First I want to say that I'm not usually a big lore guy but I do like a good storyline.
For a while now, Tassadar and Zeratul have been my favorite characters in Starcraft (alongside Mengsk, which would be a red light according to many psychologists) and while a few things worry me from the preview of SC2's first expansion, this is my biggest concern (seeing how we know very little about multiplayer anyway)
Q: Why didn't you kill off Tassadar, and why did he come out of nowhere?
A: Are you talking about in broodwar, or are you talking about why they did it in WoL? We're not sure about the original game - for that particular moment in WoL we were expressing a pretty radical concept to Zera'tul; the fact that the overmind was not what he thought that it was, and we needed someone that he would really believe, someone that he would buy into almost immediately - we didn't have a cutscene or a ton of time to get it across, and it was believable to us that he could still be out there in one form or other. The character need to immediately allow Zera'tul to believe and understand what was going on, without a lot of backtalk.
I was fairly convinced that Tassadar was dead. Very dead. Now it turns out he kind of isn't(???) When I saw it in WoL, I was actually pretty happy - I figured they'd find a good way to explain why he appeared to Zeratul. Maybe we'd see the single most awesome Protoss shank some zergs in the face again!
Now it's looking like it was a cheap plot device they threw together. Maybe the dev didn't express himself properly. They may have a good follow up to it, but to me it looks like they'll probably just wing it and throw some garbage together to "make it fit" as well as they can. That's what they've been doing with WoW, after all.
Hopefully they don't completely ignore that it happened... I don't think they would - guess I'm pretty pessimistic.
On June 01 2011 13:42 Arterial wrote: I, like many others, was like "bleh -.-" when Tassadar appeared.
His death in BW was powerful and interesting, reviving him is a real shame.
I'm hoping there's more behind the scene stuff going on than WOL puts on.
You should read the books: Queen of Blades and the Dark Templar book series. There it is essentially revealed that through combining the skills of a High Templar and a Dark Templar, Tassadar somehow managed to reach another level of existence (the same thing happened to or was done by Adun according to Zeratul's suspicions).
I REALLY wanted to see fenix again. I hope they make a reference to him in the SC2 campaign(s). I wouldn't be exactly happy if he was suddenly alive....again...well maybe if they introduce him via epic plot twist.
The actual answer from the live Q&A is slightly different compared the one written in the write-up.
They hint that Tassadar's appearance is purposely left vague, whether it is actually reality or just a vision or something. Indeed, it really seems that Tassadar's reappearance was just a quick-fix plot device for the Protoss mini-campaign, which contained an unusually high density of important plot points compared to the rest of the Terran campaign.
Now that Tassadar's ghost is thrown out into the canon, I don't think Blizzard can do anything about it without cheapening anything. If they ignore it as just a vision, it cheapens it as a simple plot device. If they try to elaborately explain his appearance later on in the expansions and possibly have him making more appearances, then it really cheapens the impact of Tassadar's sacrifice in SC1.
Whatever they plan to do with him, they need to get the original voice actor back on him. I cringed when I listened to the "new" Tassadar. He was easily my favorite character from SC1
If Tassadar really was just a vision to Zeratul, then yes, that would be kinda cheap. But if what Tassadar essentially said about his immortality and transcendence is going to be the direction Blizz really wants to take it, then that doesn't cheapen his sacrifice in SC1 at all.
Think of it like this; Tassadar really did sacrifice himself. He (most likely) didn't know he was going to transcend into a higher form on impact, he (most likely) thought he was going to die. He (most likely) really was giving his life in a final heroic effort to end the Overmind. So when he opens his eyes and realizes that he's not dead, that he's transcended mortality, he's like, "Oh, cool story, bro. Let's check out this whole immortality/transcendence business."
If Blizz brought Tassadar back to fight super saiyan-style, *that* would cheapen the story. Don't let the adolescent "awesome" factor get in the way of good storytelling. Tassadar's transcendence allows for the idea that there are far greater and more wonderous things in the universe and beyond (beyond the universe, beyond this existence, etc) than even the Protoss had imagined, and that what's going on in the Korpulu sector is small potatoes in the grand scheme of things.
If Blizz played their cards right, somewhere in HotS or Legacy of the Void, there'd be a brief cameo by Tassadar where he gives Raynor, Kerrigan, and Zeratul a quick glimpse of The Big Picture and of things that, even if The Fallen One succeeds, won't be touched by darkness. And then Tassadar takes off, leaving our heroes with a glimmer of hope and peace of mind as they head out for the last big fight with the Hybrids.
Btw, this is the kind of thing that Tolkien used in Return of the King, and if it worked for Tolkien...
If Tassadar really was just a vision to Zeratul, then yes, that would be kinda cheap. But if what Tassadar essentially said about his immortality and transcendence is going to be the direction Blizz really wants to take it, then that doesn't cheapen his sacrifice in SC1 at all.
Think of it like this; Tassadar really did sacrifice himself. He (most likely) didn't know he was going to transcend into a higher form on impact, he (most likely) thought he was going to die. He (most likely) really was giving his life in a final heroic effort to end the Overmind. So when he opens his eyes and realizes that he's not dead, that he's transcended mortality, he's like, "Oh, cool story, bro. Let's check out this whole immortality/transcendence business."
I don't agree. Most characters, from Raynor to Artanis, are ready to die for a cause if they have to. The unnamed protoss commanders who sacrificed themselves to lure Kerrigan's forces out of position while Zeratul killed Zasz are more heroic to me, because they are soldiers who did die. Tassadar is a soldier who, transcended or not, survived. Besides, Tassadar sacrificed himself to destroy the most terrible enemy of the Sector. Now we're told that the Overmind was only a puppet (and an unwilling one) in the hands of The Darkest Voice. If Tassadar sacrificed only his body and not his life, and that the enemy he destroyed was not the mastermind behind the story, then the final scene of the original game loses practically all the strength it had.
As far as I'm concerned, I'll be happy if Blizzard just re-retcons the concept of Tassadar being brought or ignore it altogether. Sure, it would weaken the prophecy/vision/DOOOOOOOM™ part of the plot, but in my humble opinion, all the more reason to do it. This entire plot line, including but not limited to Tassadar's survival, is a succession cheap plot devices. It should never have existed, least of all retcon the original storyline.
Man Starcraft is turning into star wars. I'm not happy about all these new developments in the plot at all. SC2 and SC1/BW feels so unrelated at this point
On June 01 2011 20:50 fuzzy_panda wrote: Man Starcraft is turning into star wars. I'm not happy about all these new developments in the plot at all. SC2 and SC1/BW feels so unrelated at this point
Your entitled to your own opinion, but why is everyone so negative about it? The gameplay of SC2 single player was definitely an improvement over BW or SC1 and we know they can do a good storyline. As I said in another thread, why not wait until after HotS is out before bitching about it?
On June 01 2011 17:44 Mangea wrote: If Tassadar really was just a vision to Zeratul, then yes, that would be kinda cheap. But if what Tassadar essentially said about his immortality and transcendence is going to be the direction Blizz really wants to take it, then that doesn't cheapen his sacrifice in SC1 at all.
Think of it like this; Tassadar really did sacrifice himself. He (most likely) didn't know he was going to transcend into a higher form on impact, he (most likely) thought he was going to die. He (most likely) really was giving his life in a final heroic effort to end the Overmind. So when he opens his eyes and realizes that he's not dead, that he's transcended mortality, he's like, "Oh, cool story, bro. Let's check out this whole immortality/transcendence business."
If Blizz brought Tassadar back to fight super saiyan-style, *that* would cheapen the story. Don't let the adolescent "awesome" factor get in the way of good storytelling. Tassadar's transcendence allows for the idea that there are far greater and more wonderous things in the universe and beyond (beyond the universe, beyond this existence, etc) than even the Protoss had imagined, and that what's going on in the Korpulu sector is small potatoes in the grand scheme of things.
If Blizz played their cards right, somewhere in HotS or Legacy of the Void, there'd be a brief cameo by Tassadar where he gives Raynor, Kerrigan, and Zeratul a quick glimpse of The Big Picture and of things that, even if The Fallen One succeeds, won't be touched by darkness. And then Tassadar takes off, leaving our heroes with a glimmer of hope and peace of mind as they head out for the last big fight with the Hybrids.
Btw, this is the kind of thing that Tolkien used in Return of the King, and if it worked for Tolkien...
On June 01 2011 20:50 fuzzy_panda wrote: Man Starcraft is turning into star wars. I'm not happy about all these new developments in the plot at all. SC2 and SC1/BW feels so unrelated at this point
Your entitled to your own opinion, but why is everyone so negative about it? The gameplay of SC2 single player was definitely an improvement over BW or SC1 and we know they can do a good storyline. As I said in another thread, why not wait until after HotS is out before bitching about it?
if he's comparing the two, there is one guy who comes back stronger and is evil and has clone bodies( which he can take over ) after falling down some reactor...
I never played Brood War so I do not know who Tassadar is but I was wholly disappointed by the amount of laser guns he was sporting when I saw him in WoL. I mean, he is not even invisible or anything, what is cool about that?
I definitely agree it would be lame if Tassadar was brought back to life, but I disagree with those of you thinking that it makes Tassadar's sacrifice any less important or meaningful. I think it's great storytelling. They triumph over seemingly impossible odds, but it's not over. The loss of Tassadar was a tragedy, and because that part of the story was so epic, it only makes the potential for the end of the Starcraft storyline even greater!
The story in WoL was just a load of shit. I'm sorry for my vulgarity but I'm not sorry for my description of its quality. The plot drivers in WoL ranged from the uninspired ragtag rebellion against Mengsk to the biggest cheapskate plot device of all - prophecies. When you know that random prophecies are prone to pop out anywhere to explain a significant plot turn, you just completely lose interest in the details of the plot. Analysing events, characters and motivations become meaningless when a random prophecy can pop out and change everything. Dramatic and crucial events in the story so far lose all meaning when the writers are willing to go "oops, Tassader isn't really dead lolol". It's like using the classic "you woke up from a nightmare" cliche.
Starcraft 2 story seems to me as if it's beyond saving. The story of WoL seems not only meaningless (as the main event of Kerrigan's purification seems to be just completely reversed in the HotS storyline) but has also dealt a fatal blow to the credibility of the entire storyline. Furthermore, the "choice" missions are completely incongruous with storytelling. Either the choices you make are meaningless, or Blizzard will have to create alternate universes for the rest of the story.
Sorry for my rant, but the story of WoL campaign was just bad bad bad bad bad BAD!
I have no issue with the fact that Tassadar might not "truly" be dead, with the whole protoss concept of reincarnation, and the void, and energy and all that jazz. But to have him hanging in limbo with the overmind, and as an another poster mentioned, his sacrifice having actually meant nothing. Pretty much a slap in the face to fans of the Protoss Campaign, Tassadar in general, and the epic SC1 story as a whole.
Not enough time to work out/fix the story? LOL. Give me a break. More browder bullshit. What the hell were they doing the past decade and a half? Blizzard just keeps confirming they don't seem to give two shits about delivering an actual piece of quality, rather than just a manufactured product.
good to know what everyone thinks about the people returning as ghosts in starwars. Well i expected to see khadgar again after he blew up the portal when wc3 was announced or atleast some survivors. Storys won't always be as you want them to be, i really missed the hereos send out in beyond the dark portal in wc3. Well atleast they have their place in new stormwind. On a side note yay i knew tassadar would come back as a ghost, though i predicted it for bw. (strongest psyonic in the toss army ... what else can you expect if he uses all his might at once and finds out that he made a mistake)
Anyway for me the sc2 story is good considering its a scifi rts. compared to others scifi games ... its probably very good (thinks of mass effect story line)
I'm pretty sure he is dead, he's just like obiwan, and can appear in visions an stuff. Like, they can revive zealots into dragoons, so why can't a high templar have a spirit form and interact with others?
On June 02 2011 01:11 Chill wrote: I've given up on the Starcraft story. I enjoy playing the single player but I just don't believe in the storyline anymore.
On June 01 2011 22:47 floor exercise wrote: "We're not sure about the original game" - SC2 development team, 2011
This.
What kind of professional gives an answer like that? Seriously? Especially coming from the "oh-we-spend-5-years-building-a-game-to-garantee-that-the-quality-is-perfect-for-the-fans"?
I love SC & BW's storyline, it was full of emotional moments, and Tassadar's sacrifice was one of the best things ever...
Original Starcraft story was lead by Chris Metzen and James Phinney. Phinney left for GW but Metzen is still in charge of SC lore. He wasnt present at interview. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StarCraft
Also brings up another point. Usually when fans pitch these lore clarification questions (Blizzcon) its usually Metzen or another creative development dev. They usually try to give their interpretation of events or clarify whats cannon. Dustin and david are more designer devs and Sigaty is a producer. There not the best people to ask.
That said I also felt Tassadar's reappearance cheapened his (and the players) actions in SC1. On the whole I felt that plot "development" took much more from Starcrafts lore than it gave back.
On June 02 2011 01:11 Chill wrote: I've given up on the Starcraft story. I enjoy playing the single player but I just don't believe in the storyline anymore.
Me too. And WarCraft, and Diablo. They've just made it so shitty... they don't have the old style they used to. Not to mention WarCraft's story is full of inconsistencies and plot holes.
On June 02 2011 01:32 tyCe wrote: I agree with Chill 100%.
The story in WoL was just a load of shit. I'm sorry for my vulgarity but I'm not sorry for my description of its quality. The plot drivers in WoL ranged from the uninspired ragtag rebellion against Mengsk to the biggest cheapskate plot device of all - prophecies. When you know that random prophecies are prone to pop out anywhere to explain a significant plot turn, you just completely lose interest in the details of the plot. Analysing events, characters and motivations become meaningless when a random prophecy can pop out and change everything. Dramatic and crucial events in the story so far lose all meaning when the writers are willing to go "oops, Tassader isn't really dead lolol". It's like using the classic "you woke up from a nightmare" cliche.
Starcraft 2 story seems to me as if it's beyond saving. The story of WoL seems not only meaningless (as the main event of Kerrigan's purification seems to be just completely reversed in the HotS storyline) but has also dealt a fatal blow to the credibility of the entire storyline. Furthermore, the "choice" missions are completely incongruous with storytelling. Either the choices you make are meaningless, or Blizzard will have to create alternate universes for the rest of the story.
Sorry for my rant, but the story of WoL campaign was just bad bad bad bad bad BAD!
Listen to this man: he knows what he's talking about.
The only bit of the WoL storyline I genuinely enjoyed was the cutscene where Tychus was talking to Matt about Kerrigan and Raynor. And that's ignoring the shaky cam bad horror movie Kerrigan kills some random dude footage Tychus was showing us.
If Tassadar really was just a vision to Zeratul, then yes, that would be kinda cheap. But if what Tassadar essentially said about his immortality and transcendence is going to be the direction Blizz really wants to take it, then that doesn't cheapen his sacrifice in SC1 at all.
Think of it like this; Tassadar really did sacrifice himself. He (most likely) didn't know he was going to transcend into a higher form on impact, he (most likely) thought he was going to die. He (most likely) really was giving his life in a final heroic effort to end the Overmind. So when he opens his eyes and realizes that he's not dead, that he's transcended mortality, he's like, "Oh, cool story, bro. Let's check out this whole immortality/transcendence business."
I don't agree. Most characters, from Raynor to Artanis, are ready to die for a cause if they have to. The unnamed protoss commanders who sacrificed themselves to lure Kerrigan's forces out of position while Zeratul killed Zasz are more heroic to me, because they are soldiers who did die. Tassadar is a soldier who, transcended or not, survived. Besides, Tassadar sacrificed himself to destroy the most terrible enemy of the Sector. Now we're told that the Overmind was only a puppet (and an unwilling one) in the hands of The Darkest Voice. If Tassadar sacrificed only his body and not his life, and that the enemy he destroyed was not the mastermind behind the story, then the final scene of the original game loses practically all the strength it had.
As far as I'm concerned, I'll be happy if Blizzard just re-retcons the concept of Tassadar being brought or ignore it altogether. Sure, it would weaken the prophecy/vision/DOOOOOOOM™ part of the plot, but in my humble opinion, all the more reason to do it. This entire plot line, including but not limited to Tassadar's survival, is a succession cheap plot devices. It should never have existed, least of all retcon the original storyline.
Valid points, and all the characters who were and are ready to die in the war are all very heroic and noble. Here's the thing about sacrifice, though; it's less about the act itself than it is the willingness to commit the act. Tassadar didn't know at the time what would happen to him. He really was giving his life to the cause. Just because he still has it doesn't change his willingness in that moment. In that sense he is just as much a hero as Raynor, etc.
Re: your point about the Overmind not being the mastermind behind the story, I feel ya there. My very first reaction when I got to that part of the cutscene in WoL was, "Oh, this old plot twist? Sigh. Alright, I'll roll with it." After you've seen the whole The Bad Guy Wasn't Really The Bad Guy and Dun dun DUN, There's Something Worse a few dozen times, the plot twist isn't much of a twist anymore.
On June 02 2011 01:11 Chill wrote: I've given up on the Starcraft story. I enjoy playing the single player but I just don't believe in the storyline anymore.
yea its pretty lame, after a few interviews about how they came up with the lore i was really disappointed in how little they seemed to care. they'll bs it now just to make something cool.
just like with Warcraft lore, they butchered the hell out of it.
I only hole that Diablo wont be the same... but I won't get my hopes up
On June 02 2011 01:11 Chill wrote: I've given up on the Starcraft story. I enjoy playing the single player but I just don't believe in the storyline anymore.
yea its pretty lame, after a few interviews about how they came up with the lore i was really disappointed in how little they seemed to care. they'll bs it now just to make something cool.
just like with Warcraft lore, they butchered the hell out of it.
I only hole that Diablo wont be the same... but I won't get my hopes up
And what's worse is that their definition of "cool" isn't even that great. Apparently overloading your game with cliche B-grade action movie dialogue, recycling the WC3 plot, and ridiculously overused prophecy plot devices is "cool".
I just wish Blizzard would stop BSing us over how super dedicated they are to the story and crap. They can make a game, but it's clear that their writing team just makes shit up on the spot regardless of how poorly it's supported by previous lore. HotS doesn't really get my hopes up story-wise since I still hear a lot of corny dialogue, and I really don't believe that they will make it much better than it is now. My confidence in their writing is really that low.
At least the campaign missions should be fun. That's one good thing I can take out of it.
On June 01 2011 16:23 VorcePA wrote: Whatever they plan to do with him, they need to get the original voice actor back on him. I cringed when I listened to the "new" Tassadar. He was easily my favorite character from SC1
Isn't the original voice actor deceased? I'm not trolling, I actually thought I read this somewhere. Anyway, I'm as pissed off about Tassadar as the rest of us...but like Chill I've really given up on the story. I just hope the campaign in HotS is more fun than WoL.
Well, I guess what I'm even more pissed at is that Raynor's BEST FRIEND Fenix isn't even mentioned in WoL. He could have at least had a pic of Fenix next to his liquor bottles instead of Kerrigan...I mean, it's because of Fenix he swore he'd have Kerrigan's head on a platter.
On June 02 2011 01:11 Chill wrote: I've given up on the Starcraft story. I enjoy playing the single player but I just don't believe in the storyline anymore.
yea it's unbelievably bad... the only good part is the graphics. whoever did graphics deserves a promotion
the storyline is just wow...i've played most of it over again, and the first time was unbearable the next few times i just skipped it entirely halfway..
and tassadar? to have zeratul believe whatever a hologram image from the overmind says? at least try to make it known that protoss have psionic link and psionic signature that cannot be easily duped... at least try to haze zeratul obtain more evidence that the overmind is what "tassadar" says it is... we are all adults and to have logical fallacies (appeal to authority) happen in our games is a severe turn off.
On June 02 2011 01:11 Chill wrote: I've given up on the Starcraft story. I enjoy playing the single player but I just don't believe in the storyline anymore.
yea it's unbelievably bad... the only good part is the graphics. whoever did graphics deserves a promotion
the storyline is just wow...i've played most of it over again, and the first time was unbearable the next few times i just skipped it entirely halfway..
and tassadar? to have zeratul believe whatever a hologram image from the overmind says? at least try to make it known that protoss have psionic link and psionic signature that cannot be easily duped... at least try to haze zeratul obtain more evidence that the overmind is what "tassadar" says it is... we are all adults and to have logical fallacies (appeal to authority) happen in our games is a severe turn off.
Well the Dark Templar cut their nerve cords as a sign of defiance to the Khalai, Zeratul wouldn't be able to feel if it was Tassadar or not.
The thing is that deceased protoss become a part of the psionic network. I'm not sure if they can interact with the living, but they certainly exist and their presence can be felt. This is why Tassadar's sacrifice was seen as such a big thing for the Khalai, and why he was seen as Adun's equal: he was destroyed so utterly that no trace of him remained in the network, and sacrificed himself for the good of his entire race. The fact that he returned as a spirit really is something of a slap in the face.
Tassadar death only removed his physical form and transcended to a spirit form (like Obiwan). They didn't just add Tassadar to give WoL a more interesting plot. Chris Metzen, author of SC/BW story, explains what happens to tassadar through the starcraft books which fills the backstory of sc/bw and its correlation with sc2.
He explains it in Blizzcon 07' lore panel interview: Tassadar channels both his own psionic energies and those of the dark templar through the hull of his flagship and crashes it into the Overmind. The resulting discharge of energy destroys the Overmind and transcends Tassadar to a new level of spiritual existence; Metzen refers to this transformation as becoming a "twilight messiah".
On June 02 2011 09:26 Starkye wrote: Tassadar death only removed his physical form and transcended to a spirit form (like Obiwan). They didn't just add Tassadar to give WoL a more interesting plot. Chris Metzen, author of SC/BW story, explains what happens to tassadar through the starcraft books which fills the backstory of sc/bw and its correlation with sc2.
He explains it in Blizzcon 07' lore panel interview: Tassadar channels both his own psionic energies and those of the dark templar through the hull of his flagship and crashes it into the Overmind. The resulting discharge of energy destroys the Overmind and transcends Tassadar to a new level of spiritual existence; Metzen refers to this transformation as becoming a "twilight messiah".
That's one of my major complaints regarding Blizzard lore. With each passing year they put more and more story into the side materials, which ends up leaving the actual games feel hollow and empty. I always found it strange that Blizzard apparently operates under the philosophy of keeping SC newbies up to date by not bringing up anything that happened in previous games so as to not confuse them, but then they put a crapton of novel-only characters that only a tiny portion of the fanbase would know about. They refuse to mention Fenix, but have no problem shoving Stettman and Matt in our faces.
It's kinda like what happened with the Star Wars prequels. The actual movies are crap because so much of the interesting stuff is packed into the novels and cartoons. Especially the Jedi characters because you basically can't relate to them at all unless you've seen the side material beforehand. Blizzard is pretty much going down the same road with their lore, which I simply can't understand at all because it has such a detrimental effect on their in-game stories. Unfortunately it's a bit too late to reverse the trend now since Blizzard has no shown no indication that they have any problem with it.
On June 02 2011 01:11 Chill wrote: I've given up on the Starcraft story. I enjoy playing the single player but I just don't believe in the storyline anymore.
I might have to do the same thing. Some people brought up excuses but I don't know.
Well, in the books and the SC1 movie scene of him flying in to the Overmind, you can kind of make some references to the "ascension" of Adun. Adun tutored, what became the Dark Templars, into how to use their powers in a more acceptable light. By doing this, he began to learn their powers. In protection of the Dark Templars, he used both his dark and "light" (normal, I guess) abilities and he "disappeared" in a ball of light.
The protoss believed this to be a form of ascension. I've always considered Tassadar's combining of the crystals (one dark, one light) in his carrier, followed by his final selfless act, to be that very same form of ascension that Adun had. Adun "ascended" without having any violence inflicted upon him or crashing a carrier in to the ground. Tassadar turned the carrier in to this same "ball of light" that Adun had been during his final act.
Personally, I don't consider this explanation to cheapen anything by having shown his face in one single scene of the game. Personally, I think people are sometimes just looking for things to hate because SC2 wasn't as grimdark as SC1. I expected Tassadar to come back in some light or another after reading the books, before SC2 was even out. I don't really feel its cheapened anything
On June 02 2011 01:11 Chill wrote: I've given up on the Starcraft story. I enjoy playing the single player but I just don't believe in the storyline anymore.
yea its pretty lame, after a few interviews about how they came up with the lore i was really disappointed in how little they seemed to care. they'll bs it now just to make something cool.
just like with Warcraft lore, they butchered the hell out of it.
I only hole that Diablo wont be the same... but I won't get my hopes up
And what's worse is that their definition of "cool" isn't even that great. Apparently overloading your game with cliche B-grade action movie dialogue, recycling the WC3 plot, and ridiculously overused prophecy plot devices is "cool".
I just wish Blizzard would stop BSing us over how super dedicated they are to the story and crap. They can make a game, but it's clear that their writing team just makes shit up on the spot regardless of how poorly it's supported by previous lore. HotS doesn't really get my hopes up story-wise since I still hear a lot of corny dialogue, and I really don't believe that they will make it much better than it is now. My confidence in their writing is really that low.
At least the campaign missions should be fun. That's one good thing I can take out of it.
What's funny is that WC3's plot is just SC's plot done badly. I absolutely hated WC3's plot. It was full of non-sequitur, illogical decisions and plain old Deus Ex Machinas.
Watch this video guys. First Tassadar says he speaks from the beyond. Zeratul then asks Tassadar how he survived after he was killed while slaying the Overmind. Tassadar explicitly says that it is a tale for another time, meaning he wasn't just added without back to it, the back story was just excluded from the scene. There is a reason for him being there though. After Tassadar talks to Zeratul, Zeratul says that he cannot bear this vision. This reinforces the point that Tassadar might not have actually been there but rather just been a vision which isn't that uncommon.
On June 02 2011 03:36 Archerofaiur wrote: Original Starcraft story was lead by Chris Metzen and James Phinney. Phinney left for GW but Metzen is still in charge of SC lore. He wasnt present at interview. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StarCraft
Also brings up another point. Usually when fans pitch these lore clarification questions (Blizzcon) its usually Metzen or another creative development dev. They usually try to give their interpretation of events or clarify whats cannon. Dustin and david are more designer devs and Sigaty is a producer. There not the best people to ask.
That said I also felt Tassadar's reappearance cheapened his (and the players) actions in SC1. On the whole I felt that plot "development" took much more from Starcrafts lore than it gave back.
was pissed when tassadar reappeared wtf @ that moment completely destroys the significance of his sacrafice if he just comes back. even if he is ascended or whatever fantasy based reason
chris metzen feels like the crazy guy with all these wild ideas that are just nuts and james phinney kept him grounded on earth story writing used to be one of blizzard's biggest strengths now stuff doesn't make sense and is just outright crazy
i was REALLY dissapointed in that hots campaign is just turning out to be the same as WoL. but you talk to a zerg thing instead of hanson or whatever in all the interviews they said that was the most difficult thing to NOT just do the same as WoL i thought they meant they wanted to do something different not to mention the entire zerg storyline so far seems identical to brood war. running around fighting zerg to regain control of them. why are we playing brood war again with worse writing.
On June 02 2011 12:40 Nokarot wrote: Well, in the books and the SC1 movie scene of him flying in to the Overmind, you can kind of make some references to the "ascension" of Adun. Adun tutored, what became the Dark Templars, into how to use their powers in a more acceptable light. By doing this, he began to learn their powers. In protection of the Dark Templars, he used both his dark and "light" (normal, I guess) abilities and he "disappeared" in a ball of light.
The protoss believed this to be a form of ascension. I've always considered Tassadar's combining of the crystals (one dark, one light) in his carrier, followed by his final selfless act, to be that very same form of ascension that Adun had. Adun "ascended" without having any violence inflicted upon him or crashing a carrier in to the ground. Tassadar turned the carrier in to this same "ball of light" that Adun had been during his final act.
Personally, I don't consider this explanation to cheapen anything by having shown his face in one single scene of the game. Personally, I think people are sometimes just looking for things to hate because SC2 wasn't as grimdark as SC1. I expected Tassadar to come back in some light or another after reading the books, before SC2 was even out. I don't really feel its cheapened anything
I guess most people where to young to realize this when they played sc1 and didn't have alot of understanding from the storyline and never read some side material, so they just saw a great boom. And when replaying the campaigns always skipped the mission briefing. Anyway the greatest sacrifice for a protoss is to give up his body and morph into an archon. So it was a great sacrifice from tassader even if he is now still a ghost.
Campaign was awesome but the plot is really lacking and annoying. I found myself wanting to skip most of the cutscenes. Felt too much like warcraft 3. Dark voice and being overrun by this new race of supercreatures from the void? wtf that's like the same damn plot.
Not to mention Jim Raynor being all mopey about his girlfriend, I don't recall any romantic hints in Brood War and Kerrigan had long been zerg'd by that point. So it seems like that also was pulled out of thin air.
Speaking of cutscenes why weren't there any cool ones. The only cool scene was zeratul/kerrigan. I remember SC1 had cutscenes of terran getting zerg'd. One had dragoons being warped in by arbiters and jacking a terran base, that stuff still gives me chills because it's so cool. That one cutscene where Fenix is getting overrun and his psi blades start to fail? $$$
I physically winced when I heard "Tassadar? But... you died!" I loved WoL's campaign gameplay, it was brilliant, but that one scene was so bad, especially from Zeratul's voice actor, that it just ruined the protoss minicampaign for me. The only way of "redeeming" it for me would be for it to have been a trap set by the Overmind to make sure Kerrigan wouldn't be killed.
I agree with the guy who said that the guy who did the graphics should be promoted though - those were beautiful. Especially the fight between Zeratul and Kerrigan, that has GOT to be my favorite cutscene (even if prerendered) of every videogame ever.
I wouldn't worry about this hole until the LoTV story is told. What we are getting from the WOL plotline is one point of view for the most part. They could have something lined up for LoTV that they did not want to spoil, and so they gave the answer that made them look clueless. Blizzard is good at making themselves look stupid, but then all of a sudden everything clicks and it is like "how did they do that?".
Ever since that dude stood up and called out Blizzard on WoW lore at that one Blizzcon I gave up on believing they could keep things straight. I liked the Tassadar character and wanted him to be dead though since he did sacrifice himself but if there gonna bring him back then bring him back and don't be so lopsided on the whole thing lol.
My friend brought up an interesting "possible scenario" that would look like a good save if Blizzard did it. I don't personally know if it would be "good". The idea is that the whole Tassadar thing was actually a fake - a sort of double feint from the Overmind to confuse Zeratul... Oh well, just an idea.
I think it is quite obvious that in Void Tassadar will be revealed as Toss Jesus.
But yeah I wasn't too happy when he was brought back. Unless he isn't really back and that is some sort of Kali or whatever projection of him. But even that doesn't really fit because the character he appeared too shouldn't have any such link.
On June 01 2011 13:42 Arterial wrote: I, like many others, was like "bleh -.-" when Tassadar appeared.
His death in BW was powerful and interesting, reviving him is a real shame.
I'm hoping there's more behind the scene stuff going on than WOL puts on.
You should read the books: Queen of Blades and the Dark Templar book series. There it is essentially revealed that through combining the skills of a High Templar and a Dark Templar, Tassadar somehow managed to reach another level of existence (the same thing happened to or was done by Adun according to Zeratul's suspicions).
so they went the star wars/return of the jedi obi-won kenobi/ yoda another plane of existence via the force route
On June 02 2011 01:11 Chill wrote: I've given up on the Starcraft story. I enjoy playing the single player but I just don't believe in the storyline anymore.
Agreed, I feel like whoever developed the plotline and script of Starcraft II didn't give two shits about what happened in Brood War and just wanted to do his own thing :/
On June 02 2011 01:11 Chill wrote: I've given up on the Starcraft story. I enjoy playing the single player but I just don't believe in the storyline anymore.
I really agree with this (except for the single player, I don't have sc2). The story of Starcraft has become warcraft-y for me, this is why I gave it up when I knew how it went. Reading this thread gave some comfort in the fact that I'm not the only one with opinions like these.
I didn't know that Tassadar was confirmed as the Twilight Messiah (Anakh S'un in Nerazim myth). I'm so uninterested at the plot anymore that I didn't bother to know this.
Watch this video guys. First Tassadar says he speaks from the beyond. Zeratul then asks Tassadar how he survived after he was killed while slaying the Overmind. Tassadar explicitly says that it is a tale for another time, meaning he wasn't just added without back to it, the back story was just excluded from the scene.
I think I have to agree with some of the above that of all the issues in WoL campaign (the bipolar characters due to the mission structure and the whole retcon of the Overmind) Tassadar is one of the least important (although a bit of the slap in the face.)
Here's hoping HotS digs the game out of some of the holes. At the very least, I'll settle for a better presentation of a mediocre story rather than the uniformly poor pairing we got last time.
Yea, he's still dead his spirit just remains. After all, when templars die they can still be communicated with at the Templar Archives (am I wrong here?) or something with Archons...
I bet the ghost image of Tassadar is a made up tool of the Dark Voice to manipulate Zeratul.
Yeah, if we ever get a Tassadar who laughes and say "come on Zeratul, did you actually believe a random prophecy?" and turns into the Dark Voice, I'd praise the writers' names on every forum, put a picture of them on my wall and bow before it every time I start the game. But honestly, I'm not convinced that will happen.
Off topic: I found the Warcraft 3 plot to be excellent oO There was no actual prophecy in it, Medivh called himself the Prophet, but the only thing he knew was that the Legion would come back. The rest was just for the show. The game even goes out of his way to explain that, although manipulated by the demons, the orcs comitted all their crimes in their own free will. The atmosphere was much darker than the one in SC2 (not as dark as Brood War but still), the humans were the weakest of the four faction by the end of the game, and even the final teamup made sense.
Blizzard hasn't been able to put together a cohesive storyline since the original SC. WC3, WoW and SC2 all use the same plot with the same characters. The only difference is the slight change of setting. It's 2011, mediocrity abounds.
The funniest thing I find about that comment by Browder is when that he talks about how they had to bring in Tassadar for the big reveal to Zeratul about the Overmind's motivations because otherwise Zeratul wouldn't believe it, Browder is inadvertently touching upon exactly how I felt when I saw that scene - I couldn't believe they actually came up with a plot like that. And unlike Zeratul, having Tassadar magically show up to monologue about it doesn't leave me satisfied.
On June 04 2011 05:26 Fleebenworth wrote: Blizzard hasn't been able to put together a cohesive storyline since the original SC. WC3, WoW and SC2 all use the same plot with the same characters. The only difference is the slight change of setting. It's 2011, mediocrity abounds.
If they all use the same plot, then they simply expressed it far better in WarCraft 3. It had compelling characters--I mean, Atrus goes full-on evil, but his path up until getting his soul stolen was entirely understandable. The Orc's freedom was compelling, and the humans were relatable but at the same time not perfect good guys to root for. Everyone had a dynamic level.
Needless to say I don't see that in WoL. The plot is ill-defined and full of contradictions, and the characters are largely uncompelling, one-note, or the opposite of what we expected from everything that came before.
i think it was more of a plot seed - not something they put a ton of thought into when they did it, but they'll probably vamp off it later.
i still wasn't totally thrilled with it tbh, but whatever, i'm trying to roll with it. most science fiction has cheesy plot devices and you just have to suspend belief with those things in order to enjoy the good stuff.
oh right the fun thing of warcraft 3. While in warcraft 2 guldan summons demons and loses control in warcraft 3 the demons suddenly are the ones that made the orks evil, so funny. Guess guldan missed that demons are his bosses by that time hehe. Still sad Lothar died, i played that mission so often until i could save him hehe. Warcraft 1 ki was the best anyway. And Medivh the person ... responsible for the orc invasion, now saving the world was ... Still warcraft 3 was a nice story.
I am happy as long as a game doesn't rewrite history as much as WoW did hehe. (but the books scattered all around are still lovely)
Sc2 ist also a nice story, but there will bugs in the history, i mean 11 years apart from the games hehe.
Why do people take details in stories so seriously? I mean, I wasnt that far into the SC1/BW storyline, but why is the WoL storyline so bad? I see WoL as kind of a beginning. No big story just booms all the way down. Raynor kinda retired, Tychus showed up and reminded him of the good old times, Kerrigan showed up again and needed to be dealt with, Zeratul showed up and warned not to kill Kerrigan and now with HotS and LotV the fun epic part begins. At least, that is what I expect.
And on the whole storyhole thing: Try to create a whole universe, an epic story with sooo many characters, so many plot lines and not screw up ANYTHING. And: let it be awesome all the time and do not copy anything from what has been there before! Go, try it. There will always be holes in stories. Every series has a lot of them. Some are annoying, some aren´t. Just deal with it dammit. You can´t build a storyline with many people involved and not screw up anything. Calm down, enjoy and wait for the expansions to kick ass.
On June 05 2011 09:39 Macmacmacmac wrote: I guess y'all have never played wow. In upcoming patch we are killing a boss that we killed 5 years ago, nobody is ever dead according to blizz.
Again? Which one is it now? Stopped playing WoW after WotLK.
On June 05 2011 09:39 Macmacmacmac wrote: I guess y'all have never played wow. In upcoming patch we are killing a boss that we killed 5 years ago, nobody is ever dead according to blizz.
Again? Which one is it now? Stopped playing WoW after WotLK.
From my SC2 account I've seen old WoW friends in Zul'gurub/Zul'Aman and BWL... they just reuse old content, it's sad.
Also, lol:
World of Warcraft patch 4.2 will offer hardy adventurers an opportunity to turn the tide in the Firelands, a huge outdoor raid of the highest difficulty, with 10-person and 25-person normal and Heroic modes. It will be a scorching opportunity to delve into this Elemental Plane, where six unique bosses stand between you and the reinvigorated Ragnaros.
The Tassadar thing didn't really bother me at all, what bothered me was the whole "The Overmind was being used". From someone who played the original game numerous times, the Overmind was just so unforgiving and vicious and went to Auir to make his species "Perfect". I can't take the idea he was being used seriously at all.
If Blizzard wants to fix this plot hole they can just explain it away to be that when Tassadar crashed the Gantrithor into the Overmind he and the Overmind merged into one being, which is the Dark Voice(This theory could be somewhat supported by the fact that the Dark Voice's portrait looks like Tassadar with some zerg affectations). Now the dark voice is still pursuing the Overmind's original goal of merging the zerg and the protoss.The image Tassadar showed to Zeratul wasn't a real foretelling of the future simply a false vision to convince him that Kerrigan needed to be saved, as she is somehow still integral to the Dark Voice's plan.
If they did it that way not only would it be kind of a left field haha gotcha bitches moment when they revealed it, it would also allow them to stick to zerg being a evil bi-organism out to prefect its evolution. Not the hurp derp zerg are gonna be good goise now in heart of the swarm. Which is probably the direction Blizzard is already going in.
Does anyone else have a feeling that Tassador is similar to Medivh of Warcraft III. I feel like they are recycling some of the Warcraft III storyline by making a powerful figure like Tassador come back from the dead and warn the three warring races of an impending doom. Then, after some struggle, the three races come together and take down this ultimate evil. It feels like the same thing as Medivh coming back to Lordaeron as "The Prophet" and uniting the three warring races of WCIII against the Undead Menace.
Come on Blizzard I feel like you're not trying as hard you should be.
On June 02 2011 09:26 Starkye wrote: Tassadar death only removed his physical form and transcended to a spirit form (like Obiwan). They didn't just add Tassadar to give WoL a more interesting plot. Chris Metzen, author of SC/BW story, explains what happens to tassadar through the starcraft books which fills the backstory of sc/bw and its correlation with sc2.
He explains it in Blizzcon 07' lore panel interview: Tassadar channels both his own psionic energies and those of the dark templar through the hull of his flagship and crashes it into the Overmind. The resulting discharge of energy destroys the Overmind and transcends Tassadar to a new level of spiritual existence; Metzen refers to this transformation as becoming a "twilight messiah".
That's honestly not much better. Again, we're entering fantasy realm. To be fair, Protoss was always a bit like that but the Protoss campaigns were also the worst in the game story wise in SC1/BW.
Cerebrates only die if you kill them with dark energy that stops them from healing? Come on now.
But it's obvious Tassadar was a cheap plot device. "Yes, I am back, but that is a story for another time." Terrible story telling.
It's interesting that the Blizzcon Lore Panels began as a way for fans to get more information and flush out the story more and now they're mostly a way to complain about bad story lines and publicly challenge the writers on their mistakes.
On June 02 2011 01:11 Chill wrote: I've given up on the Starcraft story. I enjoy playing the single player but I just don't believe in the storyline anymore.
CHILL GET OUT
*sorry, couldn't resist hehe*
Anyways... I'm surprised that so many of you still remember the story from BW, which is like, what, 10 years ago?! Granted, many of you probably replay the campaign during that period, but still... I don't remember anything from the story. Maybe 'cause I always thought of SC as a multiplayer game.
Oh well, for those of you who clings to the storyline, I hope you get what you want out of HotS.
I remember how great, and eloquent the speeches were in Starcraft 1. Remember Duran's speech to Zeratul in the protoss bonus mission during the latter stages of the zerg campaign? It was amazing! The same with Mengsk's speech, or the cinematics where they blew up an infested science facility. Its like all that raw talent simply disappeared...everything just became cheesy, stereotypical hero stuff.
And what's most perplexing at the end of WoL is how Jim Raynor saves Kerrigan...and somehow they're going to create a plot device where she just decides "eh, I'll go back to being zerg queen now". I mean, that's pretty disappointing.
The only really irritating thing that stands out for me in starcraft was when the overmind died, who was the coolest voice/character ever, and I was forced to work for an infested ghost/former love interest who was focused on vengeance instead of an entity that actually had a master plan for his race (perfection).
I'm glad for Diablo 3 they actually have Leonard Boyarsky in charge of world design; he was a key designer for Fallout, maybe one of the best RPGs ever made. Hopefully he can steer the team in a good direction with that game! Looking at the lore page for the monsters/playable characters at the official D3 site it seems to be pretty good quality so far. Enjoyable reading.
Starcraft 1 already said Tassadar reached a fulfillment or whatever beyond what other protosses have achieved--the "Khala's end" or something. It's basically obi-won Tassadar as far as I'm concerned.
Cerebrates only die if you kill them with dark energy that stops them from healing? Come on now.
As far as I remember, the Cerebrates didn't heal themselves, they were a part of the collective zerg conscience that could be "infused" in a new body by the Overmind. The Dark Templar mastered a new form of psionic powers after they left the Khala, and it happened that these energies were also those that the Overmind used (both races were heavily modified by the Xel'naga, so why not). It was only "dark" because the rest of the protoss called it such, it has nothing "dark" per se. Note sure if that's written down somewhere, but I've always assumed that the Dark Templar's power was to prevent the Cerebrate's mind to be transfered into a new body once it is slain - hence destroying that part of the collective conscience.
Yeah, the Overmind is the good guy now. He only murdered billions of humans and forced numerous species into extinction because the Xel'Naga programmed him to.
The part that Tassadar popped out as a floating specter was nonsense. In BW, when a character dies, it's a big deal. What's with the magical and prophecy craps?
What's next? Adun popping out of thin air and save the universe singlehandedly?
The only thing unique about Tassadar is that he is both a templar of Khalai AND a dark templar, able to wield both the light and the dark. That still does not explain the floating specter part.
Tassadar's sacrifice was one of the most powerful moments of SC1. I memorized his speech over a decade ago, and I still remember each word of it today. To bring him back as part of a cheap plot device...
Let's just say that I hope this isn't the case -- that he wasn't just brought back to fill Zeratul in on backstory.
Remember us, Executor. Remember what was done here, today.
On June 08 2011 02:58 dukethegold wrote: The only thing unique about Tassadar is that he is both a templar of Khalai AND a dark templar, able to wield both the light and the dark. That still does not explain the floating specter part.
Yes, it does. And it's been explained many times in this very thread.
Like it or not, there aren't actually any plot holes in the storyline. It all makes sense in the in-game universe. That is not to say that SC2 is as good, or BW was bad, or that Tassadar's return wasn't a recycled storyline from another game, or that the explanations are just patches to make a half-decent rug, or whatever. You can all have opinions on the quality of the plot, but inventing plot holes when they do not exist is something else entirely.
On June 08 2011 02:58 dukethegold wrote: The part that Tassadar popped out as a floating specter was nonsense. In BW, when a character dies, it's a big deal. What's with the magical and prophecy craps?
Yes, in BW this is true, we aren't mentioning those "other games" where that isn't the case. Blizzard has been killing, reviving, and re-killing the same characters in most of their IPs for a while now. Sorry for the lore fans but SC2 got the Knaack treatment.
On June 08 2011 02:58 dukethegold wrote: The part that Tassadar popped out as a floating specter was nonsense. In BW, when a character dies, it's a big deal. What's with the magical and prophecy craps?
Yes, in BW this is true, we aren't mentioning those "other games" where that isn't the case. Blizzard has been killing, reviving, and re-killing the same characters in most of their IPs for a while now. Sorry for the lore fans but SC2 got the Knaack treatment.
I'd say it's less Knaak and more Metzen becoming George Lucas II.
I don't know how well this goes with people who feel deeply for Tassadar (I did not play BW, but have ordered it :D).
I think Tassadar's appearance doesn't necessarily mean hes not dead (even if its not just a vision/imagination).
Have any of you ever read up on the Halo bgstory? Read this: http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Gravemind Maybe an Overmind and a Gravemind have more in common than just a similar name...
Upon killing a lifeform a gravemind acquires all the bio-data and biological processing power of his victim, giving it access to all memories. When Tassadar touched/crashed into the overmind, maybe he either 'merged' with the Overmind or his bio-data got transfered into the system of the Overmind.
Then, when Zeratul made contact with the cortex of the Overmind by touching the tendrils, he could also have found the data of Tassadar.
Plz lemme know what you think of this theory ^^.
(Excuse me for my (possibly) confusing English, I'm not from an English speaking country)
We've reached a point in our culture, where I can't even become interested in a new storyline any more, because I know it will end with angels / ghosts / revived characters rescuing everything anyway. Video games and television series are particularly prone to that.
It was ok, when it was done once in the Return of the Jedi with Ewoks, an unrealistic space fight and Jedi ghosts. But that's it! Stop that! Think about something new! Invent real cause-and-effect-relationships and practical, intelligent solutions.
We really need laws to be put into place against metaphysical bs writing. If they mix in everything you can imagine, you can recognize a structure any more.
And the Gravemind thing is obviously a rip-off. The whole industry behaves like that.
On June 10 2011 02:29 SanMaya wrote: I don't know how well this goes with people who feel deeply for Tassadar (I did not play BW, but have ordered it :D).
I think Tassadar's appearance doesn't necessarily mean hes not dead (even if its not just a vision/imagination).
Have any of you ever read up on the Halo bgstory? Read this: http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Gravemind Maybe an Overmind and a Gravemind have more in common than just a similar name...
(Excuse me for my (possibly) confusing English, I'm not from an English speaking country)
The whole Halo universe is a rip off of the Starcraft universe, which has obvious ties to Warhammer 40K (If I'm not mistaken Starcraft was originally intended to be the PC version of 40K. But someone please factcheck me). Anyway, in Halo, Zerg=Flood (Overmind=Gravemind) Protoss=Covenant (Elites=Zealots, both even use energy blades) and Terran obviously = Humans.
Also, your English is better than most native English speakers, unfortunately for us >.<
On June 01 2011 22:47 floor exercise wrote: "We're not sure about the original game" - SC2 development team, 2011
I facepalmed when I saw this in the write-up. Everything made sense after that though - that MUST be why the SC2 WoL plot was complete garbage. There was a point when I actually gave Blizzard credit for their storytelling abilities (SC1/BW/WC3/TFT). The only reason I played the singleplayer was to see how the plot developed; instead I felt forced to play through gimmicky campaign maps in order to advance a horrible story.
I think one of the reasons WoL's story was so garbage compared to SC1/BW was because they got rid of the mission briefings where a lot of plot & character development happened.
I just somehow pray they can work it into a really neat plotwist, that was in the works from the start. Not many routes to go with that but..I don't know, like the overmind was in a slumberish state, conjured the image of tassadar to trick zeratul..ehrf..no hope :c
On June 02 2011 01:11 Chill wrote: I've given up on the Starcraft story. I enjoy playing the single player but I just don't believe in the storyline anymore.
Agreed... "herpderp, the Zerg aren't evil, they are controlled by something evil. They just happen to be horribly evil looking!" "BTW we brought Tassadar back from the dead for a 2 minute cutscene for uguys so u cood seehim again." I didn't play WoL campaign for a friggen Disney happy ending where Kerrigan becomes human again. I wanted SciFi political backstabbing damnit! lol
Did anyone else think it is a little bit strange that tassadar threw his ship (full of templar energies) into the overmind and all of the sudden a mysterious Protoss-Zerg hybrid started appearing? I'm just saying... It seems a little obvious to me that tassadar is the hybrid, or at least plays a very big role in it's creation.
On June 11 2011 07:50 0c3LoT wrote: I think one of the reasons WoL's story was so garbage compared to SC1/BW was because they got rid of the mission briefings where a lot of plot & character development happened.
That's a pretty good point. While my memory of it is shaky, I remember being able to read a lot into Raynor and Mengsk through their voices and tones alone.
On June 13 2011 09:10 deadjawa wrote: Did anyone else think it is a little bit strange that tassadar threw his ship (full of templar energies) into the overmind and all of the sudden a mysterious Protoss-Zerg hybrid started appearing? I'm just saying... It seems a little obvious to me that tassadar is the hybrid, or at least plays a very big role in it's creation.
Shh, don't give the Blizzard story writers free ideas.
Kerrigan chooses to be zerg queen instead of human=complete fail on any level to develop a coherent story line. Yeah the Tassadar thing is bullshit, but if Jim took all his people and the dominion onto the zerg homeworld, miracled a victory using alien technology, only to have her choose to lead the swarm and become reinfested. Well....I better see Fenix, Dugaul, Alexis, Duran, and the guys from the cutscene "it's a zergling lester" or I'm gonna be facepalming my way through the rest of SC2
On June 03 2011 01:08 DuneBug wrote: Campaign was awesome but the plot is really lacking and annoying. I found myself wanting to skip most of the cutscenes. Felt too much like warcraft 3. Dark voice and being overrun by this new race of supercreatures from the void? wtf that's like the same damn plot.
Not to mention Jim Raynor being all mopey about his girlfriend, I don't recall any romantic hints in Brood War and Kerrigan had long been zerg'd by that point. So it seems like that also was pulled out of thin air.
Speaking of cutscenes why weren't there any cool ones. The only cool scene was zeratul/kerrigan. I remember SC1 had cutscenes of terran getting zerg'd. One had dragoons being warped in by arbiters and jacking a terran base, that stuff still gives me chills because it's so cool. That one cutscene where Fenix is getting overrun and his psi blades start to fail? $$$
Yeah, basically that. The story needs to be more... gritty and well... frankly... better written. I haven't lost hope yet. If you've been following the SC2 books and comics there are plenty of examples of darker tales and at times excellent story telling.
On June 02 2011 03:25 emc wrote: I'm pretty sure he is dead, he's just like obiwan, and can appear in visions an stuff. Like, they can revive zealots into dragoons, so why can't a high templar have a spirit form and interact with others?
I was going to post just this.
The lore in BW was that dragoons were piloted by the souls of dead zealots.
It seems that death isn't really a big deal for the protoss.
Sorry guys, this post ended up being inordinately huge.
But it would be nice if somebody contributing to the discussion would read it since I like talking about this topic ^_^
tl;dr at the bottom _______________________________________ + Show Spoiler +
I don't know about you guys, but when it comes to Sc2 lore, I feel that when it comes to Tassadar we are at a point which is relatively untouched.
If Tassadar was one of the first Protoss to combine the powers of both the high and the dark templar, then doesn't it make sense that something could happen which is completely unexpected in regards to his death?
Somebody mentioned earlier that because protoss normally become one with the Khala (or something like this) when they die, and because Tassadar's death was him giving up his chance to do so - that this is what makes Tassadar's sacrifice so important and moving. Said person said also that to bring Tassadar back from this kind of sacrifice is like a 'slap in the face' the the Khalai Protoss.
Now, I'm no lore hero, but it seems to me that all of these Protoss associated with the Khala have no links to the Dark Templar, who forsook the Khala, and that this division between normal Protoss and the Dark Templar is the primary, most central division that exists within Protoss society.
If you think about it like that, then it's not such a huge step to then say that Tassadar, the Protoss who was able to transcend both the primary physical difference between the High and Dark Templar Castes (that is, to gain mastery of both sides of the fence, which apparently stem from either being part of the Khala or not), and transcend the primary societal difference that splits apart an entire highly evolved, highly philosophical race, (sorry for all the commas, it's convoluted), Tassadar is basically the Protoss who transcended Protoss differences.
Does it not seem also possible that Tassadar could then achieve a higher existence, higher than what either the High Templar (normal protoss) or Dark Templar separated could have achieved? I don't know, it's not a crazy stretch.
To me though, it still feels a bit lacking. But I don't think that this is because of a weakness in the story points or the lore or some such, I think that the weakness lies in the tool they used to tell us something that we didn't know already.
In fantasy or sci-fi storytelling, one of the big problems that can easily crop up is a problem of the audience not knowing enough about what you are telling. I expressed that akwardly, but in longhand what I mean is. . . In sci-fi, and in fantasy stories, what makes them both sci-fi and fantasy is that the storytellers alter something fundamental about the setting of the story.
I.e. Magic is possible, or Telepathy is possible, or we have technology so far ahead it seems like magic (etc).+ Show Spoiler +
So when you have things like the above which fundamentally alter the way that the world works, there is a big danger of going too far with the changes, and losing the audience because it seems gratuitous (this might garner a lot of hate, but i'm looking at you 'flames of emotion Natsu (Fairy Tail)'). Basically, the resolution for the story is deus ex machina esque, i.e. if Tassadar can come back and is transcended, why wont he just wtfpwn all the baddies for us? Or, more solidly, goddamn you stupid ascended beings in stargate, you suck and have no passion
I left this in spoilers also because it's not directly to do with my argument, unless you are interested in deconstructing my thinking.
So what I am getting at saying is, the problem for me isn't that it was cheap to bring back Tassadar, rather that it seems cheap because they are using an as yet unexplained lore-based tool to do so. High and Dark Templar, and their unification of all their junk is as yet unexplored, Tassadar led the way and died as a figurehead for a new way of thinking in Protoss society. He knew things that no Protoss knew, and his death (assuming thinks like normally Khalai Protoss become one with the khala) ought to similarly transcend the things which he transcended, otherwise his transcendance of all that junk was flawed, fundamentally, because Protoss normally transcend life in some way when they die, so if Tassadar the Transcendant Protoss (^^) didn't manage to transcend life in some way, then what has he transcended?
Now, I don't honestly imagine that I've managed to sway anyone with this, there's probably some key lore point from chapter five of book seven in the appendix of a book about warcraft one, in a preview of the story about starcraft hidden in hindi script that I've missed, but I don't mind.
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tl;dr ... Tassadar's death involves unexplored mechanics of the starcraft lore and world Thus, his 'revival' or whatever it winds up being isn't all that solid if you know both bw and sc2 stories
All of what I've said aside, it could just as easily be a trick by The Fallen One or something like this, because like that other guy said, Dark Templar are not linked to the Khalai which could mean Zeratul is liable to be tricked.
That and I don't particularly like the voice acting. They should do it with Russians for the Terrans, since they are often badass enough to be Russians anyway, and sub in English.
I wrote this post entirely because I could just hear people crying for my utterly important opinion.
Also, think about it, Zerg are perfection of form (right?) and Protoss are perfection of essence (i think), anyway it's something along those lines. However, Protoss which are supposed to be perfection of essence are though united, are still split in two in a big way. Perfection of essence to me basically means 'soul', so if I'm right about what that means, then from soul to what Tassadar is in Sc2 isn't that big a deal, because perfect of essence implies afterlife in some form if it means something like soul.
So, Tassadar the Unifier is one of the only Protoss to achieve perfection within his race. The Zerg, which are implicitly unified, have no such problems of division (when led by the Overmind, which apparently occupies the same space as Tassadar anyway). What's the difference between essence and form? I say soul because if it weren't something outside of the physical, then it would be hard to nail down to precise difference between those two concepts, which is why I jumped to soul.
On June 02 2011 01:11 Chill wrote: I've given up on the Starcraft story. I enjoy playing the single player but I just don't believe in the storyline anymore.
Did you ever actually Believe in the storyline? I'm more or less on the same page though I guess. I don't really care all too much about the lore. I'm more interested in the gameplay of the campaign. I love 'hero style' games, such as (spoilers) the Nova and Tosh ones in SC2, and I really dislike the timelimit games, such as the banshee one, and the jungle gas stuff. I wanna chill and be tricky in my campaign games ^^
Zeratul, in my opinion, when learning from the Overmind's Tendrils' he was able to cross with what the Overmind could absorb from Tassadar's High Templar energy upon his sacrifice. When Zasz was killed by Zeratul in the first campaign (SC1) he was able to connect with the Dark Templar and learn many a secrets hidden from his consciousness.
What we have learned from WoL is that the Xel' Naga used both Protoss' and Zerg's birth as a start-up to their reincarnation life cycle as they had lived out their predicted life span. The Overmind had a predetermined fate - to merge the Protoss and Zerg races to complete the cycle of the Xel' Naga.
Whats corrupting the cycle is the Dark Voice's involvement in:
1) Escaping imprisonment - This is further explained in the books. 2) Infiltrating SC personas - Also explained in the games and books. 3) Perverting the Cycle - Explained in Zeratul's SC: BW secret mission and WoL.
In some aspects you can say that Overmind is to the Zerg what Tassadar should be for Protoss - a focal spiritual point for the race to be commanded by. The Overmind unified the broods of the swarm and Tassadar, by his sacrifice, unified two tribes (DT and HT) that would not even bother intersecting without his involvement/death.
It is still unclear however, if the Dark Voice is suspect in foul play in terms of projecting images onto Zeratul during his Tendril vision's from the Overmind's corpse. We still have no clue how far the Dark Voice's influence spreads. So to say you are fed up with the plot-holes is ridiculous. There is still far more to cover than one can realize.
Tassadar's sacrifice was probably the central point of the merging of both races. But what we didnt know in the first game, came known at the end of SC: BW - that there is some entity perverting what should have happened between the Zerg and Protoss (the merging, and rebirth of the Xel' Naga).
Raynor's Raiders' involvement most likely further warped the cycle and probably wasn't foreseen by the Xel' Naga. If the Protoss were to fight the Zerg alone in the first game, they would have not succeeded (given the Protoss' wary statement's during the final push of the first game: "Raynor, we will need all the help we can get" dialogue).
On June 14 2011 02:29 SeaSwift wrote: "But... you died!"
-Zeratul, sounding more corny than ever.
If death wasn't a big deal, why would Zeratul come out with that?
I'd determine from that statement that Zeratul believed that Tassadar had to use his whole being and Templar energies to completely remove himself from the physical word - actual death for a Protoss' mind, body, and soul.
On June 01 2011 14:34 OptimusYale wrote: maybe he's like yoda in Starwars, he's just part of the void.
I would've accepted a Psi Ghost explanation. That Tassadar has become more powerful than we can imagine. But the whole "I've never tasted death blah blah become something more" just begs more questions.
I will just pretend he's a ghost that comes and goes to give useful advice to the living. Like Obi Wan or Casper.
On June 01 2011 22:47 floor exercise wrote: "We're not sure about the original game" - SC2 development team, 2011
I facepalmed when I saw this in the write-up. Everything made sense after that though - that MUST be why the SC2 WoL plot was complete garbage. There was a point when I actually gave Blizzard credit for their storytelling abilities (SC1/BW/WC3/TFT). The only reason I played the singleplayer was to see how the plot developed; instead I felt forced to play through gimmicky campaign maps in order to advance a horrible story.
Or lack thereof. A lot of missions felt awfully pointless.
On June 02 2011 01:11 Chill wrote: I've given up on the Starcraft story. I enjoy playing the single player but I just don't believe in the storyline anymore.
Agreed... "herpderp, the Zerg aren't evil, they are controlled by something evil. They just happen to be horribly evil looking!" "BTW we brought Tassadar back from the dead for a 2 minute cutscene for uguys so u cood seehim again." I didn't play WoL campaign for a friggen Disney happy ending where Kerrigan becomes human again. I wanted SciFi political backstabbing damnit! lol
This is what I don't understand with people's perception of the zerg as evil. To me, the zerg are not evil or good. To me, the zerg are like a pest chewing up your crops. Except to the zerg, WE are the pest treading on their territory; they are like a pack of wolves.
So to me, Blizzard changing that the Overmind was manipulated/corrupted is a cheap excuse for why the zerg did all those "evil" things. Like they did with the Orcs and Undead. Very George Lucas-y. Awww in my old age I think Han shooting first seems too "evil" let's soften him up. -_- Han shooting first isn't evil or cutthroat or whatever. It's just smart. :-\
I guarantee that if they instead made an epic cinematic for the return of Tassadar then no one would have a problem with it. I feel like they let such a turn of events down by using a simple cut scene, there's just not much you can do with one.
Separately I'm o.k. with simple plot devices as long as the lore is complicated & the characters are interesting (which I feel is the case in sc)
On June 15 2011 05:17 NastyMarine wrote: Zeratul, in my opinion, when learning from the Overmind's Tendrils' he was able to cross with what the Overmind could absorb from Tassadar's High Templar energy upon his sacrifice. When Zasz was killed by Zeratul in the first campaign (SC1) he was able to connect with the Dark Templar and learn many a secrets hidden from his consciousness.
What we have learned from WoL is that the Xel' Naga used both Protoss' and Zerg's birth as a start-up to their reincarnation life cycle as they had lived out their predicted life span. The Overmind had a predetermined fate - to merge the Protoss and Zerg races to complete the cycle of the Xel' Naga.
Whats corrupting the cycle is the Dark Voice's involvement in:
1) Escaping imprisonment - This is further explained in the books. 2) Infiltrating SC personas - Also explained in the games and books. 3) Perverting the Cycle - Explained in Zeratul's SC: BW secret mission and WoL.
In some aspects you can say that Overmind is to the Zerg what Tassadar should be for Protoss - a focal spiritual point for the race to be commanded by. The Overmind unified the broods of the swarm and Tassadar, by his sacrifice, unified two tribes (DT and HT) that would not even bother intersecting without his involvement/death.
It is still unclear however, if the Dark Voice is suspect in foul play in terms of projecting images onto Zeratul during his Tendril vision's from the Overmind's corpse. We still have no clue how far the Dark Voice's influence spreads. So to say you are fed up with the plot-holes is ridiculous. There is still far more to cover than one can realize.
Blizzard, please hire this man to write all your lore from now on.
Is the dark templar saga canonical? If so, then Tassadar followed in Adun's footsteps then unlike Adun (the selfish prick) he returned to give Zeratul some help.
But chill got it right. After reading every book possible in the year waiting for WoL then... playing.. the campaign....
The lore is reprehensibly bad. Mengsk goes from a master manipulator to some bumbling mayor, Jim Raynor has (hair) become a superhero, Kerrigan goes from the most powerful force in the Sector to a herp derp can't catch a break, Tassadar (Then a skeleton pops out! Boo!) is a story for another time and the overmind just wanted a hug but the big bad dark voice made him do it.
Give me a fucking break. What happened to that marine staring up at the last ship off that rock before being torn to shreds by zerglings? Where did classic cutscenes like Thank god for nuclear fusion go? Did Blizzard have an aneurysm and think it has to convince us to like characters instead of just writing a good story and leaving it at that? Damnit guys I loved sc1/bw's story. I replayed the campaigns DOZENS of times. (Close to 100). All because that badass story just kept making me want to replay it.
Blizzard I am disappointed.
Sorry guys, I'm actually a little drunk and I've wanted to get this off my chest ever since beating the campaign 14 hours after the preloaded download was unlocked (11pm, night of release).
WHY THE HELL WAS CADE AT THAT MENGSK INTERVIEW? HE WAS ON THE HYPERION AT THE SAME TIME.
I hope the tassadar-zeratul archon has nothing to do with this... although both zeratul and tassadar have some abilities that the other protoss (high vs dark) would not normally have, it doesn't seem right that he is able to form an archon with zeratul after losing his body like that. I hope they don't do something cheesy like make teh void the final haven for protoss... I hope LotV explains this... Maybe they'll bring the Xel'Naga back in the story with the dark voice/voice in teh darkness/the darkest voice (whatever you call the 2 to 3 beings now). They have to compromise the storyline don;t they? HotS something cheesy will happen to the zerg... The 3 races uniting would be teh worst thing ever.
Gandalf, a character from fantasy novels, had an immense amount of lore connected to him.
Tassadar popped up with no explanation, spoke a tidbit then went away.
To compare: One is Shakespeare The other is pulling your dick out at a movie theater.
Blizzards storytelling is unjustifiably cheap and terrible. Every time I try to explain these feelings I write about two sentences, sigh, and walk away.
It is also worth pointing out that Tolkien's writing style is very outdated and nobody in the fantasy genre writes like that, and if they did, the book would likely not be published.
Tolkien is 'Tolkien', and benefits a) from the fact the book is old and b) has a huge amount of prestige attached to it.
In addition, many of the plot elements Tolkien used were at the time pretty original. Since then they've been done to death. This is the same problem SC2's plot has. it's using plot devices - and not very well - that have been done to death rather than being original, which BW largely was.
All of this adds up to SC2 not getting the slack that Tolkien gets. SC2 didn't invent any of the plot devices it uses - badly - it's just using other people's building blocks... badly.
I kinda liked the overmind not being evil actually. Made it more interesting. The whole evil vs good is tireing imo, but they scales of grey can be much more interesting. I like it when there's a real evil character, and after a while you grow to see things from their point of view, and start to agree with their goal but not their way of handling things kind of. Appearantly the xel naga are evil as fuck though, so I dunno. I'd like to see a more unorganized and animalistic zerg that just went to random planets instead of hunting down terran ones. Kind of like a force of nature.
Well, as much as I hate fearless, flawless heroes, I don't necessarily need to relate to the vilain. I like the bad guys better when they are understandable, with motivations and a clear plan, but they are still someone you know you have to fight. The Overmind wanted to perfect its Swarm, and the fact that it implied to genocide entire races was irrelevant. It made some sense from his point of view, but anyone in his right mind would see that as the horror it is. Kerrigan had reasons to betray everyone and seek dominance over the Sector, but she was a mass murderer just the same. On the other hand, a vilain that is not responsible for his actions is meh, especially with such a U turn coming out of the blue. A misguided character is fine, but not only was the Overmind not evil, he was also forced to commit all his crimes, and even tried to fight against it... He's not even an antagonist anymore.
I quit wow due to the rediculous lorelol of TBC, this sums it up nicely:
The first half of WoL was excellent, with Wrathgate rivaling the best Warcraft 3 moments. The mid-late game was fine, but I found the ending to plain suck. From the Argent Tournament in Icecrownto the "a part of Arthas was preventing the Scourge from destroying the world" nonsense (Overmind-ish already...), the only lore moment I liked in the entire instance was Saurfang's "I fulfill my promise". And that was after Blizzard said "we've spent a lot of time and thoughts for this ending".
Most of WoL was good, or even excellent. But the least I can say is that the final part of the game disappointed me.
On June 02 2011 01:11 Chill wrote: I've given up on the Starcraft story. I enjoy playing the single player but I just don't believe in the storyline anymore.
Ya I was actually just about to post something like this. They have really stretched the story and changed it far too much. I was actually really excited to see where the story would go in sc2, but it has been nothing but a disappointment for me at this point.
Using Tassadar simply to make Zeratul quickly believe the Overmind is a really cheap story telling trick. It doesn't seem like the starcraft universe has any consistency anymore, and even the tone has changed.
Oh well, at least it is fun to play... but the story is terrible.
There's a lot of talk about Tassadar's sacrifice being for nothing because of this development, but one could argue that the events of BW made that the case anyways
Look at what happened after the Overmind died. Yes, the Swarm was in complete disarray for a while, but Kerrigan quickly took full control, and the Zerg were as strong as ever. On top of this, she played her opponents against each other to kill the new Overmind, causing major damage to them as wel as anyone opposing her rule.
She then proceeds to kill Fenix and control Raszagal, the dark Templar matriarch, forcing Zeratul to kill one of the most valued members of the Protoss race. She then proceeds to systematically tear every single force of reckoning in the sector, including the entire UED Fleet. Things may well have been different if Tassadar was around to lead the Protoss.
On June 22 2011 00:33 Hassybaby wrote: There's a lot of talk about Tassadar's sacrifice being for nothing because of this development, but one could argue that the events of BW made that the case anyways
Look at what happened after the Overmind died. Yes, the Swarm was in complete disarray for a while, but Kerrigan quickly took full control, and the Zerg were as strong as ever. On top of this, she played her opponents against each other to kill the new Overmind, causing major damage to them as wel as anyone opposing her rule.
She then proceeds to kill Fenix and control Raszagal, the dark Templar matriarch, forcing Zeratul to kill one of the most valued members of the Protoss race. She then proceeds to systematically tear every single force of reckoning in the sector, including the entire UED Fleet. Things may well have been different if Tassadar was around to lead the Protoss.
something tells me we wont see tassadar again though. Time will tell.
On June 19 2011 15:02 Ktk wrote: So... If some of you guys will be mad if Tassadar comes back stronger, were you pissed when Gandalf came back too?
gandalf was pretty dumb too. but whatever. thats fantasy starcraft is science fic... oh wait. no it is fantasy now i guess.
Gandalf was also much more well done than this. Tolkien was the guy that made things cliche by being the first to use them. He was also a writer from a very different time, so the style is appropriate for then.
On June 19 2011 21:57 Probe1 wrote: Blizzards storytelling is unjustifiably cheap and terrible. Every time I try to explain these feelings I write about two sentences, sigh, and walk away.
The warcraft lore was actually pretty amazing (not including anything WoW related as everything there has been molded to fit gameplay and designed not to effect any of the lore).
The games were extremely deep and extensive and the books between were actually a good read, would recommend. (They formulated an entire world, multiple continents each with a huge amount of sub regions and all gave them characteristics, purpose and meaning.)
I personally haven't followed through starcraft's story/lore but I was under the impression that at its inception it was kind of just thrown together, and the storyline was more of an afterthought added in. I believe that was even stated when it was debuted and they redid the engine/gameplay and that was their sole focus.
Though it was better when Tassadar was a martyr for sure.
Edit:
Also yeah, the Blizzard plot devices thing is so true. Litterally 100% of Blizzards Villains have gone from good to evil/corropted/crazy:
Kerrigan, Mensk, Arthas, Sargeras, Illidan, Diablo 2's Wanderer, and in some ways Duran + Show Spoiler +
until you do the secret level and Duran finally becomes A REAL character rather than a Kerrigan repeat
.
There are others too but those are the main ones...
Malygos as well for example. Oh lol and Deathwing.
Oh and APPARENTLY not even the goddamn overmind was really evil.
God I forgot how much thinking about Blizzard storylines piss me off lately. Everything after WC3 has been so lame in turns of story.
But WoTLK was pretty cool in my opinion!
well dude along with the WoW analogy, some people say the lore is getting "convoluted" and stuff and to a degree they're probably right but I would say it's simply formula.
Consider that TBC was retarded and made no sense. Consider that WotLK was exactly counter to this, including story elements and characters from 3 separate warcraft books, the meaningful resolution to 4 of the most significant conflicts in warcraft history, and the best art and questing of any expansion. I contend that blizzard effectively had to break out the big guns for the express purpose of making up for tbc, which wasn't that great of an expansion compared to. (although i wish they would stop killing the damn characters off... this is warcraft not adventurecraft)
my point being blizzard typically has a very logical and intelligent response, and I have faith HotS won't be as bad as WoL seemed to be... and at the very least the flow of the story will be a bit clearer.
On June 22 2011 11:25 ghostunit wrote: I would summarize most of Warcraft 3's theme as "Affirmative Action for the Horde"
Only if you remove the first two campaigns and the last one. And the three regular campaigns of The Frozen Throne, too.
The warcraft lore was actually pretty amazing (not including anything WoW related as everything there has been molded to fit gameplay and designed not to effect any of the lore).
There were good things in some of the WoW games. We've talked about Lich King, but in the original game we also had Taelan Fordring's death, the team-up between the Argent Dawn and the Scarlet Crusade for an assault on Naxxramas, Onyxia's guards attacking Bolvar Fordragon and Stormwind Keep... These were all good lore moments.
I don't like choosing side-missions. Sorry but im one of those people that just doesn't want choices in story telling. Side-missions take away the focus from the main plot. Choosing different ones, for different outcomes.. come on, whats wrong with story telling like any book - Chapter by chapter, not "go to chapter 14/15 and if you read 14 then skip to 18 instead of 19 afterwards".
Linear storytelling, its what good books/movies and games do. The WoL story could be so much deeper and richer if it was more about the mainplot and less about Tosh/Hansen/Nova. Or release a side-mission campaign with these characters besides the main story. Now i had to save hansen's people for upgrades/money to continue the mainstory.. That was tedious and hardly interesting.
On June 23 2011 05:07 Spacely wrote: My theory is Tassadar became a Hybrid.
I'm completely convinced that the Dark Voice is Tassadar. If the Xelnaga are a combination of the zerg and protoss, then it makes sense that when the pinnacle of the zerg was hit by the power of the most powerful templar that they could have merged and become a true xelnaga.
The twist then is that Kerrigan has the advantage of being Zerg-Protoss AND Human, making her the only one which can defeat him.
Surprised no ones really wondering about where Duran is at, that backstabbing jerkoff just disappeared after that secret mission in SC1. If i wanted them to do a character properly, probably be Duran, I didn't mind Mira Han in the story, although the entire story line seemed a bit too... space opera-y like they watched Star Wars beforehand and decided write something.
EPT
