EPT2021 - 2022 Football Thread - Page 67
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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zeo
Serbia6334 Posts
On November 06 2021 02:31 zeo wrote: Serbian media talking about a leak that Messi is going to win this years Ballon d'Or... Like, what? Really? So the leak turned out to be true. What a joke, thought it was too stupid to be true when I read it | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26225 Posts
Lewa has been the outstanding candidate, I’d say he can consider himself robbed twice in a row now. It’s otherwise a pretty solid ranking outside of number 1 and 2, but Lewa not winning really does leave a rather sour taste Depends how people are voting, I could definitely see a splitting of the votes where the more considered voters splintered across Lewa, Benzema, Jorginho and Kante etc, which opened up a pathway for those who were set on voting Messi and Ronaldo. If I remember correctly folks vote for their top 3, with extra points for the order, it’s conceivable that basically everyone had Messi somewhere there, but there was variation as to the other two names and he snuck in that way. Aside from anything else, it’s a bit strange that it’s voted for ostensibly for performances over the calendar year than just the season, don’t know about you guys but I struggle to mentally cut off and consider the second half of last season and the first half of this Ultimately, as I’ve said many times the award has to either be who is the best footballer individually, or who’s been outstanding and impactful in a team(s) that’s accomplished great things. As ever the final placing is seemingly a mix of the two Also, could this have some kind of bearing? Article is paywalled unfortunately On Friday, Ferre told the New York Times: "Ronaldo has only one ambition, and that is to retire with more Ballons d'Or than Messi - and I know that because he has told me." Ronaldo responded on social media, saying: "Pascal Ferre lied, he used my name to promote himself and to promote the publication he works for. "It is unacceptable that the person responsible for awarding such a prestigious prize could lie in this way, in absolute disrespect for someone who has always respected France Football and the Ballon d'Or. | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6261 Posts
On November 30 2021 08:34 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: Yep. Messi who has done jack all this season is a joke. He scored 40 goals and and had 16 assists in a very weak Barcelona and he won the Copa. Lewandowski might've been better but it's not by that much and saying Messi did Jack shit is massively exaggerated. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14094 Posts
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gTank
Austria2601 Posts
On December 01 2021 01:51 RvB wrote: He scored 40 goals and and had 16 assists in a very weak Barcelona and he won the Copa. Lewandowski might've been better but it's not by that much and saying Messi did Jack shit is massively exaggerated. This, besides, people forget that he did absolutely Jack shit for the polish national team (Lewandowski I mean). Also, the Bayern squad is way better than the barca squad so the numbers of Messi might weight more? | ||
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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
On December 01 2021 06:45 gTank wrote: This, besides, people forget that he did absolutely Jack shit for the polish national team (Lewandowski I mean). Also, the Bayern squad is way better than the barca squad so the numbers of Messi might weight more? WTF are you smoking? UEFA Nations League Autumn 2020: 2 goals in 4 games (Tough it could be mentioned that 2 of those games were against Italy in the midst of their undefeated streak...) WC Quals 2021: 8 goals in 8 games Euros 2021: 3 goals in 3 games Like even if you ignore all the minor competitions... Are you really blaming Lewa for him only scoring 3 out of the 4 Polish goals this Euros (in the 3 games they had, because they had no defense at all in that tournament)? Just for reference: Only Ronaldo managed to average more than a goal per game at the Euros. Messi scored 4 in 7 at the Copa. But Lewa did Jack shit.... Yeah... sure thing. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28736 Posts
Looking at the top 5 leagues (england spain italy germany france), there was a bigger gap between Lewandowski's goal+assist average per game (1.66) and number #2 (Haaland (1.18), Messi was #3 (1.11), Mbappe #4, Kane #5) than the gap was between #2 and #50. Barcelona had a poor season but they scored 85 goals (fewer than Bayern's 99, but not a world of difference). Messi's 30 goals+9 assists were from 35 games (Lewandowski's 41 goal+7 assist from 29 games). Not like the Spanish league was better than the German one either. The only real explanations are a) Messi got it for name recognition b) national team performance weighted really heavily (imo quite unfair towards a Polish player) - Lewa's performance for Bayern was leagues better than any other offensive player last season. Stuff like this mostly gives credence to the notion that it's a meaningless award, imo. | ||
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Faruko
Chile34173 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26225 Posts
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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/oct/29/nigeria-toughest-league-win-away Especially the second place in that year was amazing: 26-0 goals at home, 4-19 goals away. But I remember I originally stumbled upon it, because I searched for the most equal leagues in the world. Guess what, it was Nigeria, because everyone wins at home and loses away... that makes things very equal. | ||
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Twisted
Netherlands13554 Posts
1. Lewandowski should've gotten it in 2020. 2. Messi is held to a (way) higher standard. 3. People value first half of this season way too high because it's freshest in memory. Prizes are won in the second half of the season. Adding to point 3: even Mo Salah came into contention in a lot of people's minds because he has played well for 2 months, even though he didn't do much (I think partly due to injuries? not sure) in the important half of the season. Messi isn't the type of character (introvert and most likely highly sensitive) to adjust fast at PSG (different language, different country, family has to adjust, kids might be homesick for Spain which puts a strain on your psyche etc.) and was plagued with injuries in the first couple of months of the current season. I'm sure from now on he'll improve on those numbers when he (and his family) gets used to living in France. I think the 'human' aspect is easily overlooked when players have to adjust to a new competition. Ronaldo for example has a very confident, bordering to narcissistic, nature so it's easier for him to adjust to new surroundings so naturally he'll perform better when changing clubs. Numbers-wise, Messi had a subpar year compared to his standard of 5-10 years ago. Naturally due to age his numbers will decline. Compared to the norm though, his performance was nothing but stellar in 2021. Lewandowski overachieved the last couple of years (in a well gelled squad in Bayern) and Messi has been underachieving the last couple of years compared to his standard (in a shitty squad). Thus the sentiment a lot of people have, is that Messi has had a shit year. The truth is though, that he overachieved with a poor Barça squad. They were 4 matchdays from winning the title (if I remember correctly, they just had to win against Atletico to reach #1 spot) and won the Copa del Rey. In Dutch forums people have been posting statistics to back this up. Not sure if these are correct but I'll assume so: ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/iTRD2WL.png) The only metric where Lewa trumps Messi is goals. And that's not weird considering Lewa plays a pure striker while Messi sits mostly in midfield. Add to the fact that Messi won his first international trophy (besides youth trophies) after losing a final 4 times (which is unlucky in its own right) carrying Argentina to the final with 4 goals 5 assists, I think he damn well deserves it. Based on these arguments I'd say Messi won fair and square this year. Yes he isn't as dominant as he was 5-10 years ago, but he's still the best player on this earth and that's where the award should go to. Disclaimer: I'm a huge Messi fanboy, but I think I backed up my arguments pretty well. It annoys me that the sportspress is of such low quality. Always the opportunism where they only value the last few games. This award is about 2021. Messi was the best in 2021. He was not the best in september-november of 2021, that was Mo Salah. He was top 10 for 2021, like the voting showed. | ||
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sharkie
Austria18572 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28736 Posts
Lewa hasn't overachieved in the past two seasons, he's hit a higher level than he used to have. Those aren't the same.  Messi even agreed that Lewa should have gotten it. Lewa won the 'forward of the year' award during the same ceremony, how can he then lose the best player award to another forward? (I'd actually be totally fine with Kanté winning!) | ||
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Dingodile
4139 Posts
The same can be said to Benzema, since Ronaldo left. I am sure both would have scored 100+ UCL goals aswell. | ||
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Twisted
Netherlands13554 Posts
On December 01 2021 17:47 Liquid`Drone wrote: What are the dates for those numbers? Lewa has scored 64 goals (so far) in 2021. If it's just bundesliga+cl games, 49 goals in 37 matches. For Messi I got 41 goals in 54 matches for 2021, not 40 in 49. Seems like some arbitrarily defined time period to make Messi's numbers look better from my glance. Lewa hasn't overachieved in the past two seasons, he's hit a higher level than he used to have. Those aren't the same. Messi even agreed that Lewa should have gotten it. Lewa won the 'forward of the year' award during the same ceremony, how can he then lose the best player award to another forward? (I'd actually be totally fine with Kanté winning!) Numbers are likely skewed, but the other metrics show that yes, Lewandowski is a better goal scorer but Messi scores better at every other facet. Maybe the numbers are based on when the voting process ended and well, Messi hasn't impressed in the new season (based on a myriad of reasons). Messi didn't agree that Lewandowski should've won in 2021, he made a statement that he should've gotten it in 2020 (link). How the organization handled everything isn't great of course. How they give him an award for best forward, seemingly a consolation prize, isn't the best decision ever. Whatever definition you want to give it doesn't matter. Lewa is performing better than he used to, Messi performs worse than he used to. Whether you call that overachieving or hitting a higher level is just defining things differently. That doesn't mean that Messi is less of a player than Lewa, it just means that the gap has closed to a certain degree. And Messi is held to a higher standard, because even when he was still in his prime, he lost the award to Modric (solely based on team performance because he won CL with Madrid and WC final with Croatia, I'm really glad Jorginho didn't win it). You're only responding to the numbers, not so much on any other arguments. I think the main reasons for the outrage are outlined in my previous post, with emphasis on reason 1 and 2. By the way, I would've been fine with Lewa winning it as well. Just don't understand the outrage of Messi winning it. It's pretty damn close. If Messi had been performing for PSG the last few months (made some more goals especially) than I think it would've been less close. | ||
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Twisted
Netherlands13554 Posts
On December 01 2021 17:31 sharkie wrote: Haha for years I had to listen how Messi couldnt win anything because of how shitty the Argentina squad was and now his fanboys are even saying how bad the Barca squad is to overvalue Messi. :D ? stop trolling | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26225 Posts
This is my issue with the Ballon D’Or being timed the way it is, should be across the season. It’s too hard to mentally patch a half season and a half season together. You’ll always get a bit of recency bias, but at least you’d be getting that when the big titles have been won, rather than when everything’s in play Salah for example has been incredible for the last few months, and from memory pretty good the second half of last season too, albeit in a not great Liverpool season. But I’m hearing people saying he was robbed too My second issue is what is the award for? Best individual footballer, or outstanding individual performances as part of a high-achieving team? Do intangibles like leadership and being clutch come into it? If it’s the former you can make a decent argument that Messi should have won basically every year, probably going back to the more all-action United version of Ronaldo If it’s the latter, well try to stick to that, albeit it’s bloody difficult with two once in a lifetime talents plying their trade. Looking back there’s not a huge amount I’d say was egregious. Henry could have won in 2003 (and one of those players who cumulatively deserved one) but Nedved was a monster in Juve’s season and in Europe, so wasn’t exactly undeserving. 2006 I feel was too weighted to the World Cup, yes it should be an important factor, and even if you are doing that it was arguably Zidane’s best tournament for France, despite his moment of madness. 2010 Sneijder was the main man in a treble winning club side and got Holland to a World Cup Final but was merely fourth, and Modric’s win really felt the collective were actively seeking to give the award to someone other than Messi or Ronaldo and he lucked out. If Xavi and Iniesta weren’t an inseparable duo, and Barca/Spain had only one of them paired with a merely very good player, their chances of winning such an award would have been higher. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8794 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On December 01 2021 21:31 evilfatsh1t wrote: ive seen a similar table to twisteds which showed pretty much the same numbers. those stats were apparently the stats for this year up til the end of the voting for the ballon dor. if the stats are correct then you cant really argue against messis victory. besides, the ballon dor isnt an award that should only judge goals It almost has to be, or otherwise be hugely weighted towards the CL/international tournaments. Or else hire a ton of actual judges to cover leagues specifically to log performances There’s just too much football going on to accurately gauge everything, especially the intangible stuff. Jorginho and Kante in the flesh are more impressive in the flesh, the former is constantly strolling and organising the team’s shape, and the latter you really see what he does in all those times he’s out of camera shot. Getting an accurate gauge of the sheer amount of football played and who’s done what has got to be a near impossible task given how the voting is structured currently | ||
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