EPTFitness Questions & Answers - Page 126
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LovE-
United States1963 Posts
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4thHatchery
Finland125 Posts
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decafchicken
United States20158 Posts
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Arcanefrost
Belgium1257 Posts
On March 10 2013 01:14 Swordland wrote: 1. Yes I heard that as a general rule, I should be able to lift 3 sets 12 reps and no more. However, does this mean that if I can lift something 20 or more times, it means it is not heavy enough for me and therefore won't give good growth, because it is not heavy enough? Plus, is 3x12 scientifically proven to be the best? Not 4x10, 5x8, 2x15, etc.? 2. If I do 3x12, what is the rest time between each set? FF, you mentioned 5 times, isnt this number a little too low? 1) If the program says 12 reps for example, you should pick a weight you can do 13-14 reps with, but only do 12. Repeat this for the next sets, upping or lowering the weight based on how youre feeling. You will have good and bad days so its important to listen to your body. There is no perfect combination of reps and sets. For hypertrophy you should do at least 40 reps per bodypart you're training, usually this means a compound movement like the bench press and an accessory movement like a fly. 2) The rest times dont really matter as long as you stay between 1-5 mins, listen to your body and go when youre ready. 5x5 isnt too low because it aims add both strength and hypertrophy, strengh trainings are intense because of the heavy weight, but id advise you to add an accessoy movement to get 40 reps per trained bodypart. | ||
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FFGenerations
7088 Posts
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bode927
United States164 Posts
This is my first time posting in the Health and Fitness area of TeamLiquid. About two years ago, I was decently in shape at 6'1 180 pounds and going to the gym for cardio and weights 5-7 days a week. Then I stopped. I haven't gone to the gym now or done any real physical activity in the last two years. I am now 245 pounds and have finally decided to turn it around again. Two days ago I got my gym membership back and have gone to do some moderate (because that's all I can do right now) weight training and cardio. Today (day 3) I wake up and my chest, back, arm, and leg muscles are extremely sore to the point where I can feel them aching when I'm not even doing anything. I didn't even lift any weights with my legs, they are just sore from a half hour of cardio in which I couldn't have covered more than 1.5 miles either day. My question is... should I go back to the gym and tough it out on day 3, or do my sore muscles need a day of rest from physical activity at this point? Keep in mind when responding that I have a low to moderate understanding of cardio, healthy eating, and weight training. Thanks! | ||
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mordek
United States12705 Posts
Best of luck! Read the stickies and keep up the good work  | ||
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LovE-
United States1963 Posts
Oh, and this is for a hots gaming marathon I have planned =P and its sort of for a bet | ||
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KOVU
Denmark708 Posts
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ieatkids5
United States4628 Posts
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Sneakyz
Sweden2361 Posts
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Thor.Rush
Sweden702 Posts
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LovE-
United States1963 Posts
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phyre112
United States3090 Posts
On March 12 2013 05:37 Thor.Rush wrote: What do you guys think of the chest press machine? Bench press is obviously better, but if you don't have a spotter, could you use moderate weight on the bench press and then go heavy on the chest press machine? I'm sure some will say the machine can cause injury (especially to shoulders), but I think it's fine if it is positioned and performed properly. There's no reason to need a spotter on bench unless you're going for a 1 or 2 rm. Anything that's a 3rm or higher, if you've been lifting a few months you'll be able to tell if you're not going to get the next rep. Even if you do occasionally fail, so long as you're not completely alone in the gym (you're never alone in a commercial gym) someone is going to come help you. It's not that the machine is the worst thing you could do - it's a hell of a lot better than nothing - it's just that there's no reason to be so afraid of benching. If it's really that big a problem, go do your benching in the power rack. | ||
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MtlGuitarist97
United States1539 Posts
On March 13 2013 00:11 phyre112 wrote: There's no reason to need a spotter on bench unless you're going for a 1 or 2 rm. Anything that's a 3rm or higher, if you've been lifting a few months you'll be able to tell if you're not going to get the next rep. Even if you do occasionally fail, so long as you're not completely alone in the gym (you're never alone in a commercial gym) someone is going to come help you. It's not that the machine is the worst thing you could do - it's a hell of a lot better than nothing - it's just that there's no reason to be so afraid of benching. If it's really that big a problem, go do your benching in the power rack. I've done the chest press machine and all I can say is this: It doesn't really make you that much stronger. You will be able to lift more weight, but that's more due to the fact that it's repetitive motion than it is about gaining strength. As someone who can do 200 lbs on a rowing machine (the one with the two handles) and 170 lbs on the chest press machine, I can tell you that really the only thing that has helped me gain strength is the rowing machine in conjunction with dumbbell training and pullups. I'm not really that much stronger after doing the machines, it's more that I can just move more weight. You won't build function strength by doing those machines, and your physique won't change much. It might be ok if you are just doing some light work and need to warm up, but I don't really recommend it for much other than that (at least in my experience). The only machines that really can help you build strength are the ones where you have to physically move the weight up or down (like the shoulder press or the pull down machines) instead of horizontally. | ||
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ieatkids5
United States4628 Posts
On March 13 2013 07:10 MtlGuitarist97 wrote: I've done the chest press machine and all I can say is this: It doesn't really make you that much stronger. You will be able to lift more weight, but that's more due to the fact that it's repetitive motion than it is about gaining strength. As someone who can do 200 lbs on a rowing machine (the one with the two handles) and 170 lbs on the chest press machine, I can tell you that really the only thing that has helped me gain strength is the rowing machine in conjunction with dumbbell training and pullups. I'm not really that much stronger after doing the machines, it's more that I can just move more weight. You won't build function strength by doing those machines, and your physique won't change much. It might be ok if you are just doing some light work and need to warm up, but I don't really recommend it for much other than that (at least in my experience). The only machines that really can help you build strength are the ones where you have to physically move the weight up or down (like the shoulder press or the pull down machines) instead of horizontally. your last sentence doesnt make any sense to me. why would the shoulder press machine get you any better results than the chest pess machine simply because it's in a different direction? in both machines, you're still only creating force in one direction along a controlled movement path. if anything, you should get better results in pulling movements done on a machine (rows and pulldowns) compared to pushing movements (chest and shoulder press) because the machine pulling is more similar to freeweight pulling than machine pushing is to freeweight pushing. there is less stabilization involved in pulling than pushing, and working the stabilization is what makes using freeweights better than machines. | ||
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MtlGuitarist97
United States1539 Posts
On March 13 2013 09:10 ieatkids5 wrote: your last sentence doesnt make any sense to me. why would the shoulder press machine get you any better results than the chest pess machine simply because it's in a different direction? in both machines, you're still only creating force in one direction along a controlled movement path. if anything, you should get better results in pulling movements done on a machine (rows and pulldowns) compared to pushing movements (chest and shoulder press) because the machine pulling is more similar to freeweight pulling than machine pushing is to freeweight pushing. there is less stabilization involved in pulling than pushing, and working the stabilization is what makes using freeweights better than machines. In the chest press (I wasn't really referring to the rowing machine with that last statement, but I'll talk about it anyway), you're just pushing the object out horizontally. There's a slight angle that you're pushing it at, but it's not really much of an angle. That means that the only "resistance" you're pushing against is that slight incline. As said in Starting Strength, the only way to measure how much work you're doing is by vertical movement. If something is being moved vertically, that means you're going to have much more resistance than if you're just moving it horizontally. Horizontal movements tend to be...easier (?) than vertical movements because you can kind of bullshit the rep and not do a great job on it. If a weight is too heavy for you to push up, there's no shot of you being able to push it up (think a bench press, ohp, or like a row where you're pulling the weight up). Since you're just kind of pushing the weight out, it's a little bit easier to get the weight to move because you don't have gravity pushing so heavily against the weight. If you go do the machines yourself, you'll be able to feel a huge difference in the exercises. I have done the chest press machine and the shoulder press machine and the rowing machine before. I don't see much of a visual (or even strength) difference in my chest as much as I do back, and I definitely don't see as much of a difference in the strength of my back as I do in my shoulders. It's anecdotal, but it's way easier to build muscle when you're moving a weight vertically because that's the only way that you can measure "work." Edit: I think you misunderstood what I was saying (or I didn't work it clearly enough). I wasn't saying that pushing vs. pulling is any better, I was just saying that vertical movement vs. horizontal movement makes a huge difference when using weight machines. | ||
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Thor.Rush
Sweden702 Posts
Also, it should definitely be possible to get good gains on almost any exercise including the chest press machine. With enough resistance and focusing on squeezing dem pecs, I don't see why you wouldn't be able to make gains (free weights still obviously better). Machines in general are also really convenient for drop sets. I'm training for hypertrophy btw (strength is secondary for me). | ||
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ieatkids5
United States4628 Posts
In the chest press (I wasn't really referring to the rowing machine with that last statement, but I'll talk about it anyway), you're just pushing the object out horizontally. There's a slight angle that you're pushing it at, but it's not really much of an angle. That means that the only "resistance" you're pushing against is that slight incline. As said in Starting Strength, the only way to measure how much work you're doing is by vertical movement. If something is being moved vertically, that means you're going to have much more resistance than if you're just moving it horizontally. ill definitely have to disagree with you here. resistance is resistance no matter what direction. i havent read SS, but if its saying that vertical movement = work, then i think it is referring to the fact that it is a program that only uses freeweights. since gravity only works vertically, and freeweights require gravity to provide resistance (in most cases). in other words, freeweights need to be moved vertically to offer resistance. machines don't, because you can row or press horizontally, and it moves the weights up and down. if you wanna do dumbbell rows, you need to bend over and do them vertically (perpendicular to the ground) Horizontal movements tend to be...easier (?) than vertical movements because you can kind of bullshit the rep and not do a great job on it. If a weight is too heavy for you to push up, there's no shot of you being able to push it up (think a bench press, ohp, or like a row where you're pulling the weight up). Since you're just kind of pushing the weight out, it's a little bit easier to get the weight to move because you don't have gravity pushing so heavily against the weight. i dont think this is true either. there shouldn't be a difference in horizontal vs vertical movements on machines. with freeweights however, pulling movements should be "easier" than pushing movements because there is less stabilization needed. think about a dumbbell row vs a dumbbell press. in a row, you just pull the dumbbell up. no stabilization needed because the anchor (your shoulder) is above the weight. all the force is just goingup. in a dumbbell press, you need stabilization because the anchor (your shoulder) is under the dumbbell. when you push up, you also need to create bits of force in all directions on the horizontal plane in order to keep the dumbbell from falling to the side. when you are pushing 100lbs horizontally for a distance of -2 feet on a machine, you have to create the same amount of force as pushing 100lbs vertically 2 feet on a machine (im talking about how far the actual weight travels, not your arms).. there's no "bullshit rep." you either create enough force to move it or you dont. If you go do the machines yourself, you'll be able to feel a huge difference in the exercises. I have done the chest press machine and the shoulder press machine and the rowing machine before. I don't see much of a visual (or even strength) difference in my chest as much as I do back, and I definitely don't see as much of a difference in the strength of my back as I do in my shoulders. It's anecdotal, but it's way easier to build muscle when you're moving a weight vertically because that's the only way that you can measure "work." again, i dont think this is true. if you are not doing work in horizontal movements, then why cant i do 300lbs on the chest press (which is horizontal)? because there IS work involved, and moving the 300lbs on the chest press needs the same amount of force as moving 300 lbs on the shoulder press (given equal distance moved). I think you misunderstood what I was saying (or I didn't work it clearly enough). I wasn't saying that pushing vs. pulling is any better, I was just saying that vertical movement vs. horizontal movement makes a huge difference when using weight machines. ok, i didn't misunderstand you. i am saying that there is no difference between horizontal vs vertical movements. i am also saying that the difference lies in the following: - freeweight pushing (must be vertical because it's freeweight) is hardest because it requires stabilization - freeweight pulling (again, must be vertical) is less hard because it requires less stabilization - machine pulling and machine pushing (no matter horizontal or vertical) are about the same difficulty, but easier than freeweight pulling - as such, machine pulling is more similar to freeweight pulling than machine pushing is to freeweight pushing edit - rereading my post, it sounds like im being super harsh or something. im not, it's just hard to convey the correct tone on the internet just good discussion. maybe i should add smiley faces throughout the post... | ||
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MtlGuitarist97
United States1539 Posts
Whether or not each machine is easier than the other is completely irrelevant, the final conclusion should just be that machines are terrible for building strength or muscle. The original post basically said that the machine is better than nothing, which is true, but suggests doing the bench press instead of doing machines. Even though you can build strength by doing the chest machines and stuff, you won't build functioning strength which is what I was referring to. How often in real life can you just push something using purely your pectoral muscles? You never do. Your legs will create the drive, your shoulders will help support the weight and your chest will also help push the weight. You won't just be shoving an object that weighs considerably more than you do across, even if you play a sport with lots of pushing like football. Even if you think that you can build strength from machines, I merely said that you will build MORE functioning strength by using a machine that has a motion that is A.) Used in a natural environment or B.) Using multiple muslces. The chest press does neither of those. You can build strength by doing it, but I'm saying that it won't be as noticeable as you would when you do a machine that follows a different pattern of motion. And also to Thor.Rush, you can use machines to get some gains, but your gains drop off REALLY quickly due to the fact that it's hard to significantly stress multiple muscles and the fact that you have to use so many machines to train the same amount of muscles that doing a single exercise like the squat or deadlift. | ||
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