EPTThe LiquidLegends Lounge - Page 1846
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Karis Vas Ryaar
United States4396 Posts
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Duvon
Sweden2360 Posts
Truestrike for everyone! Saw the effigon now, those are some juicy juicy offensive stats. Though of course no life. wrong thread again. | ||
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
On March 05 2018 22:41 Numy wrote: I wouldn't say it's all because of the whole dissenting opinion though. I get the impression that people consume content so fast nowadays that whatever place has the highest cycle is where they go to. Reddit is insanely fast compared to traditional forums. If we take a look at the anime community you see something super strange happening. People focus so hard on what is currently airing. Essentially instead of caring about the show itself it's more about being part of the conversation around the show. If you a bit too late the conversation moves on and now you missed the reason for being engages. World is just so insanely fast. I struggle to keep up even on the TL anime thread I visit regularly. edit: Hell we see it in other media too. We have a massive tragedy happen on Tuesday then by Thursday people already forgotten about it. It's like everyone has developed ADHD. | ||
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
On March 07 2018 06:54 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote: I think If I knew the games or the players so I had someone to root for I'd enjoy Battle royale esports more. I just can't get into it right now One of the biggest problems BR esports has is how insanely important a good observer is. There are maybe 20 interesting minutes of content at most in a 40m game, and they're spread into 120 different 10s chunks all over the map, often at the same time. The big tourney last week almost pulled it off, but they had screen in screen all over the place and what seemed like 15 observers and an entire production crew just for obsing, and still missed half of it in the more chaotic phases. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
On March 06 2018 18:14 GhandiEAGLE wrote: I think watching all these esports cannibalize each other has given me yet more profound respect and admiration for the lasting success of BroodWar. Although I have mixed feelings about the experimental map pool, ASL 5 hype! | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
Think it's a fine format if participation is your goal but for a competitive tournament it's garbage. | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
Tiebreakers are one of the big ways it separates players. The issue with tiebreakers is that who you lost to is given very high weighting. So if you say lost to a person that tanks afterwards you're tiebreakers will be pretty messed compared to a person with the exact same match record as you that lost to someone that did well. Is that fair? Maybe not but if the goal is quick cutoff then it makes sense you have to do it somehow. The reverse is also an issue where a cutoff relies on an opponent you lost to beating someone else or winning to get you a high tiebreaker. However if they are already guaranteed the cutoff there's not much incentive for them to actually try their best. In magic this is even worse as the top 2 players often choose to intentionally draw the match and split prizes rather then play events or you have players forfeiting matches because their tiebreakers are worse than opponents thus giving opponent a chance to make cutoff. Both are really horrible for any other competitor. They kind of undermine the spirit of competition. The format encourages all this kind of stuff so it's hard to really blame the player. I've always said that if you create a format that doesn't actively incentivize players to win then they will do what is best for them. That isn't their fault, it's your formats. Anyway I'm ranting hard here. I just do not like Swiss for competitive events. It's an ok compromise when you just don't have another option but if you do then don't use it! edit: I'm obviously biased not giving many positives. So I'll end with. Fuck Swiss. :D Watching players beg for their opponent to concede while using the official correct terms is fucking awful. Fuck you Wotc for letting this be a thing and fuck you magic players for preferring to play lawyer than the actual game!@#$ | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Also, Swiss does a better job of making sure the best player wins the tournament than single or double elimination do? Isn't that the main point of it? It gets close to round robin without needing near as many games to be played. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
Round Robin leagues are the best at determining the best consistent competitors over a long duration. edit: Let me explain a bit. In all matches are not equal. A win in the early round can mean less than a win in the later round. The same is true for losses. This creates a situation where the number 1 competitor never faces the number 2 competitor. A loss early on can lead to entering a bracket of weaker competition which would let you get the same points as another person who won early but lost later against tougher opponents. This can screw up tiebreakers as I mentioned though. So it's very odd to call a person the best when they never fought it out with the person you are calling the second best. How did you get those two in that order if they never played? It's common sense that transient ordering doesn't make any sense yet that's what Swiss can do. I remember many moons ago when I was a young lad I played in an event running Swiss system. We won that event. The guys that came second were extremely angry since they never actually played us. It felt like we gamed the system to them in order to win while they were left without options. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On March 07 2018 23:58 Numy wrote: Tiebreakers are one of the big ways it separates players. The issue with tiebreakers is that who you lost to is given very high weighting. So if you say lost to a person that tanks afterwards you're tiebreakers will be pretty messed compared to a person with the exact same match record as you that lost to someone that did well. Is that fair? Maybe not but if the goal is quick cutoff then it makes sense you have to do it somehow. The reverse is also an issue where a cutoff relies on an opponent you lost to beating someone else or winning to get you a high tiebreaker. However if they are already guaranteed the cutoff there's not much incentive for them to actually try their best. In magic this is even worse as the top 2 players often choose to intentionally draw the match and split prizes rather then play events or you have players forfeiting matches because their tiebreakers are worse than opponents thus giving opponent a chance to make cutoff. Both are really horrible for any other competitor. They kind of undermine the spirit of competition. Tiebreakers are used only because the tournament has too many players and cannot play a sufficient number of rounds to not need tiebreakers. This isn't a problem with Swiss, it's a problem with the fact that the PT shouldn't be a 300-500 man tournament. If you have a small enough number of players, and a large enough numbers of rounds, you don't need tiebreakers. They only arise because PTs have too many players and not enough rounds--which is going to cause problems regardless of what format you use. | ||
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Dandel Ion
Austria17960 Posts
that said the extent to which mtg (probably childrens card games in general) tournaments disincentivise actually playing the game is legit hilarious | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On March 08 2018 00:38 TheYango wrote: To be fair, Numy, I would argue that a lot of your problems with the PT aren't the Swiss format, but the fact that its a 300-500 player tournament crammed into a single weekend. A lot of the issues would be solved if the PT had more qualification rounds and the tournament itself was a 16-player tournament like Worlds is. For example: Tiebreakers are used only because the tournament has too many players and cannot play a sufficient number of rounds to not need tiebreakers. This isn't a problem with Swiss, it's a problem with the fact that the PT shouldn't be a 300-500 man tournament. If you have a small enough number of players, and a large enough numbers of rounds, you don't need tiebreakers. They only arise because PTs have too many players and not enough rounds--which is going to cause problems regardless of what format you use. Tiebreakers are not a PT only issue. I think you confusing my dislike of the PT format with my dislike of Swiss. They two separate issues. If you have small enough players and large enough number of rounds you don't play swiss you play a good format like double elim or a decent format like seeded round robin groups into SE. PT format I think its silly because it's essentially testing two different types of things in it's regular play then it cuts to a top 8 single elim bracket and only plays one of those two types. So it's saying "you're good enough for top 8 based on your performance in these two aspects but now to win only the one aspect matters". That's just silly. Swiss is pretty good if your goals are: a) Making sure everyone gets full number of matches b) Rapidly reducing player size It is not good for determining the best player at the even or is it good for determining the ranking of players at the event. I find a format that is unable to do either of those well not suited for competitive play. Sometimes it's the best of a bad situation which I can accept. edit: On March 08 2018 00:55 Dandel Ion wrote: in rng heavy games (id count battle royales too, card games its obvious) its very questionable you could possibly create any format where the best players end up on top. that said the extent to which mtg (probably childrens card games in general) tournaments disincentivise actually playing the game is legit hilarious RNG heavy games should be focusing more on consistency over a period of time and not placings within single events. ELO is pretty good at this isn't it? That's only way I can think of making them work. WotC has tried their hardest to disincentivise playing magic for some reason. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Tried to Google it and couldn't find anything on it, would love to see some proof one way or the other. Swiss also doesn't reduce the number of players at an event, I'm starting to feel like numy doesn't know what he's talking about. | ||
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
Btw I dont think any serious sport uses FFA. Stuff like gladiator games had that, which is about spectacle. But I can not see how FFA could ever work for sports (including esports) as it will usually come down to who attacks whom. | ||
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mordek
United States12705 Posts
Also, America has made ketara more feisty I think. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
The bad thing about Swiss is that it makes for shitty spectating because it creates situations where in the final game the top player can lose the game and still win the tournament. So it's dumb for esports in general. As a tournament system it's great at just about everything else. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On March 08 2018 01:28 Ketara wrote: I am finding it pretty unbelievable that double elim is a more accurate way to find the best player than Swiss. It seems pretty common sense that any knockout format would be inherrantly worse at that. Tried to Google it and couldn't find anything on it, would love to see some proof one way or the other. Swiss also doesn't reduce the number of players at an event, I'm starting to feel like numy doesn't know what he's talking about. I mean you can do some research and one of the first things that come up is how a disadvantage of swiss is that it isn't a good way to determine the best participant. But hey I have no fucking clue what I'm talking about. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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