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On May 02 2024 19:58 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2024 16:55 WombaT wrote:
I mean Liverpool and City have made multiple CL finals in this rough epoch to be fair.
Also unbeknownst to me prior to investigation when it comes to coefficient calculation they use individual match results as opposed to tie results, hence Dortmund got the Bundesliga over the line yesterday despite it still being a tie they haven’t won.
Not really making a point with that but did find it interesting nonetheless! There seems to be actually a constellation that when Dortmund wins the CL trophy, a sixth slot would go to Germany Show nested quote +Dortmund are certain of a slot along with Bayer Leverkusen, Bayern Munich, Stuttgart and Leipzig. If Dortmund finish fifth and win the Champions League, the team who finish sixth – currently Eintracht Frankfurt – would also qualify. https://www.theguardian.com/football/article/2024/may/02/dortmund-win-ends-premier-league-hope-extra-champions-league-spot-bundesliga-five
That is great! Farmers League my ass, shows that lots of money cannot always buy you the success.
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I smell a Real Madrid - Borussia Dortmund final. Real at home in CL... I don't see Bayern doing it.
Dortmund on the other hand will somehow prevail with lots of enthusiasm and temp football.
That Dortmund enthusiasm will then be dismantled by a cold, caluclating Real machine in the finals.
+ Show Spoiler +Making predictions without any real up to date football knowledge, based solely on macro trends from the past is fun.
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On May 02 2024 15:14 WombaT wrote:
It feels a bit odd to me, just off-hand I don’t recall non-Bayern German sides being particularly competitive in the CL for quite a while
Italy get an extra one too from what I can gather.
I mean it’s cool but haven’t they previously doled out/removed spots/automatic qualification based on a historic rolling coefficient rather than based on a single season’s?
I suppose that’s more deciding how to award spots to different leagues in general, whereas this is to accommodate the format change?
I'm not 100% sure, but apparently the current season is now the main (only?) determining factor for those "extra" spots in the next season. Whereas in the past, it was more like an average of the 5 previous (i.e.the results of the current season didnt even have any relevance for the next season). So the results of Bayern/Dortmund/Leverkusen should be what's making the difference now.
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Northern Ireland27228 Posts
On May 02 2024 21:40 Mafe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2024 15:14 WombaT wrote:
It feels a bit odd to me, just off-hand I don’t recall non-Bayern German sides being particularly competitive in the CL for quite a while
Italy get an extra one too from what I can gather.
I mean it’s cool but haven’t they previously doled out/removed spots/automatic qualification based on a historic rolling coefficient rather than based on a single season’s?
I suppose that’s more deciding how to award spots to different leagues in general, whereas this is to accommodate the format change? I'm not 100% sure, but apparently the current season is now the main (only?) determining factor for those "extra" spots in the next season. Whereas in the past, it was more like an average of the 5 previous (i.e.the results of the current season didnt even have any relevance for the next season). So the results of Bayern/Dortmund/Leverkusen should be what's making the difference now.
Only, as far as I’ve gathered
Which does make more sense if we’re looking at where the extra spots went
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No one wants the Bayern job. How do the bayern bosses feel about that?
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Northern Ireland27228 Posts
On May 02 2024 22:44 sharkie wrote:
No one wants the Bayern job. How do the bayern bosses feel about that?
Maybe they shouldn’t have chewed up and spat out both Nageslman and poor Tommy Tuchs then?
Ragnick has presumably learned from his Man United experience, if they want him for his club-building skills that he’s got a record with just offer him that kind of gig.
Otherwise he’ll just end up getting all the shit and short-termism that comes with being the forward face of the club, with little chance to actually reshape things. All he’d be doing is swapping a soulless, directionless, disjointed commercial machine for one dominated by ex club legends with giant egos
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Bayern has a problem at management level, there are too many egos there to let any coach work and create a good team. Also too many egos and too much power at the player side as well (Kimmich, Neuer, Müller).
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On May 02 2024 05:46 WombaT wrote:
Best I’ve seen Jadon Sancho play in a fair while!
It's a shame he can't play like that on a rainy night any game day in Stoke England.
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On May 02 2024 23:16 gTank wrote:
Bayern has a problem at management level, there are too many egos there to let any coach work and create a good team. Also too many egos and too much power at the player side as well (Kimmich, Neuer, Müller).
That and there is always the "Kloppo might come next season"-fear. So it's a short term arrangement anyway.
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On May 02 2024 21:40 Mafe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2024 15:14 WombaT wrote:
It feels a bit odd to me, just off-hand I don’t recall non-Bayern German sides being particularly competitive in the CL for quite a while
Italy get an extra one too from what I can gather.
I mean it’s cool but haven’t they previously doled out/removed spots/automatic qualification based on a historic rolling coefficient rather than based on a single season’s?
I suppose that’s more deciding how to award spots to different leagues in general, whereas this is to accommodate the format change? I'm not 100% sure, but apparently the current season is now the main (only?) determining factor for those "extra" spots in the next season. Whereas in the past, it was more like an average of the 5 previous (i.e.the results of the current season didnt even have any relevance for the next season). So the results of Bayern/Dortmund/Leverkusen should be what's making the difference now.
This is just because of the reshaping of CL. After that it's the normal "5 year average" again. Lucky for Germany and Italy.
Historically Bayern and Dortmund were pretty successful in CL and mostly one other odd team in EL
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I got a question: are English teams/players arrogant when they are playing European competition? Do they think because they are playing in the financially biggest league in the world they are leagues above the rest of Europe? Liverpool, Arsenal, Aston Villa yesterday - they all didnt turn up for their games. Arsenal had the biggest opponent yes but this season they should have beaten Bayern
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United States10529 Posts
On May 03 2024 23:32 sharkie wrote:
I got a question: are English teams/players arrogant when they are playing European competition? Do they think because they are playing in the financially biggest league in the world they are leagues above the rest of Europe? Liverpool, Arsenal, Aston Villa yesterday - they all didnt turn up for their games. Arsenal had the biggest opponent yes but this season they should have beaten Bayern
I think experience can carry teams through these tournaments. Arsenal don't have the experience or "fear factor" when playing in UCL right now, especially not to Bayern who embarrassed them last time.
Liverpool, idk honestly. I think we just spiraled after the FA cup loss to United and also definitely a bit of disrespect from our players who seemed like they were half assing the first leg.
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Northern Ireland27228 Posts
I think the English teams just suffer in Europe due to the competitive nature of the league
There’s quite a lot of rotation in who qualifies, especially for the Europa League/Conference spots. And quite often a team in the Europa is in the mix for the Champions League too, which takes priority.
Football is football, but for whatever reason it often does seem that adjusting to European competition is a thing as well. Whether it’s the extra fixtures, different styles of teams and refereeing, intimidating atmospheres or whatever.
So Villa are both newbies, as well as qualifying to the Champions League being the bigger prize for them, and though it’s almost signed and sealed at Tottenham’s expense, it’s not quite 100%
Newcastle were actually pretty good this year in the toughest group and I dislike the club for obvious reasons but I think they were pretty much robbed by a daft penalty as well.
Liverpool had a shocker against Atalanta but they’re in for the league title as their priority.
Brighton had a decent run but they’re just not having as good a season all-round as last time out.
Arsenal and Man City were IMO the better sides in their ties but lost. No shame there, it happens at the pinnacle of European football.
To take a counter example, West Ham have had a couple of years qualifying for Europe and I think you see the difference with a team that;
A - Has a bit of experience
B - Aren’t at the level to win a CL spot via the league
I think it’s a mix that the teams good enough to cake the Europa League either don’t find themselves in it, or when they are it’s rarely something that’s prioritised. And the teams that qualify for Europe below that either don’t do it every season and lack experience, or have their sights set on the Champions League qualification via the league.
England doesn’t really have its Sevilla equivalent(s), good enough to qualify for the Europa League every year, not good enough to push for the league title or CL qualification consistently. I think if the league was more consistent and delivered such a scenario more often you’d see better English performance
If we’re looking at the last 4 of the Europa League, you’re seeing an excellent Leverkusen and 3 other teams who kinda tick those boxes. Atalanta have a bunch of European experience lately but aren’t challenging for leagues, same with Roma. Marseilles are in Europe most years in some capacity but are in a similar boat.
As neutral fan I’ve found it a pity that English sides don’t prioritise the non-CL European competitions more, but it’s been like this for a while and this afflicts domestic competitions as well. Teams in the relegation battle or push for Europe frequently don’t put out their strongest teams in the cups to try and actually win something, which is a pity IMO
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
Klopp said today exactly what Wombat put basically. English premier league is best league in the world, but suffers from its own success because of the scheduling.
Seeing Aston Villa lost last night it means no English team will be in a European final, we should ask do we decrease the intensity for the players? If no English team is in a European final, have we underperformed? The PL is best in the world, not overrated, the players [overworked]. Someone needs to help the people, cut off one game. Two more CL games next season and you [can] cut off League Cup semi two legs. Everyone has a reason to say we cannot do it but we cannot sort it all the time. I had a chat with TNT - a television show I will never watch again! - and they said they pay us to play football but I don't see it that way, football pays them. You have to become a part of football again and not just the squeezer, that is some advice from an old man on the way out. People can survive without match-days from time to time. City, Arsenal, us out in the quarter-finals, not a reflection of quality but that we couldn't deliver on the day. Other countries have good teams, of course. When I speak about it people think it is because of the last game, no. It's not. It's a general problem. They dare Thursday-Sunday, Weds-Sat 12:30pm, it is a crime. I was waiting for Amnesty International to go to them!
I would like to be part of that meeting when someone says 'Liverpool 12:30pm' and the whole room bursts into laughter. I would love to be there. In the whole world we have the quickest turnaround between games but they are still happy and collect subscribers, you can take me off. If they are ever after a pundit, I speak English I could do it..."
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Sounds like a poor excuse. La Liga and Serie A have the same amount of games. The only difference is the league cup. The premier league clubs should be most able to deal with the large amount of games in today's football with their massive budgets.
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On May 04 2024 14:18 RvB wrote:
Sounds like a poor excuse. La Liga and Serie A have the same amount of games. The only difference is the league cup. The premier league clubs should be most able to deal with the large amount of games in today's football with their massive budgets.
Their budget is also used on the premium english clubs pay.
But experience is the biggest factor. Nobody believes Porto is better than arsenal but Porto is in cl every year the players are very used to it. "Arsenal should have beaten Bayern" doesnt hold as arsenal barely got past the worst Porto team of the last 10y.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
No again the leagues help these teams out when the games go deeper. Lets take Olympiacos, villa played Chelsea before the home game in a crazy 2-2 game which they had to play there full 11 as they are chasing champions league. Olympiacos got a whole week off from league football and will again for the second leg lol.
Klopp says as well, for example they are playing champions league games on a wednesday to play at 12:30 on a saturday, no other league does that.
We play more games as a fact, but its also the fact that the league does not help a team out in Europe by moving a game to a Friday before a midweek game and then a sunday or something, they don't even bother to help.
Also, playing against a lower half team in Bundesliga/Serie A/La Liga is not like playing against the same in England! Teams like Palace are taking the players from those sides to play for them for example.
So yes his point is valid and a worthy issue, what the premier league need to do is to start adjusting games around Europe, especially now the champions league is an even bigger format with more games.
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On May 04 2024 18:45 Pandemona wrote:
No again the leagues help these teams out when the games go deeper. Lets take Olympiacos, villa played Chelsea before the home game in a crazy 2-2 game which they had to play there full 11 as they are chasing champions league. Olympiacos got a whole week off from league football and will again for the second leg lol.
Klopp says as well, for example they are playing champions league games on a wednesday to play at 12:30 on a saturday, no other league does that.
We play more games as a fact, but its also the fact that the league does not help a team out in Europe by moving a game to a Friday before a midweek game and then a sunday or something, they don't even bother to help.
Also, playing against a lower half team in Bundesliga/Serie A/La Liga is not like playing against the same in England! Teams like Palace are taking the players from those sides to play for them for example.
So yes his point is valid and a worthy issue, what the premier league need to do is to start adjusting games around Europe, especially now the champions league is an even bigger format with more games.
Villa also has 4 times the budget of Olympiacos. It's hard for me to take the excuse about schedules seriously when the gap is that large. Looking through the fixtures of Borussia Dortmund and Real Madrid I also see similar tight schedules. Your last points I partly agree with. The Premier League is more competitive than the Bundesliga and Serie A (but I think La Liga is similar) and adjusting the schedule more around the European tournaments makes sense.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
Yes if you don't take my first points then fair enough that is more opinionated, but like Klopp said TNT the broadcaster point black said to him that they pay for his players to play basically and they want them to play more lol.
So yeah they need to do something, maybe make the season longer by a week or two so more breaks can happen, maybe they could add a full week for the end of the season, so that there is a complete break before last game so teams can make up a game there.
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EPT
