EPTNBA Finals 2017 - Page 16
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biology]major
United States2253 Posts
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zev318
Canada4306 Posts
On June 14 2017 08:22 biology]major wrote: Lebron is still the best player on the planet, KD is second. lebron has also never played on a super team, confirmed by the man himself | ||
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Shinokuki
United States923 Posts
On June 14 2017 08:22 biology]major wrote: Lebron is still the best player on the planet, KD is second. Still think Durant is. Lebron's stats is inflated because his players complement his skills. Cavs live and die by lebron so when cavs role players suck cavs fall apart. It's pretty easy to rack up assists and points when you're extremely ball dominant and plays half ass defense as well. Not to mention that he plays in an ideal system perfectly suited for his play | ||
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Jerubaal
United States7684 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17474 Posts
On June 14 2017 09:12 Jerubaal wrote: I feel like we're in a "Post-stats" era where you have to take a lot of stats, assists most of all, with heavy scrutiny. i think you need to look at different stats. | ||
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Jerubaal
United States7684 Posts
On June 14 2017 09:30 JimmyJRaynor wrote: i think you need to look at different stats. Or just look at that one XRAPM that you keep bringing up because it was literally the only metric that supported your argument. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17474 Posts
and in terms of vanilla plus/minus james is near the top with no other team mates indicating he is a very very big part of cleveland's success. other players near the top in vanilla plus/minus also have team mates around them near the top. all LBJ has is Irving and Love at #23 and #25. https://www.sportingcharts.com/nba/stats/individual-player-plus-minus-statistics/2016/ | ||
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Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
On June 14 2017 04:22 ZenithM wrote: But it really goes to show that NBA players these days don't really see themselves as the "enemy" and just play basketball for a living, without consideration of "who's the best" and all that. BING-fucking-GO!!! This is the be-all-end-all summation of this era of basketball we have right now. It is difficult to really pass moral judgment as there are two sides to it. It is bad because it undermines the competitive spirit of the game among players who want to prove who is the best and are nemesis on court, and would want to destroy each other every night. The last guards of that era are Kobe, Dirk, AI, and maybe even TMac. It is impossible to imagine them in their primes joining each other. It is even unimaginable for them to be exchanging pleasantries on court in the middle of the game. On the other hand, we have Lebron and later KD joining other superstars in their primes. Moreover, it was kind of off-putting to see James and KD smiling and talking heartily to each other in the middle of the West-Thompson On the other hand, I think this is also a welcome development of players taking control of their destinies away from team owners and the league in general. It's nothing more than a job. As someone else here said, the Kerr-Pop mentality that there are bigger things in life than basketball is a healthy approach. Maybe players can strike a balance between the two paradigms. And maybe KD's and James' situations right now are birthing pains towards this balance?.. On June 14 2017 08:30 Shinokuki wrote: Still think Durant is. Lebron's stats is inflated because his players complement his skills. Cavs live and die by lebron so when cavs role players suck cavs fall apart. It's pretty easy to rack up assists and points when you're extremely ball dominant and plays half ass defense as well. Not to mention that he plays in an ideal system perfectly suited for his play As a Lebron fan, this is what seriously irritates me about him. He is too conscious about his legacy that he often mistakes the appearance for the substance. Why lie about forming/being in superteams? That is an essential part of your legacy. Only because you lost to a monster of your own making does not mean you are not guilty of it. Lebron was the progenetor of this modern superteam, and practically handpicked the players who would surround him, demanding max for TT and JR when there were better options from a management perspective. But he gets a pass if only because it happened after a bitter finals loss. Lebron's greatness is known to all. He is at worst top 5, and at best undeniably top 3. He should focus on the game, do his best, and his legacy will follow. Also as a Lebron fan, I have to bitterly admit it, KD is the best player in the NBA right now. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17474 Posts
On June 14 2017 10:14 Twinkle Toes wrote:Also as a Lebron fan, I have to bitterly admit it, KD is the best player in the NBA right now. depends how big a time slice "right now" is. if its the past 12 months i'd say LBJ > Durant. if its the past 3 weeks its a long debate. Durant might have outplayed LBJ during the 5 final games of the season. maybe. its hard to say. any how, i think Durant will surpass LBJ next year as the best player. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
The key element this series I think was that nobody on the Cavs is a great perimeter defender capable of making KD work for shots. KD ended the finals with like 69%TS... That's where I was most disappointed with LBJ, he seemed unable to both be the engine in offense and guard KD 1-on-1. A Kawhi-led team might now have more chance to beat the GSW. | ||
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Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
On June 14 2017 16:20 ZenithM wrote: It then took a pretty ridiculous team to stop him I shake my goddamn head. This is Lebron-stan level talk. It doesnt take anything special to stop Lebron. Its been done multiple times. 2011 Mavs (Ancient Dirk vs. not-1-not-2-not-3-HEat), 2010 Magic (vs. Dwight), 2007 SAS, and 2014 SAS (Old superteam of Duncan-Manu-Tony-upcoming Kawhi). Lebron is a legitimate GOAT candidate, but lets not pretend that he is perfect and only "pretty ridiculous teams" could beat him. Mavs, despite their immense lack of talent, smothered him switching between zone and iso traps, which lead to his worst performance, 2007 Spurs took advantage of his weak perimeter shot and played conservatively. 2014 Spurs simply played team-oriented basketball vs. Lebron superteam 2.0. MOreover, this talk is disrespectful to the Warriors. I mean, yeah, lets use the victory of GSW to celebrate Lebrons greatness. Come on. On June 14 2017 16:20 ZenithM wrote: That's where I was most disappointed with LBJ, he seemed unable to both be the engine in offense and guard KD 1-on-1. To add to this, other than the fact that indeed KD torch Lebron, having historical level efficient of a finals performance and Lebron was the primary defender, but there were plenty of missed switches or let back door cuts go behind them, and failing to cover on the regular basis, it was all Lebron and not the cavs "team" defense. Maybe Lebron 2010-12 would have done a better job... | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17474 Posts
KD's efficiency levels are aided by team mates who force spacing. back to cumulative vanilla +/- i linked earlier. KD was part of a "gang of 5" at the top. The players around LBJ were no where near as good as he was. KD was surrounded by players close to his ability. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
Beside, wtf do we want Lebron to do better exactly? He was averaging 33.6 points, 12 rebounds, 10 asssists, 1 block, 1.4 steal on 56.4%FG. Say what you will, it's not that easy to get those stats, and it's hard to improve upon. It's just completely delusional to look at those Finals and say "Lebron has to change"... Imo the only thing he did not do well is guarding KD, and he will never get better at that anyway. Like I said, the day Lebron isn't the best playmaker and overall decision maker on his team, maybe he'll think about changing. It's much more likely that the Cavs will be going for roster changes. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17474 Posts
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Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
On June 14 2017 18:08 ZenithM wrote: Twinkle Toes, you missed my point. My point was that it's hard to argue that LBJ should change anything. He won last year against a great team, playing that kind of ball-dominant drive-and-kick style of his. Then this year he goes 12-1 in the playoffs until the finals, where he's defeated by a historically talented team. Beside, wtf do we want Lebron to do better exactly? He was averaging 33.6 points, 12 rebounds, 10 asssists, 1 block, 1.4 steal on 56.4%FG. Say what you will, it's not that easy to get those stats, and it's hard to improve upon. It's just completely delusional to look at those Finals and say "Lebron has to change"... Imo the only thing he did not do well is guarding KD, and he will never get better at that anyway. Like I said, the day Lebron isn't the best playmaker and overall decision maker on his team, maybe he'll think about changing. It's much more likely that the Cavs will be going for roster changes. Point taken. Im just taking special exception with this narrative recently that it takes a historically great team to beat him, with strong undertones pertaining to the Warriors superteam. First, because Lebron himself paved the way for this brand of superteam where superstars at their peak band with each other. Second, it's not as if Lebron does not have a great team himself this year. this is a #1 #1 #1 team with parts handpicked by Lebron vs. a #7 #11 #35 team that was well managed and got very very lucky to get Durant. It just so happened that Lebron's team is not functioning as expected. Having said that, the offseason acquisition of the Cavs will be the highlight of NBA fans this summer. | ||
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Elroi
Sweden5599 Posts
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
Damn, what I would have given to see healthy Kawhi... This superteam talk is just boring. Call the Cavs a superteam, a normal team, call the Warriors a hyperteam or I don't know what else, what difference does it make? It's obvious the Warriors were much better coming into the Finals. And people talking about "unfairness" are idiots. Everything happened within the rules. GSW developped their core All-NBA guys from the draft, and then signed KD because they could. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On June 14 2017 18:08 ZenithM wrote: Twinkle Toes, you missed my point. My point was that it's hard to argue that LBJ should change anything. He won last year against a great team, playing that kind of ball-dominant drive-and-kick style of his. Then this year he goes 12-1 in the playoffs until the finals, where he's defeated by a historically talented team. Beside, wtf do we want Lebron to do better exactly? He was averaging 33.6 points, 12 rebounds, 10 asssists, 1 block, 1.4 steal on 56.4%FG. Say what you will, it's not that easy to get those stats, and it's hard to improve upon. It's just completely delusional to look at those Finals and say "Lebron has to change"... Imo the only thing he did not do well is guarding KD, and he will never get better at that anyway. Like I said, the day Lebron isn't the best playmaker and overall decision maker on his team, maybe he'll think about changing. It's much more likely that the Cavs will be going for roster changes. Imo, LeBron's stats will have to suffer for the team to improve ( also we need to remember this was a high-pace finals overall so everyone's stats are inflated), because the way he plays right now makes the team play in a way that makes him indispensable. This shouldn't be the case on a team with this much offensive talent. | ||
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