EPTOff-Topic General Discussion - Page 4929
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
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Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
On May 06 2015 23:24 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Good games like BW and SSBM tend to be accidental, so they're hard to replicate. melee was pretty intentional. | ||
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Eppa!
Sweden4641 Posts
On May 06 2015 22:12 cLutZ wrote: To me, actually the opposite is true. Smash Bros is how a sane person makes a fighting game. Combos like Back>Forward>Down>B are idiotic, not only that, they are essential to even a modicum of enjoyment from a standard fighting game. Meanwhile, L-Cancelling and Directional influence are totally intuitive, but also totally irrelevant for players not in the top 10% of the game. L canceling is unintuitive because its based on time rather than distance you need to learn to adjust to hit lag same with meteor cancelling (which the whole concept of it is not intuitive at all.) DI being perpendicular rather than vector based is annoying for when you first learn it. Amsah teching / Wallteching makes no sense at all. Shield dropping has the weirdest execution type of move I have ever seen in a fighting game (maybe Soul Calibur 2 Ivy moves are wonkier.) The fact the only hold commands you can use are shield and shield tech. | ||
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Fildun
Netherlands4123 Posts
On May 06 2015 23:38 Scip wrote: But isn't that like, the coolest thing? I wonder if I'm the only one who feels this way, as a person who has never played fighters, every fighting game seems to pale in comparison with Melee. I feel exactly the same way. | ||
Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21245 Posts
That's patently false. Sure specific mechanics like wavedashing were intentional (contrary to popular belief), but the way the game plays is completely different from what the designers had envisioned. It's very likely that the designers did not have the time/resources/incentive/reason to think through all the interactions we're seeing today in terms of advanced techs that dominate the competitive scene. Indeed, Sakurai is very vocal about never intending Melee to be a competitive game, and has expressed disdain for the competitive scene for a long time. He has recently softened his stance, no doubt driven by Nintendo corporate seeing how lucrative an opportunity ESPORTS could turn out to be. | ||
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AlterKot
Poland7525 Posts
Cheep you read this: http://smashfts.com/2015/02/09/melee-is-an-accident-i-disagree/ ? | ||
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
am I too young to know what that word means? | ||
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GhandiEAGLE
United States20754 Posts
On May 07 2015 00:03 Scip wrote: what do you mean analog am I too young to know what that word means? No. You should know that word Scip. Also Wave pls | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
The thing is, the mechanics involved make it truly unique and as such it would be interesting if the percent or 'knock out' idea would be explored further but I think the classic fg has way too much pull and depth on its on for people to really desire something new in that regard. | ||
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Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
On May 06 2015 23:55 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: That's patently false. Sure specific mechanics like wavedashing were intentional (contrary to popular belief), but the way the game plays is completely different from what the designers had envisioned. It's very likely that the designers did not have the time/resources/incentive/reason to think through all the interactions we're seeing today in terms of advanced techs that dominate the competitive scene. Indeed, Sakurai is very vocal about never intending Melee to be a competitive game, and has expressed disdain for the competitive scene for a long time. He has recently softened his stance, no doubt driven by Nintendo corporate seeing how lucrative an opportunity ESPORTS could turn out to be. not just wave dashing, l-canceling and all of the fancy ledge tech, shield drops, soft/hard hitboxes were all intended on release. examples of stuff that i can think of that weren't intentional include peach float cancels, spacies jumping out of shines, wobbling and other stuff. the core mechanics that made the game competitive were all intended by the developer and everything that the community found simply built upon that. sakurai is just cancerous and needs to go work on a different franchise. i view the game currently as the logical extension of what the developers handed us + 15 years of time to explore what we could do. why is analog bad for fighters? coming off smash i can't imagine playing with a digital controller. | ||
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21245 Posts
On May 06 2015 23:59 AlterKot wrote: As someone who started in anime fighters and only got into Melee after the smash doc, there's a lot I like about SSBM but ultimately I hate the idea of fg played on analog and marvel/persona/etc. have their own perks. Cheep you read this: http://smashfts.com/2015/02/09/melee-is-an-accident-i-disagree/ ? I've read it before, and that article is, frankly, not very good. Literally all it does is explain the features of Melee, which is pretty tautological. "These features are used in competitive, and they're present, therefore the game was made to be competitive" is a very silly argument to make. The article is so blatantly illogical I don't even know how to start. The game was designed to be a FIGHTING game, where you play AGAINST other people, so of course the game was intended to be fun in a multiplayer setting. And "fun" in a multiplayer competitive game typically means it's fairly balanced and there are cool things you can do - that's just game design 101. But that does -not- mean the game was designed to be the highly refined and competitive ESPORT that we see today. Citing features that make the game fun as a generic multiplayer game, which were taken and refined far beyond what the game description/tutorial/etc. described, is not good evidence that the game as it's played today was intended by the designers. | ||
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AlterKot
Poland7525 Posts
On May 07 2015 00:03 Scip wrote: what do you mean analog am I too young to know what that word means? You ever held a controller, like for XBox or PS2 or something? It has a D-Pad and analog sticks. Traditional fighters originated from arcades, and just like dpads, you can only input 8 directions on arcade sticks - up, down, left, right and diagonals (as if you were playing with WSAD/arrows on keyboard). Meanwhile Smash was designed for the console and thus you control the character with an analog stick, and not only you can input infinite number of directions, but also you can push the analog faster, slower, push it all the way or just a bit etc. and it all influences how you move and what moves come out. @edit: typos. | ||
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mordek
United States12705 Posts
Agreed. I'm trash-tier at fighting games though. | ||
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Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
On May 07 2015 00:16 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: I've read it before, and that article is, frankly, not very good. Literally all it does is explain the features of Melee, which is pretty tautological. "These features are used in competitive, and they're present, therefore the game was made to be competitive" is a very silly argument to make. The article is so blatantly illogical I don't even know how to start. The game was designed to be a FIGHTING game, where you play AGAINST other people, so of course the game was intended to be fun in a multiplayer setting. And "fun" in a multiplayer competitive game typically means it's fairly balanced and there are cool things you can do - that's just game design 101. But that does -not- mean the game was designed to be the highly refined and competitive ESPORT that we see today. Citing features that make the game fun as a generic multiplayer game, which were taken and refined far beyond what the game description/tutorial/etc. described, is not good evidence that the game as it's played today was intended by the designers. i don't think that any old game was designed with the intent of being some massive esport. however i think that devs intentionally gave it high skill ceiling. if a game is fun, competitive and has a high skill ceiling i think that it will generally attract a highly competitive audience and the esport aspect evolve naturally like melee did. | ||
onlywonderboy
United States23745 Posts
On May 07 2015 00:11 WaveofShadow wrote: Melee doesn't strike me as a 'true' fighting game as per the generally understood definitions of the genre, but it fits in most ways. The thing is, the mechanics involved make it truly unique and as such it would be interesting if the percent or 'knock out' idea would be explored further but I think the classic fg has way too much pull and depth on its on for people to really desire something new in that regard. The "knock out" mechanic is probably my favorite part of Smash. It's hard to explain, but I just love that a player can throw a life lead just by messing up an edgeguard. Really adds to the risk/rewards of the game. On May 07 2015 00:22 Frolossus wrote: i don't think that any old game was designed with the intent of being some massive esport. however i think that devs intentionally gave it high skill ceiling. if a game is fun, competitive and has a high skill ceiling i think that it will generally attract a highly competitive audience and the esport aspect evolve naturally like melee did. I think you're giving them too much credit. I know a lot of the high skill level techs in the game were intentional, but I doubt they could have imagined all of them being pulled of in conjunction the way it's done now in competitive play. | ||
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
On May 06 2015 23:38 Scip wrote: But isn't that like, the coolest thing? I wonder if I'm the only one who feels this way, as a person who has never played fighters, every fighting game seems to pale in comparison with Melee. Nah, I'm with you. | ||
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21245 Posts
On May 07 2015 00:22 Frolossus wrote: i don't think that any old game was designed with the intent of being some massive esport. however i think that devs intentionally gave it high skill ceiling. if a game is fun, competitive and has a high skill ceiling i think that it will generally attract a highly competitive audience and the esport aspect evolve naturally like melee did. But see, that's my point - SSBM and BW's success were accidental, because there's no way you can say they were the only games that were designed with high skill ceiling, fun, and competitive in mind. "Fun" describes the aspirations of every game period, and "competitive and high skill ceiling" describes every multiplayer game. BW and SSBM happened to stumble into mechanics that made them extremely popular, and thus grew into long-living global phenomena. In contrast, games that are designed, on purpose, to become the next BW/SSBM are pretty much destined for failure since they put the ESPORTS part first. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
I think this is the case for so many people because everyone played melee at a younger age when it came out, whether more competitively or casually, so it's easier to relate to and see what's going on than a typical fighter. Also most fighting game players/watchers love their games and their games alone, so to say other games pale in comparison to melee is likely just bias on the part of the viewer. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
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