unit. Also Marines and Marauders are no harass units. Marine/Marauder drops are, which again requires a Starport.
I was hoping you would see how ignorant your argument is by by pointing out something in such a ridiculous fashion.
EDIT: I'm just going to make this simple.
Marines, Marauders, Stim, Combat Shield, Concussive Shell, Ghosts and Reapers are all T 1.5 Tech, but Templars, Archons, DT's, Blink and Charge are not. Terrans OFTEN tech safely to Starport tech on a SINGLE base where as Protoss can barely even tech to Templars on two.
Hell, by the time Protoss actually manages to get everything needed it is usually 20mins+ into the game on 3/4 bases.
Different races are different and you cannot simply compare something that comes out of a barracks to something that comes out of a Gateway because Protoss and Terran ARE NOT THE SAME
And when was the last time you have seen a Protoss win without Colossus? The unit is a necessity
Reavers is what we need. They come from the robo, they're great harassers, they do have a role in any army, don't slow down the important robo tech like stargate does,... it would be perfect.
people always forget about the stalker, the poor poor stalker. I generally find that the stalker is the best protoss harassing unit... hmm my weird oppinion (playing super non-standard since 1995).
I like the fact that if you have an oracle or two you can totally punish someone for moving out. Just imagine terran has sent all his units to your base, ready to reinforce, but your oracles would be all like: hell nooooo and can completely prohibit the terran from mining or producing anything at all.
Pretty much, kcdc is right. Of course, it's very hard to read and understand a few paragraphs of text, judging by all the posters who managed to produce huge responses without addressing the main point at all. So allow me to make this short and simple for you guys.
Kcdc is not saying the Oracle is bad, or useless. Truthfully, it takes a lot of effort to design a completely useless unit. The Oracle does present some interesting options, and it will almost surely be used in its current incarnation. The point is, it is not what Protoss needs.
Some of you have posted stuff akin to "Well, if you phase out the Roach Warren/Pool as your timing attack hits, it's going to be so powerful!". Do you really think it's good for Protoss to have even more powerful timings? Is that a good thing for the race, and for the game? Think about it.
And others have suggested ways in which the Oracle synergises with other Protoss harassment options. Phasing out static defense to make way for Phoenix or DTs, and so forth. However, these are all distinctly late game options, because earlier on they will make you die to a counter attack. Protoss harassment is fine late game, it doesn't need another expensive paperweight to do cute stuff with.
In any case, if HotS is supposed to add units that shore up weaknesses of the races, then the Terran and Zerg units do make sense in this context. Terran units serve to make mech a viable playstyle in all matchups, for example by giving Hellions the option to act as proper meatshields for Tanks. Zerg units allow them to break entrenched positions more easily, and generally achieve pressure without sacrificing tons of units. In light of this, the new Protoss units are a total joke, they don't solve Protoss problems at all. Well, you can Replicate a Siege Tank and maybe defend 1/1/1, so that's nice I suppose. :/
Well isn't the arc shield and recall supposed to help out with the lack of defensive for going air? I think you are right on some levels but I think a flying harassment unit is cool. If there was a cliff hopping raider unit from a robotics that didn't add to the death ball like a reaper does would be better, but think about arc shield as well.
But not only that: Gateway is a complete tech path. It has tank units (archons, zealots), antiair units (stalkers), casters (sentry/templar), damage dealers (zealot, templar, archon), mineraldump units (zealot), harass units (stalker, dt). Baracks is not.
As opposed to
Tank units (Marauders), antiair units (Marines, Ghosts), Casters (Ghosts), Damage Dealers (Marines,Marauders), mineral dump units (Marines), harass units (Marines, Marauders) ??
Read the full comment. Also Marauders aren't tank units. They have 125life for 100/25 costs. Stimmed they have 105life. Zealots have 150life, 50 in shields and cost 100 (also lesser passive costs, because they don't require tech labs).
Marauder are tank units with medivac support, which are no baracks unit. Also Marines and Marauders are no harass units. Marine/Marauder drops are, which again requires a Starport.
I was hoping you would see how ignorant your argument is by by pointing out something in such a ridiculous fashion.
EDIT: I'm just going to make this simple.
Marines, Marauders, Stim, Combat Shield, Concussive Shell, Ghosts and Reapers are all T 1.5 Tech, but Templars, Archons, DT's, Blink and Charge are not. Terrans OFTEN tech safely to Starport tech on a SINGLE base where as Protoss can barely even tech to Templars on two.
Hell, by the time Protoss actually manages to get everything needed it is usually 20mins+ into the game on 3/4 bases.
Different races are different and you cannot simply compare something that comes out of a barracks to something that comes out of a Gateway because Protoss and Terran ARE NOT THE SAME
And when was the last time you have seen a Protoss win without Colossus? The unit is a necessity
We are talking about starcraft and not C&C, try again with a better argument. In C&C T3>T2>T1. In Starcraft not. All those Tier 1,2,3 arguments are just simplyfications to make talking about implied tech (costs) and time to get the tech out simpler. Example: + Show Spoiler +
150/0+150/100+150/100+50/25+150/150 = 650/375 are the passive costs for a battlecruiser. 250/0+150/100+150/100+250/200+100/150 = 900/550 are the passive costs for a broodlord. If we define battlecruiser as T3, then broodlords are T5.
But that's really not very useful when talking about nonmirror matchups. As long as you don't build Colossi, Templar or Carriers, "T1" Marines counter every protoss unit, no matter what "tier" they are. (I'm not saying that one can't rely on defensive mechanisms like FFs against them! But in direct engagments the marine wins) Just think about Mech ("T2" and "T3" mixture) in PvT and Bio ("T1" and "T2" mixture). Guess which one has proven to be playable and which hasn't?
On November 02 2011 21:15 Toadvine wrote:In any case, if HotS is supposed to add units that shore up weaknesses of the races, then the Terran and Zerg units do make sense in this context. Terran units serve to make mech a viable playstyle in all matchups, for example by giving Hellions the option to act as proper meatshields for Tanks. Zerg units allow them to break entrenched positions more easily, and generally achieve pressure without sacrificing tons of units. In light of this, the new Protoss units are a total joke, they don't solve Protoss problems at all. Well, you can Replicate a Siege Tank and maybe defend 1/1/1, so that's nice I suppose. :/
HotS is not supposed to do anything but sell well for blizzard. If you argue that further, it means that it should be interesting to buy it, so the game should be fun to play and balanced on high level of play. What the game doesn't need, is 3races that all have no weaknesses and play similar.
Zergs and Terrans also don't just get units that counteract weaknesses that are intended to be there. But Mech was intended to be playable in TvP, giving them battlehellions and warhounds might fix that. Mass Thor in ZvT wasn't intended to be playable, that's why the Thor has to go and make space for a unit that is worse vs roaches. And Zerg was intended to be one of the more aggressive races. In the alpha and beta days when people weren't that great at that game, the general opinion was that zerg was THE pressuring race, running all over the place and denying expos. Protoss was intended to work well on Stargate tech, that's why they are trying to fix that with oracles and tempests. Also, Protoss ground tech gets HUGE buffs through the mass recall. Like artosis said: In the current state of the game, he would ALWAYS build an extra Nexus just to have ONE mass recall, because then he could just be out on the map and harass the hell out of everything, for 400 extra minerals...
But not only that: Gateway is a complete tech path. It has tank units (archons, zealots), antiair units (stalkers), casters (sentry/templar), damage dealers (zealot, templar, archon), mineraldump units (zealot), harass units (stalker, dt). Baracks is not.
As opposed to
Tank units (Marauders), antiair units (Marines, Ghosts), Casters (Ghosts), Damage Dealers (Marines,Marauders), mineral dump units (Marines), harass units (Marines, Marauders) ??
Read the full comment. Also Marauders aren't tank units. They have 125life for 100/25 costs. Stimmed they have 105life. Zealots have 150life, 50 in shields and cost 100 (also lesser passive costs, because they don't require tech labs).
Marauder are tank units with medivac support, which are no baracks unit. Also Marines and Marauders are no harass units. Marine/Marauder drops are, which again requires a Starport.
I was hoping you would see how ignorant your argument is by by pointing out something in such a ridiculous fashion.
EDIT: I'm just going to make this simple.
Marines, Marauders, Stim, Combat Shield, Concussive Shell, Ghosts and Reapers are all T 1.5 Tech, but Templars, Archons, DT's, Blink and Charge are not. Terrans OFTEN tech safely to Starport tech on a SINGLE base where as Protoss can barely even tech to Templars on two.
Hell, by the time Protoss actually manages to get everything needed it is usually 20mins+ into the game on 3/4 bases.
Different races are different and you cannot simply compare something that comes out of a barracks to something that comes out of a Gateway because Protoss and Terran ARE NOT THE SAME
And when was the last time you have seen a Protoss win without Colossus? The unit is a necessity
We are talking about starcraft and not C&C, try again with a better argument. In C&C T3>T2>T1. In Starcraft not. All those Tier 1,2,3 arguments are just simplyfications to make talking about implied tech (costs) and time to get the tech out simpler. Example: + Show Spoiler +
150/0+150/100+150/100+50/25+150/150 = 650/375 are the passive costs for a battlecruiser. 250/0+150/100+150/100+250/200+100/150 = 900/550 are the passive costs for a broodlord. If we define battlecruiser as T3, then broodlords are T5.
But that's really not very useful when talking about nonmirror matchups. As long as you don't build Colossi, Templar or Carriers, "T1" Marines counter every protoss unit, no matter what "tier" they are. (I'm not saying that one can't rely on defensive mechanisms like FFs against them! But in direct engagments the marine wins) Just think about Mech ("T2" and "T3" mixture) in PvT and Bio ("T1" and "T2" mixture). Guess which one has proven to be playable and which hasn't?
Seriously? You harp on like one part of one line as my "argument"? I just used Tiers as an easy way to explain the relative timings.
The part where I explain how Terran often get to Starport tech one a single base where as Protoss generally only get to Templar by 3bases should have been enough.
And your use of Tiers is just as awful. That isn't even what I meant
But what does it matter than Mech hasn't been proven vs Protoss? Terran have a viable way to play that is extremely effective .
The point still stands, races aren't the same, you can't compare anything that comes from the barracks to anything that comes from the gateway, that isn't how the game is built
But not only that: Gateway is a complete tech path. It has tank units (archons, zealots), antiair units (stalkers), casters (sentry/templar), damage dealers (zealot, templar, archon), mineraldump units (zealot), harass units (stalker, dt). Baracks is not.
As opposed to
Tank units (Marauders), antiair units (Marines, Ghosts), Casters (Ghosts), Damage Dealers (Marines,Marauders), mineral dump units (Marines), harass units (Marines, Marauders) ??
Read the full comment. Also Marauders aren't tank units. They have 125life for 100/25 costs. Stimmed they have 105life. Zealots have 150life, 50 in shields and cost 100 (also lesser passive costs, because they don't require tech labs).
Marauder are tank units with medivac support, which are no baracks unit. Also Marines and Marauders are no harass units. Marine/Marauder drops are, which again requires a Starport.
I was hoping you would see how ignorant your argument is by by pointing out something in such a ridiculous fashion.
EDIT: I'm just going to make this simple.
Marines, Marauders, Stim, Combat Shield, Concussive Shell, Ghosts and Reapers are all T 1.5 Tech, but Templars, Archons, DT's, Blink and Charge are not. Terrans OFTEN tech safely to Starport tech on a SINGLE base where as Protoss can barely even tech to Templars on two.
Hell, by the time Protoss actually manages to get everything needed it is usually 20mins+ into the game on 3/4 bases.
Different races are different and you cannot simply compare something that comes out of a barracks to something that comes out of a Gateway because Protoss and Terran ARE NOT THE SAME
And when was the last time you have seen a Protoss win without Colossus? The unit is a necessity
We are talking about starcraft and not C&C, try again with a better argument. In C&C T3>T2>T1. In Starcraft not. All those Tier 1,2,3 arguments are just simplyfications to make talking about implied tech (costs) and time to get the tech out simpler. Example: + Show Spoiler +
150/0+150/100+150/100+50/25+150/150 = 650/375 are the passive costs for a battlecruiser. 250/0+150/100+150/100+250/200+100/150 = 900/550 are the passive costs for a broodlord. If we define battlecruiser as T3, then broodlords are T5.
But that's really not very useful when talking about nonmirror matchups. As long as you don't build Colossi, Templar or Carriers, "T1" Marines counter every protoss unit, no matter what "tier" they are. (I'm not saying that one can't rely on defensive mechanisms like FFs against them! But in direct engagments the marine wins) Just think about Mech ("T2" and "T3" mixture) in PvT and Bio ("T1" and "T2" mixture). Guess which one has proven to be playable and which hasn't?
Seriously? You harp on like one part of one line as my "argument"? I just used Tiers as an easy way to explain the relative timings.
The part where I explain how Terran often get to Starport tech one a single base where as Protoss generally only get to Templar by 3bases should have been enough.
And your use of Tiers is just as awful. That isn't even what I meant
But what does it matter than Mech hasn't been proven vs Protoss? Terran have a viable way to play that is extremely effective .
The point still stands, races aren't the same, you can't compare anything that comes from the barracks to anything that comes from the gateway, that isn't how the game is built
Because my argument doesn't fall if you replace "Tier X" with "starport tech". Also there are Protoss 2gate 1robo openings. Protoss dt openings. Protoss Stargate openings in PvT. (all of 1base)
And Protoss have viable ways to play play PvT, PvP and ZvP with or without colossi. (though I'd always say that in standard play you always want to be able to have each tech available in lategame) Terrans don't have viable ways to play TvP without Stargates. And they don't have viable ways to play lategame (=standard, else someone just made a mistake) TvZ or TvT on pure baracks. That's why I say that gateway is a more complete tech path than Barracks.
And my point still stands: I'm pretty certain that due to the in the quotes mentioned arguments, "Protoss reapers" would have to suck even more than Terran reapers (and they suck pretty hard right now).
Voidrays in PvZ is really redudant if you make phoenix, it is worse than killing workers than phoenix, phoenix also kills undefended overlords. Void ray is a huge gas resource sink in the early game, and void rays are not something you want in the mid game sure it is good late game against corruptor, brood lords. In general they don't add anything to harassment that the phoenix couldn't had done, unless it is response to seeing a zerg take an early third or a zerg all in.
You say the Oracle is one-dimensional but that is just a false statement, it can harass mineral lines, phase out building to prevent upgrades or units production and phase out static defenses to aid timing pushes. That is not what you call one-dimensional.
Warp prism, is still underused and storm drops is not something you see that often eventhough it is really good, even dropping zealot is a mild harassment which has great benefit. Pulling worker is also lost incomed, could even force turret. Successful harassment is not to kill all of the workers.
Besides I do not see any need for a harass units for toss in the first place, all I see is protoss players not being active with any unit until they got a deathball.
Pheonix Harass is denied by turrets. Oracles can "stun" turrets, making pheonix harass more viable and less easily shut down. The unit provides good synergy and opens up more potential in stargate play. It is a great idea.
On November 02 2011 13:50 Vindicare605 wrote: Without getting in to why I like the Oracle. Can I ask you something?
Why is the Dark Templar not included in your list of Protoss Harassment options?
It should be. But it's pretty simple: DT's are good if your opponent isn't prepared. Otherwise, they're expensive archons. Either way, they're not consistent harass options because your opponent will certainly be prepared the second time.
The same could be said about any harassment unit. Sure the DT is more of a dedication tech wise but I don't think you can leave it out as a harassment unit because that it pretty much what it is designed to do.
On November 02 2011 21:15 Toadvine wrote:In any case, if HotS is supposed to add units that shore up weaknesses of the races, then the Terran and Zerg units do make sense in this context. Terran units serve to make mech a viable playstyle in all matchups, for example by giving Hellions the option to act as proper meatshields for Tanks. Zerg units allow them to break entrenched positions more easily, and generally achieve pressure without sacrificing tons of units. In light of this, the new Protoss units are a total joke, they don't solve Protoss problems at all. Well, you can Replicate a Siege Tank and maybe defend 1/1/1, so that's nice I suppose. :/
HotS is not supposed to do anything but sell well for blizzard. If you argue that further, it means that it should be interesting to buy it, so the game should be fun to play and balanced on high level of play. What the game doesn't need, is 3races that all have no weaknesses and play similar.
Races in SC2 aren't supposed to have no weaknesses and play similar. But they also aren't supposed to be WoW classes that are only good at one thing, and have glaring holes in their arsenal. The weaknesses we do want are the ones that produce interesting gameplay. Zerg not being able to break a turtling Terran even when at a huge advantage was a bad weakness that led to stupid games. An entire Terran tech tree being unusuable in TvP was a bad weakness, so units were added to help that.
Protoss had no effective means to harass in the early to mid game, and were extremely reliant on expensive tech to keep them on par with core Zerg/Terran units. This is a bad weakness, because it produces boring gameplay, where the Protoss sits in his base with no map control and just defends and masses up. So, units were added to help this... oh wait.
On November 02 2011 21:54 Big J wrote: Zergs and Terrans also don't just get units that counteract weaknesses that are intended to be there. But Mech was intended to be playable in TvP, giving them battlehellions and warhounds might fix that. Mass Thor in ZvT wasn't intended to be playable, that's why the Thor has to go and make space for a unit that is worse vs roaches. And Zerg was intended to be one of the more aggressive races. In the alpha and beta days when people weren't that great at that game, the general opinion was that zerg was THE pressuring race, running all over the place and denying expos. Protoss was intended to work well on Stargate tech, that's why they are trying to fix that with oracles and tempests. Also, Protoss ground tech gets HUGE buffs through the mass recall. Like artosis said: In the current state of the game, he would ALWAYS build an extra Nexus just to have ONE mass recall, because then he could just be out on the map and harass the hell out of everything, for 400 extra minerals...
Recall is actually one great thing about HotS, and is way better than our new units combined. I'd trade all of them just to keep the current Recall in the game, which will no doubt get nerfed hard at some point in the beta.
However, the point about Stargate tech is retarded. The problem with Stargate was that the units weren't very good in direct army vs army engagements. So, this problem is solved by adding a unit that doesn't attack, and a unit that is only good vs mass air?
But not only that: Gateway is a complete tech path. It has tank units (archons, zealots), antiair units (stalkers), casters (sentry/templar), damage dealers (zealot, templar, archon), mineraldump units (zealot), harass units (stalker, dt). Baracks is not.
As opposed to
Tank units (Marauders), antiair units (Marines, Ghosts), Casters (Ghosts), Damage Dealers (Marines,Marauders), mineral dump units (Marines), harass units (Marines, Marauders) ??
Read the full comment. Also Marauders aren't tank units. They have 125life for 100/25 costs. Stimmed they have 105life. Zealots have 150life, 50 in shields and cost 100 (also lesser passive costs, because they don't require tech labs).
Marauder are tank units with medivac support, which are no baracks unit. Also Marines and Marauders are no harass units. Marine/Marauder drops are, which again requires a Starport.
I was hoping you would see how ignorant your argument is by by pointing out something in such a ridiculous fashion.
EDIT: I'm just going to make this simple.
Marines, Marauders, Stim, Combat Shield, Concussive Shell, Ghosts and Reapers are all T 1.5 Tech, but Templars, Archons, DT's, Blink and Charge are not. Terrans OFTEN tech safely to Starport tech on a SINGLE base where as Protoss can barely even tech to Templars on two.
Hell, by the time Protoss actually manages to get everything needed it is usually 20mins+ into the game on 3/4 bases.
Different races are different and you cannot simply compare something that comes out of a barracks to something that comes out of a Gateway because Protoss and Terran ARE NOT THE SAME
And when was the last time you have seen a Protoss win without Colossus? The unit is a necessity
We are talking about starcraft and not C&C, try again with a better argument. In C&C T3>T2>T1. In Starcraft not. All those Tier 1,2,3 arguments are just simplyfications to make talking about implied tech (costs) and time to get the tech out simpler. Example: + Show Spoiler +
150/0+150/100+150/100+50/25+150/150 = 650/375 are the passive costs for a battlecruiser. 250/0+150/100+150/100+250/200+100/150 = 900/550 are the passive costs for a broodlord. If we define battlecruiser as T3, then broodlords are T5.
But that's really not very useful when talking about nonmirror matchups. As long as you don't build Colossi, Templar or Carriers, "T1" Marines counter every protoss unit, no matter what "tier" they are. (I'm not saying that one can't rely on defensive mechanisms like FFs against them! But in direct engagments the marine wins) Just think about Mech ("T2" and "T3" mixture) in PvT and Bio ("T1" and "T2" mixture). Guess which one has proven to be playable and which hasn't?
Seriously? You harp on like one part of one line as my "argument"? I just used Tiers as an easy way to explain the relative timings.
The part where I explain how Terran often get to Starport tech one a single base where as Protoss generally only get to Templar by 3bases should have been enough.
And your use of Tiers is just as awful. That isn't even what I meant
But what does it matter than Mech hasn't been proven vs Protoss? Terran have a viable way to play that is extremely effective .
The point still stands, races aren't the same, you can't compare anything that comes from the barracks to anything that comes from the gateway, that isn't how the game is built
Because my argument doesn't fall if you replace "Tier X" with "starport tech". Also there are Protoss 2gate 1robo openings. Protoss dt openings. Protoss Stargate openings in PvT. (all of 1base)
And Protoss have viable ways to play play PvT, PvP and ZvP with or without colossi. (though I'd always say that in standard play you always want to be able to have each tech available in lategame) Terrans don't have viable ways to play TvP without Stargates. And they don't have viable ways to play lategame (=standard, else someone just made a mistake) TvZ or TvT on pure baracks. That's why I say that gateway is a more complete tech path than Barracks.
This is such a ridiculous argument
What does it matter that you have to produce a Starport? Protoss may have a tech tree that complements the gateway well but to reach that requires a 20min+ game. Terran can safely get to Starport on a single base. Not to mention in the current metagame it is no longer possible to play a soley gateway tech game
What defines play styles like Mech is HOW the style is played, not where the units are made.
And my point still stands: I'm pretty certain that due to the in the quotes mentioned arguments, "Protoss reapers" would have to suck even more than Terran reapers (and they suck pretty hard right now).
[B] Kcdc is not saying the Oracle is bad, or useless. Truthfully, it takes a lot of effort to design a completely useless unit. The Oracle does present some interesting options, and it will almost surely be used in its current incarnation. The point is, it is not what Protoss needs.
Some of you have posted stuff akin to "Well, if you phase out the Roach Warren/Pool as your timing attack hits, it's going to be so powerful!". Do you really think it's good for Protoss to have even more powerful timings? Is that a good thing for the race, and for the game? Think about it.
Well, I guess I don't read Kcdc's post the way you do. While you ask the question if this is what the Protoss needs, and if it is good for the race, I find kdcd's post mostly stating how 'one dimensional' he finds the Oracle, and how he can see little use for it since it doesn't do damage and is built out of the starport.
The oracle can't shoot and is one-dimensional. Even if the oracle is balanced in such a way that it surpasses the harassment value of the phoenix and void ray, it lacks even the limited combat utility of its stargate peers. If Protoss already can't afford to get phoenixes or void rays against Terran, how can we expect them to afford a dedicated harassment unit that offers even less defensive value? Moreover, unlike the void ray (or the banshee or mutalisk), the oracle is only capable of raiding, and cannot be recycled into other functions after the harass has been defended. The mark of a robust unit design (like the void ray) is that it retains its value in many roles and is over-powered in none of them. Because the oracle is exceptionally one-dimensional, its harassment ability needs to be extremely strong in order to justify its cost. Blizzard is painting itself into a corner where the oracle's single function will need to be overpowered in order to offset its failings across the board.
-The oracle, as prosposed at BlizzCon, is ridiculously expensive. Gas is the lifeblood of the Protoss force that allows sentries, colossi, archons, storm, void rays, stalkers, etc. Beyond the mid-game, minerals are largely a throw-away resource dumped on spawning zealots to distract the opponent or lines of cannons to shore up expansions. For the cost of an oracle, Zerg can afford an expansion, and because a Protoss that has built an oracle will have too little gas invested in their army, he will be unable to punish the Zerg's expansion. Compare this to a zealot drop which costs no gas, is available from a more streamlined tech path, and achieves the same purpose of preventing workers from mining at a mineral line until a force returns to the base.
Kcdc (to me at least) seems to focus very much on that a harass unit must have direct combat utility to worthwhile both offensively and defensively, disregarding the fact that hindering the minining/splitting armies (needing to send units to kill off entombs)/forcing static defences (to prevent entombs and phasing)/delaying tech and unit production (phase building) can be very powerful tools both offensively and defensively.
It may not be what the Protoss NEEDS (of that I have no opinion), but I think it might be a bit early to make the call that it is one-dimensional and cannot fill any role that you cannot fill with Voids/Warp Prism+zealot/Phoenix or that it would be better with a protoss Hellion variant, that's all.
On November 02 2011 21:15 Toadvine wrote:In any case, if HotS is supposed to add units that shore up weaknesses of the races, then the Terran and Zerg units do make sense in this context. Terran units serve to make mech a viable playstyle in all matchups, for example by giving Hellions the option to act as proper meatshields for Tanks. Zerg units allow them to break entrenched positions more easily, and generally achieve pressure without sacrificing tons of units. In light of this, the new Protoss units are a total joke, they don't solve Protoss problems at all. Well, you can Replicate a Siege Tank and maybe defend 1/1/1, so that's nice I suppose. :/
HotS is not supposed to do anything but sell well for blizzard. If you argue that further, it means that it should be interesting to buy it, so the game should be fun to play and balanced on high level of play. What the game doesn't need, is 3races that all have no weaknesses and play similar.
Races in SC2 aren't supposed to have no weaknesses and play similar. But they also aren't supposed to be WoW classes that are only good at one thing, and have glaring holes in their arsenal. The weaknesses we do want are the ones that produce interesting gameplay. Zerg not being able to break a turtling Terran even when at a huge advantage was a bad weakness that led to stupid games. An entire Terran tech tree being unusuable in TvP was a bad weakness, so units were added to help that.
Protoss had no effective means to harass in the early to mid game, and were extremely reliant on expensive tech to keep them on par with core Zerg/Terran units. This is a bad weakness, because it produces boring gameplay, where the Protoss sits in his base with no map control and just defends and masses up. So, units were added to help this... oh wait.
Stargate openings vs Zerg? It's just that it seems like this techpath isn't viable further. That's why they try to make it more viable. Also: why should they give Protoss a pure early(gateway) harassment unit, that is a) hard to balance, due to warp gates b) overlapping with the dt in later stages of the game c) something terrans have; zergs partly have (zerglings harass, but they are not a unit purely designed to do so); so giving it to protoss would just mean that they "want each race to open with hellions vs zerg". It's a unique thing to have hellion openings as terran. Don't let them ruin the game with each race having the same basic strategy, just with different units. d) not necessary if they already make a spell like mass recall, which will basically make your whole army a big harrassment composition
On November 02 2011 21:54 Big J wrote: Zergs and Terrans also don't just get units that counteract weaknesses that are intended to be there. But Mech was intended to be playable in TvP, giving them battlehellions and warhounds might fix that. Mass Thor in ZvT wasn't intended to be playable, that's why the Thor has to go and make space for a unit that is worse vs roaches. And Zerg was intended to be one of the more aggressive races. In the alpha and beta days when people weren't that great at that game, the general opinion was that zerg was THE pressuring race, running all over the place and denying expos. Protoss was intended to work well on Stargate tech, that's why they are trying to fix that with oracles and tempests. Also, Protoss ground tech gets HUGE buffs through the mass recall. Like artosis said: In the current state of the game, he would ALWAYS build an extra Nexus just to have ONE mass recall, because then he could just be out on the map and harass the hell out of everything, for 400 extra minerals...
Recall is actually one great thing about HotS, and is way better than our new units combined. I'd trade all of them just to keep the current Recall in the game, which will no doubt get nerfed hard at some point in the beta.
However, the point about Stargate tech is retarded. The problem with Stargate was that the units weren't very good in direct army vs army engagements. So, this problem is solved by adding a unit that doesn't attack, and a unit that is only good vs mass air?
So in SC:BW Protoss players only went corsairs because they were so good vs hydralisks? No. Zerg players go for mass muta play vs terran because they are obviously soooo strong vs marines the main unit in standard biomech compositions? HELL NO! The problem isn't that Stargate tech is bad in combats. The problem is that Stargate tech and the complete airfleet that a Protoss invested into becomes useless in the midgame. (unlike corsairs in SC:BW) An Oracle would definatly help, because an oracle does never get useless, assuming that it doesn't die from 3spore shots. A Tempest is at least a try to give Protoss a flaggship that is playable. The carrier is not. So it has to go. The Tempest is at least a unit that will be fooled around with anew, before people decide if it is viable or not.
I respect posts like the OP due to the thought that goes into them- you clearly thought about it, you clearly put effort into making it reasonable and educated, and your points are justified. WP
I agree with your points, and would like to add that it wouldn't be unlike Blizz to be unreasonable like that <3
This is ridiculous. You spent time writing out your thoughts, which is great, but come on. It's fun to think about how units might be used, but creating a thread that details why they are bad units and why Blizzard should "give us something else"???? How is that even possible!? It's illogical. How can one complain about a unit without having seen it used in higher level games for some extended period of time? What if it turns out that contrary to OP's opinion, oracles are actually really really good, and in fact need to be nerfed somewhat due to their power? We can theorycraft and invent a bunch of situations in which we could call the oracle "OP", but likewise why do that before the game is out?
On November 02 2011 21:15 Toadvine wrote:In any case, if HotS is supposed to add units that shore up weaknesses of the races, then the Terran and Zerg units do make sense in this context. Terran units serve to make mech a viable playstyle in all matchups, for example by giving Hellions the option to act as proper meatshields for Tanks. Zerg units allow them to break entrenched positions more easily, and generally achieve pressure without sacrificing tons of units. In light of this, the new Protoss units are a total joke, they don't solve Protoss problems at all. Well, you can Replicate a Siege Tank and maybe defend 1/1/1, so that's nice I suppose. :/
HotS is not supposed to do anything but sell well for blizzard. If you argue that further, it means that it should be interesting to buy it, so the game should be fun to play and balanced on high level of play. What the game doesn't need, is 3races that all have no weaknesses and play similar.
Races in SC2 aren't supposed to have no weaknesses and play similar. But they also aren't supposed to be WoW classes that are only good at one thing, and have glaring holes in their arsenal. The weaknesses we do want are the ones that produce interesting gameplay. Zerg not being able to break a turtling Terran even when at a huge advantage was a bad weakness that led to stupid games. An entire Terran tech tree being unusuable in TvP was a bad weakness, so units were added to help that.
Protoss had no effective means to harass in the early to mid game, and were extremely reliant on expensive tech to keep them on par with core Zerg/Terran units. This is a bad weakness, because it produces boring gameplay, where the Protoss sits in his base with no map control and just defends and masses up. So, units were added to help this... oh wait.
On November 02 2011 21:54 Big J wrote: Zergs and Terrans also don't just get units that counteract weaknesses that are intended to be there. But Mech was intended to be playable in TvP, giving them battlehellions and warhounds might fix that. Mass Thor in ZvT wasn't intended to be playable, that's why the Thor has to go and make space for a unit that is worse vs roaches. And Zerg was intended to be one of the more aggressive races. In the alpha and beta days when people weren't that great at that game, the general opinion was that zerg was THE pressuring race, running all over the place and denying expos. Protoss was intended to work well on Stargate tech, that's why they are trying to fix that with oracles and tempests. Also, Protoss ground tech gets HUGE buffs through the mass recall. Like artosis said: In the current state of the game, he would ALWAYS build an extra Nexus just to have ONE mass recall, because then he could just be out on the map and harass the hell out of everything, for 400 extra minerals...
Recall is actually one great thing about HotS, and is way better than our new units combined. I'd trade all of them just to keep the current Recall in the game, which will no doubt get nerfed hard at some point in the beta.
However, the point about Stargate tech is retarded. The problem with Stargate was that the units weren't very good in direct army vs army engagements. So, this problem is solved by adding a unit that doesn't attack, and a unit that is only good vs mass air?
Toadvine explains the problems with the HotS units most succinctly. Zerg are being given a host of new options to solve their current problems (ultralisk/hydra ups, siege breaker, awesome spellcaster etc.). Terran are being given options to mech vs Protoss and more flexibility all round in Warhounds as well as a hilarious zoning unit with the Shredder (because it was TERRAN that lacked zoning units...).
Protoss are being given... a super-expensive harrasser that doesn't kill anything. Since when do we need that? The point is already that all our harrass options are very expensive... An extremely gas-heavy, niche unit in the Tempest, and a unit that isn't even really Protoss in the replicant.
Nexus recall as it stands is by many orders of magnitude the best thing Protoss could be getting. Harrass becomes viable with this and we don't have to pay through our nose for it. Amazing! This actually helps solve a problem Protoss has.
But not only that: Gateway is a complete tech path. It has tank units (archons, zealots), antiair units (stalkers), casters (sentry/templar), damage dealers (zealot, templar, archon), mineraldump units (zealot), harass units (stalker, dt). Baracks is not.
As opposed to
Tank units (Marauders), antiair units (Marines, Ghosts), Casters (Ghosts), Damage Dealers (Marines,Marauders), mineral dump units (Marines), harass units (Marines, Marauders) ??
Read the full comment. Also Marauders aren't tank units. They have 125life for 100/25 costs. Stimmed they have 105life. Zealots have 150life, 50 in shields and cost 100 (also lesser passive costs, because they don't require tech labs).
Marauder are tank units with medivac support, which are no baracks unit. Also Marines and Marauders are no harass units. Marine/Marauder drops are, which again requires a Starport.
I was hoping you would see how ignorant your argument is by by pointing out something in such a ridiculous fashion.
EDIT: I'm just going to make this simple.
Marines, Marauders, Stim, Combat Shield, Concussive Shell, Ghosts and Reapers are all T 1.5 Tech, but Templars, Archons, DT's, Blink and Charge are not. Terrans OFTEN tech safely to Starport tech on a SINGLE base where as Protoss can barely even tech to Templars on two.
Hell, by the time Protoss actually manages to get everything needed it is usually 20mins+ into the game on 3/4 bases.
Different races are different and you cannot simply compare something that comes out of a barracks to something that comes out of a Gateway because Protoss and Terran ARE NOT THE SAME
And when was the last time you have seen a Protoss win without Colossus? The unit is a necessity
We are talking about starcraft and not C&C, try again with a better argument. In C&C T3>T2>T1. In Starcraft not. All those Tier 1,2,3 arguments are just simplyfications to make talking about implied tech (costs) and time to get the tech out simpler. Example: + Show Spoiler +
150/0+150/100+150/100+50/25+150/150 = 650/375 are the passive costs for a battlecruiser. 250/0+150/100+150/100+250/200+100/150 = 900/550 are the passive costs for a broodlord. If we define battlecruiser as T3, then broodlords are T5.
But that's really not very useful when talking about nonmirror matchups. As long as you don't build Colossi, Templar or Carriers, "T1" Marines counter every protoss unit, no matter what "tier" they are. (I'm not saying that one can't rely on defensive mechanisms like FFs against them! But in direct engagments the marine wins) Just think about Mech ("T2" and "T3" mixture) in PvT and Bio ("T1" and "T2" mixture). Guess which one has proven to be playable and which hasn't?
Seriously? You harp on like one part of one line as my "argument"? I just used Tiers as an easy way to explain the relative timings.
The part where I explain how Terran often get to Starport tech one a single base where as Protoss generally only get to Templar by 3bases should have been enough.
And your use of Tiers is just as awful. That isn't even what I meant
But what does it matter than Mech hasn't been proven vs Protoss? Terran have a viable way to play that is extremely effective .
The point still stands, races aren't the same, you can't compare anything that comes from the barracks to anything that comes from the gateway, that isn't how the game is built
Because my argument doesn't fall if you replace "Tier X" with "starport tech". Also there are Protoss 2gate 1robo openings. Protoss dt openings. Protoss Stargate openings in PvT. (all of 1base)
And Protoss have viable ways to play play PvT, PvP and ZvP with or without colossi. (though I'd always say that in standard play you always want to be able to have each tech available in lategame) Terrans don't have viable ways to play TvP without Stargates. And they don't have viable ways to play lategame (=standard, else someone just made a mistake) TvZ or TvT on pure baracks. That's why I say that gateway is a more complete tech path than Barracks.
This is such a ridiculous argument
What does it matter that you have to produce a Starport? Protoss may have a tech tree that complements the gateway well but to reach that requires a 20min+ game. Terran can safely get to Starport on a single base. Not to mention in the current metagame it is no longer possible to play a soley gateway tech game
What defines play styles like Mech is HOW the style is played, not where the units are made.
And my point still stands: I'm pretty certain that due to the in the quotes mentioned arguments, "Protoss reapers" would have to suck even more than Terran reapers (and they suck pretty hard right now).
That is something play testing would decide
Really, "how something is played" is more important than where and from which tech it is made (my point all along)? So why do you keep arguing that Terrans can build a Starport of 1base, while protoss needs a 20min game to get all the tech they need to kill a complete bio composition. Matter of the fact is, that Protoss can play very active through all those 20mins. (with dts, with blink, with allins, with warp prisms) At least once you are high enough level to have a decent amount of multitasking for that.
I disagree with the bit about blink stalkers. They are a perfectly effective harassment tool in PvZ and unless the zerg gets infestors, you can always retreat.
The purpose of the oracle is to give the protoss detection through the stargate so that you aren't fucked for avoiding robo.
Warp prisms, stargates, and DTs actually gives protoss a lot of harassment options I think there just needs to be some small tweaks to what we have rather than a new unit. Even though I think the oracle is a cool unit I would prefer having DTs and HTs be available from 1 tech building than having another harass unit.
I think the phase shift ability is a bit silly. If it becomes popular enough then zergs are just going to build an additional roach warren and spawning pool in another base. True, you could scout that with observers and then build more oracles to also lock those down, but it seems like a risky strategy.
Dark templars are bad design, imo. If they get detected you do no damage. I wish they would get an activated ability that was: 6 seconds of invulnerability, guaranteed death at the end, so they could always do some damage.
Phoenix, Voidrays and Dts are all countered by very few turrets/spores.. we dont need another unit that gets countered by those static defenses. One could argue that the oracle beats static defenses but as long as we talk about low numbers of oracles in early-midgame they obviously dont.
We need a protoss-like reaper, terrans dont want him anyway. low hp/range and high dps will make them weak in deathballs but strong at harassing.
On November 02 2011 12:55 kcdc wrote: -The oracle can't shoot and is one-dimensional. Even if the oracle is balanced in such a way that it surpasses the harassment value of the phoenix and void ray, it lacks even the limited combat utility of its stargate peers. If Protoss already can't afford to get phoenixes or void rays against Terran, how can we expect them to afford a dedicated harassment unit that offers even less defensive value? Moreover, unlike the void ray (or the banshee or mutalisk), the oracle is only capable of raiding, and cannot be recycled into other functions after the harass has been defended. The mark of a robust unit design (like the void ray) is that it retains its value in many roles and is over-powered in none of them. Because the oracle is exceptionally one-dimensional, its harassment ability needs to be extremely strong in order to justify its cost. Blizzard is painting itself into a corner where the oracle's single function will need to be overpowered in order to offset its failings across the board.
-The oracle, as prosposed at BlizzCon, is ridiculously expensive. Gas is the lifeblood of the Protoss force that allows sentries, colossi, archons, storm, void rays, stalkers, etc. Beyond the mid-game, minerals are largely a throw-away resource dumped on spawning zealots to distract the opponent or lines of cannons to shore up expansions. For the cost of an oracle, Zerg can afford an expansion, and because a Protoss that has built an oracle will have too little gas invested in their army, he will be unable to punish the Zerg's expansion. Compare this to a zealot drop which costs no gas, is available from a more streamlined tech path, and achieves the same purpose of preventing workers from mining at a mineral line until a force returns to the base.
Why aren't people talking about the uses for the "nullify" ability in a main army (the one that shuts down structures)? Can't this be used to supplement harassment options (shutting down spore crawlers, turrets, PFs, and cannons for Warp Prism drops/DT harass)? What about locking down Zerg spine crawler walls that show up in late game PvZ for big pushes? How about incorporating an Oracle into early- or mid-game timing pushes to lock down defensive structures?
Concerning it's cost, sure, expensive now, but as it's been said a thousand times before, the costs and unit stats have not gone through balancing. The dev team was very clear that these units are concepts, not their actual realization.
On November 02 2011 23:32 Grumbels wrote: I think the phase shift ability is a bit silly. If it becomes popular enough then zergs are just going to build an additional roach warren and spawning pool in another base. True, you could scout that with observers and then build more oracles to also lock those down, but it seems like a risky strategy.
Isn't that a way of harassment ? You are forcing the opponents to react building something that is not useful.
On November 02 2011 23:32 Grumbels wrote: I think the phase shift ability is a bit silly. If it becomes popular enough then zergs are just going to build an additional roach warren and spawning pool in another base. True, you could scout that with observers and then build more oracles to also lock those down, but it seems like a risky strategy.
Isn't that a way of harassment ? You are forcing the opponents to react building something that is not useful.
Succesful harassment, i would say.
One additional roach warren is a very small price to shut down a protoss tactic of attacking and then phase shifting the roach warren to prevent roach remax. Yeah, you've done damage, but it's also insignificant.
But not only that: Gateway is a complete tech path. It has tank units (archons, zealots), antiair units (stalkers), casters (sentry/templar), damage dealers (zealot, templar, archon), mineraldump units (zealot), harass units (stalker, dt). Baracks is not.
As opposed to
Tank units (Marauders), antiair units (Marines, Ghosts), Casters (Ghosts), Damage Dealers (Marines,Marauders), mineral dump units (Marines), harass units (Marines, Marauders) ??
Read the full comment. Also Marauders aren't tank units. They have 125life for 100/25 costs. Stimmed they have 105life. Zealots have 150life, 50 in shields and cost 100 (also lesser passive costs, because they don't require tech labs).
Marauder are tank units with medivac support, which are no baracks unit. Also Marines and Marauders are no harass units. Marine/Marauder drops are, which again requires a Starport.
I was hoping you would see how ignorant your argument is by by pointing out something in such a ridiculous fashion.
EDIT: I'm just going to make this simple.
Marines, Marauders, Stim, Combat Shield, Concussive Shell, Ghosts and Reapers are all T 1.5 Tech, but Templars, Archons, DT's, Blink and Charge are not. Terrans OFTEN tech safely to Starport tech on a SINGLE base where as Protoss can barely even tech to Templars on two.
Hell, by the time Protoss actually manages to get everything needed it is usually 20mins+ into the game on 3/4 bases.
Different races are different and you cannot simply compare something that comes out of a barracks to something that comes out of a Gateway because Protoss and Terran ARE NOT THE SAME
And when was the last time you have seen a Protoss win without Colossus? The unit is a necessity
We are talking about starcraft and not C&C, try again with a better argument. In C&C T3>T2>T1. In Starcraft not. All those Tier 1,2,3 arguments are just simplyfications to make talking about implied tech (costs) and time to get the tech out simpler. Example: + Show Spoiler +
150/0+150/100+150/100+50/25+150/150 = 650/375 are the passive costs for a battlecruiser. 250/0+150/100+150/100+250/200+100/150 = 900/550 are the passive costs for a broodlord. If we define battlecruiser as T3, then broodlords are T5.
But that's really not very useful when talking about nonmirror matchups. As long as you don't build Colossi, Templar or Carriers, "T1" Marines counter every protoss unit, no matter what "tier" they are. (I'm not saying that one can't rely on defensive mechanisms like FFs against them! But in direct engagments the marine wins) Just think about Mech ("T2" and "T3" mixture) in PvT and Bio ("T1" and "T2" mixture). Guess which one has proven to be playable and which hasn't?
Seriously? You harp on like one part of one line as my "argument"? I just used Tiers as an easy way to explain the relative timings.
The part where I explain how Terran often get to Starport tech one a single base where as Protoss generally only get to Templar by 3bases should have been enough.
And your use of Tiers is just as awful. That isn't even what I meant
But what does it matter than Mech hasn't been proven vs Protoss? Terran have a viable way to play that is extremely effective .
The point still stands, races aren't the same, you can't compare anything that comes from the barracks to anything that comes from the gateway, that isn't how the game is built
Because my argument doesn't fall if you replace "Tier X" with "starport tech". Also there are Protoss 2gate 1robo openings. Protoss dt openings. Protoss Stargate openings in PvT. (all of 1base)
And Protoss have viable ways to play play PvT, PvP and ZvP with or without colossi. (though I'd always say that in standard play you always want to be able to have each tech available in lategame) Terrans don't have viable ways to play TvP without Stargates. And they don't have viable ways to play lategame (=standard, else someone just made a mistake) TvZ or TvT on pure baracks. That's why I say that gateway is a more complete tech path than Barracks.
This is such a ridiculous argument
What does it matter that you have to produce a Starport? Protoss may have a tech tree that complements the gateway well but to reach that requires a 20min+ game. Terran can safely get to Starport on a single base. Not to mention in the current metagame it is no longer possible to play a soley gateway tech game
What defines play styles like Mech is HOW the style is played, not where the units are made.
And my point still stands: I'm pretty certain that due to the in the quotes mentioned arguments, "Protoss reapers" would have to suck even more than Terran reapers (and they suck pretty hard right now).
That is something play testing would decide
Really, "how something is played" is more important than where and from which tech it is made (my point all along)? So why do you keep arguing that Terrans can build a Starport of 1base, while protoss needs a 20min game to get all the tech they need to kill a complete bio composition. Matter of the fact is, that Protoss can play very active through all those 20mins. (with dts, with blink, with allins, with warp prisms) At least once you are high enough level to have a decent amount of multitasking for that.
Who says I'm complaining? I'm trying to make a point. The point YOU are complaining that Terran "have" to make a Starport is absolutely absurd
For the time gateway styles did work forging Colossus actually had a meaningful impact on the game. It allowed you to get MUCH faster upgrades, faster expos, defend drops easier and be much more active around the map as opposed to the turtle style of Colossus.But it isn't possible anymore. I have yet to see any standard play using these pure styles. But the point still stands, you play differently.
How does forging Medivacs and Viking expand on Bio play? It Doesn't. Not to mention skipping Starport does not have the same implications on Terran as skipping Robo tech for Protoss.
Protoss is a race divided by tech.
Protoss may have three production facilities but it is not those three that define them, it is what is beyond that. Fleet Beacon, Templar Archives/Dark Shrine and Support bay are significantly more meaningful than the Gateway, Robotics Facility and Stargate. Gateways are still made en-mass lategame as Protoss regardless of which tree you take but what makes them meaningful is the Tech you have got along the way.
Stop trying to compare races so casually. Why things work for one race and not the other is because it is completely different race
On November 02 2011 23:32 Grumbels wrote: I think the phase shift ability is a bit silly. If it becomes popular enough then zergs are just going to build an additional roach warren and spawning pool in another base. True, you could scout that with observers and then build more oracles to also lock those down, but it seems like a risky strategy.
Isn't that a way of harassment ? You are forcing the opponents to react building something that is not useful.
Succesful harassment, i would say.
One additional roach warren is a very small price to shut down a protoss tactic of attacking and then phase shifting the roach warren to prevent roach remax. Yeah, you've done damage, but it's also insignificant.
So, everytime Zerg sees a starport/starport unit, he has to react with an additional roach warren/spawning pool? Man that unit is good, the pure possibility of protoss being able to have it, already makes me waste 450minerals and 2larva, just to be safe. That being said, an additional pool and an additional roach warren is a small price. Mining 300less minerals because of an entomb is another small price. Losing an extra queen and 2more probes to stargate harass early, because the oracle has phased out my first spore crawler is another small price. Building an extra spore crawler, so that this can't happen again is another small price... "Aiur, they have got a problem", "Mission succesful Oracle!"
And even if the balancing will be completly different, so that this isn't a realistic scenario: The oracle will see use and people will LOVE it, once they figure out how to use it.
On November 02 2011 13:50 Vindicare605 wrote: Without getting in to why I like the Oracle. Can I ask you something?
Why is the Dark Templar not included in your list of Protoss Harassment options?
It should be. But it's pretty simple: DT's are good if your opponent isn't prepared. Otherwise, they're expensive archons. Either way, they're not consistent harass options because your opponent will certainly be prepared the second time.
So I get it right? You want a unit that pulls off harass successfully even if the opponent is prepared, that demands a response from the opponent that is out of the way of his usual combat tech and that is located conveniently in your tech path so you don't have to specifically invest in harassment? Oh.. and it should also have some utility in other roles...
Tell me one unit that fullfils those criteria...
This one is easy. MM drops are the best example. They require literally no extra tech, they often pick off workers and structures even when the opponent knows they're on the map, they force the opponent to build static defenses and leave troops in his bases which weakens his core army strength, and they can swing back around and join your main army.
Other options that complete this quadruple threat: banshees, hellions, speedlings, delayed mutalisks (you need the spire anyway), baneling drops (if Z is going banelings anyway), zealot drops (sort of), void rays (sort of--the stargate is out of the way at that timing, but becomes useful again later).
That's not the point, it's about design. A unit that forces some costs to be shut down isn't balanced well. Sure, you might build one every game because of its strength, but is that fun design?
Honestly protoss need a harassment unit that is able to provide utility into the main army. The reaver was perfect for this because it was a decent siege unit as well as able to harass the economy with drops. I honestly don't see how the oracle is going to be used very much because the issue with protoss econ harass was that it forced protoss to go so far out of the way of their bulk army path that it was almost not worth it. The oracle isn't going to solve this problem because simply put it's not a main army unit. I was thinking about some combination of a sentry and the oracle. The oracle would be able to cast force fields around minerals one at a time for certain energy a piece. Then the oracle would serve as a decent part of your army due to the fact that it could cast these force fields in battle as well. These FFs wouldn't be as strong as the one that came out of the sentry because they could be targeted down, but you'd be able to cast more of them. What does everyone think?
On November 02 2011 21:15 Toadvine wrote:In any case, if HotS is supposed to add units that shore up weaknesses of the races, then the Terran and Zerg units do make sense in this context. Terran units serve to make mech a viable playstyle in all matchups, for example by giving Hellions the option to act as proper meatshields for Tanks. Zerg units allow them to break entrenched positions more easily, and generally achieve pressure without sacrificing tons of units. In light of this, the new Protoss units are a total joke, they don't solve Protoss problems at all. Well, you can Replicate a Siege Tank and maybe defend 1/1/1, so that's nice I suppose. :/
HotS is not supposed to do anything but sell well for blizzard. If you argue that further, it means that it should be interesting to buy it, so the game should be fun to play and balanced on high level of play. What the game doesn't need, is 3races that all have no weaknesses and play similar.
Races in SC2 aren't supposed to have no weaknesses and play similar. But they also aren't supposed to be WoW classes that are only good at one thing, and have glaring holes in their arsenal. The weaknesses we do want are the ones that produce interesting gameplay. Zerg not being able to break a turtling Terran even when at a huge advantage was a bad weakness that led to stupid games. An entire Terran tech tree being unusuable in TvP was a bad weakness, so units were added to help that.
Protoss had no effective means to harass in the early to mid game, and were extremely reliant on expensive tech to keep them on par with core Zerg/Terran units. This is a bad weakness, because it produces boring gameplay, where the Protoss sits in his base with no map control and just defends and masses up. So, units were added to help this... oh wait.
Stargate openings vs Zerg? It's just that it seems like this techpath isn't viable further. That's why they try to make it more viable. Also: why should they give Protoss a pure early(gateway) harassment unit, that is a) hard to balance, due to warp gates b) overlapping with the dt in later stages of the game c) something terrans have; zergs partly have (zerglings harass, but they are not a unit purely designed to do so); so giving it to protoss would just mean that they "want each race to open with hellions vs zerg". It's a unique thing to have hellion openings as terran. Don't let them ruin the game with each race having the same basic strategy, just with different units. d) not necessary if they already make a spell like mass recall, which will basically make your whole army a big harrassment composition
On November 02 2011 21:54 Big J wrote: Zergs and Terrans also don't just get units that counteract weaknesses that are intended to be there. But Mech was intended to be playable in TvP, giving them battlehellions and warhounds might fix that. Mass Thor in ZvT wasn't intended to be playable, that's why the Thor has to go and make space for a unit that is worse vs roaches. And Zerg was intended to be one of the more aggressive races. In the alpha and beta days when people weren't that great at that game, the general opinion was that zerg was THE pressuring race, running all over the place and denying expos. Protoss was intended to work well on Stargate tech, that's why they are trying to fix that with oracles and tempests. Also, Protoss ground tech gets HUGE buffs through the mass recall. Like artosis said: In the current state of the game, he would ALWAYS build an extra Nexus just to have ONE mass recall, because then he could just be out on the map and harass the hell out of everything, for 400 extra minerals...
Recall is actually one great thing about HotS, and is way better than our new units combined. I'd trade all of them just to keep the current Recall in the game, which will no doubt get nerfed hard at some point in the beta.
However, the point about Stargate tech is retarded. The problem with Stargate was that the units weren't very good in direct army vs army engagements. So, this problem is solved by adding a unit that doesn't attack, and a unit that is only good vs mass air?
So in SC:BW Protoss players only went corsairs because they were so good vs hydralisks? No. Zerg players go for mass muta play vs terran because they are obviously soooo strong vs marines the main unit in standard biomech compositions? HELL NO! The problem isn't that Stargate tech is bad in combats. The problem is that Stargate tech and the complete airfleet that a Protoss invested into becomes useless in the midgame. (unlike corsairs in SC:BW) An Oracle would definatly help, because an oracle does never get useless, assuming that it doesn't die from 3spore shots. A Tempest is at least a try to give Protoss a flaggship that is playable. The carrier is not. So it has to go. The Tempest is at least a unit that will be fooled around with anew, before people decide if it is viable or not.
Sorry, but at this point, I'm pretty sure you don't understand what you're talking about at all. The exact problem with Stargate, in both PvT and PvZ, is that if it doesn't do enough damage, it is simply awful for its cost in a direct army vs army fight. Do you know what good Zergs do when they see a Stargate opening? They spore up, make tons of drones to saturate 3 bases, and then just make a shitload of roaches and lings to deny the Protoss third. Do you know what Terrans do? They expand, go up to 5-6 raxes, and then push with stim/combat shields done, and kill the Protoss natural.
The problem is very clearly that the units aren't good enough. And you even bring up Mutalisks, the perfect example of how this kind of unit can work well. Mutas have amazing combat utility compared to Phoenix/VRs. In fact, Zerg players often continue massing Mutas throughout the whole game, just because of how good they are as a core army unit.
Stargate openings being standard in BW is kind of a moot point, since SC2 Protoss is way different from BW Protoss (in fact, SC2 Terran is more similar to BW Protoss).
I can't agree more with your thoughts and opinions. And after having played around with it in the HotS custom maps I really agree... it's crazy expesive and is just better to not bother with it at all... espeically given that its also pretty weak and one mis-click and you've lost it to two stalkers defending the mineral line.
And in general I really don't like the new protoss units at all, they seem to offer no real fixes to any of the short comings that the protoss has in WoL... further more I really think that the new Z and T units make them far, far more powerful than the protoss which at the highest level isn't as strong as T or Z anyway...
But not only that: Gateway is a complete tech path. It has tank units (archons, zealots), antiair units (stalkers), casters (sentry/templar), damage dealers (zealot, templar, archon), mineraldump units (zealot), harass units (stalker, dt). Baracks is not.
As opposed to
Tank units (Marauders), antiair units (Marines, Ghosts), Casters (Ghosts), Damage Dealers (Marines,Marauders), mineral dump units (Marines), harass units (Marines, Marauders) ??
Read the full comment. Also Marauders aren't tank units. They have 125life for 100/25 costs. Stimmed they have 105life. Zealots have 150life, 50 in shields and cost 100 (also lesser passive costs, because they don't require tech labs).
Marauder are tank units with medivac support, which are no baracks unit. Also Marines and Marauders are no harass units. Marine/Marauder drops are, which again requires a Starport.
I was hoping you would see how ignorant your argument is by by pointing out something in such a ridiculous fashion.
EDIT: I'm just going to make this simple.
Marines, Marauders, Stim, Combat Shield, Concussive Shell, Ghosts and Reapers are all T 1.5 Tech, but Templars, Archons, DT's, Blink and Charge are not. Terrans OFTEN tech safely to Starport tech on a SINGLE base where as Protoss can barely even tech to Templars on two.
Hell, by the time Protoss actually manages to get everything needed it is usually 20mins+ into the game on 3/4 bases.
Different races are different and you cannot simply compare something that comes out of a barracks to something that comes out of a Gateway because Protoss and Terran ARE NOT THE SAME
And when was the last time you have seen a Protoss win without Colossus? The unit is a necessity
We are talking about starcraft and not C&C, try again with a better argument. In C&C T3>T2>T1. In Starcraft not. All those Tier 1,2,3 arguments are just simplyfications to make talking about implied tech (costs) and time to get the tech out simpler. Example: + Show Spoiler +
150/0+150/100+150/100+50/25+150/150 = 650/375 are the passive costs for a battlecruiser. 250/0+150/100+150/100+250/200+100/150 = 900/550 are the passive costs for a broodlord. If we define battlecruiser as T3, then broodlords are T5.
But that's really not very useful when talking about nonmirror matchups. As long as you don't build Colossi, Templar or Carriers, "T1" Marines counter every protoss unit, no matter what "tier" they are. (I'm not saying that one can't rely on defensive mechanisms like FFs against them! But in direct engagments the marine wins) Just think about Mech ("T2" and "T3" mixture) in PvT and Bio ("T1" and "T2" mixture). Guess which one has proven to be playable and which hasn't?
Seriously? You harp on like one part of one line as my "argument"? I just used Tiers as an easy way to explain the relative timings.
The part where I explain how Terran often get to Starport tech one a single base where as Protoss generally only get to Templar by 3bases should have been enough.
And your use of Tiers is just as awful. That isn't even what I meant
But what does it matter than Mech hasn't been proven vs Protoss? Terran have a viable way to play that is extremely effective .
The point still stands, races aren't the same, you can't compare anything that comes from the barracks to anything that comes from the gateway, that isn't how the game is built
Because my argument doesn't fall if you replace "Tier X" with "starport tech". Also there are Protoss 2gate 1robo openings. Protoss dt openings. Protoss Stargate openings in PvT. (all of 1base)
And Protoss have viable ways to play play PvT, PvP and ZvP with or without colossi. (though I'd always say that in standard play you always want to be able to have each tech available in lategame) Terrans don't have viable ways to play TvP without Stargates. And they don't have viable ways to play lategame (=standard, else someone just made a mistake) TvZ or TvT on pure baracks. That's why I say that gateway is a more complete tech path than Barracks.
This is such a ridiculous argument
What does it matter that you have to produce a Starport? Protoss may have a tech tree that complements the gateway well but to reach that requires a 20min+ game. Terran can safely get to Starport on a single base. Not to mention in the current metagame it is no longer possible to play a soley gateway tech game
What defines play styles like Mech is HOW the style is played, not where the units are made.
And my point still stands: I'm pretty certain that due to the in the quotes mentioned arguments, "Protoss reapers" would have to suck even more than Terran reapers (and they suck pretty hard right now).
That is something play testing would decide
Really, "how something is played" is more important than where and from which tech it is made (my point all along)? So why do you keep arguing that Terrans can build a Starport of 1base, while protoss needs a 20min game to get all the tech they need to kill a complete bio composition. Matter of the fact is, that Protoss can play very active through all those 20mins. (with dts, with blink, with allins, with warp prisms) At least once you are high enough level to have a decent amount of multitasking for that.
Who says I'm complaining? I'm trying to make a point. The point YOU are complaining that Terran "have" to make a Starport is absolutely absurd
For the time gateway styles did work forging Colossus actually had a meaningful impact on the game. It allowed you to get MUCH faster upgrades, faster expos, defend drops easier and be much more active around the map as opposed to the turtle style of Colossus.
But it isn't possible anymore. I have yet to see any standard play using these pure styles. But the point still stands, you play differently.
How does forging Medivacs and Viking expand on Bio play? It Doesn't. Not to mention skipping Starport does not have the same implications on Terran as it does Protoss.
Protoss is a race divided by tech.
Protoss may have three production facilities but it is not those three that define them, it is what is beyond that. Fleet Beacon, Templar Archives/Dark Shrine and Support bay are significantly more meaningful than the Gateway, Robotics Facility and Stargate.
Gateways are still made en-mass lategame as Protoss regardless of which tree you take but what makes them meaningful is the Tech you have got along the way.
Stop trying to compare races so casually. Why things work for one race and not the other is because it is completely different race
so you think blizzard has been working nearly a year now on HotS, but there is a reason that protoss has NOT been given a reaper/hellion unit on gateway tech? I'm sure there was a contest in the developing team with the rules: First three units a single person comes up with, make it into the game for protoss. (lol) And sadly all those great, great units some of the guys had in mind didn't make it, because the dumbest of those guys sadly had the fastest handwriting...
It was one of exactly 2reasons, why Protoss didn't get this (terranlike) unit, that people like you want them to have: a) The unit didn't fit in the Protoss concept, so they didn't want Protoss to have it b) The unit couldn't be balanced, therefore was either overpowered without completly redesigning parts of the Protoss race; or so underpowered, that it would not have seen use anyway And I really don't blame them for that. Even if there was a way to implement such a unit and make it "protossish": Why do it, when they are planning to fix that "issue" in protoss gameplay anyway with mass recall? People keep focusing on why new units don't do what they want them to do, while blizzard is adding huge features all around the game. Who plays roaches without speed? Noone. Who plays hydras without speed? Noone. Maybe Hydras with speed will be playable! Who plays mass (blink) stalkers to harass a terran with concussive shells? Noone. Who plays them, when you can just blink in, kill something and teleport home? Maybe that is what people will do! Cliffwalking colossi, walking into a mineral line, focusing scvs and then being teleported home, once the viking fleet arrives. Oracles, whichever balancing they will have shutting down spores and turrets, so protoss air harass/dts do major damage.
Those are all possibilities how the game may work out. We don't know yet, but ignoring that it may work out like that, and saying that a protoss reaper unit would surely have a big harass role while the terran reaper unit does not, is just whining about/glorifying things that we don't know how they will/would turn out.
Reavers replacing colossi would be good. Reavers wouldn't be countered by vikings, so in order to shut down the harass, Terran would need to make units that are suboptimal in combat. SC2 Terran would still have an easier time getting a viking than SC1 Terran has getting a wraith, but it'd be a step forward for Protoss harass.
It would probably also be imbalanced as hell because splash is way stronger in SC2 than it is in SC1.
On November 02 2011 14:13 Whiplash wrote: Agree 100% with this post kcdc, this is exactly my thoughts on the Oracle. I think the idea of the Oracle is great but it doesn't fill the role that the Oracle is suppose to be: An early game cheep harassment unit that can scout.
The oracle seems to me like way more than an early game cheap harassment unit. I feel like many of you are just pigeonhole-ing it into that category without thinking of the mid-late game strategic options for it. Being able to shut down production/tech buildings is HUGE to do during or in the wake of a large battle where both sides lose units.. How awesome is it to prevent the other side from rebuilding as much as you? Come back and fight with an army advantage because you were able to reinforce with more units.. and if you dont win outright, you can do it again till it becomes one-sided.
EDIT: Although I do agree that giving toss ANOTHER caster is kinda crazy. Especially a caster who probably won't be with your main army.
Tank units (Marauders), antiair units (Marines, Ghosts), Casters (Ghosts), Damage Dealers (Marines,Marauders), mineral dump units (Marines), harass units (Marines, Marauders) ??
Read the full comment. Also Marauders aren't tank units. They have 125life for 100/25 costs. Stimmed they have 105life. Zealots have 150life, 50 in shields and cost 100 (also lesser passive costs, because they don't require tech labs).
Marauder are tank units with medivac support, which are no baracks unit. Also Marines and Marauders are no harass units. Marine/Marauder drops are, which again requires a Starport.
I was hoping you would see how ignorant your argument is by by pointing out something in such a ridiculous fashion.
EDIT: I'm just going to make this simple.
Marines, Marauders, Stim, Combat Shield, Concussive Shell, Ghosts and Reapers are all T 1.5 Tech, but Templars, Archons, DT's, Blink and Charge are not. Terrans OFTEN tech safely to Starport tech on a SINGLE base where as Protoss can barely even tech to Templars on two.
Hell, by the time Protoss actually manages to get everything needed it is usually 20mins+ into the game on 3/4 bases.
Different races are different and you cannot simply compare something that comes out of a barracks to something that comes out of a Gateway because Protoss and Terran ARE NOT THE SAME
And when was the last time you have seen a Protoss win without Colossus? The unit is a necessity
We are talking about starcraft and not C&C, try again with a better argument. In C&C T3>T2>T1. In Starcraft not. All those Tier 1,2,3 arguments are just simplyfications to make talking about implied tech (costs) and time to get the tech out simpler. Example: + Show Spoiler +
150/0+150/100+150/100+50/25+150/150 = 650/375 are the passive costs for a battlecruiser. 250/0+150/100+150/100+250/200+100/150 = 900/550 are the passive costs for a broodlord. If we define battlecruiser as T3, then broodlords are T5.
But that's really not very useful when talking about nonmirror matchups. As long as you don't build Colossi, Templar or Carriers, "T1" Marines counter every protoss unit, no matter what "tier" they are. (I'm not saying that one can't rely on defensive mechanisms like FFs against them! But in direct engagments the marine wins) Just think about Mech ("T2" and "T3" mixture) in PvT and Bio ("T1" and "T2" mixture). Guess which one has proven to be playable and which hasn't?
Seriously? You harp on like one part of one line as my "argument"? I just used Tiers as an easy way to explain the relative timings.
The part where I explain how Terran often get to Starport tech one a single base where as Protoss generally only get to Templar by 3bases should have been enough.
And your use of Tiers is just as awful. That isn't even what I meant
But what does it matter than Mech hasn't been proven vs Protoss? Terran have a viable way to play that is extremely effective .
The point still stands, races aren't the same, you can't compare anything that comes from the barracks to anything that comes from the gateway, that isn't how the game is built
Because my argument doesn't fall if you replace "Tier X" with "starport tech". Also there are Protoss 2gate 1robo openings. Protoss dt openings. Protoss Stargate openings in PvT. (all of 1base)
And Protoss have viable ways to play play PvT, PvP and ZvP with or without colossi. (though I'd always say that in standard play you always want to be able to have each tech available in lategame) Terrans don't have viable ways to play TvP without Stargates. And they don't have viable ways to play lategame (=standard, else someone just made a mistake) TvZ or TvT on pure baracks. That's why I say that gateway is a more complete tech path than Barracks.
This is such a ridiculous argument
What does it matter that you have to produce a Starport? Protoss may have a tech tree that complements the gateway well but to reach that requires a 20min+ game. Terran can safely get to Starport on a single base. Not to mention in the current metagame it is no longer possible to play a soley gateway tech game
What defines play styles like Mech is HOW the style is played, not where the units are made.
And my point still stands: I'm pretty certain that due to the in the quotes mentioned arguments, "Protoss reapers" would have to suck even more than Terran reapers (and they suck pretty hard right now).
That is something play testing would decide
Really, "how something is played" is more important than where and from which tech it is made (my point all along)? So why do you keep arguing that Terrans can build a Starport of 1base, while protoss needs a 20min game to get all the tech they need to kill a complete bio composition. Matter of the fact is, that Protoss can play very active through all those 20mins. (with dts, with blink, with allins, with warp prisms) At least once you are high enough level to have a decent amount of multitasking for that.
Who says I'm complaining? I'm trying to make a point. The point YOU are complaining that Terran "have" to make a Starport is absolutely absurd
For the time gateway styles did work forging Colossus actually had a meaningful impact on the game. It allowed you to get MUCH faster upgrades, faster expos, defend drops easier and be much more active around the map as opposed to the turtle style of Colossus.
But it isn't possible anymore. I have yet to see any standard play using these pure styles. But the point still stands, you play differently.
How does forging Medivacs and Viking expand on Bio play? It Doesn't. Not to mention skipping Starport does not have the same implications on Terran as it does Protoss.
Protoss is a race divided by tech.
Protoss may have three production facilities but it is not those three that define them, it is what is beyond that. Fleet Beacon, Templar Archives/Dark Shrine and Support bay are significantly more meaningful than the Gateway, Robotics Facility and Stargate.
Gateways are still made en-mass lategame as Protoss regardless of which tree you take but what makes them meaningful is the Tech you have got along the way.
Stop trying to compare races so casually. Why things work for one race and not the other is because it is completely different race
so you think blizzard has been working nearly a year now on HotS, but there is a reason that protoss has NOT been given a reaper/hellion unit on gateway tech? I'm sure there was a contest in the developing team with the rules: First three units a single person comes up with, make it into the game for protoss. (lol) And sadly all those great, great units some of the guys had in mind didn't make it, because the dumbest of those guys sadly had the fastest handwriting...
It was one of exactly 2reasons, why Protoss didn't get this (terranlike) unit, that people like you want them to have: a) The unit didn't fit in the Protoss concept, so they didn't want Protoss to have it b) The unit couldn't be balanced, therefore was either overpowered without completly redesigning parts of the Protoss race; or so underpowered, that it would not have seen use anyway And I really don't blame them for that. Even if there was a way to implement such a unit and make it "protossish": Why do it, when they are planning to fix that "issue" in protoss gameplay anyway with mass recall? People keep focusing on why new units don't do what they want them to do, while blizzard is adding huge features all around the game. Who plays roaches without speed? Noone. Who plays hydras without speed? Noone. Maybe Hydras with speed will be playable! Who plays mass (blink) stalkers to harass a terran with concussive shells? Noone. Who plays them, when you can just blink in, kill something and teleport home? Maybe that is what people will do! Cliffwalking colossi, walking into a mineral line, focusing scvs and then being teleported home, once the viking fleet arrives. Oracles, whichever balancing they will have shutting down spores and turrets, so protoss air harass/dts do major damage.
Those are all possibilities how the game may work out. We don't know yet, but ignoring that it may work out like that, and saying that a protoss reaper unit would surely have a big harass role while the terran reaper unit does not, is just whining about/glorifying things that we don't know how they will/would turn out.
Recall will change a lot if it makes it into the game. I think a lot of people are expecting it to be scrapped or nerfed to the ground because it's really stupidly good. But if it does make it, then everything P has looks a lot better, including options like blink stalkers.
Tank units (Marauders), antiair units (Marines, Ghosts), Casters (Ghosts), Damage Dealers (Marines,Marauders), mineral dump units (Marines), harass units (Marines, Marauders) ??
Read the full comment. Also Marauders aren't tank units. They have 125life for 100/25 costs. Stimmed they have 105life. Zealots have 150life, 50 in shields and cost 100 (also lesser passive costs, because they don't require tech labs).
Marauder are tank units with medivac support, which are no baracks unit. Also Marines and Marauders are no harass units. Marine/Marauder drops are, which again requires a Starport.
I was hoping you would see how ignorant your argument is by by pointing out something in such a ridiculous fashion.
EDIT: I'm just going to make this simple.
Marines, Marauders, Stim, Combat Shield, Concussive Shell, Ghosts and Reapers are all T 1.5 Tech, but Templars, Archons, DT's, Blink and Charge are not. Terrans OFTEN tech safely to Starport tech on a SINGLE base where as Protoss can barely even tech to Templars on two.
Hell, by the time Protoss actually manages to get everything needed it is usually 20mins+ into the game on 3/4 bases.
Different races are different and you cannot simply compare something that comes out of a barracks to something that comes out of a Gateway because Protoss and Terran ARE NOT THE SAME
And when was the last time you have seen a Protoss win without Colossus? The unit is a necessity
We are talking about starcraft and not C&C, try again with a better argument. In C&C T3>T2>T1. In Starcraft not. All those Tier 1,2,3 arguments are just simplyfications to make talking about implied tech (costs) and time to get the tech out simpler. Example: + Show Spoiler +
150/0+150/100+150/100+50/25+150/150 = 650/375 are the passive costs for a battlecruiser. 250/0+150/100+150/100+250/200+100/150 = 900/550 are the passive costs for a broodlord. If we define battlecruiser as T3, then broodlords are T5.
But that's really not very useful when talking about nonmirror matchups. As long as you don't build Colossi, Templar or Carriers, "T1" Marines counter every protoss unit, no matter what "tier" they are. (I'm not saying that one can't rely on defensive mechanisms like FFs against them! But in direct engagments the marine wins) Just think about Mech ("T2" and "T3" mixture) in PvT and Bio ("T1" and "T2" mixture). Guess which one has proven to be playable and which hasn't?
Seriously? You harp on like one part of one line as my "argument"? I just used Tiers as an easy way to explain the relative timings.
The part where I explain how Terran often get to Starport tech one a single base where as Protoss generally only get to Templar by 3bases should have been enough.
And your use of Tiers is just as awful. That isn't even what I meant
But what does it matter than Mech hasn't been proven vs Protoss? Terran have a viable way to play that is extremely effective .
The point still stands, races aren't the same, you can't compare anything that comes from the barracks to anything that comes from the gateway, that isn't how the game is built
Because my argument doesn't fall if you replace "Tier X" with "starport tech". Also there are Protoss 2gate 1robo openings. Protoss dt openings. Protoss Stargate openings in PvT. (all of 1base)
And Protoss have viable ways to play play PvT, PvP and ZvP with or without colossi. (though I'd always say that in standard play you always want to be able to have each tech available in lategame) Terrans don't have viable ways to play TvP without Stargates. And they don't have viable ways to play lategame (=standard, else someone just made a mistake) TvZ or TvT on pure baracks. That's why I say that gateway is a more complete tech path than Barracks.
This is such a ridiculous argument
What does it matter that you have to produce a Starport? Protoss may have a tech tree that complements the gateway well but to reach that requires a 20min+ game. Terran can safely get to Starport on a single base. Not to mention in the current metagame it is no longer possible to play a soley gateway tech game
What defines play styles like Mech is HOW the style is played, not where the units are made.
And my point still stands: I'm pretty certain that due to the in the quotes mentioned arguments, "Protoss reapers" would have to suck even more than Terran reapers (and they suck pretty hard right now).
That is something play testing would decide
Really, "how something is played" is more important than where and from which tech it is made (my point all along)? So why do you keep arguing that Terrans can build a Starport of 1base, while protoss needs a 20min game to get all the tech they need to kill a complete bio composition. Matter of the fact is, that Protoss can play very active through all those 20mins. (with dts, with blink, with allins, with warp prisms) At least once you are high enough level to have a decent amount of multitasking for that.
Who says I'm complaining? I'm trying to make a point. The point YOU are complaining that Terran "have" to make a Starport is absolutely absurd
For the time gateway styles did work forging Colossus actually had a meaningful impact on the game. It allowed you to get MUCH faster upgrades, faster expos, defend drops easier and be much more active around the map as opposed to the turtle style of Colossus.
But it isn't possible anymore. I have yet to see any standard play using these pure styles. But the point still stands, you play differently.
How does forging Medivacs and Viking expand on Bio play? It Doesn't. Not to mention skipping Starport does not have the same implications on Terran as it does Protoss.
Protoss is a race divided by tech.
Protoss may have three production facilities but it is not those three that define them, it is what is beyond that. Fleet Beacon, Templar Archives/Dark Shrine and Support bay are significantly more meaningful than the Gateway, Robotics Facility and Stargate.
Gateways are still made en-mass lategame as Protoss regardless of which tree you take but what makes them meaningful is the Tech you have got along the way.
Stop trying to compare races so casually. Why things work for one race and not the other is because it is completely different race
so you think blizzard has been working nearly a year now on HotS, but there is a reason that protoss has NOT been given a reaper/hellion unit on gateway tech? I'm sure there was a contest in the developing team with the rules: First three units a single person comes up with, make it into the game for protoss. (lol) And sadly all those great, great units some of the guys had in mind didn't make it, because the dumbest of those guys sadly had the fastest handwriting...
It was one of exactly 2reasons, why Protoss didn't get this (terranlike) unit, that people like you want them to have: a) The unit didn't fit in the Protoss concept, so they didn't want Protoss to have it b) The unit couldn't be balanced, therefore was either overpowered without completly redesigning parts of the Protoss race; or so underpowered, that it would not have seen use anyway And I really don't blame them for that. Even if there was a way to implement such a unit and make it "protossish": Why do it, when they are planning to fix that "issue" in protoss gameplay anyway with mass recall? People keep focusing on why new units don't do what they want them to do, while blizzard is adding huge features all around the game. Who plays roaches without speed? Noone. Who plays hydras without speed? Noone. Maybe Hydras with speed will be playable! Who plays mass (blink) stalkers to harass a terran with concussive shells? Noone. Who plays them, when you can just blink in, kill something and teleport home? Maybe that is what people will do! Cliffwalking colossi, walking into a mineral line, focusing scvs and then being teleported home, once the viking fleet arrives. Oracles, whichever balancing they will have shutting down spores and turrets, so protoss air harass/dts do major damage.
Those are all possibilities how the game may work out. We don't know yet, but ignoring that it may work out like that, and saying that a protoss reaper unit would surely have a big harass role while the terran reaper unit does not, is just whining about/glorifying things that we don't know how they will/would turn out.
I actually like the Oracle, Replicant and Mass Recall. I think I must have been the only Protoss that did in the discussion thread--just check my post history. I think the Oracle is one of the more intelligently designed units in HOTS.
But for the most part, that is completely irrelevant to what we were going back and forth on.
Recall will change a lot if it makes it into the game. I think a lot of people are expecting it to be scrapped nerfed to the ground because it's really stupidly good. But if it does make it, then everything P has looks a lot better, including options like blink stalkers.
Yeah exactly. It will change how Protoss plays so much. That is why I'm skeptical on it making it in or not, it completely flips the race on its head.
On November 02 2011 21:15 Toadvine wrote:In any case, if HotS is supposed to add units that shore up weaknesses of the races, then the Terran and Zerg units do make sense in this context. Terran units serve to make mech a viable playstyle in all matchups, for example by giving Hellions the option to act as proper meatshields for Tanks. Zerg units allow them to break entrenched positions more easily, and generally achieve pressure without sacrificing tons of units. In light of this, the new Protoss units are a total joke, they don't solve Protoss problems at all. Well, you can Replicate a Siege Tank and maybe defend 1/1/1, so that's nice I suppose. :/
HotS is not supposed to do anything but sell well for blizzard. If you argue that further, it means that it should be interesting to buy it, so the game should be fun to play and balanced on high level of play. What the game doesn't need, is 3races that all have no weaknesses and play similar.
Races in SC2 aren't supposed to have no weaknesses and play similar. But they also aren't supposed to be WoW classes that are only good at one thing, and have glaring holes in their arsenal. The weaknesses we do want are the ones that produce interesting gameplay. Zerg not being able to break a turtling Terran even when at a huge advantage was a bad weakness that led to stupid games. An entire Terran tech tree being unusuable in TvP was a bad weakness, so units were added to help that.
Protoss had no effective means to harass in the early to mid game, and were extremely reliant on expensive tech to keep them on par with core Zerg/Terran units. This is a bad weakness, because it produces boring gameplay, where the Protoss sits in his base with no map control and just defends and masses up. So, units were added to help this... oh wait.
Stargate openings vs Zerg? It's just that it seems like this techpath isn't viable further. That's why they try to make it more viable. Also: why should they give Protoss a pure early(gateway) harassment unit, that is a) hard to balance, due to warp gates b) overlapping with the dt in later stages of the game c) something terrans have; zergs partly have (zerglings harass, but they are not a unit purely designed to do so); so giving it to protoss would just mean that they "want each race to open with hellions vs zerg". It's a unique thing to have hellion openings as terran. Don't let them ruin the game with each race having the same basic strategy, just with different units. d) not necessary if they already make a spell like mass recall, which will basically make your whole army a big harrassment composition
On November 02 2011 22:38 Toadvine wrote:
On November 02 2011 21:54 Big J wrote: Zergs and Terrans also don't just get units that counteract weaknesses that are intended to be there. But Mech was intended to be playable in TvP, giving them battlehellions and warhounds might fix that. Mass Thor in ZvT wasn't intended to be playable, that's why the Thor has to go and make space for a unit that is worse vs roaches. And Zerg was intended to be one of the more aggressive races. In the alpha and beta days when people weren't that great at that game, the general opinion was that zerg was THE pressuring race, running all over the place and denying expos. Protoss was intended to work well on Stargate tech, that's why they are trying to fix that with oracles and tempests. Also, Protoss ground tech gets HUGE buffs through the mass recall. Like artosis said: In the current state of the game, he would ALWAYS build an extra Nexus just to have ONE mass recall, because then he could just be out on the map and harass the hell out of everything, for 400 extra minerals...
Recall is actually one great thing about HotS, and is way better than our new units combined. I'd trade all of them just to keep the current Recall in the game, which will no doubt get nerfed hard at some point in the beta.
However, the point about Stargate tech is retarded. The problem with Stargate was that the units weren't very good in direct army vs army engagements. So, this problem is solved by adding a unit that doesn't attack, and a unit that is only good vs mass air?
So in SC:BW Protoss players only went corsairs because they were so good vs hydralisks? No. Zerg players go for mass muta play vs terran because they are obviously soooo strong vs marines the main unit in standard biomech compositions? HELL NO! The problem isn't that Stargate tech is bad in combats. The problem is that Stargate tech and the complete airfleet that a Protoss invested into becomes useless in the midgame. (unlike corsairs in SC:BW) An Oracle would definatly help, because an oracle does never get useless, assuming that it doesn't die from 3spore shots. A Tempest is at least a try to give Protoss a flaggship that is playable. The carrier is not. So it has to go. The Tempest is at least a unit that will be fooled around with anew, before people decide if it is viable or not.
Sorry, but at this point, I'm pretty sure you don't understand what you're talking about at all. The exact problem with Stargate, in both PvT and PvZ, is that if it doesn't do enough damage, it is simply awful for its cost in a direct army vs army fight. Do you know what good Zergs do when they see a Stargate opening? They spore up, make tons of drones to saturate 3 bases, and then just make a shitload of roaches and lings to deny the Protoss third. Do you know what Terrans do? They expand, go up to 5-6 raxes, and then push with stim/combat shields done, and kill the Protoss natural.
The problem is very clearly that the units aren't good enough. And you even bring up Mutalisks, the perfect example of how this kind of unit can work well. Mutas have amazing combat utility compared to Phoenix/VRs. In fact, Zerg players often continue massing Mutas throughout the whole game, just because of how good they are as a core army unit.
Stargate openings being standard in BW is kind of a moot point, since SC2 Protoss is way different from BW Protoss (in fact, SC2 Terran is more similar to BW Protoss).
NO. Stargate units not being core combat units is not the problem. Making them core combat units COULD BE a solution. Making them able to harass an opponent, pin him in his base and delay pushes, a much more interesting one. I play zerg at masters league, and I can tell you that if you go Mutalisks as "core army unit", you are fucked. Play a game with zerg and engage a Marineball with mutalisks... Engage a blinkstalker ball with mutalisks. Engage mass thor with mutalisks. THOSE are combat units (and the blinkstalker is already a harass/combat hybrid). You won't beat them. And it's the same with stargate units. You don't ENGAGE even armies of marines or hydralisks with them. You try to do damage in his base and pin him there. The fact simply is, that it is easy to deny this kind of harass most of the time. If the Oracle can make the harass continue, we will see PvZ with Protoss having mapcontrol... THAT would be a good way to improve Protoss gameplay. But I guess some players would rather just have more options to sacrifice units on mineral lines, then to improve good concepts that are out there right now, but too wacky to be called stable.
On November 02 2011 21:15 Toadvine wrote:In any case, if HotS is supposed to add units that shore up weaknesses of the races, then the Terran and Zerg units do make sense in this context. Terran units serve to make mech a viable playstyle in all matchups, for example by giving Hellions the option to act as proper meatshields for Tanks. Zerg units allow them to break entrenched positions more easily, and generally achieve pressure without sacrificing tons of units. In light of this, the new Protoss units are a total joke, they don't solve Protoss problems at all. Well, you can Replicate a Siege Tank and maybe defend 1/1/1, so that's nice I suppose. :/
HotS is not supposed to do anything but sell well for blizzard. If you argue that further, it means that it should be interesting to buy it, so the game should be fun to play and balanced on high level of play. What the game doesn't need, is 3races that all have no weaknesses and play similar.
Races in SC2 aren't supposed to have no weaknesses and play similar. But they also aren't supposed to be WoW classes that are only good at one thing, and have glaring holes in their arsenal. The weaknesses we do want are the ones that produce interesting gameplay. Zerg not being able to break a turtling Terran even when at a huge advantage was a bad weakness that led to stupid games. An entire Terran tech tree being unusuable in TvP was a bad weakness, so units were added to help that.
Protoss had no effective means to harass in the early to mid game, and were extremely reliant on expensive tech to keep them on par with core Zerg/Terran units. This is a bad weakness, because it produces boring gameplay, where the Protoss sits in his base with no map control and just defends and masses up. So, units were added to help this... oh wait.
Stargate openings vs Zerg? It's just that it seems like this techpath isn't viable further. That's why they try to make it more viable. Also: why should they give Protoss a pure early(gateway) harassment unit, that is a) hard to balance, due to warp gates b) overlapping with the dt in later stages of the game c) something terrans have; zergs partly have (zerglings harass, but they are not a unit purely designed to do so); so giving it to protoss would just mean that they "want each race to open with hellions vs zerg". It's a unique thing to have hellion openings as terran. Don't let them ruin the game with each race having the same basic strategy, just with different units. d) not necessary if they already make a spell like mass recall, which will basically make your whole army a big harrassment composition
On November 02 2011 22:38 Toadvine wrote:
On November 02 2011 21:54 Big J wrote: Zergs and Terrans also don't just get units that counteract weaknesses that are intended to be there. But Mech was intended to be playable in TvP, giving them battlehellions and warhounds might fix that. Mass Thor in ZvT wasn't intended to be playable, that's why the Thor has to go and make space for a unit that is worse vs roaches. And Zerg was intended to be one of the more aggressive races. In the alpha and beta days when people weren't that great at that game, the general opinion was that zerg was THE pressuring race, running all over the place and denying expos. Protoss was intended to work well on Stargate tech, that's why they are trying to fix that with oracles and tempests. Also, Protoss ground tech gets HUGE buffs through the mass recall. Like artosis said: In the current state of the game, he would ALWAYS build an extra Nexus just to have ONE mass recall, because then he could just be out on the map and harass the hell out of everything, for 400 extra minerals...
Recall is actually one great thing about HotS, and is way better than our new units combined. I'd trade all of them just to keep the current Recall in the game, which will no doubt get nerfed hard at some point in the beta.
However, the point about Stargate tech is retarded. The problem with Stargate was that the units weren't very good in direct army vs army engagements. So, this problem is solved by adding a unit that doesn't attack, and a unit that is only good vs mass air?
So in SC:BW Protoss players only went corsairs because they were so good vs hydralisks? No. Zerg players go for mass muta play vs terran because they are obviously soooo strong vs marines the main unit in standard biomech compositions? HELL NO! The problem isn't that Stargate tech is bad in combats. The problem is that Stargate tech and the complete airfleet that a Protoss invested into becomes useless in the midgame. (unlike corsairs in SC:BW) An Oracle would definatly help, because an oracle does never get useless, assuming that it doesn't die from 3spore shots. A Tempest is at least a try to give Protoss a flaggship that is playable. The carrier is not. So it has to go. The Tempest is at least a unit that will be fooled around with anew, before people decide if it is viable or not.
Sorry, but at this point, I'm pretty sure you don't understand what you're talking about at all. The exact problem with Stargate, in both PvT and PvZ, is that if it doesn't do enough damage, it is simply awful for its cost in a direct army vs army fight. Do you know what good Zergs do when they see a Stargate opening? They spore up, make tons of drones to saturate 3 bases, and then just make a shitload of roaches and lings to deny the Protoss third. Do you know what Terrans do? They expand, go up to 5-6 raxes, and then push with stim/combat shields done, and kill the Protoss natural.
The problem is very clearly that the units aren't good enough. And you even bring up Mutalisks, the perfect example of how this kind of unit can work well. Mutas have amazing combat utility compared to Phoenix/VRs. In fact, Zerg players often continue massing Mutas throughout the whole game, just because of how good they are as a core army unit.
Stargate openings being standard in BW is kind of a moot point, since SC2 Protoss is way different from BW Protoss (in fact, SC2 Terran is more similar to BW Protoss).
NO. Stargate units not being core combat units is not the problem. Making them core combat units COULD BE a solution. Making them able to harass an opponent, pin him in his base and delay pushes, a much more interesting one. I play zerg at masters league, and I can tell you that if you go Mutalisks as "core army unit", you are fucked. Play a game with zerg and engage a Marineball with mutalisks... Engage a blinkstalker ball with mutalisks. Engage mass thor with mutalisks. THOSE are combat units (and the blinkstalker is already a harass/combat hybrid). You won't beat them. And it's the same with stargate units. You don't ENGAGE even armies of marines or hydralisks with them. You try to do damage in his base and pin him there. The fact simply is, that it is easy to deny this kind of harass most of the time. If the Oracle can make the harass continue, we will see PvZ with Protoss having mapcontrol... THAT would be a good way to improve Protoss gameplay. But I guess some players would rather just have more options to sacrifice units on mineral lines, then to improve good concepts that are out there right now, but too wacky to be called stable.
Let's not pretend that mutas don't have combat value. Mutas aren't bad against stalkers (when factoring in the resource advantage Z gets due to his map control) and they're an essential component for defending marine-tank pushes.
Mutas, like banshees, are not strong for cost in combat, but they're a lot better than phoenixes. The oracle, as proposed, is way behind the phoenix.
I guess the biggest problem is that Blizzard has no idea what do to, there are tons of harassments you can do as a toss, but no one wants to use it, because it costs micro and you cannot afford to lose it. Sounds like mutas to me. Anyway toss was always the race that defended their territory and teched up behind it, that way they could get an advantage. What could you do in bw, get dts get corsairs (they don't even have a ground attack) tech up to reaver shuttle. (reaver have 1 nice upgrade and shuttle also have one + you need observer tech as well, and you can lose your shuttle to one wraith (they are out at the same time and have a chance to intercept the shuttle over no drop land)). Sounds to me exactly like the protoss in sc2 and i like them that way. To bad Blizzard listens to the community and wants to go away from the protoss deathball, made the race so cool to play and fight against in bw. I wish they would never have made air tech viable in sc2 and would have left it a nice gimmick. Currently you can't build a ground based army since most races can just do a sudden air switch for a few ressources and fight the anti air head on.
I don't think all 3 toss units will make it live, the tempest is probably the only one. Harassment wise the biggest change is the toss ability to recall units midgame now making the warp prism more scary, being able to warp in a small army and save it at the same time, just at the cost of a few chrono boosts. Also increases the chance to win a basetrade scenario or atleast able to turn around. Oracle is nice to get early game and harass over the whole game. Don't have an issue with them they will work just fine if you don't want to go for timing attacks. I will still prefer the phoenix and warp prism though, but if i ever manage to control another unit aside i will of course get the oracle. Just start to think like a dieing high tech race, they don't throw lives away like you want them too.
Oh and i will get them off course against the zerg late game spine wall, since the mothership will be gone, the only way to get around that.
On November 03 2011 00:21 kcdc wrote: Reavers replacing colossi would be good. Reavers wouldn't be countered by vikings, so in order to shut down the harass, Terran would need to make units that are suboptimal in combat. SC2 Terran would still have an easier time getting a viking than SC1 Terran has getting a wraith, but it'd be a step forward for Protoss harass.
It would probably also be imbalanced as hell because splash is way stronger in SC2 than it is in SC1.
Lol, I would like to see you whine when you lose your warp prism with two reavers in it to vikings. Getting an old unit back will not solve the harassment problem that you feel, which would also be countered by vikings if we are brute, you got like 4 vikings 2 at the base 2 at the nat ( assuming early game harass), and you are can not harass if you do not want to risk your warp prism and your reavers. It will not work as in sc1.
Colossus is much better at forcing suboptimal units like vikings, which does not provide any real help in the ground battle.
On November 02 2011 21:15 Toadvine wrote:In any case, if HotS is supposed to add units that shore up weaknesses of the races, then the Terran and Zerg units do make sense in this context. Terran units serve to make mech a viable playstyle in all matchups, for example by giving Hellions the option to act as proper meatshields for Tanks. Zerg units allow them to break entrenched positions more easily, and generally achieve pressure without sacrificing tons of units. In light of this, the new Protoss units are a total joke, they don't solve Protoss problems at all. Well, you can Replicate a Siege Tank and maybe defend 1/1/1, so that's nice I suppose. :/
HotS is not supposed to do anything but sell well for blizzard. If you argue that further, it means that it should be interesting to buy it, so the game should be fun to play and balanced on high level of play. What the game doesn't need, is 3races that all have no weaknesses and play similar.
Races in SC2 aren't supposed to have no weaknesses and play similar. But they also aren't supposed to be WoW classes that are only good at one thing, and have glaring holes in their arsenal. The weaknesses we do want are the ones that produce interesting gameplay. Zerg not being able to break a turtling Terran even when at a huge advantage was a bad weakness that led to stupid games. An entire Terran tech tree being unusuable in TvP was a bad weakness, so units were added to help that.
Protoss had no effective means to harass in the early to mid game, and were extremely reliant on expensive tech to keep them on par with core Zerg/Terran units. This is a bad weakness, because it produces boring gameplay, where the Protoss sits in his base with no map control and just defends and masses up. So, units were added to help this... oh wait.
Stargate openings vs Zerg? It's just that it seems like this techpath isn't viable further. That's why they try to make it more viable. Also: why should they give Protoss a pure early(gateway) harassment unit, that is a) hard to balance, due to warp gates b) overlapping with the dt in later stages of the game c) something terrans have; zergs partly have (zerglings harass, but they are not a unit purely designed to do so); so giving it to protoss would just mean that they "want each race to open with hellions vs zerg". It's a unique thing to have hellion openings as terran. Don't let them ruin the game with each race having the same basic strategy, just with different units. d) not necessary if they already make a spell like mass recall, which will basically make your whole army a big harrassment composition
On November 02 2011 22:38 Toadvine wrote:
On November 02 2011 21:54 Big J wrote: Zergs and Terrans also don't just get units that counteract weaknesses that are intended to be there. But Mech was intended to be playable in TvP, giving them battlehellions and warhounds might fix that. Mass Thor in ZvT wasn't intended to be playable, that's why the Thor has to go and make space for a unit that is worse vs roaches. And Zerg was intended to be one of the more aggressive races. In the alpha and beta days when people weren't that great at that game, the general opinion was that zerg was THE pressuring race, running all over the place and denying expos. Protoss was intended to work well on Stargate tech, that's why they are trying to fix that with oracles and tempests. Also, Protoss ground tech gets HUGE buffs through the mass recall. Like artosis said: In the current state of the game, he would ALWAYS build an extra Nexus just to have ONE mass recall, because then he could just be out on the map and harass the hell out of everything, for 400 extra minerals...
Recall is actually one great thing about HotS, and is way better than our new units combined. I'd trade all of them just to keep the current Recall in the game, which will no doubt get nerfed hard at some point in the beta.
However, the point about Stargate tech is retarded. The problem with Stargate was that the units weren't very good in direct army vs army engagements. So, this problem is solved by adding a unit that doesn't attack, and a unit that is only good vs mass air?
So in SC:BW Protoss players only went corsairs because they were so good vs hydralisks? No. Zerg players go for mass muta play vs terran because they are obviously soooo strong vs marines the main unit in standard biomech compositions? HELL NO! The problem isn't that Stargate tech is bad in combats. The problem is that Stargate tech and the complete airfleet that a Protoss invested into becomes useless in the midgame. (unlike corsairs in SC:BW) An Oracle would definatly help, because an oracle does never get useless, assuming that it doesn't die from 3spore shots. A Tempest is at least a try to give Protoss a flaggship that is playable. The carrier is not. So it has to go. The Tempest is at least a unit that will be fooled around with anew, before people decide if it is viable or not.
Sorry, but at this point, I'm pretty sure you don't understand what you're talking about at all. The exact problem with Stargate, in both PvT and PvZ, is that if it doesn't do enough damage, it is simply awful for its cost in a direct army vs army fight. Do you know what good Zergs do when they see a Stargate opening? They spore up, make tons of drones to saturate 3 bases, and then just make a shitload of roaches and lings to deny the Protoss third. Do you know what Terrans do? They expand, go up to 5-6 raxes, and then push with stim/combat shields done, and kill the Protoss natural.
The problem is very clearly that the units aren't good enough. And you even bring up Mutalisks, the perfect example of how this kind of unit can work well. Mutas have amazing combat utility compared to Phoenix/VRs. In fact, Zerg players often continue massing Mutas throughout the whole game, just because of how good they are as a core army unit.
Stargate openings being standard in BW is kind of a moot point, since SC2 Protoss is way different from BW Protoss (in fact, SC2 Terran is more similar to BW Protoss).
NO. Stargate units not being core combat units is not the problem. Making them core combat units COULD BE a solution. Making them able to harass an opponent, pin him in his base and delay pushes, a much more interesting one. I play zerg at masters league, and I can tell you that if you go Mutalisks as "core army unit", you are fucked. Play a game with zerg and engage a Marineball with mutalisks... Engage a blinkstalker ball with mutalisks. Engage mass thor with mutalisks. THOSE are combat units (and the blinkstalker is already a harass/combat hybrid). You won't beat them. And it's the same with stargate units. You don't ENGAGE even armies of marines or hydralisks with them. You try to do damage in his base and pin him there. The fact simply is, that it is easy to deny this kind of harass most of the time. If the Oracle can make the harass continue, we will see PvZ with Protoss having mapcontrol... THAT would be a good way to improve Protoss gameplay. But I guess some players would rather just have more options to sacrifice units on mineral lines, then to improve good concepts that are out there right now, but too wacky to be called stable.
Yeah, and if you engage a marine ball with just medivacs, they'll all die without killing a thing. Medivac not a core combat unit!
I think you're just being contrary for the sake of it right now. The fact that Mutas lose cost-for-cost to Marines when a-moved into each other, does not mean they're not core units. I mean, every single TvZ, you see Terran push with Marines and Tanks, and Zerg delay, try to snipe Tanks and wayward marines, and then finally engage with lings/blings, with Mutas following them. In an ideal world, the Mutas clean up, and then go back to harassing.
The same isn't true about Phoenix, for instance. It really doesn't matter how much you harass him, if you can't hold the counter.
On November 02 2011 21:15 Toadvine wrote:In any case, if HotS is supposed to add units that shore up weaknesses of the races, then the Terran and Zerg units do make sense in this context. Terran units serve to make mech a viable playstyle in all matchups, for example by giving Hellions the option to act as proper meatshields for Tanks. Zerg units allow them to break entrenched positions more easily, and generally achieve pressure without sacrificing tons of units. In light of this, the new Protoss units are a total joke, they don't solve Protoss problems at all. Well, you can Replicate a Siege Tank and maybe defend 1/1/1, so that's nice I suppose. :/
HotS is not supposed to do anything but sell well for blizzard. If you argue that further, it means that it should be interesting to buy it, so the game should be fun to play and balanced on high level of play. What the game doesn't need, is 3races that all have no weaknesses and play similar.
Races in SC2 aren't supposed to have no weaknesses and play similar. But they also aren't supposed to be WoW classes that are only good at one thing, and have glaring holes in their arsenal. The weaknesses we do want are the ones that produce interesting gameplay. Zerg not being able to break a turtling Terran even when at a huge advantage was a bad weakness that led to stupid games. An entire Terran tech tree being unusuable in TvP was a bad weakness, so units were added to help that.
Protoss had no effective means to harass in the early to mid game, and were extremely reliant on expensive tech to keep them on par with core Zerg/Terran units. This is a bad weakness, because it produces boring gameplay, where the Protoss sits in his base with no map control and just defends and masses up. So, units were added to help this... oh wait.
Stargate openings vs Zerg? It's just that it seems like this techpath isn't viable further. That's why they try to make it more viable. Also: why should they give Protoss a pure early(gateway) harassment unit, that is a) hard to balance, due to warp gates b) overlapping with the dt in later stages of the game c) something terrans have; zergs partly have (zerglings harass, but they are not a unit purely designed to do so); so giving it to protoss would just mean that they "want each race to open with hellions vs zerg". It's a unique thing to have hellion openings as terran. Don't let them ruin the game with each race having the same basic strategy, just with different units. d) not necessary if they already make a spell like mass recall, which will basically make your whole army a big harrassment composition
On November 02 2011 22:38 Toadvine wrote:
On November 02 2011 21:54 Big J wrote: Zergs and Terrans also don't just get units that counteract weaknesses that are intended to be there. But Mech was intended to be playable in TvP, giving them battlehellions and warhounds might fix that. Mass Thor in ZvT wasn't intended to be playable, that's why the Thor has to go and make space for a unit that is worse vs roaches. And Zerg was intended to be one of the more aggressive races. In the alpha and beta days when people weren't that great at that game, the general opinion was that zerg was THE pressuring race, running all over the place and denying expos. Protoss was intended to work well on Stargate tech, that's why they are trying to fix that with oracles and tempests. Also, Protoss ground tech gets HUGE buffs through the mass recall. Like artosis said: In the current state of the game, he would ALWAYS build an extra Nexus just to have ONE mass recall, because then he could just be out on the map and harass the hell out of everything, for 400 extra minerals...
Recall is actually one great thing about HotS, and is way better than our new units combined. I'd trade all of them just to keep the current Recall in the game, which will no doubt get nerfed hard at some point in the beta.
However, the point about Stargate tech is retarded. The problem with Stargate was that the units weren't very good in direct army vs army engagements. So, this problem is solved by adding a unit that doesn't attack, and a unit that is only good vs mass air?
So in SC:BW Protoss players only went corsairs because they were so good vs hydralisks? No. Zerg players go for mass muta play vs terran because they are obviously soooo strong vs marines the main unit in standard biomech compositions? HELL NO! The problem isn't that Stargate tech is bad in combats. The problem is that Stargate tech and the complete airfleet that a Protoss invested into becomes useless in the midgame. (unlike corsairs in SC:BW) An Oracle would definatly help, because an oracle does never get useless, assuming that it doesn't die from 3spore shots. A Tempest is at least a try to give Protoss a flaggship that is playable. The carrier is not. So it has to go. The Tempest is at least a unit that will be fooled around with anew, before people decide if it is viable or not.
Sorry, but at this point, I'm pretty sure you don't understand what you're talking about at all. The exact problem with Stargate, in both PvT and PvZ, is that if it doesn't do enough damage, it is simply awful for its cost in a direct army vs army fight. Do you know what good Zergs do when they see a Stargate opening? They spore up, make tons of drones to saturate 3 bases, and then just make a shitload of roaches and lings to deny the Protoss third. Do you know what Terrans do? They expand, go up to 5-6 raxes, and then push with stim/combat shields done, and kill the Protoss natural.
The problem is very clearly that the units aren't good enough. And you even bring up Mutalisks, the perfect example of how this kind of unit can work well. Mutas have amazing combat utility compared to Phoenix/VRs. In fact, Zerg players often continue massing Mutas throughout the whole game, just because of how good they are as a core army unit.
Stargate openings being standard in BW is kind of a moot point, since SC2 Protoss is way different from BW Protoss (in fact, SC2 Terran is more similar to BW Protoss).
NO. Stargate units not being core combat units is not the problem. Making them core combat units COULD BE a solution. Making them able to harass an opponent, pin him in his base and delay pushes, a much more interesting one. I play zerg at masters league, and I can tell you that if you go Mutalisks as "core army unit", you are fucked. Play a game with zerg and engage a Marineball with mutalisks... Engage a blinkstalker ball with mutalisks. Engage mass thor with mutalisks. THOSE are combat units (and the blinkstalker is already a harass/combat hybrid). You won't beat them. And it's the same with stargate units. You don't ENGAGE even armies of marines or hydralisks with them. You try to do damage in his base and pin him there. The fact simply is, that it is easy to deny this kind of harass most of the time. If the Oracle can make the harass continue, we will see PvZ with Protoss having mapcontrol... THAT would be a good way to improve Protoss gameplay. But I guess some players would rather just have more options to sacrifice units on mineral lines, then to improve good concepts that are out there right now, but too wacky to be called stable.
Let's not pretend that mutas don't have combat value. Mutas aren't bad against stalkers (when factoring in the resource advantage Z gets due to his map control) and they're an essential component for defending marine-tank pushes.
Mutas, like banshees, are not strong for cost in combat, but they're a lot better than phoenixes. The oracle, as proposed, is way behind the phoenix.
That's not what I said. But the value mutas have in combat comes completly from them being fast air units. True that mutas are way better vs marines than phoenix and therefore it is just useless to compare Phoenix/zealot to muta/ling when fighting against tank/marine. But when I know that a push is coming, I'm not going to make more mutas. I'm morphing more banelings. I'm building more zerglings. Mutas main use lies in between combats. Phoenix in PvZ are really compareable to mutalisks to this (of course in lower numbers in earlier phases of the game): You do the initial harass, you force anti air, you slow him down, you prevent him from going out on the map. The difference now is, that no matter how many phoenixes you have, you can't kill spores, so there comes the point, when Zerg can just gather all hydralisks and attack and Protoss can't counterattack with his phoenix. Now imagine if the moment a zerg gathers his hydralisks, 1-2oracles fly into the mineral line, deactivate all spores and the phoenix kill all the drones and the queen. Then they fly home and help defending vs hydralisks. Armies get traded, but unlike in WOL, this isn't terrible for Protoss, because he is taking a third and zerg only has 2mining bases and even those get harrassed by entombs, which maybe don't pay for the oracle immidiatly, but they do good damage to a zerg that has no units (he just traded) and is redroning his base. Wouldn't that be a good use of Protoss air openings, unlike now where you see the push out, you have plenty of time to fly home with your phoenix, but you just do it right away, because there is no use in keeping them in his base anymore. Of course just flat out killing 20drones early with a ninja-reaper-with-splashdamage might set you up in the same situation, but how do you guarantee that it does kill only 20drones? And how do you argue, that it is a good unit that is playable through all game, if it's only viability should be to make Protoss come out on even economy with zerg/terran in the midgame...
On November 02 2011 21:15 Toadvine wrote:In any case, if HotS is supposed to add units that shore up weaknesses of the races, then the Terran and Zerg units do make sense in this context. Terran units serve to make mech a viable playstyle in all matchups, for example by giving Hellions the option to act as proper meatshields for Tanks. Zerg units allow them to break entrenched positions more easily, and generally achieve pressure without sacrificing tons of units. In light of this, the new Protoss units are a total joke, they don't solve Protoss problems at all. Well, you can Replicate a Siege Tank and maybe defend 1/1/1, so that's nice I suppose. :/
HotS is not supposed to do anything but sell well for blizzard. If you argue that further, it means that it should be interesting to buy it, so the game should be fun to play and balanced on high level of play. What the game doesn't need, is 3races that all have no weaknesses and play similar.
Races in SC2 aren't supposed to have no weaknesses and play similar. But they also aren't supposed to be WoW classes that are only good at one thing, and have glaring holes in their arsenal. The weaknesses we do want are the ones that produce interesting gameplay. Zerg not being able to break a turtling Terran even when at a huge advantage was a bad weakness that led to stupid games. An entire Terran tech tree being unusuable in TvP was a bad weakness, so units were added to help that.
Protoss had no effective means to harass in the early to mid game, and were extremely reliant on expensive tech to keep them on par with core Zerg/Terran units. This is a bad weakness, because it produces boring gameplay, where the Protoss sits in his base with no map control and just defends and masses up. So, units were added to help this... oh wait.
Stargate openings vs Zerg? It's just that it seems like this techpath isn't viable further. That's why they try to make it more viable. Also: why should they give Protoss a pure early(gateway) harassment unit, that is a) hard to balance, due to warp gates b) overlapping with the dt in later stages of the game c) something terrans have; zergs partly have (zerglings harass, but they are not a unit purely designed to do so); so giving it to protoss would just mean that they "want each race to open with hellions vs zerg". It's a unique thing to have hellion openings as terran. Don't let them ruin the game with each race having the same basic strategy, just with different units. d) not necessary if they already make a spell like mass recall, which will basically make your whole army a big harrassment composition
On November 02 2011 22:38 Toadvine wrote:
On November 02 2011 21:54 Big J wrote: Zergs and Terrans also don't just get units that counteract weaknesses that are intended to be there. But Mech was intended to be playable in TvP, giving them battlehellions and warhounds might fix that. Mass Thor in ZvT wasn't intended to be playable, that's why the Thor has to go and make space for a unit that is worse vs roaches. And Zerg was intended to be one of the more aggressive races. In the alpha and beta days when people weren't that great at that game, the general opinion was that zerg was THE pressuring race, running all over the place and denying expos. Protoss was intended to work well on Stargate tech, that's why they are trying to fix that with oracles and tempests. Also, Protoss ground tech gets HUGE buffs through the mass recall. Like artosis said: In the current state of the game, he would ALWAYS build an extra Nexus just to have ONE mass recall, because then he could just be out on the map and harass the hell out of everything, for 400 extra minerals...
Recall is actually one great thing about HotS, and is way better than our new units combined. I'd trade all of them just to keep the current Recall in the game, which will no doubt get nerfed hard at some point in the beta.
However, the point about Stargate tech is retarded. The problem with Stargate was that the units weren't very good in direct army vs army engagements. So, this problem is solved by adding a unit that doesn't attack, and a unit that is only good vs mass air?
So in SC:BW Protoss players only went corsairs because they were so good vs hydralisks? No. Zerg players go for mass muta play vs terran because they are obviously soooo strong vs marines the main unit in standard biomech compositions? HELL NO! The problem isn't that Stargate tech is bad in combats. The problem is that Stargate tech and the complete airfleet that a Protoss invested into becomes useless in the midgame. (unlike corsairs in SC:BW) An Oracle would definatly help, because an oracle does never get useless, assuming that it doesn't die from 3spore shots. A Tempest is at least a try to give Protoss a flaggship that is playable. The carrier is not. So it has to go. The Tempest is at least a unit that will be fooled around with anew, before people decide if it is viable or not.
Sorry, but at this point, I'm pretty sure you don't understand what you're talking about at all. The exact problem with Stargate, in both PvT and PvZ, is that if it doesn't do enough damage, it is simply awful for its cost in a direct army vs army fight. Do you know what good Zergs do when they see a Stargate opening? They spore up, make tons of drones to saturate 3 bases, and then just make a shitload of roaches and lings to deny the Protoss third. Do you know what Terrans do? They expand, go up to 5-6 raxes, and then push with stim/combat shields done, and kill the Protoss natural.
The problem is very clearly that the units aren't good enough. And you even bring up Mutalisks, the perfect example of how this kind of unit can work well. Mutas have amazing combat utility compared to Phoenix/VRs. In fact, Zerg players often continue massing Mutas throughout the whole game, just because of how good they are as a core army unit.
Stargate openings being standard in BW is kind of a moot point, since SC2 Protoss is way different from BW Protoss (in fact, SC2 Terran is more similar to BW Protoss).
NO. Stargate units not being core combat units is not the problem. Making them core combat units COULD BE a solution. Making them able to harass an opponent, pin him in his base and delay pushes, a much more interesting one. I play zerg at masters league, and I can tell you that if you go Mutalisks as "core army unit", you are fucked. Play a game with zerg and engage a Marineball with mutalisks... Engage a blinkstalker ball with mutalisks. Engage mass thor with mutalisks. THOSE are combat units (and the blinkstalker is already a harass/combat hybrid). You won't beat them. And it's the same with stargate units. You don't ENGAGE even armies of marines or hydralisks with them. You try to do damage in his base and pin him there. The fact simply is, that it is easy to deny this kind of harass most of the time. If the Oracle can make the harass continue, we will see PvZ with Protoss having mapcontrol... THAT would be a good way to improve Protoss gameplay. But I guess some players would rather just have more options to sacrifice units on mineral lines, then to improve good concepts that are out there right now, but too wacky to be called stable.
Yeah, and if you engage a marine ball with just medivacs, they'll all die without killing a thing. Medivac not a core combat unit!
I think you're just being contrary for the sake of it right now. The fact that Mutas lose cost-for-cost to Marines when a-moved into each other, does not mean they're not core units. I mean, every single TvZ, you see Terran push with Marines and Tanks, and Zerg delay, try to snipe Tanks and wayward marines, and then finally engage with lings/blings, with Mutas following them. In an ideal world, the Mutas clean up, and then go back to harassing.
The same isn't true about Phoenix, for instance. It really doesn't matter how much you harass him, if you can't hold the counter.
Phoenixes are seen as good tank counter. You just don't see tanks vs Protoss...
wow i cant believe theres still threads like this. The oracle is amazing! People are just not thinking of the applications. I for one cant wait to oracle storm drop people. entomb the mineral patches to clump of the workers, storm everything and pick up and leave. this unit is gonna be fun as hell
a dedicated harras based on energy does not work, because of 2 things.
1- the oracle is a expensive harras based on energy, when it runs out of energy, it represent no treat to the enemy so, he can leave his base and kill you with a counter attack, your stargate+oracle is not going to help defend this... a harras unit that IS NOT based on energy, can always come back and so, they can pin the enemy in his base... the oracle can't do this, it is a 100% dedicated harras, that can not pin the oponent to his base and can not help you defend the counter attack.
2- you can always just ignore the oracle and go fucking kill your oponent, the harras potential of oracle is limited to it energy, so if you leave it in your base, it has a limited amount of damage it can do, while if you leave a MMM drop free in your base and go counter attack, the damage it can do is almost limitless...
PS: they can always make it OP, so it will work anyways...
On November 03 2011 00:21 kcdc wrote: Reavers replacing colossi would be good. Reavers wouldn't be countered by vikings, so in order to shut down the harass, Terran would need to make units that are suboptimal in combat. SC2 Terran would still have an easier time getting a viking than SC1 Terran has getting a wraith, but it'd be a step forward for Protoss harass.
It would probably also be imbalanced as hell because splash is way stronger in SC2 than it is in SC1.
Lol, I would like to see you whine when you lose your warp prism with two reavers in it to vikings. Getting an old unit back will not solve the harassment problem that you feel, which would also be countered by vikings if we are brute, you got like 4 vikings 2 at the base 2 at the nat ( assuming early game harass), and you are can not harass if you do not want to risk your warp prism and your reavers. It will not work as in sc1.
Colossus is much better at forcing suboptimal units like vikings, which does not provide any real help in the ground battle.
If he builds 4 vikings you don't drop his bases but you push his front with your reavers, simple as that and he's probably in deep shit after spending that money on those vikings.
On November 03 2011 01:15 RedMosquito wrote: wow i cant believe theres still threads like this. The oracle is amazing! People are just not thinking of the applications. I for one cant wait to oracle storm drop people. entomb the mineral patches to clump of the workers, storm everything and pick up and leave. this unit is gonna be fun as hell
You mean just like people are dropping sentries/templars and doing the same thing right now? Oh no they don't because it's not actually a practical thing to do.
On November 02 2011 14:25 kcdc wrote:Second, the tempest is the perfect complement to a colossus deathball since it kills corruptors and vikings.
Ooooh.... I don't think so. The way they presented it, it's mostly a flying Thor, and It's gonna get kited by vikings and out-dpsed by corrupters (which are going to counter it as they do every capital ship).
Yeah I need to agree, the tempest is just a BIG slow, flying thor. A unit they decided didn't warrant remaining in the game as a basic unit and is now going to be the new mothership. I also don't think we need "hero" units in this game either.
On November 03 2011 01:15 rpgalon wrote: a dedicated harras based on energy does not work, because of 2 things.
1- the oracle is a expensive harras based on energy, when it runs out of energy, it represent no treat to the enemy so, he can leave his base and kill you with a counter attack, your stargate+oracle is not going to help defend this... a harras unit that IS NOT based on energy, can always come back and so, they can pin the enemy in his base... the oracle can't do this, it is a 100% dedicated harras, that can not pin the oponent to his base and can not help you defend the counter attack.
2- you can always just ignore the oracle and go fucking kill your oponent, the harras potential of oracle is limited to it energy, so if you leave it in your base, it has a limited amount of damage it can do, while if you leave a MMM drop free in your base and go counter attack, the damage it can do is almost limitless...
PS: they can always make it OP, so it will work anyways...
1) yeah, like those burrowed infestors totally don't work, once they run out of energy. It's not like they can just pop out infested terrans in a minute again... Totally not.. 2) yeah, because investing into one oracle, leaves a Protoss completly without units. His Zealots will suddenly not attack anymore and his stalkers will try to chase butterflies around, rather than shoot at the uncooridinated "timing" you just invented, because you saw an oracle
PS: They can always make it so, that it is balanced. But I guess you're one of the kind: "marines are imba, because they are better than even (cost and supply) amounts of zerglings and zealots"
On November 03 2011 01:15 RedMosquito wrote: wow i cant believe theres still threads like this. The oracle is amazing! People are just not thinking of the applications. I for one cant wait to oracle storm drop people. entomb the mineral patches to clump of the workers, storm everything and pick up and leave. this unit is gonna be fun as hell
Have you tried it out? WhiteRa was at Blizzcon and he did, and he was pretty critical of the Oracle on his stream.
On November 02 2011 21:15 Toadvine wrote:In any case, if HotS is supposed to add units that shore up weaknesses of the races, then the Terran and Zerg units do make sense in this context. Terran units serve to make mech a viable playstyle in all matchups, for example by giving Hellions the option to act as proper meatshields for Tanks. Zerg units allow them to break entrenched positions more easily, and generally achieve pressure without sacrificing tons of units. In light of this, the new Protoss units are a total joke, they don't solve Protoss problems at all. Well, you can Replicate a Siege Tank and maybe defend 1/1/1, so that's nice I suppose. :/
HotS is not supposed to do anything but sell well for blizzard. If you argue that further, it means that it should be interesting to buy it, so the game should be fun to play and balanced on high level of play. What the game doesn't need, is 3races that all have no weaknesses and play similar.
Races in SC2 aren't supposed to have no weaknesses and play similar. But they also aren't supposed to be WoW classes that are only good at one thing, and have glaring holes in their arsenal. The weaknesses we do want are the ones that produce interesting gameplay. Zerg not being able to break a turtling Terran even when at a huge advantage was a bad weakness that led to stupid games. An entire Terran tech tree being unusuable in TvP was a bad weakness, so units were added to help that.
Protoss had no effective means to harass in the early to mid game, and were extremely reliant on expensive tech to keep them on par with core Zerg/Terran units. This is a bad weakness, because it produces boring gameplay, where the Protoss sits in his base with no map control and just defends and masses up. So, units were added to help this... oh wait.
Stargate openings vs Zerg? It's just that it seems like this techpath isn't viable further. That's why they try to make it more viable. Also: why should they give Protoss a pure early(gateway) harassment unit, that is a) hard to balance, due to warp gates b) overlapping with the dt in later stages of the game c) something terrans have; zergs partly have (zerglings harass, but they are not a unit purely designed to do so); so giving it to protoss would just mean that they "want each race to open with hellions vs zerg". It's a unique thing to have hellion openings as terran. Don't let them ruin the game with each race having the same basic strategy, just with different units. d) not necessary if they already make a spell like mass recall, which will basically make your whole army a big harrassment composition
On November 02 2011 22:38 Toadvine wrote:
On November 02 2011 21:54 Big J wrote: Zergs and Terrans also don't just get units that counteract weaknesses that are intended to be there. But Mech was intended to be playable in TvP, giving them battlehellions and warhounds might fix that. Mass Thor in ZvT wasn't intended to be playable, that's why the Thor has to go and make space for a unit that is worse vs roaches. And Zerg was intended to be one of the more aggressive races. In the alpha and beta days when people weren't that great at that game, the general opinion was that zerg was THE pressuring race, running all over the place and denying expos. Protoss was intended to work well on Stargate tech, that's why they are trying to fix that with oracles and tempests. Also, Protoss ground tech gets HUGE buffs through the mass recall. Like artosis said: In the current state of the game, he would ALWAYS build an extra Nexus just to have ONE mass recall, because then he could just be out on the map and harass the hell out of everything, for 400 extra minerals...
Recall is actually one great thing about HotS, and is way better than our new units combined. I'd trade all of them just to keep the current Recall in the game, which will no doubt get nerfed hard at some point in the beta.
However, the point about Stargate tech is retarded. The problem with Stargate was that the units weren't very good in direct army vs army engagements. So, this problem is solved by adding a unit that doesn't attack, and a unit that is only good vs mass air?
So in SC:BW Protoss players only went corsairs because they were so good vs hydralisks? No. Zerg players go for mass muta play vs terran because they are obviously soooo strong vs marines the main unit in standard biomech compositions? HELL NO! The problem isn't that Stargate tech is bad in combats. The problem is that Stargate tech and the complete airfleet that a Protoss invested into becomes useless in the midgame. (unlike corsairs in SC:BW) An Oracle would definatly help, because an oracle does never get useless, assuming that it doesn't die from 3spore shots. A Tempest is at least a try to give Protoss a flaggship that is playable. The carrier is not. So it has to go. The Tempest is at least a unit that will be fooled around with anew, before people decide if it is viable or not.
Sorry, but at this point, I'm pretty sure you don't understand what you're talking about at all. The exact problem with Stargate, in both PvT and PvZ, is that if it doesn't do enough damage, it is simply awful for its cost in a direct army vs army fight. Do you know what good Zergs do when they see a Stargate opening? They spore up, make tons of drones to saturate 3 bases, and then just make a shitload of roaches and lings to deny the Protoss third. Do you know what Terrans do? They expand, go up to 5-6 raxes, and then push with stim/combat shields done, and kill the Protoss natural.
The problem is very clearly that the units aren't good enough. And you even bring up Mutalisks, the perfect example of how this kind of unit can work well. Mutas have amazing combat utility compared to Phoenix/VRs. In fact, Zerg players often continue massing Mutas throughout the whole game, just because of how good they are as a core army unit.
Stargate openings being standard in BW is kind of a moot point, since SC2 Protoss is way different from BW Protoss (in fact, SC2 Terran is more similar to BW Protoss).
NO. Stargate units not being core combat units is not the problem. Making them core combat units COULD BE a solution. Making them able to harass an opponent, pin him in his base and delay pushes, a much more interesting one. I play zerg at masters league, and I can tell you that if you go Mutalisks as "core army unit", you are fucked. Play a game with zerg and engage a Marineball with mutalisks... Engage a blinkstalker ball with mutalisks. Engage mass thor with mutalisks. THOSE are combat units (and the blinkstalker is already a harass/combat hybrid). You won't beat them. And it's the same with stargate units. You don't ENGAGE even armies of marines or hydralisks with them. You try to do damage in his base and pin him there. The fact simply is, that it is easy to deny this kind of harass most of the time. If the Oracle can make the harass continue, we will see PvZ with Protoss having mapcontrol... THAT would be a good way to improve Protoss gameplay. But I guess some players would rather just have more options to sacrifice units on mineral lines, then to improve good concepts that are out there right now, but too wacky to be called stable.
Let's not pretend that mutas don't have combat value. Mutas aren't bad against stalkers (when factoring in the resource advantage Z gets due to his map control) and they're an essential component for defending marine-tank pushes.
Mutas, like banshees, are not strong for cost in combat, but they're a lot better than phoenixes. The oracle, as proposed, is way behind the phoenix.
That's not what I said. But the value mutas have in combat comes completly from them being fast air units. True that mutas are way better vs marines than phoenix and therefore it is just useless to compare Phoenix/zealot to muta/ling when fighting against tank/marine. But when I know that a push is coming, I'm not going to make more mutas. I'm morphing more banelings. I'm building more zerglings. Mutas main use lies in between combats. Phoenix in PvZ are really compareable to mutalisks to this (of course in lower numbers in earlier phases of the game): You do the initial harass, you force anti air, you slow him down, you prevent him from going out on the map. The difference now is, that no matter how many phoenixes you have, you can't kill spores, so there comes the point, when Zerg can just gather all hydralisks and attack and Protoss can't counterattack with his phoenix. Now imagine if the moment a zerg gathers his hydralisks, 1-2oracles fly into the mineral line, deactivate all spores and the phoenix kill all the drones and the queen. Then they fly home and help defending vs hydralisks. Armies get traded, but unlike in WOL, this isn't terrible for Protoss, because he is taking a third and zerg only has 2mining bases and even those get harrassed by entombs, which maybe don't pay for the oracle immidiatly, but they do good damage to a zerg that has no units (he just traded) and is redroning his base. Wouldn't that be a good use of Protoss air openings, unlike now where you see the push out, you have plenty of time to fly home with your phoenix, but you just do it right away, because there is no use in keeping them in his base anymore. Of course just flat out killing 20drones early with a ninja-reaper-with-splashdamage might set you up in the same situation, but how do you guarantee that it does kill only 20drones? And how do you argue, that it is a good unit that is playable through all game, if it's only viability should be to make Protoss come out on even economy with zerg/terran in the midgame...
No man. In ZvP Mutas can be a good combat unit since stalkers do so poorly against them. If you harass enough and slow down the protoss economy then you can keep making mutas to which Protoss doesn't really have a reliable answer to in the lategame if you were able to make a lot of mutalisks.
In ZvT Mutas are used to cut off reinforcements and also to help in the actual combat. While the marines run from the ling/baneling the mutas are getting potshots in and sniping tanks as the marines start to leave them behind.
In PvX theres no unit which can really force anti air since sure pheonixes can do damage but they have limited energy and are expensive. If I make 10 pheonixes I can kill lots of workers but this is to the detriment of my main army. I will have little AoE which toss really needs against Terran bioballs. Instead of AoE I'll have a zealot based army which is melee and much slower than zerglings and can be kited. So unlike lings which are fast and can get free hits in on the terran army most of the time, marine marauder will slow and kite zealots for most of the time the zealots try to engage.
Pheonixes can't effectively or reliably hold a push since its energy based and they can't reliably or effectively harass similarly due to energy requirements. Lifting workers can only go on for so long and once you run out of energy you can't use them to do much at all.
They do ok in PvZ because Zerg, without Mules feels the hit of each lost worker more in the long run and hydralisks which respond to pheonixes don't do as well against chargelots as marine marauder does. This is why we sometimes see 2 stargate pheonix play into chargelot with some archons in PvZ but never in PvT.
On November 02 2011 13:50 Vindicare605 wrote: Without getting in to why I like the Oracle. Can I ask you something?
Why is the Dark Templar not included in your list of Protoss Harassment options?
It should be. But it's pretty simple: DT's are good if your opponent isn't prepared. Otherwise, they're expensive archons. Either way, they're not consistent harass options because your opponent will certainly be prepared the second time.
So I get it right? You want a unit that pulls off harass successfully even if the opponent is prepared, that demands a response from the opponent that is out of the way of his usual combat tech and that is located conveniently in your tech path so you don't have to specifically invest in harassment? Oh.. and it should also have some utility in other roles...
On November 02 2011 14:19 Gobbles wrote: Why don't you wait until the units are released to complain. This is just a big theorycraft pile of garbage until then. 1 thread was enough, please at least try to contain your stupidity to the single thread so the rest of us can sift through less crap on TL.
User was warned for this post
We - the protoss players - already did that with the mothership and the colossus, and it was to late to complain, once the Game was out. Nothing could be done at that time, except subtle number changes. Thats why we are complaining early this time around, so Blizz has enough time to do something about dumb design.
I agree with the OP. What protoss need isnt another one dimensional, costly unit. What we need is a fast, disposable gateway unit. ~3 movement speed, less than 100 total hp, maybe 75/25 mins gas and bonus to light.
On November 02 2011 13:50 Vindicare605 wrote: Without getting in to why I like the Oracle. Can I ask you something?
Why is the Dark Templar not included in your list of Protoss Harassment options?
It should be. But it's pretty simple: DT's are good if your opponent isn't prepared. Otherwise, they're expensive archons. Either way, they're not consistent harass options because your opponent will certainly be prepared the second time.
So I get it right? You want a unit that pulls off harass successfully even if the opponent is prepared, that demands a response from the opponent that is out of the way of his usual combat tech and that is located conveniently in your tech path so you don't have to specifically invest in harassment? Oh.. and it should also have some utility in other roles...
Tell me one unit that fullfils those criteria...
Marines.
Marauders.
Roaches in Overlords.
Hydralisks in Overlords.
Anything Ranged that can be dropped and is generally used in the game anyway and has a decent DPS fulfills this role prior to late game.
On November 02 2011 13:50 Vindicare605 wrote: Without getting in to why I like the Oracle. Can I ask you something?
Why is the Dark Templar not included in your list of Protoss Harassment options?
It should be. But it's pretty simple: DT's are good if your opponent isn't prepared. Otherwise, they're expensive archons. Either way, they're not consistent harass options because your opponent will certainly be prepared the second time.
So I get it right? You want a unit that pulls off harass successfully even if the opponent is prepared, that demands a response from the opponent that is out of the way of his usual combat tech and that is located conveniently in your tech path so you don't have to specifically invest in harassment? Oh.. and it should also have some utility in other roles...
Tell me one unit that fullfils those criteria...
Marines.
Too bad that you can drop marines without medivac.
On November 02 2011 21:15 Toadvine wrote:In any case, if HotS is supposed to add units that shore up weaknesses of the races, then the Terran and Zerg units do make sense in this context. Terran units serve to make mech a viable playstyle in all matchups, for example by giving Hellions the option to act as proper meatshields for Tanks. Zerg units allow them to break entrenched positions more easily, and generally achieve pressure without sacrificing tons of units. In light of this, the new Protoss units are a total joke, they don't solve Protoss problems at all. Well, you can Replicate a Siege Tank and maybe defend 1/1/1, so that's nice I suppose. :/
HotS is not supposed to do anything but sell well for blizzard. If you argue that further, it means that it should be interesting to buy it, so the game should be fun to play and balanced on high level of play. What the game doesn't need, is 3races that all have no weaknesses and play similar.
Races in SC2 aren't supposed to have no weaknesses and play similar. But they also aren't supposed to be WoW classes that are only good at one thing, and have glaring holes in their arsenal. The weaknesses we do want are the ones that produce interesting gameplay. Zerg not being able to break a turtling Terran even when at a huge advantage was a bad weakness that led to stupid games. An entire Terran tech tree being unusuable in TvP was a bad weakness, so units were added to help that.
Protoss had no effective means to harass in the early to mid game, and were extremely reliant on expensive tech to keep them on par with core Zerg/Terran units. This is a bad weakness, because it produces boring gameplay, where the Protoss sits in his base with no map control and just defends and masses up. So, units were added to help this... oh wait.
Stargate openings vs Zerg? It's just that it seems like this techpath isn't viable further. That's why they try to make it more viable. Also: why should they give Protoss a pure early(gateway) harassment unit, that is a) hard to balance, due to warp gates b) overlapping with the dt in later stages of the game c) something terrans have; zergs partly have (zerglings harass, but they are not a unit purely designed to do so); so giving it to protoss would just mean that they "want each race to open with hellions vs zerg". It's a unique thing to have hellion openings as terran. Don't let them ruin the game with each race having the same basic strategy, just with different units. d) not necessary if they already make a spell like mass recall, which will basically make your whole army a big harrassment composition
On November 02 2011 22:38 Toadvine wrote:
On November 02 2011 21:54 Big J wrote: Zergs and Terrans also don't just get units that counteract weaknesses that are intended to be there. But Mech was intended to be playable in TvP, giving them battlehellions and warhounds might fix that. Mass Thor in ZvT wasn't intended to be playable, that's why the Thor has to go and make space for a unit that is worse vs roaches. And Zerg was intended to be one of the more aggressive races. In the alpha and beta days when people weren't that great at that game, the general opinion was that zerg was THE pressuring race, running all over the place and denying expos. Protoss was intended to work well on Stargate tech, that's why they are trying to fix that with oracles and tempests. Also, Protoss ground tech gets HUGE buffs through the mass recall. Like artosis said: In the current state of the game, he would ALWAYS build an extra Nexus just to have ONE mass recall, because then he could just be out on the map and harass the hell out of everything, for 400 extra minerals...
Recall is actually one great thing about HotS, and is way better than our new units combined. I'd trade all of them just to keep the current Recall in the game, which will no doubt get nerfed hard at some point in the beta.
However, the point about Stargate tech is retarded. The problem with Stargate was that the units weren't very good in direct army vs army engagements. So, this problem is solved by adding a unit that doesn't attack, and a unit that is only good vs mass air?
So in SC:BW Protoss players only went corsairs because they were so good vs hydralisks? No. Zerg players go for mass muta play vs terran because they are obviously soooo strong vs marines the main unit in standard biomech compositions? HELL NO! The problem isn't that Stargate tech is bad in combats. The problem is that Stargate tech and the complete airfleet that a Protoss invested into becomes useless in the midgame. (unlike corsairs in SC:BW) An Oracle would definatly help, because an oracle does never get useless, assuming that it doesn't die from 3spore shots. A Tempest is at least a try to give Protoss a flaggship that is playable. The carrier is not. So it has to go. The Tempest is at least a unit that will be fooled around with anew, before people decide if it is viable or not.
Sorry, but at this point, I'm pretty sure you don't understand what you're talking about at all. The exact problem with Stargate, in both PvT and PvZ, is that if it doesn't do enough damage, it is simply awful for its cost in a direct army vs army fight. Do you know what good Zergs do when they see a Stargate opening? They spore up, make tons of drones to saturate 3 bases, and then just make a shitload of roaches and lings to deny the Protoss third. Do you know what Terrans do? They expand, go up to 5-6 raxes, and then push with stim/combat shields done, and kill the Protoss natural.
The problem is very clearly that the units aren't good enough. And you even bring up Mutalisks, the perfect example of how this kind of unit can work well. Mutas have amazing combat utility compared to Phoenix/VRs. In fact, Zerg players often continue massing Mutas throughout the whole game, just because of how good they are as a core army unit.
Stargate openings being standard in BW is kind of a moot point, since SC2 Protoss is way different from BW Protoss (in fact, SC2 Terran is more similar to BW Protoss).
NO. Stargate units not being core combat units is not the problem. Making them core combat units COULD BE a solution. Making them able to harass an opponent, pin him in his base and delay pushes, a much more interesting one. I play zerg at masters league, and I can tell you that if you go Mutalisks as "core army unit", you are fucked. Play a game with zerg and engage a Marineball with mutalisks... Engage a blinkstalker ball with mutalisks. Engage mass thor with mutalisks. THOSE are combat units (and the blinkstalker is already a harass/combat hybrid). You won't beat them. And it's the same with stargate units. You don't ENGAGE even armies of marines or hydralisks with them. You try to do damage in his base and pin him there. The fact simply is, that it is easy to deny this kind of harass most of the time. If the Oracle can make the harass continue, we will see PvZ with Protoss having mapcontrol... THAT would be a good way to improve Protoss gameplay. But I guess some players would rather just have more options to sacrifice units on mineral lines, then to improve good concepts that are out there right now, but too wacky to be called stable.
Let's not pretend that mutas don't have combat value. Mutas aren't bad against stalkers (when factoring in the resource advantage Z gets due to his map control) and they're an essential component for defending marine-tank pushes.
Mutas, like banshees, are not strong for cost in combat, but they're a lot better than phoenixes. The oracle, as proposed, is way behind the phoenix.
That's not what I said. But the value mutas have in combat comes completly from them being fast air units. True that mutas are way better vs marines than phoenix and therefore it is just useless to compare Phoenix/zealot to muta/ling when fighting against tank/marine. But when I know that a push is coming, I'm not going to make more mutas. I'm morphing more banelings. I'm building more zerglings. Mutas main use lies in between combats. Phoenix in PvZ are really compareable to mutalisks to this (of course in lower numbers in earlier phases of the game): You do the initial harass, you force anti air, you slow him down, you prevent him from going out on the map. The difference now is, that no matter how many phoenixes you have, you can't kill spores, so there comes the point, when Zerg can just gather all hydralisks and attack and Protoss can't counterattack with his phoenix. Now imagine if the moment a zerg gathers his hydralisks, 1-2oracles fly into the mineral line, deactivate all spores and the phoenix kill all the drones and the queen. Then they fly home and help defending vs hydralisks. Armies get traded, but unlike in WOL, this isn't terrible for Protoss, because he is taking a third and zerg only has 2mining bases and even those get harrassed by entombs, which maybe don't pay for the oracle immidiatly, but they do good damage to a zerg that has no units (he just traded) and is redroning his base. Wouldn't that be a good use of Protoss air openings, unlike now where you see the push out, you have plenty of time to fly home with your phoenix, but you just do it right away, because there is no use in keeping them in his base anymore. Of course just flat out killing 20drones early with a ninja-reaper-with-splashdamage might set you up in the same situation, but how do you guarantee that it does kill only 20drones? And how do you argue, that it is a good unit that is playable through all game, if it's only viability should be to make Protoss come out on even economy with zerg/terran in the midgame...
No man. In ZvP Mutas can be a good combat unit since stalkers do so poorly against them. If you harass enough and slow down the protoss economy then you can keep making mutas to which Protoss doesn't really have a reliable answer to in the lategame if you were able to make a lot of mutalisks.
In ZvT Mutas are used to cut off reinforcements and also to help in the actual combat. While the marines run from the ling/baneling the mutas are getting potshots in and sniping tanks as the marines start to leave them behind.
In PvX theres no unit which can really force anti air since sure pheonixes can do damage but they have limited energy and are expensive. If I make 10 pheonixes I can kill lots of workers but this is to the detriment of my main army. I will have little AoE which toss really needs against Terran bioballs. Instead of AoE I'll have a zealot based army which is melee and much slower than zerglings and can be kited. So unlike lings which are fast and can get free hits in on the terran army most of the time, marine marauder will slow and kite zealots for most of the time the zealots try to engage.
Pheonixes can't effectively or reliably hold a push since its energy based and they can't reliably or effectively harass similarly due to energy requirements. Lifting workers can only go on for so long and once you run out of energy you can't use them to do much at all.
They do ok in PvZ because Zerg, without Mules feels the hit of each lost worker more in the long run and hydralisks which respond to pheonixes don't do as well against chargelots as marine marauder does. This is why we sometimes see 2 stargate pheonix play into chargelot with some archons in PvZ but never in PvT.
Mutas can fight Stalkerballs when one of those things happen: -) Zerg got really heavily ahead in the eco, so he has a mutalisk per stalker -) Zerg fights them with support (mainly zerglings, which are extreme hardcounters to stalkers, so smaller amounts like half the amount of mutas in zerglings are already BRUTAL)
And the stuff with the reinforcements etc: that's exactly what I meant. They get their strength from them being air. Phoenix could do that as well, the difference is that Protoss don't fight static armies ever. Terran goes bio and Zerg is a big swarm moving around all the time. You can't do this stuff zergs do with mutalisks against tank armies, simply because protoss opponents don't play such static armies.
The reason phoenix are reduntant in PvT combats is that Terran doesn't build the units they counter (hellions, tanks, banshees) anyways, or they are heavily protected by marines all the time (marauder, medivac, ghost? - never seen that).
On November 02 2011 13:50 Vindicare605 wrote: Without getting in to why I like the Oracle. Can I ask you something?
Why is the Dark Templar not included in your list of Protoss Harassment options?
It should be. But it's pretty simple: DT's are good if your opponent isn't prepared. Otherwise, they're expensive archons. Either way, they're not consistent harass options because your opponent will certainly be prepared the second time.
So I get it right? You want a unit that pulls off harass successfully even if the opponent is prepared, that demands a response from the opponent that is out of the way of his usual combat tech and that is located conveniently in your tech path so you don't have to specifically invest in harassment? Oh.. and it should also have some utility in other roles...
Tell me one unit that fullfils those criteria...
Marines.
Too bad that you can drop marines without medivac.
All Protoss "needs" is speed zealots back instead of stupid charge... having faster/more mobile units like from BW would fix so much shit imo. In other words, more than a .5 speed buff.
On November 03 2011 01:15 rpgalon wrote: a dedicated harras based on energy does not work, because of 2 things.
1- the oracle is a expensive harras based on energy, when it runs out of energy, it represent no treat to the enemy so, he can leave his base and kill you with a counter attack, your stargate+oracle is not going to help defend this... a harras unit that IS NOT based on energy, can always come back and so, they can pin the enemy in his base... the oracle can't do this, it is a 100% dedicated harras, that can not pin the oponent to his base and can not help you defend the counter attack.
2- you can always just ignore the oracle and go fucking kill your oponent, the harras potential of oracle is limited to it energy, so if you leave it in your base, it has a limited amount of damage it can do, while if you leave a MMM drop free in your base and go counter attack, the damage it can do is almost limitless...
PS: they can always make it OP, so it will work anyways...
1) yeah, like those burrowed infestors totally don't work, once they run out of energy. It's not like they can just pop out infested terrans in a minute again... Totally not.. 2) yeah, because investing into one oracle, leaves a Protoss completly without units. His Zealots will suddenly not attack anymore and his stalkers will try to chase butterflies around, rather than shoot at the uncooridinated "timing" you just invented, because you saw an oracle
PS: They can always make it so, that it is balanced. But I guess you're one of the kind: "marines are imba, because they are better than even (cost and supply) amounts of zerglings and zealots"
1- you are comparing a 100/150/2 caster unit, with a 150/200/4 100% harras that can't help your army in anything. the infestor is not a 100% harras unit, and no, once they run out of energy, they do nothing, and are just awaiting to be killed... seriously... what the hell are you trying to say?
2- stargate is a very expensive tech and the oracle is a very expensive unit... you don't need to attack, it is just the fact that you know you are safe for the next ~88s.
my point is that, a harras based on energy, has a very weak "stay on your base" force, and so it can't be a good 100% dedicated harras.
the oracle is a very predictable unit, the enemy knows exacly how many units they need to keep on the base, and where they need to keep then, to shut down the harras.
On November 03 2011 02:00 bovineblitz wrote: Okay then.
Banshees.
you have to invest 200/200 in cloak, otherwise stalkers shut it down very easily. observer + stalker are maybe a bit off if you want to get ht/blink/dt, but if you are agressive enough with your phoenix you can force a cloak near the terran base which also shuts down banshees see grubby vs happy on daybreak.
On November 03 2011 00:20 Big J wrote: ...and saying that a protoss reaper unit would surely have a big harass role while the terran reaper unit does not, is just whining about/glorifying things that we don't know how they will/would turn out.
Also note: its not just the "harrass" capability, thats mostly secondary to the early scouting information resulting from a quick harrass. The reason Reapers are "bad" for Terran is that Terran has tons of other, better options for both harrass and scouting. To take the two most obvious examples: Marine/Medivac drops are incredibly survivable (because of healing), can be added to your army later and can do a ton of damage. And scans are unblockable. Against those two the Reaper has no chance.
Protoss doesn't have anything that flexible that is available regardless of how they intend to play. If they want to Warp Prism harrass and get observers then the Protoss MUST go Robo. If blink is preferred then the Protoss MUST go Twlight Council, for DTs then the Dark Shrine needs adding to that. For Phoenixes then Stargate, which is a dead-end tech.
However if a Terran wants a Reaper for a quick bit of scouting and harrass they can get a tech lab on the barracks, get a reaper out then switch to marauders. Its far, far less commitment than anything Protoss can do. Things like DT harrass or even Warp Prism drops are in no way equivilant to Terran drops or Reaper harrass or Hellion harrass. Terran can easily go from Hellion harrass into MMM by simply flipping buildings around, which they will have because Terran production is effectively all one tech line, and adding on extras as needed. But a Protoss can't switch across from DT to the "normal" Colossus army composition used against Terran just like that; even going HT needs another building and an essential upgrade and you could be dead before that happens.
Thats why Protoss harrass HAS to do severe damage: to protect himself. Because if the harrass fails he's lost both a significant investment and he's going to take time to transition to a more stable army composition. The sole exception being Warp Prism harrass, which is generally incredibly inefficient due to the melee nature of Zealots. With the current options available to Protoss: sacrificing a harrass play for a bit of scouting information and a little bit of damage just isn't feasible. Because the harrass has to justify both the cost of the unit(s) itself/themselves (generally not cheap in any case), and the cost of the tech path chosen (250/350 150 seconds for Twilight + Dark Shrine, as an example) and the time it will take to build up another, more viable, tech path.
The reason Stargate play is becoming more popular PvZ is because a single Stargate, whilst not an insignificant investment, can be made up for by the damage done by a few Phoenixes and Void Rays, as well as forcing an unfavourable response from the Zerg player. Which combines to make it so that you can effectively justify the cost of the Stargate and the units and give yourself time to build up a new tech route (usually robo). This doesn't work for DTs because they're so much more expensive. So if you don't do a lot of damage with them you're left with a tech your opponent now knows about, that hasn't really done anything to help your situation, doesn't force as much of an unfavourable response (scans and overseers and observers aren't really a huge investment) and you've wasted a huge amount of time and resources on it. The risk/reward isn't favourable enough because if it fails it leaves you WAY behind with an unusable tech route to come back from. Its just way too hard to stabilise and it tends to be far more all-in than anything else. On the flip side if you lose a couple of reapers or a few hellions or even a banshee then by flipping around your addons you can change to whatever unit composition you want because you already have all the production building prerequisites. At most you'll need to build an extra tech building to get started.
On November 03 2011 02:00 bovineblitz wrote: Okay then.
Banshees.
you have to invest 200/200 in cloak, otherwise stalkers shut it down very easily. observer + stalker are maybe a bit off if you want to get ht/blink/dt, but if you are agressive enough with your phoenix you can force a cloak near the terran base which also shuts down banshees see grubby vs happy on daybreak.
Oh great, so if I have pro-level intuition I can rally my phoenix to where a banshee is moving across the map, that sounds like a perfectly reasonable solution, I'll figure out he's going banshee by scouting his ramp and make phoenixes and then have the sense to rally RIGHT TO the banshee.
Nevermind that even if he doesn't go cloak he can still pick off a couple probes, has a high DPS unit that works well with bio, forced crappy stalkers, forced detection, and can switch off the techlab to make 2x medivacs immediately.
On November 02 2011 15:56 Amui wrote: As a concept the oracle works, but in reality, especially as protoss, you can't waste gas to just deny a bit of mining against a good opponent. A marauder drop works because MMGV v P is a mineral reliant comp, you often see terrans get 2 orbitals running with 30+ scv's without getting a second gas. A zergling runby doesn't cost gas either, and ZvP is fairly gas dependant.
The oracle needs some way of helping protoss take a 3rd base, harass is nice, but if nothing comes of it, ultimately protoss is still behind because they've invested in dead end tech.
After killing 10 -15 workers with a banshee, the scariest time is the next 2-3 minutes, where the opponent has to decide whether he wants to all-in or not. After that time, you know you have a fairly decisive advantage provided you didn't cut workers, and you can throw down a 3rd fairly safely, because your opponent will have spent the time and money trying to recover economically while you try to get more ahead. The oracle as a harass unit neither allows you to secure a 3rd safely or deal enough economic damage to force an all-in. I might be wrong but losing half your workers to cloak banshee is worthy of an all-in, but losing half a base's income for the 15 seconds it takes to remove it isn't.
The oracle needs some defensive utility because without it, it's not a safe tech. No map control, no lasting economic damage. There's scouting, but unless stargate changes drastically, it's still very dead-end as far as mid-game transitions go.
You're making the assumption that a banshee harass will kill anywhere from 10-15 workers when 6 kills per banshee is considered to be cost effective, 10-15 is twice that. You're assuming that Banshee harassment is always that effective when in reality it isn't, even at the pro level pros will lose their banshees before hitting that 6 kill mark. You see it all the time in TvT.
Secondly, Protoss already have a gasless harassment option. Zealot/Prism drops cost ZERO gas. Even the Marine/Medivac Drop costs 100 gas per medivac, the Zealot/Prism drop only requires gas for the robotics facility and can be reinforced with stronger more expensive units if you catch your opponent dangerously out of position.
The Oracle is a compliment to other Protoss options. By itself it is still capable of shutting down mining and escaping. It moves as fast as a phoenix and can disable turrets on its way in or out. This means that as long as you keep the Oracle alive it can harass mineral lines all game for a single one time investment. On top of that its ability to shut down Turrets or Cannons makes it a great support unit to other harassment options like Zealot or DT drops/warps.
Honestly, I feel like people in this thread are looking at the Oracle in a vaccuum without even trying to consider how good it is when mixed with what Protoss already has. This is why the people that have used them in the HOTS mods are always impressed with how good they are. It's an underrated concept, I think it's worth giving a chance.
The Replicant on the other hand? Not so much.
Thats because protoss need a unit that can be used for harass without "mixing". We already have bunch of options, that work well together, the problem being, that you have to unlock the tech first. Which doesnt happen before late game. (DT + WP or WP + HT) At least not without taking huge risks.
Protoss need a mid game harassment unit, not late game. We already have late game options.
On November 02 2011 21:15 Toadvine wrote:In any case, if HotS is supposed to add units that shore up weaknesses of the races, then the Terran and Zerg units do make sense in this context. Terran units serve to make mech a viable playstyle in all matchups, for example by giving Hellions the option to act as proper meatshields for Tanks. Zerg units allow them to break entrenched positions more easily, and generally achieve pressure without sacrificing tons of units. In light of this, the new Protoss units are a total joke, they don't solve Protoss problems at all. Well, you can Replicate a Siege Tank and maybe defend 1/1/1, so that's nice I suppose. :/
HotS is not supposed to do anything but sell well for blizzard. If you argue that further, it means that it should be interesting to buy it, so the game should be fun to play and balanced on high level of play. What the game doesn't need, is 3races that all have no weaknesses and play similar.
Races in SC2 aren't supposed to have no weaknesses and play similar. But they also aren't supposed to be WoW classes that are only good at one thing, and have glaring holes in their arsenal. The weaknesses we do want are the ones that produce interesting gameplay. Zerg not being able to break a turtling Terran even when at a huge advantage was a bad weakness that led to stupid games. An entire Terran tech tree being unusuable in TvP was a bad weakness, so units were added to help that.
Protoss had no effective means to harass in the early to mid game, and were extremely reliant on expensive tech to keep them on par with core Zerg/Terran units. This is a bad weakness, because it produces boring gameplay, where the Protoss sits in his base with no map control and just defends and masses up. So, units were added to help this... oh wait.
Stargate openings vs Zerg? It's just that it seems like this techpath isn't viable further. That's why they try to make it more viable. Also: why should they give Protoss a pure early(gateway) harassment unit, that is a) hard to balance, due to warp gates b) overlapping with the dt in later stages of the game c) something terrans have; zergs partly have (zerglings harass, but they are not a unit purely designed to do so); so giving it to protoss would just mean that they "want each race to open with hellions vs zerg". It's a unique thing to have hellion openings as terran. Don't let them ruin the game with each race having the same basic strategy, just with different units. d) not necessary if they already make a spell like mass recall, which will basically make your whole army a big harrassment composition
On November 02 2011 22:38 Toadvine wrote:
On November 02 2011 21:54 Big J wrote: Zergs and Terrans also don't just get units that counteract weaknesses that are intended to be there. But Mech was intended to be playable in TvP, giving them battlehellions and warhounds might fix that. Mass Thor in ZvT wasn't intended to be playable, that's why the Thor has to go and make space for a unit that is worse vs roaches. And Zerg was intended to be one of the more aggressive races. In the alpha and beta days when people weren't that great at that game, the general opinion was that zerg was THE pressuring race, running all over the place and denying expos. Protoss was intended to work well on Stargate tech, that's why they are trying to fix that with oracles and tempests. Also, Protoss ground tech gets HUGE buffs through the mass recall. Like artosis said: In the current state of the game, he would ALWAYS build an extra Nexus just to have ONE mass recall, because then he could just be out on the map and harass the hell out of everything, for 400 extra minerals...
Recall is actually one great thing about HotS, and is way better than our new units combined. I'd trade all of them just to keep the current Recall in the game, which will no doubt get nerfed hard at some point in the beta.
However, the point about Stargate tech is retarded. The problem with Stargate was that the units weren't very good in direct army vs army engagements. So, this problem is solved by adding a unit that doesn't attack, and a unit that is only good vs mass air?
So in SC:BW Protoss players only went corsairs because they were so good vs hydralisks? No. Zerg players go for mass muta play vs terran because they are obviously soooo strong vs marines the main unit in standard biomech compositions? HELL NO! The problem isn't that Stargate tech is bad in combats. The problem is that Stargate tech and the complete airfleet that a Protoss invested into becomes useless in the midgame. (unlike corsairs in SC:BW) An Oracle would definatly help, because an oracle does never get useless, assuming that it doesn't die from 3spore shots. A Tempest is at least a try to give Protoss a flaggship that is playable. The carrier is not. So it has to go. The Tempest is at least a unit that will be fooled around with anew, before people decide if it is viable or not.
Sorry, but at this point, I'm pretty sure you don't understand what you're talking about at all. The exact problem with Stargate, in both PvT and PvZ, is that if it doesn't do enough damage, it is simply awful for its cost in a direct army vs army fight. Do you know what good Zergs do when they see a Stargate opening? They spore up, make tons of drones to saturate 3 bases, and then just make a shitload of roaches and lings to deny the Protoss third. Do you know what Terrans do? They expand, go up to 5-6 raxes, and then push with stim/combat shields done, and kill the Protoss natural.
The problem is very clearly that the units aren't good enough. And you even bring up Mutalisks, the perfect example of how this kind of unit can work well. Mutas have amazing combat utility compared to Phoenix/VRs. In fact, Zerg players often continue massing Mutas throughout the whole game, just because of how good they are as a core army unit.
Stargate openings being standard in BW is kind of a moot point, since SC2 Protoss is way different from BW Protoss (in fact, SC2 Terran is more similar to BW Protoss).
NO. Stargate units not being core combat units is not the problem. Making them core combat units COULD BE a solution. Making them able to harass an opponent, pin him in his base and delay pushes, a much more interesting one. I play zerg at masters league, and I can tell you that if you go Mutalisks as "core army unit", you are fucked. Play a game with zerg and engage a Marineball with mutalisks... Engage a blinkstalker ball with mutalisks. Engage mass thor with mutalisks. THOSE are combat units (and the blinkstalker is already a harass/combat hybrid). You won't beat them. And it's the same with stargate units. You don't ENGAGE even armies of marines or hydralisks with them. You try to do damage in his base and pin him there. The fact simply is, that it is easy to deny this kind of harass most of the time. If the Oracle can make the harass continue, we will see PvZ with Protoss having mapcontrol... THAT would be a good way to improve Protoss gameplay. But I guess some players would rather just have more options to sacrifice units on mineral lines, then to improve good concepts that are out there right now, but too wacky to be called stable.
Let's not pretend that mutas don't have combat value. Mutas aren't bad against stalkers (when factoring in the resource advantage Z gets due to his map control) and they're an essential component for defending marine-tank pushes.
Mutas, like banshees, are not strong for cost in combat, but they're a lot better than phoenixes. The oracle, as proposed, is way behind the phoenix.
Now imagine if the moment a zerg gathers his hydralisks, 1-2oracles fly into the mineral line, deactivate all spores and the phoenix kill all the drones and the queen. Then they fly home and help defending vs hydralisks. Armies get traded, but unlike in WOL, this isn't terrible for Protoss, because he is taking a third and zerg only has 2mining bases and even those get harrassed by entombs, which maybe don't pay for the oracle immidiatly, but they do good damage to a zerg that has no units (he just traded) and is redroning his base.
The point we are constantly trying to make, and that you keep ignoring, is that if you make oracles in addition to the phoenix, you have even less of a chance of holding the attack. You could maybe do something like that on a map with a natural ramp, like Shakuras. But on a map where you actually need to engage the attacking army, you'll get stomped if you keep making Stargate units.
Again, the Oracle might make the harassment more powerful, but it doesn't address the primary weakness of Stargate at all.
I like that Blizzard has tried something different.
I have concerns that the Oracle will not be able to fulfill its stated mission role (harrassment).
To me successful harassment is when the enemy's economy has been damaged in a long term manner (ie probe destruction). With the other races (Zerg/Terran) the mining rate slowly creeps back up to full over several minutes and in player has to pay to replace the probes as well. So he is hit with a double whammy, reduced mining and having to pay to rebuild the mining capacity at the same time
The Oracle delays mineral gathering without the target having to pay to replace the probes as well. When the harrasment ends then the mining rate of the enemy resumes at full. I don't know if Blizzard has estimated the total economic losses based on the losing X number of probes in a harassment mission.
I can see the "phase out" power being useful, both from an economic point of view and bolstering an attack/defense: Economic: Phase out gas mines and tech structures. Both can be annoying to the other player.
Tactical/Micro: Shut down defensive structures (towers, bunkers, spines, etc). Works wonders as a siege breaker. Shut down tech structures completely. I can see this being very nasty against zerg and protoss.As with any other timing window you will have to take advantage of it the first time because you probably won't get a second (ie multiple tech structures). You have to be more selective against Terran because of the distributed nature of Terran tech: ghost academies, attached tech structures, fusion cores.
Shut down the forward pylon of a warp-in push. Instead of being able to reinforce up close the attacker has to walk across the board. This may make some sort of stargate opening viable in PvP. Timings TBD.
The "Preordain" power? Undecided- Maybe keeping an eye on Terran starports would be useful - then I can see if he is making Vikings or Medvacs so I can try to adjust my play from there.
In my opinion: The oracle augments a death ball by reducing enemy DPS (instead of increasing the protoss ball), either through reduced mining or reduced tech/production/gas harvesting options.
In my second opinion: The oracle is useful if it throws off the enemy's game - If the other player is planning on spitting out some unit and suddenly they are not available, he has to stop and think about what to do and his groove is thrown off. Half of harassment isn't the monetary issue: it is getting the enemy out of their comfort zone and having to play the game you want them to play instead of playing the game they want to play.
On November 02 2011 21:15 Toadvine wrote:In any case, if HotS is supposed to add units that shore up weaknesses of the races, then the Terran and Zerg units do make sense in this context. Terran units serve to make mech a viable playstyle in all matchups, for example by giving Hellions the option to act as proper meatshields for Tanks. Zerg units allow them to break entrenched positions more easily, and generally achieve pressure without sacrificing tons of units. In light of this, the new Protoss units are a total joke, they don't solve Protoss problems at all. Well, you can Replicate a Siege Tank and maybe defend 1/1/1, so that's nice I suppose. :/
HotS is not supposed to do anything but sell well for blizzard. If you argue that further, it means that it should be interesting to buy it, so the game should be fun to play and balanced on high level of play. What the game doesn't need, is 3races that all have no weaknesses and play similar.
Races in SC2 aren't supposed to have no weaknesses and play similar. But they also aren't supposed to be WoW classes that are only good at one thing, and have glaring holes in their arsenal. The weaknesses we do want are the ones that produce interesting gameplay. Zerg not being able to break a turtling Terran even when at a huge advantage was a bad weakness that led to stupid games. An entire Terran tech tree being unusuable in TvP was a bad weakness, so units were added to help that.
Protoss had no effective means to harass in the early to mid game, and were extremely reliant on expensive tech to keep them on par with core Zerg/Terran units. This is a bad weakness, because it produces boring gameplay, where the Protoss sits in his base with no map control and just defends and masses up. So, units were added to help this... oh wait.
Stargate openings vs Zerg? It's just that it seems like this techpath isn't viable further. That's why they try to make it more viable. Also: why should they give Protoss a pure early(gateway) harassment unit, that is a) hard to balance, due to warp gates b) overlapping with the dt in later stages of the game c) something terrans have; zergs partly have (zerglings harass, but they are not a unit purely designed to do so); so giving it to protoss would just mean that they "want each race to open with hellions vs zerg". It's a unique thing to have hellion openings as terran. Don't let them ruin the game with each race having the same basic strategy, just with different units. d) not necessary if they already make a spell like mass recall, which will basically make your whole army a big harrassment composition
On November 02 2011 22:38 Toadvine wrote:
On November 02 2011 21:54 Big J wrote: Zergs and Terrans also don't just get units that counteract weaknesses that are intended to be there. But Mech was intended to be playable in TvP, giving them battlehellions and warhounds might fix that. Mass Thor in ZvT wasn't intended to be playable, that's why the Thor has to go and make space for a unit that is worse vs roaches. And Zerg was intended to be one of the more aggressive races. In the alpha and beta days when people weren't that great at that game, the general opinion was that zerg was THE pressuring race, running all over the place and denying expos. Protoss was intended to work well on Stargate tech, that's why they are trying to fix that with oracles and tempests. Also, Protoss ground tech gets HUGE buffs through the mass recall. Like artosis said: In the current state of the game, he would ALWAYS build an extra Nexus just to have ONE mass recall, because then he could just be out on the map and harass the hell out of everything, for 400 extra minerals...
Recall is actually one great thing about HotS, and is way better than our new units combined. I'd trade all of them just to keep the current Recall in the game, which will no doubt get nerfed hard at some point in the beta.
However, the point about Stargate tech is retarded. The problem with Stargate was that the units weren't very good in direct army vs army engagements. So, this problem is solved by adding a unit that doesn't attack, and a unit that is only good vs mass air?
So in SC:BW Protoss players only went corsairs because they were so good vs hydralisks? No. Zerg players go for mass muta play vs terran because they are obviously soooo strong vs marines the main unit in standard biomech compositions? HELL NO! The problem isn't that Stargate tech is bad in combats. The problem is that Stargate tech and the complete airfleet that a Protoss invested into becomes useless in the midgame. (unlike corsairs in SC:BW) An Oracle would definatly help, because an oracle does never get useless, assuming that it doesn't die from 3spore shots. A Tempest is at least a try to give Protoss a flaggship that is playable. The carrier is not. So it has to go. The Tempest is at least a unit that will be fooled around with anew, before people decide if it is viable or not.
Sorry, but at this point, I'm pretty sure you don't understand what you're talking about at all. The exact problem with Stargate, in both PvT and PvZ, is that if it doesn't do enough damage, it is simply awful for its cost in a direct army vs army fight. Do you know what good Zergs do when they see a Stargate opening? They spore up, make tons of drones to saturate 3 bases, and then just make a shitload of roaches and lings to deny the Protoss third. Do you know what Terrans do? They expand, go up to 5-6 raxes, and then push with stim/combat shields done, and kill the Protoss natural.
The problem is very clearly that the units aren't good enough. And you even bring up Mutalisks, the perfect example of how this kind of unit can work well. Mutas have amazing combat utility compared to Phoenix/VRs. In fact, Zerg players often continue massing Mutas throughout the whole game, just because of how good they are as a core army unit.
Stargate openings being standard in BW is kind of a moot point, since SC2 Protoss is way different from BW Protoss (in fact, SC2 Terran is more similar to BW Protoss).
NO. Stargate units not being core combat units is not the problem. Making them core combat units COULD BE a solution. Making them able to harass an opponent, pin him in his base and delay pushes, a much more interesting one. I play zerg at masters league, and I can tell you that if you go Mutalisks as "core army unit", you are fucked. Play a game with zerg and engage a Marineball with mutalisks... Engage a blinkstalker ball with mutalisks. Engage mass thor with mutalisks. THOSE are combat units (and the blinkstalker is already a harass/combat hybrid). You won't beat them. And it's the same with stargate units. You don't ENGAGE even armies of marines or hydralisks with them. You try to do damage in his base and pin him there. The fact simply is, that it is easy to deny this kind of harass most of the time. If the Oracle can make the harass continue, we will see PvZ with Protoss having mapcontrol... THAT would be a good way to improve Protoss gameplay. But I guess some players would rather just have more options to sacrifice units on mineral lines, then to improve good concepts that are out there right now, but too wacky to be called stable.
Let's not pretend that mutas don't have combat value. Mutas aren't bad against stalkers (when factoring in the resource advantage Z gets due to his map control) and they're an essential component for defending marine-tank pushes.
Mutas, like banshees, are not strong for cost in combat, but they're a lot better than phoenixes. The oracle, as proposed, is way behind the phoenix.
Now imagine if the moment a zerg gathers his hydralisks, 1-2oracles fly into the mineral line, deactivate all spores and the phoenix kill all the drones and the queen. Then they fly home and help defending vs hydralisks. Armies get traded, but unlike in WOL, this isn't terrible for Protoss, because he is taking a third and zerg only has 2mining bases and even those get harrassed by entombs, which maybe don't pay for the oracle immidiatly, but they do good damage to a zerg that has no units (he just traded) and is redroning his base.
The point we are constantly trying to make, and that you keep ignoring, is that if you make oracles in addition to the phoenix, you have even less of a chance of holding the attack. You could maybe do something like that on a map with a natural ramp, like Shakuras. But on a map where you actually need to engage the attacking army, you'll get stomped if you keep making Stargate units.
Again, the Oracle might make the harassment more powerful, but it doesn't address the primary weakness of Stargate at all.
This. If I want to invest in dedicated harass, I already have stargate tech and phoenix/void available. I don't need a way to help me kill more drones with phoenix/void. What I need is either (1) a better way to defend and transition from phoenix/void, or (2) a better way to harass with gateway or robo openings. The oracle solves a problem that Protoss doesn't have.
I don't think any discussion on possible builds, abilities or viability will lead to anything useful at this point. The ability of the Oracle to harras and fit into a build will depend on a number of things that we cannot predict without having the unit in hand. We do not know the amount of effort it takes to deal with the unit.
Also, there is a HUGE amount of false information about all of the HotS units on TL, to the point were I am taking not counting on anything until the beta. The amount of effort required to deal with this unit, free the minerals and how it is done has not be addressed at all and won't be until beta. Can you A-move your units into the mineral-shields, or do you need to attack each one? What is the range of the "lock down" ability for structures? How quickly does the unit build? These are all questions I want answered. And when I say answered, I mean by clicking on the unit and moving it around.
And for players who say that the unit will not fit into a standard robo build, well that is the name of the game. Finding a solid build where you can get a unit out at a good timing and still have a solid chance of defending is SC 2 in a nut shell.
I'm actually a bit concerned with the Oracle being too good because it takes virtually no TIME for the oracle to inflict its harassment. Imagine if you had to stop a single muta from attacking a mineral line a single time. It'd be almost impossible without a mistake on the zerg's behalf. The Oracle flies in at some relatively respectable speed, hits the mineral line with one spell, and moseys away. It looks to be relatively fast, and that ability is pretty powerful, but either the unit is too good at hitting and escaping or its easily run down by an air unit. Due to the massive blank air space behind basically every main base, theres plenty of space for an oracle to hide behind, and a ground force has NO chance of killing it unless it deliberately runs into marines. With no need to spend TIME in the mineral line, it'll be incredibly hard to kill unless theres an air unit that can actually run it down to death, in which case its worthless. Now this could be better balanced if the Oracle did anything but entomb minerals, but it has no other (meaningful) active abilities.
On November 02 2011 14:03 Tektos wrote: Dark Templars hinder the enemy expanding unless they invest in mobile detection.
How is that not economy harass?
And we already have threads on the Oracle.
I don't think: "nobody read my opinion (which I think is more valuable than everyone else's) so I'll make it a thread of it's own instead of replying to the existing threads" is a legitimate reason to make this a thread.
A thousand times this, I wonder how many 'X HOTS UNIT is awful, here's seven paragraphs of why' threads exist now.
On November 03 2011 02:00 bovineblitz wrote: Okay then.
Banshees.
you have to invest 200/200 in cloak, otherwise stalkers shut it down very easily. observer + stalker are maybe a bit off if you want to get ht/blink/dt, but if you are agressive enough with your phoenix you can force a cloak near the terran base which also shuts down banshees see grubby vs happy on daybreak.
Oh great, so if I have pro-level intuition I can rally my phoenix to where a banshee is moving across the map, that sounds like a perfectly reasonable solution, I'll figure out he's going banshee by scouting his ramp and make phoenixes and then have the sense to rally RIGHT TO the banshee.
Nevermind that even if he doesn't go cloak he can still pick off a couple probes, has a high DPS unit that works well with bio, forced crappy stalkers, forced detection, and can switch off the techlab to make 2x medivacs immediately.
Banshee fits all the criteria.
I'm just ignoring the rant on phoenixes. I just said it is possible, not that you could easily do that. But i thought the idea behind the phoenix is to harass and scout his base. So you have actual time to prepare for them. together with the possibility to cut off the direct path, you have even more time to react.
A banshee is 100/150. which would, in a naive way, be like 5 probes. if he can kill you 5 probes without you being able to react to that you have other problems than banshees. But I'm sorry you have to react to banshees by building stalkers. Seems like any T and esp. Z player can just ignore the oracle. not.
I also can't see how it works "well" with bio. It isn't bad to have them, but they don't add the utility of, say a medivac which heals your bioball and gives highground vision. It also forced detection but once you hold off the harass you can further use the obs to scout the terran base. it's not like the oh so liked turret at the terran expansion which is just there. maybe to hold off dts or observers but doesn't do anything beside that.
EDIT:
On November 03 2011 02:28 kcdc wrote: This. If I want to invest in dedicated harass, I already have stargate tech and phoenix/void available. I don't need a way to help me kill more drones with phoenix/void. What I need is either (1) a better way to defend and transition from phoenix/void, or (2) a better way to harass with gateway or robo openings. The oracle solves a problem that Protoss doesn't have.
On November 03 2011 02:36 Rivkeh wrote: I'm actually a bit concerned with the Oracle being too good because it takes virtually no TIME for the oracle to inflict its harassment. Imagine if you had to stop a single muta from attacking a mineral line a single time. It'd be almost impossible without a mistake on the zerg's behalf. The Oracle flies in at some relatively respectable speed, hits the mineral line with one spell, and moseys away. It looks to be relatively fast, and that ability is pretty powerful, but either the unit is too good at hitting and escaping or its easily run down by an air unit. Due to the massive blank air space behind basically every main base, theres plenty of space for an oracle to hide behind, and a ground force has NO chance of killing it unless it deliberately runs into marines. With no need to spend TIME in the mineral line, it'll be incredibly hard to kill unless theres an air unit that can actually run it down to death, in which case its worthless. Now this could be better balanced if the Oracle did anything but entomb minerals, but it has no other (meaningful) active abilities.
I retract my previous statement about testing the unit before passing judgment. Any unit that can mosey is broken. Not only does it deny mining, but it taunts and trolls you opponent by moving. No unit should be that frustrating to deal with. It is clearly inbalanced and needs to be removed.
On November 03 2011 02:36 Rivkeh wrote: I'm actually a bit concerned with the Oracle being too good because it takes virtually no TIME for the oracle to inflict its harassment. Imagine if you had to stop a single muta from attacking a mineral line a single time. It'd be almost impossible without a mistake on the zerg's behalf. The Oracle flies in at some relatively respectable speed, hits the mineral line with one spell, and moseys away. It looks to be relatively fast, and that ability is pretty powerful, but either the unit is too good at hitting and escaping or its easily run down by an air unit. Due to the massive blank air space behind basically every main base, theres plenty of space for an oracle to hide behind, and a ground force has NO chance of killing it unless it deliberately runs into marines. With no need to spend TIME in the mineral line, it'll be incredibly hard to kill unless theres an air unit that can actually run it down to death, in which case its worthless. Now this could be better balanced if the Oracle did anything but entomb minerals, but it has no other (meaningful) active abilities.
Agreed because this takes maybe 4 apm. I think when people actually begin to use this thing we'll realize it's actually extremely powerful. Take into consideration that most Protoss play is based around certain timing attacks. As zerg i need to have a flood of income at that time to continue to defend. If the harass goes down right before the attack, my ability to defend is severely hampered. Also, zerg play is based around droning like hell and coming out with tech or units just in time. If you phase out any of my lair tech upgrades in advance of an attack timing, my whole build is cut to shreds.
It is a big investment of a unit, but i think we will be saying it's well worth it down the line.
On November 03 2011 02:00 bovineblitz wrote: Okay then.
Banshees.
you have to invest 200/200 in cloak, otherwise stalkers shut it down very easily. observer + stalker are maybe a bit off if you want to get ht/blink/dt, but if you are agressive enough with your phoenix you can force a cloak near the terran base which also shuts down banshees see grubby vs happy on daybreak.
Oh great, so if I have pro-level intuition I can rally my phoenix to where a banshee is moving across the map, that sounds like a perfectly reasonable solution, I'll figure out he's going banshee by scouting his ramp and make phoenixes and then have the sense to rally RIGHT TO the banshee.
Nevermind that even if he doesn't go cloak he can still pick off a couple probes, has a high DPS unit that works well with bio, forced crappy stalkers, forced detection, and can switch off the techlab to make 2x medivacs immediately.
Banshee fits all the criteria.
I'm just ignoring the rant on phoenixes. I just said it is possible, not that you could easily do that. But i thought the idea behind the phoenix is to harass and scout his base. So you have actual time to prepare for them. together with the possibility to cut off the direct path, you have even more time to react.
A banshee is 100/150. which would, in a naive way, be like 5 probes. if he can kill you 5 probes without you being able to react to that you have other problems than banshees. But I'm sorry you have to react to banshees by building stalkers. Seems like any T and esp. Z player can just ignore the oracle. not.
I also can't see how it works "well" with bio. It isn't bad to have them, but they don't add the utility of, say a medivac which heals your bioball and gives highground vision. It also forced detection but once you hold off the harass you can further use the obs to scout the terran base. it's not like the oh so liked turret at the terran expansion which is just there. maybe to hold off dts or observers but doesn't do anything beside that.
Building stalkers is suboptimal. T and Z will theoretically be able to counter the oracle with any unit. A small force of marines will scare the oracle and kill the mineral shields quickly enough that it won't even be an issue. A queen and a few lings will do the same. None of that is suboptimal except perhaps you have to keep a couple units near your mineral line. Overmaking stalkers vs terran is certainly suboptimal, once marauders, and god forbid, stim, are out, they plain suck.
I don't really get how you don't see that a banshee works well with bio. You can just throw it into a group and it does 19.2dps. The utility is the dps. It integrates well with armies because it does massive damage and can't get hit by zealots. You typically only make two or so and barely go out of your tech path so it's not like you've wasted much time and resources even if you do no economic damage with the banshee.
And really, you're comparing making a cheap turret at a dt timing vs being forced to go 225/175 robo/obs for a banshee timing? Plus even if you don't make the turret, you can still survive via scan vs DTs. If toss doesn't get the obs, the game is over.
On November 03 2011 02:36 Rivkeh wrote: I'm actually a bit concerned with the Oracle being too good because it takes virtually no TIME for the oracle to inflict its harassment. Imagine if you had to stop a single muta from attacking a mineral line a single time. It'd be almost impossible without a mistake on the zerg's behalf. The Oracle flies in at some relatively respectable speed, hits the mineral line with one spell, and moseys away. It looks to be relatively fast, and that ability is pretty powerful, but either the unit is too good at hitting and escaping or its easily run down by an air unit. Due to the massive blank air space behind basically every main base, theres plenty of space for an oracle to hide behind, and a ground force has NO chance of killing it unless it deliberately runs into marines. With no need to spend TIME in the mineral line, it'll be incredibly hard to kill unless theres an air unit that can actually run it down to death, in which case its worthless. Now this could be better balanced if the Oracle did anything but entomb minerals, but it has no other (meaningful) active abilities.
This is sort of what I was talking about with my concerns about how 1-dimensional the oracle is right now. If it's going to be expensive, on stargate tech, and have no direct combat value, then it needs to have extremely strong harassment value (or it won't be used). But if the harassment is strong enough to offset its drawbacks, then it will run the risk of being overpowered in many situations (e.g. if Protoss gets far enough ahead to afford oracles, then they can't lose). This is the tightrope Blizzard has chosen to walk with the oracle.
On November 03 2011 02:36 Rivkeh wrote: I'm actually a bit concerned with the Oracle being too good because it takes virtually no TIME for the oracle to inflict its harassment. Imagine if you had to stop a single muta from attacking a mineral line a single time. It'd be almost impossible without a mistake on the zerg's behalf. The Oracle flies in at some relatively respectable speed, hits the mineral line with one spell, and moseys away. It looks to be relatively fast, and that ability is pretty powerful, but either the unit is too good at hitting and escaping or its easily run down by an air unit. Due to the massive blank air space behind basically every main base, theres plenty of space for an oracle to hide behind, and a ground force has NO chance of killing it unless it deliberately runs into marines. With no need to spend TIME in the mineral line, it'll be incredibly hard to kill unless theres an air unit that can actually run it down to death, in which case its worthless. Now this could be better balanced if the Oracle did anything but entomb minerals, but it has no other (meaningful) active abilities.
Agreed because this takes maybe 4 apm. I think when people actually begin to use this thing we'll realize it's actually extremely powerful. Take into consideration that most Protoss play is based around certain timing attacks. As zerg i need to have a flood of income at that time to continue to defend. If the harass goes down right before the attack, my ability to defend is severely hampered. Also, zerg play is based around droning like hell and coming out with tech or units just in time. If you phase out any of my lair tech upgrades in advance of an attack timing, my whole build is cut to shreds.
It is a big investment of a unit, but i think we will be saying it's well worth it down the line.
That's another reason I don't like the unit. Protoss kept getting nerfed because timing attacks were too good. Now this unit will make timing attacks (for example, stargate into 6gate all in) vs zerg even better? How is that going to balance out... what else will they have to nerf to make up for it?
I just really dislike the idea, I don't see how it will be good for the game.
My complaint with the oracle is that the only way I can think to use it effectively is to stall production in the late game after the death-balls have collided. By using it in the mid-game the enemy can gain map control, as they will gave a larger army (assuming both players have been playing equally well) at about the same supply, thereby freeing them to simply expand when they see the oracle. Plus, as the OP said, the defense against phoenix harass is the same defense against the oracle. I'm sure you can combine it with other air units to shut down air defense or with warp prisms to allow for easier drops, but over all the unit seems too gimmicky to see wide-spread use. With that said it should be fun to mess with in team games!
On November 03 2011 02:42 Hryul wrote: A banshee is 100/150. which would, in a naive way, be like 5 probes. if he can kill you 5 probes without you being able to react to that you have other problems than banshees. But I'm sorry you have to react to banshees by building stalkers.
A banshee's cost is equal to a medivac + 50 gas, so for the banshee to pay for itself, it needs to kill enough probes to make up for the 50 gas + the drop in combat value from a medivac to a banshee. I'd say that in most situations where you already have a couple medivacs, a banshee is almost as good as a medivac in combat, so the banshee needs to kill maybe 2 or 3 probes to pay for itself. I don't remember the last time I saw a pro game where a banshee failed to kill at least 2 probes.
Really well thought out post that brought up some excellent points..When you compare the oracle to the Terran and Zerg harass units it is not the same at all..they would be better off giving it some sort of ability that could reduce units movement speed to almost none and it could be used on mining workers for the same effect as well as in battle. Targetting the minerals will cause minimal damage especially since the force fields can be destroyed. If you invest in this unit it's going to seriously weaken your army, and against Terran it is hardly viable because of the cost effectiveness of marines vs air and the fact that this forces you to go stargate tech.
The harass unit should come from the robo and atleast have some utility in a battle situation.. or atleast be able to do some dmg even if it is minimal ( similar to the sentry ). I haven't actually looked into it but the cost of the unit just to delay mining time..you're going to have to be consistently using this unit to make it cost effective and once the Z or T sees it they will set up static defense and/or get mutas or vikings and kill your defenseless oracle(s)
The unit has to be completely reworked in my opinion, and hopefully intelligent/analytical posts like yours about the unit don't get lumped in with all the ''LOL ORACLE SO OP'' or ''LOL DAVID KIM IS A DUMB AND FUCKED OVER PROTOSS'' posts and thinks of something else.
Even after fooling around with the oracle on the HotS custom map, I find it to be a stupid unit.
1. Anyone with half a brain can shut down the no-attack, low hp, flying unit. Queens, lol. Marines, lol. Basic shit. 2. One entomb isn't really that good... No srsly, it kinda sucks, just quickly a-move all your drones/scvs and its like 200 minerals AT MOST not mined, while the toss had to spend 300 gas... 3. The other spells are stupid. The building thing is w/e on this unit since you need to spend all energy on entomb or the research viewer. The research viewer is nice and all, but how often are you willing to spend 300 gas to see what one building is making?
FRANKLY the Shredder seems like a more Protossian unit than a Terran unit. With any luck they will move that kind of unit to protoss, and give them some serious harassment options. Don't know if you have seen this unit in action, but its totally broken in its current state.
the only problem I have with the Oracle from a design-standpoint is, that it will be quite different to balance the Oracle across the different MU's. Just because of the different way that the buildings work for Zerg and Terran. For Zerg, if you remove a building from the game for this duration, it totally shuts down ALL the Unit-production and often even tech-routes, which just works totally different for Terran. Compare for example phasing out a Pool from an early 2-base Zerg: It will not only shut down ANY further tech and building, but also deny queens, Spines and Zerglings. If you do the same to a Terran on the same stage of the game you'll most likely shut down a Barracks, while the Terran will most likely have another Barracks, therefore not shutting down any tech-options and only production from one building.
This is just very prodblematic and the only thing that could mitigate this Problem is Zerg being able and IMHO basically forced to, extensively hide their buildings, but thats basically only an option at T2. I really cannot think of a way to balance phasing out so it is equally strong in every MU other than simply make the spell work differently on Zerg-buildings, like just lasting much shorter. If they change the spell though in any other way than the duration, like make it work somewhat like the overseers spell, it would totally loose it's diverse strategic potential which is so appealing to me right now.
On November 03 2011 02:28 kcdc wrote: This. If I want to invest in dedicated harass, I already have stargate tech and phoenix/void available. I don't need a way to help me kill more drones with phoenix/void. What I need is either (1) a better way to defend and transition from phoenix/void, or (2) a better way to harass with gateway or robo openings. The oracle solves a problem that Protoss doesn't have.
No it's just something you want.
"Well, that's just your opinion!" - the ultimate argument, from the ultimate debate bonjwa.
Seriously though, either explain why he's wrong, or which Protoss problem Blizzard wants to address with the Oracle, or something. Or don't post at all, that's fine too.
"On November 03 2011 02:28 kcdc wrote: This. If I want to invest in dedicated harass, I already have stargate tech and phoenix/void available. I don't need a way to help me kill more drones with phoenix/void. What I need is either (1) a better way to defend and transition from phoenix/void, or (2) a better way to harass with gateway or robo openings. The oracle solves a problem that Protoss doesn't have."
The idea of a better way to transition out of Phoenix/Void is interesting. I think with a little redesign the Oracle could DEFINITELY do this.
If they don't want it to kill units, maybe give it some massssive snare that Protoss can use to slow down ling counters, or even trap them inside cannon range.
Or - allow it to completely cancel a researching upgrade. Fly in, BAM no more stim for you. But it could only be used on one building. So each oracle would be able to lockdown a single building. But no other oracle for the rest of the game could lockdown that building. So if the defender kills off the oracle that canceled his stim to start with, then no other oracle can mess with that tech lab for the rest of the game. A new one could hit his ebay and not die, but only get into the base once without dying, canceling +1 once, but then leaving the building safe for the rest of the game. Would encourage 'protoss-y' play by having to focus on keeping units alive and out of harm's reach.
Another idea I had was to actually allow the Oracle to siphon minerals like they are thinking about doing with the corrupter. If Entomb actually siphoned minerals for the protoss, or worked on geysers, it would be worthwhile I think.
I'm no expert but I think most everyone is missing the point. The Oracle is "worker friendly" meaning the other player will never even noticed they've been harassed if done properly, or at least until they notice that they have no income. Since the unit is so damn fast it can get in, entomb the minerals, and get back out and a player might not even notice the little blip on the mini-map. Plus from what I saw from videos the entomb spell even has a pretty long range too 6-7 perhaps.
The oracle can even be used pretty effectively in late game too. I would imagine that if the Oracle can shut down static defenses it removes their detection ability as well. Which allows for some amazing combinations with DTs. Entomb can force all the workers to one or two patches which allows for one WP with one HT two devastate the entire line with one storm and possible have another ready for the reinforcements.
Also one the big clash comes and players have to rebuild just send the an Oracle or two over and completely shut down a Terran's or Protoss's production, or the Zergs tech so they can't recharge with the units they want. It allows you to get a much larger army than your opponent for that second engagement.
I don't know though I'm not a pro, nor do I play enough to consider myself an expert. But those are just some strategies I see that I don't think anyone has mentioned / ignored. It certainly seems like it will make for an effective unit.
On November 02 2011 21:15 Toadvine wrote:In any case, if HotS is supposed to add units that shore up weaknesses of the races, then the Terran and Zerg units do make sense in this context. Terran units serve to make mech a viable playstyle in all matchups, for example by giving Hellions the option to act as proper meatshields for Tanks. Zerg units allow them to break entrenched positions more easily, and generally achieve pressure without sacrificing tons of units. In light of this, the new Protoss units are a total joke, they don't solve Protoss problems at all. Well, you can Replicate a Siege Tank and maybe defend 1/1/1, so that's nice I suppose. :/
HotS is not supposed to do anything but sell well for blizzard. If you argue that further, it means that it should be interesting to buy it, so the game should be fun to play and balanced on high level of play. What the game doesn't need, is 3races that all have no weaknesses and play similar.
Races in SC2 aren't supposed to have no weaknesses and play similar. But they also aren't supposed to be WoW classes that are only good at one thing, and have glaring holes in their arsenal. The weaknesses we do want are the ones that produce interesting gameplay. Zerg not being able to break a turtling Terran even when at a huge advantage was a bad weakness that led to stupid games. An entire Terran tech tree being unusuable in TvP was a bad weakness, so units were added to help that.
Protoss had no effective means to harass in the early to mid game, and were extremely reliant on expensive tech to keep them on par with core Zerg/Terran units. This is a bad weakness, because it produces boring gameplay, where the Protoss sits in his base with no map control and just defends and masses up. So, units were added to help this... oh wait.
Stargate openings vs Zerg? It's just that it seems like this techpath isn't viable further. That's why they try to make it more viable. Also: why should they give Protoss a pure early(gateway) harassment unit, that is a) hard to balance, due to warp gates b) overlapping with the dt in later stages of the game c) something terrans have; zergs partly have (zerglings harass, but they are not a unit purely designed to do so); so giving it to protoss would just mean that they "want each race to open with hellions vs zerg". It's a unique thing to have hellion openings as terran. Don't let them ruin the game with each race having the same basic strategy, just with different units. d) not necessary if they already make a spell like mass recall, which will basically make your whole army a big harrassment composition
On November 02 2011 22:38 Toadvine wrote:
On November 02 2011 21:54 Big J wrote: Zergs and Terrans also don't just get units that counteract weaknesses that are intended to be there. But Mech was intended to be playable in TvP, giving them battlehellions and warhounds might fix that. Mass Thor in ZvT wasn't intended to be playable, that's why the Thor has to go and make space for a unit that is worse vs roaches. And Zerg was intended to be one of the more aggressive races. In the alpha and beta days when people weren't that great at that game, the general opinion was that zerg was THE pressuring race, running all over the place and denying expos. Protoss was intended to work well on Stargate tech, that's why they are trying to fix that with oracles and tempests. Also, Protoss ground tech gets HUGE buffs through the mass recall. Like artosis said: In the current state of the game, he would ALWAYS build an extra Nexus just to have ONE mass recall, because then he could just be out on the map and harass the hell out of everything, for 400 extra minerals...
Recall is actually one great thing about HotS, and is way better than our new units combined. I'd trade all of them just to keep the current Recall in the game, which will no doubt get nerfed hard at some point in the beta.
However, the point about Stargate tech is retarded. The problem with Stargate was that the units weren't very good in direct army vs army engagements. So, this problem is solved by adding a unit that doesn't attack, and a unit that is only good vs mass air?
So in SC:BW Protoss players only went corsairs because they were so good vs hydralisks? No. Zerg players go for mass muta play vs terran because they are obviously soooo strong vs marines the main unit in standard biomech compositions? HELL NO! The problem isn't that Stargate tech is bad in combats. The problem is that Stargate tech and the complete airfleet that a Protoss invested into becomes useless in the midgame. (unlike corsairs in SC:BW) An Oracle would definatly help, because an oracle does never get useless, assuming that it doesn't die from 3spore shots. A Tempest is at least a try to give Protoss a flaggship that is playable. The carrier is not. So it has to go. The Tempest is at least a unit that will be fooled around with anew, before people decide if it is viable or not.
Sorry, but at this point, I'm pretty sure you don't understand what you're talking about at all. The exact problem with Stargate, in both PvT and PvZ, is that if it doesn't do enough damage, it is simply awful for its cost in a direct army vs army fight. Do you know what good Zergs do when they see a Stargate opening? They spore up, make tons of drones to saturate 3 bases, and then just make a shitload of roaches and lings to deny the Protoss third. Do you know what Terrans do? They expand, go up to 5-6 raxes, and then push with stim/combat shields done, and kill the Protoss natural.
The problem is very clearly that the units aren't good enough. And you even bring up Mutalisks, the perfect example of how this kind of unit can work well. Mutas have amazing combat utility compared to Phoenix/VRs. In fact, Zerg players often continue massing Mutas throughout the whole game, just because of how good they are as a core army unit.
Stargate openings being standard in BW is kind of a moot point, since SC2 Protoss is way different from BW Protoss (in fact, SC2 Terran is more similar to BW Protoss).
NO. Stargate units not being core combat units is not the problem. Making them core combat units COULD BE a solution. Making them able to harass an opponent, pin him in his base and delay pushes, a much more interesting one. I play zerg at masters league, and I can tell you that if you go Mutalisks as "core army unit", you are fucked. Play a game with zerg and engage a Marineball with mutalisks... Engage a blinkstalker ball with mutalisks. Engage mass thor with mutalisks. THOSE are combat units (and the blinkstalker is already a harass/combat hybrid). You won't beat them. And it's the same with stargate units. You don't ENGAGE even armies of marines or hydralisks with them. You try to do damage in his base and pin him there. The fact simply is, that it is easy to deny this kind of harass most of the time. If the Oracle can make the harass continue, we will see PvZ with Protoss having mapcontrol... THAT would be a good way to improve Protoss gameplay. But I guess some players would rather just have more options to sacrifice units on mineral lines, then to improve good concepts that are out there right now, but too wacky to be called stable.
Let's not pretend that mutas don't have combat value. Mutas aren't bad against stalkers (when factoring in the resource advantage Z gets due to his map control) and they're an essential component for defending marine-tank pushes.
Mutas, like banshees, are not strong for cost in combat, but they're a lot better than phoenixes. The oracle, as proposed, is way behind the phoenix.
Now imagine if the moment a zerg gathers his hydralisks, 1-2oracles fly into the mineral line, deactivate all spores and the phoenix kill all the drones and the queen. Then they fly home and help defending vs hydralisks. Armies get traded, but unlike in WOL, this isn't terrible for Protoss, because he is taking a third and zerg only has 2mining bases and even those get harrassed by entombs, which maybe don't pay for the oracle immidiatly, but they do good damage to a zerg that has no units (he just traded) and is redroning his base.
The point we are constantly trying to make, and that you keep ignoring, is that if you make oracles in addition to the phoenix, you have even less of a chance of holding the attack. You could maybe do something like that on a map with a natural ramp, like Shakuras. But on a map where you actually need to engage the attacking army, you'll get stomped if you keep making Stargate units.
Again, the Oracle might make the harassment more powerful, but it doesn't address the primary weakness of Stargate at all.
This. If I want to invest in dedicated harass, I already have stargate tech and phoenix/void available. I don't need a way to help me kill more drones with phoenix/void. What I need is either (1) a better way to defend and transition from phoenix/void, or (2) a better way to harass with gateway or robo openings. The oracle solves a problem that Protoss doesn't have.
Right now you can follow a Stargate opening up with 1) a gateway count of 5+, so you can hold ANY ATTACK roach, roach/ling, hydra/ling the opponent can throw at you. Your problem will just be that you are still on 2base vs 3base zerg if he doesn't attack. And then you just don't have the eco to stay in the game much longer, because you can't keep harassing anymore and your army composition is only useful in a defensive scenario. 2) The other route to go is to either go directly into third or colossi, then you can't hold an attack, but you're usually ahead if he doesn't attack. The Oracle sounds to me like it helps with both. in 1) you get more harass done, so you can keep playing a macro game off gateway+stargate tech and in 2) you can just phase out his warren/pool/hydra den/nydus and buy time until the colossus pops, or the delayed gateways kick in.
Right now those 2 options are coinflips, because you don't know what zerg does until you see his eggs pop. With the oracle you can preemtively do the right thing, depending on what you are doing. (also you can see what the eggs are building, as far as I remember the third ability of the oracle)
What you want is to play Terran. Switch race and you'll be fine, plenty of harass options there. But Protoss doesn't have those light high dps fighters but balancewise is as fine without them, as zerg is with them (7P and 7Z in code S).
But honestly, I think I'm wasting time on discussing with people that have an opinion that only reflects like 10% of all the players out there, while most guys (like me) just think, that we simply can't say how those new units/abilities will turn out, but obviously blizzard will try to make them work. (maybe Protoss can just always open Nexus first into gateway and arc shields in HotS vs zerg, or zerg has to go roach to expand, due to arcshield pylonlocks everygame, who knows?) Also, if you want some pro opinion on the HotS units, just watch the latest 2 episodes of State of the Game. Tyler, Destiny, JP, Artosis, Day9, Idra, Incontrol pretty much all said, that the oracle was one of the units that looked the most interesting out of all the new ones...
On November 03 2011 03:50 Koreish wrote: I'm no expert but I think most everyone is missing the point. The Oracle is "worker friendly" meaning the other player will never even noticed they've been harassed if done properly, or at least until they notice that they have no income. Since the unit is so damn fast it can get in, entomb the minerals, and get back out and a player might not even notice the little blip on the mini-map. Plus from what I saw from videos the entomb spell even has a pretty long range too 6-7 perhaps.
The oracle can even be used pretty effectively in late game too. I would imagine that if the Oracle can shut down static defenses it removes their detection ability as well. Which allows for some amazing combinations with DTs. Entomb can force all the workers to one or two patches which allows for one WP with one HT two devastate the entire line with one storm and possible have another ready for the reinforcements.
Also one the big clash comes and players have to rebuild just send the an Oracle or two over and completely shut down a Terran's or Protoss's production, or the Zergs tech so they can't recharge with the units they want. It allows you to get a much larger army than your opponent for that second engagement.
I don't know though I'm not a pro, nor do I play enough to consider myself an expert. But those are just some strategies I see that I don't think anyone has mentioned / ignored. It certainly seems like it will make for an effective unit.
1 - so it will work on noobs, great. Not very helpful.
2 - or, I can just send dts and target down the spores/turrets. or, I can just use two templar or one templar with full energy and get in and out with much less risk
3 - that's not going to do anything vs Terrans, they'll have marines around and what good is it to shut down one barracks for a bit when they have 3+ more? High risk, low reward. It'll work better vs zerg, but they can just pool larva while they wait. It's really better suited for aggressive timings.
What Protoss needs is a land-based harassment unit that is available from the gateway or robotics facility and will have value in multiple dimensions of the game. We don't need another unit that encourages Zerg to take expansions or that leaves Protoss undefended against Terran and is shut down cold by vikings. I'd be thrilled if Protoss were given the hellion or reaper. But instead, Blizzard has offered us the phoenix 2.0.
I agree with the OP completely, especially the conclusion above, except for one thing. Everything hinges on how recall on the nexus is balanced. If it is kept as it was in Blizzcon, then Protoss harassment options are opened up (outside of the Oracle, which is still too one-dimensional).
Think about Voidrays + recall. Perhaps you can wade deeper into the Zerg base before simply recalling them. Then again, recall has a few seconds before it is active, perhaps negating any aggression that would force Zerg to overcommit a queen or such.
Recall + DTs or Warp Prism harassment in general is better because you can pull them out of harms way at the last moment. Still, it would seem that proper cloak defense or vikings will keep these things from being effective.
So even with recall, not much more damage will be done per harassment run... however risk will be lowered, so more attempts may be possible if you have enough Nexus energy to support it. Again, this all revolves around recall staying on the nexus in a usable, micro-intensive form.
Having said all that, we still come back to the Oracle. It is certainly too specific, too gas expensive, and on the wrong tech tree to fill in the early to mid game harassment tool that Protoss players have been longing for.
On November 03 2011 04:25 Blacklizard wrote: What Protoss needs is a land-based harassment unit that is available from the gateway or robotics facility and will have value in multiple dimensions of the game. We don't need another unit that encourages Zerg to take expansions or that leaves Protoss undefended against Terran and is shut down cold by vikings. I'd be thrilled if Protoss were given the hellion or reaper. But instead, Blizzard has offered us the phoenix 2.0.
I agree with the OP completely, especially the conclusion above, except for one thing. Everything hinges on how recall on the nexus is balanced. If it is kept as it was in Blizzcon, then Protoss harassment options are opened up (outside of the Oracle, which is still too one-dimensional).
Think about Voidrays + recall. Perhaps you can wade deeper into the Zerg base before simply recalling them. Then again, recall has a few seconds before it is active, perhaps negating any aggression that would force Zerg to overcommit a queen or such.
Recall + DTs or Warp Prism harassment in general is better because you can pull them out of harms way at the last moment. Still, it would seem that proper cloak defense or vikings will keep these things from being effective.
So even with recall, not much more damage will be done per harassment run... however risk will be lowered, so more attempts may be possible if you have enough Nexus energy to support it. Again, this all revolves around recall staying on the nexus in a usable, micro-intensive form.
Having said all that, we still come back to the Oracle. It is certainly too specific, too gas expensive, and on the wrong tech tree to fill in the early to mid game harassment tool that Protoss players have been longing for.
What's the cost? 150/200?
It could be a better option than Phoenixes vs. Zerg since you need at least 4-5 before you can start doing damage. I'd have to play with the Oracle to see how it functions, but atm, it just doesn't seem to be what Protoss needs or would really pay for itself. I guess if you Entomb mineral lines, there's no PF, cannons, or spines, the player has no units nearby and doesn't attack the fields with the workers, then it could do some economic damage. Otherwise, I can't see it paying for itself. I guess if a Zerg has 0 overseers, 1 spore crawler, and you disable that and bring in DTs, yeah you'll do some work (although a shitton of resources is going into this harass), but otherwise, as it stands now, the Oracle doesn't seem to great.
On November 02 2011 14:56 JinnAxel wrote: Obviously a lot of people haven't explored Oracles in the HotS custom map yet. They're annoyingly good. A lot of people underestimate the sort of damage they can do, especially in conjunction with timing attacks or stuff like void ray/phoenix harass. 1 oracle can cause the opposing player to lose 500 minerals if left untouched. That's huge. Even if they react immediately, they already lost about 150 minerals.
Shutting down production buildings and tech as well as static defence in addition to economy harass makes the oracle unbelievably useful. As long as you have the apm to support it, the protoss economy can jump ahead of the opponents economy quickly. Plus it can stop gas mining...
The HOTS custom map had mistakes in the entomb ability in earlier version (it may be correct as of the latest, today's? version). One cast doesn't cover all patches. The entomb shields are auto-attacked by plantetaries and normal units. Plantetaries do splash damage against them and kill 4 shield patches per hit, killing all 4 in two hits according to what I've heard from Blizzcon.
Also don't forget that people are screwing around in the custom maps to try out new units... people would normally just go kill you if you spent 250 gas (stargate + oracle) early game on temp harass that can't stop a ground army attack. So the Oracles may seem better in non-serious testing than in a true match up.
One thing that did make them the slightest bit better is the fact that in the custom maps your workers can't surround all the patches to kill them easily. That is the only positive thing I've seen, IMO.
Overall, it's not the unit Protoss wants or needs I think.
On November 02 2011 15:51 Whitewing wrote: The defensive abilities of the oracle are interesting as well: let's say you open stargate and make one or two for harass after a FFE, and the zerg hits you with an all in. You can phase out some of the buildings in your wall to make them immune to damage (they still wall the zerg out however), and can be used as last ditch sentries in this scenario. You can also do that to really important tech structures when the enemy is about to kill them to give you more time to clean up a drop or something, like saving your twilight council or templar archives when terran does a marine/marauder drop.
It's not particularly good at defense, but it's not quite accurate to say that it's useless either.
I like to think of the ability to warp buildings out of existence as the primary advantage of the unit, with the spell to block mineral patches as icing on the cake.
Pre-ordain, from what I understand, gives you vision of the area around the structure as well for 2 whole minutes, so you can use the oracles as harassing observers without detection.
Your defense options are cool, but very very situational. It's sort of like saying you can use warp prism to power cannons were pylons went down. Yes you can, and I have maybe once or twice in a year, but it's so rare to have a warp prism in the perfect place at the perfect time. Oracle will probably be the same. I mean, are you going to be able to afford oracles just to sit around waiting for something that probably won't happen?
EDIT: Furthermore, how much energy are you realistically going to have to protect a whole wall off from a push? I mean, wouldn't you need enough to cover everything that FF doesn't? So somewhere between 3 and 6 casts? Seems unlikely.
Oh, I forgot to say in my other post that the other mistake on the HOTS custom maps is that apparently pre-ordain does not give area vision around a building. And they said the casting range for the spell was tiny, so it is changed to 3.
On November 03 2011 03:50 Koreish wrote: I'm no expert but I think most everyone is missing the point. The Oracle is "worker friendly" meaning the other player will never even noticed they've been harassed if done properly, or at least until they notice that they have no income. Since the unit is so damn fast it can get in, entomb the minerals, and get back out and a player might not even notice the little blip on the mini-map. Plus from what I saw from videos the entomb spell even has a pretty long range too 6-7 perhaps.
The oracle can even be used pretty effectively in late game too. I would imagine that if the Oracle can shut down static defenses it removes their detection ability as well. Which allows for some amazing combinations with DTs. Entomb can force all the workers to one or two patches which allows for one WP with one HT two devastate the entire line with one storm and possible have another ready for the reinforcements.
Also one the big clash comes and players have to rebuild just send the an Oracle or two over and completely shut down a Terran's or Protoss's production, or the Zergs tech so they can't recharge with the units they want. It allows you to get a much larger army than your opponent for that second engagement.
I don't know though I'm not a pro, nor do I play enough to consider myself an expert. But those are just some strategies I see that I don't think anyone has mentioned / ignored. It certainly seems like it will make for an effective unit.
The range is greater than six. From what I remember while playing, it was 9.
On November 02 2011 13:50 Vindicare605 wrote: Without getting in to why I like the Oracle. Can I ask you something?
Why is the Dark Templar not included in your list of Protoss Harassment options?
It should be. But it's pretty simple: DT's are good if your opponent isn't prepared. Otherwise, they're expensive archons. Either way, they're not consistent harass options because your opponent will certainly be prepared the second time.
So I get it right? You want a unit that pulls off harass successfully even if the opponent is prepared, that demands a response from the opponent that is out of the way of his usual combat tech and that is located conveniently in your tech path so you don't have to specifically invest in harassment? Oh.. and it should also have some utility in other roles...
Tell me one unit that fullfils those criteria...
I guess they placed it on the stargate in order to encourage more stargate play beyond the '1 VR and 2-4 pheonix' vs Zerg.
FYI: Terran harassment isn't much better, when I 'analyze' it like you did: Banshee - Huge investment in tech that must pay off. Paperplane that adds little to our combat force apart from very specific timings. Hellions - Out of the way vs P, does not contribute to combat force, shut down by sim city, needs drops Medivac/Bio drops - Big investment, reduces the forces you have at home for defense, if your opponent is prepared, you lose the drop. Reapers - One dimensional, cost a ton of gas and take forever to build, easily shut down by warp in or speedlings
Damn.. terran harassment options suck hard...
Not fair criticism.
Banshees do damage due to flight and range even if they don't have cloak. DTs are melee and slow in comparison, get trapped due to no flight, and can't normally be used in your army because they don't have range and are too expensive to be meatshields like zealots.
Starport tech opens up all tech options for Terran and is never a bad idea... hardly, it seems necessary in 90% of Terran games.
Hellion drops have seen play, even if they require specific builds/timings.
Medivac/bio drops may detract from your main army temporarily, but they win games all the time because they are high reward. Bio drops have a lot of ranged DPS, are invulnerable to worker only defense, and can kill building very quickly. And they are part of your normal army 99% of the time, so it's no investment to get harassment tech.
Reapers: I may agree with you there a bit. They are basically like DT harass, except they can get in and escape easier b/c of jump jetpacks. So it will be like DT harass if nexus Recall stays in a usable format in HotS. Well, except they are faster and have range... but they aren't cloaked so yeah, comparable.
On November 02 2011 14:56 JinnAxel wrote: Obviously a lot of people haven't explored Oracles in the HotS custom map yet. They're annoyingly good. A lot of people underestimate the sort of damage they can do, especially in conjunction with timing attacks or stuff like void ray/phoenix harass. 1 oracle can cause the opposing player to lose 500 minerals if left untouched. That's huge. Even if they react immediately, they already lost about 150 minerals.
Shutting down production buildings and tech as well as static defence in addition to economy harass makes the oracle unbelievably useful. As long as you have the apm to support it, the protoss economy can jump ahead of the opponents economy quickly. Plus it can stop gas mining...
The HOTS custom map had mistakes in the entomb ability in earlier version (it may be correct as of the latest, today's? version). One cast doesn't cover all patches. The entomb shields are auto-attacked by plantetaries and normal units. Plantetaries do splash damage against them and kill 4 shield patches per hit, killing all 4 in two hits according to what I've heard from Blizzcon.
Also don't forget that people are screwing around in the custom maps to try out new units... people would normally just go kill you if you spent 250 gas (stargate + oracle) early game on temp harass that can't stop a ground army attack. So the Oracles may seem better in non-serious testing than in a true match up.
One thing that did make them the slightest bit better is the fact that in the custom maps your workers can't surround all the patches to kill them easily. That is the only positive thing I've seen, IMO.
Overall, it's not the unit Protoss wants or needs I think.
People just need to stop obsessing over the numbers. There will be plenty of time to fine tune that come the actual beta.
On a side note about entomb. Wouldn't you rather cover all but one mineral patch than all of them? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the drones will idle if all mineral patches are blocked but will still mine if one is there. Against a skilled player it might not make a difference, but if you can do it in the heat of battle they might not notice for a long time without the idle drone indicator going off
On November 03 2011 05:20 Dommk wrote: People just need to stop obsessing over the numbers. There will be plenty of time to fine tune that come the actual beta.
On a side note about entomb. Wouldn't you rather cover all but one mineral patch than all of them? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the drones will idle if all mineral patches are blocked but will still mine if one is there. Against a skilled player it might not make a difference, but if you can do it in the heat of battle they might not notice for a long time without the idle drone indicator going off
as far as I have seen from the official announcment video (the one where 5/8 patches got blocked - maybe only due to bad placement of the spell, idk), the drones kept trying to mine from the patches that where blocked, even with the 3 other patches being available. But I'm sure this is a thing that blizzard will play around with at the beginning of the beta, once they see how strong the oracle really is in more competetive use.
On November 03 2011 05:20 Dommk wrote: People just need to stop obsessing over the numbers. There will be plenty of time to fine tune that come the actual beta.
On a side note about entomb. Wouldn't you rather cover all but one mineral patch than all of them? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the drones will idle if all mineral patches are blocked but will still mine if one is there. Against a skilled player it might not make a difference, but if you can do it in the heat of battle they might not notice for a long time without the idle drone indicator going off
Does it really cover as many as 7 patches? In the Blizzcon presentation, it got 5. Maybe it was poor placement, but in any case, it would be nice if someone who went to Blizzcon would respond on this matter.
On November 03 2011 05:20 Dommk wrote: People just need to stop obsessing over the numbers. There will be plenty of time to fine tune that come the actual beta.
The problem is that for those shields on the minerals, terran DPS in the mid game is so high that the shields will go down instantly vs terran, slower vs zerg, and much slower vs protoss. Balancing that is going to be a little strange due to the differences in DPS in the early-mid
What if they just buffed protoss's current harass techniques?
1) For example, a really subtle change would be something like allowing sentries to take up 1/8 of a warp prism instead of 1/4. This means that you could fit 4 sentries and 2 zealots, or 2 stalkers, or 2 high templar, or 2 DT, or 6 sentries and a DT, or whatever so you could actually do some damage with those sentries and their forcefields.
That would let you do a similar thing to the oracle (delay mining) while also doing some damage and forcing them to pull their army. And it would be a little more than a light tickling.
2) Another change could involve changing the DT cost to require more minerals (like 225 or 200) and less gas (100 or 75) providing more difference between them and HTs in terms of archons (DTs would be overall cheaper for archons). The dark shrine already costs 250 minerals and takes forever to build: thats a huge up-front cost and makes it easy to scout. But imagine if protoss could then make individual DTs for less gas.
This could also involve making the shrine less expensive/take less time to build, but making DTs only build from gateways or something, or maybe just move more slowly, or have less damage so the enemy gets a warning.
3) Allowing massive units to take up only 3/4 of a dropship so that you could combine the colossus with some actual support (like a sentry) to make retreat from the splash more difficult for the enemy workers.
Read the full comment. Also Marauders aren't tank units. They have 125life for 100/25 costs. Stimmed they have 105life. Zealots have 150life, 50 in shields and cost 100 (also lesser passive costs, because they don't require tech labs).
Marauder are tank units with medivac support, which are no baracks unit. Also Marines and Marauders are no harass units. Marine/Marauder drops are, which again requires a Starport.
I was hoping you would see how ignorant your argument is by by pointing out something in such a ridiculous fashion.
EDIT: I'm just going to make this simple.
Marines, Marauders, Stim, Combat Shield, Concussive Shell, Ghosts and Reapers are all T 1.5 Tech, but Templars, Archons, DT's, Blink and Charge are not. Terrans OFTEN tech safely to Starport tech on a SINGLE base where as Protoss can barely even tech to Templars on two.
Hell, by the time Protoss actually manages to get everything needed it is usually 20mins+ into the game on 3/4 bases.
Different races are different and you cannot simply compare something that comes out of a barracks to something that comes out of a Gateway because Protoss and Terran ARE NOT THE SAME
And when was the last time you have seen a Protoss win without Colossus? The unit is a necessity
We are talking about starcraft and not C&C, try again with a better argument. In C&C T3>T2>T1. In Starcraft not. All those Tier 1,2,3 arguments are just simplyfications to make talking about implied tech (costs) and time to get the tech out simpler. Example: + Show Spoiler +
150/0+150/100+150/100+50/25+150/150 = 650/375 are the passive costs for a battlecruiser. 250/0+150/100+150/100+250/200+100/150 = 900/550 are the passive costs for a broodlord. If we define battlecruiser as T3, then broodlords are T5.
But that's really not very useful when talking about nonmirror matchups. As long as you don't build Colossi, Templar or Carriers, "T1" Marines counter every protoss unit, no matter what "tier" they are. (I'm not saying that one can't rely on defensive mechanisms like FFs against them! But in direct engagments the marine wins) Just think about Mech ("T2" and "T3" mixture) in PvT and Bio ("T1" and "T2" mixture). Guess which one has proven to be playable and which hasn't?
Seriously? You harp on like one part of one line as my "argument"? I just used Tiers as an easy way to explain the relative timings.
The part where I explain how Terran often get to Starport tech one a single base where as Protoss generally only get to Templar by 3bases should have been enough.
And your use of Tiers is just as awful. That isn't even what I meant
But what does it matter than Mech hasn't been proven vs Protoss? Terran have a viable way to play that is extremely effective .
The point still stands, races aren't the same, you can't compare anything that comes from the barracks to anything that comes from the gateway, that isn't how the game is built
Because my argument doesn't fall if you replace "Tier X" with "starport tech". Also there are Protoss 2gate 1robo openings. Protoss dt openings. Protoss Stargate openings in PvT. (all of 1base)
And Protoss have viable ways to play play PvT, PvP and ZvP with or without colossi. (though I'd always say that in standard play you always want to be able to have each tech available in lategame) Terrans don't have viable ways to play TvP without Stargates. And they don't have viable ways to play lategame (=standard, else someone just made a mistake) TvZ or TvT on pure baracks. That's why I say that gateway is a more complete tech path than Barracks.
This is such a ridiculous argument
What does it matter that you have to produce a Starport? Protoss may have a tech tree that complements the gateway well but to reach that requires a 20min+ game. Terran can safely get to Starport on a single base. Not to mention in the current metagame it is no longer possible to play a soley gateway tech game
What defines play styles like Mech is HOW the style is played, not where the units are made.
And my point still stands: I'm pretty certain that due to the in the quotes mentioned arguments, "Protoss reapers" would have to suck even more than Terran reapers (and they suck pretty hard right now).
That is something play testing would decide
Really, "how something is played" is more important than where and from which tech it is made (my point all along)? So why do you keep arguing that Terrans can build a Starport of 1base, while protoss needs a 20min game to get all the tech they need to kill a complete bio composition. Matter of the fact is, that Protoss can play very active through all those 20mins. (with dts, with blink, with allins, with warp prisms) At least once you are high enough level to have a decent amount of multitasking for that.
Who says I'm complaining? I'm trying to make a point. The point YOU are complaining that Terran "have" to make a Starport is absolutely absurd
For the time gateway styles did work forging Colossus actually had a meaningful impact on the game. It allowed you to get MUCH faster upgrades, faster expos, defend drops easier and be much more active around the map as opposed to the turtle style of Colossus.
But it isn't possible anymore. I have yet to see any standard play using these pure styles. But the point still stands, you play differently.
How does forging Medivacs and Viking expand on Bio play? It Doesn't. Not to mention skipping Starport does not have the same implications on Terran as it does Protoss.
Protoss is a race divided by tech.
Protoss may have three production facilities but it is not those three that define them, it is what is beyond that. Fleet Beacon, Templar Archives/Dark Shrine and Support bay are significantly more meaningful than the Gateway, Robotics Facility and Stargate.
Gateways are still made en-mass lategame as Protoss regardless of which tree you take but what makes them meaningful is the Tech you have got along the way.
Stop trying to compare races so casually. Why things work for one race and not the other is because it is completely different race
so you think blizzard has been working nearly a year now on HotS, but there is a reason that protoss has NOT been given a reaper/hellion unit on gateway tech? I'm sure there was a contest in the developing team with the rules: First three units a single person comes up with, make it into the game for protoss. (lol) And sadly all those great, great units some of the guys had in mind didn't make it, because the dumbest of those guys sadly had the fastest handwriting...
It was one of exactly 2reasons, why Protoss didn't get this (terranlike) unit, that people like you want them to have: a) The unit didn't fit in the Protoss concept, so they didn't want Protoss to have it b) The unit couldn't be balanced, therefore was either overpowered without completly redesigning parts of the Protoss race; or so underpowered, that it would not have seen use anyway And I really don't blame them for that. Even if there was a way to implement such a unit and make it "protossish": Why do it, when they are planning to fix that "issue" in protoss gameplay anyway with mass recall? People keep focusing on why new units don't do what they want them to do, while blizzard is adding huge features all around the game. Who plays roaches without speed? Noone. Who plays hydras without speed? Noone. Maybe Hydras with speed will be playable! Who plays mass (blink) stalkers to harass a terran with concussive shells? Noone. Who plays them, when you can just blink in, kill something and teleport home? Maybe that is what people will do! Cliffwalking colossi, walking into a mineral line, focusing scvs and then being teleported home, once the viking fleet arrives. Oracles, whichever balancing they will have shutting down spores and turrets, so protoss air harass/dts do major damage.
Those are all possibilities how the game may work out. We don't know yet, but ignoring that it may work out like that, and saying that a protoss reaper unit would surely have a big harass role while the terran reaper unit does not, is just whining about/glorifying things that we don't know how they will/would turn out.
Recall will change a lot if it makes it into the game. I think a lot of people are expecting it to be scrapped or nerfed to the ground because it's really stupidly good. But if it does make it, then everything P has looks a lot better, including options like blink stalkers.
Recall staying on the Nexus is the single most important thing Protoss could get in HotS. It doesn't need to be mass recall if that is too good, it could be 1 unit per 50 energy, and it'd still be OK. Or one unit per 25 energy but only non-massive units. Blizzard can find a way to make it work, and I think it can work and be balanced and bring options to Protoss like harassment.
On November 03 2011 01:15 RedMosquito wrote: wow i cant believe theres still threads like this. The oracle is amazing! People are just not thinking of the applications. I for one cant wait to oracle storm drop people. entomb the mineral patches to clump of the workers, storm everything and pick up and leave. this unit is gonna be fun as hell
Have you tried it out? WhiteRa was at Blizzcon and he did, and he was pretty critical of the Oracle on his stream.
And he was using HT drops when nobody else in the pro scene was, if I recall. As in, he doesn't mind using casting units if they are decent.
On November 03 2011 01:28 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On November 03 2011 01:15 RedMosquito wrote: wow i cant believe theres still threads like this. The oracle is amazing! People are just not thinking of the applications. I for one cant wait to oracle storm drop people. entomb the mineral patches to clump of the workers, storm everything and pick up and leave. this unit is gonna be fun as hell
Have you tried it out? WhiteRa was at Blizzcon and he did, and he was pretty critical of the Oracle on his stream.
And he was using HT drops when nobody else in the pro scene was, if I recall. As in, he doesn't mind using casting units if they are decent.
Uh then why was he directly quoted as saying that Blizz is adding too many casters.
On November 03 2011 02:36 Rivkeh wrote: I'm actually a bit concerned with the Oracle being too good because it takes virtually no TIME for the oracle to inflict its harassment. Imagine if you had to stop a single muta from attacking a mineral line a single time. It'd be almost impossible without a mistake on the zerg's behalf. The Oracle flies in at some relatively respectable speed, hits the mineral line with one spell, and moseys away. It looks to be relatively fast, and that ability is pretty powerful, but either the unit is too good at hitting and escaping or its easily run down by an air unit. Due to the massive blank air space behind basically every main base, theres plenty of space for an oracle to hide behind, and a ground force has NO chance of killing it unless it deliberately runs into marines. With no need to spend TIME in the mineral line, it'll be incredibly hard to kill unless theres an air unit that can actually run it down to death, in which case its worthless. Now this could be better balanced if the Oracle did anything but entomb minerals, but it has no other (meaningful) active abilities.
This is sort of what I was talking about with my concerns about how 1-dimensional the oracle is right now. If it's going to be expensive, on stargate tech, and have no direct combat value, then it needs to have extremely strong harassment value (or it won't be used). But if the harassment is strong enough to offset its drawbacks, then it will run the risk of being overpowered in many situations (e.g. if Protoss gets far enough ahead to afford oracles, then they can't lose). This is the tightrope Blizzard has chosen to walk with the oracle.
I agree, I think I mentioned this in a different Oracle thread actually.
Fundamentally the unit concept is flawed for balance purposes. I honestly don't see any way to balance it because its got no "combat" utility at all, so it needs to be AMAZING at its purpose in order to be worth it. But doing that could make it horrendously OP.
Think about it this way: both HTs and the Oracle have no normal attack, so their abilities need to make up for that lack for anyone to bother building them. HTs make up for it by actually doing heavy damage with feedback and storm, Oracles don't do any actual damage at all and have no way to defend themselves. So the Oracle's abilities must be really, really worth it to take up that slack, probably more "effective" than Storm is, or the unit isn't going to be worth using.
It is hurting my brain so hard that some posters are commenting on phase shift shutting down Zerg buildings. For every Oracle you buy, Zerg can afford another spire, or pool, or roach warren, or Ultralisk cavern. Seriously... whatever the critical building is, Zerg can just build one more as soon as he sees an oracle. Right? The most inconvenient will be a greater spire. But with the oracle's low HP, late game if I were Zerg I'd just build 2 or 3 spores around my expensive buildings, plus your one queen, and that means oracles are shut down or forced to use their energy to turn off spores first.
Obviously phase shift will be not very good against Terran except for possibly upgrades or the starport.
Seriously... it's just a slightly better version of the Overseer's ability which has made a difference in about 1 pro match ever. Gah!!!!
Think of it like this... ghosts are good against HTs because they cost less than the damage they do. Oracles... costing more than 90% of the buildings they can shut down is not great.
On November 03 2011 01:28 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On November 03 2011 01:15 RedMosquito wrote: wow i cant believe theres still threads like this. The oracle is amazing! People are just not thinking of the applications. I for one cant wait to oracle storm drop people. entomb the mineral patches to clump of the workers, storm everything and pick up and leave. this unit is gonna be fun as hell
Have you tried it out? WhiteRa was at Blizzcon and he did, and he was pretty critical of the Oracle on his stream.
And he was using HT drops when nobody else in the pro scene was, if I recall. As in, he doesn't mind using casting units if they are decent.
Uh then why was he directly quoted as saying that Blizz is adding too many casters.
Because the Oracle ... is not going to help Protoss? I am the biggest caster unit fan on the planet. I love infestors (after they got balanced), ghosts (once balanced), HT, arbiters, the raven, sci vessels, you name it, I love it.
On November 03 2011 03:59 Big J wrote: Tyler, Destiny, JP, Artosis, Day9, Idra, Incontrol pretty much all said, that the oracle was one of the units that looked the most interesting out of all the new ones...
I'm glad you've brought this up because it shows you don't actually understand the problem. Practically nobody is saying that the Oracle isn't going to be "interesting". The ability to phase out buildings, in particular, could be incredibly powerful with protoss timing attacks. With that it could be an amazing unit and a good addition.
However that entirely misses the point, because Blizzard isn't putting it in for that purpose. Its supposed to be a "raider". Consequently what people are saying is that it really, really doesn't address the Protoss' need for a relatively early harrass that isn't basically all-in. And the very concept of the unit doesn't address the problem that Blizzard specifically STATED that it was there to address. To quote the presentation on the new units: "...they don't really have a solid...er...constant raiding option throughout the whole game especially in the early-mid game"
Source:
Whether or not the Oracle is going to be useful is immaterial next to the fact that theres just no real way it can be an effective and balanced harrass unit that can be used and balanced for both early and late game.
[quote]1) For example, a really subtle change would be something like allowing sentries to take up 1/8 of a warp prism instead of 1/4. This means that you could fit 4 sentries and 2 zealots, or 2 stalkers, or 2 high templar, or 2 DT, or 6 sentries and a DT, or whatever so you could actually do some damage with those sentries and their forcefields.[quote]
I actually think mixing up the amount of units you can get in a warp prism would help a lot. Admittedly there still isn't an awful lot of good stuff TO drop without a large investmen but it would help.
On November 02 2011 14:09 SMD wrote: "-The oracle can't shoot and is one-dimensional. Even if the oracle is balanced in such a way that it surpasses the harassment value of the phoenix and void ray, it lacks even the limited combat utility of its stargate peers. If Protoss already can't afford to get phoenixes or void rays against Terran, how can we expect them to afford a dedicated harassment unit that offers even less defensive value? Moreover, unlike the void ray (or the banshee or mutalisk), the oracle is only capable of raiding, and cannot be recycled into other functions after the harass has been defended. The mark of a robust unit design (like the void ray) is that it retains its value in many roles and is over-powered in none of them. Because the oracle is exceptionally one-dimensional, its harassment ability needs to be extremely strong in order to justify its cost. Blizzard is painting itself into a corner where the oracle's single function will need to be overpowered in order to offset its failings across the board. "
It can fit in well with an army though, or in conjunction with an attack, espicially against zerg.
zergs replenish armies quickly with lings/roaches. Well while your attacking the front, the oracles go in, lock out the roach warnen/pool or any structure u want, and they CANNOT MAKE IT, thus limiting there ability to replace there army during/after the battle
Well to start with, Browder specifically said the goal of the oracle was for it not to be a combat unit that can be added to a Protoss death ball. So he doesn't want it to be like the Banshee at all in that regard.
However that doesn't mean that entomb is the only ability that's worth anything on the Oracle. The ability to shut down turrets and crawlers can be extremely helpful in upping the effectiveness of Protoss's other harassment options.
Imagine how good Phoenixes or Void Rays will be if you have an Oracle around that can disable crawlers and turrets for them.
Just because it's a support unit/raider doesn't mean it's entirely one dimensional.
This crap about not adding to the deathball is....crap. First, Protoss's deathball really isn't stronger than MMVG or infestor+broodlord, so it seems silly to focus on that issue. Second, the tempest is the perfect complement to a colossus deathball since it kills corruptors and vikings. So Blizzard is strengthening the deathball significantly--they're just not doing it with the oracle. It's sort of like how Blizzard said there were too many good ways to kill workers, but ignored that the best options belong to Terran and Zerg. Then they give Protoss a dedicated raiding unit that also can't kill workers.
The idea of removing supply from the deathball is not just applied to protoss. Dustin stated he wanted to do it for all the races.
Prime example: The Shredder. A unit that costs supply and is specifically designed to NOT work when with your army.
On November 03 2011 02:36 Rivkeh wrote: I'm actually a bit concerned with the Oracle being too good because it takes virtually no TIME for the oracle to inflict its harassment. Imagine if you had to stop a single muta from attacking a mineral line a single time. It'd be almost impossible without a mistake on the zerg's behalf. The Oracle flies in at some relatively respectable speed, hits the mineral line with one spell, and moseys away. It looks to be relatively fast, and that ability is pretty powerful, but either the unit is too good at hitting and escaping or its easily run down by an air unit. Due to the massive blank air space behind basically every main base, theres plenty of space for an oracle to hide behind, and a ground force has NO chance of killing it unless it deliberately runs into marines. With no need to spend TIME in the mineral line, it'll be incredibly hard to kill unless theres an air unit that can actually run it down to death, in which case its worthless. Now this could be better balanced if the Oracle did anything but entomb minerals, but it has no other (meaningful) active abilities.
This is sort of what I was talking about with my concerns about how 1-dimensional the oracle is right now. If it's going to be expensive, on stargate tech, and have no direct combat value, then it needs to have extremely strong harassment value (or it won't be used). But if the harassment is strong enough to offset its drawbacks, then it will run the risk of being overpowered in many situations (e.g. if Protoss gets far enough ahead to afford oracles, then they can't lose). This is the tightrope Blizzard has chosen to walk with the oracle.
Thats exactly what I've been thinking, I honestly think the oracle can't be balanced by its current design. It needs to be good, but respondable to, and given its current 1-dimensional design, there doesn't seem to be a way to make it useful and also give the other races options to shut it down without completely blocking it out.
Best case scenario for the harassed is thus as follows: Oracle comes in, shuts down some mineral patches with a 75 health blockade.
Gas continues to be mined as usual. As this is a best case scenario, all other attacking units are out of position so some spare SCV are ordered to start attacking the 75hp blockade while marines makes their way over there. Marines proceed to kill the blockade and everything is back to normal.
Total loss: 0 workers, 0 gas loss, minor mineral loss. Less so than if you do a failed drop that just causes the person to pull drones for a short while. It also has no potential to ever do any serious harm, unlike a real drop that can wipe out an entire base with all workers as well as proceed on to the next target. There is simply no reason to be scared of the Oracle or even prepare for it as it has no potential to ever do any major damage regardless. There is no way to ever skill with it either, it has no excitement and the opponent doesn't even have to react. It is just a button press and the opponent loses some seconds of mining time regardless of how well or poorly you or him reacted.
As such, it is in my opinion a poor unit design and no amount of balance can "fix" it with how it is currently working. This is without even going into the fact that since it cannot help with defense, it is extremely risky to even build it. The sound option would be to give the abilities of the oracle to the warp prism, at least then it gives Protoss some decent harassment.
Just bring back the Purifier, remove the "empowering attack" aspect of the unit, and change it's +biological attack to +light instead. Make it require a Twilight Council to build from a warp gate, give it a reasonable cost, and there you go Protss now has their harass unit. The best part is it would require practically zero effort on Blizzard's part seeing as how the unit is already in the game engine.
On November 03 2011 02:36 Rivkeh wrote: I'm actually a bit concerned with the Oracle being too good because it takes virtually no TIME for the oracle to inflict its harassment. Imagine if you had to stop a single muta from attacking a mineral line a single time. It'd be almost impossible without a mistake on the zerg's behalf. The Oracle flies in at some relatively respectable speed, hits the mineral line with one spell, and moseys away. It looks to be relatively fast, and that ability is pretty powerful, but either the unit is too good at hitting and escaping or its easily run down by an air unit. Due to the massive blank air space behind basically every main base, theres plenty of space for an oracle to hide behind, and a ground force has NO chance of killing it unless it deliberately runs into marines. With no need to spend TIME in the mineral line, it'll be incredibly hard to kill unless theres an air unit that can actually run it down to death, in which case its worthless. Now this could be better balanced if the Oracle did anything but entomb minerals, but it has no other (meaningful) active abilities.
This is sort of what I was talking about with my concerns about how 1-dimensional the oracle is right now. If it's going to be expensive, on stargate tech, and have no direct combat value, then it needs to have extremely strong harassment value (or it won't be used). But if the harassment is strong enough to offset its drawbacks, then it will run the risk of being overpowered in many situations (e.g. if Protoss gets far enough ahead to afford oracles, then they can't lose). This is the tightrope Blizzard has chosen to walk with the oracle.
Thats exactly what I've been thinking, I honestly think the oracle can't be balanced by its current design. It needs to be good, but respondable to, and given its current 1-dimensional design, there doesn't seem to be a way to make it useful and also give the other races options to shut it down without completely blocking it out.
To be honest, if it stays the way it is right now...it could be balanced if it's made super-cheap. I mean, if it does literally no damage to units and can be countered by mass-expanding, then just making it very affordable could do the trick. Like the red-flame hellion.
kcdc is right in that there's no way an EXPENSIVE oracle would be balanced any time soon; either too expensive to be worth it, or too good if worth the price
On November 03 2011 07:25 Amlitzer wrote: Just bring back the Purifier, remove the "empowering attack" aspect of the unit, and change it's +biological attack to +light instead. Make it require a Twilight Council to build from a warp gate, give it a reasonable cost, and there you go Protss now has their harass unit. The best part is it would require practically zero effort on Blizzard's part seeing as how the unit is already in the game engine.
IIRC at one of the panels, DB said they twiddled with it for a couple months and it just wasn't working out. They must have seen some inherent flaw that isn't obvious to us.
On November 03 2011 07:25 Amlitzer wrote: Just bring back the Purifier, remove the "empowering attack" aspect of the unit, and change it's +biological attack to +light instead. Make it require a Twilight Council to build from a warp gate, give it a reasonable cost, and there you go Protss now has their harass unit. The best part is it would require practically zero effort on Blizzard's part seeing as how the unit is already in the game engine.
IIRC at one of the panels, DB said they twiddled with it for a couple months and it just wasn't working out. They must have seen some inherent flaw that isn't obvious to us.
Yes, but that was in reference to the "empowering attack" aspect of the unit. Originally, the unit started off weak and with each kill it would get stronger, kind of like the "ranking" system you find in a lot of C&C games (coincidence... I think not). Just give it a straight up standard attack, like every other unit in the game currently, and that issue is resolved. The unit also had a researchable ability that fired a bolt of psi lightning that jumped between units of the same type. This would be a perfect ability for harassment, and it would also help toss hold off marine and zergling all ins.
Thinking about the oracle more, I think Blizzard could greatly improve the concept of the unit by changing the mineral block ability to a stasis field like ability that only affects worker units. This allows toss to have an effective late game harass unit, which does not kill workers (thus keeping with the original unit concept), and which does not add to the deathball that blizzard is avoiding. Additionally, this can help toss defend against a terran who knows he is behind, and pulls all his worker in attempt to all in or base trade with his opponent.
On November 03 2011 02:00 bovineblitz wrote: Okay then.
Banshees.
you have to invest 200/200 in cloak, otherwise stalkers shut it down very easily. observer + stalker are maybe a bit off if you want to get ht/blink/dt, but if you are agressive enough with your phoenix you can force a cloak near the terran base which also shuts down banshees see grubby vs happy on daybreak.
Oh great, so if I have pro-level intuition I can rally my phoenix to where a banshee is moving across the map, that sounds like a perfectly reasonable solution, I'll figure out he's going banshee by scouting his ramp and make phoenixes and then have the sense to rally RIGHT TO the banshee.
Nevermind that even if he doesn't go cloak he can still pick off a couple probes, has a high DPS unit that works well with bio, forced crappy stalkers, forced detection, and can switch off the techlab to make 2x medivacs immediately.
Banshee fits all the criteria.
I'm just ignoring the rant on phoenixes. I just said it is possible, not that you could easily do that. But i thought the idea behind the phoenix is to harass and scout his base. So you have actual time to prepare for them. together with the possibility to cut off the direct path, you have even more time to react.
A banshee is 100/150. which would, in a naive way, be like 5 probes. if he can kill you 5 probes without you being able to react to that you have other problems than banshees. But I'm sorry you have to react to banshees by building stalkers. Seems like any T and esp. Z player can just ignore the oracle. not.
I also can't see how it works "well" with bio. It isn't bad to have them, but they don't add the utility of, say a medivac which heals your bioball and gives highground vision. It also forced detection but once you hold off the harass you can further use the obs to scout the terran base. it's not like the oh so liked turret at the terran expansion which is just there. maybe to hold off dts or observers but doesn't do anything beside that.
On November 03 2011 02:28 kcdc wrote: This. If I want to invest in dedicated harass, I already have stargate tech and phoenix/void available. I don't need a way to help me kill more drones with phoenix/void. What I need is either (1) a better way to defend and transition from phoenix/void, or (2) a better way to harass with gateway or robo openings. The oracle solves a problem that Protoss doesn't have.
No it's just something you want.
BTW a banshee is NOT 100/150
A banshee only costs 150/100! The same as a phoenix.
On November 03 2011 07:34 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On November 03 2011 07:25 Amlitzer wrote: Just bring back the Purifier, remove the "empowering attack" aspect of the unit, and change it's +biological attack to +light instead. Make it require a Twilight Council to build from a warp gate, give it a reasonable cost, and there you go Protss now has their harass unit. The best part is it would require practically zero effort on Blizzard's part seeing as how the unit is already in the game engine.
IIRC at one of the panels, DB said they twiddled with it for a couple months and it just wasn't working out. They must have seen some inherent flaw that isn't obvious to us.
Yes, but that was in reference to the "empowering attack" aspect of the unit. Originally, the unit started off weak and with each kill it would get stronger, kind of like the "ranking" system you find in a lot of C&C games (coincidence... I think not). Just give it a straight up standard attack, like every other unit in the game currently, and that issue is resolved. The unit also had a researchable ability that fired a bolt of psi lightning that jumped between units of the same type. This would be a perfect ability for harassment, and it would also help toss hold off marine and zergling all ins.
Thinking about the oracle more, I think Blizzard could greatly improve the concept of the unit by changing the mineral block ability to a stasis field like ability that only affects worker units. This allows toss to have an effective late game harass unit, which does not kill workers (thus keeping with the original unit concept), and which does not add to the deathball that blizzard is avoiding. Additionally, this can help toss defend against a terran who knows he is behind, and pulls all his worker in attempt to all in or base trade with his opponent.
Wow your idea about the oracle is the exact thing that I came up with too. Plus instead of entomb being just a boring spell that targets stationary minerals, you are targeting moving workers which encourages the opponent to split them and encourages you to hit as many as possible. Adds a ton more excitement and a bit more utility (helping with terran all-ins).
Another thread about this and a huge OP. Yet again the fact that the oracle can be used to help during a seige (via disabling defensive structures) is avoided. Yet again the fact that the oracle can help other raiding options (via, again, disabling defensive structure) is avoided. Thanks for the wall of text but it comes off as pre-emptive whining to me.
On November 03 2011 02:36 Rivkeh wrote: I'm actually a bit concerned with the Oracle being too good because it takes virtually no TIME for the oracle to inflict its harassment. Imagine if you had to stop a single muta from attacking a mineral line a single time. It'd be almost impossible without a mistake on the zerg's behalf. The Oracle flies in at some relatively respectable speed, hits the mineral line with one spell, and moseys away. It looks to be relatively fast, and that ability is pretty powerful, but either the unit is too good at hitting and escaping or its easily run down by an air unit. Due to the massive blank air space behind basically every main base, theres plenty of space for an oracle to hide behind, and a ground force has NO chance of killing it unless it deliberately runs into marines. With no need to spend TIME in the mineral line, it'll be incredibly hard to kill unless theres an air unit that can actually run it down to death, in which case its worthless. Now this could be better balanced if the Oracle did anything but entomb minerals, but it has no other (meaningful) active abilities.
This is sort of what I was talking about with my concerns about how 1-dimensional the oracle is right now. If it's going to be expensive, on stargate tech, and have no direct combat value, then it needs to have extremely strong harassment value (or it won't be used). But if the harassment is strong enough to offset its drawbacks, then it will run the risk of being overpowered in many situations (e.g. if Protoss gets far enough ahead to afford oracles, then they can't lose). This is the tightrope Blizzard has chosen to walk with the oracle.
Thats exactly what I've been thinking, I honestly think the oracle can't be balanced by its current design. It needs to be good, but respondable to, and given its current 1-dimensional design, there doesn't seem to be a way to make it useful and also give the other races options to shut it down without completely blocking it out.
To be honest, if it stays the way it is right now...it could be balanced if it's made super-cheap. I mean, if it does literally no damage to units and can be countered by mass-expanding, then just making it very affordable could do the trick. Like the red-flame hellion.
kcdc is right in that there's no way an EXPENSIVE oracle would be balanced any time soon; either too expensive to be worth it, or too good if worth the price
You can't have a cheap unit which is countered by taking another expansion because that means a cheap unit is forcing you to spread the area you MUST control and exposing a number of weaknesses, while the 'Toss army is still completely capable of launching an assault on your exposed expansion or even into your natural area. This is an inverse of the FFE relationship in PvZ where P takes its expo early, but loses any ability to immediately attack due to the investment, so Z frequently seeks to take advantage of this by taking a 3rd. This is a somewhat tenable interaction because P has to make a large investment, if the Oracle is cheap, P will retain its striking power, imagine trying to double expand against some solid 3 gate aggression.
On November 03 2011 06:52 Blacklizard wrote: It is hurting my brain so hard that some posters are commenting on phase shift shutting down Zerg buildings. For every Oracle you buy, Zerg can afford another spire, or pool, or roach warren, or Ultralisk cavern. Seriously... whatever the critical building is, Zerg can just build one more as soon as he sees an oracle. Right? The most inconvenient will be a greater spire. But with the oracle's low HP, late game if I were Zerg I'd just build 2 or 3 spores around my expensive buildings, plus your one queen, and that means oracles are shut down or forced to use their energy to turn off spores first.
Obviously phase shift will be not very good against Terran except for possibly upgrades or the starport.
Seriously... it's just a slightly better version of the Overseer's ability which has made a difference in about 1 pro match ever. Gah!!!!
Think of it like this... ghosts are good against HTs because they cost less than the damage they do. Oracles... costing more than 90% of the buildings they can shut down is not great.
Hmmm..
First, maybe you don't need to SHOW your oracle until you want to phase out a building, so that you don't give Zerg time to build their 'critical building'? Showing any harass unit beforehand usually renders them less effective.
Secondly, even IF it is like you say, and IF the Zerg builds 2-3 spores plus duplicates his ENTIRE TECH TREE to avoid units being locked out, seems to me like forcing 2-3 spores per building plus investing in duplicate unneccesary buildings for ONE unit seems like a pretty good investment.
If the Zerg is so frickin ahead that he can afford to build extra buildings plus 2-3 spores per building preemtively, he will have won anyhow, or you should just be able to kill him outright because all that static def + structures leaves him with no army.
Also, "it hurts my brain so hard" that people keep comparing the unit cost with the building cost. It is like assuming you will only use the unit once and then never again. It's like me saying that building 4 infestors for 400/600 to take out a nexus is clearly a bad investment and will never be done, because you can "just build another nexus".
Having SAID that, I totally agree that as a solo raider, perhaps it's a little lackluster, if we define raider as being able to cause _economic_ damage. However, do we have to be so narrow-minded in terms of what constitutes successful raiding? If you got a phoenix fast unit being able to delay and deny tech (and thus timing attacks) for 45 seconds or more, isn't that good?
I truly believe it will be totally kick-ass in combination with other units + timings, especially vs Zerg. Spore + crawler makes your base DT safe? Not anymore...
Vs T it doesn't quite have the same impact, for sure. I still feel it could be damned good though. I dunno, I guess people will have to play around with it more. Can you phase out a bunker with units inside? Planetary Fortress making harassment difficult? No problem - free kills for your zealot drop for 45 seconds, let those SCV's repair that PF all they like, they'll all die anyhow before the army gets there.
Anyway, enough rambling. I really feel though that the ones complaining that it's no good for raiding or just plain no good and to expensive haven't really thought the applications of this unit through. Sure it won't win you the game on it's own, but it definitely does NOT suck, and is by no means only a 'slightly better Overseer'.
On November 03 2011 09:07 willoc wrote: Another thread about this and a huge OP. Yet again the fact that the oracle can be used to help during a seige (via disabling defensive structures) is avoided. Yet again the fact that the oracle can help other raiding options (via, again, disabling defensive structure) is avoided. Thanks for the wall of text but it comes off as pre-emptive whining to me.
I don't see how the oracle can help with breaking a siege considering it's not like Terran build missile turrets with their siege push currently. Cannon rushes happen way to early on in the game for the Oracle to be of any use, and spine/spore crawlers require late game creep spread to be used offensively.
In terms of base raiding, I don't see how the unit can be cost efficient. On average, the oracle will be able to "stun" two defensive structures, as seen in the panel video. So a spore crawler cost 75 minerals and zero gas, where as the oracle is 150 minerals and 200 gas. So right away we see that the Oracle's mineral cost is equal to two spore crawlers. Once you take the high gas cost into account, it becomes clearly visible that the unit is in no way cost efficient. I haven't even mentioned the fact that it also cost food, and has a good chance of being destroyed in the process of the raid.
Also, whining about whining is inappropriate. I also advice you to read this post by Tyler addressing the necessity of feedback to the development process. + Show Spoiler +
On October 28 2011 04:27 Midgetman101 wrote: Hey heres an idea! Why dont you wait for the beta and then make judgements like these? ...
Blizzard wants feedback now. They always want feedback. The reason we don't stay quiet until the beta is because we want the beta to start off in the best state possible.
On November 03 2011 07:34 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On November 03 2011 07:25 Amlitzer wrote: Just bring back the Purifier, remove the "empowering attack" aspect of the unit, and change it's +biological attack to +light instead. Make it require a Twilight Council to build from a warp gate, give it a reasonable cost, and there you go Protss now has their harass unit. The best part is it would require practically zero effort on Blizzard's part seeing as how the unit is already in the game engine.
IIRC at one of the panels, DB said they twiddled with it for a couple months and it just wasn't working out. They must have seen some inherent flaw that isn't obvious to us.
Yes, but that was in reference to the "empowering attack" aspect of the unit. Originally, the unit started off weak and with each kill it would get stronger, kind of like the "ranking" system you find in a lot of C&C games (coincidence... I think not). Just give it a straight up standard attack, like every other unit in the game currently, and that issue is resolved. The unit also had a researchable ability that fired a bolt of psi lightning that jumped between units of the same type. This would be a perfect ability for harassment, and it would also help toss hold off marine and zergling all ins.
Thinking about the oracle more, I think Blizzard could greatly improve the concept of the unit by changing the mineral block ability to a stasis field like ability that only affects worker units. This allows toss to have an effective late game harass unit, which does not kill workers (thus keeping with the original unit concept), and which does not add to the deathball that blizzard is avoiding. Additionally, this can help toss defend against a terran who knows he is behind, and pulls all his worker in attempt to all in or base trade with his opponent.
Wow your idea about the oracle is the exact thing that I came up with too. Plus instead of entomb being just a boring spell that targets stationary minerals, you are targeting moving workers which encourages the opponent to split them and encourages you to hit as many as possible. Adds a ton more excitement and a bit more utility (helping with terran all-ins).
Lets just hope someone at blizzard has a similar idea.
Going with the stasis field for workers only idea, I think it'd be better if instead of stasis it was a black hole/vortex. That way you could stop all the workers from mining gas too... it would also make the workers invincible til they pop back out and wouldn't trigger an alert.
On November 03 2011 07:54 Amlitzer wrote: Thinking about the oracle more, I think Blizzard could greatly improve the concept of the unit by changing the mineral block ability to a stasis field like ability that only affects worker units. This allows toss to have an effective late game harass unit, which does not kill workers (thus keeping with the original unit concept), and which does not add to the deathball that blizzard is avoiding. Additionally, this can help toss defend against a terran who knows he is behind, and pulls all his worker in attempt to all in or base trade with his opponent.
Thats a pretty darn good idea to stabilize stargate tech as an early game option, it would make it quite a bit harder for terran to see your stargate units and not just pull his workers and kill you.
On November 03 2011 07:54 Amlitzer wrote: Thinking about the oracle more, I think Blizzard could greatly improve the concept of the unit by changing the mineral block ability to a stasis field like ability that only affects worker units. This allows toss to have an effective late game harass unit, which does not kill workers (thus keeping with the original unit concept), and which does not add to the deathball that blizzard is avoiding. Additionally, this can help toss defend against a terran who knows he is behind, and pulls all his worker in attempt to all in or base trade with his opponent.
Thats a pretty darn good idea to stabilize stargate tech as an early game option, it would make it quite a bit harder for terran to see your stargate units and not just pull his workers and kill you.
stopping production facilities / uprades can be compared to having more defense, because your opponent has less stuff and/or his timing push comes later. I don't get, oracle has so many different uses and people still not happy, and still talking about its price when that's going to change still many times until HotS.
On November 03 2011 03:59 Big J wrote: Tyler, Destiny, JP, Artosis, Day9, Idra, Incontrol pretty much all said, that the oracle was one of the units that looked the most interesting out of all the new ones...
I'm glad you've brought this up because it shows you don't actually understand the problem. Practically nobody is saying that the Oracle isn't going to be "interesting". The ability to phase out buildings, in particular, could be incredibly powerful with protoss timing attacks. With that it could be an amazing unit and a good addition.
Be so fair and quote my complete post in which I discuss that with kcdc how the oracle might with safely transitioning out of Stargate harass tech. Because what he said was basically: "I can already harass with stargate tech, I just can't stay alive when doing it", while my point was, that the oracle is going to help when one wants to switch from stargateharass to robo or stargateharass to eco. If you want to know how, read the full post...
And yes, I'm not quoting your full post, because it basically says the same thing, a small amount of people is bitching around since the oracle has been revealed: that dustin browder called it a raider unit that is workerfriendly. If he had just said it was a stargate caster, people might finally realize that protoss is already getting the option to turn EACH AND EVERY ARMY THEY HAVE IN A HARASSMENT TOOL WITH MASS RECALL. Right now the new standard opening for HotS seems like it's going to be gassteal into win anyway for protoss, so no reason to whine about the other races, as only Protoss is playable anyway in HotS...
Warpgate all-ins will no longer be all-ins, there will be no reason to ever have your army at your base. Sentrys and Templar will have much higher life spans.
Blink Stalkers will become insane units. Who cares about the Oracle when you can now actually blink into your opponents base, go in far to snipe tech and treat with minor losses. Toss will go from the least mobile race to the most mobile.
The only way I can see them putting this in is making the recall radius tiny/longer delay and nerfing blink cooldown.
Honestly, I would trade every unit Toss is getting for just Mass Recall as they have it now. It changes the game completely.
But I guess with the introduction of the Viper and Dark Swarm/Pull, Toss will need something that gives them a lot more mobility, otherwise they will get steam rolled by Zerg. But against Terran :X?
I don't necessarily agree that a starport based harassment unit is bad. The issue here is to make a stargate opening a viable standard (with possible transitions to more stargate, robo or templar tech). Early scouting info will be gained from oracle instead of observer. Anything above 150 gas is ridiculous though. I don't get blizzards fetish for "capital units". Thors, motherships, the new BCs are so boring...
This was a very well written article however I think that it is important to note that the oracle has different ( not better ) capabilities as a void ray phoenix harass. The oracle is capable of shutting down a production facility and for zerg that means you cannot build anymore of those units. Also the oracle can shut down mineral patches without the enemy players noticing meaning that it is possible to not notice that you haven't been mining from your third for the past 5 minutes. That being said I think that the balance on the Protoss units in particular will be difficult. And keep in mind that they are not balanced now. They won't be until the beta when they are played and the community has the chance to fully utilize them.
On November 03 2011 07:34 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On November 03 2011 07:25 Amlitzer wrote: Just bring back the Purifier, remove the "empowering attack" aspect of the unit, and change it's +biological attack to +light instead. Make it require a Twilight Council to build from a warp gate, give it a reasonable cost, and there you go Protss now has their harass unit. The best part is it would require practically zero effort on Blizzard's part seeing as how the unit is already in the game engine.
IIRC at one of the panels, DB said they twiddled with it for a couple months and it just wasn't working out. They must have seen some inherent flaw that isn't obvious to us.
Yes, but that was in reference to the "empowering attack" aspect of the unit. Originally, the unit started off weak and with each kill it would get stronger, kind of like the "ranking" system you find in a lot of C&C games (coincidence... I think not). Just give it a straight up standard attack, like every other unit in the game currently, and that issue is resolved. The unit also had a researchable ability that fired a bolt of psi lightning that jumped between units of the same type. This would be a perfect ability for harassment, and it would also help toss hold off marine and zergling all ins.
Thinking about the oracle more, I think Blizzard could greatly improve the concept of the unit by changing the mineral block ability to a stasis field like ability that only affects worker units. This allows toss to have an effective late game harass unit, which does not kill workers (thus keeping with the original unit concept), and which does not add to the deathball that blizzard is avoiding. Additionally, this can help toss defend against a terran who knows he is behind, and pulls all his worker in attempt to all in or base trade with his opponent.
Yes, bring it back with tweaks... and this:
Just give it a straight up standard attack, like every other unit in the game currently, and that issue is resolved. The unit also had a researchable ability that fired a bolt of psi lightning that jumped between units of the same type. This would be a perfect ability for harassment, and it would also help toss hold off marine and zergling all ins.
As for stasis... how about just a regular old stasis?
I don't think it's fair to imagine a rush to oracle first strategy to work without using the context of the other options a stargate offers. You probably still want to get out a void ray or some phoenixes first and an oracle does augment them by allowing you to disable spore crawlers and missile turrets. Later on simply having an oracle around will be tremendously useful for mineral harass (easier when bases are more spread out), scouting (for instance, checking when the greater spire will be upgraded using its vision spell), phasing out tech structures, you name it.
Maybe the oracle would be a little bit more interesting if it just had a weak enough attack to take out one or two marines, but really, is that necessary? I think it would be nice, as there would be a bit more synergy between phoenixes and oracles, since no longer do you need the critical mass of 4 phoenixes when you can also add an oracle to the mix, but that all remains to be seen and isn't necessarily the case.
I'm actually really looking forward to at least one dynamic: shutting down the roach warren at the right moment during a timing attack can mean the difference between failure and success. The zerg answer will be to create more tech buildings, but who says you can't shut down all of them as long as you scout well and have more than one oracle? I think it might work and it would really make scouting the zerg incredibly necessary. For me this is one of those cool instances that could actually happen quite often enough to make the unit worth it. Another one is the Viper's "grant vision" ability that is certainly going to be used on a non-trivial unit at one point to win a game. I really like such tools that have a huge amount of applications, some that will be standard and others only in unique cases, because it rewards players with better decision making. I mean, don't you think it's an improvement over stuff like four-gate that's purely about following a standard build order and then just microing better?
On November 03 2011 09:07 willoc wrote: Another thread about this and a huge OP. Yet again the fact that the oracle can be used to help during a seige (via disabling defensive structures) is avoided. Yet again the fact that the oracle can help other raiding options (via, again, disabling defensive structure) is avoided. Thanks for the wall of text but it comes off as pre-emptive whining to me.
Helping on defense is extremely situational at best. It will basically only help if
- there is a baneling bust and you happen to have an oracle at that weird late baneling bust timing... very unlikely - if there is a roach/ling all-in, and you somehow have enough forcefields/cannons to protect everything but a gateway or maybe your forge... because disabling a cyber or pylon during a roach/ling all in is probably suicide. But is it really that useful? It would have been better to have had a voidray out which actually stops the rush. - you happen to have an oracle sitting around when Terran drop is killing your twilight or robo. But the time it takes for that building to come back online is almost as bad as having to rebuild it. Who won that fight?
As for raiding options, sure, super late game when you are near max, it would be nice to have a couple of oracles to disable turrets and spores. But in the midgame, you might as well just build 2 more phoenix and fly around the spores/turrets. It's more efficient, IMO.
On November 03 2011 06:52 Blacklizard wrote: It is hurting my brain so hard that some posters are commenting on phase shift shutting down Zerg buildings. For every Oracle you buy, Zerg can afford another spire, or pool, or roach warren, or Ultralisk cavern. Seriously... whatever the critical building is, Zerg can just build one more as soon as he sees an oracle. Right? The most inconvenient will be a greater spire. But with the oracle's low HP, late game if I were Zerg I'd just build 2 or 3 spores around my expensive buildings, plus your one queen, and that means oracles are shut down or forced to use their energy to turn off spores first.
Obviously phase shift will be not very good against Terran except for possibly upgrades or the starport.
Seriously... it's just a slightly better version of the Overseer's ability which has made a difference in about 1 pro match ever. Gah!!!!
Think of it like this... ghosts are good against HTs because they cost less than the damage they do. Oracles... costing more than 90% of the buildings they can shut down is not great.
Hmmm..
First, maybe you don't need to SHOW your oracle until you want to phase out a building, so that you don't give Zerg time to build their 'critical building'? Showing any harass unit beforehand usually renders them less effective.
Secondly, even IF it is like you say, and IF the Zerg builds 2-3 spores plus duplicates his ENTIRE TECH TREE to avoid units being locked out, seems to me like forcing 2-3 spores per building plus investing in duplicate unneccesary buildings for ONE unit seems like a pretty good investment.
If the Zerg is so frickin ahead that he can afford to build extra buildings plus 2-3 spores per building preemtively, he will have won anyhow, or you should just be able to kill him outright because all that static def + structures leaves him with no army.
Also, "it hurts my brain so hard" that people keep comparing the unit cost with the building cost. It is like assuming you will only use the unit once and then never again. It's like me saying that building 4 infestors for 400/600 to take out a nexus is clearly a bad investment and will never be done, because you can "just build another nexus".
Having SAID that, I totally agree that as a solo raider, perhaps it's a little lackluster, if we define raider as being able to cause _economic_ damage. However, do we have to be so narrow-minded in terms of what constitutes successful raiding? If you got a phoenix fast unit being able to delay and deny tech (and thus timing attacks) for 45 seconds or more, isn't that good?
I truly believe it will be totally kick-ass in combination with other units + timings, especially vs Zerg. Spore + crawler makes your base DT safe? Not anymore...
Vs T it doesn't quite have the same impact, for sure. I still feel it could be damned good though. I dunno, I guess people will have to play around with it more. Can you phase out a bunker with units inside? Planetary Fortress making harassment difficult? No problem - free kills for your zealot drop for 45 seconds, let those SCV's repair that PF all they like, they'll all die anyhow before the army gets there.
Anyway, enough rambling. I really feel though that the ones complaining that it's no good for raiding or just plain no good and to expensive haven't really thought the applications of this unit through. Sure it won't win you the game on it's own, but it definitely does NOT suck, and is by no means only a 'slightly better Overseer'.
No wait, I would never advocate a Zerg building 3 spores per tech building in the mid game, that's insane. I was talking about late game when you have more tech buildings to protect, group them all together near your hatchery as you build them, then surround with 2 or 3 spores plus your default first queen. Very affordable by the time you are talking about greater spire and stuff.
Sure, it does have some potential as a late game assisted harass unit with DTs and such. Absolutely. But is that what Protoss needs?
I would laugh so hard if the oracle became suddenly minerals only.... but something exorbitant... like 650 minerals and 4 supply for an oracle~! I'm pretty sure it just wouldn't work.... but I can tell tons of Protosses would rather lose the minerals than even a speck of gas xPPPP
On November 03 2011 06:52 Blacklizard wrote: It is hurting my brain so hard that some posters are commenting on phase shift shutting down Zerg buildings. For every Oracle you buy, Zerg can afford another spire, or pool, or roach warren, or Ultralisk cavern. Seriously... whatever the critical building is, Zerg can just build one more as soon as he sees an oracle. Right? The most inconvenient will be a greater spire. But with the oracle's low HP, late game if I were Zerg I'd just build 2 or 3 spores around my expensive buildings, plus your one queen, and that means oracles are shut down or forced to use their energy to turn off spores first.
Obviously phase shift will be not very good against Terran except for possibly upgrades or the starport.
Seriously... it's just a slightly better version of the Overseer's ability which has made a difference in about 1 pro match ever. Gah!!!!
Think of it like this... ghosts are good against HTs because they cost less than the damage they do. Oracles... costing more than 90% of the buildings they can shut down is not great.
Hmmm..
First, maybe you don't need to SHOW your oracle until you want to phase out a building, so that you don't give Zerg time to build their 'critical building'? Showing any harass unit beforehand usually renders them less effective.
Secondly, even IF it is like you say, and IF the Zerg builds 2-3 spores plus duplicates his ENTIRE TECH TREE to avoid units being locked out, seems to me like forcing 2-3 spores per building plus investing in duplicate unneccesary buildings for ONE unit seems like a pretty good investment.
If the Zerg is so frickin ahead that he can afford to build extra buildings plus 2-3 spores per building preemtively, he will have won anyhow, or you should just be able to kill him outright because all that static def + structures leaves him with no army.
Also, "it hurts my brain so hard" that people keep comparing the unit cost with the building cost. It is like assuming you will only use the unit once and then never again. It's like me saying that building 4 infestors for 400/600 to take out a nexus is clearly a bad investment and will never be done, because you can "just build another nexus".
Having SAID that, I totally agree that as a solo raider, perhaps it's a little lackluster, if we define raider as being able to cause _economic_ damage. However, do we have to be so narrow-minded in terms of what constitutes successful raiding? If you got a phoenix fast unit being able to delay and deny tech (and thus timing attacks) for 45 seconds or more, isn't that good?
I truly believe it will be totally kick-ass in combination with other units + timings, especially vs Zerg. Spore + crawler makes your base DT safe? Not anymore...
Vs T it doesn't quite have the same impact, for sure. I still feel it could be damned good though. I dunno, I guess people will have to play around with it more. Can you phase out a bunker with units inside? Planetary Fortress making harassment difficult? No problem - free kills for your zealot drop for 45 seconds, let those SCV's repair that PF all they like, they'll all die anyhow before the army gets there.
Anyway, enough rambling. I really feel though that the ones complaining that it's no good for raiding or just plain no good and to expensive haven't really thought the applications of this unit through. Sure it won't win you the game on it's own, but it definitely does NOT suck, and is by no means only a 'slightly better Overseer'.
No wait, I would never advocate a Zerg building 3 spores per tech building in the mid game, that's insane. I was talking about late game when you have more tech buildings to protect, group them all together near your hatchery as you build them, then surround with 2 or 3 spores plus your default first queen. Very affordable by the time you are talking about greater spire and stuff.
Sure, it does have some potential as a late game assisted harass unit with DTs and such. Absolutely. But is that what Protoss needs?
LOL high risk low reward... what would you do if the Protoss went crazy and sent in like 3 oracles and shutdown ALL of your tech? xDDDD
On November 03 2011 06:52 Blacklizard wrote: It is hurting my brain so hard that some posters are commenting on phase shift shutting down Zerg buildings. For every Oracle you buy, Zerg can afford another spire, or pool, or roach warren, or Ultralisk cavern. Seriously... whatever the critical building is, Zerg can just build one more as soon as he sees an oracle. Right? The most inconvenient will be a greater spire. But with the oracle's low HP, late game if I were Zerg I'd just build 2 or 3 spores around my expensive buildings, plus your one queen, and that means oracles are shut down or forced to use their energy to turn off spores first.
Obviously phase shift will be not very good against Terran except for possibly upgrades or the starport.
Seriously... it's just a slightly better version of the Overseer's ability which has made a difference in about 1 pro match ever. Gah!!!!
Think of it like this... ghosts are good against HTs because they cost less than the damage they do. Oracles... costing more than 90% of the buildings they can shut down is not great.
Hmmm..
First, maybe you don't need to SHOW your oracle until you want to phase out a building, so that you don't give Zerg time to build their 'critical building'? Showing any harass unit beforehand usually renders them less effective.
Secondly, even IF it is like you say, and IF the Zerg builds 2-3 spores plus duplicates his ENTIRE TECH TREE to avoid units being locked out, seems to me like forcing 2-3 spores per building plus investing in duplicate unneccesary buildings for ONE unit seems like a pretty good investment.
If the Zerg is so frickin ahead that he can afford to build extra buildings plus 2-3 spores per building preemtively, he will have won anyhow, or you should just be able to kill him outright because all that static def + structures leaves him with no army.
Also, "it hurts my brain so hard" that people keep comparing the unit cost with the building cost. It is like assuming you will only use the unit once and then never again. It's like me saying that building 4 infestors for 400/600 to take out a nexus is clearly a bad investment and will never be done, because you can "just build another nexus".
Having SAID that, I totally agree that as a solo raider, perhaps it's a little lackluster, if we define raider as being able to cause _economic_ damage. However, do we have to be so narrow-minded in terms of what constitutes successful raiding? If you got a phoenix fast unit being able to delay and deny tech (and thus timing attacks) for 45 seconds or more, isn't that good?
I truly believe it will be totally kick-ass in combination with other units + timings, especially vs Zerg. Spore + crawler makes your base DT safe? Not anymore...
Vs T it doesn't quite have the same impact, for sure. I still feel it could be damned good though. I dunno, I guess people will have to play around with it more. Can you phase out a bunker with units inside? Planetary Fortress making harassment difficult? No problem - free kills for your zealot drop for 45 seconds, let those SCV's repair that PF all they like, they'll all die anyhow before the army gets there.
Anyway, enough rambling. I really feel though that the ones complaining that it's no good for raiding or just plain no good and to expensive haven't really thought the applications of this unit through. Sure it won't win you the game on it's own, but it definitely does NOT suck, and is by no means only a 'slightly better Overseer'.
No wait, I would never advocate a Zerg building 3 spores per tech building in the mid game, that's insane. I was talking about late game when you have more tech buildings to protect, group them all together near your hatchery as you build them, then surround with 2 or 3 spores plus your default first queen. Very affordable by the time you are talking about greater spire and stuff.
Sure, it does have some potential as a late game assisted harass unit with DTs and such. Absolutely. But is that what Protoss needs?
There is nothing Protoss "needs" right now. The game is close to balanced, the little bit that is missing to being balanced can be achieved via patches. But the new units and abilities will have such a huge impact, that we absolutly can't forsee the metagame right now, so for anything that the races "need" in HotS, we have to wait for the beta (at least).
The Oracle is near the top of my HotS fears list (right up there with the replicant, Mass Recall on the Nexus, and Arc Shield) because it seems like the sort of unit that breaks the game. Here's why:
The Oracle is extremely fast, making it a terrific scout and fantastic harassment unit. These are GOOD things, and I approve of that. However, it also has Entomb and Phase Shift, which allow 1-2 of these little things to give the Protoss player incredible map control.
Entomb denies mineral harvesting for a long period of time, and gives no in-game alarm. The forces the victim to play very passively, constantly checking their base for those pesky Oracles, which can come darting in at any moment to deny hundreds of minerals from being harvested. The alternative is to spend considerable time and resources into static defense to protect your mineral lines and make it harder for the Oracle to lock down your harvesting, but this has the same effect of forcing the player to play withdrawn and passive for an extended period of time because static defense cuts into your army production and takes time and resources to establish.
Even if you can manage to keep the Oracle away from your mineral lines, it also has Phase Shift, which can temporarily remove key tech from the game for extended periods of time. This increases the map control that a small number of Oracles provide, because players will be forced to protect their key tech structures (spires, roach warrens, infestation pits, factories, starports, etc). Even worse than that, this allows the Protoss player to literally force a player into certain unit combinations. Don't want you Zerg opponent to make hydras against your largely air army? No problem. Don't want to see warhounds or tanks against your stalker heavy force? No problem. Don't want to ever worry about EMP or ghosts? No problem. Need to stop viking production so that your colossi can't be touched at all? No problem!
Add onto Phase shift the ability to negate static defense when pushing into someone's base, and you have possibly the most game-breaking, over-powered little unit despite the fact that it has no attack whatsoever.
My hopes for this unit? Phase shift turned into what Contaminate used to be. Entomb given an in-game alarm, and barriers given very little health (like 50-60). MAYBE slightly decreased movement speed on the Oracle so players have a little more time to react when they see one of these darting into their base to deny harvesting.
I think this unit CAN be very interesting and fun to play with/against, but not in it's currently advertised form.
I think enforcing a short casting range for some of its spells makes it less one-sided. Otherwise you just have a super-speedy oracle that can't be defended against very well. Requiring the oracle to risk itself a little bit when attacking allows for more skilled players, both on the offensive and defensive side, to get out more of the unit.
On November 04 2011 02:44 Grumbels wrote: I think enforcing a short casting range for some of its spells makes it less one-sided. Otherwise you just have a super-speedy oracle that can't be defended against very well. Requiring the oracle to risk itself a little bit when attacking allows for more skilled players, both on the offensive and defensive side, to get out more of the unit.
This is one of the design problems; the harass either needs to be weak or defendable, and neither is a good solution.
On November 04 2011 00:27 SpaceYeti wrote: The Oracle is near the top of my HotS fears list (right up there with the replicant, Mass Recall on the Nexus, and Arc Shield) because it seems like the sort of unit that breaks the game. Here's why:
The Oracle is extremely fast, making it a terrific scout and fantastic harassment unit. These are GOOD things, and I approve of that. However, it also has Entomb and Phase Shift, which allow 1-2 of these little things to give the Protoss player incredible map control.
Entomb denies mineral harvesting for a long period of time, and gives no in-game alarm. The forces the victim to play very passively, constantly checking their base for those pesky Oracles, which can come darting in at any moment to deny hundreds of minerals from being harvested. The alternative is to spend considerable time and resources into static defense to protect your mineral lines and make it harder for the Oracle to lock down your harvesting, but this has the same effect of forcing the player to play withdrawn and passive for an extended period of time because static defense cuts into your army production and takes time and resources to establish.
Even if you can manage to keep the Oracle away from your mineral lines, it also has Phase Shift, which can temporarily remove key tech from the game for extended periods of time. This increases the map control that a small number of Oracles provide, because players will be forced to protect their key tech structures (spires, roach warrens, infestation pits, factories, starports, etc). Even worse than that, this allows the Protoss player to literally force a player into certain unit combinations. Don't want you Zerg opponent to make hydras against your largely air army? No problem. Don't want to see warhounds or tanks against your stalker heavy force? No problem. Don't want to ever worry about EMP or ghosts? No problem. Need to stop viking production so that your colossi can't be touched at all? No problem!
Add onto Phase shift the ability to negate static defense when pushing into someone's base, and you have possibly the most game-breaking, over-powered little unit despite the fact that it has no attack whatsoever.
My hopes for this unit? Phase shift turned into what Contaminate used to be. Entomb given an in-game alarm, and barriers given very little health (like 50-60). MAYBE slightly decreased movement speed on the Oracle so players have a little more time to react when they see one of these darting into their base to deny harvesting.
I think this unit CAN be very interesting and fun to play with/against, but not in it's currently advertised form.
Entomb should not be given an alarm. Forces multitasking, its on your minimap. It's like DTs in broodwar, DT's never indicated that you were getting attacked yet people managed to do fine.
Your way over reacting also. tanks? well usually most races have one than one production facility. Phase shift in its current form could be too powerful versus zerg though, depends on its time and when you can get oracle out. You also have to acknowledge that it is an investment to get oracles, it isn't free, so its not like, herp derp stop vikings. It's more like, hey, stop one round of vikings. Entomb would be a waste if its health was too low. Perhaps low health but high armor(so that workers couldn't fuck with it for free). There is nothing wrong with a really powerful unit, this really powerful unit also forces multi-tasking from both players, and your asking its most multitask dependent ability(entomb) to be weakened? Vikings would also be amazing at driving these things off, any kind of air unit, or even the new warhound. This is one of my favorite new units, and its idea is solid, but what your asking is that you make it damn near useless, and not worth its cost and getting a starport.
Does entomb really not give an "alarm" though? I might be wrong, but once you cast entomb on the minerals the workers will stop mining and show up on the UI as inactive. So, as long as you pay attention to your idle worker count you should be able to react in time. Also, paying attention to your minimap is one of the necessary skills of a pro player, so they should be able to notice the blips in front of their mineral line and react accordingly.
I don't think it will. Workers still attempt to move from patch to patch in the videos. It might be different if all the crystals are locked down, but we have no evidence they will be idle then. I think it's safe to assume they won't be, though, since at lower leagues the only adjustment you need to make is to only entomb seven out of eight patches and you still won't get the alarm. I don't think it's too much of a problem however, oracles aren't invisible and will show up on your minimap.
Ok, so personnally I believe the oracle is simply awful because it's harrass effect isnt permanent. However, I believe that blocking the mineral fields are an interesting feature. In order to correct that issue, I believe they should take 1 very interesting change:
-they should simply make the mineral field blocking permanent but destructible (with a very minimal health). Something close to 100 health or 200 health would be interesting. This way, it would be easier for protoss to harrass and it would really benefit the harrass concept.
Lets look at the purpose of a harrass: -Kill workers or cripple economy -Make damage on the long term -Kill units if possible -Slow the teching -The most important one (oblige the enemy to move his units around to defend the harrass). Just like mutas or terran drops.
Therefore, giving the mineral field blocking ability a permanent ability with 200 health would oblige the ennemies to move their units around to ''kill'' these power field. Which would pretty much fill all the purpose of a harrass I stated before.
Also, the protoss would be able to slow the super macro style of zergs since we could simply block most of the map mineral field and then it would give us back map vision/presence (a bit like creep tumor does) and would also oblige zerg to make units and move them around to expo (just like protoss and terrans!).
Perhaps a solution to the issue that the oracle isn`t able to assist a main army:
Give it spell, one which buffs friendly units, which actively aids other combat units long after the raiding option has been denied or which gives a type of defender`s advantage.
If you need to balance it, make the buff either a research option or require plenty of energy to use (so you can`t use it immediately).
Yes, I know protoss has plenty of spells already which may or may not fill this roll (forcefield and guardian shield come to mind).
Perhaps a shield battery type functionality? Give it a small AoE Healing effect where it replenishes shields over time. This way you can use it to both harass and as part of a push or defense scenerio. Or give it a large AoE field with a set up time (sort of the opposite of the shredder) so that suddenly there is a positional element to it (and one which is easy to use in conjunction with protoss' other spells).
Suddenly we have use for a unit which doesn't attack...
As already in your former post about the oracle, you are perfectly right about everything you wrote kcdc. I really hope Blizzard realises that the current unit design of the oracle doesn't fullfill the role of a unit that protoss is missing so much.
I really feel that you cannot really judge how good or not good a unit will be until it has had some time in the game with everyone playing. Once you've actually played the game and determined that you think the oracle is useless I view your whole argument as just guesses thAt have as good a chance of being wrong as they do being right.
In light of the beta starting, I thought it might make sense to review my design critiques from Blizz first proposed to concept of the oracle. A lot of these criticisms are starting to become frequent complaints now.
So at first I felt that my opening would be even stronger(and its sickly strong as it is right now)
However, after testing incorporating the oracle in many different ways. To me it is always more worth building phoenix or void rays against zerg. Especially the extreme high gas cost makes it far to useless.
I personally would love to see more gateway units, but becuase of warp tech it probably would be to strong.
As you mention a stable harras unit from the robotic is what protoss should get.
Otherwise it would be a very interesting if protoss could get a good harasser from gates as it could be warped in with prism or by close pylons. If it could be balanced, I believe that would be the most entertaining gameplay option for a new unit.
On September 10 2012 06:23 Myrmonden wrote: Otherwise it would be a very interesting if protoss could get a good harasser from gates as it could be warped in with prism or by close pylons. If it could be balanced, I believe that would be the most entertaining gameplay option for a new unit.
What if they made a unit that 1 shotted workers but had super low hitpoints that you could warp in from a warp prsim. Maybe they could make them permanently cloaked or something. Yea that sounds like a good unit.
On September 10 2012 06:23 Myrmonden wrote: Otherwise it would be a very interesting if protoss could get a good harasser from gates as it could be warped in with prism or by close pylons. If it could be balanced, I believe that would be the most entertaining gameplay option for a new unit.
What if they made a unit that 1 shotted workers but had super low hitpoints that you could warp in from a warp prsim. Maybe they could make them permanently cloaked or something. Yea that sounds like a good unit.
On September 10 2012 06:23 Myrmonden wrote: Otherwise it would be a very interesting if protoss could get a good harasser from gates as it could be warped in with prism or by close pylons. If it could be balanced, I believe that would be the most entertaining gameplay option for a new unit.
What if they made a unit that 1 shotted workers but had super low hitpoints that you could warp in from a warp prsim. Maybe they could make them permanently cloaked or something. Yea that sounds like a good unit.
Haha you guys are funny. But the DT is just another example of how limited protoss harass is. You have to make an entire building that costs 250 gas and has no abilities except to proclaim to the world that you can make invisible things. The point is that yes, protoss has harass options, but most of them cost huge amounts of gas, and the new units are more of the same.
Crank was using Preordain on Lair in PvZ to monitor Hive timings.
Also the detection makes sky toss more viable although to be honest most games I watched it's toss getting stomped by Swarm Host or Warhounds lol.
I like the Oracle.
That is a cool tactic! But you need every tech tree to make it work, so it won't happen until late game. Plus that squad is anything but cheap, so you are risking a lot.
It would be great if the protoss could have a gateway harassment option. I feel it could easily be balanced by making it build at a reasonable quick time out of gateways but warpgates actually incures a longer cooldown. Protoss needs some way to harass early game without a heavy commital to one tech or another like it currently is. I honestly don't think the answer is to create reaper or helion copycat but something more along those lines. A cheap unit that if you loose it its not the end of the game. I would love to be able to FFE and then at like 6 minutes be harassing lighty while going into say a 4 gate +1 timing at 8 minutes.
Crank was using Preordain on Lair in PvZ to monitor Hive timings.
Also the detection makes sky toss more viable although to be honest most games I watched it's toss getting stomped by Swarm Host or Warhounds lol.
I like the Oracle.
That is a cool tactic! But you need every tech tree to make it work, so it won't happen until late game. Plus that squad is anything but cheap, so you are risking a lot.
Yeah I think they should make it like 100/150 not 150/200.
I think blizzard approaches the oracle incorrectly. It would be better to give the oracle abilities to make existing harass better rather than gimmicky block minerals crap. I've posted the idea in two other threads about the oracle so I feel like a broken record, but phase shift that only affects static defense would be cool and make Phoenix harass better, even DT harass less risky
How about a unit from the gateway like the one they had in WoL beta, which becomes stronger after it kills more units. It comes from the gateway and it's really microable (I'm tired don't make me think of how exactly it would require much micro) to make it effective but when it gets rolling sniping important and/or cheap targets it becomes stronger. If you drop it via warp prism it would actually require some units there before hand or static defenses much like Terran drops. It would require at least twilight or even templar tech or something.
Edit: I guess I'm just venting from the disappointment that HotS beta has caused
EPT
(playing super non-standard since 1995).
<3
