HotS: Dev's comment about Tassadar - Page 6
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deadjawa
United States179 Posts
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BasilPesto
Australia624 Posts
On June 11 2011 07:50 0c3LoT wrote: I think one of the reasons WoL's story was so garbage compared to SC1/BW was because they got rid of the mission briefings where a lot of plot & character development happened. That's a pretty good point. While my memory of it is shaky, I remember being able to read a lot into Raynor and Mengsk through their voices and tones alone. On June 13 2011 09:10 deadjawa wrote: Did anyone else think it is a little bit strange that tassadar threw his ship (full of templar energies) into the overmind and all of the sudden a mysterious Protoss-Zerg hybrid started appearing? I'm just saying... It seems a little obvious to me that tassadar is the hybrid, or at least plays a very big role in it's creation. Shh, don't give the Blizzard story writers free ideas. | ||
Williowa
129 Posts
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wolfe
United States761 Posts
On June 03 2011 01:08 DuneBug wrote: Campaign was awesome but the plot is really lacking and annoying. I found myself wanting to skip most of the cutscenes. Felt too much like warcraft 3. Dark voice and being overrun by this new race of supercreatures from the void? wtf that's like the same damn plot. Not to mention Jim Raynor being all mopey about his girlfriend, I don't recall any romantic hints in Brood War and Kerrigan had long been zerg'd by that point. So it seems like that also was pulled out of thin air. Speaking of cutscenes why weren't there any cool ones. The only cool scene was zeratul/kerrigan. I remember SC1 had cutscenes of terran getting zerg'd. One had dragoons being warped in by arbiters and jacking a terran base, that stuff still gives me chills because it's so cool. That one cutscene where Fenix is getting overrun and his psi blades start to fail? $$$ (there's 4 parts) Yeah, basically that. The story needs to be more... gritty and well... frankly... better written. I haven't lost hope yet. If you've been following the SC2 books and comics there are plenty of examples of darker tales and at times excellent story telling. | ||
Warble
137 Posts
On June 02 2011 03:25 emc wrote: I'm pretty sure he is dead, he's just like obiwan, and can appear in visions an stuff. Like, they can revive zealots into dragoons, so why can't a high templar have a spirit form and interact with others? I was going to post just this. The lore in BW was that dragoons were piloted by the souls of dead zealots. It seems that death isn't really a big deal for the protoss. | ||
SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
-Zeratul, sounding more corny than ever. If death wasn't a big deal, why would Zeratul come out with that? | ||
Tonybarbosa
Australia38 Posts
But it would be nice if somebody contributing to the discussion would read it since I like talking about this topic ^_^ tl;dr at the bottom _______________________________________ + Show Spoiler + I don't know about you guys, but when it comes to Sc2 lore, I feel that when it comes to Tassadar we are at a point which is relatively untouched. If Tassadar was one of the first Protoss to combine the powers of both the high and the dark templar, then doesn't it make sense that something could happen which is completely unexpected in regards to his death? Somebody mentioned earlier that because protoss normally become one with the Khala (or something like this) when they die, and because Tassadar's death was him giving up his chance to do so - that this is what makes Tassadar's sacrifice so important and moving. Said person said also that to bring Tassadar back from this kind of sacrifice is like a 'slap in the face' the the Khalai Protoss. Now, I'm no lore hero, but it seems to me that all of these Protoss associated with the Khala have no links to the Dark Templar, who forsook the Khala, and that this division between normal Protoss and the Dark Templar is the primary, most central division that exists within Protoss society. If you think about it like that, then it's not such a huge step to then say that Tassadar, the Protoss who was able to transcend both the primary physical difference between the High and Dark Templar Castes (that is, to gain mastery of both sides of the fence, which apparently stem from either being part of the Khala or not), and transcend the primary societal difference that splits apart an entire highly evolved, highly philosophical race, (sorry for all the commas, it's convoluted), Tassadar is basically the Protoss who transcended Protoss differences. Does it not seem also possible that Tassadar could then achieve a higher existence, higher than what either the High Templar (normal protoss) or Dark Templar separated could have achieved? I don't know, it's not a crazy stretch. To me though, it still feels a bit lacking. But I don't think that this is because of a weakness in the story points or the lore or some such, I think that the weakness lies in the tool they used to tell us something that we didn't know already. In fantasy or sci-fi storytelling, one of the big problems that can easily crop up is a problem of the audience not knowing enough about what you are telling. I expressed that akwardly, but in longhand what I mean is. . . In sci-fi, and in fantasy stories, what makes them both sci-fi and fantasy is that the storytellers alter something fundamental about the setting of the story. I.e. Magic is possible, or Telepathy is possible, or we have technology so far ahead it seems like magic (etc).+ Show Spoiler + So when you have things like the above which fundamentally alter the way that the world works, there is a big danger of going too far with the changes, and losing the audience because it seems gratuitous (this might garner a lot of hate, but i'm looking at you 'flames of emotion Natsu (Fairy Tail)'). Basically, the resolution for the story is deus ex machina esque, i.e. if Tassadar can come back and is transcended, why wont he just wtfpwn all the baddies for us? Or, more solidly, goddamn you stupid ascended beings in stargate, you suck and have no passion ![]() I left this in spoilers also because it's not directly to do with my argument, unless you are interested in deconstructing my thinking. So what I am getting at saying is, the problem for me isn't that it was cheap to bring back Tassadar, rather that it seems cheap because they are using an as yet unexplained lore-based tool to do so. High and Dark Templar, and their unification of all their junk is as yet unexplored, Tassadar led the way and died as a figurehead for a new way of thinking in Protoss society. He knew things that no Protoss knew, and his death (assuming thinks like normally Khalai Protoss become one with the khala) ought to similarly transcend the things which he transcended, otherwise his transcendance of all that junk was flawed, fundamentally, because Protoss normally transcend life in some way when they die, so if Tassadar the Transcendant Protoss (^^) didn't manage to transcend life in some way, then what has he transcended? Now, I don't honestly imagine that I've managed to sway anyone with this, there's probably some key lore point from chapter five of book seven in the appendix of a book about warcraft one, in a preview of the story about starcraft hidden in hindi script that I've missed, but I don't mind. _____________________________________________ tl;dr ... Tassadar's death involves unexplored mechanics of the starcraft lore and world Thus, his 'revival' or whatever it winds up being isn't all that solid if you know both bw and sc2 stories All of what I've said aside, it could just as easily be a trick by The Fallen One or something like this, because like that other guy said, Dark Templar are not linked to the Khalai which could mean Zeratul is liable to be tricked. That and I don't particularly like the voice acting. They should do it with Russians for the Terrans, since they are often badass enough to be Russians anyway, and sub in English. I wrote this post entirely because I could just hear people crying for my utterly important opinion. Yep. ^_^ I keep thinking of more stuff. damnit. + Show Spoiler + Also, think about it, Zerg are perfection of form (right?) and Protoss are perfection of essence (i think), anyway it's something along those lines. However, Protoss which are supposed to be perfection of essence are though united, are still split in two in a big way. Perfection of essence to me basically means 'soul', so if I'm right about what that means, then from soul to what Tassadar is in Sc2 isn't that big a deal, because perfect of essence implies afterlife in some form if it means something like soul. So, Tassadar the Unifier is one of the only Protoss to achieve perfection within his race. The Zerg, which are implicitly unified, have no such problems of division (when led by the Overmind, which apparently occupies the same space as Tassadar anyway). What's the difference between essence and form? I say soul because if it weren't something outside of the physical, then it would be hard to nail down to precise difference between those two concepts, which is why I jumped to soul. | ||
Euronyme
Sweden3804 Posts
On June 02 2011 01:11 Chill wrote: I've given up on the Starcraft story. I enjoy playing the single player but I just don't believe in the storyline anymore. Did you ever actually Believe in the storyline? I'm more or less on the same page though I guess. I don't really care all too much about the lore. I'm more interested in the gameplay of the campaign. I love 'hero style' games, such as (spoilers) the Nova and Tosh ones in SC2, and I really dislike the timelimit games, such as the banshee one, and the jungle gas stuff. I wanna chill and be tricky in my campaign games ^^ | ||
NastyMarine
United States1252 Posts
What we have learned from WoL is that the Xel' Naga used both Protoss' and Zerg's birth as a start-up to their reincarnation life cycle as they had lived out their predicted life span. The Overmind had a predetermined fate - to merge the Protoss and Zerg races to complete the cycle of the Xel' Naga. Whats corrupting the cycle is the Dark Voice's involvement in: 1) Escaping imprisonment - This is further explained in the books. 2) Infiltrating SC personas - Also explained in the games and books. 3) Perverting the Cycle - Explained in Zeratul's SC: BW secret mission and WoL. In some aspects you can say that Overmind is to the Zerg what Tassadar should be for Protoss - a focal spiritual point for the race to be commanded by. The Overmind unified the broods of the swarm and Tassadar, by his sacrifice, unified two tribes (DT and HT) that would not even bother intersecting without his involvement/death. It is still unclear however, if the Dark Voice is suspect in foul play in terms of projecting images onto Zeratul during his Tendril vision's from the Overmind's corpse. We still have no clue how far the Dark Voice's influence spreads. So to say you are fed up with the plot-holes is ridiculous. There is still far more to cover than one can realize. | ||
NastyMarine
United States1252 Posts
Raynor's Raiders' involvement most likely further warped the cycle and probably wasn't foreseen by the Xel' Naga. If the Protoss were to fight the Zerg alone in the first game, they would have not succeeded (given the Protoss' wary statement's during the final push of the first game: "Raynor, we will need all the help we can get" dialogue). | ||
NastyMarine
United States1252 Posts
On June 14 2011 02:29 SeaSwift wrote: "But... you died!" -Zeratul, sounding more corny than ever. If death wasn't a big deal, why would Zeratul come out with that? I'd determine from that statement that Zeratul believed that Tassadar had to use his whole being and Templar energies to completely remove himself from the physical word - actual death for a Protoss' mind, body, and soul. | ||
Ownos
United States2147 Posts
On June 01 2011 14:34 OptimusYale wrote: maybe he's like yoda in Starwars, he's just part of the void. I would've accepted a Psi Ghost explanation. That Tassadar has become more powerful than we can imagine. But the whole "I've never tasted death blah blah become something more" just begs more questions. I will just pretend he's a ghost that comes and goes to give useful advice to the living. Like Obi Wan or Casper. | ||
Ownos
United States2147 Posts
On June 11 2011 07:39 0c3LoT wrote: I facepalmed when I saw this in the write-up. Everything made sense after that though - that MUST be why the SC2 WoL plot was complete garbage. There was a point when I actually gave Blizzard credit for their storytelling abilities (SC1/BW/WC3/TFT). The only reason I played the singleplayer was to see how the plot developed; instead I felt forced to play through gimmicky campaign maps in order to advance a horrible story. Or lack thereof. A lot of missions felt awfully pointless. On June 13 2011 02:54 Shebuha wrote: Agreed... "herpderp, the Zerg aren't evil, they are controlled by something evil. They just happen to be horribly evil looking!" "BTW we brought Tassadar back from the dead for a 2 minute cutscene for uguys so u cood seehim again." I didn't play WoL campaign for a friggen Disney happy ending where Kerrigan becomes human again. I wanted SciFi political backstabbing damnit! lol This is what I don't understand with people's perception of the zerg as evil. To me, the zerg are not evil or good. To me, the zerg are like a pest chewing up your crops. Except to the zerg, WE are the pest treading on their territory; they are like a pack of wolves. So to me, Blizzard changing that the Overmind was manipulated/corrupted is a cheap excuse for why the zerg did all those "evil" things. Like they did with the Orcs and Undead. Very George Lucas-y. Awww in my old age I think Han shooting first seems too "evil" let's soften him up. -_- Han shooting first isn't evil or cutthroat or whatever. It's just smart. :-\ | ||
BeauTaplin
Australia6 Posts
of Tassadar then no one would have a problem with it. I feel like they let such a turn of events down by using a simple cut scene, there's just not much you can do with one. Separately I'm o.k. with simple plot devices as long as the lore is complicated & the characters are interesting (which I feel is the case in sc) | ||
ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On June 15 2011 05:17 NastyMarine wrote: Zeratul, in my opinion, when learning from the Overmind's Tendrils' he was able to cross with what the Overmind could absorb from Tassadar's High Templar energy upon his sacrifice. When Zasz was killed by Zeratul in the first campaign (SC1) he was able to connect with the Dark Templar and learn many a secrets hidden from his consciousness. What we have learned from WoL is that the Xel' Naga used both Protoss' and Zerg's birth as a start-up to their reincarnation life cycle as they had lived out their predicted life span. The Overmind had a predetermined fate - to merge the Protoss and Zerg races to complete the cycle of the Xel' Naga. Whats corrupting the cycle is the Dark Voice's involvement in: 1) Escaping imprisonment - This is further explained in the books. 2) Infiltrating SC personas - Also explained in the games and books. 3) Perverting the Cycle - Explained in Zeratul's SC: BW secret mission and WoL. In some aspects you can say that Overmind is to the Zerg what Tassadar should be for Protoss - a focal spiritual point for the race to be commanded by. The Overmind unified the broods of the swarm and Tassadar, by his sacrifice, unified two tribes (DT and HT) that would not even bother intersecting without his involvement/death. It is still unclear however, if the Dark Voice is suspect in foul play in terms of projecting images onto Zeratul during his Tendril vision's from the Overmind's corpse. We still have no clue how far the Dark Voice's influence spreads. So to say you are fed up with the plot-holes is ridiculous. There is still far more to cover than one can realize. Blizzard, please hire this man to write all your lore from now on. | ||
Ravencruiser
Canada519 Posts
Guy was weak as fuck compared to the likes of Zeratul, slow as a high templar + low dps + weak specials. | ||
ghostunit
61 Posts
How about coming up with something NEW (and that doesn't suck) | ||
TedJustice
Canada1324 Posts
There are some things you just can't tell your players. | ||
Probe1
United States17920 Posts
But chill got it right. After reading every book possible in the year waiting for WoL then... playing.. the campaign.... The lore is reprehensibly bad. Mengsk goes from a master manipulator to some bumbling mayor, Jim Raynor has (hair) become a superhero, Kerrigan goes from the most powerful force in the Sector to a herp derp can't catch a break, Tassadar (Then a skeleton pops out! Boo!) is a story for another time and the overmind just wanted a hug but the big bad dark voice made him do it. Give me a fucking break. What happened to that marine staring up at the last ship off that rock before being torn to shreds by zerglings? Where did classic cutscenes like Thank god for nuclear fusion go? Did Blizzard have an aneurysm and think it has to convince us to like characters instead of just writing a good story and leaving it at that? Damnit guys I loved sc1/bw's story. I replayed the campaigns DOZENS of times. (Close to 100). All because that badass story just kept making me want to replay it. Blizzard I am disappointed. Sorry guys, I'm actually a little drunk and I've wanted to get this off my chest ever since beating the campaign 14 hours after the preloaded download was unlocked (11pm, night of release). WHY THE HELL WAS CADE AT THAT MENGSK INTERVIEW? HE WAS ON THE HYPERION AT THE SAME TIME. I'll go now. | ||
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