On September 22 2012 00:44 ShadeR wrote: Sorry if this has been answered before but i read the last 15 posts in this thread with "heel" in them and it didn't come up. When running and landing forefoot first should your heels ever touch the ground? I've been avoiding letting my heels touch the ground ever when running and oh boy do you calves get a fkn sweet workout. Though as i get more tired i still try to land forefoot first with heels making contact witht he ground immediately after until eventually reverting completely to heel striking when im at my limit.
TLDR: Should my heels make contact with the ground when running/jogging?
It's fine for your heel to touch the ground when you run but it shouldn't be taking the full weight of your body. I can't see it being possible to run anything over 10k with your heel not making any contact with the ground. Your calves should strengthen the more you run. I have some "minimal" type footwear that forces you to engage your calves more that I use a couple times a week. Your knees will let you know if you're putting too much impact on your heel. I may be wrong so wait until some of the more experienced runners to answer. I'm off to youtube WR marathon runs to check out their heels!
I have to disagree and say that letting your heel touch the ground is bad. Running (forefoot/midfoot striking) is much different than walking (heel-to-toe) in that running is like bouncing from foot to foot.
I used to completely be a heel striker, and holy damn did I get injured a lot. Heel striking is one of the biggest reasons people get injured from running. Maybe not immediately, but eventually. And when I switched to midfoot running I got the same feeling ShadeR is getting where my legs got tired in places I didn't even know existed. But by sticking to proper form I managed to build up to 13 mile runs, without injury, and without any leg fatigue.
I had considerably less injuries when I switched to minimalist/mid foot striking running. If you don't ever let your heel touch, you're running as if your in a full out sprint... I found it much more manageable and comfortable to midfoot strike and let my heel touch for a split second for long runs. Maybe I just haven't developed the endurance yet but my buddy tried that and he was dying on our runs while me and my other friend were fine.
On September 22 2012 00:44 ShadeR wrote: Sorry if this has been answered before but i read the last 15 posts in this thread with "heel" in them and it didn't come up. When running and landing forefoot first should your heels ever touch the ground? I've been avoiding letting my heels touch the ground ever when running and oh boy do you calves get a fkn sweet workout. Though as i get more tired i still try to land forefoot first with heels making contact witht he ground immediately after until eventually reverting completely to heel striking when im at my limit.
TLDR: Should my heels make contact with the ground when running/jogging?
It's fine for your heel to touch the ground when you run but it shouldn't be taking the full weight of your body. I can't see it being possible to run anything over 10k with your heel not making any contact with the ground. Your calves should strengthen the more you run. I have some "minimal" type footwear that forces you to engage your calves more that I use a couple times a week. Your knees will let you know if you're putting too much impact on your heel. I may be wrong so wait until some of the more experienced runners to answer. I'm off to youtube WR marathon runs to check out their heels!
I have to disagree and say that letting your heel touch the ground is bad. Running (forefoot/midfoot striking) is much different than walking (heel-to-toe) in that running is like bouncing from foot to foot.
I used to completely be a heel striker, and holy damn did I get injured a lot. Heel striking is one of the biggest reasons people get injured from running. Maybe not immediately, but eventually. And when I switched to midfoot running I got the same feeling ShadeR is getting where my legs got tired in places I didn't even know existed. But by sticking to proper form I managed to build up to 13 mile runs, without injury, and without any leg fatigue.
Avoiding heel-striking is different that your heel not touching the ground.
As Hanakurena pointed out many elite runners heel-strike. However, their "heelstrike" is much different than the classic beginner heel-strike. Elites that heel strike still land their foot right underneath their center of gravity for a smooth, efficient, and quiet transfer of energy. Many newer runners however, perhaps in an effort to have a longer stride" land with their heel well out in front of the center of mass which not only sends tons of jarring force right up the heel, leg, and hips but also acts as a "breaking" effect slowing you down.
That, in my opinion, is what you should be most worried about. Make sure you're taking quick, efficient strides (strides length doesn't come from reaching, it comes from force applied to the ground); almost feeling like your stride is a little shorter and quicker than it should be.
As to never touching your heel to the ground...no it would be unwise to force it not to. Some people naturally run up on their toes (and almost also sprinters do, but the faster you run the more tendency to forefoot strike there is) but if that isn't your natural gait consciously trying to keep your heel of the ground is unwise.
Take a look at Moses Mosop (forefoot striker) in this video around 33-35 seconds. You'll see he lands nicely on his forefoot with his foot right under his COG but that his heel also touches the ground. In other words, the heel can contact the ground without being a heel strike.
On September 22 2012 00:44 ShadeR wrote: Sorry if this has been answered before but i read the last 15 posts in this thread with "heel" in them and it didn't come up. When running and landing forefoot first should your heels ever touch the ground? I've been avoiding letting my heels touch the ground ever when running and oh boy do you calves get a fkn sweet workout. Though as i get more tired i still try to land forefoot first with heels making contact witht he ground immediately after until eventually reverting completely to heel striking when im at my limit.
TLDR: Should my heels make contact with the ground when running/jogging?
It's fine for your heel to touch the ground when you run but it shouldn't be taking the full weight of your body. I can't see it being possible to run anything over 10k with your heel not making any contact with the ground. Your calves should strengthen the more you run. I have some "minimal" type footwear that forces you to engage your calves more that I use a couple times a week. Your knees will let you know if you're putting too much impact on your heel. I may be wrong so wait until some of the more experienced runners to answer. I'm off to youtube WR marathon runs to check out their heels!
I have to disagree and say that letting your heel touch the ground is bad. Running (forefoot/midfoot striking) is much different than walking (heel-to-toe) in that running is like bouncing from foot to foot.
I used to completely be a heel striker, and holy damn did I get injured a lot. Heel striking is one of the biggest reasons people get injured from running. Maybe not immediately, but eventually. And when I switched to midfoot running I got the same feeling ShadeR is getting where my legs got tired in places I didn't even know existed. But by sticking to proper form I managed to build up to 13 mile runs, without injury, and without any leg fatigue.
Avoiding heel-striking is different that your heel not touching the ground.
As Hanakurena pointed out many elite runners heel-strike. However, their "heelstrike" is much different than the classic beginner heel-strike. Elites that heel strike still land their foot right underneath their center of gravity for a smooth, efficient, and quiet transfer of energy. Many newer runners however, perhaps in an effort to have a longer stride" land with their heel well out in front of the center of mass which not only sends tons of jarring force right up the heel, leg, and hips but also acts as a "breaking" effect slowing you down.
That, in my opinion, is what you should be most worried about. Make sure you're taking quick, efficient strides (strides length doesn't come from reaching, it comes from force applied to the ground); almost feeling like your stride is a little shorter and quicker than it should be.
As to never touching your heel to the ground...no it would be unwise to force it not to. Some people naturally run up on their toes (and almost also sprinters do, but the faster you run the more tendency to forefoot strike there is) but if that isn't your natural gait consciously trying to keep your heel of the ground is unwise.
Take a look at Moses Mosop (forefoot striker) in this video around 33-35 seconds. You'll see he lands nicely on his forefoot with his foot right under his COG but that his heel also touches the ground. In other words, the heel can contact the ground without being a heel strike.
Yeah you're right, forcing the heel to not touch the ground is a mistake. I should've chosen my words more carefully. Still, heel-striking and heel-touching(?) are two very different things that shouldn't get mixed up.
There is still debate on this. Dr.Nicholas Romanov of pose running responds to the 'most elites run with heel stride' saying that they would be better off still with a mid food stride.
A study was done on pose running (which is mid to front foot strike) by the University of Cape Town. The guy writing science of sports apparently was one of helpers in the research. The study was published and had some results that show that indeed subjects were running differently. But it didn't say many subjects had problems and injuries with calf muscle and achillis tendon issues.
Now if this is only because they need to get used to the new but more economical and thus superior form of running first or if this style of running has it's own problems making it not ideal for these runners is something that still can be debated.
It's also not about the heel not touching the ground. The heel will always touch the ground even for frond and mid foot strikers. These elite runners are indeed true heel strikers according to that research. Of course their are bad and good ways to run heel strike. Too taking too long of a stride or landing at the wrong point relative to your center of mass, all these things can be done.
Ok... After spending in inordinate amount of time youtubing elite distance runners I can defiantly say 100% of them let their heels touch the ground. I see we've resolved the difference between "touching" and "striking" so no need to go into it further.
I will say that watching races is surprisingly entertaining. It's easy to forget that running involves technique and at the top level that technique is stunning to behold! A regular swimmer looks like a dying whale compared to an olympian. The same could be said when comparing your average enthusiast to a Haile Gebrselassie.
Heel, mid or front striking is about where they land first.
Almost all of them land on their heel first. Now this is barefoot but that gives more emphasis. To land om the mid foot or forefoot requires a big difference.
You can see a rare forefoot runner at 1:06. He still touches the ground with his heel. They all do (I think), which means the foot as a whole is doing quite a funny movement if you think about it.
From memory I think forefoot and midfoot running are still disproportionately represented at the elite level compared to lower levels, which may mean forefoot runners have an advantage. It may also mean those that whose natural running form, as dictated by genetics, is to be a mid or fotefoot striker have exactly that genetic advantage while natural heel strikers are still best off striking with their heel first (in the correcy way of course).
On September 22 2012 05:41 caznitch wrote: Ok... After spending in inordinate amount of time youtubing elite distance runners I can defiantly say 100% of them let their heels touch the ground. I see we've resolved the difference between "touching" and "striking" so no need to go into it further.
I will say that watching races is surprisingly entertaining. It's easy to forget that running involves technique and at the top level that technique is stunning to behold! A regular swimmer looks like a dying whale compared to an olympian. The same could be said when comparing your average enthusiast to a Haile Gebrselassie.
Yea I haven't seen any elite runners with no heel touch, but with sprinter's it's fairly common. Just take a look at bolt running + Show Spoiler [Bolt Slo-Mo] +
here:
I think Ross Tucker's (of science of sport) analysis has merit, where he claims that the faster you go the more footstriking tends to come into play.
And yes, totally agree about watching races; incredibly fun to do and it's why I follow track and field. Not only can the races themselves be compelling, it's just fun to watch people doing what you enjoy doing and performing it so beautifully.
Here are two must see races if you haven't (the first if just an absolutely epic race, and the second is probably the greatest 5k ever run:
From memory I think forefoot and midfoot running are still disproportionately represented at the elite level compared to lower levels, which may mean forefoot runners have an advantage
Yea, that's correct. I really liked Ross's thinking that these foot strikes aren't more common because the runners are elite, but because they are running faster, which generally requires a more forward strike as you get faster, up until the point your at a full sprint in which case almost everyone forefoot strikes and some sprinters literally are running on their toes with minimal to no heel touch whatsoever.
Also, I know you have mentioned it a few times, but the Science of Sport blog is really, really good. They do all kinds of cool analysis of things from running form, to split analysis, to systematic watt comparisons to see if the Tour is still doping, to biomechanics, to...you get the point. Definitely check it out if your into the science side of this as it's an extremely interesting read if you are
Great discussion guys. Currently what i do is train HIIT on the treadmill with forefoot striking and heel never touching. And for road running i fore/midfoot (i'm not sure which i do) strike with the heel making contact with the ground immediately after. So i suppose without slowmo it would appear i'm running flat footed? Anyway from your discussion i think what i'm doing is ok.
Just ran a 5k race in 20:30~ it was a tough pace, but i didn't go balls to the wall on pace, it sounded like the people around me were more out of breath then i was, i didn't really think it was a good idea to go all out, because i still have to train pretty intensely all week :D , this was a timed and measured park run, organised by http://www.parkrun.com/home, it was a pretty well run event and everyone seemed pretty friendly and it was fun, even if it did mean waking up on 5 hours sleep :D im going to catch up on some sleep and might go for another slow run later.
Back in business aswell after 6 weeks without running!
Started my first week with 18 miles including a 5k where I was asked to be the 20min rabbit :D Easy stride and nice treshhold work to gain some fitness back. 2nd week was 32 miles easy and strides only. Now im in my 3rd week, started some very easy hill reps and a 10mi long run and I'll end up at about 43-45 miles.
Also joined a new training group with 2:00 800 and 16 5k guys.
About the heart rate/pace thing. I (sub 18 5k) do nearly all my runs at 8min mile pace. Very easy runs are 8:30 and my coach (worked with kenyan World Champs in the past) still says I run too fast. He endorses easy miling on hilly routes (60 miles/week is enough, 1:30h long run) and during base period all the speedwork comes through racing and 3-4 strides during your easy runs. So 1-2 (xc) races every week are not unusal, sometimes even 2 races in 2 days but thats it.
After ~8-9 weeks some treshhold work and 6x200 with long rest for leg speed is added.
Serious stuff starts in March/April.
You can speed up your easy runs once you reached your limit in terms of mileage. Before that point additional miles >> increased pace.
On September 22 2012 17:50 matthewfoulkes wrote: Just ran a 5k race in 20:30~ it was a tough pace, but i didn't go balls to the wall on pace, it sounded like the people around me were more out of breath then i was, i didn't really think it was a good idea to go all out, because i still have to train pretty intensely all week :D , this was a timed and measured park run, organised by http://www.parkrun.com/home, it was a pretty well run event and everyone seemed pretty friendly and it was fun, even if it did mean waking up on 5 hours sleep :D im going to catch up on some sleep and might go for another slow run later.
Nice race! Sounds like with a little more experience and training you'll easily dip under that 20 minute mark.
i have like 22 days, im slightly nervous, i need to put in 2 long runs, i'm going to run 90 miles over the next 2 weeks and then put in like real recovery runs and then take like 2 days of swimming long distance, then i'll take a day or 2 off, packing carbs in before my race.
On September 24 2012 09:26 matthewfoulkes wrote: i have like 22 days, im slightly nervous, i need to put in 2 long runs, i'm going to run 90 miles over the next 2 weeks and then put in like real recovery runs and then take like 2 days of swimming long distance, then i'll take a day or 2 off, packing carbs in before my race.
I'm not sure I would do your longest run a week out. Try to give yourself about 10 days, with 2 weeks being a bit more common. One more workout of some sort 4-7 days is okay, but make sure it is controlled and is typically truncated some in length. Enough to feel some speed, but not long enough or hard enough to really wear you down.
I'd cut your mileage by about 25-40% before the marathon, especially because your so new. You probably have more to gain continuing to run than by the slight benefits a taper will give you, and a 30% reduction in volume is still no joke.
I wouldn't stop running for 4 days leading up to the marathon either. If you want to do anything, take the day two days before the marathon off, then the day before do a light run of like 3 miles with some strides at the end. You'll lose some efficiency if you just stop running cold turkey 4 days before the race.
Carb loading for a marathon is fine, but don't go crazy. Eating a good amount of food a few days out, and then maybe a generous carb-heavy meal (don't suff yourself though) the afternoon or evening before the race is plenty. Eat too much and you risk running GI problems (which, while miserable in and of itself, can easily cost you 10+ minutes) and you'll just feel big and bloated race day.
Mon: AM - 4.25 easy (7:25) / PM - 7.75 slow w/UCCS running club Tues: PM - 4xmile + 1x900m all w/2:45 recovery + 5.5 WU/CD Wed: AM - 3.5 slow (8:30) / 6.5 easy (7:20) Thurs: AM - 4 easy (7:35) / PM - 6 easy (7:15) Fri: AM - 6x800m w/2:00 recovery jog + 3.5M wu/cd / PM - 2.5 slow (8:10) Sat: AM - 5.5 easy (7:50) Sun: PM - 13 easy/moderate (7:20)
Total: 72
Mile Repeats Felt good. Wasn't working too hard at any point and was really cruisin, around 5:50-6:00 pace for all 4. Initially was doing 3:00 recovery but started shortening it since it wasn't feeling too challenging. Felt good enough that I added one last mini repeat.
800s Another darn good workout. Nice controlled effort, going 2:53, 2:52, 2:50, 2:48, 2:47, 2:38. Repeats one and two were downright easy. 3,4, and to a lesser extent, 5, were all not too challenging. I was breathing heavily obviously but wasn't really working super hard/having intense pain. Last one was feeling good so I just kept gradually getting faster as I worked my way around.
I think my plan with this is to do all of them at 2:45 or faster next time, and then progress the repeat length from there.
Sunday Long - Not really a workout, but a good strong long run. Run on a relatively slow/hilly trail and just cruised. First two miles easy, then 7 or 8 relaxed, then a gradual build-up to the last three at a comfortable, but strong aerobic effort (MP). Last three were at 6:28 pace, which I'm pleased with.
All in all a good week that definitely leaves me feeling confident about my fitness.
Does anyone here use Strava to record runs? I recently started using it. Some runs seem to be recorded just fine, but others have a bit of a wacky trail.. Take this one for example ; http://app.strava.com/runs/22779982 .
In reality the course I ran was a little over 5k, and I'm pretty sure I run in fairly decent straight lines, but strava is convinced I ran 6.5 km. Things like this make it quite hard to track personal progress.
I usually you RunKeeper or MapmyRun, both of which are available on Android and iPhone. Sometimes it can be the fault of the specific application when runs are not tracked properly and others time it is just the gps/data connection of the phone to blame.
L_Master : those races you posted were really entertaining. Feel free to post any more good ones you stumble across.
My week:
Next race: 5k Dec 31st Goal race: HM early next year that I've yet to sign up for
Mon: AM 11k (5:10/k) [ran too hard]/ PM 11k (5:27/k) [recovery] Tues: AM 6.5k (5:16/k) [supposed to be recovery, ran too hard and effed that up] Wed: off - did a field trip for work and got tons of bonus cash so can't complain. Also really needed a day off. Thurs: AM 11k (5:03/k) [moderate]/ PM 11k (4:48/k) [moderate/hard. was feeling great so I pushed myself last couple k's] Fri: 11k AM (5:08/k) [ran a little too hard]/ 16k PM (5:14) [struggled past 10k as I started off too fast and my morning run probably got to me] Sat: rest/hangover Sun: 7k recovery (5:44/k) - my first true recovery run! Yay! I woke up today and felt recovered! Who'd of thunk? Ran to work this morning no problem.
Total: 84.5k (new personal best!)
Summary: Started the week off terribly. I did a Sunday long run (22k) which isn't listed and then went out way too hard the next day (Mon). I couldn't get recovered and felt burnt out and kinda sick after my Tuesday run. I'm glad I got called out of town for work as I really needed a day off for true recovery. Rest of the week went a little better. Friday I went 16k into drinking with friends which resulted in my Saturday hangover. But apart from that I'm quite happy that I got my k's up. Also had a big smile on my face during my Sunday recovery run which was probably a first for me. 5:45/k is definetly closer to a recovery pace for me. I was a little delusional thinking I could recover at 5:00/k. I'd like to get it up to 100k eventually but I'm having a hard time figuring out how to do that with winter coming up. Gets to -32 def C/F here regularly. I walked to work once when it was that cold and my tears froze my eyelashes together.
I'm gonna plod along for a week or two more before I add some workouts. I usually sprint for the last 400-1000m of my runs. Feel I'm still just getting to the point where I'm running decent mileage (relative of course) with no pain or injury and want to let me body adjust.
Some side notes: I check my blood pressure/HR at the pharmacy on Sat and I'm down to a resting HR of 54! It's insane who quick cardio kicks in as I was in the 70's 3 months ago.
My girlfriend's sister's boyfriend just beat my HM time by 5mins. Granted he's done track and field all throughout high-school (currently in first year uni) but still... that fucker! Just got my goal figured out for next year though. HM time <1:35
Edit: Most of my runs are 11k because that's how far away my work is. In case anyone was wondering why the weird distance. I can't think of an easier way to get 22k in a day. My commute time rivals that of most of my coworkers simply due to traffic.
On September 25 2012 00:15 caznitch wrote: L_Master : those races you posted were really entertaining. Feel free to post any more good ones you stumble across.
My week:
Next race: 5k Dec 31st Goal race: HM early next year that I've yet to sign up for
Mon: AM 11k (5:10/k) [ran too hard]/ PM 11k (5:27/k) [recovery] Tues: AM 6.5k (5:16/k) [supposed to be recovery, ran too hard and effed that up] Wed: off - did a field trip for work and got tons of bonus cash so can't complain. Also really needed a day off. Thurs: AM 11k (5:03/k) [moderate]/ PM 11k (4:48/k) [moderate/hard. was feeling great so I pushed myself last couple k's] Fri: 11k AM (5:08/k) [ran a little too hard]/ 16k PM (5:14) [struggled past 10k as I started off too fast and my morning run probably got to me] Sat: rest/hangover Sun: 7k recovery (5:44/k) - my first true recovery run! Yay! I woke up today and felt recovered! Who'd of thunk? Ran to work this morning no problem.
Total: 84.5k (new personal best!)
Summary: Started the week off terribly. I did a Sunday long run (22k) which isn't listed and then went out way too hard the next day (Mon). I couldn't get recovered and felt burnt out and kinda sick after my Tuesday run. I'm glad I got called out of town for work as I really needed a day off for true recovery. Rest of the week went a little better. Friday I went 16k into drinking with friends which resulted in my Saturday hangover. But apart from that I'm quite happy that I got my k's up. Also had a big smile on my face during my Sunday recovery run which was probably a first for me. 5:45/k is definetly closer to a recovery pace for me. I was a little delusional thinking I could recover at 5:00/k. I'd like to get it up to 100k eventually but I'm having a hard time figuring out how to do that with winter coming up. Gets to -32 def C/F here regularly. I walked to work once when it was that cold and my tears froze my eyelashes together.
I'm gonna plod along for a week or two more before I add some workouts. I usually sprint for the last 400-1000m of my runs. Feel I'm still just getting to the point where I'm running decent mileage (relative of course) with no pain or injury and want to let me body adjust.
Some side notes: I check my blood pressure/HR at the pharmacy on Sat and I'm down to a resting HR of 54! It's insane who quick cardio kicks in as I was in the 70's 3 months ago.
My girlfriend's sister's boyfriend just beat my HM time by 5mins. Granted he's done track and field all throughout high-school (currently in first year uni) but still... that fucker! Just got my goal figured out for next year though. HM time <1:35
Edit: Most of my runs are 11k because that's how far away my work is. In case anyone was wondering why the weird distance. I can't think of an easier way to get 22k in a day. My commute time rivals that of most of my coworkers simply due to traffic.
Sweet! Someone else joining in the fun. I really think this thread will be even more awesome if we have people routinely posting their weeks every sun/mon or what have you. Good for discussion, good for feedback, etc.
Your mileage is more than "decent". Your definitely at a place where you can really train and do good workouts, even for longer races like a half marathon.
I'm not sure where you are with PR's but 5:00/km is pretty darn fast for true recovery runs. I'm probably in 18 flat shape or better and I wouldn't say 5:00/km would be recovery for me. It's easy for sure, but not really what I would call a recovery clip.
Not sure I like this "sprint" the last 400-1000m of runs. One because your not sprinting, which is basically anything faster than 400m race pace; but manly because it makes it seem like your hammering the ends of runs. There is no need for that. If your out on a run and feeling great and itching to go then by all means start gradually picking up the pace till your running a strong/challening, but comfortable pace. You can start doing this 3 or even 4+ miles out from the end of the run. If by the end of that you still feel super good then feel free to go ahead and let it rip the last minute or two (without going so hard you start tying up).
Just randomly hammering the last 400-1000m doesn't really have much benefit. It's not long enough for any physiologic stimulus and probably doesn't do much to help with the mental or neuro-muscular side either.
Overall though looks good. What's the goal/gameplan for your December 5k?
EDIT: A brief sidenote: you shouldn't need much in the way of recovery runs if your just doing base training (maybe you just need it this week because of the LR on Sunday) and if you are it's a strong signal your running much to hard overall on the majority of your runs.
On September 24 2012 23:28 Occultus wrote: Use a handwritten training log!
Seriously, write it down week by week. You dont want this sites to go offline and multiple years of your running logs are gone with it.
While I don't use a handwritten log because I find it tedious/handwriting sucks and I can't geek out over stats and sort things easily I do back up my log periodically on excel (many sites allow you to export your log) so that if there was some crazy server crash I wouldn't lose my running history.
EPT
