EPTMany of the best private universities in the US are actually the best about providing aid thanks to their multi-billion dollar endowments. Its arguably more expensive for a "top" student to go to a weaker school, and its arguably those weaker schools that are worse about giving their students' money's worth.
Off-Topic General Discussion - Page 5045
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
Many of the best private universities in the US are actually the best about providing aid thanks to their multi-billion dollar endowments. Its arguably more expensive for a "top" student to go to a weaker school, and its arguably those weaker schools that are worse about giving their students' money's worth. | ||
Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21245 Posts
On May 21 2015 00:44 Ketara wrote: "Historically we've never been able to do X" is not an acceptable argument for not striving to do something as a society. I think I've made it pretty obvious already, but in case I haven't, I agree with the more idealized notion of education. But just because something should happen doesn't mean it will happen. As such, acting according to what should happen, when divorced from reality, is not advisable, which brings us back to the original point of the practical considerations of a college education in modern American society. On May 21 2015 00:42 Numy wrote: It's next level divergence. ? I went back and read the posts and you seem to have taken my challenge of the notion that the rest of the world is "doing it better" is divergence, when I think you're just being too narrowminded in your definitions and the implications of education as a whole. If you really want to wax philosophical about it, consider this: The goal of education is not to pump as many people through college as possible as an end unto itself. I would assume that you'd agree with the idea that education is meant to advance human knowledge and understanding and progress - which is overwhelmingly done at the top, provided that the education of the average man is also rising to provide a pool of people to rise to the top, and to, you know, make society livable in general. Thus far, there has never been a system that has been able to do both in equal measure, so to expect something that has never before been accomplished is a lofty goal at best. On May 21 2015 00:47 TheYango wrote: I'm not so sure about that causal relationship Cheep. Many of the best private universities in the US are actually the best about providing aid thanks to their multi-billion dollar endowments. Its arguably more expensive for a "top" student to go to a weaker school, and its arguably those weaker schools that are worse about giving their students' money's worth. On May 21 2015 00:47 TheYango wrote: I'm not so sure about that causal relationship Cheep. Many of the best private universities in the US are actually the best about providing aid thanks to their multi-billion dollar endowments. Its arguably more expensive for a "top" student to go to a weaker school, and its arguably those weaker schools that are worse about giving their students' money's worth. Well the discussion here spiraled from the comparison between the US system vs. systems in other countries. To your point, a top international student would be "wasting his worth" by going to a weaker school. The Canadian system does not produce top schools at the same rate as America, nor does it product the "very best schools TM." Therefore, he has to pay expensive international tuition to hop over to a different system to "get his money's worth" under your setup. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
While sitting on this train in the middle of the night in indonesia, I can have this discussion with cheep while simultaneously having this conversation with Scip: Ketara: Scip, if you search n***** house on google maps it takes you to the white house. Scip: lol wtf? LOL IT DOES HAHAHAHAHAHA | ||
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GhandiEAGLE
United States20754 Posts
UW is cheap and they like Saxophones. I got accepted there a year or two ago anyways. I'll just go there. Whoooo life choices~ | ||
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ComaDose
Canada10357 Posts
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21245 Posts
On May 21 2015 00:55 ComaDose wrote: Canada is worse than europe but not as bad as states tho right? For tuition/cost of college? Yes. It's a huge disparity. | ||
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Prog
United Kingdom1470 Posts
On May 21 2015 00:47 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: [...] If you really want to wax philosophical about it, consider this: The goal of education is not to pump as many people through college as possible as an end unto itself. I would assume that you'd agree with the idea that education is meant to advance human knowledge and understanding and progress - which is overwhelmingly done at the top, provided that the education of the average man is also rising to provide a pool of people to rise to the top, and to, you know, make society livable in general. Thus far, there has never been a system that has been able to do both in equal measure, so to expect something that has never before been accomplished is a lofty goal at best. [...] I can see a very obvious challenge to the claim that education is meant to advance human knowledge and understanding and progress, which goes like this: Education can be seen as a way to grow as a person - to find one's place in the world and society. Moreover, this is precisely what distinguishes education from research. Research is meant to advance knowledge and understanding. Education just is a way of using knowledge to grow as an individual. (I vaguely remember having read something similar to this approach in Pierre Hadot's Philosophy as a Way of Life.) | ||
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ComaDose
Canada10357 Posts
On May 21 2015 00:56 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: For tuition/cost of college? Yes. It's a huge disparity. right I meant cost. worse was a bad choice of words considering how this conversation is going. By that line of thinking is the quality of education at the "top" canadian institutes better than their counter parts in europe due to the additional funding? Sort of like a step toward the way of america? | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
There is blatantly something wrong with it, and its blatantly a solvable problem because its a problem that other parts of the world have to large degree solved. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
Realistically what i want is undergraduate education to be affordable yet still have higher tier level of post graduate work being done. I don't think that's too much to ask. Currently the way universities work is that undergrad education is merely a means to fund their post grad work since post grad work is what distinguishes them as an entity. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On May 21 2015 00:58 ComaDose wrote: right I meant cost. worse was a bad choice of words considering how this conversation is going. By that line of thinking is the quality of education at the "top" canadian institutes better than their counter parts in europe due to the additional funding? Sort of like a step toward the way of america? As far as I know in university rankings, the best ones are so overwhelmingly in america it makes everywhere else look fairly paltry in comparison. The closest competitor is I believe the UK. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
I'm just overall skeptical that mid-level college education reform would negatively impact these schools in a meaningful way. | ||
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21245 Posts
On May 21 2015 01:00 Numy wrote: There seems to be a lot of confusion here. Firstly linked student loans directly to "level of university" seems something that requires hard evidence to provide. The States has had top level universities for longer then crippling student debt has been around. Secondly what it means to be a top university seems to be a little twisted. Universities are generally ranked with heavy weighting on post graduate research and academic reputation. Typically the "top international" students that are trying to get into these top universities are doing so to get into the post graduate research side of things. Doing great research gets you more funding which gets you a better environment to do great research. It's a self fulfilling prophecy in a way. Most institutions have been around for quite some time so in order for anyone new to compete on a research pov they have to get rather huge outside funding. That still doesn't fix the problem of lacking reputation though. Anyway went on a tangent. The main issue is with the implication that student debt is the cause of having top universities and affordable education is the reason for having lower tier universities. I think the fundamental assertion goes even more basic, which is that education cannot be divorced from financial considerations. All other observations about how education currently functions can be derived from that. Realistically what i want is undergraduate education to be affordable yet still have higher tier level of post graduate work being done. I don't think that's too much to ask. Therefore, for this proposal to happen, you need to find a way to either overturn or incorporate the prior assertion into something that transcends it. Which is, again, no easy task. I'm not advocating complacency but I think people are frequently too unrealistic in their expectations. On May 21 2015 01:03 TheYango wrote: I still fail to see how you've established the mutual exclusivity between strong education for the top and accessible education for the average when the "top" in the states is aggregated in a very small number of institutions, many of which are private, and many of which are already more progressive about providing aid to less fortunate students than their mid-tier counterparts. Well, this again goes to the link between education and finances. I don't think it's outlandish to say that the top institutions - who have the financial means to provide for everyone that they want to - cannot exist independently of the innumerable institutions below them, which are obviously not able to provide "free education" in the same way a top school can. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
The argument that american schools are better because the schools themselves have more money is I think correct and accurate. But it doesn't necessarily follow that just because they're more expensive that people should have to go into debt to pay for them. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21245 Posts
On May 21 2015 00:58 Prog wrote: I can see a very obvious challenge to the claim that education is meant to advance human knowledge and understanding and progress, which goes like this: Education can be seen as a way to grow as a person - to find one's place in the world and society. Moreover, this is precisely what distinguishes education from research. Research is meant to advance knowledge and understanding. Education just is a way of using knowledge to grow as an individual. (I vaguely remember having read something similar to this approach in Pierre Hadot's Philosophy as a Way of Life.) This is true and the thought crossed my mind when I was writing that as well, but I think it's disingenuous to treat education and research as separate entities. In addition, while it's fine and dandy to "find one's place in the world and society," it is again historically something that has only been available to the privileged. I don't think there's a practical way to give that to everyone while still maintaining the standards of living that we as a society have come to accept and expect as necessities. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Because I have. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
In other news, has anyone watched Edge of Tomorrow? Thinking of grabbing it but not sure if it's good. | ||
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21245 Posts
On May 21 2015 01:13 Ketara wrote: Have you guys noticed that the entire forum is arguing against cheep in both GD and OT at the same time yet. Because I have. It's a slow day at work. | ||
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