I think heat can win, but I think San Antonio will win because the whole team looks too complete and dominant. I don't know, 51/49. I hope we reach to epic game seven double OT 1 point win.
On June 02 2014 14:42 Christ the Redeemer wrote: I think heat can win, but I think San Antonio will win because the whole team looks too complete and dominant. I don't know, 51/49. I hope we reach to epic game seven double OT 1 point win.
Add home court advantage. But yeah, this is going to be epic.
GL Spurs, I am rooting for them for sure. Can't have anything but massive respect for that org. I feel like the Heat have had so much less work to do; not only from a rotating-personnel perspective but also from their playoff run in terms of difficulty.
So do the 80s Lakers get a pass for having a pretty easy run to 7 Finals, whereas Boston/Chicago/Detroit had it harder? That's a pretty silly argument. Especially since Miami has had lots of success in a short tenure with some horrible luck.
God that Rodman video. Is there a more athletic and longer top 5 in the history of the NBA? Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, Harper, Kukoc.
It is reasonable to suggest that Rodman, not Jordan, is the "most valuable" NBA player of all time, because he dominated his niche to an extent that no other player dominated his. In other words, Jordan might be the greatest scorer of all time, but he was not "more better" than other top scorers in the same way that Rodman was "unbelievably more better" than all other top rebounders. http://skepticalsports.com/?p=197
On June 03 2014 17:30 oneofthem wrote: spurs are almost as old as the yankees.
statistically, the Heat is older than the spurs. I don't know what it'd look like if you ponderated the ages by the average minutes played in playoff rotation though. But I'd bet it'd favor the spurs even more, since they're the only playoff team to rotate this much in crunch time.
well heat's got a bunch of veterans tagging on with them to win a ring and such. lebron is still in his prime. duncan is like 50 and ginobili and parker are no spring chicken either
without spurs system churning out useful and young depth they would not be here though, so i guess they are younger than it seems, largely because of their old guys taking lesser of a role than imagined
God that Rodman video. Is there a more athletic and longer top 5 in the history of the NBA? Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, Harper, Kukoc.
It is reasonable to suggest that Rodman, not Jordan, is the "most valuable" NBA player of all time, because he dominated his niche to an extent that no other player dominated his. In other words, Jordan might be the greatest scorer of all time, but he was not "more better" than other top scorers in the same way that Rodman was "unbelievably more better" than all other top rebounders. http://skepticalsports.com/?p=197
Hmmm, yeah, no...
* Jordan was far, far more than just a great scorer. Melo is a great scorer. Durant is a great scorer. Jordan was in a whole other league.
* Jordan won half his titles without Rodman (Horace Grant instead--a great role player in his time too).
Maybe if you change it to most valuable role player of all time, then yes.
Then again I guess it depends on your definition of "most valuable". A blinkered view--which I would take--would simply suggest which player on the team had the most value. And it's obviously Michael Jordan. Role players like Rodman are the icing on the Jordan cake (and in Rodman's case, the cherry on top too.
Rodman was great because he was very elite at two aspects of basketball (defence and rebounding) and relentlessly played to these strengths because he had two coaches in particular that recognised and maximised his value (Daly and Jackson). He knew what he was and never tried to be more. That's part of what makes really good role players like him so valuable. But it doesn't make him the most valuable.
God that Rodman video. Is there a more athletic and longer top 5 in the history of the NBA? Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, Harper, Kukoc.
It is reasonable to suggest that Rodman, not Jordan, is the "most valuable" NBA player of all time, because he dominated his niche to an extent that no other player dominated his. In other words, Jordan might be the greatest scorer of all time, but he was not "more better" than other top scorers in the same way that Rodman was "unbelievably more better" than all other top rebounders. http://skepticalsports.com/?p=197
Hmmm, yeah, no...
* Jordan was far, far more than just a great scorer. Melo is a great scorer. Durant is a great scorer. Jordan was in a whole other league.
* Jordan won half his titles without Rodman (Horace Grant instead--a great role player in his time too).
Maybe if you change it to most valuable role player of all time, then yes.
Then again I guess it depends on your definition of "most valuable". A blinkered view--which I would take--would simply suggest which player on the team had the most value. And it's obviously Michael Jordan. Role players like Rodman are the icing on the Jordan cake (and in Rodman's case, the cherry on top too.
Rodman was great because he was very elite at two aspects of basketball (defence and rebounding) and relentlessly played to these strengths because he had two coaches in particular that recognised and maximised his value (Daly and Jackson). He knew what he was and never tried to be more. That's part of what makes really good role players like him so valuable. But it doesn't make him the most valuable.
It is harder to replace Rodman's talent than any other because he is the most unique, elite talent in NBA history. Kobe's more similar to Jordan than any other player in history is similar to Rodman.
Though obviously Jordan is A: Better and B: More important to those Bulls teams. His scoring skillset is more important to a winning team, even if it's not as unique.
Actually Jordan's scoring skillset is probably more unique than Rodman's rebounding. Kobe isn't really close to Jordan in terms of offensive impact at all.
I've watched a lot of Nba since the early 90s and I haven't seen anyone close to Jordan.
Have been a lot of good players since MJ but none remind me of him. LeBron is the most dominant since MJ imo but his game is more like some weird hybrid of magics all round game and Shawn kemps athleticism.
On June 04 2014 05:06 Ace wrote: Actually Jordan's scoring skillset is probably more unique than Rodman's rebounding. Kobe isn't really close to Jordan in terms of offensive impact at all.
Rodman's rebounding for his size and build is way more deviant from the mean than Jordan's scoring and efficiency for his.
On June 04 2014 08:58 RowdierBob wrote: I've watched a lot of Nba since the early 90s and I haven't seen anyone close to Jordan.
Have been a lot of good players since MJ but none remind me of him. LeBron is the most dominant since MJ imo but his game is more like some weird hybrid of magics all round game and Shawn kemps athleticism.
Is this a troll or something? Magic's game is so dissimilar from Jordan's I'm not sure what you're saying.
It's not about being close to Jordan's greatness or whatever. Kobe in his prime is a moderately worse fascimile of Jordan -- this is something that Jordan himself has readily acknowledged. Hell there's other guards like Johnson who have a similar skill set, even if the drop off is enormous.
You can't name another Hall of Fame -- heck, even All Star level player who's even remotely similar to Rodman. The man's game is as unique as, well, as unique as he is. It's not just about counting rebound numbers or you'd just toss Wilt's name into every conversation and be done with it.
On June 04 2014 05:06 Ace wrote: Actually Jordan's scoring skillset is probably more unique than Rodman's rebounding. Kobe isn't really close to Jordan in terms of offensive impact at all.
Rodman's rebounding for his size and build is way more deviant from the mean than Jordan's scoring and efficiency for his.
Actually, no . There hasn't been a player in league history that had such a long outlier scoring career with absurd usage rate. Even crazier is Jordan is a SG and destroyed almost everyone else's best seasons outside of Kareem. From his rookie year he was a high usage, highly accurate mid-range shooter. You just don't see that.
On June 04 2014 05:06 Ace wrote: Actually Jordan's scoring skillset is probably more unique than Rodman's rebounding. Kobe isn't really close to Jordan in terms of offensive impact at all.
Rodman's rebounding for his size and build is way more deviant from the mean than Jordan's scoring and efficiency for his.
Actually, no . There hasn't been a player in league history that had such a long outlier scoring career with absurd usage rate. Even crazier is Jordan is a SG and destroyed almost everyone else's best seasons outside of Kareem. From his rookie year he was a high usage, highly accurate mid-range shooter. You just don't see that.
There have been a lot of guards in league history with high usage and great midrange shooting. Jordan is obviously of the best bunch and had the highest usage of any of them, which is impressive. The argument isn't about what's the most impressive. I'm not sure what you're saying I don't see but you're applying an argument to what I'm saying that I didn't make. Usage rate isn't a unique skill set. Jordan's scoring and efficiency with a heavily midrange and athletic based scoring skill set isn't as separated from the pack as Rodman's rebounding rates.
This isn't some knock to Jordan but everytime you mention Jordan as not the #1 of something someone will always say some unrelated crap about Jordan destroying everyone like somehow, someone here is ignorant of Jordan's dominance. That's not the argument. It's purely an acknowledgement of an amazing statistical outlier that is Rodman. It's a matter of "oh, that's interesting," not a competition to talk about how awesome Jordan is.
On June 04 2014 05:06 Ace wrote: Actually Jordan's scoring skillset is probably more unique than Rodman's rebounding. Kobe isn't really close to Jordan in terms of offensive impact at all.
Rodman's rebounding for his size and build is way more deviant from the mean than Jordan's scoring and efficiency for his.
On June 04 2014 08:58 RowdierBob wrote: I've watched a lot of Nba since the early 90s and I haven't seen anyone close to Jordan.
Have been a lot of good players since MJ but none remind me of him. LeBron is the most dominant since MJ imo but his game is more like some weird hybrid of magics all round game and Shawn kemps athleticism.
Is this a troll or something? Magic's game is so dissimilar from Jordan's I'm not sure what you're saying.
It's not about being close to Jordan's greatness or whatever. Kobe in his prime is a moderately worse fascimile of Jordan -- this is something that Jordan himself has readily acknowledged. Hell there's other guards like Johnson who have a similar skill set, even if the drop off is enormous.
You can't name another Hall of Fame -- heck, even All Star level player who's even remotely similar to Rodman. The man's game is as unique as, well, as unique as he is. It's not just about counting rebound numbers or you'd just toss Wilt's name into every conversation and be done with it.
On June 04 2014 05:06 Ace wrote: Actually Jordan's scoring skillset is probably more unique than Rodman's rebounding. Kobe isn't really close to Jordan in terms of offensive impact at all.
Rodman's rebounding for his size and build is way more deviant from the mean than Jordan's scoring and efficiency for his.
Actually, no . There hasn't been a player in league history that had such a long outlier scoring career with absurd usage rate. Even crazier is Jordan is a SG and destroyed almost everyone else's best seasons outside of Kareem. From his rookie year he was a high usage, highly accurate mid-range shooter. You just don't see that.
There have been a lot of guards in league history with high usage and great midrange shooting. Jordan is obviously of the best bunch and had the highest usage of any of them, which is impressive. The argument isn't about what's the most impressive. I'm not sure what you're saying I don't see but you're applying an argument to what I'm saying that I didn't make. Usage rate isn't a unique skill set. Jordan's scoring and efficiency with a heavily midrange and athletic based scoring skill set isn't as separated from the pack as Rodman's rebounding rates.
This isn't some knock to Jordan but everytime you mention Jordan as not the #1 of something someone will always say some unrelated crap about Jordan destroying everyone like somehow, someone here is ignorant of Jordan's dominance. That's not the argument. It's purely an acknowledgement of an amazing statistical outlier that is Rodman. It's a matter of "oh, that's interesting," not a competition to talk about how awesome Jordan is.
It really is though. It is rare, even accounting for modern high usage wing play, for a perimeter player to be using up so many possessions for his team and still hitting at an absurd rate. A rate that typically only Centers like Shaq could match. A midrange jumper from MJ was worth a lay up from a star player - that's ultra unique. Even godly midrange shooters like Dirk, Pierce, Wade, Paul can't match his volume.
Some people believe that Kobe is a worse version of Jordan, and that there is no player that can even be described as a "version" of Rodman. Others believe that Jordan was so dominant that Kobe cannot really be described as a version of Jordan either. All I wanted to point out initially was that Rodman is extremely under-appreciated, and that even if you don't think he's "more valuable" or "more unique" (whatever that means) than Jordan, he's at least in the running.
You're overrating Rodman in that case. He did two things very well but a lot of others quite poorly. He was an exceptional role player but he wasn't more valuable than pippen let alone MJ.
On June 04 2014 05:06 Ace wrote: Actually Jordan's scoring skillset is probably more unique than Rodman's rebounding. Kobe isn't really close to Jordan in terms of offensive impact at all.
Rodman's rebounding for his size and build is way more deviant from the mean than Jordan's scoring and efficiency for his.
Actually, no . There hasn't been a player in league history that had such a long outlier scoring career with absurd usage rate. Even crazier is Jordan is a SG and destroyed almost everyone else's best seasons outside of Kareem. From his rookie year he was a high usage, highly accurate mid-range shooter. You just don't see that.
There have been a lot of guards in league history with high usage and great midrange shooting. Jordan is obviously of the best bunch and had the highest usage of any of them, which is impressive. The argument isn't about what's the most impressive. I'm not sure what you're saying I don't see but you're applying an argument to what I'm saying that I didn't make. Usage rate isn't a unique skill set. Jordan's scoring and efficiency with a heavily midrange and athletic based scoring skill set isn't as separated from the pack as Rodman's rebounding rates.
This isn't some knock to Jordan but everytime you mention Jordan as not the #1 of something someone will always say some unrelated crap about Jordan destroying everyone like somehow, someone here is ignorant of Jordan's dominance. That's not the argument. It's purely an acknowledgement of an amazing statistical outlier that is Rodman. It's a matter of "oh, that's interesting," not a competition to talk about how awesome Jordan is.
It really is though. It is rare, even accounting for modern high usage wing play, for a perimeter player to be using up so many possessions for his team and still hitting at an absurd rate. A rate that typically only Centers like Shaq could match. A midrange jumper from MJ was worth a lay up from a star player - that's ultra unique. Even godly midrange shooters like Dirk, Pierce, Wade, Paul can't match his volume.
Also I'm not a Jordan homer.
Being "rare" isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying that Rodman's rebounding is more separated from his peers than Jordan's scoring is from his peers. Jordan's the best scorer ever when you ignore the silly old timer stats, but his scoring is not as separated from other scorers in history as Rodman's rebounding is separated from others in history.
I don't care if you're a Jordan homer or not, you saw something that has been misconstrued as a slight to Jordan's uniqueness and rushed to defend him with arguments that don't address what I'm saying. People are so blinded with Jordan's greatness that you're repeating stuff that I've already addressed and that doesn't really affect the argument.
Both players are one of a kind, that's not the point. Rodman's rebounding is more superior to the next best rebounder than Jordan's scoring is to the next best scorer.
On June 04 2014 05:06 Ace wrote: Actually Jordan's scoring skillset is probably more unique than Rodman's rebounding. Kobe isn't really close to Jordan in terms of offensive impact at all.
Rodman's rebounding for his size and build is way more deviant from the mean than Jordan's scoring and efficiency for his.
On June 04 2014 08:58 RowdierBob wrote: I've watched a lot of Nba since the early 90s and I haven't seen anyone close to Jordan.
Have been a lot of good players since MJ but none remind me of him. LeBron is the most dominant since MJ imo but his game is more like some weird hybrid of magics all round game and Shawn kemps athleticism.
Is this a troll or something? Magic's game is so dissimilar from Jordan's I'm not sure what you're saying.
It's not about being close to Jordan's greatness or whatever. Kobe in his prime is a moderately worse fascimile of Jordan -- this is something that Jordan himself has readily acknowledged. Hell there's other guards like Johnson who have a similar skill set, even if the drop off is enormous.
You can't name another Hall of Fame -- heck, even All Star level player who's even remotely similar to Rodman. The man's game is as unique as, well, as unique as he is. It's not just about counting rebound numbers or you'd just toss Wilt's name into every conversation and be done with it.
Que? I compared LeBron to magic...
My bad. We were just talking about Jordan and Rodman and I kind of had the statement run together because Lebron isn't even close to this conversation.
On June 04 2014 05:06 Ace wrote: Actually Jordan's scoring skillset is probably more unique than Rodman's rebounding. Kobe isn't really close to Jordan in terms of offensive impact at all.
Rodman's rebounding for his size and build is way more deviant from the mean than Jordan's scoring and efficiency for his.
Actually, no . There hasn't been a player in league history that had such a long outlier scoring career with absurd usage rate. Even crazier is Jordan is a SG and destroyed almost everyone else's best seasons outside of Kareem. From his rookie year he was a high usage, highly accurate mid-range shooter. You just don't see that.
There have been a lot of guards in league history with high usage and great midrange shooting. Jordan is obviously of the best bunch and had the highest usage of any of them, which is impressive. The argument isn't about what's the most impressive. I'm not sure what you're saying I don't see but you're applying an argument to what I'm saying that I didn't make. Usage rate isn't a unique skill set. Jordan's scoring and efficiency with a heavily midrange and athletic based scoring skill set isn't as separated from the pack as Rodman's rebounding rates.
This isn't some knock to Jordan but everytime you mention Jordan as not the #1 of something someone will always say some unrelated crap about Jordan destroying everyone like somehow, someone here is ignorant of Jordan's dominance. That's not the argument. It's purely an acknowledgement of an amazing statistical outlier that is Rodman. It's a matter of "oh, that's interesting," not a competition to talk about how awesome Jordan is.
It really is though. It is rare, even accounting for modern high usage wing play, for a perimeter player to be using up so many possessions for his team and still hitting at an absurd rate. A rate that typically only Centers like Shaq could match. A midrange jumper from MJ was worth a lay up from a star player - that's ultra unique. Even godly midrange shooters like Dirk, Pierce, Wade, Paul can't match his volume.
Also I'm not a Jordan homer.
Being "rare" isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying that Rodman's rebounding is more separated from his peers than Jordan's scoring is from his peers. Jordan's the best scorer ever when you ignore the silly old timer stats, but his scoring is not as separated from other scorers in history as Rodman's rebounding is separated from others in history.
I don't care if you're a Jordan homer or not, you saw something that has been misconstrued as a slight to Jordan's uniqueness and rushed to defend him with arguments that don't address what I'm saying. People are so blinded with Jordan's greatness that you're repeating stuff that I've already addressed and that doesn't really affect the argument.
Both players are one of a kind, that's not the point. Rodman's rebounding is more superior to the next best rebounder than Jordan's scoring is to the next best scorer.
On June 04 2014 05:06 Ace wrote: Actually Jordan's scoring skillset is probably more unique than Rodman's rebounding. Kobe isn't really close to Jordan in terms of offensive impact at all.
Rodman's rebounding for his size and build is way more deviant from the mean than Jordan's scoring and efficiency for his.
On June 04 2014 08:58 RowdierBob wrote: I've watched a lot of Nba since the early 90s and I haven't seen anyone close to Jordan.
Have been a lot of good players since MJ but none remind me of him. LeBron is the most dominant since MJ imo but his game is more like some weird hybrid of magics all round game and Shawn kemps athleticism.
Is this a troll or something? Magic's game is so dissimilar from Jordan's I'm not sure what you're saying.
It's not about being close to Jordan's greatness or whatever. Kobe in his prime is a moderately worse fascimile of Jordan -- this is something that Jordan himself has readily acknowledged. Hell there's other guards like Johnson who have a similar skill set, even if the drop off is enormous.
You can't name another Hall of Fame -- heck, even All Star level player who's even remotely similar to Rodman. The man's game is as unique as, well, as unique as he is. It's not just about counting rebound numbers or you'd just toss Wilt's name into every conversation and be done with it.
Que? I compared LeBron to magic...
My bad. We were just talking about Jordan and Rodman and I kind of had the statement run together because Lebron isn't even close to this conversation.
All stats aren't equal though. Rodman pulling down boards is not the same as the influence Jordan had on an offence.
On June 04 2014 05:06 Ace wrote: Actually Jordan's scoring skillset is probably more unique than Rodman's rebounding. Kobe isn't really close to Jordan in terms of offensive impact at all.
Rodman's rebounding for his size and build is way more deviant from the mean than Jordan's scoring and efficiency for his.
Actually, no . There hasn't been a player in league history that had such a long outlier scoring career with absurd usage rate. Even crazier is Jordan is a SG and destroyed almost everyone else's best seasons outside of Kareem. From his rookie year he was a high usage, highly accurate mid-range shooter. You just don't see that.
There have been a lot of guards in league history with high usage and great midrange shooting. Jordan is obviously of the best bunch and had the highest usage of any of them, which is impressive. The argument isn't about what's the most impressive. I'm not sure what you're saying I don't see but you're applying an argument to what I'm saying that I didn't make. Usage rate isn't a unique skill set. Jordan's scoring and efficiency with a heavily midrange and athletic based scoring skill set isn't as separated from the pack as Rodman's rebounding rates.
This isn't some knock to Jordan but everytime you mention Jordan as not the #1 of something someone will always say some unrelated crap about Jordan destroying everyone like somehow, someone here is ignorant of Jordan's dominance. That's not the argument. It's purely an acknowledgement of an amazing statistical outlier that is Rodman. It's a matter of "oh, that's interesting," not a competition to talk about how awesome Jordan is.
It really is though. It is rare, even accounting for modern high usage wing play, for a perimeter player to be using up so many possessions for his team and still hitting at an absurd rate. A rate that typically only Centers like Shaq could match. A midrange jumper from MJ was worth a lay up from a star player - that's ultra unique. Even godly midrange shooters like Dirk, Pierce, Wade, Paul can't match his volume.
Also I'm not a Jordan homer.
Being "rare" isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying that Rodman's rebounding is more separated from his peers than Jordan's scoring is from his peers. Jordan's the best scorer ever when you ignore the silly old timer stats, but his scoring is not as separated from other scorers in history as Rodman's rebounding is separated from others in history.
I don't care if you're a Jordan homer or not, you saw something that has been misconstrued as a slight to Jordan's uniqueness and rushed to defend him with arguments that don't address what I'm saying. People are so blinded with Jordan's greatness that you're repeating stuff that I've already addressed and that doesn't really affect the argument.
Both players are one of a kind, that's not the point. Rodman's rebounding is more superior to the next best rebounder than Jordan's scoring is to the next best scorer.
On June 04 2014 10:35 RowdierBob wrote:
On June 04 2014 09:54 TwoToneTerran wrote:
On June 04 2014 05:06 Ace wrote: Actually Jordan's scoring skillset is probably more unique than Rodman's rebounding. Kobe isn't really close to Jordan in terms of offensive impact at all.
Rodman's rebounding for his size and build is way more deviant from the mean than Jordan's scoring and efficiency for his.
On June 04 2014 08:58 RowdierBob wrote: I've watched a lot of Nba since the early 90s and I haven't seen anyone close to Jordan.
Have been a lot of good players since MJ but none remind me of him. LeBron is the most dominant since MJ imo but his game is more like some weird hybrid of magics all round game and Shawn kemps athleticism.
Is this a troll or something? Magic's game is so dissimilar from Jordan's I'm not sure what you're saying.
It's not about being close to Jordan's greatness or whatever. Kobe in his prime is a moderately worse fascimile of Jordan -- this is something that Jordan himself has readily acknowledged. Hell there's other guards like Johnson who have a similar skill set, even if the drop off is enormous.
You can't name another Hall of Fame -- heck, even All Star level player who's even remotely similar to Rodman. The man's game is as unique as, well, as unique as he is. It's not just about counting rebound numbers or you'd just toss Wilt's name into every conversation and be done with it.
Que? I compared LeBron to magic...
My bad. We were just talking about Jordan and Rodman and I kind of had the statement run together because Lebron isn't even close to this conversation.
All stats aren't equal though. Rodman pulling down boards is not the same as the influence Jordan had on an offence.
I'm not saying it isn't important but it's a difficult stat to compare against scoring, which I would argue requires a much more diverse skill set.
I never said Jordan's offense wasn't more valuable or important. You keep making strawmen and I keep having to tell you that that's not the point. I never said Rebounding > Scoring. I never said one was over or under rated. I don't know how often I have to repeat myself but you are seriously harping on a point I'm not making.
It's not difficult to compare the rate of difference between rebounding and scoring.
There are a lot more skills involved in scoring. That's also not the point. Whatever skills Jordan has did not separate him from the next best scorers to the degree that Rodman's does to the next best rebounders. That's all -- Rodman is the most statistically errant and dominant player of a particular skill set.
Put it this way, we are far more likely to see someone in the future who can replicate Jordan's scoring ability than we are to find someone who can replicate Rodman's rebounding ability if you take all players in the history of the sport as the sample size. This is because Rodman's specialty is much, much more divergent than Jordan's. That might be because scoring, like you say, is a lot harder to get better and better at and requires learning a lot more techniques and skills. But this is never what I was arguing.
Dream scenario: Spurs up 3-2. Last seconds of game 6 and Ray Allen takes the game winning three only to have it get blocked. Spurs win on a blocked Ray Allen three pointer.
On June 05 2014 10:13 nooboon wrote: Head: Heat Heart: Spurs
Dream scenario: Spurs up 3-2. Last seconds of game 6 and Ray Allen takes the game winning three only to have it get blocked. Spurs win on a blocked Ray Allen three pointer.
On June 06 2014 12:04 AgentW wrote: Allen looks athletic, something I don't even remember from his Boston days. Have to go back to Seattle to recall something like this.
Those are some memories though, right? I know pretty much all players change their game as they age, but damn Allen used to be a slasher, and posted up a bunch(although his jump shot was deadly back then too).
On June 06 2014 12:14 Doraemon wrote: 20 turnovers from spurs? geeez. that's very uncharacteristic of them
Seems to be a lot more 'silly' passing from both teams than usual in this game 1. I think the pressure to score on every possession is making some players force passes that are really tight and not worth it, leading to these high TO numbers.
Edit: LeBron grabbing his lowerback/hip area? Hopefully just a cramp and nothing serious.
Honestly, the series seems to completely rest on how well danny green performs. Last year he hit nothing towards the end of the series and they lost all those games.
On June 06 2014 12:27 Itsmedudeman wrote: Honestly, the series seems to completely rest on how well danny green performs.
That's an incredibly simplistic way to look at the series. There's plenty of bench players that can step up for the Spurs. If anything the series depends much more on Parker's health and Ginobili's play (he killed us in 6 & 7 last year).
On June 06 2014 12:27 Itsmedudeman wrote: Honestly, the series seems to completely rest on how well danny green performs.
That's an incredibly simplistic way to look at the series. There's plenty of bench players that can step up for the Spurs. If anything the series depends much more on Parker's health and Ginobili's play (he killed us in 6 & 7 last year).
Ironically Lebron can't overcome the heat...
It's 100% on Ginobili imo. I mean, he might not carry but hes definitely the most clutch player on Spurs roster for like a decade already
On June 06 2014 12:36 krndandaman wrote: holy shit 90 degrees? im amazed someone can even play those minutes
F°, doesnt seem so high to me :x
Yes it is when you're playing major minutes in the first game of the championship. Some can take high temperatures better than others.
yea yea it's hot, and they certainly not used to this, but Lebron isn't even the player that played the most (when he stopped) :p and man, hes quite athletic too
anyway, I hope it's nothing serious, wouldnt want the spurs to win without him
On June 06 2014 12:36 krndandaman wrote: holy shit 90 degrees? im amazed someone can even play those minutes
F°, doesnt seem so high to me :x
Yes it is when you're playing major minutes in the first game of the championship. Some can take high temperatures better than others.
yea yea it's hot, and they certainly not used to this, but Lebron isn't even the player that played the most (when he stopped) :p and man, hes quite athletic too
anyway, I hope it's nothing serious, wouldnt want the spurs to win without him
I'm not sure what you're getting at here? LeBron was at 33 minutes, Parker was at 34(and was reportedly having some trouble as well, just clearly not as much). How your body handles heat is about a lot more than just 'being athletic' as well. LeBron is one of the largest men on that court, and has a legendary motor(which may be why he has suffered from cramping in the past as well).
On June 06 2014 12:36 krndandaman wrote: holy shit 90 degrees? im amazed someone can even play those minutes
F°, doesnt seem so high to me :x
Yes it is when you're playing major minutes in the first game of the championship. Some can take high temperatures better than others.
yea yea it's hot, and they certainly not used to this, but Lebron isn't even the player that played the most (when he stopped) :p and man, hes quite athletic too
anyway, I hope it's nothing serious, wouldnt want the spurs to win without him
He nearly played the most minutes through the first 3 quarters and has to carry a lot of the Heat load. The fact that he is affected by harsh conditions makes sense as well. Carrying around 260(?)lbs with his playstyle is a gigantic effort, even more so in that heat. He looked absolutely dead on the bench there.
Severe cramps is nothing you can play through either. It's not a real Injury but you just can not move when you have them. It just doesn't work.
On June 06 2014 12:27 Itsmedudeman wrote: Honestly, the series seems to completely rest on how well danny green performs.
That's an incredibly simplistic way to look at the series. There's plenty of bench players that can step up for the Spurs. If anything the series depends much more on Parker's health and Ginobili's play (he killed us in 6 & 7 last year).
Ironically Lebron can't overcome the heat...
Danny green has hit the most 3s and has one of the highest 3 point % between all the players. His impact is huge because 3 point shooting can be really streaky.
Does Lebron have some sort of physical condition that makes him more susceptible to cramps or do we just notice his cramps more because he's Lebron?
I refuse to believe it's because he works harder than EVERYBODY else on the court. Granted, the Heat need a lot more from Lebron than the Spurs need from any of their members.
Also, 22 TOs? That's def going to improve drastically next game.
On June 06 2014 13:27 zulu_nation8 wrote: it's just hydration, can happen to anyone.
Cramping is a lot more than 'just hydration' but I'm not one of LeBron's doctors so I can't comment on his personal situation. His size is not a negligible factor.
He's 260 pounds, played the most minutes up to that point of anyone, and it's the NBA Finals. You can't just drink water and expect to not cramp up. It isn't that easy.
The energy needed to support 260 pounds of muscle is just way higher than what other players need. Especially with his speed and explosiveness. Lebron wouldn't be able to support that body if he wasn't a freak of nature, but even he has his limits.
On June 06 2014 13:21 On_Slaught wrote: Does Lebron have some sort of physical condition that makes him more susceptible to cramps or do we just notice his cramps more because he's Lebron?
I refuse to believe it's because he works harder than EVERYBODY else on the court. Granted, the Heat need a lot more from Lebron than the Spurs need from any of their members.
Also, 22 TOs? That's def going to improve drastically next game.
Being huge and playing way too much this regular season. Also whoever said cramps are not a real injury is insane. You can tear a muscle fairly badly if you try to pay on them.
On June 06 2014 13:21 On_Slaught wrote: Does Lebron have some sort of physical condition that makes him more susceptible to cramps or do we just notice his cramps more because he's Lebron?
I refuse to believe it's because he works harder than EVERYBODY else on the court. Granted, the Heat need a lot more from Lebron than the Spurs need from any of their members.
Also, 22 TOs? That's def going to improve drastically next game.
Being huge and playing way too much this regular season. Also whoever said cramps are not a real injury is insane. You can tear a muscle fairly badly if you try to pay on them.
Yea most likely it was the right decision to bench him. Better loose game 1 then lose LeBron for the series.
People praise Kobe for making 2 free throws and walking off with a torn archiles heel but every doctor will say you this was just stupid.
Better look stupid then loosing the finals because of your ego.
On June 06 2014 16:37 MooMooMugi wrote: Rumor has it Lebron is still complaining about the heat
Well, rumors are dumb but he's got a pretty legit gripe really. Talk radio is hilarious on this subject by the way. He only had to be carried off the court, clearly Lebron doesn't want to win enough etc etc.
Hopefully game 2 is a little less turnover prone, but it was really nice to watch two teams that can actually play good basketball both ways. Also, I don't know how many noticed but there was a huge section at the end of the game where they played without t.v. breaks and it was so much more enjoyable to watch.
On June 07 2014 02:33 farvacola wrote: I love it when shit like this happens because non-athletes stick out so clearly; heat-induced athletic cramps can be incredibly debilitating.
What really perplexed me is spo putting LeBron back in. Even if you think they were under control, cramps need longer than 3 minutes to settle down. You need to let the things settle down. It's like chugging another beer right after puking.
On June 07 2014 02:33 farvacola wrote: I love it when shit like this happens because non-athletes stick out so clearly; heat-induced athletic cramps can be incredibly debilitating.
What really perplexed me is spo putting LeBron back in. Even if you think they were under control, cramps need longer than 3 minutes to settle down. You need to let the things settle down. It's like chugging another beer right after puking.
Hey man, you gotta rehydrate.
But yeah, cramps are actually really dangerous. Not only are your muscles at risk of tearing or damage when they're that stressed, the hampered movement can make you clumsy and injure yourself. One of my good friends was playing basketball, got a leg cramp and tried to play through it, then he landed funny and tore his ACL.
The gatorade twitter was interesting last night. A weird game, but still though, I think for Lebron to cramp out the way he did made the the whole situation a lot more "enticing" for all the vultures.
On June 07 2014 05:14 darthfoley wrote: To suggest that LeBron should have "played through" intense cramping is laughable. It's literally impossible to play basketball when you can't walk.
For sure, but I am really surprised Spo is getting such a pass for putting him back in. We don't know how badly LBJ's cramps re-acted up, but the reality is that the Heat could have lost the series for those 30 seconds of trying to steal game 1 if he tore his Calf/Achilles/Hamstring, which is a real possibility when playing on cramped muscles as bad as the ones Lebron's look like.
On June 07 2014 09:20 zoLo wrote: Poor LeBron. The man can't do anything without people criticizing him, lol.
as if he even remotely cares about the opinions of uneducated sheep. As soon as he felt the cramps coming though he knew he was done. It will be interesting to see how they will prevent this from happening again, atleast until they get back to miami where they will make it cooler than usual, and in game 2 the air conditioning probably won't be "fixed"
On June 07 2014 09:20 zoLo wrote: Poor LeBron. The man can't do anything without people criticizing him, lol.
as if he even remotely cares about the opinions of uneducated sheep. As soon as he felt the cramps coming though he knew he was done. It will be interesting to see how they will prevent this from happening again, atleast until they get back to miami where they will make it cooler than usual, and in game 2 the air conditioning probably won't be "fixed"
Forget air condition... San Antonio is turning on the HEATERS game 2. LOL
Lebron will be sweating from the initial jump ball.
On June 07 2014 09:20 zoLo wrote: Poor LeBron. The man can't do anything without people criticizing him, lol.
as if he even remotely cares about the opinions of uneducated sheep. As soon as he felt the cramps coming though he knew he was done. It will be interesting to see how they will prevent this from happening again, atleast until they get back to miami where they will make it cooler than usual, and in game 2 the air conditioning probably won't be "fixed"
I know you're only half serious, but the ATnT center has annouced they have fixed the AC and are now monitoring it very closely.
On June 07 2014 09:20 zoLo wrote: Poor LeBron. The man can't do anything without people criticizing him, lol.
as if he even remotely cares about the opinions of uneducated sheep. As soon as he felt the cramps coming though he knew he was done. It will be interesting to see how they will prevent this from happening again, atleast until they get back to miami where they will make it cooler than usual, and in game 2 the air conditioning probably won't be "fixed"
Uneducated? that's a cheap shot man, we all know he came straight out of high school.
On June 07 2014 09:20 zoLo wrote: Poor LeBron. The man can't do anything without people criticizing him, lol.
as if he even remotely cares about the opinions of uneducated sheep. As soon as he felt the cramps coming though he knew he was done. It will be interesting to see how they will prevent this from happening again, atleast until they get back to miami where they will make it cooler than usual, and in game 2 the air conditioning probably won't be "fixed"
Uneducated? that's a cheap shot man, we all know he came straight out of high school.
Straight out of high school and making WAY more money than your average college graduate.
Obv you can play through cramps but no one cramp is the same. Some you can just stretch them out and keep going whereas others are completely debilitating.
Does anyone really think LeBron quit that game when he could have kept going?
On June 07 2014 09:20 zoLo wrote: Poor LeBron. The man can't do anything without people criticizing him, lol.
as if he even remotely cares about the opinions of uneducated sheep. As soon as he felt the cramps coming though he knew he was done. It will be interesting to see how they will prevent this from happening again, atleast until they get back to miami where they will make it cooler than usual, and in game 2 the air conditioning probably won't be "fixed"
Uneducated? that's a cheap shot man, we all know he came straight out of high school.
Straight out of high school and making WAY more money than your average college graduate.
Amount of money made does not a smart person make.
I find that article funny because KG "from that point, always took responsibility" and as a result was on a mediocre team for most of his career before bailing and getting a championship immediately.
Good guy Flip Saunders subtly telling KLove to leave so he can win.
On June 07 2014 02:33 farvacola wrote: I love it when shit like this happens because non-athletes stick out so clearly; heat-induced athletic cramps can be incredibly debilitating.
What really perplexed me is spo putting LeBron back in. Even if you think they were under control, cramps need longer than 3 minutes to settle down. You need to let the things settle down. It's like chugging another beer right after puking.
It must be poor judgment from their team doctor i suppose.
On June 08 2014 23:34 ketomai wrote: I find that article funny because KG "from that point, always took responsibility" and as a result was on a mediocre team for most of his career before bailing and getting a championship immediately.
Good guy Flip Saunders subtly telling KLove to leave so he can win.
using KG is such a bad example. "Don't be frustrated like KG, he only was traded away and won a championship!"
On June 09 2014 11:46 usedtocare wrote: Ginobili has been amazing at shitting important games away in recent years.
Ginobili didn't "shit" anything away. The game was "shit" away by shitty FT shooting and bad play from Leonard and sub par play from Green, yet again. If Lebron doesn't go beast mode in the second half, the Spurs win comfortably.
On June 09 2014 11:46 usedtocare wrote: Ginobili has been amazing at shitting important games away in recent years.
Ginobili didn't "shit" anything away. The game was "shit" away by shitty FT shooting and bad play from Leonard and sub par play from Green, yet again. If Lebron doesn't go beast mode in the second half, the Spurs win comfortably.
ugh the fucking free throw shooting.
I just don't get how a team like San Antonio that is so professional and fundamentally sound at everything else in the game can have multiple games in the finals where their fucking free throws kill them.
On June 09 2014 12:56 Ace wrote: because being fundamentally sound doesn't matter
My point is about emphasis. You'd think a team that puts so much emphasis on the basics would have one of the absolute most basic things mastered like OKC does.
You'd think it'd be something they'd put an enormous emphasis on, not something that would end up being a viable weakness.
On June 09 2014 19:17 DystopiaX wrote: It's kind of ridiculous how hard Lebron is carrying the Heat so far in this series. The games haven't even been close whenever he's on the bench.
Just piggybacking off this:
Miami with Lebron on the court: 111.8 ORTG, 103.5 DRTG, +8.3 Net Miami with Lebron off the court: 95.7 ORTG, 147.8 DRTG, -52.2 Net
That's why you have to take On/Off numbers with a grain of salt in low minutes. It's literally impossible for Miami's offense to sink to that level since they actually killed San Antonio with Lebron on the bench until the 4th quarter of Game 1. San Antonio's 80% shooting in 7 minutes jacked their ORTG way up, ala Mike Miller having a 200+ ORTG in one Game of the 2013 Finals.
That being said this is why you gotta be careful with these things. This is Miami's Lebron PO run ON/OFF numbers so far: (From RealGM)
Miami PS (17 G):
Lebron ON: 115.8 ORTG, 105.8 DRTG, +10.0 Net
Lebron OFF: 111.4 ORTG, 119.5 DRTG, -8.1 Net
+18.0 Net ON/OFF
Without Lebron Miami's offense is still near the top of the league this playoffs, but the defense is horrible. This mirrors Game 1 with Miami playing well until the end where the defense is what really got destroyed by Lebron being off. Their offense without him has been pretty good, just not holy shit historically spectacular.
Watching the NBAtv 1984 draft documentary LIVE NOW. About to go into the Sam Bowie vs. Jordan argument. This goin to be good!!! Fun facts: Jordan never took a draft photo with commish Stern. Stockton was contemplating playing pro in Europe after his senior year in Gonzaga, NBA was never in his thoughts. Barkley, in a team meeting, told his sixers teammates, who had just recently won the NBA championship, that the offense should be designed around him!
People ask me why I support the Heat instead of the Spurs. The Spurs are "nice guys", "all teamwork", and "play basketball the way it should be played."
I support the Heat because I think that LeBron could be one of the top-5 players all-time, and I like watching greatness.
I got into the NBA right at the end of Michael Jordan's prime, when he tore out the heart of the Jazz with that 17-foot jumper over Brian Russell. I didn't appreciate at the time the context of the moment, how difficult that shot really was and why Jordan was so great for making it.
And that's why I like watching LeBron. Watching him carry the Heat over the Spurs is a feat that is 10/10 in terms of difficulty, one of the great individual efforts in the NBA that I can't imagine anyone else doing right now. During game 2, LeBron stepped up his game to a crazy extent, demanding the ball in the second half and then pummeling the excellent defense of the Spurs. Could Kevin Durant, Chris Paul, Kevin Love, LaMarcus Aldridge etc. do this? No way.
It's a joy to watch a genius at work, and sometimes you just have to appreciate the art instead of critiquing little flaws or getting caught up in the drama.
The Spurs have already whipped the teams of Dirk Nowitzki, LaMarcus Aldridge, and Kevin Durant. The Trailblazers and the Thunder couldn't beat the Spurs a single time at home.
I was speaking in terms of guys carrying teams on their back against the Spurs: Quite a few star players have. They just don't win the series due to other factors.
Lebron James has significantly more help than most of those guys too though. Not to say Lebron isn't great but saying he's carrying against the Spurs and no other player could do it in his situation is false, yeah Dirk Durant etc lost to them but they didn't have the Heat roster either.
On June 09 2014 19:19 Scarecrow wrote: Kawhi fouling out sucks, several shitty calls on him in the first half. Makes it even harder to guard lebron when he's in foul trouble.
Hope Chalmers gets suspended, that elbow was bullshit.
On June 09 2014 11:49 usedtocare wrote: Game felt underwhelming. James scored at will, didn't even need beastmode.
You must've missed the third quarter.
No, I watched it all. Him and Wade started off slow, very likely trying to get everyone else involved. Gradually Lebron starts stepping in every time Miami fell behind, taking it upon himself to carry. He did seem to score at will, you can rewatch the highlights of course but it never felt like much of a struggle for him. It felt like Miami could definitely play better yet they comfortably cruised to a win at the end.
What could Spurs do different? Maybe get Green involved. Maybe hit more layups. But overall what we saw from them is what we are going to get, I don't see any surprises there.
On June 09 2014 19:19 Scarecrow wrote: Kawhi fouling out sucks, several shitty calls on him in the first half. Makes it even harder to guard lebron when he's in foul trouble.
Hope Chalmers gets suspended, that elbow was bullshit.
On June 09 2014 11:49 usedtocare wrote: Game felt underwhelming. James scored at will, didn't even need beastmode.
You must've missed the third quarter.
No, I watched it all. Him and Wade started off slow, very likely trying to get everyone else involved. Gradually Lebron starts stepping in every time Miami fell behind, taking it upon himself to carry. He did seem to score at will, you can rewatch the highlights of course but it never felt like much of a struggle for him. It felt like Miami could definitely play better yet they comfortably cruised to a win at the end.
What could Spurs do different? Maybe get Green involved. Maybe hit more layups. But overall what we saw from them is what we are going to get, I don't see any surprises there.
Are you high? Miami won by TWO pts and the Spurs missed 4 consecutive ft's. Bosh hit a huge corner 3. If that's comfortably cruising I can't wait for your analysis of a 5 point Miami blowout. Also Lebron hit so many contested jumpers in the third and carried them the entire quarter (still dead even with him in HoF mode). Just because it didn't look hard doesn't mean he wasn't giving 100%.
Spurs can definitely play better (they shot well under their usual %) with several key players in foul trouble early. It's not like Miami has an intimidating home court either.
On June 09 2014 19:19 Scarecrow wrote: Kawhi fouling out sucks, several shitty calls on him in the first half. Makes it even harder to guard lebron when he's in foul trouble.
Hope Chalmers gets suspended, that elbow was bullshit.
On June 09 2014 11:49 usedtocare wrote: Game felt underwhelming. James scored at will, didn't even need beastmode.
You must've missed the third quarter.
No, I watched it all. Him and Wade started off slow, very likely trying to get everyone else involved. Gradually Lebron starts stepping in every time Miami fell behind, taking it upon himself to carry. He did seem to score at will, you can rewatch the highlights of course but it never felt like much of a struggle for him. It felt like Miami could definitely play better yet they comfortably cruised to a win at the end.
What could Spurs do different? Maybe get Green involved. Maybe hit more layups. But overall what we saw from them is what we are going to get, I don't see any surprises there.
Yea, no one has any idea what game you watched. LeBron went beast in the 3Q and the Spurs still outscored the Heat by one.
On June 10 2014 11:10 SwARmZzz wrote: Did Donald Sterling really sacrifice 2 billion dollars just to prove a point? Wow, this guy...
He's old, what's he gonna do with his money when he's dead? Not that it seems like he has an iota of a chance to 'win' anything other than a sum of money from his own trust-fund.
Also with the NYK's that job was obviously Fisher's to take after Kerr decided he didn't want to spend umpteen seasons capped out with no picks. There's no reason to think Fisher will be any better/worse than Kidd or Mark Jackson were at this point. (I think I'd probably rather have Fisher than F.Saunders from a long-term perspective). That team is going to be awful no matter who coaches it. It's the same situation as with the Lakers this past year; a shitty roster isn't going to impress even if zombie Auerbach rises from the dead to coach. The angst will be glorious. Their potential is mediocre and capped-out with Melo, or terrible and capped-out without him, it should be high comedy.
Not sure how ESPN is adjusting for bench competition but: Fisher not being horrible on defense + low minutes per game + largely replacing injured Westbrook/Jackson in lineups could lead to a high DRPM.
On June 09 2014 19:19 Scarecrow wrote: Kawhi fouling out sucks, several shitty calls on him in the first half. Makes it even harder to guard lebron when he's in foul trouble.
Hope Chalmers gets suspended, that elbow was bullshit.
On June 09 2014 11:49 usedtocare wrote: Game felt underwhelming. James scored at will, didn't even need beastmode.
You must've missed the third quarter.
[...]
What could Spurs do different? Maybe get Green involved. Maybe hit more layups. But overall what we saw from them is what we are going to get, I don't see any surprises there.
Kawhiet Leonard fouled out (and was in foul trouble the whole game), the spurs were 12 of 20 from the stripe, and they seemed to lose a bunch of momentum after TP was elbowed in the gut by Wario Chalmers. All of this on its own could numerically account for the late two point loss.
I'm not gonna argue about LBJ monster performance, the point has been made already, and the numbers are there to back it up.
"Another stat: The Pelicans were +6.2 points on defense per 100 poss’s when Gordon was OFF the floor vs. when he was ON, which was the second-largest bad-D deficit I could find for any individual player in the league.
Last stat: New Orleans out-scored its opponents when Gordon was OUT; New Orleans was out-scored by 7.1 points per 100 poss’s when he was IN the game."
It hurts my soul that the Pelicans are paying Gordon so much to be so very bad.
Knee injury wrecked his career, and he wanted OUT of New Orleans and they still wouldn't let him go. Thank god the Dell Demps/Jeff Bowers era is over. The team is still probably fucked though.
Interesting read, I rarely have the patience to finish these articles. Guy surely sounds genuine but still naive at times. He's one of those "diamonds in the rough" that he blamed Whitlock for going through trying to find some potential. His head is full of ideas but he needs to filter them more, it kind of reflects in nearly pretentiously chaotic structure of this piece.
This is a bright example of "truth lies somewhere in the middle", but it is still a rather well-executed attempt at dismantling one of the more "influential" writers around - something Whitlock himself made a career out of.
Ten quick ones from Leonard. Miami will get their's, but a lead is a lead, no matter the time. Miami has to prove they can clean up their ball security so they can make this a game.
EDIT: Weird zone like doubling in LeBron from SA, with Leonard hanging around the baseline, waiting for the drive after the switch. Anyone seen that before?
Spurs pushing the lead back up after the Heat closed it a bit, something that hasn't happened this series since the very end of game 1.
Edit: 13 of 15, 4 of 4 from three in the first quarter. Wow. Oh and 13 FTA as well(OMG but the games are rigged, the Heat get all the calls, NBA wants LeBron to eclipse Jordan!).
they are hitting some amazing shots. Reminds of Dallas 2011 when Jason Kidd was hitting near half court 3s with the shot clock at 2 and a hand in his face.
On June 11 2014 10:57 rei wrote: why don't the heats pressure the pass? they have to get up on them so they can't have clear line of sight to pass..
They can, but the problem is when you get in the penalty early (high James Jones) you are kinda fucked if you do that. Little room for error. Also Monty McCutcheon is known for calling touch fouls. Good luck with that.
I agree. Should Miami somehow hold SA to 50, they need to score the 71 right back. It's too much. They basically have to keep the Spurs to like 40, which seems ridiculous at this point.
See that start actually kind of emphasizes exactly what I mean. Quick 6-0 run, that brings it to 15. They had it down to 14 with 2 minutes and change before SA finished strong, taking it back above 20. Such a big difference in mentality to have this quick start bring it to 15 instead of single digits.
Basketball is the one sport where I'm apprehensive when my team has a huge lead against a quality opponent. Runs are so rampant in the sport that no lead is safe. This one definitely doesn't feel safe. 24min is a long time.
This has shockingly happened almost entirely without LeBron doing anything. He's like 2-2-1 stat line in this 3rd and on the bench for that 10-0 run.
Heat with a consistent 25 points a quarter, would need to hold the Spurs to 14 to force OT if that continues. Defense showed up, but the offense needs to put together a big quarter with a better pace(but then that probably helps the Spurs score more too). Still a tough road to climb.
I feel like Miami lost the series tonight. I don't see them beating the Spurs @ SA in game 7, and I don't see them beating them 3 games in a row either. It doesn't have to work that way but it's how I see it.
Obviously if they win it'll just be an NBA conspiracy anyways =p
Ain't nothing Heat could have done tonight. When a team shoots 75%+ in a half... well, that's just ridiculous. Spurs didn't have a better game plan and the Heat didn't have bad execution, Spurs just hit their shots at a godlike percentage.
On June 11 2014 12:41 CakeSauc3 wrote: Ain't nothing Heat could have done tonight. When a team shoots 75%+ in a half... well, that's just ridiculous. Spurs didn't have a better game plan and the Heat didn't have bad execution, Spurs just hit their shots at a godlike percentage.
They could've had less than 20 turnovers, and actually had a working transition offense(something they're known for, although to be fair-ish that is largely based on the other team missing shots =p).
Miami's actually had a good amount of transition opportunities. They just blew them if the ball wasn't in Lebron or Wade's hands. Outside of Lewis and Birdman the other guys were disastrous at times. Chalmers by far killed Miami the worst. Just amateur level decision making with the ball and no effort defense.
Kawhi neutered Bron. Absolutely fucking amazing performance, one of the best Ive seen. It seems like series rest on the outcome of this matchup, if today was not a fluke on Leonards part and can be at least partially replicated - Lebron will have to work harder than ever. Also i loved Green micd up. Amazing how Spurs buy into their team model
On June 11 2014 12:59 rei wrote: I always thought the American philosophy is the less pass the less turnover. But damn look at the spurs, every single position there are 10+ passes.
It helps when almost everyone on the team has been there for 3+ years.
On June 11 2014 12:59 rei wrote: I always thought the American philosophy is the less pass the less turnover. But damn look at the spurs, every single position there are 10+ passes.
It helps when almost everyone on the team has been there for 3+ years.
The Spurs also heavily favor Euro players, just look at their roster.
On June 11 2014 13:12 Jerubaal wrote: Every game in this series feels like a must win.
On June 11 2014 12:59 rei wrote: I always thought the American philosophy is the less pass the less turnover. But damn look at the spurs, every single position there are 10+ passes.
It helps when almost everyone on the team has been there for 3+ years.
The Spurs also heavily favor Euro players, just look at their roster.
Are you suggesting that Euro players pass the ball better? Even if I were to accept that, it would still require coaching and a system.
I don't watch Euroleague but its very conceivable that players in Europe learn to pass the ball better and rely less on individual skill.
Anyhow, I think the key to this series is Boris Diaw. The Spurs' defense is not as good with Diaw on the floor as opposed to Splitter, but the offense is astronomically better. This can be seen not only in the games in the finals and the playoffs, but throughout the entire regular season as well. Aside from being a very adept offensive player, able to score in a variety of ways as well as being a brilliant passer, his presence gives the Spurs superior spacing on the floor which allow other players better opportunities to score.
I've liked Diaw since he was excellent on the Phoenix Suns, and even in Charlotte when Larry Brown was the coach he was also very good. When the Bobcats completely fell apart after Brown left Diaw declined in production and more or less quit on the team. The fact remains though, that he was an excellent player and he's been an incredible pick-up for the Spurs. It's actually surprising to me how long it has taken Pop to completely integrate Diaw into the Spurs' system and benefit from his many talents, especially considering he is perfect in the Spurs' system.
The Spurs could have been up 3-0 if they had managed to make their free throws in game 2. The Heat are at their best when the pressure is on them though so we'll see what happens in game 4. I pick the Spurs to win it this year however.
On June 11 2014 13:12 Jerubaal wrote: Every game in this series feels like a must win.
On June 11 2014 12:59 rei wrote: I always thought the American philosophy is the less pass the less turnover. But damn look at the spurs, every single position there are 10+ passes.
It helps when almost everyone on the team has been there for 3+ years.
The Spurs also heavily favor Euro players, just look at their roster.
Are you suggesting that Euro players pass the ball better? Even if I were to accept that, it would still require coaching and a system.
From what I've seen of Euro teams they seem to emphasize team play over star power, but my comment was more directed to Rei's American philosophy thing, just pointing out that the Spurs are perhaps the least "American" team in the league at least based on the roster. I am not suggesting that the Spurs coaching/culture has nothing to do with the way they play basketball.
Spurs are rumored to be hiring Ettore Messina as an assistant coach for next year. He's obviously a huge name in Europe and this could be the next head coach of the Spurs if true. They have a very European style of basketball now so this would seem to be a great match. With Bud and Brett having moved on there is no ready successor on the Spurs' coaching staff so this is a very interesting move. Good acquisition by the Spurs in my opinion.
EDIT : Apparently RC denied this rumor but who knows really.
In before a long pro-euro post from that French dude Milesteg =P....
And people need to realize that the reality of this series is the best team going against the best player. Spurs need to keep up their great passing/teamwork to win.
Kawhi had a great game though. And the Heat need to find where they left Mario Chalmers at.
The Spurs had an exceptionally good game to pull that win off, so I think the series is still very very even. A few bad games in the near future and the Heat will be up 3-2.
Amazing offense from the Spurs that game. It's definitely not something that can be expected again though, and it certainly doesn't change the complexion of the series. These are still two very evenly-matched teams and this series is far from over. Let's not forget that the Heat still managed to get the lead down to 7 in the second half even with the Spurs having a historic, insane first half.
On June 12 2014 04:09 XaI)CyRiC wrote: Amazing offense from the Spurs that game. It's definitely not something that can be expected again though, and it certainly doesn't change the complexion of the series. These are still two very evenly-matched teams and this series is far from over. Let's not forget that the Heat still managed to get the lead down to 7 in the second half even with the Spurs having a historic, insane first half.
Yea, but the third quarter-- when the Heat made its run-- was also when SA shot less than 33%FG. I'm pretty sure SA was 5-17 for 13 points in the 3Q? For a team like SA, you can't really expect that too often either.
I feel like any time the Spurs have a good statistical game, people rush out to say how unsustainable it is. Well, it's been going like this for a while. It may not happen every game, but it seems pretty common. It's at least as good analysis as saying that Lebron will magic wins out of his butt.
Speaking of, I absolutely cringe every time Bill Simmons says "the team with the best player usually wins".
On June 12 2014 07:50 Adrian_mx wrote: Ill be so happy if spurs take it. Heat need to be sat off their high horse
Sssh, they like to think they are actually the underdogs.
Last year the Spurs and Heat traded wins. Spurs won games 1, 3, 5. Heat won games 2, 4, 6. I wouldn't be surprised if that happens again this year. Only this year game 7 would be in San Antonio instead of Miami.
On June 13 2014 07:18 AgentW wrote: The Heat are a mortal lock to win tonight.
Joey Crawford is reffing.
I honestly dont know why the NBA does this. Do they not understand how bad this looks, even if there is no fix? Joey Crawford should NEVER ref an important Spurs game. EVER.
On June 13 2014 07:18 AgentW wrote: The Heat are a mortal lock to win tonight.
Joey Crawford is reffing.
I honestly dont know why the NBA does this. Do they not understand how bad this looks, even if there is no fix? Joey Crawford should NEVER ref an important Spurs game. EVER.
I'm just glad the SA roleplayers are actually showing up on the road. Has been a huge problem in the past and that hasn't been the case last game and so far in this one.
My problem is that it seems painfully unfunny (black people like hip hop and basketball hurr durr as the punchline) Weird to see Douglas I'm reminded he's on the heat every time he gets minutes but forget right after cause he never plays
On June 13 2014 11:07 ticklishmusic wrote: This looks like another game where Miami fans start leaving early... though we can't discount the Joey Crawford effect kicking in later.
It's still the first half the heat outplayed the spurs second half last game and the lead isn't 20 points yet either it's too early to call it even if you want to blame the refs later
Don't even blame the crowd for booing the heat haven't just been playing bad they've been playing lazy too no one boxing out or going for the rebound on that putback settling for contested jumpers and shit. It's frustrating cause the heat are doing this to themselves.
That Lebron three though. God, if he didn't make that, I'd honestly think the game would be over, but with it, the Heats still have a fighting chance. It's 19 right now, which is do-able for them.
How does he know to power up for that dunk though? I mean yes, they will jump to fight for rebounds, but that was not a rebound-leap, that was a I'm-slamming-this-ball leap.
On June 13 2014 11:16 Elurie wrote: Leonard was like "In your face!"
How does he know to power up for that dunk though? I mean yes, they will jump to fight for rebounds, but that was not a rebound-leap, that was a I'm-slamming-this-ball leap.
On June 13 2014 11:16 Elurie wrote: Leonard was like "In your face!"
How does he know to power up for that dunk though? I mean yes, they will jump to fight for rebounds, but that was not a rebound-leap, that was a I'm-slamming-this-ball leap.
I think when you're that big and quick, things just happen a bit slower. He is so athletic, he can react where you or I cannot.
On June 13 2014 11:16 Elurie wrote: Leonard was like "In your face!"
How does he know to power up for that dunk though? I mean yes, they will jump to fight for rebounds, but that was not a rebound-leap, that was a I'm-slamming-this-ball leap.
I think when you're that big and quick, things just happen a bit slower. He is so athletic, he can react where you or I cannot.
He had no one around him to contest him for the rebound so he naturally went for the put back dunk. It's should be the same thing for anyone who's ever played sports. You will jump differently when you expect or don't expect contact in the air.
On June 13 2014 11:16 Elurie wrote: Leonard was like "In your face!"
How does he know to power up for that dunk though? I mean yes, they will jump to fight for rebounds, but that was not a rebound-leap, that was a I'm-slamming-this-ball leap.
I think when you're that big and quick, things just happen a bit slower. He is so athletic, he can react where you or I cannot.
He had no one around him to contest him for the rebound so he naturally went for the put back dunk. It's should be the same thing for anyone who's ever played sports. You will jump differently when you expect or don't expect contact in the air.
That's fair, I just have never been blessed with the opportunity to play above the rim. Didn't win that lottery
Stupid spoiled heat fans... Yea your team is playing bad, but still doesn't deserve boos, especially in the finals. Also considering Lebron has the ultimate decision to stay or not...
On June 13 2014 12:12 zulu_nation8 wrote: thing about making 20 pt come backs is you gotta at least have someone who can shoot 3s, no ones hot on miami
That was crazy. In game 3 I felt like the heat were just atrocious on defense a lot and that helped the Spurs to a historic shooting night, but this game, they were just mega-aggressive and absolutely flawless on offense. Little the Heat could do. One more game for th Spurs!
i almost feel bad for hating heat fans after hearing the "let's go heat" chant at the very end of the game. shows that not all of miami fans are the biggest fair weather assholes out there. almost.
On June 13 2014 13:03 wussleeQ wrote: i almost feel bad for hating heat fans after hearing the "let's go heat" chant at the very end of the game. shows that not all of miami fans are the biggest fair weather assholes out there. almost.
the ones who stayed until that point are the good ones though
kawhi leonard dodges out of having to talk postgame again. if he plays well the next game, there's no way he can avoid it then though
On June 13 2014 13:03 wussleeQ wrote: i almost feel bad for hating heat fans after hearing the "let's go heat" chant at the very end of the game. shows that not all of miami fans are the biggest fair weather assholes out there. almost.
It's largely an upper-lower deck and pricing thing. The real die-hard fans tend not to occupy super expensive seats, and therefore are never ever show on tv shots of the stadium.
Thinking about if the Spurs actually win the Finals who you think deserves Finals MVP. Leaning towards Kawhi because of games 3+4 but it's been such a team effort it's a shame the award has to go to any one person. If the Heat manage to pull it out I can't see it going to anyone else but Lebron.
^Mills has been playing well but like Diaw/Splitter and a lot of other fringe Spurs players I think they only really look good because they're playing with the big 3+Leonard and in the Spurs' systems, he'd look average at best on other teams. Like I think if you put Chalmers in Mills' spot he'd look better than Mills.
On June 13 2014 19:28 RowdierBob wrote: I know they were blowouts, but the last two games are two of the best I've ever seen.
The way the Spurs are picking Miami apart is amazing.
Kawahi looks like a lock for MVP if this wraps up in game 5. His offensive and D have been amazing.
I feel for Bron. He's the best player out there but is just getting nothing from his team mates. Wade and Bosh need to fire the fuck up.
Wade and Bosh have been good at stretches but yeah they have to be more consistently great. I think the biggest problem for the Heat is that their roleplayers this year aren't as good as they were last year (Battier struggled all year, no Mike Miller, Ray Allen cold for stretches at a time Chalmers in foul trouble the first couple games) and especially haven't shown up this series.
Well, maybe now that the Heat are facing actual must wins instead of metaphorical ones, they will show some heart on the court. Really disappointing effort out there.
Play at 4:25 in the third really sums up the series so far for me.
Kawhi drives, Wade flops, multiple passes lead to wide open dunk.
Spurs ball movement is just too much for Miami, though I also feel they're just slower/lazier on D than previous seasons. Spurs just get so many open shots it'd be tough to not shoot 50%+. Diaw's been huge this series. So many times he bails us out with good passing/post play at the end of the clock.
Hilarious how shit Heat fans are. Booing after Kawhi hits a 3 over Lebron... seriously? They deserve it if he leaves.
On June 13 2014 19:45 DystopiaX wrote: ^Mills has been playing well but like Diaw/Splitter and a lot of other fringe Spurs players I think they only really look good because they're playing with the big 3+Leonard and in the Spurs' systems, he'd look average at best on other teams. Like I think if you put Chalmers in Mills' spot he'd look better than Mills.
But if you put Chalmers in Mills' spot would the Spurs be better ? The man-to-man comparison ends where the teamplay begins. The Spurs have been pretty successful in this series so it doesn't matter if Mills is worse than Chalmers.
How to beat Miami traffic: wait until the game is over.
GSG.
By the way Mills is a FA at the end of the season. Everyone on Poundingtherock says San Antonio has enough cap space to sign both him and Diaw. I think Diaw won't be really hungry for money because he just wants to settle down at this point and he shows he loves and fits the system and the other players (TP and TD in particular) and he has a skillset only few teams are interested in; so I really don't see him leaving but I think someone might want to pay Patty a LOT of money and even if he has shown to be the epitome of the team oriented, bench sparkplug player, I'm afraid he's young enough to consider his options (And I wouldn't blame him that much even if I'd be terrisad).
But as I said, people more informed than me on these particular details seem to be very confident we'll be able to keep those two. Any opinion in here? I know some of you like to discuss contracts, offseason moves and dumb GMs.
Mills will have his first chance to make set-for-life style money, and I wouldn't be surprised to see him go. Diaw is more likely to stay given his experiences in SA vs CHA. With the cap set to go up though, if the Spurs feel comfortable fielding 'competitive' offers (w/e that means) there's a very obvious strong incentive to stay.
On June 14 2014 06:01 zulu_nation8 wrote: Melo's opting out, thank the lord.
If he is smart he is heading to Dallas. Dwight should have done the same. As a player you want to head for a Team with a great coach and owner and not for the team with your "Bros"
On June 14 2014 06:01 zulu_nation8 wrote: Melo's opting out, thank the lord.
He was going to opt anyways, but is this even a good thing for the Knicks? Either he walks for nothing (right to swap 2nd round picks in 2018?) or he re-ups for max. Both suck and having a boat of cap space doesn't really matter matter when your team is barren.
Knicks won't have cap space no matter, melo re-signing will be the difference between finishing in low lottery compared to having one of the worst rosters in NBA history. I'd much have the latter and start anew with an actual draft pick for next season.
On June 14 2014 06:01 zulu_nation8 wrote: Melo's opting out, thank the lord.
If he is smart he is heading to Dallas. Dwight should have done the same. As a player you want to head for a Team with a great coach and owner and not for the team with your "Bros"
On June 14 2014 04:56 FakePseudo wrote: How to beat Miami traffic: wait until the game is over.
GSG.
By the way Mills is a FA at the end of the season. Everyone on Poundingtherock says San Antonio has enough cap space to sign both him and Diaw. I think Diaw won't be really hungry for money because he just wants to settle down at this point and he shows he loves and fits the system and the other players (TP and TD in particular) and he has a skillset only few teams are interested in; so I really don't see him leaving but I think someone might want to pay Patty a LOT of money and even if he has shown to be the epitome of the team oriented, bench sparkplug player, I'm afraid he's young enough to consider his options (And I wouldn't blame him that much even if I'd be terrisad).
But as I said, people more informed than me on these particular details seem to be very confident we'll be able to keep those two. Any opinion in here? I know some of you like to discuss contracts, offseason moves and dumb GMs.
idk how much cap space is "enough"? I think Diaw is more important to the Spurs system so if it came between the two I'd pick him. I think Mills would be willing to take a pay cut to stay but I don't know how much the Spurs have to offer him. And again, I think he's far less valuable to other teams because imo he'd be less effective outside the Spurs system.
On June 14 2014 06:29 zulu_nation8 wrote: Knicks won't have cap space no matter, melo re-signing will be the difference between finishing in low lottery compared to having one of the worst rosters in NBA history. I'd much have the latter and start anew with an actual draft pick for next season.
I think we've seen this movie before. Back to 2001-2010!
On June 14 2014 04:56 FakePseudo wrote: How to beat Miami traffic: wait until the game is over.
GSG.
By the way Mills is a FA at the end of the season. Everyone on Poundingtherock says San Antonio has enough cap space to sign both him and Diaw. I think Diaw won't be really hungry for money because he just wants to settle down at this point and he shows he loves and fits the system and the other players (TP and TD in particular) and he has a skillset only few teams are interested in; so I really don't see him leaving but I think someone might want to pay Patty a LOT of money and even if he has shown to be the epitome of the team oriented, bench sparkplug player, I'm afraid he's young enough to consider his options (And I wouldn't blame him that much even if I'd be terrisad).
But as I said, people more informed than me on these particular details seem to be very confident we'll be able to keep those two. Any opinion in here? I know some of you like to discuss contracts, offseason moves and dumb GMs.
Patty should get a decent offer by another team and would be well within his rights to get as big a contract as he can. He'll likely already have won one ring (one more than most players), and he's currently one of two backup PGs (along with Joseph) for the Spurs. He's had experience carrying at team (AUS national) and I'm sure he'd like to take a stab at a larger role than what he has in SA.
That said, he could also choose to take less to try to win more rings and stay with a great organization.
I figure Diaw will want to stay because it's the most international team in the league, and he fits perfectly with their system. Being buddies with Parker only adds to it.
On June 14 2014 06:29 zulu_nation8 wrote: Knicks won't have cap space no matter, melo re-signing will be the difference between finishing in low lottery compared to having one of the worst rosters in NBA history. I'd much have the latter and start anew with an actual draft pick for next season.
at this point i'm just expecting the next chapter in the legacy of dolan. black comedy. melo will opt out, phil jackson has a stroke, and dolan trades the pick away which turns out to be the next god player
On June 14 2014 06:01 zulu_nation8 wrote: Melo's opting out, thank the lord.
If he is smart he is heading to Dallas. Dwight should have done the same. As a player you want to head for a Team with a great coach and owner and not for the team with your "Bros"
Dwight in Dallas might have been amazing. I actually think he'd do well with a Monta-Calderon backcourt as long as Marion is around and Dirk anchors the offense. Seeing playoff James Harden you really have to wonder about his fit on another roster.
On June 14 2014 04:56 FakePseudo wrote: How to beat Miami traffic: wait until the game is over.
GSG.
By the way Mills is a FA at the end of the season. Everyone on Poundingtherock says San Antonio has enough cap space to sign both him and Diaw. I think Diaw won't be really hungry for money because he just wants to settle down at this point and he shows he loves and fits the system and the other players (TP and TD in particular) and he has a skillset only few teams are interested in; so I really don't see him leaving but I think someone might want to pay Patty a LOT of money and even if he has shown to be the epitome of the team oriented, bench sparkplug player, I'm afraid he's young enough to consider his options (And I wouldn't blame him that much even if I'd be terrisad).
But as I said, people more informed than me on these particular details seem to be very confident we'll be able to keep those two. Any opinion in here? I know some of you like to discuss contracts, offseason moves and dumb GMs.
idk how much cap space is "enough"? I think Diaw is more important to the Spurs system so if it came between the two I'd pick him. I think Mills would be willing to take a pay cut to stay but I don't know how much the Spurs have to offer him. And again, I think he's far less valuable to other teams because imo he'd be less effective outside the Spurs system.
The only way you leave the Spurs is if they want you to leave it seems for the most part.
I really hope Patty Mills stays in SA. He's a great fit in SA, and I truly think he's the real deal. Will he become the next Parker? Probably not, but I like his hustle on the defensive half and he's shown that he's lights out from the 3PT line, has a decent drive, and is a smart passer.
Mills is 25, while Parker is 32. One has to wonder how long Parker has left in the tank, given that he's started since he was 19. Say Mills stays-- he could assume a much larger role, if not the majority of the work load at PG in just a few years.
If I were SA, I would do my best to keep Diaw and Mills. About once a game with TP in at PG, the offense stalls and TP reverts to his "dribble around the court" routine.
When Mills comes in, he provides such energy and fearlessness that TP sometimes can't bring anymore.
If I were Mills, I would seriously consider staying in SA. I think it's clear that Mills will be the #2 PG behind Parker for the next X years. Cory Joseph isn't bad either, but Mills fits the system better imo. Mills can eventually work his way up the rotation, with a very good chance at winning multiple rings in the future. Idk, I've always been a very team oriented guy, so I'm biased.
On June 14 2014 06:29 zulu_nation8 wrote: Knicks won't have cap space no matter, melo re-signing will be the difference between finishing in low lottery compared to having one of the worst rosters in NBA history. I'd much have the latter and start anew with an actual draft pick for next season.
I thought they'd traded away all their pick for the next couple of seasons? They're dead in the water till 2017ish unless they pull some big FA and miracle trades
On June 14 2014 06:29 zulu_nation8 wrote: Knicks won't have cap space no matter, melo re-signing will be the difference between finishing in low lottery compared to having one of the worst rosters in NBA history. I'd much have the latter and start anew with an actual draft pick for next season.
I thought they'd traded away all their pick for the next couple of seasons? They're dead in the water till 2017ish unless they pull some big FA and miracle trades
Also Knicks with Melo is probably a low seed playoff team in the East, not a low lottery.
Knicks have the 2015 round 1 and that's it. After this year's draft and Bargnani's elbow surgery, playoffs will be unrealistic until 2019 or something.
The last game was amazing to me, the Spurs got quality minutes and performance out of pretty much everyone on the team. Every role player, Splitter, Mills, whoever, could come in for a few minutes and get a couple of important baskets, rebounds or assists.
I watched the Spurs live last season, the first time I'd been to a live game in a long time. They were playing scrubs (New Orleans) and killed them, but I was super impressed by the ball movement and number of passes. I was also impressed that they only played Duncan for like 12 or 13 minutes but he was really dominating in that short time, he had at least a dozen points or so and got a few blocks and contributed a lot to the win. Parker didn't do too much that game, but Ginobli was the most impressive of the big 3 to see live, seeing his "drunken master" layup moves made me wonder how frustrating it must be to try and guard someone like that.
On June 15 2014 10:31 RowdierBob wrote: I've got one take-it-to-the-bank prediction left in me this year: Heat will win game five.
I'd say, not if they keep defending like that. Their agressive double-team on the ball handler is just counterproductive against the Spurs passing game. And they cannot fix this by just playing "harder", it just fundamentally doesn't work against these Spurs. Maybe they need to do something extreme like switching to full zone or something. But if they keep doing their double teaming thing on the pick-and-rolls, they are just going to get boned again imo.
I'm preparing myself for the Heat to win game 5. People are talking like this series is over but if there's one rule to the NBA it's that you can't count out Lebron. I hope the Spurs win but I can't help but feel anxious about this.
On March 13 2014 14:09 zulu_nation8 wrote: I know the west is super strong but I really feel like Spurs will make the finals again. And a west team will probably take it all.
On March 13 2014 14:09 zulu_nation8 wrote: I know the west is super strong but I really feel like Spurs will make the finals again. And a west team will probably take it all.
On June 15 2014 17:06 zulu_nation8 wrote: i'm a genius everyone please see that
On March 13 2014 14:09 zulu_nation8 wrote: I know the west is super strong but I really feel like Spurs will make the finals again. And a west team will probably take it all.
I think there's a chance the Heat win game 5, but it's pretty conditional.
Lebron needs a triple double, scoring something like 40+ points Mario Chalmers needs to wander onto court, then somehow realize he's playing basketball Ray Allen needs to bring his sniper rifle Dwayne Wade needs to stop moving like a 60 year old The bad guys from Space Jam have to show up and steal the Spurs' skills
the hidden storyline is that the image conscious NBA saw how the Wade "embellishment" saga had public attention, so they couldn't allow le refs to give the heat the following games. they are in a tough spot right now lol
On June 16 2014 03:02 MassHysteria wrote: I wouldn't doubt Lebron, but alot of his answers to questions since the end of the last game have been cringe-worthy. .
every time lebron steps in front of the camera and tries to be serious its cringe worthy,thats nothing new he's like the lord of cringe
Don't know what you guys refer to but not talking about basketball IQ. It's about his mental/emotional state of mind. What he says about himself without really meaning to.
I am overlooking whatever it is you guys refer to besides that.
I think a lot of it is how the media treats you. Journalists act like Kobe is the best interview in the league when he really just acts like an ass, curses like he's too cool for school and the media members titter like middle school students. He wouldn't act like that if the media didn't encourage him so I can't hold it against Lebron if the media begs him to go Bob Costas every interview.
I don't know what you mean about basketball IQ being meaningless. I think it's fair to say that there are some people who can use their smarts to understand the game, there are people who just have a natural instinct for the game and there are people who might do both. I find this subject interesting because I suspect that most players in sports are mostly in the second category and that includes video games. So people trying to act mentally superior because of their league or mmr amuse me.
Athletes are also some of the least interesting people in society yet they get interviewed the most. Their answers are always heavily media trained and they get asked the most repetitive and mundane questions. Also anyone who performs or have performed whether as a musician or athlete, etc knows that there's nothing going through in your head when you're in the moment doing stuff, but every time someone makes a game winning shot the first question is always WAT WAS GOING THRU UR HEAD WHEN U MADE DAT SHOT.
I should have used "uninspiring" instead of "cringe-worthy" in my original post about it I think. It would capture my emotion better.
edit: He just says things like "as one of the leaders on this team I have to figure it out..." or -I forgot what else he said- where it just made me be like just say you are THE leader because that is what you really are. The credit will go to him if he wins, so take the heat right now too. It would be more inspiring instead of him shrugging his shoulders and saying "why not us?" when asked if they can win.
Maybe I am just comparing him to Kobe somewhat. But just not inspiring. And part of what makes LBJ great is that he can get so many more people to be a part of his team that someone like Kobe can. With Kobe, you have to have the same mentality, or be willing to deal with it, etc. But it can also be a knock on him in certain situations IMO. Not saying someone can't find the right formula to balance both traits, but not sure he has.
On June 16 2014 06:47 MassHysteria wrote: Don't know what you guys refer to but not talking about basketball IQ. It's about his mental/emotional state of mind. What he says about himself without really meaning to.
I am overlooking whatever it is you guys refer to besides that.
I was mostly just referring to the fact that "basketball IQ" is just a catchall phrase that journalists/talking heads like to use when they can't actually explain why a player did something they think is good. I wrote that because I was salty after watching some NBA tv and hearing that to describe one of LBJ's passes, which had nothing to do with being smart, and everything to do with that he is the only 6'8", 250 LBS man in the world with a 45" vertical and that level of body coordination who also happens to play 50 hours of basketball a week.
On June 16 2014 09:08 biology]major wrote: whatever they do, I hope they do something drastically different. If it's just "more passion, more energy" crap imma be sad
On June 16 2014 09:08 biology]major wrote: whatever they do, I hope they do something drastically different. If it's just "more passion, more energy" crap imma be sad
And it is "more passion more energy" Lebron going for putbacks and emphatic dunks and shit. It's not all that- the Spurs missed a couple jumpers/layups- but it doesn't hurt to not look dead tired on the court all the time.
<3 that by Battier. Trying to set a tone for his team.
But he chose the wrong dude. You don't rile up the "white Kobe"!! One of the few players in the league that might raise their level when they play mad.
Wade's play is so inconsequential compared to what I remembered from him :'( (it has been a long time since I've watched me some NBA :D). I hope he gets better as the minutes go.
On June 16 2014 09:42 On_Slaught wrote: I'll take 7 points. Jame will have to score at 50 or 60 to win this game.
I know he's all about getting his teammates involved, and I wouldn't want to see him abandon that completely. But if there is ever a game for LBJ to adopt the MJ mentality of 'I tried to get you guys going and you fucked it up and missed your shots, fuck off it's my ball' it is this game right here.
On June 16 2014 09:42 On_Slaught wrote: I'll take 7 points. Jame will have to score at 50 or 60 to win this game.
I know he's all about getting his teammates involved, and I wouldn't want to see him abandon that completely. But if there is ever a game for LBJ to adopt the MJ mentality of 'I tried to get you guys going and you fucked it up and missed your shots, fuck off it's my ball' it is this game right here.
Its a topic for another conversation but Spurs couldve been a truly amazing dynasty by winning twice in a row at the end of their stars' careers. You need star players to win but we can argue that none of them can be called that at this point, aside from Leonard who still is a dark horse.
On June 16 2014 10:14 icystorage wrote: James' back is now aching
his back's been aching this entire presidential term
Fixed that for you.
I really don't see Lebron leaving this year. Where could he go that has cap room and him going there makes them a favorite? He aint going to the West. The next year is more likely, but that gives Riley more time to finagle things and I'd trust him over anyone else at this point.
That said, if I were him, I'd go to Pat Riley and say "we can't do this again next year, this is taking years off of my career".
I was actually just wondering what the hell they would say if he said he'd come over for like 8 million. Part of me wants to believe they would turn it down, but the idea is just so outlandish and I probably wouldn't be able to resist myself.
On June 16 2014 10:41 Jerubaal wrote: I was actually just wondering what the hell they would say if he said he'd come over for like 8 million. Part of me wants to believe they would turn it down, but the idea is just so outlandish and I probably wouldn't be able to resist myself.
as far as i understood lebron said he would have no problem with taking another pay cut to get melo to miami,tho bosh might have said that im not sure so yea,someone like lebron gives 0 fucks about contract money since he makes 50 times as much from nike and other sponsors
There has to be a rule with players taking less money. I mean Lebron probably has enough income that he can take the minimum for the rest of this career and still be fine.
its not insane at all,james is at the peek of his career,even if he could why would he want to play less than 35 minutes a game? it just looks bad in these situations where no one else on the team can score and the other teams can continuously throw fresh bodys at you without worrying too much about other players. playing 35-40 mins a game isn't the issue,it's what people expect you to do in those minutes
On June 16 2014 10:53 Ru ba wrote: its not insane at all,james is at the peek of his career,even if he could why would he want to play less than 35 minutes a game? it just looks bad in these situations where no one else on the team can score and the other teams can continuously throw fresh bodys at you without worrying too much about other players. playing 35-40 mins a game isn't the issue,it's what people expect you to do in those minutes
Those are stats for the regular season. James is ranked 25 for minutes/games for the playoffs.
On June 16 2014 10:53 Ru ba wrote: its not insane at all,james is at the peek of his career,even if he could why would he want to play less than 35 minutes a game? it just looks bad in these situations where no one else on the team can score and the other teams can continuously throw fresh bodys at you without worrying too much about other players. playing 35-40 mins a game isn't the issue,it's what people expect you to do in those minutes
Those are stats for the regular season. James is ranked 25 for minutes/games for the playoffs.
That said, if I were him, I'd go to Pat Riley and say "we can't do this again next year, this is taking years off of my career".
they've been to the finals 4 straight times.......nothing is being taken away from his career lol
Yes, but most reasonable observers recognize that they have faced only 2 real contenders in the East during that run, which means that OKC has beaten nearly as many good teams in the last 4 years as Miami has. If you assume the Spurs win tonight, or sometime this series, the Heat will be 4-2 against real Contenders (Charitably giving that label to the young 2011 Bulls and old 2012 Celtics), which is worse than the Spurs against such teams, in the last 2 years alone.
That said, if I were him, I'd go to Pat Riley and say "we can't do this again next year, this is taking years off of my career".
they've been to the finals 4 straight times.......nothing is being taken away from his career lol
Yes, but most reasonable observers recognize that they have faced only 2 real contenders in the East during that run, which means that OKC has beaten nearly as many good teams in the last 4 years as Miami has. If you assume the Spurs win tonight, or sometime this series, the Heat will be 4-2 against real Contenders (Charitably giving that label to the young 2011 Bulls and old 2012 Celtics), which is worse than the Spurs against such teams, in the last 2 years alone.
When people look back at Lebron's career/legacy, no one will remember or care how easy or hard his road to the Finals were.
That said, if I were him, I'd go to Pat Riley and say "we can't do this again next year, this is taking years off of my career".
they've been to the finals 4 straight times.......nothing is being taken away from his career lol
Yes, but most reasonable observers recognize that they have faced only 2 real contenders in the East during that run, which means that OKC has beaten nearly as many good teams in the last 4 years as Miami has. If you assume the Spurs win tonight, or sometime this series, the Heat will be 4-2 against real Contenders (Charitably giving that label to the young 2011 Bulls and old 2012 Celtics), which is worse than the Spurs against such teams, in the last 2 years alone.
so what? you think shaqs careers is any less amazing because the lakers back than rolled over everything in sight? that's the dumbest argument ever,the nba finals are the nba finals.2 teams are there for a reason,sometimes the matchups are just one sided as they can be. and yea no one will ever look at lebrons career and say,hmm yea those 2 championships man,those were really suspect because xyz team was not that good.
if people apply this strength of competition argument without prejudice lebron would come out better since modern competition is much higher than whatever happened back in the golden days of basketball.
I don't know much about NBA history but isn't it one of the most one-sided finals ? Not in term of overall score, I guess there have been 4-0s but in term of match scores.
That said, if I were him, I'd go to Pat Riley and say "we can't do this again next year, this is taking years off of my career".
they've been to the finals 4 straight times.......nothing is being taken away from his career lol
Yes, but most reasonable observers recognize that they have faced only 2 real contenders in the East during that run, which means that OKC has beaten nearly as many good teams in the last 4 years as Miami has. If you assume the Spurs win tonight, or sometime this series, the Heat will be 4-2 against real Contenders (Charitably giving that label to the young 2011 Bulls and old 2012 Celtics), which is worse than the Spurs against such teams, in the last 2 years alone.
so what? you think shaqs careers is any less amazing because the lakers back than rolled over everything in sight? that's the dumbest argument ever,the nba finals are the nba finals.2 teams are there for a reason,sometimes the matchups are just one sided as they can be. and yea no one will ever look at lebrons career and say,hmm yea those 2 championships man,those were really suspect because xyz team was not that good.
No they wont, but they should.
The point is that history should try to establish history correctly so they do remember it how I stated, and additionally, Miami shouldn't look so fondly on its run and say "wow we were the 2000-2004 Lakers", because they aren't/weren't. Those Lakers are probably the most dominant teams ever, and lost because of bad chemistry. These Heat are a very good team that won 2 titles in 4 years, which is about what should be expected, but they also made 4 finals, which is more than that, partially because the East has been fucking terrible.
On June 16 2014 11:14 icystorage wrote: i guess they can only win 2 rings. not one, not three, not four. two.
Need more 2003 draft alumni. I swear Darko is the missing link!
Don't forget Melo.
Well that's obvious. There's already rumors surrounding him (theres always Melo trade rumors). But how funny would it be if Melo and Darko both go to the Heat next season?
so can we just take a moment of silence for our only real adversaries this year,the Dallas Mavericks can't lie,my butthole was pretty clenched during that one
the saddest part of this is that this is clearly not hte same Heat team that played all season. Yeah the Spurs are outplaying them but the Heat are playing shitty as well
On June 16 2014 11:27 wuhan_clan wrote: Parker delivering when it counts.
Points count the same all game boss.
While technically yes, points are worth the same all game long, basketball is a very emotionally driven, momentum based game where psychological influences can have just a big an impact on a game as physiological ones. Getting points when the opposing team is trying to mount a come-back and points when the opposing team is simply not scoring at all are two completely different things.
I think Beasley should have played more...not this series, but in the regular season, you know, just to try it. He actually seems able to move his feet unlike Battier.
Edit, I understand he is an idiot, but i mean, maybe a coachable idiot? TRY IT!
Hard to say, by pure stats yes but then you have to look at defense and overall impact on the game and in the latter Leonard probably beats him out (though not by much).
Though I guess we can look at Heat minus Lebron and Spurs minus Kawhi. In that case, definitely Lebron.
gl on keeping leflop and raptor heat fans :D "not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4, not 5..." ya definitely not 5, leflop. you've been lucky enough that the NBA isn't changing the format to best in league from best in region, u'll never get past some of the western teams that didnt make it to the playoffs.
ESPN/ABC thought process: "We paid hundreds of millions of dollars to broadcast this event, better cut to local news and irrelevant baseball games as soon as possible."
On June 16 2014 13:28 On_Slaught wrote: Very real possibility that 10-15 years from now we look back on this day with Kawhi Leonard the same way we look back at Duncan in 1999. Cool beans.
Let Doris Burke interview Kawhi a few times. She'll be begging to interview Pop.
On June 16 2014 13:33 darthfoley wrote: Greatness. One of the best teams in NBA history.
The Spurs have become my favorite team in sports over the past three seasons.
It's been one hell of a ride. From being a 1 seed losing to a 8 seed to being 1 rebound away from a title to putting an ass whooping on the league in the last 3 rounds.
On June 16 2014 12:19 Jerubaal wrote: I mean Finals MVP, people. I realize that the winning team gets a large edge, so I said 'in a perfect world'.
It's not a very valuable contribution if you team barely manages to take one game during the series, is it?
MVP for a player on the losing team is reserved for those rare instances where the series is highly competitive and that player puts out a truly herculean effort.
On June 16 2014 12:31 Advantageous wrote: gl on keeping leflop and raptor heat fans :D "not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4, not 5..." ya definitely not 5, leflop. you've been lucky enough that the NBA isn't changing the format to best in league from best in region, u'll never get past some of the western teams that didnt make it to the playoffs.
On June 16 2014 13:28 On_Slaught wrote: Very real possibility that 10-15 years from now we look back on this day with Kawhi Leonard the same way we look back at Duncan in 1999. Cool beans.
Let Doris Burke interview Kawhi a few times. She'll be begging to interview Pop.
On June 16 2014 13:33 darthfoley wrote: Greatness. One of the best teams in NBA history.
The Spurs have become my favorite team in sports over the past three seasons.
It's been one hell of a ride. From being a 1 seed losing to a 8 seed to being 1 rebound away from a title to putting an ass whooping on the league in the last 3 rounds.
Yea. Funny thing is, I used to barely watch basketball because I didn't feel like it was "team oriented" enough (I.e. Thunder, Heat in the finals, etc). Spurs showed me how wrong I was; basketball is such a beautiful game when you have a great team playing.
Per Adande: Spurs' 528-458 points edge over Heat in series was biggest point differential in NBA Finals history.
And here's my Twitter roundup:
Tyler Wasieleski @nonyTV 1h The Spurs' performance in the finals was really something special. And it's awesome to see my favorite player get Finals MVP. Sweet Sugar K
Kevin van der Kooi @RotterdaM08 2h Congratulations to the San Antonio spurs and all the spurs fans out there. Was rooting for Lebron & the Heat but well, spurs deserved it. Gg
JP McDaniel @itmeJP 2h is Holt drunk?
JP McDaniel @itmeJP 2h lololol lebron just walking out of the stadium makes me laugh
Statsman Bruno @StatsmanBruno 5h I'm also missing the NBA finals, noooo. Go spurs!!
I know it will never happen, but I for one would love to see Lebron play for Pop and the Spurs. He goes out of hsi way to be a team player, and alongside their future stars, with Pop at the helm, they could legitimately make a run at the Lakers history.
On June 16 2014 14:19 On_Slaught wrote: I know it will never happen, but I for one would love to see Lebron play for Pop and the Spurs. He goes out of hsi way to be a team player, and alongside their future stars, with Pop at the helm, they could legitimately make a run at the Lakers history.
I think lebron on a team like the spurs would kill either the superstar aspect of lebron or the beautiful flow of the Spurs.
On June 16 2014 14:19 On_Slaught wrote: I know it will never happen, but I for one would love to see Lebron play for Pop and the Spurs. He goes out of hsi way to be a team player, and alongside their future stars, with Pop at the helm, they could legitimately make a run at the Lakers history.
I think lebron on a team like the spurs would kill either the superstar aspect of lebron or the beautiful flow of the Spurs.
If you sign to the Spurs you automatically lose all your commercials and the media forgets about you until the Conference Finals.
On June 16 2014 13:28 On_Slaught wrote: Very real possibility that 10-15 years from now we look back on this day with Kawhi Leonard the same way we look back at Duncan in 1999. Cool beans.
Let Doris Burke interview Kawhi a few times. She'll be begging to interview Pop.
I mean Kawhi might say less but at least he doesn't strike fear in you with his presence.
What an amazing game. That third quarter was the Spurs playoff run all wrapped up.
Hate to say it but my guy Wade is done. Miami's big 3 need to drastically cut their minutes if they want to keep this going assuming they call come back.
On June 16 2014 12:18 ticklishmusic wrote: 28.2 PPG (57.1%/ 51.9% 3PT) 7.8 RPG, 2.0 SPG for Lebron
Hard to say, by pure stats yes but then you have to look at defense and overall impact on the game and in the latter Leonard probably beats him out (though not by much).
Though I guess we can look at Heat minus Lebron and Spurs minus Kawhi. In that case, definitely Lebron.
How valuable are you really when your team loses 4 out of 5 games, each by 15+ points? And the only game you win, you were 4 made free throws from losing?
Since winning is the ultimate goal, I don't think empty stats should get consideration for MVP.
On June 16 2014 12:18 ticklishmusic wrote: 28.2 PPG (57.1%/ 51.9% 3PT) 7.8 RPG, 2.0 SPG for Lebron
Hard to say, by pure stats yes but then you have to look at defense and overall impact on the game and in the latter Leonard probably beats him out (though not by much).
Though I guess we can look at Heat minus Lebron and Spurs minus Kawhi. In that case, definitely Lebron.
How valuable are you really when your team loses 4 out of 5 games, each by 15+ points? And the only game you win, you were 4 made free throws from losing?
Since winning is the ultimate goal, I don't think empty stats should get consideration for MVP.
I wouldn't call them empty stats. It's not like he was putting up Carmelo 28ppg or not playing defense (most of the time.) There's just only so much a single player can do, and using the "games won" metric is also pretty silly because it's such a teamwork heavy game, especially when the Spurs are involved.
Jordan couldn't beat the Pistons until Pippen stepped up and there's no way Lebron was going to single handedly stay with a team as excellently balanced and coached as the Spurs unless his sidekicks stepped up, even if he was extremely valuable (which he was.)
Just because they lost in embarrassing fashion doesn't mean he wasn't extremely valuable.
There's no way he should be considered MVP unless it were a closer series, but let's not ignore how well he played.
Also, I guess this Spurs team is the most balanced in the history of the league. #2 were the 89 Pistons, and they weren't even that close.
I wasn't saying Lebron should have been MVP. I guess I should have been more direct and asked if you thought Lebron played better than Kawhi.
The problem with that metric is that it assumes the teams have an equal talent pool. Maybe the Spurs just had a lot of talent from top to bottom. Just because the Spurs were super deep doesn't mean they couldn't put out a very talented 5 man lineup. They shared the ball a lot and they purposely spread out the minutes. They didn't have any All Stars on their team because they took turns being the All Star any given night.
I also think this "All-Star vs Balanced" argument is silly because if you take away the top players from each team, they usually aren't that unequal and of course the team with the better best player is going to win in that scenario. There's no reason to think that a team with significantly more talent shouldn't beat a team even if they have their one best player. The Heat really needed Wade to be the second best player in the series and, with the way everyone else was playing, probably need Bosh to be the 3rd best player to have a chance.
Well you were right about it being your last prediction...
So happy, only followed the Spurs since a year before the Cleveland win... this one's soooo much sweeter. The amount of times they've been written off as too old is getting old. They'll be a serious repeat threat next season as I'd bet anything Duncan and Ginobili will be back.
The Ginobili dunk was like a fairytale finish after he killed us last finals. Didn't think they should've re-signed him for so much but he really earned it these playoffs, even at 36.
On June 16 2014 12:18 ticklishmusic wrote: 28.2 PPG (57.1%/ 51.9% 3PT) 7.8 RPG, 2.0 SPG for Lebron
Hard to say, by pure stats yes but then you have to look at defense and overall impact on the game and in the latter Leonard probably beats him out (though not by much).
Though I guess we can look at Heat minus Lebron and Spurs minus Kawhi. In that case, definitely Lebron.
How valuable are you really when your team loses 4 out of 5 games, each by 15+ points? And the only game you win, you were 4 made free throws from losing?
Since winning is the ultimate goal, I don't think empty stats should get consideration for MVP.
I even thought it impossible to be MVP when your team loses. Has it ever happened? (in NBA finals)
On June 16 2014 16:52 Jerubaal wrote: I wasn't saying Lebron should have been MVP. I guess I should have been more direct and asked if you thought Lebron played better than Kawhi.
The problem with that metric is that it assumes the teams have an equal talent pool. Maybe the Spurs just had a lot of talent from top to bottom. Just because the Spurs were super deep doesn't mean they couldn't put out a very talented 5 man lineup. They shared the ball a lot and they purposely spread out the minutes. They didn't have any All Stars on their team because they took turns being the All Star any given night.
I also think this "All-Star vs Balanced" argument is silly because if you take away the top players from each team, they usually aren't that unequal and of course the team with the better best player is going to win in that scenario. There's no reason to think that a team with significantly more talent shouldn't beat a team even if they have their one best player. The Heat really needed Wade to be the second best player in the series and, with the way everyone else was playing, probably need Bosh to be the 3rd best player to have a chance.
One of the stats I saw was that in each game the Spurs, on average, passed the balls about 100 times and ran a total of a mile more than the Heat. While that could be attributed to simply having possession of the ball for that much longer (I haven't looked at the particular number), having such an incredibly deep bench and different lineups is what let the Spurs effectively run circles around the Heat.
Honestly though, Lebron is still the best player in the game but you could put him in with any lineup the Heat have, and Pop could probably throw something out that is still better. You could also put him in for 48 minutes every game, and he still wouldn't be able to carry his team.
On June 16 2014 15:54 Jibba wrote: There's just only so much a single player can do
I know you're joking, but even with his amazing numbers Wilt was like 2-4 in Finals appearances and had a losing record in conference semi's, because of the Celtics.
On June 16 2014 15:54 Jibba wrote: There's just only so much a single player can do
I know you're joking, but even with his amazing numbers Wilt was like 2-4 in Finals appearances and had a losing record in conference semi's, because of the Celtics.
exactly. wilt got beat by the celtics nearly* every year. the two finals he won he was part of the stronger team
On June 16 2014 15:54 Jibba wrote: There's just only so much a single player can do
I know you're joking, but even with his amazing numbers Wilt was like 2-4 in Finals appearances and had a losing record in conference semi's, because of the Celtics.
exactly. wilt got beat by the celtics nearly* every year. the two finals he won he was part of the stronger team
And to add to this, Big-O only won 1 title, and he put up some of the most staggering individual numbers performances of anyone not named Wilt. He didn't even make it beyond the first round the year he averaged a triple double and 30+ points.
There really is only so much a single player can do.
On June 16 2014 12:18 ticklishmusic wrote: 28.2 PPG (57.1%/ 51.9% 3PT) 7.8 RPG, 2.0 SPG for Lebron
Hard to say, by pure stats yes but then you have to look at defense and overall impact on the game and in the latter Leonard probably beats him out (though not by much).
Though I guess we can look at Heat minus Lebron and Spurs minus Kawhi. In that case, definitely Lebron.
How valuable are you really when your team loses 4 out of 5 games, each by 15+ points? And the only game you win, you were 4 made free throws from losing?
Since winning is the ultimate goal, I don't think empty stats should get consideration for MVP.
I even thought it impossible to be MVP when your team loses. Has it ever happened? (in NBA finals)
This series is also notable in that West, with an average of nearly 38 points a game, won the Finals Most Valuable Player award, despite being on the losing team. This was the first year a Finals MVP award was given, and it remains the only time in NBA Finals history that the MVP was awarded to a player on the losing team.
On June 16 2014 12:19 Jerubaal wrote: I mean Finals MVP, people. I realize that the winning team gets a large edge, so I said 'in a perfect world'.
It's not a very valuable contribution if you team barely manages to take one game during the series, is it?
MVP for a player on the losing team is reserved for those rare instances where the series is highly competitive and that player puts out a truly herculean effort.
On June 16 2014 14:57 Ace wrote: What an amazing game. That third quarter was the Spurs playoff run all wrapped up.
Hate to say it but my guy Wade is done. Miami's big 3 need to drastically cut their minutes if they want to keep this going assuming they call come back.
I just think the Heat need to retool a bit during this offseason and recharge their batteries. Four NBA Finals appearances in a row is incredibly draining and it showed this time around. If they can make a few shrewd offseason transactions whether through free agency, the draft, or both, then I expect them to make the finals once again and put up a better fight then this year.
Spoelstra will indeed have to look at his minute allocation in the regular season, both to give Lebron some more rest, but also to get their role players more playing time and thus more confidence to perform in the playoffs. Wade needs to refocus on the defensive end where he was just hopeless this series. Manu, as a comparison, has had well documented injury problems and has clearly slowed down defensively for some time now but he still plays hard and intelligently so he isn't a complete liability on that end. Wade needs to do the same.
Fantastic series by the Spurs. It's unbelievable that they are once again NBA champions this late into their core's careers. I've never seen a team so driven to win and congratulations to them. Once of the best displays of basketball in NBA history.
So I heard the Spurs have the highest point differential in NBA playoff history at +214, even though they only went 16-7. In contrast, the 2000-2001 Lakers had a point differential of +204 when they went 15-1.
Point differentials by series are: 2013-2014 Spurs vs Dallas - +14 vs Portland - +67 vs OKC - +63 vs Miami - +70
2000-2001 Lakers vs Portland - +44 vs Sacramento - +37 vs San Antonio - +89 vs Philly - +34
On June 17 2014 02:49 andrewlt wrote: So I heard the Spurs have the highest point differential in NBA playoff history at +214, even though they only went 16-7. In contrast, the 2000-2001 Lakers had a point differential of +204 when they went 15-1.
Point differentials by series are: 2013-2014 Spurs vs Dallas - +14 vs Portland - +67 vs OKC - +63 vs Miami - +70
2000-2001 Lakers vs Portland - +44 vs Sacramento - +37 vs San Antonio - +89 vs Philly - +34
what happened in those 7 losts? spurs were stop by superior defense or did they got stop by themselves? didn't play Diaw enough? only paid attention to spurs when they were playing the thunders, but that series were just blown out after blown out by both teams. Only the last game were competitive.
The 2000-2001 Lakers still had a bigger point-differential when taking into account possessions (per 100 possessions). That team was beast though! This team is more balanced.
On June 17 2014 02:49 andrewlt wrote: So I heard the Spurs have the highest point differential in NBA playoff history at +214, even though they only went 16-7. In contrast, the 2000-2001 Lakers had a point differential of +204 when they went 15-1.
Point differentials by series are: 2013-2014 Spurs vs Dallas - +14 vs Portland - +67 vs OKC - +63 vs Miami - +70
2000-2001 Lakers vs Portland - +44 vs Sacramento - +37 vs San Antonio - +89 vs Philly - +34
what happened in those 7 losts? spurs were stop by superior defense or did they got stop by themselves? didn't play Diaw enough? only paid attention to spurs when they were playing the thunders, but that series were just blown out after blown out by both teams. Only the last game were competitive.
Lost 3 to Dallas which had a gameplan and personnel to counter them, 2 to the thunder, 1 each to Portland, Miami. Ibaka coming back did a lot for the Thunder until they kind of figured it out.
Another undercurrent is that the Heat, when they were at their height, were probably one of the most refereeing-dependent elite teams I can remember (kind of like the Thunder currently). Their defense was hyper-aggressive and could get them in foul trouble, or alternatively they often relied on friendly whistles offensively. A slight degradation in their ability to be physically overpowering, and the Spurs being very good at avoiding foul trouble/traps on each end made this look worse than most people probably expected.
That sort of defense is also the 'icing on the cake' sort of play. That's what you do when you're comfortable with every other part of your game. Lebron can't make those plays when he's having to do all these other things. And everyone else played like dogshit anyway.
If people really think James & Co all taking a pay cut to try to bring in Melo is a legit possibility, wouldn't the scarier option to be bringing in Lance Stephenson?
Considering they probably need to reload with some shooters, I don't think he's the right person to go after, even if he has more of a pulse offensively than what they have.
The most realistic thing for them to do is to try to get a few Bellinelli-like characters, I was just saying, for the same money Id rather watch the Heat + Lance than Heat + Melo.
The first thing they have to do is see if Chris Bosh is going to grow a pair. If he and Wade can't be better than roleplayers, the team is kaputskies anyway. Maybe they need to tell Bosh he needs to be the #2. Granted, it looked fine until they got to the Finals, but I'd like to think we were being prophetic when we noted that they weren't destroying the East as much as we thought they ought to have been.
On June 17 2014 11:26 Jerubaal wrote: The first thing they have to do is see if Chris Bosh is going to grow a pair. If he and Wade can't be better than roleplayers, the team is kaputskies anyway. Maybe they need to tell Bosh he needs to be the #2. Granted, it looked fine until they got to the Finals, but I'd like to think we were being prophetic when we noted that they weren't destroying the East as much as we thought they ought to have been.
At a guess, everything you hate about Bosh he does because Spolestra and the team ask him to. He's absolutely essential to their defense and gets approximately zero credit for it. And his willingness to give up shots/rebounds/testicles and play a more perimeter game is the only reason Lebron and Wade ever have a driving lane. It's not just about raw rebounds and getting enough FGAs to inflate your point totals. Wade was awful over the last 3 games, probably due to his knees/legs betraying him, but that's why Miami looked so hopeless.
The question really then is, why will next year be any different? Or does Miami just hope that OKC wins the west next year and that they match-up better/don't have to deal with a Spur's system that exposes their defensive limitations so dramatically.
its premature to say this but i think the heat as we know them as true contenders are done. battiers retiring, ray allen considering retirement, wade needs to consider his injuries, bosh can bounce back. miami could somehow get great acquisitions and make the finals again (because of how bad the east is), but in the process miami i think will need to revamp their role players and system with a minimum of cap space (assuming everybody opts in), not an easy feat at all...
Miami doesn't need Melo or Lance Stephenson. They need a Center. Birdman being injured in the Indy series showed just how hard it was for them to keep that defense up without a good big left outside of Bosh.
On June 17 2014 11:26 Jerubaal wrote: The first thing they have to do is see if Chris Bosh is going to grow a pair. If he and Wade can't be better than roleplayers, the team is kaputskies anyway. Maybe they need to tell Bosh he needs to be the #2. Granted, it looked fine until they got to the Finals, but I'd like to think we were being prophetic when we noted that they weren't destroying the East as much as we thought they ought to have been.
Miami actually did better vs the West in the RS. Either way Bosh should have been "#2" starting last year imo. We like to blame Wade and Bosh but I think part of it is also them changing their games so much to suit Lebron. Before the Finals where his legs died, Wade was torching teams with Lebron off the floor. The Miami offense was fine. It's really the defense that needs to be changed.
Haiq also brings up something that should be known: Miami got blown out by the only team that could realistically beat them down outside the Clippers imo. If it was against anyone else they'd probably 3 peat with Lebron putting up better than Jordan numbers.
Bob Wade deserves all the money he's owed but he should opt out and restructure. I really hope he doesn't go the Kobe route.
Yea. When Michael Beasley came in and played that traffic cone defense I was like please don't put Oden in and embarrass the dude. He can't move quick enough.
big piece of a heat rebuild will have to be dwayne wade taking a big paycut. he's not physically capable of playing a full season and he's very refball reliant in the playoffs. there's still some upside there for bursts.
get some sort of interior defense guy, and more scoring options.
You wouldn't begrudge him taking the money but I'm not sure he's worth it anymore. If he does opt-in it's going to be very hard for the Heat to build a winner.
Just to pile on on Wade here rq, Miami really missed his shot blocking. He used to be a legitimate shot blocking threat, and Miami built Bosh's responsibilities around the understanding that Wade/Lebron could rotate down after traps etc and challenge shots. He couldn't jump after game 2 it looked like, which is tough. Feel for the guy (a little) and wonder what his 'Finish Line' internal monologue is saying currently.
Didn't Bosh also state that he doesn't want to play in the middle anymore because he doesn't want the wear and tear on his knees? Since he doesn't want to play inside, that means Riley has to dip into the FA pool to find big men to complement.
With LeBron, he changed his game to fit him with his outside shooting while Haslem/Birdman banged knees on the inside, but with potentially both of them gone, who would fulfill that role? Miami hoped that it would be Greg Oden, but who knows how long he'll last.
Honestly, Heat should find the quickest, and cheapest way to deal with Wade, he's not playing much better than a second or third round draft pick right now. Sure he was an amazing player monster in the past, but now he's a liability on the court and the books.
I mean, just imagine if you'd traded him for a couple good bench players. Things could have gone so differently-- maybe not a Heat win, but it wouldn't have been worst blowout NA.
On June 18 2014 00:29 oneofthem wrote: wade isn't a bad player he just wears out a bit too easily.
The issue is if you get healthy Wade, or TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsWade. They both cost the same against the cap. Will he ever be healthy enough for a full season+playoffs again? I certainly don't know.
After seeing Ginobili last year and this year, can you really say there is no chance? He looked good enough until this series. Maybe with a heavier minute restriction next year? He needs a pay cut, though, if he's going to play so little.
On June 18 2014 01:01 andrewlt wrote: After seeing Ginobili last year and this year, can you really say there is no chance? He looked good enough until this series. Maybe with a heavier minute restriction next year? He needs a pay cut, though, if he's going to play so little.
Lebron played 1300 more minutes than him this season and 400 more than the average player on the Heat. That means Wade played 900 minutes less than the average Heat player. Ignoring overtime, that means he played the equivalent of 18-19 games less, or basically sat out for close to a quarter of the season. I don't think it's possible to sit him out for much more unless you want him to start wearing the official Derrick Rose playoff uniform.
The Heat is a win now team, they can't afford to pay Wade "for services performed" the way the Lakers gave Kobe $30M. The Lakers know they suck this season and are rebuilding. The Heat needs $$$ now to win now.
From what I heard from a reputable Heat-media member is that the issue with Wade is his arthritic knee. He has no cartilage in one, so the problem is he looks really good for 3 weeks but then needs 2 weeks off to recover.
When the playoffs come around, that doesn't cut it because he can't take the time off to recover. By the time the finals are being played, his body is worn out from the previous rounds and it really showed in this series.
On June 18 2014 01:01 andrewlt wrote: After seeing Ginobili last year and this year, can you really say there is no chance? He looked good enough until this series. Maybe with a heavier minute restriction next year? He needs a pay cut, though, if he's going to play so little.
Lebron played 1300 more minutes than him this season and 400 more than the average player on the Heat. That means Wade played 900 minutes less than the average Heat player. Ignoring overtime, that means he played the equivalent of 18-19 games less, or basically sat out for close to a quarter of the season. I don't think it's possible to sit him out for much more unless you want him to start wearing the official Derrick Rose playoff uniform.
The Heat is a win now team, they can't afford to pay Wade "for services performed" the way the Lakers gave Kobe $30M. The Lakers know they suck this season and are rebuilding. The Heat needs $$$ now to win now.
Wade can (maybe should) take a pay cut and accept a Ginobili type role. Maybe not necessarily come out of the bench, but play more sparingly.
Wade played 1775 minutes in 54 regular season games and 693 minutes in 20 playoff games. Ginobili played 1550 minutes in 68 regular season games and 586 minutes in 23 playoff games.
Unless he can find time to rest in the playoffs or find a miracle-surgery the way Kobe did I think it will be hard for him.
And I didn't want to go season by season to find this out, but I did anyways (b/c I <3 u guys), but here are Wade's points-per-game in Finals-series since his remarkable 2006 series.
Finals Series (year, points-per-game, True-shooting %, series Free Throw Attempts):
2006- 34.7 pts/game with 57 TS% ... 97 FTA 2011- 26.5 pts/game with 61 TS% ... 49 FTA 2012- 22.6 pts/game with 52 TS% ... 40 FTA 2013- 19.6 pts/game with 51 TS% ... 22 FTA 2014- 15.2 pts/game with 50 TS% ... 26 FTA
he doesnt have to sit games out in the playoffs. just play less minutes, or less high exertion minutes particularly earlier in the round. this requires them to have more depth of course
On June 18 2014 02:09 oneofthem wrote: he doesnt have to sit games out in the playoffs. just play less minutes, or less high exertion minutes particularly earlier in the round. this requires them to have more depth of course
I said this is in relation to my post at the top of the page where a Heat-media member said that Wade has to rest 2 weeks for every 3 weeks of good basketball.
I would assume he will do some kind of medical procedure this summer that would hopefully help him out for next year though.
The issue with Wade is that he wore out in the Finals despite the Heat conserving him for large chunks of the regular season. In order to do that, they had to play Lebron big minutes and carry the team and concede homecourt advantage to both the Spurs and Pacers. I suspect that Lebron will be less willing to do those things again if doing so still results in a significantly limited Wade come Finals time.
The counter argument to the above is that Wade looked pretty good up until the Finals series, and maybe more credit should be given to the Spurs for figuring him out and playing to his weaknesses. It's uncertain whether he would've been able to do much better against any other team since the Spurs were so far ahead of everyone this year. Then again, the Spurs should be just as good next year and the Heat are in championship or bust mode, making it pretty important whether Wade can contribute vs the Spurs or not. Plus, he got rejected at the rim by Splitter
If Wade cares about winning and keeping Lebron happy, he should opt out and re-sign for less money. He's well within his rights to not do so and take the $40M over the next two seasons, but that would handicap the Heat quite a bit and could frustrate Lebron further. I highly doubt Wade gets traded since he's done so much for the franchise and has stated he wants to retire there.
Ginobli makes half of what Wade does, and that allows the Spurs to basically pay for Bellini and Green though (which is kind of hilarious when you put it that way).
On June 17 2014 23:31 Phelix wrote: Didn't Bosh also state that he doesn't want to play in the middle anymore because he doesn't want the wear and tear on his knees? Since he doesn't want to play inside, that means Riley has to dip into the FA pool to find big men to complement.
With LeBron, he changed his game to fit him with his outside shooting while Haslem/Birdman banged knees on the inside, but with potentially both of them gone, who would fulfill that role? Miami hoped that it would be Greg Oden, but who knows how long he'll last.
No he said he didn't want to post up dudes, not that he didn't want to defend the paint.
Was about to post RE Wade but then Cyric basically said everything I was going to say. People are acting like Wade is trash because of 1 bad series and that's not true, he was fine up till then and the Spurs shut down everyone on the Heat, not just Wade. I do think that he should take a pay cut, but not necessarily one as dramatic as a lot of people here seem to think he should take.
I don't think he should take a pay-cut. I just think he shouldn't be counted on as the #2 anymore. And perhaps not even a #3.
But how can you ask him to take a pay-cut when, now more than ever, he realizes he has a short playing-window left. But I mean I am sure he would do it for the right scenario.
He also a 15% trade kicker, so that makes it even harder to trade him.
With all that said, I still think he can come back next year and surprise people who are counting him out. Problem is he would have to show it in the Finals though, where the trend for him has been going downward, and next year would make it his 5th straight Finals...needless to say, the odds aren't in his favor.
I can't see wade taking a pay cut. He cares about championships sure, but let's face it, he'd be taking a cut to be a role player sidekick in lebron's legacy. I wouldn't give up millions for that.
I mean if you just look at his stats it wasn't that bad, but his defense overall went down SEVERAL notches. The heat defense in general was much worse this year and wade had a huge part in that.
Pretty crazy that the Mavericks took the Spurs to 7 games. They were even up by 10 in the 4th in the first loss, and lost two others by 4 and 6 points.
On June 17 2014 11:26 Jerubaal wrote: The first thing they have to do is see if Chris Bosh is going to grow a pair. If he and Wade can't be better than roleplayers, the team is kaputskies anyway. Maybe they need to tell Bosh he needs to be the #2. Granted, it looked fine until they got to the Finals, but I'd like to think we were being prophetic when we noted that they weren't destroying the East as much as we thought they ought to have been.
At a guess, everything you hate about Bosh he does because Spolestra and the team ask him to. He's absolutely essential to their defense and gets approximately zero credit for it. And his willingness to give up shots/rebounds/testicles and play a more perimeter game is the only reason Lebron and Wade ever have a driving lane. It's not just about raw rebounds and getting enough FGAs to inflate your point totals. Wade was awful over the last 3 games, probably due to his knees/legs betraying him, but that's why Miami looked so hopeless.
The question really then is, why will next year be any different? Or does Miami just hope that OKC wins the west next year and that they match-up better/don't have to deal with a Spur's system that exposes their defensive limitations so dramatically.
Was he waiting for a memo from Spoelstra to be more aggressive when they were getting roasted in 3 straight games? Yes, he's been the most expensive third option in the league and that's what worked for them, but they can't afford that any more.
On June 18 2014 04:20 XaI)CyRiC wrote: The issue with Wade is that he wore out in the Finals despite the Heat conserving him for large chunks of the regular season. In order to do that, they had to play Lebron big minutes and carry the team and concede homecourt advantage to both the Spurs and Pacers. I suspect that Lebron will be less willing to do those things again if doing so still results in a significantly limited Wade come Finals time.
The counter argument to the above is that Wade looked pretty good up until the Finals series, and maybe more credit should be given to the Spurs for figuring him out and playing to his weaknesses. It's uncertain whether he would've been able to do much better against any other team since the Spurs were so far ahead of everyone this year. Then again, the Spurs should be just as good next year and the Heat are in championship or bust mode, making it pretty important whether Wade can contribute vs the Spurs or not. Plus, he got rejected at the rim by Splitter
If Wade cares about winning and keeping Lebron happy, he should opt out and re-sign for less money. He's well within his rights to not do so and take the $40M over the next two seasons, but that would handicap the Heat quite a bit and could frustrate Lebron further. I highly doubt Wade gets traded since he's done so much for the franchise and has stated he wants to retire there.
Does anyone else have a problem with this mentality? Players HAVE to take as little money as possible in order for their team to have a chance of winning?
The whole point of the CBA was supposedly to create parity in the NBA, but if we have players deciding to create super teams by opting to take as little money as possible and stack the roster with under-paid talent then doesn't that defeat the whole parity purpose?
Not that Wade deserves a gigantic contract after these playoffs have shown his decline, but he's definitely still worth a decent chunk of change as is Chris Bosh.
On June 18 2014 04:20 XaI)CyRiC wrote: The issue with Wade is that he wore out in the Finals despite the Heat conserving him for large chunks of the regular season. In order to do that, they had to play Lebron big minutes and carry the team and concede homecourt advantage to both the Spurs and Pacers. I suspect that Lebron will be less willing to do those things again if doing so still results in a significantly limited Wade come Finals time.
The counter argument to the above is that Wade looked pretty good up until the Finals series, and maybe more credit should be given to the Spurs for figuring him out and playing to his weaknesses. It's uncertain whether he would've been able to do much better against any other team since the Spurs were so far ahead of everyone this year. Then again, the Spurs should be just as good next year and the Heat are in championship or bust mode, making it pretty important whether Wade can contribute vs the Spurs or not. Plus, he got rejected at the rim by Splitter
If Wade cares about winning and keeping Lebron happy, he should opt out and re-sign for less money. He's well within his rights to not do so and take the $40M over the next two seasons, but that would handicap the Heat quite a bit and could frustrate Lebron further. I highly doubt Wade gets traded since he's done so much for the franchise and has stated he wants to retire there.
Does anyone else have a problem with this mentality? Players HAVE to take as little money as possible in order for their team to have a chance of winning?
The whole point of the CBA was supposedly to create parity in the NBA, but if we have players deciding to create super teams by opting to take as little money as possible and stack the roster with under-paid talent then doesn't that defeat the whole parity purpose?
Not that Wade deserves a gigantic contract after these playoffs have shown his decline, but he's definitely still worth a decent chunk of change as is Chris Bosh.
I think that this might be the final straw as to why the owners are going to opt out of the CBA once again, when it expires in 2017 (notwithstanding that the NBPA does not have an Executive Director currently). The repeater luxury tax was supposed to break up the Big Three by Miami so that a single team could not sign all of the top talent at close to max value once their contracts were over. The only ways that I could think to solve this issue is to either stop player collusion (not going to happen), have no salary cap (owners are not going to want this), or eliminating max contracts (which might not prevent player collusion anyway).
One might look towards the MLB for a solution to small market teams. MLB's solution to give small markets a chance is to create a "Competitive Balance Draft" which rewards spendthrift/small market owners with additional draft picks after the first/second round. I don't know how this would be implemented in the NBA, but it would give small market teams something to look forward to in the future.
The problem with that is that NBA rosters are so small and talent pools so shallow that a potential "3rd round" pick would probably not be very valuable.
On June 18 2014 04:20 XaI)CyRiC wrote: The issue with Wade is that he wore out in the Finals despite the Heat conserving him for large chunks of the regular season. In order to do that, they had to play Lebron big minutes and carry the team and concede homecourt advantage to both the Spurs and Pacers. I suspect that Lebron will be less willing to do those things again if doing so still results in a significantly limited Wade come Finals time.
The counter argument to the above is that Wade looked pretty good up until the Finals series, and maybe more credit should be given to the Spurs for figuring him out and playing to his weaknesses. It's uncertain whether he would've been able to do much better against any other team since the Spurs were so far ahead of everyone this year. Then again, the Spurs should be just as good next year and the Heat are in championship or bust mode, making it pretty important whether Wade can contribute vs the Spurs or not. Plus, he got rejected at the rim by Splitter
If Wade cares about winning and keeping Lebron happy, he should opt out and re-sign for less money. He's well within his rights to not do so and take the $40M over the next two seasons, but that would handicap the Heat quite a bit and could frustrate Lebron further. I highly doubt Wade gets traded since he's done so much for the franchise and has stated he wants to retire there.
Does anyone else have a problem with this mentality? Players HAVE to take as little money as possible in order for their team to have a chance of winning?
The whole point of the CBA was supposedly to create parity in the NBA, but if we have players deciding to create super teams by opting to take as little money as possible and stack the roster with under-paid talent then doesn't that defeat the whole parity purpose?
Not that Wade deserves a gigantic contract after these playoffs have shown his decline, but he's definitely still worth a decent chunk of change as is Chris Bosh.
Players don't have to take as little money as possible in order for their team to win. No one is suggesting that Wade has to take as little money as possible for the Heat to win a championship, just less than $40M over the next two years. Also, not every player has to do that to win, but that's what's needed if you want to have 3 of the best players in the league on the same team, while also having sufficient depth around them. The Heat did something unprecedented to form their big 3, and it took unusual decisions by the big 3 to pull it off. It was their choice to take less and team up, and it certainly isn't the only way to win a championship.
You're right that the CBA was supposed to create parity, but Lebron, Wade and Bosh decided to work around it by taking less than what they're actually entitled to. The owners were hoping that the best players wouldn't be willing to take less money to team up, but they were wrong, at least when it came to MIA. They also didn't really think about the effect of limiting max contracts, which lessened the difference between what the MIA big 3 signed for and the max amount they could have signed for without taking a pay cut.
Wade could easily make a ton of money if he wanted to, but he's decided not to (thus far) in favor of joining Lebron and Bosh. The same goes for Bosh, as there are definitely teams out there who would be willing to sign him to a max contract. They're choosing not to do that in lieu of splitting up and trying to win a ring elsewhere.
My problem is more with the attitude from fans. "If he really wants to win he'd take less money."
It just perpetuates a problem. That attitude doesn't solve the parity problem that supposedly was the one of the basis for the lockout in the first place, yet it means the athletes are now making less money than they are worth.
In other words, nothing changes except that the owners are allowed to spend less.
As you said. It's not the only way for a team to win a championship, the Spurs just proved that. I just wish more fans would stop repeating the idea.
The thing is that the fans aren't necessarily wrong; if their team was going to have the best chance to win its best players should actually take less money. Not every team can be the Spurs, and even then their "big 3" all took paycuts and its finals MVP is on his rookie contract. It's not really an argument that you can win if you have a max contract player on your team.
The attitude from fans is shitty but it's more a reflection of the reality of the league at the moment.
I'd kind of be surprised if Wade or Bosh opted out. Neither is likely to get anything close to a max deal from a contender, and this is probably the last really high paying year Wade will get. My bet is that all 3 opt in.
If Lebron opts out, it seems more likely that he looks at another team than stay though. Before the finals I would have considered the chances of him leaving almost zero, but now the chances might be slim, but it isn't exactly crazy to think he would jump teams to a stronger contender. The Rockets and Bulls are both looking to make moves to add a max player this summer, and either one would give Lebron a better supporting cast than the current Heat roster. Harden, Howard and Lebron, or Rose, Lebron, and Noah with a younger supporting cast in either case might start to look a lot more promising than trying to carry the load by himself, and there are already articles in Chicago and Houston discussing the possibilities when a few weeks ago they seemed like impossibilities. Lebron left his home town Cavs, so what kind of loyalty does he have to the Heat when some fans are comparing them to the Cavs 2.0?
The problem is that both extremes are not really acceptable. It's not great when the players decide who the contenders are or when they take much less than their value, but it's not ideal to force players to move or play in places they don't want to. The only way to balance the two though is to have informal customs. I'm not sure how you could formally regulate it at all. Miami really made that situation abundantly clear, though, and now everybody is doing mental math.
wade getting a pay cut will go hand in hand with him playing less minutes and games. it's a role transition first, a pay cut second.
if pat riley can convince wade that playing a ginobili role for the heat makes sense, then the pay cut is going to scale with that. it's not like wade is still playing 40 minutes a game and also getting a pay cut.
On June 18 2014 11:03 Vindicare605 wrote: My problem is more with the attitude from fans. "If he really wants to win he'd take less money."
It just perpetuates a problem. That attitude doesn't solve the parity problem that supposedly was the one of the basis for the lockout in the first place, yet it means the athletes are now making less money than they are worth.
In other words, nothing changes except that the owners are allowed to spend less.
As you said. It's not the only way for a team to win a championship, the Spurs just proved that. I just wish more fans would stop repeating the idea.
I'd argue that dwayne is overpaid for what he's worth right now and kawhi is underpaid. Swap kawhi and dwayne wade and the series would be a lot closer, that's for sure.
Let's not just make our judgments off of this Finals. The only people on the Spurs who are really underpaid are the big three: Ginobili really only deserved more than what he got this year. TP maybe could have gotten a couple of million more somewhere else, but I don't see him getting the max. I have no idea what TD would get, but his retirement has been imminent for 4 years. I feel like this part of his career is all gravy. Splitter may be a bit overpaid. I feel like you can call everyone underpaid on this team, but I invite you to take a look at Gary Neal.
The Heat were mostly underpaid until this Finals. Battier and Allen could certainly have gotten several million more per year somewhere else. Just like Ginobili, though, the numbers made sense for Bosh and Wade until this Finals. Ironically, Allen and Battier started playing more like their salary.
One great lesson from this is, though, that you need to be very smart about your whole roster. SA is cutting corners on their whole roster. Apart from the big 3, Splitter and Belinelli, almost everyone else is a castoff from another team or a rookie. On the Heat side, you have the big 3 again, Haslem, Chalmers and Jones and everyone else is on some sort of exception or minimum salary.
You have to also take into account minutes played leading up the Finals. Miami's Big 3 is +10,000 minutes vs SA Big 3 since 2010 iirc. While Wade was garbage this Finals the real kicker is the supporting cast just dropping a deuce. Chalmers was fucking horrible. James Jones can't play D and isn't worth "court spacing". Ray Allen and Battier finally fell off too. Realize it took SEVEN years and a lot of terrible defeats for SA to make it back to the mountain top. Lebron is only 29 and at the end of next season will surpass Jordan's Bulls career in total minutes played. There is a lot of rebuilding that needs to go on for this team but it isn't just "Wade/Bosh aren't worth it". Just like the 2011 playoffs the role players are a pretty big deal when teams this good get destroyed.
On June 18 2014 15:19 Jerubaal wrote: Ginobili really only deserved more than what he got this year.
No way, end of last year he would've been lucky to get any team paying him what the Spurs did. They could've got away with a lot less in that market but decided to look after him instead. Of course it paid massive dividends but after the 2013 finals he was looking terribly washed up.
On June 18 2014 14:45 Itsmedudeman wrote: Well, still, it's not fair to say the spurs proved anything when they're underpaying some of their players and the heat are overpaying.
You can't be serious... The Spurs supporting cast is full of low draft picks and rejects who are paid roughly what the market was for them. The bobcats didn't even want Diaw... Spurs backups just tend to look underpaid because of the system, the minutes and the quality shots they get. The Heat took way more paycuts than the Spurs anyway. Lebron (insane value), Allen, Birdman etc.
FYI, I'm going to let someone else put together the offseason thread, at which point I'll lock this one. I'm thinking that something that lays out important dates like this post on the NBA reddit might be nice.
On June 19 2014 04:42 XaI)CyRiC wrote: FYI, I'm going to let someone else put together the offseason thread, at which point I'll lock this one. I'm thinking that something that lays out important dates like this post on the NBA reddit might be nice.
The what if website sunk like a hour of my day and was only interrupted by an important email. I am like about to go back into it. This years Lakers were barely beating the 1973 Capitol Bullets...
A stress fracture?? Really? So he got a stress fracture on a foot bone from playing/practicing/working out at the NCAA level...? What would happen to this guy at the NBA level...? I'm OUT!! And I hope for Cleveland's sake, they are too... Take Parker or Wiggins, or trade down...
Cleveland will DEFINITELY take Embiid now, with word of the new injury. Can you imagine the power of the Embiid + Bennett duo?
On June 18 2014 17:47 Ace wrote: You have to also take into account minutes played leading up the Finals. Miami's Big 3 is +10,000 minutes vs SA Big 3 since 2010 iirc. While Wade was garbage this Finals the real kicker is the supporting cast just dropping a deuce. Chalmers was fucking horrible. James Jones can't play D and isn't worth "court spacing". Ray Allen and Battier finally fell off too. Realize it took SEVEN years and a lot of terrible defeats for SA to make it back to the mountain top. Lebron is only 29 and at the end of next season will surpass Jordan's Bulls career in total minutes played. There is a lot of rebuilding that needs to go on for this team but it isn't just "Wade/Bosh aren't worth it". Just like the 2011 playoffs the role players are a pretty big deal when teams this good get destroyed.
Eliot Shorr-Parks @EliotShorrParks ESPN study showed 6 big men in NBA history have suffered navicular bone injuries. They played in 47.5% of games after surgery #Embiid
edit: no idea if missing games is directly linked to injury though. That stat could be a bit misleading as said players might have missed time for other unrelated injuries.
Hard to know what's on the table. Some say it's Lee+Klay+Barnes+2015 1st/Lee+Klay+Barnes/Lee+Barnes+2015 1st.
If they could keep either Klay or Barnes and get Love it would be a good deal. But they'll likely have to take Kevin Martin's horrible contract on too. Hopefully they'd waive him.
Eliot Shorr-Parks @EliotShorrParks ESPN study showed 6 big men in NBA history have suffered navicular bone injuries. They played in 47.5% of games after surgery #Embiid
edit: no idea if missing games is directly linked to injury though. That stat could be a bit misleading as said players might have missed time for other unrelated injuries.
i think its sort of a bad sign if he's has gotten an "overuse" injury thus far in his career. i wonder who would want to take the risk
If you didn't have Wiggins, Parker and Exum behind then you probably take the risk on Embiid.
But Cleveland is going to be VERY reticent to take any sort of risk after the Bennett disaster. I doubt they take Embiid now.
Which leaves a huge choice for Milwaukee. I'd say the Cavs take Wiggins and Milwaukee shits itself over Embiid/Parker. I think Embiid has the highest ceiling in this group but he's also got some Oden potential there too.
Milwaukee might be tempted to keep Sanders and take Parker at #2. Does Philly then take Embiid given they already have Noel? I think they have too but it's not a good situation with two young bigs needing playing time. Philly is praying pretty hard one of Parker or Wiggins falls to them I think. Not sure they'd take Exum and guys like Smart, Vonleh, Randle aren't in the same league IMO.
Orlando's quietly pooping themselves with delight IMO. Embiid might just fall to them at #4 at this rate.
It's going to be really interesting to see what happens with Embiid at the draft. It's not just that he was the top prospect, but he was widely considered to be a whole tier above Jabari and Wiggins as well. Each team that gets the chance to take him will be facing the two greatest extremes for a draft pick, potential 2-way, potential franchise player PF/C vs the next coming of Bowie/Oden. Of course Embiid could also end up being perfectly healthy but end up not fulfilling the potential people are placing on him, but the current perceptions are going to make it a really though decision for teams that end up having the option of drafting him.
At this point, it becomes a risk vs reward analysis and teams will have to weigh the risk/reward of Embiid with whoever is available at the time. I think that CLE and MIL could pass on him comfortably since the other options are Jabari and Wiggins, but it gets murkier after that. Exum is a popular 3rd pick right now, but there's not much actual evidence teams have to base their decisions on since his experience has been limited and overseas. Do you really pass on the potential of a franchise big for a relatively unknown combo guard? It gets even more difficult once you go to the next tier of Smart/Vonleh/Randle/Gordon/etc., since all of them have their issues and flaws.
It's going to be an interesting draft in the first round that's for sure
I have watched absolutely none of Exum. I don't even know what he looks like. But you cannot pass on a seven footer with the hands and feet that Embiid has with his upside (four years of basketball!!) for a guy who likely hasn't played any competition that's near D-I NCAA basketball. Perhaps I'm wrong, but on the face of it, it's just seems silly.
Now, what do you do with Parker and Wiggins? I think you have to roll the dice. Oden was an outlier; his one leg was significantly shorter than his other one. Bowie had some injury concerns in college, if I recall correctly, but his injuries sounded like freak occurrences (I wasn't alive during his career, so I can't comment on him in that regard). Regardless, I don't think using previous people, who have entirely different styles of play, played in different eras with different conditioning, are completely different people and whatnot makes any sense when discussing a guy today. I immediately thought of Yao when I heard the news about Embiid, but then I remembered that Yao was half a foot taller and carried much more weight. I don't think the foot should be a big enough deterrent to make the Cavs shy away.
Oh, who am I kidding, this is the Cavs we're talking about. They'll do something silly and take Aaron Gordon anyway.
2. Noah Vonleh climbing into the top 5?? Crazy. He's not that good. He was not special at Indiana.
3. I love Marcus Smart. But I think he will be a major disappointment if you're expecting an All-Star player. I'm not even so sure he can start in the modern NBA. He can't really shoot, but loves to do so at volume. On the other hand, he is strong, he has pretty good ball skills and he can finish at the rim. Still, I think he's a below-average starter or a rotation guy who can occasionally take advantage of his size.
4. Cleanthony Early, Aaron Gordon and Zach Lavine are my favorite players of the draft. I saw a lot of both players in the Pac-12, both guys are awesome. Lavine is an elegant player, fluid and awesome jumpz. He can't pass, and for a mega-athlete, he can't seem to play physical. Aaron Gordon is a great prospect, his only problem is he's an inch shorter than ideal. I never saw Cleanthony Early except in the two tournaments, where he was a beast. But he's 23.
That being said, I am an athleticism whore. Al-Farouq Aminu! Corey Brewer! Brandon Wright! Wait...this never works.
5. Speaking of athleticism whore, Andrew Wiggins...could bust. I don't see a top-10 player there. Why can't he finish at the rim???? I'd still take him number one overall though. 2athl33t
On June 21 2014 12:04 zulu_nation8 wrote: what's gonna happen when embiid gets drafted though? Is he gonna walk on stage on crutches? Would be hilarious if he goes 1st anyway.
I think Parker is the "surest" thing in the draft like Melo was back in 03. I think any team that drafts him is likely getting an a good to very good player but is he a "star"? He doesn't have the ceiling they're projecting Wiggins or Embiid could reach.
Wiggins is kinda like Wade in that he's an amazing athlete but people aren't sure if he's going to make it in the NBA (not saying Wiggins will be anything close to Wade but he's enigmatic like Wade was in 03...).
Exum could be the Darko Millicic of this draft. He only finished High School last year but dominated a recent u19 World Champs for Australia. He's a big PG (compared to Penny H) at 6'6 and has a lightning quick first step albeit not a super athlete (think Tony Parker I guess). He's a huge project who won't be a serious contributor for at least three years but the upside if he hits it is massive.
Cleveland can't afford to miss this time so they're def taking one of Parker/Wiggins with Embiid's injury. Milwaukee's in a similar boat with new ownership and a disgruntled fanbase. Not sure they're willing to risk an Embiid pick and leave Parker/Wigg on the table. I think Wiggins goes 1, Parker 2.
On June 21 2014 23:23 RowdierBob wrote: Exum could be the Darko Millicic of this draft. He only finished High School last year but dominated a recent u19 World Champs for Australia. He's a big PG (compared to Penny H) at 6'6 and has a lightning quick first step albeit not a super athlete (think Tony Parker I guess). He's a huge project who won't be a serious contributor for at least three years but the upside if he hits it is massive.
He was great against the other lower-level talent but he got shut down pretty hard by Marcus Smart. I dunno, I was thoroughly unimpressed. Granted Smart could be the best NBA defender from this draft, but Exum didn't want anything to do with him. He wasn't even battling.
I hate potential picks (it's the Darko bias) and capping a player's potential based on imaginary perceptions is ridiculous to me. Also, you don't take project guards. There's too many guards available and they're the quickest to make the jump from college/foreign to NBA-level.
FWIW I'd rather have Smart over anybody, besides healthy Embiid and Wiggins (depending on the team.) His jumpshot is a bit broken, but his release is fine. Low 3pt % just tells me he's bad at NBA long 2's, which is fine and he's a far better finisher than Wiggins. And he actually shot well when open, his issue was taking contested shots. He got better against tougher matchups and always took the lead scorer on defense.
And as John Thompson says, it's easier to calm a fool than revive a corpse.
If Smart becomes Rodney Stuckey (that's assuming jump shot doesn't improve much) + excellent defense, that's actually a really, really good NBA player.
Smart's a better player now but you've got to look long term.
Exum is very raw but has the great tools to become an NBA star.
Does Smart turn out much better than Tony Allen with a little more offence (or that Stuckey reference)? As you say, that's a really good NBA player but not someone you can build around. If Exum hits his ceiling, that's a franchise type guy there.
Plenty of young guys like Exum are taken on potential. Look at T Mac, KG, Kobe. Of course there's always the flip side like Gerald Green or Seb Telfair but these teams aren't going to take Exum on a hope and prayer--they've obv seen something they think will translate to longer term success.
I had this idea last year, but someone needs to photoshop a kilt onto Duncan with the caption"You're not my king." (Duncan is the name of a Scottish king.)
On June 22 2014 10:38 RowdierBob wrote: Smart's a better player now but you've got to look long term.
Exum is very raw but has the great tools to become an NBA star.
Does Smart turn out much better than Tony Allen with a little more offence (or that Stuckey reference)? As you say, that's a really good NBA player but not someone you can build around. If Exum hits his ceiling, that's a franchise type guy there.
Plenty of young guys like Exum are taken on potential. Look at T Mac, KG, Kobe. Of course there's always the flip side like Gerald Green or Seb Telfair but these teams aren't going to take Exum on a hope and prayer--they've obv seen something they think will translate to longer term success.
So he can't shoot the three, which obviously hurts his team's spacing. He is, however, an extremely efficient offensive player who doesn't require a large number of possessions or minutes. On the defensive end, he's elite. Does that make him a top fifty or hundred player in terms of value? Probably not, because he's a wing, but if he was a center, he'd certainly be worth being picked in the top handful of selections.
On June 22 2014 10:38 RowdierBob wrote: Smart's a better player now but you've got to look long term.
Exum is very raw but has the great tools to become an NBA star.
Does Smart turn out much better than Tony Allen with a little more offence (or that Stuckey reference)? As you say, that's a really good NBA player but not someone you can build around. If Exum hits his ceiling, that's a franchise type guy there.
Plenty of young guys like Exum are taken on potential. Look at T Mac, KG, Kobe. Of course there's always the flip side like Gerald Green or Seb Telfair but these teams aren't going to take Exum on a hope and prayer--they've obv seen something they think will translate to longer term success.
So he can't shoot the three, which obviously hurts his team's spacing. He is, however, an extremely efficient offensive player who doesn't require a large number of possessions or minutes. On the defensive end, he's elite. Does that make him a top fifty or hundred player in terms of value? Probably not, because he's a wing, but if he was a center, he'd certainly be worth being picked in the top handful of selections.
Isn't that just positional value, in general though? I mean most teams have trouble finding a center who is competent, let alone elite at any skill. I mean, if Tim Duncan had even 2014 Finals Dwayne Wade levels of athleticism he would be the greatest player in the history of the NBA, and it wouldn't be close.
Well, the positional value issue doesn't really apply to the Exum vs. Smart thing because they're both guards, but maybe that's the answer to my question. Guards who can't score perhaps are just limited. I don't understand your theoretical though. Care to explain?
On June 22 2014 10:38 RowdierBob wrote: Smart's a better player now but you've got to look long term.
Exum is very raw but has the great tools to become an NBA star.
Does Smart turn out much better than Tony Allen with a little more offence (or that Stuckey reference)? As you say, that's a really good NBA player but not someone you can build around. If Exum hits his ceiling, that's a franchise type guy there.
Plenty of young guys like Exum are taken on potential. Look at T Mac, KG, Kobe. Of course there's always the flip side like Gerald Green or Seb Telfair but these teams aren't going to take Exum on a hope and prayer--they've obv seen something they think will translate to longer term success.
I'm saying 1. potential talk is dubious at best 2. The competition thing is going to be a factor. He had a couple games against good American college players and didn't impress. Beating up on foreign u19 teams, even Spain's, doesn't impress me.
On June 22 2014 11:49 AgentW wrote: Well, the positional value issue doesn't really apply to the Exum vs. Smart thing because they're both guards, but maybe that's the answer to my question. Guards who can't score perhaps are just limited. I don't understand your theoretical though. Care to explain?
The athletic Tim Duncan theoretical? Lets just pretend we have 2003?2004? Duncan. He is an incredibly skilled 7 foot tall player. But even at his peak he was slower, with less vertical than 2014 Wade. It has nothing to do with Exum vs. Smart, as you said, I was just commenting on whoever said defensive centers are more valuable than defensive wings, with the point that centers with any skill are more valuable than any other position X with that same skill, because its almost impossible to find 7'0" people who can hold a basketball, let alone jump and shoot and run.
I think the funny thing about this discussion is how binary great big men are. With guards you can argue all day whether this guard is better than that guard. I can name the great big men in NBA history right now:
Russell, Chamberlain, Abdul-Jabar, Malone, Ewing, Olajuwon, Shaq, Robinson, Duncan. That's it. The second tier is like Ralph Sampson and Yao. This seems to suggest that most big men aren't very talented and the few that are really stand out.
On June 22 2014 11:49 AgentW wrote: Well, the positional value issue doesn't really apply to the Exum vs. Smart thing because they're both guards, but maybe that's the answer to my question. Guards who can't score perhaps are just limited. I don't understand your theoretical though. Care to explain?
The athletic Tim Duncan theoretical? Lets just pretend we have 2003?2004? Duncan. He is an incredibly skilled 7 foot tall player. But even at his peak he was slower, with less vertical than 2014 Wade. It has nothing to do with Exum vs. Smart, as you said, I was just commenting on whoever said defensive centers are more valuable than defensive wings, with the point that centers with any skill are more valuable than any other position X with that same skill, because its almost impossible to find 7'0" people who can hold a basketball, let alone jump and shoot and run.
I brought it up. I see the argument: athletic guards are a relative dime a dozen. But what if Allen's just a tier above the run of the mill guys, which he seems to be?
well if you look at guys like yao and howard you can see why in the modern context, what it takes for a center to have a 15 year, best 3 player in the league career is just incredibly rare. physical ability, skill, and health. reason why 'golden age' of basketball had more dominant big men was because of the generally lower skill and ability of play back in the day and hte associated different strats equilibrium.
he is shorter but still makes up for it with the athleticism. i guess pure height is also devalued in the modern game compared to the russell-chamberlain era.
On June 22 2014 10:38 RowdierBob wrote: Smart's a better player now but you've got to look long term.
Exum is very raw but has the great tools to become an NBA star.
Does Smart turn out much better than Tony Allen with a little more offence (or that Stuckey reference)? As you say, that's a really good NBA player but not someone you can build around. If Exum hits his ceiling, that's a franchise type guy there.
Plenty of young guys like Exum are taken on potential. Look at T Mac, KG, Kobe. Of course there's always the flip side like Gerald Green or Seb Telfair but these teams aren't going to take Exum on a hope and prayer--they've obv seen something they think will translate to longer term success.
I'm saying 1. potential talk is dubious at best 2. The competition thing is going to be a factor. He had a couple games against good American college players and didn't impress. Beating up on foreign u19 teams, even Spain's, doesn't impress me.
I don't think he's that rare.
He was still only 17 at that tournament carrying the bulk of the offensive load for that team.
You can't judge him on one game--I doubt he's ever played anyone near Smart's ability and it's something he'll have to work on. But does he have the tools to do that? Obviously yes. Professional scouts have been working him over for weeks now--he's not going top five on "potential talk" alone. The kid obviously has something worth investing in. This of course is no guarantee he'll make it but he's worth the chance.
Given you're a big Michigan fan, how do you think Stauskas will go in the NBA and is he more than a role player?
On June 22 2014 13:01 Jerubaal wrote: I think the funny thing about this discussion is how binary great big men are. With guards you can argue all day whether this guard is better than that guard. I can name the great big men in NBA history right now:
Russell, Chamberlain, Abdul-Jabar, Malone, Ewing, Olajuwon, Shaq, Robinson, Duncan. That's it. The second tier is like Ralph Sampson and Yao. This seems to suggest that most big men aren't very talented and the few that are really stand out.
On paper, Dirk could be on that list, but that guy is such a weird big man cause his primary weapon is his jump shot, not his post presence. He also kinda sucks on the defensive end, which is the reason why he couldn't win a ring until the Mavs got Tyson Chandler.
Given you're a big Michigan fan, how do you think Stauskas will go in the NBA and is he more than a role player?
Before last year I would've said no. He picked up a lot of slack though after Burke left, especially in handling the ball. He's by no means elite at anything besides shooting, but he can put the ball on the ground so he's more than just a spot up shooter. I doubt he'll even be an average slasher at the NBA level (not quick and dribbles too high,) but he's got a pretty slick step back and fadeaway, so he can usually create his own shot from a PnR or handoff. He's also a surprisingly clever passer.
Defensively, he'll probably be bad. Not super quick or long. On ball, he'll work for it but just isn't quick for the NBA. Off-ball, he's surprisingly bad at chasing guys around (even though he's good at it on offense.)
I think the appeal of him is that he shoots like a pure shooter, but he's a little bit more versatile than they usually are. Kevin Martin is a pretty fair comparison, although Stauskas is probably a bit more athletic at his age and I like his shot more.
On June 22 2014 15:31 imBLIND wrote: On paper, Dirk could be on that list, but that guy is such a weird big man cause his primary weapon is his jump shot, not his post presence. He also kinda sucks on the defensive end, which is the reason why he couldn't win a ring until the Mavs got Tyson Chandler.
and what about Shaq, Malone, and Kareem then? Mavs couldn't win because the roster wasn't good enough and they ran into better teams. I hope you weren't expecting Dirk to stop Wade in 2006 and 2011
Bill Simmons @BillSimmons 31m NBA peeps are worried about the Bulls right now. A starting 5 of Rose, Afflalo, Carmelo, Taj + Noah w/ Butler as 6th man is VERY doable.
Would be nice. The East could use a second good team. If the 8th Seed in the West (Mavs) were in the East this Year, the probably would have reached the Conference Finals.
On June 22 2014 13:01 Jerubaal wrote: I think the funny thing about this discussion is how binary great big men are. With guards you can argue all day whether this guard is better than that guard. I can name the great big men in NBA history right now:
Russell, Chamberlain, Abdul-Jabar, Malone, Ewing, Olajuwon, Shaq, Robinson, Duncan. That's it. The second tier is like Ralph Sampson and Yao. This seems to suggest that most big men aren't very talented and the few that are really stand out.
First of all, I think your being too simple here. Even in your "elite" tier there is clearly at least 2 tiers with Ewing and Robinson clearly below the others (also is Malone really that 'big'?, if he is don't you need to put on guys like Rodman and Moses Malone?).
Second you are forgetting about more 2nd tier guys like Parish, McHale, Walton etc.
But that doesn't change the fact that there are not many talented big guys. An on to Dirk...
On June 22 2014 15:31 imBLIND wrote: On paper, Dirk could be on that list, but that guy is such a weird big man cause his primary weapon is his jump shot, not his post presence. He also kinda sucks on the defensive end, which is the reason why he couldn't win a ring until the Mavs got Tyson Chandler.
and what about Shaq, Malone, and Kareem then? Mavs couldn't win because the roster wasn't good enough and they ran into better teams. I hope you weren't expecting Dirk to stop Wade in 2006 and 2011
Well, a good defensive big probably would have made a big difference in 2006. Maybe Wade wouldn't have taken 4000 FTs that series.
On June 22 2014 17:33 Jerubaal wrote: I didn't include Dirk because I don't think he fits what we were talking about. Dirk is a stretch 4 who happens to be 7 feet tall.
Isn't that kinda the point? He really isn't better than Kyle Korver at anything...except being 7 Feet tall.
On June 22 2014 10:38 RowdierBob wrote: Smart's a better player now but you've got to look long term.
Exum is very raw but has the great tools to become an NBA star.
Does Smart turn out much better than Tony Allen with a little more offence (or that Stuckey reference)? As you say, that's a really good NBA player but not someone you can build around. If Exum hits his ceiling, that's a franchise type guy there.
Plenty of young guys like Exum are taken on potential. Look at T Mac, KG, Kobe. Of course there's always the flip side like Gerald Green or Seb Telfair but these teams aren't going to take Exum on a hope and prayer--they've obv seen something they think will translate to longer term success.
I'm saying 1. potential talk is dubious at best 2. The competition thing is going to be a factor. He had a couple games against good American college players and didn't impress. Beating up on foreign u19 teams, even Spain's, doesn't impress me.
I don't think he's that rare.
He was still only 17 at that tournament carrying the bulk of the offensive load for that team.
You can't judge him on one game
In the same tournament Smart was convincingly outplayed head to head both times by Vasile Micic. I guess he should go top five then right? Tbh I found Smart extremely underwhelming last season in college.
Ignore that, obviously our guy is going to be awesome
Bill Simmons @BillSimmons 31m NBA peeps are worried about the Bulls right now. A starting 5 of Rose, Afflalo, Carmelo, Taj + Noah w/ Butler as 6th man is VERY doable.
Would be nice. The East could use a second good team. If the 8th Seed in the West (Mavs) were in the East this Year, the probably would have reached the Conference Finals.
I'm confused how they flip for Afflalo. Wouldn't they have to swap Gibson or Butler? Oh wait, it would have to be Mirotic.
Hes not the best fit alongside Melo + its not about amassing good players, its about getting underpaid players. Preferably massively underpaid players.
On June 23 2014 09:54 cLutZ wrote: Hes not the best fit alongside Melo + its not about amassing good players, its about getting underpaid players. Preferably massively underpaid players.
Tbh noone is good fit alongside Melo's endless ball hogging and his defensive incapability.
he can play good defense if he tries really hard or if he had a coach who knows what to say to him, when Woodson first took over, Melo's defense was ok to good I think. I can't think of anyone in the NBA who's underpaid except for maybe a few veteran contracts. Rookie contracts don't count.
On June 23 2014 20:45 zulu_nation8 wrote: he can play good defense if he tries really hard or if he had a coach who knows what to say to him, when Woodson first took over, Melo's defense was ok to good I think. I can't think of anyone in the NBA who's underpaid except for maybe a few veteran contracts. Rookie contracts don't count.
Well, rookies are a sizeable portion of the proposed trade. Also many players like Curry and Noah outperform contracts. And, of course, elite players like LBJ significantly outperform max deals.
He doesn't want to be the leader on the court, if you have a good PG and other players and let Melo just play the game he's very good. Look at what he did when he played in the Olympics and stuff.
It's like Boris Diaw who was chill AF and kind of lazy but a good player if you can figure out how to give him what he needs.
So apparently Parker was purposefully tanking his private workout with the Cavs, because he REALLY wants to go to Milwaukee (~1 hour drive to his hometown chicago). Wiggins, on the other hand, was quite impressive in the Cavs workout... Shows a lot about a guy's character when he willingly does bad in something in which he should always try his best....
On June 24 2014 01:13 SwARmZzz wrote: So apparently Parker was purposefully tanking his private workout with the Cavs, because he REALLY wants to go to Milwaukee (~1 hour drive to his hometown chicago). Wiggins, on the other hand, was quite impressive in the Cavs workout... Shows a lot about a guy's character when he willingly does bad in something in which he should always try his best....
Why? The Cavs have been a horribly managed train wreck for years. Their owner is a tantrum throwing little shit. Kyrie & Waiters get along great as you may have heard. What part of that situation is attractive? Why shouldn't Parker decide he'd be much happier in Milwaukee and work to make that happen?
Also unsupported claims of player motivation and desires are usually from like Boxden or other equally bullshit sources.
On June 24 2014 01:13 SwARmZzz wrote: So apparently Parker was purposefully tanking his private workout with the Cavs, because he REALLY wants to go to Milwaukee (~1 hour drive to his hometown chicago). Wiggins, on the other hand, was quite impressive in the Cavs workout... Shows a lot about a guy's character when he willingly does bad in something in which he should always try his best....
It's interesting that in the recent espn 30 for 30 on the Detroit Pistons, it was noted that Isiah Thomas, a Chicago native who didn't want Detroit to draft him, recalled tanking the pre-draft interview with McCloskey, and giving every wrong answer he could. McCloskey assured him it didn't matter and the Pistons drafted him anyway.
Rick Mahorn did a similar thing after being traded to Detroit: "I didn't like Isiah, I didn't like Laimbeer, I couldn't stand Detroit. I didn't want to come, I didn't work out all summer," Mahorn said.
On June 24 2014 01:13 SwARmZzz wrote: So apparently Parker was purposefully tanking his private workout with the Cavs, because he REALLY wants to go to Milwaukee (~1 hour drive to his hometown chicago). Wiggins, on the other hand, was quite impressive in the Cavs workout... Shows a lot about a guy's character when he willingly does bad in something in which he should always try his best....
Why? The Cavs have been a horribly managed train wreck for years. Their owner is a tantrum throwing little shit. Kyrie & Waiters get along great as you may have heard. What part of that situation is attractive? Why shouldn't Parker decide he'd be much happier in Milwaukee and work to make that happen?
Also unsupported claims of player motivation and desires are usually from like Boxden or other equally bullshit sources.
Absolutely agree. If you told me I could sacrifice about $2M over four years to play in a way better situation, I'd do it too. That money's probably not going to matter in the long run.
this sort of thing probably happens way more often than is reported. but i don't really see how anyone would draft parker over wiggins anyway. okay a lot of them would but they prob regret it later
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/HK9430W.jpg)
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Spurs <AT&T Center> 
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Spurs are just outclassing them
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