|
This is a big thread so if this has already been discussed I apologize. Feel free to point me in that direction if it exists.
Today was my first day of the starting strength program. I had one free hour with a trainer at the YMCA, so I figured I would have him watch while I did my first workout. I had a few questions in relation to what he was teaching versus what the book says.
1. For the overhead press, he taught me to bring it down to the nose each rep instead of coming all the way back down to underneath the head for each rep. I suppose this method is easier to teach since you don't have to use your hips to push your head back and out of the way. Should I ignore him and do it the SS way? Seems like it would be a less complete movement, but it was easier to learn.
2. High bar versus low bar squats. Trainer taught high bar, and it felt really good. I haven't been able to try low bar squats yet, though I can probably handle those with a bit of practice. I mostly want to train with the end goal of getting better at sports/real life activities (basketball, soccer, ultimate frisbee). Any examples on which type of squat would be better for different activities? Do athletes prefer one kind over another compared to pure powerlifters/weightlifters?
3. Trainer seemed uber conservative with the weight on the deadlift. He had me only go up to 95, which was ridiculously easy (135 on squat for comparison, which was also easy but seemed like a reasonable starting point). Is it really a much more dangerous lift compared to the others and should I be really cautious with the weight? I couldn't find any such warnings in the SS book that seemed to suggest I needed to start out with such low weight when learning.
|
1. Ignore him and do it the SS way. It's not that big of a deal, but there's really no reason to do a half rep of it each time until you're doing extremely high volume with pretty heavy weight.
2. High bar is fine. High bar is better for quad development, athletic development overall, mobility (flexibility), core strength, and to a degree kinesthetic awareness. Low bar allows you to use more muscle mass (incorporates more hamstrings and glutes) thus allowing you to lift more weight in theory. As you get stronger, it's wise to incorporate both into your training. However, using only high bar for a beginner is fine and is probably a bit easier to teach and work with.
3. That's retarded of him. Imo he should have had you going the other way around. Even if 135 with squatting felt easy, you can still get pretty acute soreness your first workout with it. You should definitely start with 135 for deadlifting, unless you have access to bumper plates (rubber plates that are all the standard size for a 45 lb plate; they can also be dropped if you do Olympic weightlifting).
Deadlifting is not dangerous at all unless you have bad form with heavier weights. With anything less than 200 lbs, it's pretty much impossible to injure yourself unless you're severely underweight. Starting with lighter weights actually may be worse than starting with slightly heavier weights. The deadlift is a simple movement, but there's a lot of little stuff that you can mess up, such as bracing your core, lifting your chest, and making sure your back is properly arched, not rounded. In my opinion the trainer had you lifting too heavy with squats for your first workout. For future reference, always start at the bar for your warmups, and slowly add weight for the first time you workout. The book advises that you only add 10 lbs at a time until your bar speed slows or your form deteriorates. For the average person, this would happen between 65 and 85 lbs on the squat, maybe slightly heavier if you're a bigger lifter or are reasonably talented/experienced.
TL;DR - Pick whichever squat feels more comfortable to you, ignore his advice on the overhead press, and go heavier on the deadlift next time.
|
On July 08 2014 09:41 MtlGuitarist97 wrote:
1. Ignore him and do it the SS way. It's not that big of a deal, but there's really no reason to do a half rep of it each time until you're doing extremely high volume with pretty heavy weight.
2. High bar is fine. High bar is better for quad development, athletic development overall, mobility (flexibility), core strength, and to a degree kinesthetic awareness. Low bar allows you to use more muscle mass (incorporates more hamstrings and glutes) thus allowing you to lift more weight in theory. As you get stronger, it's wise to incorporate both into your training. However, using only high bar for a beginner is fine and is probably a bit easier to teach and work with.
3. That's retarded of him. Imo he should have had you going the other way around. Even if 135 with squatting felt easy, you can still get pretty acute soreness your first workout with it. You should definitely start with 135 for deadlifting, unless you have access to bumper plates (rubber plates that are all the standard size for a 45 lb plate; they can also be dropped if you do Olympic weightlifting).
Deadlifting is not dangerous at all unless you have bad form with heavier weights. With anything less than 200 lbs, it's pretty much impossible to injure yourself unless you're severely underweight. Starting with lighter weights actually may be worse than starting with slightly heavier weights. The deadlift is a simple movement, but there's a lot of little stuff that you can mess up, such as bracing your core, lifting your chest, and making sure your back is properly arched, not rounded. In my opinion the trainer had you lifting too heavy with squats for your first workout. For future reference, always start at the bar for your warmups, and slowly add weight for the first time you workout. The book advises that you only add 10 lbs at a time until your bar speed slows or your form deteriorates. For the average person, this would happen between 65 and 85 lbs on the squat, maybe slightly heavier if you're a bigger lifter or are reasonably talented/experienced.
TL;DR - Pick whichever squat feels more comfortable to you, ignore his advice on the overhead press, and go heavier on the deadlift next time.
Thanks for the feedback, I appreciate the response.
We did start with just the bar and then move up, though he went in 15-20 pound jumps rather than 10 for the squat. Based on your description I'm wondering if I mistook the weight I ended up on for the squat. I am very thin (6ft at 150 lbs) and expected to be below average for my starting day. I thought I read 45s on the plates which would put me at 135 unless my math sucks. I'm thinking they might have been 35s or 25s instead? Either way I will work my way up in 10 lb jumps next workout and see where I end up.
|
There's a good chance that it actually was 135 lbs. I thought your trainer just slapped a pair of 45s on and didn't have you squat up to it. If it didn't feel to bad, that's a good start at least. Hopefully you're not too sore tomorrow  Also, people will commonly refer to their lifts by the number of 45 lb plates they have on. 1 plate = 135 lbs, 2 = 225 lbs, 3 = 315 lbs, etc.
|
|
|
On July 08 2014 12:15 decafchicken wrote:
+1 for high bar squats.
+2 I joined the dark side
|
Zurich15328 Posts
On July 08 2014 10:06 petered wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2014 09:41 MtlGuitarist97 wrote:
1. Ignore him and do it the SS way. It's not that big of a deal, but there's really no reason to do a half rep of it each time until you're doing extremely high volume with pretty heavy weight.
2. High bar is fine. High bar is better for quad development, athletic development overall, mobility (flexibility), core strength, and to a degree kinesthetic awareness. Low bar allows you to use more muscle mass (incorporates more hamstrings and glutes) thus allowing you to lift more weight in theory. As you get stronger, it's wise to incorporate both into your training. However, using only high bar for a beginner is fine and is probably a bit easier to teach and work with.
3. That's retarded of him. Imo he should have had you going the other way around. Even if 135 with squatting felt easy, you can still get pretty acute soreness your first workout with it. You should definitely start with 135 for deadlifting, unless you have access to bumper plates (rubber plates that are all the standard size for a 45 lb plate; they can also be dropped if you do Olympic weightlifting).
Deadlifting is not dangerous at all unless you have bad form with heavier weights. With anything less than 200 lbs, it's pretty much impossible to injure yourself unless you're severely underweight. Starting with lighter weights actually may be worse than starting with slightly heavier weights. The deadlift is a simple movement, but there's a lot of little stuff that you can mess up, such as bracing your core, lifting your chest, and making sure your back is properly arched, not rounded. In my opinion the trainer had you lifting too heavy with squats for your first workout. For future reference, always start at the bar for your warmups, and slowly add weight for the first time you workout. The book advises that you only add 10 lbs at a time until your bar speed slows or your form deteriorates. For the average person, this would happen between 65 and 85 lbs on the squat, maybe slightly heavier if you're a bigger lifter or are reasonably talented/experienced.
TL;DR - Pick whichever squat feels more comfortable to you, ignore his advice on the overhead press, and go heavier on the deadlift next time. Thanks for the feedback, I appreciate the response. We did start with just the bar and then move up, though he went in 15-20 pound jumps rather than 10 for the squat. Based on your description I'm wondering if I mistook the weight I ended up on for the squat. I am very thin (6ft at 150 lbs) and expected to be below average for my starting day. I thought I read 45s on the plates which would put me at 135 unless my math sucks. I'm thinking they might have been 35s or 25s instead? Either way I will work my way up in 10 lb jumps next workout and see where I end up.
As long as you are progressively overloading from now on, the weight you start with doesn't matter all that much anyway. It'll feel heavy soon enough.
|
On July 08 2014 09:09 petered wrote:
1. For the overhead press, he taught me to bring it down to the nose each rep instead of coming all the way back down to underneath the head for each rep. I suppose this method is easier to teach since you don't have to use your hips to push your head back and out of the way.
Can you explain what you mean here?
|
On July 08 2014 20:21 mordek wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2014 09:09 petered wrote:
1. For the overhead press, he taught me to bring it down to the nose each rep instead of coming all the way back down to underneath the head for each rep. I suppose this method is easier to teach since you don't have to use your hips to push your head back and out of the way. Can you explain what you mean here?
I suppose that statement by itself doesn't make sense. I was referencing the emphasis in SS on pushing your hips forward when starting the lift before getting your whole torso underneath the bar. When I get home I can quote the relevant part from the book.
|
Hmm ok, I was imagining you thrusting your hips forward to angle your head out of the way. Tightening your glutes and abs to a solid neutral back before lifting the bar overhead sounds exactly right 
|
Update/A few more questions.
I've had a bit of a slow and bumpy start with the SS program, but I am making progress. I have a couple additional questions I wanted to run by you fine TL folk.
After the first couple of workouts I developed some really tight and painful hips/upper outside quad region. It has forced me to either go very light or skip my squats entirely due to pain and limited range of motion. It isn't DOMS either as it isn't really a muscle pain, or at least it feels very different. It has been slowly improving, especially since I started foam rolling the area. I don't think it is bad enough to post in the injury thread or go see a doctor or anything, but if it forces me to keep missing squat exercises I will look into it. Either way, I have realized the importance of improving my mobility and supporting muscles. Especially since my main goal in all of this is improving athletic performance.
My question is, what is a good mobility/stretching routine to add before/after my workouts or on off days? I am looking for something that covers all the important basics. There is a crazy amount of content out there and eshlow has posted a ton of great stuff, but it is all piecemeal and difficult to put together into a single routine. Today I tried Joe Defranco's agile 8 warmup. Let me know if there is anything better out there.
Second, I really hate benching. It is more popular and hence I have to wait for an open bench many times. It also seems the least applicable to my goals (improved athletic performance) compared to the other main lifts. Think it would be fine to replace with bodyweight training like chin ups and dips? I find those exercises far more fun anyway.
|
On July 17 2014 09:57 petered wrote:
Update/A few more questions.
I've had a bit of a slow and bumpy start with the SS program, but I am making progress. I have a couple additional questions I wanted to run by you fine TL folk.
After the first couple of workouts I developed some really tight and painful hips/upper outside quad region. It has forced me to either go very light or skip my squats entirely due to pain and limited range of motion. It isn't DOMS either as it isn't really a muscle pain, or at least it feels very different. It has been slowly improving, especially since I started foam rolling the area. I don't think it is bad enough to post in the injury thread or go see a doctor or anything, but if it forces me to keep missing squat exercises I will look into it. Either way, I have realized the importance of improving my mobility and supporting muscles. Especially since my main goal in all of this is improving athletic performance.
My question is, what is a good mobility/stretching routine to add before/after my workouts or on off days? I am looking for something that covers all the important basics. There is a crazy amount of content out there and eshlow has posted a ton of great stuff, but it is all piecemeal and difficult to put together into a single routine. Today I tried Joe Defranco's agile 8 warmup. Let me know if there is anything better out there.
Second, I really hate benching. It is more popular and hence I have to wait for an open bench many times. It also seems the least applicable to my goals (improved athletic performance) compared to the other main lifts. Think it would be fine to replace with bodyweight training like chin ups and dips? I find those exercises far more fun anyway.
The best way to remain overall healthy and not miss workouts is to loosen up during your warm up, and foam roal/massage with lacrosse ball+stretch AFTER workout where you felt tight it hurt. Do not skip workouts from muscle knots, just note them and adress them post workout.
You can do additional massage sessions is something is super tight at night.
You are not forced to do anything, military press, push press and other thousand variations are ok if you are not after maximum chest development. Don't diss the bench though, it does make you stronger and all this "functional training" stuff is mostly worthless crap. Get stronger, more conditioned and get better at your actual sport
|
Thanks Tunk.
I certainly don't want to skip exercises. I only skipped squats that one day after I barely got the bar up in my warmup. I just tried foam rolling before my exercise today and it was a huge help.
Point noted on the bench. I think I will start replacing bench with other presses, but as you note the only reason that makes sense is because I don't feel like it. It is still a useful exercise I'm sure.
|
Anyone take some cliff notes on Starting Strength? The author spends a lot of time explaining the "why's" of his recommendations, but I'd rather go ahead and learn the "how's" of his program and learn the ~300 pages of why's while I'm already en route to fitness.
If none of you have cliff notes, that's alright, I'll just make them myself, but I figured I might as well check up here before spending hours of my time taking notes.
edit: or has that formatting problem been fixed in the 3rd edition? At the moment, I'm reading a digital copy of the 2nd edition in lieu of my copy of the 3rd edition that's still working its way through the USPS.
|
|
|
Canada8157 Posts
Back to the gym today, I was thinking of splitting up the days into biceps/lats, triceps/chest/shoulders, and leg day. Thoughts?
|
|
|
|
|
This is a really broad question. How do you guys stay committed? I always clean up my act, hit the gym consistently, eat well but after a month or two I'll always start slipping and never really make progress. I record my workout sessions in a google docs but that's about it. Any suggestions to help me stay focused? I can't really get a friend to go with me because my schedule changes drastically from week to week.
Edit: Some steps I've taken diet wise, I filled my freezer up with frozen vegetables and I buy chicken or pork in bulk. I will always have access to sweets and white rice since I live at home but I'm just going to have to make myself stay strong. I think I'm going to keep drinking small amounts of soda/flavored drinks since I absolutely love those. Probably going to make my main drinks be water, barley tea, and green tea.
I'm becoming an annoying asshole to my friends by telling them when I go to the gym so I look like a punk bitch if I stop going.
|
On August 17 2014 13:44 Demoninja wrote:
This is a really broad question. How do you guys stay committed? I always clean up my act, hit the gym consistently, eat well but after a month or two I'll always start slipping and never really make progress. I record my workout sessions in a google docs but that's about it. Any suggestions to help me stay focused? I can't really get a friend to go with me because my schedule changes drastically from week to week.
Edit: Some steps I've taken diet wise, I filled my freezer up with frozen vegetables and I buy chicken or pork in bulk. I will always have access to sweets and white rice since I live at home but I'm just going to have to make myself stay strong. I think I'm going to keep drinking small amounts of soda/flavored drinks since I absolutely love those. Probably going to make my main drinks be water, barley tea, and green tea.
I'm becoming an annoying asshole to my friends by telling them when I go to the gym so I look like a punk bitch if I stop going.
Clearly state your own goals, goals that matter to you and you feel have importance. If you go to the gym 'just because' or to 'get ripped', then it's no wonder if you take two steps back every now and then because ultimately those are not goals that make you have serious commitment if you don't feel that they are that important.
However, if you have clear goals for a healthier lifestyle and getting stronger in general BECAUSE you want to do better at a sport you love or w/e, you have tons of reasons not to skip a workout. Then whenever you miss a workout you are actively working against the person that you truly wish to become.
What really helps me in life is thinking that I must stick to my promises because I'll be LYING to myself each time I miss a promise I made to myself. (Not others, just myself.) And each time I lie to myself a small part my self-esteem dies. To build a strong self-esteem and a strong mind, you must stick to whatever you promise yourself. If you can't do it, then don't promise it to yourself. By having a strong self-esteem you'll serve yourself and others better. And that's what truly matters in life.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
