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On July 20 2015 23:05 Kronen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2015 22:49 Alucen-Will- wrote:
How is the Ketogenic Diet viewed ITT? I know a lot of the commonly accepted dogma among nutrition scientists and the general public is still directly the calories in/calories out stuff.
I started following it last fall after months of my dad recommending it to me. Both me and my father are quite skeptical people so it took me a long time to finally believing him about it, but I decided to take the plunge. He's also quite a discerning person and has been following/doing research on these things for years and finally moved away from the cal in/cal out belief about a year ago. I've seen so much convincing information about it that I'm more confident about this than any other health related belief that I've ever looked into. Furthermore, I think the evolutionary background that forms the basis for humans difficulty in consuming large amounts of carbohydrates makes complete sense.
Regardless, I'm very sold on it after personal experience and research. I'd like to hear others have to say
I'll add that I am in BY Far the best shape of my life. I don't think I'll ever go back to anything else. The general consensus you'll find around here is to follow the IIFYM general guidelines. Keto, intermittent fasting, and other restrictive dietary dogmas can work for you but are generally perceived as nifty sideway approaches for you to get your diet under control. Their huge cult following on the internet doesn't help reputation wise, but if it works for you stick with it.
I say this in a nice way, but the Ketogenic diet is in no way, a cult following.
Also, I don't think its very useful of thinking of it as a "trick" or lowering appetite/cravings by eliminating the desire for carbs. It's a legitimate way to eat in your everyday life.
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It may not be a cult, but it has a cult following. I direct you to r/keto...
By all means, it is a perfectly valid way to eat for the rest of your life, but it is by no means the answer to all health and fitness woes. If you enjoy it, go for it! I don't mean to dissuade you or demean your pursuit. It does interest me and if I were single I'd try it out. But you asked for the general consensus around here, and the general consensus is that if it fits your macros, eat it.
EDIT: read back a couple pages for how
a keto culty was handled.
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On July 20 2015 23:20 Kronen wrote:
It may not be a cult, but it has a cult following. I direct you to r/keto...
By all means, it is a perfectly valid way to eat for the rest of your life, but it is by no means the answer to all health and fitness woes. If you enjoy it, go for it! I don't mean to dissuade you or demean your pursuit. It does interest me and if I were single I'd try it out. But you asked for the general consensus around here, and the general consensus is that if it fits your macros, eat it.
That's fair enough, and I didn't mean to be abrasive. Sorry if I was. Your reasoning is fair and I understand your Point of view.
I will say that almost any kind of diet that isn't the absolute accepted standard will likely feel somewhat culty. This is understandable, particularly because some of the beliefs the ketogenic/low carb/paleo diet entail are quite unorthodox as is juxtaposed to something like the american nutritional standards set by the FDA and american heart association (that is, eating almost no carbohydrates at all, when the food pyramid suggest that you eat the largest part of your diet in them).
So its an understandable position, a position I believed in too honestly.
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On July 20 2015 23:02 Alucen-Will- wrote:
The only other thing I do is weight training every other day, and interval training on the off days.
i've been doing Medhi's 5X5 since November 2007... it is simple and it is not easy.
good luck in your journey towards optimal health sir!
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On July 20 2015 23:26 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2015 23:02 Alucen-Will- wrote:
The only other thing I do is weight training every other day, and interval training on the off days. i've been doing Medhi's 5X5 since November 2007... it is simple and it is not easy.
That's interesting.
Another thing that both me and my father changed in terms of health science was moving away from longer cardio training as the fundamental component of exercise.
I think in modern times the most common way of exercising for most people around the world is to run/jog longer distances on a track, outside, or just on a treadmill. He convinced me that it's better to do exercise with short/intense sessions of sprinting or weight lifting at maximum weights, followed up short rests between sets/sprints. I've only moved toward this within the last month or so fully, and I have yet to read the literature he's been convinced by but so far it's been excellent.
Would be interesting to hear about other people's experiences on this matter. I will add that I excercise/weight lift for general health and not really to bulk up in a huge way. I am looking for a bit of muscle, but only in a generally "athletic" way if that makes sense.
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On July 20 2015 23:31 Alucen-Will- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2015 23:26 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On July 20 2015 23:02 Alucen-Will- wrote:
The only other thing I do is weight training every other day, and interval training on the off days. i've been doing Medhi's 5X5 since November 2007... it is simple and it is not easy. That's interesting. Another thing that both me and my father changed in terms of health science was moving away from longer cardio training as the fundamental component of exercise.
as per Dr. John Berardi's stance on "solid state cardio"... its not that important.
i'm too lazy to do all the research. i've just listened carefully to what Dr. Berardi has said on the matter and i pretty much agree with him.
animals with 2 forward facing eyes and depth perception hunt their prey in a quick chase that contains at most 2 minutes of actual running not some 90 minute marathon.
herbivores gather their food at a leisurely walking pace... and will quickly sprint away to avoid danger... in a matter of a couple of minutes.
how many animals other than humans run around for 20+ minutes straight without taking a breather?
not many.
conclusion: fuck solid state cardio.
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On July 20 2015 23:36 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2015 23:31 Alucen-Will- wrote:On July 20 2015 23:26 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On July 20 2015 23:02 Alucen-Will- wrote:
The only other thing I do is weight training every other day, and interval training on the off days. i've been doing Medhi's 5X5 since November 2007... it is simple and it is not easy. That's interesting. Another thing that both me and my father changed in terms of health science was moving away from longer cardio training as the fundamental component of exercise. as per Dr. John Berardi's stance on "solid state cardio"... its not that important. i'm too lazy to do all the research. i've just listened carefully to what Dr. Berardi has said on the matter and i pretty much agree with him. animals with 2 forward facing eyes and depth perception hunt their prey in a quick chase not some 90 minute marathon. herbivores gather their food at a leisurely walking pace... and will quickly sprint away to avoid danger... in a matter of a couple of minutes. how many animals other than humans run around for 20+ minutes straight without taking a breather? not many. conclusion: fuck solid state cardio.
I think this is what my dad has tried to explain to me. He did a bit of research on the history of how a lot of exercise trends were created, and has come to believe that the most important thing is just to grow the short term muscle strength, combined with low rest periods for a bit of endurance. Supposedly many of the muscles that you excercise in full sprint or at max effort are fundamentally different from what you exercise via just high reps or longer distance running.
It is true that anthropologically one of human's leading adaptations is its ability to run long distances to catch prey or run away from predators.
Either way, there also isn't a lot of evidence to imply that running long distances on a regular basis is really "bad" for you, outside of knee problems. It's mostly that for general health, growing the muscles is more important. Also when doing either exercise you are a least to a certain degree growing muscle. It's primarily that running long distances just doesn't have any advantage on doing short sprints biologically outside of running marathons or something of the like. It's just primarily inefficient and sub optimal.
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look at what it takes to hunt and kill an animal and improve your ability to do those things.
quickness , power, and 2 minutes of an intense battle.
look at what it takes to land a fish for example. or kill a deer with a bow and arrow.
running around on a track with other humans for 20+ minutes does not really improve your health.
of course this is a contraversial opinion, but it is now being backed by some solid research.
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I think we've left on-topic but fwiw I recently found Muscle College Radio with Layne Norton (from what I can tell in my diligence not a slouch when it comes to research) and listened to one of their podcasts on cardio recently: http://rxmuscle.com/2013-01-11-01-57-36/muscle-college/7694-muscle-college-3-12-13.html
I'll preface it with it has a bodybuilding focus and the format of the podcast can be a tad awkward since afaik they don't get guests on the show and they share the same opinions on most stuff but there was interesting stuff on cardio. I do my first car pushes tomorrow 
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On July 20 2015 23:43 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
look at what it takes to hunt and kill an animal and improve your ability to do those things.
quickness , power, and 2 minutes of an intense battle.
look at what it takes to land a fish for example. or kill a deer with a bow and arrow.
running around on a track with other humans for 20+ minutes does not really improve your health.
of course this is a controversial opinion, but it is now being backed by some solid research.
From a biological point of view, there is no difference between doing say, 100 bench presses with lower weight and say, running a long period of time at a slower pace.
But does anyone really recommend that you do 100 bunch presses at a low weight to grow muscle or even for general health?
No.
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On July 20 2015 23:36 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2015 23:31 Alucen-Will- wrote:On July 20 2015 23:26 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On July 20 2015 23:02 Alucen-Will- wrote:
The only other thing I do is weight training every other day, and interval training on the off days. i've been doing Medhi's 5X5 since November 2007... it is simple and it is not easy. That's interesting. Another thing that both me and my father changed in terms of health science was moving away from longer cardio training as the fundamental component of exercise. as per Dr. John Berardi's stance on "solid state cardio"... its not that important. i'm too lazy to do all the research. i've just listened carefully to what Dr. Berardi has said on the matter and i pretty much agree with him. animals with 2 forward facing eyes and depth perception hunt their prey in a quick chase that contains at most 2 minutes of actual running not some 90 minute marathon. herbivores gather their food at a leisurely walking pace... and will quickly sprint away to avoid danger... in a matter of a couple of minutes. how many animals other than humans run around for 20+ minutes straight without taking a breather? not many. conclusion: fuck solid state cardio.
What are these kinds of posts even supposed to say? You base your health and diet on how some animals hunt or what? That has like zero relation to you.
Besides humans are built for endurance hunting and are very bad at sprinting. It comes with running on 2 legs.
On July 20 2015 23:43 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
look at what it takes to hunt and kill an animal and improve your ability to do those things.
quickness , power, and 2 minutes of an intense battle.
look at what it takes to land a fish for example. or kill a deer with a bow and arrow.
running around on a track with other humans for 20+ minutes does not really improve your health.
of course this is a contraversial opinion, but it is now being backed by some solid research.
And this post is just complete nonsense. Idk how you can jump from "you need this to kill an animal" to "this does not improve your health. Again zero relation between those 2. Even if humans hunted like you say (which is mostly wrong), improving your hunting ablities does only that, improve your hunting abilities. Running faster (or wahtever)would mean you have are better at getting food, it does not mean it improves your health in a world where getting that food is no concern of yours in the first place.
Basically, if you talk about improving health you would have to define what health even means.
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On July 21 2015 00:25 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2015 23:36 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On July 20 2015 23:31 Alucen-Will- wrote:On July 20 2015 23:26 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On July 20 2015 23:02 Alucen-Will- wrote:
The only other thing I do is weight training every other day, and interval training on the off days. i've been doing Medhi's 5X5 since November 2007... it is simple and it is not easy. That's interesting. Another thing that both me and my father changed in terms of health science was moving away from longer cardio training as the fundamental component of exercise. as per Dr. John Berardi's stance on "solid state cardio"... its not that important. i'm too lazy to do all the research. i've just listened carefully to what Dr. Berardi has said on the matter and i pretty much agree with him. animals with 2 forward facing eyes and depth perception hunt their prey in a quick chase that contains at most 2 minutes of actual running not some 90 minute marathon. herbivores gather their food at a leisurely walking pace... and will quickly sprint away to avoid danger... in a matter of a couple of minutes. how many animals other than humans run around for 20+ minutes straight without taking a breather? not many. conclusion: fuck solid state cardio. What are these kinds of posts even supposed to say? You base your health and diet on how some animals hunt or what? That has like zero relation to you. Besides humans are built for endurance hunting and are very bad at sprinting. It comes with running on 2 legs.
Yeah this is true that we are adapted that way. Still there isn't really evidence to suggest that running long distances as opposed to intervals of short sprints is really any better or worse for general health.
Humans aren't really that slow in sprint, by the way.
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On July 21 2015 00:31 Alucen-Will- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2015 00:25 Redox wrote:On July 20 2015 23:36 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On July 20 2015 23:31 Alucen-Will- wrote:On July 20 2015 23:26 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On July 20 2015 23:02 Alucen-Will- wrote:
The only other thing I do is weight training every other day, and interval training on the off days. i've been doing Medhi's 5X5 since November 2007... it is simple and it is not easy. That's interesting. Another thing that both me and my father changed in terms of health science was moving away from longer cardio training as the fundamental component of exercise. as per Dr. John Berardi's stance on "solid state cardio"... its not that important. i'm too lazy to do all the research. i've just listened carefully to what Dr. Berardi has said on the matter and i pretty much agree with him. animals with 2 forward facing eyes and depth perception hunt their prey in a quick chase that contains at most 2 minutes of actual running not some 90 minute marathon. herbivores gather their food at a leisurely walking pace... and will quickly sprint away to avoid danger... in a matter of a couple of minutes. how many animals other than humans run around for 20+ minutes straight without taking a breather? not many. conclusion: fuck solid state cardio. What are these kinds of posts even supposed to say? You base your health and diet on how some animals hunt or what? That has like zero relation to you. Besides humans are built for endurance hunting and are very bad at sprinting. It comes with running on 2 legs. Yeah this is true that we are adapted that way. Still there isn't really evidence to suggest that running long distances as opposed to intervals of short sprints is really any better or worse for general health. Humans aren't really that slow in sprint, by the way.
Of course there is not. Being able to run long distance just means you are able to long run distances. Humans were not able to run long distances to be "healthy", but to get food on the table. Which we now do by other means.
You simpy have to think about which abilities you need in your daily life. I dont think sprinting is one of them, neither is running a marathon. But you need to have the endurance to work like 10 hours a day while not getting too tired.
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On July 21 2015 00:25 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2015 23:36 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On July 20 2015 23:31 Alucen-Will- wrote:On July 20 2015 23:26 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On July 20 2015 23:02 Alucen-Will- wrote:
The only other thing I do is weight training every other day, and interval training on the off days. i've been doing Medhi's 5X5 since November 2007... it is simple and it is not easy. That's interesting. Another thing that both me and my father changed in terms of health science was moving away from longer cardio training as the fundamental component of exercise. as per Dr. John Berardi's stance on "solid state cardio"... its not that important. i'm too lazy to do all the research. i've just listened carefully to what Dr. Berardi has said on the matter and i pretty much agree with him. animals with 2 forward facing eyes and depth perception hunt their prey in a quick chase that contains at most 2 minutes of actual running not some 90 minute marathon. herbivores gather their food at a leisurely walking pace... and will quickly sprint away to avoid danger... in a matter of a couple of minutes. how many animals other than humans run around for 20+ minutes straight without taking a breather? not many. conclusion: fuck solid state cardio. What are these kinds of posts even supposed to say? You base your health and diet on how some animals hunt or what? That has like zero relation to you. Besides humans are built for endurance hunting and are very bad at sprinting. It comes with running on 2 legs. Show nested quote +On July 20 2015 23:43 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
look at what it takes to hunt and kill an animal and improve your ability to do those things.
quickness , power, and 2 minutes of an intense battle.
look at what it takes to land a fish for example. or kill a deer with a bow and arrow.
running around on a track with other humans for 20+ minutes does not really improve your health.
of course this is a contraversial opinion, but it is now being backed by some solid research. And this post is just complete nonsense. Idk how you can jump from "you need this 2 kill an animla" to "this does not improve your health. Again zero relation between those 2. Even if humans hunted like you say (which is wrong), improving your hunting ablities does only that, improve your hunting abilities. Running faster (or wahtever)would mean you have are better at getting food, it does not mean it improves your health in a world where getting that food is no concern of yours in the first place. Basically, if you talk about improving health you would have to define what health even means.
if u become a better hunter the range of meat you can eat is larger.
i'd rather eat fish that i catch myself.
id rather eat meat i hunt and kill or my father or grandfather hunts and kills.
its better than processed meat.
however, a can of tuna is better than not eating fish at all.
imo, the ideal is non-processed meat.
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
It is true that anthropologically one of human's leading adaptations is its ability to run long distances to catch prey or run away from predators.
It's not relevant to this discussion really, but there's all sorts of interesting stuff about this.
Running away from predators isn't really right though; pretty much anything that can prey on us can catch us in a sprint.
The key was running down prey by wearing it out. 4-legged creatures almost all have fairly notable restrictions in the pace/distance they can run. Things like how their body move, how they breathe etc mean animals have a few "optimal" running speeds (where other speeds are very inefficient for them), where humans can run at any speed efficiently. The way humans sweat too is pretty unique and allows us to cool off much better than most animals.
There's all kinds of things randomly tied into this, like the length of our toes.
Personally I don't do much cardio because I find it tedious.
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On July 21 2015 01:18 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +It is true that anthropologically one of human's leading adaptations is its ability to run long distances to catch prey or run away from predators. It's not relevant to this discussion really, but there's all sorts of interesting stuff about this. Running away from predators isn't really right though; pretty much anything that can prey on us can catch us in a sprint. The key was running down prey by wearing it out. 4-legged creatures almost all have fairly notable restrictions in the pace/distance they can run. Things like how their body move, how they breathe etc mean animals have a few "optimal" running speeds (where other speeds are very inefficient for them), where humans can run at any speed efficiently. The way humans sweat too is pretty unique and allows us to cool off much better than most animals. There's all kinds of things randomly tied into this, like the length of our toes. Personally I don't do much cardio because I find it tedious.
It is indeed off topic but also very interesting to me.
Humans really cant run away from anything. Because humans run on 2 legs they are firstly easily spotted and secondly slow starters when anything suddenly runs at them because of the high center of mass. That makes them also way worse at zigzagging than 4 legged animals.
So what remains for them to defend against predators is to fight. But because humans stand upright their main natural weapons (forelimbs and mouth) are removed from their 4-legged enemy while their most precious area, the genitals, is perfectly exposed to them. The only way for the early upright human to defend himself would therefore be using weapons like stones, sticks, later spears. These even profit from standing upright because they have more force behind them when used from above. And of course to even use weapons and move at the same time you need to have your arms available and walk on 2 legs in the first place. Fighting in a goup would also make these weapons way more effective.
With these thoughts in mind it seems very obvious to me that upright walk can not have develped without developing the utilisation of weapons. So technology has helped us from the very beginning.
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I think you mean "steady state" not "solid state."
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Dr Neal Barnard.
john berardi is a scam.
Best is to chase wild animals on all fours, and eat them raw if you can catch them. Helps you stay lean.
Beware of sugar molecules.
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I too find this conversation interesting! Humans are even more adapted to endurance running versus sprinting. Humans are one of the few organisms that can regulate body temperature quickly and efficiently through sweat glands. We quite literally run our prey to death by forcing them to maintain a slight but steady pace over long distances, forcing their inadequate cooling systems to redline over time. You can still see evidence of this hunting behavior in certain African aboriginal tribes today.
Some anatomists attribute our huge overly developed glute muscles to this behavior. As that muscle is good only good for two things, endurance running and pelvic thrusts, one can see the argument. That's a bit of a fringe argument though, but interesting for conjecture.
Edit: autocorrect mistakes.
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EPT
