These guys are strong no question, but then looking at bodybuilders you get abs like these:
Zyzz didn't do squats, it's a totally different regime. Eventually everyone has to look at, how much those higher numbers in the gym, and the convenience of being strong is. Because the average person wont know how much you lift at the gym or even care. And knowing you look good in peoples eyes may be more important to some people, it'd give me more confidence to me atleast, as opposed to eventually being able to deadlift 600lb or something.
It's very dependent on your goals and how your body reacts. I know I'm still a beginner at the gym, but I feel like I can make the right decisions in what training program I need because I feel like I understand it. Adding some high rep lifts with low rep ones. At first I did think this was the best place for weightlifting information, and it is an amazing source for sure. But there is a lot other stuff out there, from personal trainers, bodybuilding.com, successful lifters at your local gym. Just never assume something as a given just because you read it in a forum, especially not with something like weightlifting.
1) He most certainly did do squats. Besides that, everytime someone posts a guy as his rolemodel who got himself killed at 22 most likely because of all the shit he did to his body, I die a little inside. 2) Just the thought that as a beginner you understand what you are doing is alien to me. It is really easy to believe that, when your numbers go up every week and your physic improves all the time. Just prepare to be humbled after the beginner stage, regardless of what regime you are doing. There is so much to learn about your body in regards to recovery, food intake, handling volume and intensity. Just finding out through trial and error takes forever.
Anyway, I am not saying do SS it is obviously not the only way to go, do whatever pleases you and just work hard. That is the most important part of all and will net you results. Just realize that the day comes where you go for 3x8 cable rows with the same weight as in the last 5 weeks and you still cannot get that last rep in, makes you want to punch beautiful things. But the bodies you linked above have nothing to do with training, they are just a function of eating habits, steroids use and, by extension, genetics.
I'm also doing bodybuilding style training, and I would disagree completely with what you said, Fiwifaki. I always hear this stuff from my friends who work out, tone here, define there yada yada. In reality muscles can only get bigger, or they can get smaller, no other bullshit. I would argue that squats and deadlifts are the two most important bodybuilding exercises that no one should ever even think of skipping. Why? Because they are the two best muscle builders.
Saying squats and deadlifts gives you bad bulky abs is just ridiculous to me. I can GUARANTEE you that if the powerlifter were at like 5-7% bodyfat like zyzz on that pic, he would have a lot more impressive abs than him. There is a common misconception that bigger abs make you look fat, while it is the exact opposite. If the muscles stick out further from the body they will look more defined, which means it will look like you have lower bodyfat than you actually have.
And you can certainly do SS like training and not be fat. It's all about what you eat. In fact, almost every single difference between a powerlifting body and a bodybuilding body is because of what they eat. If you look at Layne Norton after he got into powerlifting, he still looked like a bodybuilder but the powerlifting made him bigger. This was because even though he quit bodybuilding, he kept eating like one, always keeping track of what he ate and never went out to feast with "I lifted heavy" as an excuse.
Edit: About increasing weight, yes as a bodybuilder you should probably care less about how much you lift, but that doesn't change the fact that you still want to progress your lifts every single week, or atleast have a set goal like "Ok one month from now my bench should be 10pounds more than what it is now". If you're not making progress you're not getting stronger, If you're not getting stronger you're not getting bigger.
"It's just you and me! We gonna see if you can break me!"
I admit that I burst out laughing at that. Layne Norton may be a great bodybuilder/powerlifter, but he's the most ridiculous self-motivator in the world.
Congrats on the book eshlow! You should definitely make a bodyweight training topic, I'm getting more and more interested in it since I have to commute almost 20 minutes to my gym right now >_>
Not a bad read, I like most of the reasoning. Particularly the LOL HAMSTRING CURLS bit.
part 2 point 16 (i think) raises one of those interesting abdominal function questions. Transverse abs and pelvic floor (this is what they are aiming at with the 'drawing in' idea) vs global abs. Honestly don't know that there is substantiated proof one way or the other it seems like it just depends on which university you go to
On November 23 2011 12:43 phyre112 wrote: haven't been to the gym for the last two weeks; couldn't stop coughing for ten minutes at a given time, less if I was up and moving... so I figured I couldn't keep the tension in my body to lift safely. Went back and hit the weights I was doing pretty easily, but couldn't finish all the sets =/. I've recently stopped taking creatine, I've just gotten over being sick and I had a killer headache the whole time - I'm going to chalk it up to that. I've dropped something like five pounds in the last two weeks - and eight pounds the two weeks before that. UGH.
Also, I'm home for thanksgiving break... so I was at a local gym. Was asked twice if I'm playing for the new semi-pro hockey team in the area, so I guess to someone who doesn't know what they're doing, I appear to be moving a respectable amount of weight!
Gotta put that weight back on though. I am going to be huge.
That's the spirit. I'd stay away from creatine, your drops after working out are quite severe... Like you experienced. Creatine or no creatine, you'll reach the same point eventually.
What do you mean "I'd stay away from the creatine" what does that have to do with anything??
On November 23 2011 18:03 sJarl wrote: about the powerlifter stomach thing: it's just a result of them being lazy fucks. I could post the pic of myself earlier in the thread (for a novice powerlifter) or just the insane transformation Dave Gulledge went through when he got injuried.
"Powerlifters are all fat" - lol
Although I agree that his transformation is amazing. People have to understand that he is on steroids and that plays a significant part in how he looks and how he was able to cut to that weight while maintaining that muscle mass. So I feel its not really a relevant example for the people posting on this board. (although as an extreme example it does get the point across) Where as your picture is definitely a better indicator.
On November 23 2011 18:50 Sneakyz wrote: I'm also doing bodybuilding style training, and I would disagree completely with what you said, Fiwifaki. I always hear this stuff from my friends who work out, tone here, define there yada yada. In reality muscles can only get bigger, or they can get smaller, no other bullshit. I would argue that squats and deadlifts are the two most important bodybuilding exercises that no one should ever even think of skipping. Why? Because they are the two best muscle builders.
Saying squats and deadlifts gives you bad bulky abs is just ridiculous to me. I can GUARANTEE you that if the powerlifter were at like 5-7% bodyfat like zyzz on that pic, he would have a lot more impressive abs than him. There is a common misconception that bigger abs make you look fat, while it is the exact opposite. If the muscles stick out further from the body they will look more defined, which means it will look like you have lower bodyfat than you actually have.
And you can certainly do SS like training and not be fat. It's all about what you eat. In fact, almost every single difference between a powerlifting body and a bodybuilding body is because of what they eat. If you look at Layne Norton after he got into powerlifting, he still looked like a bodybuilder but the powerlifting made him bigger. This was because even though he quit bodybuilding, he kept eating like one, always keeping track of what he ate and never went out to feast with "I lifted heavy" as an excuse.
Edit: About increasing weight, yes as a bodybuilder you should probably care less about how much you lift, but that doesn't change the fact that you still want to progress your lifts every single week, or atleast have a set goal like "Ok one month from now my bench should be 10pounds more than what it is now". If you're not making progress you're not getting stronger, If you're not getting stronger you're not getting bigger.
You can guarantee that? what??? Zyzz had an amazing genetic shape. Including the way that his abs looked. He was very lucky to have the muscle insertions that he did.
Powerlifting doesn't give your abdominal muscles an advantage to a body builder who trains correctly.
I think that there is a big difference between powerlifting and body building and its not just in the diet. (sure diet plays a part) but the training is to achieve different goals.
I completely agree with your edit.
Its all about smart programming and sticking to a good routine. Strength and progression are always important.
I personally think that as a beginner you should get your lifts to at least 2 plate bench 3 plate squat 4 plate deadlift
thats why starting strength is so good because if you do everything correctly there should be no reason why you couldn't get near those numbers. (or more!!)
Once you have that base then its up to you where you want to go.
On November 23 2011 12:43 phyre112 wrote: haven't been to the gym for the last two weeks; couldn't stop coughing for ten minutes at a given time, less if I was up and moving... so I figured I couldn't keep the tension in my body to lift safely. Went back and hit the weights I was doing pretty easily, but couldn't finish all the sets =/. I've recently stopped taking creatine, I've just gotten over being sick and I had a killer headache the whole time - I'm going to chalk it up to that. I've dropped something like five pounds in the last two weeks - and eight pounds the two weeks before that. UGH.
Also, I'm home for thanksgiving break... so I was at a local gym. Was asked twice if I'm playing for the new semi-pro hockey team in the area, so I guess to someone who doesn't know what they're doing, I appear to be moving a respectable amount of weight!
Gotta put that weight back on though. I am going to be huge.
That's the spirit. I'd stay away from creatine, your drops after working out are quite severe... Like you experienced. Creatine or no creatine, you'll reach the same point eventually.
Maybe I'll post a video for my pull-ups. The initial part is easy because and the finish to get as high as possible is rough due to the possibility of me doing a jerking motion for my back exercises. It's just natural to start doing that and use momentum to finish the end of your lift (gets higher numbers too), therefore that part of muscle may not be developing properly. Time to go back to the basics and make sure my form is good.
On November 23 2011 08:35 glurio wrote: You should switch your routine up, the bro-split isn't very good. I used it too for a long time and got much better results with different splits. Try Upper/Lower with ABA on week 1 and BAB on week 2 or some advanced routine, look in the training thread stickie there should be a link. What helped me the most was training everything 2 times a week.
If you can curl that much it's definately not your biceps which lacks. Try bent over rows, seated cable rows, lat pulldowns, all heavy to get your lats up a bit. Don't forget your upper back, get it mad strong, looks good and helps with pullups.
I've never heard anyone having problems with negative pull-ups. It's basically what i always recommend people for learning their first pull up.
The reason I really like the "Bro-split" is it allows me to work out the next day. A SS strength cycle you really can't do more often once every 6 days. When I have the time I can comfortably do back + triceps if the day before I did chest + biceps. I can do this every 4 days. It really lets me what I want to achieve done.
I feel like everyone here is focusing on only lifting more, which I'm not saying is a bad thing, but a look of the bodies here don't impress me. That bulky often chubby thing isn't my thing, aesthetics are important to me. I feel like I've trained my body to the size I want it at, 170lb for 5'10" 17 year old who has very little body fat is a good number in my opinion. And the bro-workout is what a lot of my buddies at the gym do, and I like the way they look... Sometimes you have to ask yourself if you want to those 30" quads, or a power lifter stomach.
I'll look into your suggestion, but doing as much work on your lower body as your upper body seems a lot. Lots more to do on the upper.
I focus exclusively on lifting more weight (I only do sets in 1-3 reps) and I daresay at 6'1 205 I have a better body than 90% of people you see at the gym on the bro split. Powerlifting (and now oly lifting for me) is a perfectly reasonable way to accomplish both goals of getting strong and great aesthetics.
Idk i just like SS(or in my case SL5x5) because it focuses on just a couple lifts that work a bunch of muscles. that makes your program simpler with less moves to master the form for. this gets you in and out of the gym and probably less prone to injury. also i find "lifting more" is a better goal for me because it gives very immediate, concrete results/feedback that keeps me motivated to continue.
All of this 6 pack body building discussion reminded me of this.
[Tyler and Narrator get on a bus. Narrator studies the faces of the othe passengers] Narrator: [voice over] We all started seeing things differently. Everywhere we went, we were sizing things up. [Narrator looks up an advertisement; a Gucci underwear ad featuring a tan, bare-chested, muscled model] Narrator: [voice over] I felt sorry for the guys packing into gyms, trying to look like Calvin Klein and Tommy Hilfiger said they should. Narrator: [indicating to the ad] Is that how a man looks like? [Tyler looks at the ad and laughs] Tyler: Ahh, self-improvement is masturbation. And self-destruction...
On November 23 2011 12:43 phyre112 wrote: haven't been to the gym for the last two weeks; couldn't stop coughing for ten minutes at a given time, less if I was up and moving... so I figured I couldn't keep the tension in my body to lift safely. Went back and hit the weights I was doing pretty easily, but couldn't finish all the sets =/. I've recently stopped taking creatine, I've just gotten over being sick and I had a killer headache the whole time - I'm going to chalk it up to that. I've dropped something like five pounds in the last two weeks - and eight pounds the two weeks before that. UGH.
Also, I'm home for thanksgiving break... so I was at a local gym. Was asked twice if I'm playing for the new semi-pro hockey team in the area, so I guess to someone who doesn't know what they're doing, I appear to be moving a respectable amount of weight!
Gotta put that weight back on though. I am going to be huge.
That's the spirit. I'd stay away from creatine, your drops after working out are quite severe... Like you experienced. Creatine or no creatine, you'll reach the same point eventually.
What do you mean "I'd stay away from the creatine" what does that have to do with anything??
On November 23 2011 18:03 sJarl wrote: about the powerlifter stomach thing: it's just a result of them being lazy fucks. I could post the pic of myself earlier in the thread (for a novice powerlifter) or just the insane transformation Dave Gulledge went through when he got injuried.
"Powerlifters are all fat" - lol
Although I agree that his transformation is amazing. People have to understand that he is on steroids and that plays a significant part in how he looks and how he was able to cut to that weight while maintaining that muscle mass. So I feel its not really a relevant example for the people posting on this board. (although as an extreme example it does get the point across) Where as your picture is definitely a better indicator.
On November 23 2011 18:50 Sneakyz wrote: I'm also doing bodybuilding style training, and I would disagree completely with what you said, Fiwifaki. I always hear this stuff from my friends who work out, tone here, define there yada yada. In reality muscles can only get bigger, or they can get smaller, no other bullshit. I would argue that squats and deadlifts are the two most important bodybuilding exercises that no one should ever even think of skipping. Why? Because they are the two best muscle builders.
Saying squats and deadlifts gives you bad bulky abs is just ridiculous to me. I can GUARANTEE you that if the powerlifter were at like 5-7% bodyfat like zyzz on that pic, he would have a lot more impressive abs than him. There is a common misconception that bigger abs make you look fat, while it is the exact opposite. If the muscles stick out further from the body they will look more defined, which means it will look like you have lower bodyfat than you actually have.
And you can certainly do SS like training and not be fat. It's all about what you eat. In fact, almost every single difference between a powerlifting body and a bodybuilding body is because of what they eat. If you look at Layne Norton after he got into powerlifting, he still looked like a bodybuilder but the powerlifting made him bigger. This was because even though he quit bodybuilding, he kept eating like one, always keeping track of what he ate and never went out to feast with "I lifted heavy" as an excuse.
Edit: About increasing weight, yes as a bodybuilder you should probably care less about how much you lift, but that doesn't change the fact that you still want to progress your lifts every single week, or atleast have a set goal like "Ok one month from now my bench should be 10pounds more than what it is now". If you're not making progress you're not getting stronger, If you're not getting stronger you're not getting bigger.
You can guarantee that? what??? Zyzz had an amazing genetic shape. Including the way that his abs looked. He was very lucky to have the muscle insertions that he did.
Powerlifting doesn't give your abdominal muscles an advantage to a body builder who trains correctly.
I think that there is a big difference between powerlifting and body building and its not just in the diet. (sure diet plays a part) but the training is to achieve different goals.
I completely agree with your edit.
Its all about smart programming and sticking to a good routine. Strength and progression are always important.
I personally think that as a beginner you should get your lifts to at least 2 plate bench 3 plate squat 4 plate deadlift
thats why starting strength is so good because if you do everything correctly there should be no reason why you couldn't get near those numbers. (or more!!)
Once you have that base then its up to you where you want to go.
zyzz was on steroids too, it wasnt all genes. anyway I think its unfair to attribute everything to genes. kinda neglects all the hard work people put into their training! and I agree with you on those strength numbers, although maybe it should be something in relation to bodyweight (like squat: 2x bw, deadlift: 2.5x bw, bench: 1.5x bw). if you cant lift those numbers, there's not much muscle to show anyway when you shed the fat
well, heavier people have a way easier time hitting a 3 plate squat as well. its just a rule of thumb.
edit: and tbh I dont think those 1RM calculators are of much use. my 1rm on bench press is supposed to be 110kg, but I cant see myself benching this weight at the moment. same with squat and deadlift (I actually tested my supposed deadlift 1rm according to that calculator and I utterly failed. bar wouldnt even move.)
On November 24 2011 01:34 Zafrumi wrote: well, heavier people have a way easier time hitting a 3 plate squat as well. its just a rule of thumb.
edit: and tbh I dont think those 1RM calculators are of much use. my 1rm on bench press is supposed to be 110kg, but I cant see myself benching this weight at the moment. same with squat and deadlift (I actually tested my supposed deadlift 1rm according to that calculators and I utterly failed. bar wouldnt even move.)
Of course! But a 100kg person has to squat 200kg to have a 2x BW squat, which is a pretty insane number. For a 2.5x BW deadlift, this number would have to be 250kg... something that I think no member of this forum has even hit.
It's all just so dependent on height, limb length, etc.
EPT![[image loading]](http://muscleandbrawn.com/forums/attachments/general-fitness-health/1929d1284131465-whats-your-ideal-physique-dave-tate-squats.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_opkI5kI1V_M/TSBssfB92KI/AAAAAAAAADw/GX_cJ6nl3AU/s1600/zyzz+biceps.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KGS9G.jpg)
