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On June 04 2014 10:19 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2014 10:04 Ace wrote:On June 04 2014 09:54 TwoToneTerran wrote:On June 04 2014 05:06 Ace wrote:
Actually Jordan's scoring skillset is probably more unique than Rodman's rebounding. Kobe isn't really close to Jordan in terms of offensive impact at all. Rodman's rebounding for his size and build is way more deviant from the mean than Jordan's scoring and efficiency for his. Actually, no  . There hasn't been a player in league history that had such a long outlier scoring career with absurd usage rate. Even crazier is Jordan is a SG and destroyed almost everyone else's best seasons outside of Kareem. From his rookie year he was a high usage, highly accurate mid-range shooter. You just don't see that. There have been a lot of guards in league history with high usage and great midrange shooting. Jordan is obviously of the best bunch and had the highest usage of any of them, which is impressive. The argument isn't about what's the most impressive. I'm not sure what you're saying I don't see but you're applying an argument to what I'm saying that I didn't make. Usage rate isn't a unique skill set. Jordan's scoring and efficiency with a heavily midrange and athletic based scoring skill set isn't as separated from the pack as Rodman's rebounding rates. This isn't some knock to Jordan but everytime you mention Jordan as not the #1 of something someone will always say some unrelated crap about Jordan destroying everyone like somehow, someone here is ignorant of Jordan's dominance. That's not the argument. It's purely an acknowledgement of an amazing statistical outlier that is Rodman. It's a matter of "oh, that's interesting," not a competition to talk about how awesome Jordan is.
It really is though. It is rare, even accounting for modern high usage wing play, for a perimeter player to be using up so many possessions for his team and still hitting at an absurd rate. A rate that typically only Centers like Shaq could match. A midrange jumper from MJ was worth a lay up from a star player - that's ultra unique. Even godly midrange shooters like Dirk, Pierce, Wade, Paul can't match his volume.
Also I'm not a Jordan homer.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
Some people believe that Kobe is a worse version of Jordan, and that there is no player that can even be described as a "version" of Rodman. Others believe that Jordan was so dominant that Kobe cannot really be described as a version of Jordan either. All I wanted to point out initially was that Rodman is extremely under-appreciated, and that even if you don't think he's "more valuable" or "more unique" (whatever that means) than Jordan, he's at least in the running.
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You're overrating Rodman in that case. He did two things very well but a lot of others quite poorly. He was an exceptional role player but he wasn't more valuable than pippen let alone MJ.
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On June 04 2014 10:39 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2014 10:19 TwoToneTerran wrote:On June 04 2014 10:04 Ace wrote:On June 04 2014 09:54 TwoToneTerran wrote:On June 04 2014 05:06 Ace wrote:
Actually Jordan's scoring skillset is probably more unique than Rodman's rebounding. Kobe isn't really close to Jordan in terms of offensive impact at all. Rodman's rebounding for his size and build is way more deviant from the mean than Jordan's scoring and efficiency for his. Actually, no . There hasn't been a player in league history that had such a long outlier scoring career with absurd usage rate. Even crazier is Jordan is a SG and destroyed almost everyone else's best seasons outside of Kareem. From his rookie year he was a high usage, highly accurate mid-range shooter. You just don't see that. There have been a lot of guards in league history with high usage and great midrange shooting. Jordan is obviously of the best bunch and had the highest usage of any of them, which is impressive. The argument isn't about what's the most impressive. I'm not sure what you're saying I don't see but you're applying an argument to what I'm saying that I didn't make. Usage rate isn't a unique skill set. Jordan's scoring and efficiency with a heavily midrange and athletic based scoring skill set isn't as separated from the pack as Rodman's rebounding rates. This isn't some knock to Jordan but everytime you mention Jordan as not the #1 of something someone will always say some unrelated crap about Jordan destroying everyone like somehow, someone here is ignorant of Jordan's dominance. That's not the argument. It's purely an acknowledgement of an amazing statistical outlier that is Rodman. It's a matter of "oh, that's interesting," not a competition to talk about how awesome Jordan is. It really is though. It is rare, even accounting for modern high usage wing play, for a perimeter player to be using up so many possessions for his team and still hitting at an absurd rate. A rate that typically only Centers like Shaq could match. A midrange jumper from MJ was worth a lay up from a star player - that's ultra unique. Even godly midrange shooters like Dirk, Pierce, Wade, Paul can't match his volume. Also I'm not a Jordan homer.
Being "rare" isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying that Rodman's rebounding is more separated from his peers than Jordan's scoring is from his peers. Jordan's the best scorer ever when you ignore the silly old timer stats, but his scoring is not as separated from other scorers in history as Rodman's rebounding is separated from others in history.
I don't care if you're a Jordan homer or not, you saw something that has been misconstrued as a slight to Jordan's uniqueness and rushed to defend him with arguments that don't address what I'm saying. People are so blinded with Jordan's greatness that you're repeating stuff that I've already addressed and that doesn't really affect the argument.
Both players are one of a kind, that's not the point. Rodman's rebounding is more superior to the next best rebounder than Jordan's scoring is to the next best scorer.
On June 04 2014 10:35 RowdierBob wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2014 09:54 TwoToneTerran wrote:On June 04 2014 05:06 Ace wrote:
Actually Jordan's scoring skillset is probably more unique than Rodman's rebounding. Kobe isn't really close to Jordan in terms of offensive impact at all. Rodman's rebounding for his size and build is way more deviant from the mean than Jordan's scoring and efficiency for his. On June 04 2014 08:58 RowdierBob wrote:
I've watched a lot of Nba since the early 90s and I haven't seen anyone close to Jordan.
Have been a lot of good players since MJ but none remind me of him. LeBron is the most dominant since MJ imo but his game is more like some weird hybrid of magics all round game and Shawn kemps athleticism. Is this a troll or something? Magic's game is so dissimilar from Jordan's I'm not sure what you're saying. It's not about being close to Jordan's greatness or whatever. Kobe in his prime is a moderately worse fascimile of Jordan -- this is something that Jordan himself has readily acknowledged. Hell there's other guards like Johnson who have a similar skill set, even if the drop off is enormous. You can't name another Hall of Fame -- heck, even All Star level player who's even remotely similar to Rodman. The man's game is as unique as, well, as unique as he is. It's not just about counting rebound numbers or you'd just toss Wilt's name into every conversation and be done with it. Que? I compared LeBron to magic...
My bad. We were just talking about Jordan and Rodman and I kind of had the statement run together because Lebron isn't even close to this conversation.
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Duncan and Ginobili are amazing persons. Hope to have them win this.
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On June 04 2014 21:20 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2014 10:39 Ace wrote:On June 04 2014 10:19 TwoToneTerran wrote:On June 04 2014 10:04 Ace wrote:On June 04 2014 09:54 TwoToneTerran wrote:On June 04 2014 05:06 Ace wrote:
Actually Jordan's scoring skillset is probably more unique than Rodman's rebounding. Kobe isn't really close to Jordan in terms of offensive impact at all. Rodman's rebounding for his size and build is way more deviant from the mean than Jordan's scoring and efficiency for his. Actually, no . There hasn't been a player in league history that had such a long outlier scoring career with absurd usage rate. Even crazier is Jordan is a SG and destroyed almost everyone else's best seasons outside of Kareem. From his rookie year he was a high usage, highly accurate mid-range shooter. You just don't see that. There have been a lot of guards in league history with high usage and great midrange shooting. Jordan is obviously of the best bunch and had the highest usage of any of them, which is impressive. The argument isn't about what's the most impressive. I'm not sure what you're saying I don't see but you're applying an argument to what I'm saying that I didn't make. Usage rate isn't a unique skill set. Jordan's scoring and efficiency with a heavily midrange and athletic based scoring skill set isn't as separated from the pack as Rodman's rebounding rates. This isn't some knock to Jordan but everytime you mention Jordan as not the #1 of something someone will always say some unrelated crap about Jordan destroying everyone like somehow, someone here is ignorant of Jordan's dominance. That's not the argument. It's purely an acknowledgement of an amazing statistical outlier that is Rodman. It's a matter of "oh, that's interesting," not a competition to talk about how awesome Jordan is. It really is though. It is rare, even accounting for modern high usage wing play, for a perimeter player to be using up so many possessions for his team and still hitting at an absurd rate. A rate that typically only Centers like Shaq could match. A midrange jumper from MJ was worth a lay up from a star player - that's ultra unique. Even godly midrange shooters like Dirk, Pierce, Wade, Paul can't match his volume. Also I'm not a Jordan homer. Being "rare" isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying that Rodman's rebounding is more separated from his peers than Jordan's scoring is from his peers. Jordan's the best scorer ever when you ignore the silly old timer stats, but his scoring is not as separated from other scorers in history as Rodman's rebounding is separated from others in history. I don't care if you're a Jordan homer or not, you saw something that has been misconstrued as a slight to Jordan's uniqueness and rushed to defend him with arguments that don't address what I'm saying. People are so blinded with Jordan's greatness that you're repeating stuff that I've already addressed and that doesn't really affect the argument. Both players are one of a kind, that's not the point. Rodman's rebounding is more superior to the next best rebounder than Jordan's scoring is to the next best scorer. Show nested quote +On June 04 2014 10:35 RowdierBob wrote:On June 04 2014 09:54 TwoToneTerran wrote:On June 04 2014 05:06 Ace wrote:
Actually Jordan's scoring skillset is probably more unique than Rodman's rebounding. Kobe isn't really close to Jordan in terms of offensive impact at all. Rodman's rebounding for his size and build is way more deviant from the mean than Jordan's scoring and efficiency for his. On June 04 2014 08:58 RowdierBob wrote:
I've watched a lot of Nba since the early 90s and I haven't seen anyone close to Jordan.
Have been a lot of good players since MJ but none remind me of him. LeBron is the most dominant since MJ imo but his game is more like some weird hybrid of magics all round game and Shawn kemps athleticism. Is this a troll or something? Magic's game is so dissimilar from Jordan's I'm not sure what you're saying. It's not about being close to Jordan's greatness or whatever. Kobe in his prime is a moderately worse fascimile of Jordan -- this is something that Jordan himself has readily acknowledged. Hell there's other guards like Johnson who have a similar skill set, even if the drop off is enormous. You can't name another Hall of Fame -- heck, even All Star level player who's even remotely similar to Rodman. The man's game is as unique as, well, as unique as he is. It's not just about counting rebound numbers or you'd just toss Wilt's name into every conversation and be done with it. Que? I compared LeBron to magic... My bad. We were just talking about Jordan and Rodman and I kind of had the statement run together because Lebron isn't even close to this conversation.
All stats aren't equal though. Rodman pulling down boards is not the same as the influence Jordan had on an offence.
Rebounding is an overrated stat for mine. See, for example: http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2013/03/22/these-spurs-arent-the-same/
I'm not saying it isn't important but it's a difficult stat to compare against scoring, which I would argue requires a much more diverse skill set.
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On June 04 2014 22:46 RowdierBob wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2014 21:20 TwoToneTerran wrote:On June 04 2014 10:39 Ace wrote:On June 04 2014 10:19 TwoToneTerran wrote:On June 04 2014 10:04 Ace wrote:On June 04 2014 09:54 TwoToneTerran wrote:On June 04 2014 05:06 Ace wrote:
Actually Jordan's scoring skillset is probably more unique than Rodman's rebounding. Kobe isn't really close to Jordan in terms of offensive impact at all. Rodman's rebounding for his size and build is way more deviant from the mean than Jordan's scoring and efficiency for his. Actually, no . There hasn't been a player in league history that had such a long outlier scoring career with absurd usage rate. Even crazier is Jordan is a SG and destroyed almost everyone else's best seasons outside of Kareem. From his rookie year he was a high usage, highly accurate mid-range shooter. You just don't see that. There have been a lot of guards in league history with high usage and great midrange shooting. Jordan is obviously of the best bunch and had the highest usage of any of them, which is impressive. The argument isn't about what's the most impressive. I'm not sure what you're saying I don't see but you're applying an argument to what I'm saying that I didn't make. Usage rate isn't a unique skill set. Jordan's scoring and efficiency with a heavily midrange and athletic based scoring skill set isn't as separated from the pack as Rodman's rebounding rates. This isn't some knock to Jordan but everytime you mention Jordan as not the #1 of something someone will always say some unrelated crap about Jordan destroying everyone like somehow, someone here is ignorant of Jordan's dominance. That's not the argument. It's purely an acknowledgement of an amazing statistical outlier that is Rodman. It's a matter of "oh, that's interesting," not a competition to talk about how awesome Jordan is. It really is though. It is rare, even accounting for modern high usage wing play, for a perimeter player to be using up so many possessions for his team and still hitting at an absurd rate. A rate that typically only Centers like Shaq could match. A midrange jumper from MJ was worth a lay up from a star player - that's ultra unique. Even godly midrange shooters like Dirk, Pierce, Wade, Paul can't match his volume. Also I'm not a Jordan homer. Being "rare" isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying that Rodman's rebounding is more separated from his peers than Jordan's scoring is from his peers. Jordan's the best scorer ever when you ignore the silly old timer stats, but his scoring is not as separated from other scorers in history as Rodman's rebounding is separated from others in history. I don't care if you're a Jordan homer or not, you saw something that has been misconstrued as a slight to Jordan's uniqueness and rushed to defend him with arguments that don't address what I'm saying. People are so blinded with Jordan's greatness that you're repeating stuff that I've already addressed and that doesn't really affect the argument. Both players are one of a kind, that's not the point. Rodman's rebounding is more superior to the next best rebounder than Jordan's scoring is to the next best scorer. On June 04 2014 10:35 RowdierBob wrote:On June 04 2014 09:54 TwoToneTerran wrote:On June 04 2014 05:06 Ace wrote:
Actually Jordan's scoring skillset is probably more unique than Rodman's rebounding. Kobe isn't really close to Jordan in terms of offensive impact at all. Rodman's rebounding for his size and build is way more deviant from the mean than Jordan's scoring and efficiency for his. On June 04 2014 08:58 RowdierBob wrote:
I've watched a lot of Nba since the early 90s and I haven't seen anyone close to Jordan.
Have been a lot of good players since MJ but none remind me of him. LeBron is the most dominant since MJ imo but his game is more like some weird hybrid of magics all round game and Shawn kemps athleticism. Is this a troll or something? Magic's game is so dissimilar from Jordan's I'm not sure what you're saying. It's not about being close to Jordan's greatness or whatever. Kobe in his prime is a moderately worse fascimile of Jordan -- this is something that Jordan himself has readily acknowledged. Hell there's other guards like Johnson who have a similar skill set, even if the drop off is enormous. You can't name another Hall of Fame -- heck, even All Star level player who's even remotely similar to Rodman. The man's game is as unique as, well, as unique as he is. It's not just about counting rebound numbers or you'd just toss Wilt's name into every conversation and be done with it. Que? I compared LeBron to magic... My bad. We were just talking about Jordan and Rodman and I kind of had the statement run together because Lebron isn't even close to this conversation. All stats aren't equal though. Rodman pulling down boards is not the same as the influence Jordan had on an offence. Rebounding is an overrated stat for mine. See, for example: http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2013/03/22/these-spurs-arent-the-same/I'm not saying it isn't important but it's a difficult stat to compare against scoring, which I would argue requires a much more diverse skill set.
I never said Jordan's offense wasn't more valuable or important. You keep making strawmen and I keep having to tell you that that's not the point. I never said Rebounding > Scoring. I never said one was over or under rated. I don't know how often I have to repeat myself but you are seriously harping on a point I'm not making.
It's not difficult to compare the rate of difference between rebounding and scoring.
There are a lot more skills involved in scoring. That's also not the point. Whatever skills Jordan has did not separate him from the next best scorers to the degree that Rodman's does to the next best rebounders. That's all -- Rodman is the most statistically errant and dominant player of a particular skill set.
Put it this way, we are far more likely to see someone in the future who can replicate Jordan's scoring ability than we are to find someone who can replicate Rodman's rebounding ability if you take all players in the history of the sport as the sample size. This is because Rodman's specialty is much, much more divergent than Jordan's. That might be because scoring, like you say, is a lot harder to get better and better at and requires learning a lot more techniques and skills. But this is never what I was arguing.
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hahahahahahahaha
@Bob: That was a great read.
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Don't really care either way but it would be nice to see the Spurs win after last years heart break.
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That captures Schefter and the current NFL so perfectly.
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2602 Posts
Head: Heat
Heart: Spurs
Dream scenario: Spurs up 3-2. Last seconds of game 6 and Ray Allen takes the game winning three only to have it get blocked. Spurs win on a blocked Ray Allen three pointer.
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go spurs, the epitome of team basketball
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On June 05 2014 10:13 nooboon wrote:
Head: Heat
Heart: Spurs
Dream scenario: Spurs up 3-2. Last seconds of game 6 and Ray Allen takes the game winning three only to have it get blocked. Spurs win on a blocked Ray Allen three pointer.
Oh you made me so wet
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On June 05 2014 10:34 Doraemon wrote:
go spurs, the epitome of team basketball
I can not root for a team that forbids Alley Oops, no matter how much pretty passing there is.
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9am for me lol. Will try to watch at work, without sound ofc
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Exciting basketball, hope the whole series is like this.
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lol wow, AC in the building malfunctioned. Must be toasty in there right now.
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That LeBron move looked really nifty on the replay angle.
Edit: The shooters these two teams put on the floor, hot damn. 55 and 58% from 3 right now.
Edit 2: Heat gone cold to end the half, missed 4 straight(3 from Allen, shocking) that were wide open.
Love the pace/style of this game though. So much ball movement from both teams.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/yPyw8Uw.png)
