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On September 17 2012 15:37 AirbladeOrange wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 07:33 ghost_403 wrote:
So I ran a half marathon this weekend ^^
Ran a 2:00, which I think is pretty good considering the pacer I was following got us lost and added somewhere between 1.2 and 1.5 miles to our route. I was aiming for an eight minute mile through the whole think with a bit extra for whathaveyou, and I got ridiculously close. I'm pretty happy with my results.
At the end of the thing, my legs were shot, but I was barely winded. For training, I've been running 25-30mpw at that same pace. For next time, I want to do a 7.5 minute pace,and preferably not have legs that are toast by the end of it. What's the best way to do that? More miles at a 7.5 minute pace? Same miles faster? Add some sort of chasing dinosaur to my workout routine? Just gradually build up your mileage. Increase about 10% every 2 weeks or so as long as it feels okay. Add in one long run per week of about 25% of your total weekly mileage. Run at a fairly easy pace for all your runs and just focus on comfortably building up your mileage. Do this for a while and you will get faster. Then if you want to you can start adding in some workouts. And if you're going to use a dinosaur use a triceratops.
You should add a type of raptor therapod rather than a triceratops because one would probably get fatigued very quickly.
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Sup running thread,
In two months I'm running my first competitive race in over 3 years (yeah I've been super lazy lol, it's just a local 5k on thanksgiving) and I shouldn't have a problem completing the race or anything but I really want to set a goal of doing it in under 21 minutes. right now if I really push myself I can run a mile in about 7-7:30 but I can't really keep that pace for multiple miles without really pushing myself mentally/physically. A normal 3 mile run right now is taking me about 24-25 minutes. Are there any things I should be doing, (sprints? run longer distances at a slower pace?) to help improve my pace or workout routine over the next couple months so I hit this goal? Is this a realistic goal to shoot for in 2 months if I'm only running 7:30 with alot of effort right now? a 21 would take a sub 7 minute pace the entire way.
Currently my workout schedule is I'm running every other day for 2-3 miles at a pretty light pace (8-8:30/mile) and doing basic leg/calf workouts + 100 squats every day. nothing much more than that. I'm not dieting or focusing on eating anything but could that help as well? I'm not really trying to body build or anything but my lower body could definitely still use some work.
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On September 19 2012 14:03 LuckyFool wrote:
Sup running thread,
In two months I'm running my first competitive race in over 3 years (yeah I've been super lazy lol, it's just a local 5k on thanksgiving) and I shouldn't have a problem completing the race or anything but I really want to set a goal of doing it in under 21 minutes. right now if I really push myself I can run a mile in about 7-7:30 but I can't really keep that pace for multiple miles without really pushing myself mentally/physically. A normal 3 mile run right now is taking me about 24-25 minutes. Are there any things I should be doing, (sprints? run longer distances at a slower pace?) to help improve my pace or workout routine over the next couple months so I hit this goal? Is this a realistic goal to shoot for in 2 months if I'm only running 7:30 with alot of effort right now? a 21 would take a sub 7 minute pace the entire way.
Currently my workout schedule is I'm running every other day for 2-3 miles at a pretty light pace (8-8:30/mile) and doing basic leg/calf workouts + 100 squats every day. nothing much more than that. I'm not dieting or focusing on eating anything but could that help as well? I'm not really trying to body build or anything but my lower body could definitely still use some work.
Sup dude. Congrats on signing up for the race and setting goals.
Here's what I think you should do. Run more. Start at 15 miles a week and work your way up from there. Increase your total mileage a little bit every 2 weeks if you're feeling comfortable. Increase your mileage by like 10% or so but no more than 5 miles at a time. Keep running at a relatively easy pace but just progressively do more of it and listen to your body. This is simple step #1 to breaking 21 minutes in the 5k, which by the way I think you can do. In a few weeks you can add in a long run of about 25% of your week's mileage once a week and then some workouts later on.
In terms of other things besides running just eat clean with plenty of lean protein and green, leafy veggies, and variety. Eat less calories if you're trying to lose weight or until you're full if you're not concerned with weight. And always eat shortly after you run and consume protein. The sooner the better.
For your strength exercises just keep in mind once your body adapts to exactly what you're doing you're not going to get much out of it anymore. That means you gotta add weight to your squats, vary up the amount of reps/sets you do, or just do different exercises.
Keep us updated with progress and questions. Happy running!
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On September 19 2012 14:03 LuckyFool wrote:
Sup running thread,
In two months I'm running my first competitive race in over 3 years (yeah I've been super lazy lol, it's just a local 5k on thanksgiving) and I shouldn't have a problem completing the race or anything but I really want to set a goal of doing it in under 21 minutes. right now if I really push myself I can run a mile in about 7-7:30 but I can't really keep that pace for multiple miles without really pushing myself mentally/physically. A normal 3 mile run right now is taking me about 24-25 minutes. Are there any things I should be doing, (sprints? run longer distances at a slower pace?) to help improve my pace or workout routine over the next couple months so I hit this goal? Is this a realistic goal to shoot for in 2 months if I'm only running 7:30 with alot of effort right now? a 21 would take a sub 7 minute pace the entire way.
Currently my workout schedule is I'm running every other day for 2-3 miles at a pretty light pace (8-8:30/mile) and doing basic leg/calf workouts + 100 squats every day. nothing much more than that. I'm not dieting or focusing on eating anything but could that help as well? I'm not really trying to body build or anything but my lower body could definitely still use some work.
LuckyFool!
If a normal 3 mile run is 24-25 minutes and running 7-7:30 pace for a while takes tons of mental toughness your running WAY too hard on those runs. I would expect a person running regular runs in 8-830 to be running close to 20:00 5k. Also a 21 minute would take a 6:45 pace, as a 5k is 3.1 miles.
No, about those 7:30's...how do they feel when you are running them. Does it start to hurt bad with the legs getting heavy and lungs burning, or is it just a "strong effort" that while not painful you'd still rather slow down?
As far as the training goes, it sounds like you have something of a background, so I would say something like next 2 weeks just easy runs, maybe a little extra volume than you have been doing. Start throwing in some strides at the end, which as basically 20-30s pickups at a pretty quick pace (I'd say 5:30-6:00 pace for you roughly) just to get used to moving fast. These are NOT hard. Walk between them until you want to do another.
Then after those two weeks do 2 weeks where you do a tempo run (see pg 54) and a fartlek session. Then the next two weeks do a tempo run and a solid session of intervals (first time maybe 4-6x800m @ 5k goal pace w/2:00 recovery jog, then next session 5x1k at 5k goal pace w/2:00 recovery jog).
Two weeks out do the tempo and an interval session of something like 8x300-400m at around 5k pace -30 seconds w/1 min recovery. Week of the race do a workout early in the week (if sat. race then tuesday/wednesday are good) of like 8x200m fast w/full recovery (2-3+ min walking). Easy the rest of the week and race Sunday.\
If you keep us updated on progress and how your feeling, we can give you better feedback about paces to shoot for in workouts, if your running them right, and changes we might want to make.
MTA: Hows the golf game?
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ghost - Nice work dude! Pretty sad that the pacer fucked up though...you'd think the RD would make sure those pacing actually know the correct route.
As far as training: Definitely more mileage, gradually working up to 40-50mpw will help tremendously in and of itself. Not only does it give you a significantly greater aerobic base, it also gives you a greatly ability to do more workouts. For instance, trying to do 3x3 mile at half marathon pace w/3:00 recovery is pretty difficult when it's also the longest run of the week.
Biggest things for half marathons in order of increasing importance in my opinion are: faster work at 8k-10k race pace, long runs (don't overemphasize them, but solid long runs help), some of them at a strong pace for a large portion or finishing very fast (HMP or faster; and tempos/intervals around HMP.
minimat - Kill it man!
Caznitch - Actually I was fairly okay with the time (though at first I was a little started when I saw 19:xx, but then the course turned out to be long) especially since I was not quite at full throttle first mile, and backed off on the third.
Sein - WOW! Murdered it. 3:30 faster than your goal is freakin sick stuff man! I feel your pain starting too far back, I did that this year at Bolder Boulder (60k runners) by virtue of bad bathroom timing and spent the first half of the race trying to weave between thousands of people running 8-10 minute paces.
I wouldn't be surprised to see you go under 42, or even 40, on your next training cycle.
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On September 19 2012 15:36 L_Master wrote:
minimat - Kill it man!
Thanks! Already surprised myself in W1D1, did 3.2km in the 30 minutes which I didn't think I could. D2 tomorrow 
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On September 19 2012 14:03 LuckyFool wrote:
Sup running thread,
In two months I'm running my first competitive race in over 3 years (yeah I've been super lazy lol, it's just a local 5k on thanksgiving) and I shouldn't have a problem completing the race or anything but I really want to set a goal of doing it in under 21 minutes. right now if I really push myself I can run a mile in about 7-7:30 but I can't really keep that pace for multiple miles without really pushing myself mentally/physically. A normal 3 mile run right now is taking me about 24-25 minutes. Are there any things I should be doing, (sprints? run longer distances at a slower pace?) to help improve my pace or workout routine over the next couple months so I hit this goal? Is this a realistic goal to shoot for in 2 months if I'm only running 7:30 with alot of effort right now? a 21 would take a sub 7 minute pace the entire way.
Currently my workout schedule is I'm running every other day for 2-3 miles at a pretty light pace (8-8:30/mile) and doing basic leg/calf workouts + 100 squats every day. nothing much more than that. I'm not dieting or focusing on eating anything but could that help as well? I'm not really trying to body build or anything but my lower body could definitely still use some work.
Developing aerobic fitness is maybe as slow as developing muscle (can't really compare the two but for both patience is needed). People that run really fast do so because they have been running all their life. And 21 is a fast time.
I just went through the running times of the local football squad (soccer) over here and some of the first team members ran 22:30, some faster. Those guys have been training 2 times a week and playing a game since early childhood. They don't all run 21. I am sure they could with some proper training since this is just a casual race for them. But after 3 years of being lazy you can't beat guys that worked on their fitness 3 times a week.
Also, you can use McMillan calculator:
http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/calculator
7:30 for a mile is 26 minutes for a 5K.
According to the calculator your long and easy runs should be way slower.
The way to build aerobic fitness is to have patience and base build with large volume at low intensity. If you run as fast as you are running now for shorter distances, you may end up training you anaerobic systems too much. Which means your aerobic system improves less. If you only care about the 5k race that's coming up soon, maybe that's the way to go. But for long term you want to be able to run far at a slower pace without using much effort. Lydiard was a famous running coach. He had everyone run 100 miles a week. Including his sprinters. Some of them ended up winning gold at the Olympics.
Go read up base building/Lydiard/Maffetone/Mark Allen.
Important for this low intensity high volume training is that it prevents overtraining. It is probably less effective short term but the only way to go long term. Almost all pro endurance people use some form of this training or have relied on it. Now that the cycling season is over, many pro cyclists are going to start their high volume low intensity training. Of course they are going to have to do speed work later. And then the races start again. For a fast 5k, speed work is just as important. But people generally already do that.
As for diet, if you are overweight, lower body fat % will make you faster.
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But after 3 years of being lazy you can't beat guys that worked on their fitness 3 times a week.
Actually this is really, really not true. I've been training for coming up on a year and a half now and am just getting to the point where I can probably break 5 in the mile. I know people that stepped on the track for the first time with no prior history and ran sub 5.
Not to mention I personally did this. I had been lazy for the first 20+ years of my life, and as an overweight (5'8 170) guy I went out and almost broke 20 in my second month of running.
Talent means alot in this ballgame. Some people can train their whole lives and never sniff an 18 or 19 minute 5k time, and others can come out for XC, run a few times a week with the team, and drop a 16:xx and 4:30 in just a few months.
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I ran a ton from ages 15-21 and actually broke a 6 minute mile at one point. but the past 2 years I've been really lazy so I definitely have some work to do to get back into the shape I used to be. I've been working out regularly since early August now. Thanks for the advice guys I'll try to follow and will check back in here every couple weeks and post updates. I don't think I'll have much trouble meeting the 21 minute goal but I want to set something realistic, if I get a couple solid 5/10k's under my belt I might think about trying a half marathon sometime in the first half of next year.
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Yea, if you get back into roughly 6 minute shape for the mile you'll be in pretty good position to break 21. Given your past running history I think 21 is a pretty reasonable goal.
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running a local 5k park run on tomorrow, its partially to help me get used to racing, and i'm just going to use it as a training run, i'm taking today off to let my legs be ready to run tomorrow, i think i'll just run down to my classes instead. i think i can run a mile in under 5:30.
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On September 20 2012 00:49 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +But after 3 years of being lazy you can't beat guys that worked on their fitness 3 times a week. Actually this is really, really not true. I've been training for coming up on a year and a half now and am just getting to the point where I can probably break 5 in the mile. I know people that stepped on the track for the first time with no prior history and ran sub 5. Not to mention I personally did this. I had been lazy for the first 20+ years of my life, and as an overweight (5'8 170) guy I went out and almost broke 20 in my second month of running. Talent means alot in this ballgame. Some people can train their whole lives and never sniff an 18 or 19 minute 5k time, and others can come out for XC, run a few times a week with the team, and drop a 16:xx and 4:30 in just a few months.
yeah this is so true, i have friend who when we were in school ran the school 10km race once a year (never did any other workout) and he ran it under 50min every time.
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Doesn't matter. Some people naturally lift heavier weights without practice as well.
If you want to grow more capillary veins, if you want improved mitochondria function,, strenghten your heart muscle so you get higher stroke volume, it takes time.
Also, people that work on their fitness all their lives 3 times a week generally have above average genetics anyway. So how are you gonna beat them?
Best is to start laying a foundation and sticking with it. People who ran from 12 to 21 may get bored and quit and you can catch up and beat them when they get back into running at age 35.
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On September 21 2012 22:11 Hanakurena wrote:
Doesn't matter. Some people naturally lift heavier weights without practice as well.
If you want to grow more capillary veins, if you want improved mitochondria function,, strenghten your heart muscle so you get higher stroke volume, it takes time.
Also, people that work on their fitness all their lives 3 times a week generally have above average genetics anyway. So how are you gonna beat them?
Best is to start laying a foundation and sticking with it. People who ran from 12 to 21 may get bored and quit and you can catch up and beat them when they get back into running at age 35.
+1000.
This is exactly the attitude to have. Maybe we can't all run 13:xx 5k but if you get out there and train everyday I can guarantee that you'll end up legions faster than you ever dreamed possible.
Not to mention you don't know how good you can be until you get out and go for it. Just because your first mile was run in 10:00 doesn't mean you won't run 12:xx either, people have talents in various areas: some run fast right from the start, some are durable and never get injured running 140 mpw day in and day out, others respond to training and improve massively and quickly, still others continue to improve over many years but in slower rates, the list goes but you get the point.
Great post Hanakurena.
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On September 21 2012 22:21 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 22:11 Hanakurena wrote:
Doesn't matter. Some people naturally lift heavier weights without practice as well.
If you want to grow more capillary veins, if you want improved mitochondria function,, strenghten your heart muscle so you get higher stroke volume, it takes time.
Also, people that work on their fitness all their lives 3 times a week generally have above average genetics anyway. So how are you gonna beat them?
Best is to start laying a foundation and sticking with it. People who ran from 12 to 21 may get bored and quit and you can catch up and beat them when they get back into running at age 35. +1000. This is exactly the attitude to have. Maybe we can't all run 13:xx 5k but if you get out there and train everyday I can guarantee that you'll end up legions faster than you ever dreamed possible. Not to mention you don't know how good you can be until you get out and go for it. Just because your first mile was run in 10:00 doesn't mean you won't run 12:xx either, people have talents in various areas: some run fast right from the start, some are durable and never get injured running 140 mpw day in and day out, others respond to training and improve massively and quickly, still others continue to improve over many years but in slower rates, the list goes but you get the point. Great post Hanakurena.
Yeah, most people who don't come into the sport with high expectations will meet and surpass them if they are dedicated. When I first started running I never thought I would be able to break 6:00 for a one mile run.
I have seen it time and again with people I have run with over the years. Sometimes it takes them a few years of hard and intelligent training but I have seen so many people stick with virtually the same training plan and make drastic jumps in short periods of time from seemingly nowhere. Hell, it happened to me twice.
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Sorry if this has been answered before but i read the last 15 posts in this thread with "heel" in them and it didn't come up.
When running and landing forefoot first should your heels ever touch the ground? I've been avoiding letting my heels touch the ground ever when running and oh boy do you calves get a fkn sweet workout. Though as i get more tired i still try to land forefoot first with heels making contact witht he ground immediately after until eventually reverting completely to heel striking when im at my limit.
TLDR: Should my heels make contact with the ground when running/jogging?
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On September 22 2012 00:44 ShadeR wrote:
Sorry if this has been answered before but i read the last 15 posts in this thread with "heel" in them and it didn't come up.
When running and landing forefoot first should your heels ever touch the ground? I've been avoiding letting my heels touch the ground ever when running and oh boy do you calves get a fkn sweet workout. Though as i get more tired i still try to land forefoot first with heels making contact witht he ground immediately after until eventually reverting completely to heel striking when im at my limit.
TLDR: Should my heels make contact with the ground when running/jogging?
It's fine for your heel to touch the ground when you run but it shouldn't be taking the full weight of your body. I can't see it being possible to run anything over 10k with your heel not making any contact with the ground. Your calves should strengthen the more you run. I have some "minimal" type footwear that forces you to engage your calves more that I use a couple times a week. Your knees will let you know if you're putting too much impact on your heel. I may be wrong so wait until some of the more experienced runners to answer. I'm off to youtube WR marathon runs to check out their heels!
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So I'm still a little worried about this whole HR thing. Does anyone else use a monitor and track this?
I've been running pretty easy runs this week (I'll post my weekly on Sun or Mon) and my HR is always 160-170 ish range. I did what I thought was an 11k recovery run (not that I was checking at the time, but my pace ended up being 30-40 s slower than my normal runs) and my HR stabilized at 163. My 22k long run: 164ish. A tempoish run: 167ish.
Is there a tried and true way to test my max HR? Thinking of sprinting up some hills this coming Tuesday and seeing what I can hit.
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L_Master, my main point was for beginners not to compare themselves to others (who are usually faster). Every beginner has a huge potential for improvement. And one can improve for a very long time until one gets to an age where one should be happy to maintain the fitness they have.
Technique is a difficult thing. Best way to go is have it videotaped and have someone that is a running coach and knows how to impove running form look at it.
If you just try to run unnaturally all the sudden that may hurt you. There's so many little things you can change. Running form is really important for performance when you hit some level. But besides doing the obvious, most of the time you are better off running the way you naturally run.
Landing on the heel too much does break you. But many elite runners are actually heel strikers. According to one study, 75% of the elite runners are heel strikers.
If you are a heel strikers and you try to strike with your forefoot, you are putting yourself at risk of injury.
http://www.sportsscientists.com has many articles on running technique.
As for heart rate, if you run in the 160-170 range normally, then running your long run at 164 and your easy run at 163 are too high. They are in your normal range. Heart rate is the best way to judge the intensity of a training until we get gadgets that can measure lactate and glucose levels in the blood while we are running and inform us real-time.
Look at the McMillan calculator
http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/calculator
Race pace is race pace. And apparently that is 160-170 for you. Your pace in min/km don't matter. If you want to run easy you want to run easy. What HR zone exactly 'easy' is is hard to say. You can go for maximum and take the 65%-75% for long and lower for easy. Or you can use the maximum aerobic HR, where the anaerobic system is not engaged much at all, so still in the fat burning zone. Or you can look at your hear rate reserve. You have your rest HR and your max HR and you can choose to exercize somewhere inbetween. Say your rest is 60 and your max is 190. Then the intensity of your activity is somewhere inbetween that. So maybe just walking is 90 for you and running at your usual pace is 165. So then when you are supposedly doing a recovery run and you are so close to 170 and so far away from 90, you can say you are running too fast, whatever your actual pace is.
You can still exercize in those zones. But you run in the same one for all your runs while you are trying to follow a training program that supposedly has you do something entirely different.
Max HR is not easy to reach. You need to warm up, run and increase pace and give time for your HR to drift up, then maybe give it all you have on a steeper section until you are exhausted. I don't like to do it myself but it should be perfectly safe.
That said, your percentage of max zones will all be off if you have your max incorrectly.
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On September 22 2012 01:11 caznitch wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2012 00:44 ShadeR wrote:
Sorry if this has been answered before but i read the last 15 posts in this thread with "heel" in them and it didn't come up.
When running and landing forefoot first should your heels ever touch the ground? I've been avoiding letting my heels touch the ground ever when running and oh boy do you calves get a fkn sweet workout. Though as i get more tired i still try to land forefoot first with heels making contact witht he ground immediately after until eventually reverting completely to heel striking when im at my limit.
TLDR: Should my heels make contact with the ground when running/jogging? It's fine for your heel to touch the ground when you run but it shouldn't be taking the full weight of your body. I can't see it being possible to run anything over 10k with your heel not making any contact with the ground. Your calves should strengthen the more you run. I have some "minimal" type footwear that forces you to engage your calves more that I use a couple times a week. Your knees will let you know if you're putting too much impact on your heel. I may be wrong so wait until some of the more experienced runners to answer. I'm off to youtube WR marathon runs to check out their heels!
I have to disagree and say that letting your heel touch the ground is bad. Running (forefoot/midfoot striking) is much different than walking (heel-to-toe) in that running is like bouncing from foot to foot.
I used to completely be a heel striker, and holy damn did I get injured a lot. Heel striking is one of the biggest reasons people get injured from running. Maybe not immediately, but eventually. And when I switched to midfoot running I got the same feeling ShadeR is getting where my legs got tired in places I didn't even know existed. But by sticking to proper form I managed to build up to 13 mile runs, without injury, and without any leg fatigue.
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EPT
