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On June 13 2017 13:33 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2017 13:16 BlackJack wrote:On June 13 2017 13:04 cLutZ wrote:
I dont dislike Lebron, just his cult. I think that he was playing into Golden State's hands at the end with a lot of his scoring where they were saying, "we just wont give up 3 on this possession". Was it 8 pts or 12 points I'm not 100% sure, but I know tomorrow people with Blue Checkmarks on Twitter will be telling me about his 41 points and pretending he didn't play inefficient basketball in the 2nd half of this game. I'm a Lebron fan, my problem is with Lebron's media conglomerate. Inefficient basketball? What are you talking about? 11:29 Missed Layup 7:50 Turnaround Shot Missed 7:18 Drive, Made 6:43 3 Pt Missed (IMO this is the end of the game) 6:13 Dunk Made 5:32 Layup made 4:03 Turnover 3:38 Layup 2:30 Layup 1:55 Missed Shot 0:36 Layup Overall he was 0/3 in the 2nd half on 3s and 1/4 on shots in the 4th where GSW's were concerned with defending as much as not giving up fouls.
Overall he is 20 pts on 10/15 shooting in the 2nd half. The fact that you're trying to preemptively call out LeBron fans for twisting the narrative while at the same time trying you're trying to twist the narrative by calling 10/15 "inefficient" is just perfect. Hate it to break it to you but everyone is inefficient when you're only counting their misses.
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On June 13 2017 13:54 Twinkle Toes wrote:
Lebron is an all-time great, objectively top 5 of all time. But these finals, against teams of equal pedigree to Cavs, have shown that Lebron is only average-good on defense (he is great on chasedowns and help d's though) and he is really not clutch. He has the tendency to wilt under pressure. Without Irving, Lebron can't do it, and couldnt have done it last year.
This shit is so tired. By every possible way people define clutch that I've seen referenced(super late game like last 10s/5s/1s; last 2 minutes of 'close' game, last 5 minutes of close game, etc) LeBron as at worst solidly above average, and at best one of the greatest ever. This narrative largely died in the first Spurs series(everyone loves to mention Ray's shot coming off a LeBron miss but ignore the 3 he hit the previous possession and all the other shit he did that whole 4th quarter, and then the following game 7).
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The problem with Lebron's "clutch-ness" against Golden State is that he is playing 46 minutes in close games against a very fast paced team. He doesn't have a problem in the clutch against teams that play slower and don't force him to expend all that energy just keeping the game close. All that movement defending Golden State and all the movement necessary to score against their defense is going to tire people out, especially at the pace they play at.
He does have a case of the yips at the free throw line this season. Tim Duncan also had the same problem for a few years early in his career.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37099 Posts
Well... Gratz to KD. He finally got that championship ring he wanted so badly. GG GSW.
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a bit of yap about Thompson's shooting this year ... it was indeed the worst playoff shooting performance of his career. his #s this year are such a small amount below his career average it doesn't add up to a hill of beans though. the guy played very well on offense and defense.
On June 13 2017 15:10 andrewlt wrote:
The problem with Lebron's "clutch-ness" against Golden State is that he is playing 46 minutes in close games against a very fast paced team. He doesn't have a problem in the clutch against teams that play slower and don't force him to expend all that energy just keeping the game close. All that movement defending Golden State and all the movement necessary to score against their defense is going to tire people out, especially at the pace they play at.
He does have a case of the yips at the free throw line this season. Tim Duncan also had the same problem for a few years early in his career.
good points in this post.
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Grats to Curry/Klay/Dray/Kerr and company.
KD got his ring I suppose.
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On June 13 2017 14:57 red_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2017 13:54 Twinkle Toes wrote:
Lebron is an all-time great, objectively top 5 of all time. But these finals, against teams of equal pedigree to Cavs, have shown that Lebron is only average-good on defense (he is great on chasedowns and help d's though) and he is really not clutch. He has the tendency to wilt under pressure. Without Irving, Lebron can't do it, and couldnt have done it last year.
LeBron as at worst solidly above average, and at best one of the greatest ever.
As a help defender, yes he is great. But as a 1on1 defender, he is below average against his equals, when it matters. Sure he can bully IT, Wall, and even Curry. But Kawhi, KD, and Harden all shit on him as a primary defender. Even old man Kobe schooled him torn achilles and all. This is verifiable stat-supported fact that we can all look up. End even on motion-defense he gets lost at times. The 17-2 run happened with him on the court. The crucial momentum points were all errors he was directly involved in - 2 iggy dunks, switch on livingston, kd separation, and all of them gave GSW the slim glimmer of daylight they need to grab the championship once and for all.
On June 13 2017 14:57 red_ wrote:
This narrative largely died in the first Spurs series(everyone loves to mention Ray's shot coming off a LeBron miss but ignore the 3 he hit the previous possession and all the other shit he did that whole 4th quarter, and then the following game 7).
You mean the time when Kyrie went god-mode when Lebron was ready to surrender the series. As a Lebron fan myself, I understand the reason why you say these things, but I tend to be more indifferent and detached when discussing James' greatness. There are great stuff about him, as well as not so great stuff. I cannot emphasize one while ignoring the other.
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On June 13 2017 15:10 andrewlt wrote:
The problem with Lebron's "clutch-ness" against Golden State is that he is playing 46 minutes in close games against a very fast paced team. He doesn't have a problem in the clutch against teams that play slower and don't force him to expend all that energy just keeping the game close. All that movement defending Golden State and all the movement necessary to score against their defense is going to tire people out, especially at the pace they play at.
He does have a case of the yips at the free throw line this season. Tim Duncan also had the same problem for a few years early in his career.
Yeah, thats a huge factor, I agree. JVG also mentioned again and again how Lebron seems to be too self-conscious about being a self-appointed playmaker that he often passes on crucial plays when he should take them. He has all game to be playmaker/scorer all he wants, but when the game is on the line, if he wants to be undisputed GOAT, he has to take the shot, especially since he can most of the times.
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On June 13 2017 15:50 Twinkle Toes wrote:
As a help defender, yes he is great. But as a 1on1 defender, he is below average against his equals, when it matters. Sure he can bully IT, Wall, and even Curry. But Kawhi, KD, and Harden all shit on him as a primary defender. Even old man Kobe schooled him torn achilles and all. This is verifiable stat-supported fact that we can all look up. End even on motion-defense he gets lost at times. The 17-2 run happened with him on the court. The crucial momentum points were all errors he was directly involved in - 2 iggy dunks, switch on livingston, kd separation, and all of them gave GSW the slim glimmer of daylight they need to grab the championship once and for all.
outside of last year, for the past 10 years the East has been worse than the West by a wide margin. Thus, its difficult to assess just how truly meaningful LBJ's total domination of the first 3 rounds of the playoffs are.
that said, when you use stuff like adjusted plus/minus which takes into account strength of opposition... Adjusted Plus/Minus stats excel in situations where you have giant amounts of data... LBJ has been one of the top 3 players in the NBA for many years and sometimes #1. When he is #1 he is slightly better than the #2 guy. He has never thoroughly dominated the entire league the way he has sometimes dominated the 1st 3 rounds of the eastern playoffs.
The kind of antiseptic analysis i'm providing often gets shouted down by both the LBJ-haters and the LBJ-cultists ( new term i learned on here). IMO, based on the Eye-Test plus all encompassing stats like Adjusted Plus Minus I'd say LBJ has been the best player in the world by a narrow margin.
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8751 Posts
Congrats to GSW and KD. And to all the people who said KD shouldn't try to win (ie he shouldn't have joined the Warriors) because he should take personal responsibility for the league's parity, I say one last time to you, what the fuck?
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On June 13 2017 22:06 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2017 15:50 Twinkle Toes wrote:
As a help defender, yes he is great. But as a 1on1 defender, he is below average against his equals, when it matters. Sure he can bully IT, Wall, and even Curry. But Kawhi, KD, and Harden all shit on him as a primary defender. Even old man Kobe schooled him torn achilles and all. This is verifiable stat-supported fact that we can all look up. End even on motion-defense he gets lost at times. The 17-2 run happened with him on the court. The crucial momentum points were all errors he was directly involved in - 2 iggy dunks, switch on livingston, kd separation, and all of them gave GSW the slim glimmer of daylight they need to grab the championship once and for all.
outside of last year, for the past 10 years the East has been worse than the West by a wide margin. Thus, its difficult to assess just how truly meaningful LBJ's total domination of the first 3 rounds of the playoffs are. that said, when you use stuff like adjusted plus/minus which takes into account strength of opposition... Adjusted Plus/Minus stats excel in situations where you have giant amounts of data... LBJ has been one of the top 3 players in the NBA for many years and sometimes #1. When he is #1 he is slightly better than the #2 guy. He has never thoroughly dominated the entire league the way he has sometimes dominated the 1st 3 rounds of the eastern playoffs. The kind of antiseptic analysis i'm providing often gets shouted down by both the LBJ-haters and the LBJ-cultists ( new term i learned on here). IMO, based on the Eye-Test plus all encompassing stats like Adjusted Plus Minus I'd say LBJ has been the best player in the world by a narrow margin.
I hear you. Plus/Minus however glosses over specific instances over general data average. Case in point, which is what Im driving at, there are at least three defensive possessions where Lebron makes glaring defensive mistakes - one is failing to challenge Iggy in a dunk when he was in every position to do so, second is a botched switch with JR on Livingston, and third is him ball watching and complaining to the refs after a turnover which leads to GSW transition point,something that you cannot afford to do against the warriors and definitely not in the most important game of the season. Even accounting for drtg and ortg, these individual but crucial moments are often lost since those hold the same weight as a harmless turnover first minute into the game. The formula/analytics are useful and powerful, but at this point it can still be improved to make them accurately and correctly determine value.
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On June 13 2017 15:55 Twinkle Toes wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2017 15:10 andrewlt wrote:
The problem with Lebron's "clutch-ness" against Golden State is that he is playing 46 minutes in close games against a very fast paced team. He doesn't have a problem in the clutch against teams that play slower and don't force him to expend all that energy just keeping the game close. All that movement defending Golden State and all the movement necessary to score against their defense is going to tire people out, especially at the pace they play at.
He does have a case of the yips at the free throw line this season. Tim Duncan also had the same problem for a few years early in his career. Yeah, thats a huge factor, I agree. JVG also mentioned again and again how Lebron seems to be too self-conscious about being a self-appointed playmaker that he often passes on crucial plays when he should take them. He has all game to be playmaker/scorer all he wants, but when the game is on the line, if he wants to be undisputed GOAT, he has to take the shot, especially since he can most of the times.
I don't really agree with JVG on that. One of the things that irritates me about the NBA is the tendency of even the best offensive teams to resort to hero ball in the 4th quarter instead of just running their base offense. It results in a predictable decline in offensive efficiency. If Lebron has a shot that comes from their offense, he should take it. I disagree with him forcing shots just because he is their best player.
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On June 14 2017 00:36 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2017 15:55 Twinkle Toes wrote:On June 13 2017 15:10 andrewlt wrote:
The problem with Lebron's "clutch-ness" against Golden State is that he is playing 46 minutes in close games against a very fast paced team. He doesn't have a problem in the clutch against teams that play slower and don't force him to expend all that energy just keeping the game close. All that movement defending Golden State and all the movement necessary to score against their defense is going to tire people out, especially at the pace they play at.
He does have a case of the yips at the free throw line this season. Tim Duncan also had the same problem for a few years early in his career. Yeah, thats a huge factor, I agree. JVG also mentioned again and again how Lebron seems to be too self-conscious about being a self-appointed playmaker that he often passes on crucial plays when he should take them. He has all game to be playmaker/scorer all he wants, but when the game is on the line, if he wants to be undisputed GOAT, he has to take the shot, especially since he can most of the times. I don't really agree with JVG on that. One of the things that irritates me about the NBA is the tendency of even the best offensive teams to resort to hero ball in the 4th quarter instead of just running their base offense. It results in a predictable decline in offensive efficiency. If Lebron has a shot that comes from their offense, he should take it. I disagree with him forcing shots just because he is their best player.
This is one of the reasons why I hate having Mark Jackson on broadcasts. His commentary on good Cavs offense is basically "Lebron needs to run himself into the ground driving the basket on every offensive possession."
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On June 13 2017 22:32 NonY wrote:
Congrats to GSW and KD. And to all the people who said KD shouldn't try to win (ie he shouldn't have joined the Warriors) because he should take personal responsibility for the league's parity, I say one last time to you, what the fuck?
You have a point, but this "I won so therefore my actions are justified and even glorified" is the lowest form of thought.
On June 14 2017 02:43 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2017 00:36 andrewlt wrote:On June 13 2017 15:55 Twinkle Toes wrote:On June 13 2017 15:10 andrewlt wrote:
The problem with Lebron's "clutch-ness" against Golden State is that he is playing 46 minutes in close games against a very fast paced team. He doesn't have a problem in the clutch against teams that play slower and don't force him to expend all that energy just keeping the game close. All that movement defending Golden State and all the movement necessary to score against their defense is going to tire people out, especially at the pace they play at.
He does have a case of the yips at the free throw line this season. Tim Duncan also had the same problem for a few years early in his career. Yeah, thats a huge factor, I agree. JVG also mentioned again and again how Lebron seems to be too self-conscious about being a self-appointed playmaker that he often passes on crucial plays when he should take them. He has all game to be playmaker/scorer all he wants, but when the game is on the line, if he wants to be undisputed GOAT, he has to take the shot, especially since he can most of the times. I don't really agree with JVG on that. One of the things that irritates me about the NBA is the tendency of even the best offensive teams to resort to hero ball in the 4th quarter instead of just running their base offense. It results in a predictable decline in offensive efficiency. If Lebron has a shot that comes from their offense, he should take it. I disagree with him forcing shots just because he is their best player. This is one of the reasons why I hate having Mark Jackson on broadcasts. His commentary on good Cavs offense is basically "Lebron needs to run himself into the ground driving the basket on every offensive possession."
There's nothing more annoying as a fan than watching your team run the same play ineffectively over and over again.
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On June 13 2017 22:32 NonY wrote:
Congrats to GSW and KD. And to all the people who said KD shouldn't try to win (ie he shouldn't have joined the Warriors) because he should take personal responsibility for the league's parity, I say one last time to you, what the fuck?
I rarely see this "personal responsibility for league parity" come up with reasonable basketball fans, but I can certainly understand that joining this GSW team (best regular season team, whom you were btw on the verge of beating in the conference finals, up 3-1), is perceived as a very weak move. As a businessman it's a nice move, you get to win easily, your legacy will have ringz. As a competitor, meh. I'm sure some greats in the history of the NBA would rather have retired than join the team that just performed a crushing comeback on them at the highest of the competition. That's also my own mindset in my limited competitive experience. Maybe it's a wrong mindset, I dont' know.
But it really goes to show that NBA players these days don't really see themselves as the "enemy" and just play basketball for a living, without consideration of "who's the best" and all that.
I think that during free agency, KD didn't even really consider the backlash and the legacy and even the wins. He just genuinely seemed to want to play this style of basketball and obviously enjoys it more. I still think it's more enjoyable because it's easier and the team has more talent, not because they "like to share the ball more" or some bullshit like this.
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I think the Cavs, if they adopt the Warriors offense in spirit can be competitive next year. It will keep LeBron and Kyrie fresh.
Also, LeBron should probably sit the first 10-15 games of the season so Ty Lue actually has to figure out LeBron-free lineups. There is no reason for Kyrie and Love led lineups to stall so much on offense. The Cavs are like addicts, and they need to break the habit so they actually function as a team.
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Don't you think it's possible LeGM might shake this shit up?
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On June 14 2017 04:22 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2017 22:32 NonY wrote:
Congrats to GSW and KD. And to all the people who said KD shouldn't try to win (ie he shouldn't have joined the Warriors) because he should take personal responsibility for the league's parity, I say one last time to you, what the fuck? I rarely see this "personal responsibility for league parity" come up with reasonable basketball fans, but I can certainly understand that joining this GSW team (best regular season team, whom you were btw on the verge of beating in the conference finals, up 3-1), is perceived as a very weak move. As a businessman it's a nice move, you get to win easily, your legacy will have ringz. As a competitor, meh. I'm sure some greats in the history of the NBA would rather have retired than join the team that just performed a crushing comeback on them at the highest of the competition. That's also my own mindset in my limited competitive experience. Maybe it's a wrong mindset, I dont' know. But it really goes to show that NBA players these days don't really see themselves as the "enemy" and just play basketball for a living, without consideration of "who's the best" and all that. I think that during free agency, KD didn't even really consider the backlash and the legacy and even the wins. He just genuinely seemed to want to play this style of basketball and obviously enjoys it more. I still think it's more enjoyable because it's easier and the team has more talent, not because they "like to share the ball more" or some bullshit like this.
If I was a multi-millionaire, I wouldn't want to spend the prime of my life living in Oklahoma City, either. Perhaps it's just me, but the past greats throwing stones at current players sound like one-dimensional human beings who are unable to move past basketball after retirement. It's just sad and pathetic. They sound like they have nothing going on in their life so they have to pop out and seek attention every playoff time by reminding the world of how great they were back in the day.
Both Steve Kerr and Greg Poppovich run their teams with a "there are bigger things in life than basketball" ethos. Some former players and fans don't want players to subscribe to that ethos but I can tell you that there are players who appreciate playing for coaches who think that way. Being near Silicon Valley was one of the reasons that Andre Iguodala joined the Warriors and he was instrumental in recruiting Durant. There was an article on ESPN that talked about how going around the Bay Area helped Durant deal with his injury back in March.
I don't think it's just the talent that makes Warriors basketball more fun. The style of play looks more fun. The entire atmosphere and the culture of the team looks more fun as well. Playing 82 games alongside Russell Westbrook feels like the sort of thing that is just emotionally draining.
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only way cavs get better is trading love
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A lot of the "fun playstyle" just stems from their players being better than the rest. You can afford the extra pass when the ball ends up in a shooter's hands. It's easy to find cuts when there is that much shooting around you. When 2 out of the 5 guys on the floor have to be doubled, it just makes it easier for everybody.
The nice atmosphere kind of comes naturally with winning, especially winning this convincingly.
Backtracking from my excessive statement from earlier, I won't deny that all of their players do genuinely seem to like sharing the ball (really different from Westbrook indeed), it's rare that so many great players enjoy playing off-ball. But other teams in the NBA also play with that mindset, and their playstyle seems "less fun" because their players are worse and they win less.
Edit: I also agree that if Lebron wants to win another one, he's going to have to do it with a different set of teammates in some form or another. The main thing that he has going against him is that he's leaving his physical prime, albeit slowly, and I don't think his non-physical attributes can become much better at this point (although I'm really impressed with his shooting from distance). He couldn't win against these Warriors this year, he won't be able to next year either.
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EPT
