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Northern Ireland24995 Posts
On April 05 2024 22:32 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2024 21:37 WombaT wrote:
Another fine day of SC2 action
I really favour Maru to win the whole thing, I just can’t see Stats or Cure beating him, although stranger things have happened. herO can maybe pull it off but he’ll have to bring his A game. Stats’ PvT isn’t hugely different from Classic’s stylistically and Maru dismantled Classic relatively easily, and Cure’s a great TvTer but just rarely comes out on top against Maru Cure isn't a pushover, I'm always worried that Maru can drop a TvT series to him, especially if it's just a Bo5. I do think Maru should be pretty heavily favored if he makes the finals though. herO can get the drop on him two out of three games in a Bo3, but doing so in a Bo7 is another story. Then again, we've seen him do it before. I think Stats and Cure both have their work cut out for them as underdogs to make the finals let alone win, but it would be a great story for either of them to add another trophy to their case.
Aye agreed!
It’s one of those odd ones where I think Cure is better than almost anyone in TvT, and he frequently shows it. But just seems to always lose to Maru, when players who are IMO worse than Cure in the matchup sometimes beat the great man.
One of those where I’d never bet on Cure, but it wouldn’t surprise me at all if he did pull it off.
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On April 05 2024 23:26 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2024 23:04 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 07:03 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 06:47 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 06:33 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 06:23 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 06:14 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 06:09 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 05:59 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 05:00 Vindicare605 wrote:
[quote]
Or you can actually watch the games and notice that the patch is having next to no actual impact on any of the matches involving Protoss.
The patch IS however having a VERY noticeable effect on TvT and a noticeable impact on TvZ.
Also it's hilarious that herO, Classic and Stats all advanced to the Ro8 before the patch even happened, when Protoss was "underpowered" and now according to guys like Nebuchad are only advancing to the Ro4 after winning the same number of Bo3's they won pre-patch because Observers got buffed and Widow Mines and Cyclones got nerfed. lol. So, in the real world Stats and Classic made the Ro8 by beating Dark, which is a PvZ, a match-up that protoss was already pretty good in in the last patch, it's PvT that is in the balance for what's going to happen in this one. In this PvZ, I also remember that Stats made the Ro8 because Dark got into a winning position after failing an all-in, but didn't bring an overseer with his army against mothership, a pretty violent mistake. I'm therefore not sure why you want me to watch the games? I just assumed you're not watching the games since if you actually ARE watching the games, then there's some logical disconnect happening somewhere that's causing you to credit the patch for Protoss advancing to the Ro4. I don't see how you can watch these last two groups and say that the patch is the reason Stats or herO advanced, especially when Stats didn't do any better in PvT than he would have anyway. Oh because herO won against Maru in a Bo3? Like that's never happened before lol. Or maybe the patch was the reason Byun built no Vikings against Classic who was making Carriers and Tempests in every game he played in Group A? Yea I'm not able to explain where the logical disconnect is coming in if you were actually watching the games. I don't watch the games no, I probably hate myself to an extent but not to that extent. Would you like to discuss the claim that this result by Stats is evidence pointing toward the validity of the claim that protoss players only lose because they all happen to suck? Stats is returning to form after coming back from the military. You HAVE to remember the DOZENS of times I've told this to you in the MULTIPLE threads we've argued about this. You refuse to acknowledge that Protoss players leaving for the military in Korea is a VERY BIG reason why Protoss has been struggling in the pro scene the past few years. Stats was gone, so he couldn't contribute to the Protoss winrate. Stats needed time to get back into form after being gone from the scene for 2 years, since it's not something you can just magically turn on and off. I've been saying since IEM Katowice that his form has been improving and I even said specifically during his IEM Katowice games that he was almost there, despite what his score looked like. Mate it's not that I don't remember what you say, it's that I disagree with you, and not only that I also don't really believe that you believe it yourself. Basically admitting you walk into threads with your fingers stuck in your ears. I even said back before Trap left to the military that Protoss was going to be in a very dark place for a while because all of the best Protoss players were gone to the military at the same time. When herO came back and got back into shape as fast as he did, I actually thought that the worst case scenario for Protoss had been averted because I expected Protoss to suffer worse for longer. That's why I've never been on board with this Protoss whine train the last couple years because the worst case scenario I imagined never actually came to pass. Although it does stink that Parting won't be coming back since he was one of the players I was hoping would bring Protoss back both in terms of wins and in terms of being an entertaining innovator. I'm not the only one who's been saying this about Protoss either. Not even close. I still don't think Protoss is ever going to catch Terran or Zerg's tournament winrate. That won't happen without a redesign to the race. But things will get better for them than it was when all of their best players weren't competing. Yeah a lot of people were pushing this narrative because they didn't like protoss and they wanted the balance to not change, so that protoss would keep losing and they could watch the match-ups they like instead of watching protosses. But they couldn't really admit to that, so instead they just pretended to believe that all protoss players happen to be bad and therefore it makes sense that they keep losing. I remember, I was there too. That's why I'm kind of happy that after the balance patches went through, protoss started performing better, as we've seen in the last two patches. In my eyes this showed that this absurd narrative, that protosses exist outside of balance somehow, is not supported by the facts. And then I entered this thread and saw the absurd claim that what's happening right now is evidence that people were right about protoss players being bad. That tickled me a little bit, so I commented. You can still believe your narrative (and again, I do not think you do), but you can't claim that these GSL results are evidence in favor of your narrative. They are very clearly not. You seriously are going to sit there and try and tell me that I waste my time posting shit to TeamLiquid that I don't actually believe. You're so incapable of coming up with any kind of logic, or argument against what I'm saying that the only thing you can do is say "nah you don't actually believe what you say." It's pathetic honestly. Oh and as for your GSL results, I just explained how all of the results we've seen (all 24 games worth lol) have had nothing or at the most VERY LITTLE to do with the patch and are a bigger result of the map pool update than anything else. But you're just going to do what you always do with that information. Ignore it, because it doesn't suit your narrative. You definitely waste your time posting on TL, yes. Like Fango, you claim both that protoss design makes it impossible for protosses to win the same amount as terran or zerg, but also that it's very important that protosses retired. Those are contradictory claims. .
No they are not. And this is something you NEVER seem to understand because you seemingly can't understand the concept that "balance" and "design" are two different words that mean two different things.
Until you are able to wrap your head around this VERY basic difference in language, you'll never be able to grasp the more complicated concepts.
Statement one is talking about the hypothetical scenario that even in a perfectly balanced game, Protoss is designed in such a way that it has a lower skill ceiling and a lower skill floor than the other 2 races. This means that given the same level of skill across all players, Protoss players are fundamentally limited from being able to express that skill at the highest level as consistently as players that play Zerg and Terran.
Try and wrap your mind around that statement.
Statement number 2, is the very NOT hypothetical scenario, of the best players that play Protoss are currently not playing the game so there is an actual measurable gap between the number of top skilled Protoss players and top players of Terran and Zerg.
The two statements have nothing to do with one another and are talking about two totally different things.
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On April 06 2024 02:02 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2024 23:26 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 23:04 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 07:03 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 06:47 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 06:33 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 06:23 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 06:14 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 06:09 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 05:59 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
So, in the real world Stats and Classic made the Ro8 by beating Dark, which is a PvZ, a match-up that protoss was already pretty good in in the last patch, it's PvT that is in the balance for what's going to happen in this one. In this PvZ, I also remember that Stats made the Ro8 because Dark got into a winning position after failing an all-in, but didn't bring an overseer with his army against mothership, a pretty violent mistake.
I'm therefore not sure why you want me to watch the games? I just assumed you're not watching the games since if you actually ARE watching the games, then there's some logical disconnect happening somewhere that's causing you to credit the patch for Protoss advancing to the Ro4. I don't see how you can watch these last two groups and say that the patch is the reason Stats or herO advanced, especially when Stats didn't do any better in PvT than he would have anyway. Oh because herO won against Maru in a Bo3? Like that's never happened before lol. Or maybe the patch was the reason Byun built no Vikings against Classic who was making Carriers and Tempests in every game he played in Group A? Yea I'm not able to explain where the logical disconnect is coming in if you were actually watching the games. I don't watch the games no, I probably hate myself to an extent but not to that extent. Would you like to discuss the claim that this result by Stats is evidence pointing toward the validity of the claim that protoss players only lose because they all happen to suck? Stats is returning to form after coming back from the military. You HAVE to remember the DOZENS of times I've told this to you in the MULTIPLE threads we've argued about this. You refuse to acknowledge that Protoss players leaving for the military in Korea is a VERY BIG reason why Protoss has been struggling in the pro scene the past few years. Stats was gone, so he couldn't contribute to the Protoss winrate. Stats needed time to get back into form after being gone from the scene for 2 years, since it's not something you can just magically turn on and off. I've been saying since IEM Katowice that his form has been improving and I even said specifically during his IEM Katowice games that he was almost there, despite what his score looked like. Mate it's not that I don't remember what you say, it's that I disagree with you, and not only that I also don't really believe that you believe it yourself. Basically admitting you walk into threads with your fingers stuck in your ears. I even said back before Trap left to the military that Protoss was going to be in a very dark place for a while because all of the best Protoss players were gone to the military at the same time. When herO came back and got back into shape as fast as he did, I actually thought that the worst case scenario for Protoss had been averted because I expected Protoss to suffer worse for longer. That's why I've never been on board with this Protoss whine train the last couple years because the worst case scenario I imagined never actually came to pass. Although it does stink that Parting won't be coming back since he was one of the players I was hoping would bring Protoss back both in terms of wins and in terms of being an entertaining innovator. I'm not the only one who's been saying this about Protoss either. Not even close. I still don't think Protoss is ever going to catch Terran or Zerg's tournament winrate. That won't happen without a redesign to the race. But things will get better for them than it was when all of their best players weren't competing. Yeah a lot of people were pushing this narrative because they didn't like protoss and they wanted the balance to not change, so that protoss would keep losing and they could watch the match-ups they like instead of watching protosses. But they couldn't really admit to that, so instead they just pretended to believe that all protoss players happen to be bad and therefore it makes sense that they keep losing. I remember, I was there too. That's why I'm kind of happy that after the balance patches went through, protoss started performing better, as we've seen in the last two patches. In my eyes this showed that this absurd narrative, that protosses exist outside of balance somehow, is not supported by the facts. And then I entered this thread and saw the absurd claim that what's happening right now is evidence that people were right about protoss players being bad. That tickled me a little bit, so I commented. You can still believe your narrative (and again, I do not think you do), but you can't claim that these GSL results are evidence in favor of your narrative. They are very clearly not. You seriously are going to sit there and try and tell me that I waste my time posting shit to TeamLiquid that I don't actually believe. You're so incapable of coming up with any kind of logic, or argument against what I'm saying that the only thing you can do is say "nah you don't actually believe what you say." It's pathetic honestly. Oh and as for your GSL results, I just explained how all of the results we've seen (all 24 games worth lol) have had nothing or at the most VERY LITTLE to do with the patch and are a bigger result of the map pool update than anything else. But you're just going to do what you always do with that information. Ignore it, because it doesn't suit your narrative. You definitely waste your time posting on TL, yes. Like Fango, you claim both that protoss design makes it impossible for protosses to win the same amount as terran or zerg, but also that it's very important that protosses retired. Those are contradictory claims. . No they are not. And this is something you NEVER seem to understand because you seemingly can't understand the concept that "balance" and "design" are two different words that mean two different things. Until you are able to wrap your head around this VERY basic difference in language, you'll never be able to grasp the more complicated concepts. Statement one is talking about the hypothetical scenario that even in a perfectly balanced game, Protoss is designed in such a way that it has a lower skill ceiling and a lower skill floor than the other 2 races. This means that given the same level of skill across all players, Protoss players are fundamentally limited from being able to express that skill at the highest level as consistently as players that play Zerg and Terran. Try and wrap your mind around that statement. Statement number 2, is the very NOT hypothetical scenario, of the best players that play Protoss are currently not playing the game so there is an actual measurable gap between the number of top skilled Protoss players and top players of Terran and Zerg. The two statements have nothing to do with one another and are talking about two totally different things.
I understood all of that very easily. Those are contradictory claims.
It can't be important that Player X has retired if Player X's race can't compete in a balanced game due to its design. If the design of a race makes it so that they can't compete in a balanced game, then that affects everyone who plays this race, including Player X.
The only reason why it would matter that Player X has retired is if he would be having great results otherwise. And if he would be having great results otherwise, then he wouldn't be hindered by the race's design.
Either protoss design affects everyone who plays protoss and causes them to lose more in a balanced game, which means that the retired players are affected too and claim b is irrelevant. Or it matters that protoss players have retired, which means that they would have been winning with their race in a balanced game if they hadn't, and claim a is wrong.
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great day of matches. Stats stole the show imo, what a solid play he showed us. pretty hyped for the next round!
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On April 05 2024 23:26 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2024 23:04 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 07:03 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 06:47 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 06:33 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 06:23 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 06:14 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 06:09 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 05:59 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 05:00 Vindicare605 wrote:
[quote]
Or you can actually watch the games and notice that the patch is having next to no actual impact on any of the matches involving Protoss.
The patch IS however having a VERY noticeable effect on TvT and a noticeable impact on TvZ.
Also it's hilarious that herO, Classic and Stats all advanced to the Ro8 before the patch even happened, when Protoss was "underpowered" and now according to guys like Nebuchad are only advancing to the Ro4 after winning the same number of Bo3's they won pre-patch because Observers got buffed and Widow Mines and Cyclones got nerfed. lol. So, in the real world Stats and Classic made the Ro8 by beating Dark, which is a PvZ, a match-up that protoss was already pretty good in in the last patch, it's PvT that is in the balance for what's going to happen in this one. In this PvZ, I also remember that Stats made the Ro8 because Dark got into a winning position after failing an all-in, but didn't bring an overseer with his army against mothership, a pretty violent mistake. I'm therefore not sure why you want me to watch the games? I just assumed you're not watching the games since if you actually ARE watching the games, then there's some logical disconnect happening somewhere that's causing you to credit the patch for Protoss advancing to the Ro4. I don't see how you can watch these last two groups and say that the patch is the reason Stats or herO advanced, especially when Stats didn't do any better in PvT than he would have anyway. Oh because herO won against Maru in a Bo3? Like that's never happened before lol. Or maybe the patch was the reason Byun built no Vikings against Classic who was making Carriers and Tempests in every game he played in Group A? Yea I'm not able to explain where the logical disconnect is coming in if you were actually watching the games. I don't watch the games no, I probably hate myself to an extent but not to that extent. Would you like to discuss the claim that this result by Stats is evidence pointing toward the validity of the claim that protoss players only lose because they all happen to suck? Stats is returning to form after coming back from the military. You HAVE to remember the DOZENS of times I've told this to you in the MULTIPLE threads we've argued about this. You refuse to acknowledge that Protoss players leaving for the military in Korea is a VERY BIG reason why Protoss has been struggling in the pro scene the past few years. Stats was gone, so he couldn't contribute to the Protoss winrate. Stats needed time to get back into form after being gone from the scene for 2 years, since it's not something you can just magically turn on and off. I've been saying since IEM Katowice that his form has been improving and I even said specifically during his IEM Katowice games that he was almost there, despite what his score looked like. Mate it's not that I don't remember what you say, it's that I disagree with you, and not only that I also don't really believe that you believe it yourself. Basically admitting you walk into threads with your fingers stuck in your ears. I even said back before Trap left to the military that Protoss was going to be in a very dark place for a while because all of the best Protoss players were gone to the military at the same time. When herO came back and got back into shape as fast as he did, I actually thought that the worst case scenario for Protoss had been averted because I expected Protoss to suffer worse for longer. That's why I've never been on board with this Protoss whine train the last couple years because the worst case scenario I imagined never actually came to pass. Although it does stink that Parting won't be coming back since he was one of the players I was hoping would bring Protoss back both in terms of wins and in terms of being an entertaining innovator. I'm not the only one who's been saying this about Protoss either. Not even close. I still don't think Protoss is ever going to catch Terran or Zerg's tournament winrate. That won't happen without a redesign to the race. But things will get better for them than it was when all of their best players weren't competing. Yeah a lot of people were pushing this narrative because they didn't like protoss and they wanted the balance to not change, so that protoss would keep losing and they could watch the match-ups they like instead of watching protosses. But they couldn't really admit to that, so instead they just pretended to believe that all protoss players happen to be bad and therefore it makes sense that they keep losing. I remember, I was there too. That's why I'm kind of happy that after the balance patches went through, protoss started performing better, as we've seen in the last two patches. In my eyes this showed that this absurd narrative, that protosses exist outside of balance somehow, is not supported by the facts. And then I entered this thread and saw the absurd claim that what's happening right now is evidence that people were right about protoss players being bad. That tickled me a little bit, so I commented. You can still believe your narrative (and again, I do not think you do), but you can't claim that these GSL results are evidence in favor of your narrative. They are very clearly not. You seriously are going to sit there and try and tell me that I waste my time posting shit to TeamLiquid that I don't actually believe. You're so incapable of coming up with any kind of logic, or argument against what I'm saying that the only thing you can do is say "nah you don't actually believe what you say." It's pathetic honestly. Oh and as for your GSL results, I just explained how all of the results we've seen (all 24 games worth lol) have had nothing or at the most VERY LITTLE to do with the patch and are a bigger result of the map pool update than anything else. But you're just going to do what you always do with that information. Ignore it, because it doesn't suit your narrative. Like Fango, you claim both that protoss design makes it impossible for protosses to win the same amount as terran or zerg, but also that it's very important that protosses retired. Those are contradictory claims.
Those are not contradictory claims.
I have said extremely clearly that they are both potentially contributing factors to the lack of protoss championships. You can't ignore that LotV has some issues, but you also can''t ignore that the top 6 protoss players retired, the next best refuses to play on LAN.
Put it this way, the reason for the lack of protoss championships could be down to...
A) Design flaws that limit skill expression
B) Every good protoss player retiring or refusing to play LAN
C) A combination of both.
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On April 07 2024 21:36 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2024 23:26 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 23:04 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 07:03 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 06:47 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 06:33 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 06:23 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 06:14 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 06:09 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 05:59 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
So, in the real world Stats and Classic made the Ro8 by beating Dark, which is a PvZ, a match-up that protoss was already pretty good in in the last patch, it's PvT that is in the balance for what's going to happen in this one. In this PvZ, I also remember that Stats made the Ro8 because Dark got into a winning position after failing an all-in, but didn't bring an overseer with his army against mothership, a pretty violent mistake.
I'm therefore not sure why you want me to watch the games? I just assumed you're not watching the games since if you actually ARE watching the games, then there's some logical disconnect happening somewhere that's causing you to credit the patch for Protoss advancing to the Ro4. I don't see how you can watch these last two groups and say that the patch is the reason Stats or herO advanced, especially when Stats didn't do any better in PvT than he would have anyway. Oh because herO won against Maru in a Bo3? Like that's never happened before lol. Or maybe the patch was the reason Byun built no Vikings against Classic who was making Carriers and Tempests in every game he played in Group A? Yea I'm not able to explain where the logical disconnect is coming in if you were actually watching the games. I don't watch the games no, I probably hate myself to an extent but not to that extent. Would you like to discuss the claim that this result by Stats is evidence pointing toward the validity of the claim that protoss players only lose because they all happen to suck? Stats is returning to form after coming back from the military. You HAVE to remember the DOZENS of times I've told this to you in the MULTIPLE threads we've argued about this. You refuse to acknowledge that Protoss players leaving for the military in Korea is a VERY BIG reason why Protoss has been struggling in the pro scene the past few years. Stats was gone, so he couldn't contribute to the Protoss winrate. Stats needed time to get back into form after being gone from the scene for 2 years, since it's not something you can just magically turn on and off. I've been saying since IEM Katowice that his form has been improving and I even said specifically during his IEM Katowice games that he was almost there, despite what his score looked like. Mate it's not that I don't remember what you say, it's that I disagree with you, and not only that I also don't really believe that you believe it yourself. Basically admitting you walk into threads with your fingers stuck in your ears. I even said back before Trap left to the military that Protoss was going to be in a very dark place for a while because all of the best Protoss players were gone to the military at the same time. When herO came back and got back into shape as fast as he did, I actually thought that the worst case scenario for Protoss had been averted because I expected Protoss to suffer worse for longer. That's why I've never been on board with this Protoss whine train the last couple years because the worst case scenario I imagined never actually came to pass. Although it does stink that Parting won't be coming back since he was one of the players I was hoping would bring Protoss back both in terms of wins and in terms of being an entertaining innovator. I'm not the only one who's been saying this about Protoss either. Not even close. I still don't think Protoss is ever going to catch Terran or Zerg's tournament winrate. That won't happen without a redesign to the race. But things will get better for them than it was when all of their best players weren't competing. Yeah a lot of people were pushing this narrative because they didn't like protoss and they wanted the balance to not change, so that protoss would keep losing and they could watch the match-ups they like instead of watching protosses. But they couldn't really admit to that, so instead they just pretended to believe that all protoss players happen to be bad and therefore it makes sense that they keep losing. I remember, I was there too. That's why I'm kind of happy that after the balance patches went through, protoss started performing better, as we've seen in the last two patches. In my eyes this showed that this absurd narrative, that protosses exist outside of balance somehow, is not supported by the facts. And then I entered this thread and saw the absurd claim that what's happening right now is evidence that people were right about protoss players being bad. That tickled me a little bit, so I commented. You can still believe your narrative (and again, I do not think you do), but you can't claim that these GSL results are evidence in favor of your narrative. They are very clearly not. You seriously are going to sit there and try and tell me that I waste my time posting shit to TeamLiquid that I don't actually believe. You're so incapable of coming up with any kind of logic, or argument against what I'm saying that the only thing you can do is say "nah you don't actually believe what you say." It's pathetic honestly. Oh and as for your GSL results, I just explained how all of the results we've seen (all 24 games worth lol) have had nothing or at the most VERY LITTLE to do with the patch and are a bigger result of the map pool update than anything else. But you're just going to do what you always do with that information. Ignore it, because it doesn't suit your narrative. Like Fango, you claim both that protoss design makes it impossible for protosses to win the same amount as terran or zerg, but also that it's very important that protosses retired. Those are contradictory claims. Those are not contradictory claims. I have said extremely clearly that they are both potentially contributing factors to the lack of protoss championships. You can't ignore that LotV has some issues, but you also can''t ignore that the top 6 protoss players retired, the next best refuses to play on LAN. Put it this way, the reason for the lack of protoss championships could be down to... A) Design flaws that limit skill expression B) Every good protoss player retiring or refusing to play LAN C) A combination of both.
MaxPax has yet to win an non-weekly online tournament, the fact that he doesn't play offline is irrelevant to protoss results
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Northern Ireland24995 Posts
On April 07 2024 22:00 Durnuu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2024 21:36 Fango wrote:On April 05 2024 23:26 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 23:04 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 07:03 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 06:47 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 06:33 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 06:23 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 06:14 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 06:09 Vindicare605 wrote:
[quote]
I just assumed you're not watching the games since if you actually ARE watching the games, then there's some logical disconnect happening somewhere that's causing you to credit the patch for Protoss advancing to the Ro4.
I don't see how you can watch these last two groups and say that the patch is the reason Stats or herO advanced, especially when Stats didn't do any better in PvT than he would have anyway.
Oh because herO won against Maru in a Bo3? Like that's never happened before lol. Or maybe the patch was the reason Byun built no Vikings against Classic who was making Carriers and Tempests in every game he played in Group A?
Yea I'm not able to explain where the logical disconnect is coming in if you were actually watching the games. I don't watch the games no, I probably hate myself to an extent but not to that extent. Would you like to discuss the claim that this result by Stats is evidence pointing toward the validity of the claim that protoss players only lose because they all happen to suck? Stats is returning to form after coming back from the military. You HAVE to remember the DOZENS of times I've told this to you in the MULTIPLE threads we've argued about this. You refuse to acknowledge that Protoss players leaving for the military in Korea is a VERY BIG reason why Protoss has been struggling in the pro scene the past few years. Stats was gone, so he couldn't contribute to the Protoss winrate. Stats needed time to get back into form after being gone from the scene for 2 years, since it's not something you can just magically turn on and off. I've been saying since IEM Katowice that his form has been improving and I even said specifically during his IEM Katowice games that he was almost there, despite what his score looked like. Mate it's not that I don't remember what you say, it's that I disagree with you, and not only that I also don't really believe that you believe it yourself. Basically admitting you walk into threads with your fingers stuck in your ears. I even said back before Trap left to the military that Protoss was going to be in a very dark place for a while because all of the best Protoss players were gone to the military at the same time. When herO came back and got back into shape as fast as he did, I actually thought that the worst case scenario for Protoss had been averted because I expected Protoss to suffer worse for longer. That's why I've never been on board with this Protoss whine train the last couple years because the worst case scenario I imagined never actually came to pass. Although it does stink that Parting won't be coming back since he was one of the players I was hoping would bring Protoss back both in terms of wins and in terms of being an entertaining innovator. I'm not the only one who's been saying this about Protoss either. Not even close. I still don't think Protoss is ever going to catch Terran or Zerg's tournament winrate. That won't happen without a redesign to the race. But things will get better for them than it was when all of their best players weren't competing. Yeah a lot of people were pushing this narrative because they didn't like protoss and they wanted the balance to not change, so that protoss would keep losing and they could watch the match-ups they like instead of watching protosses. But they couldn't really admit to that, so instead they just pretended to believe that all protoss players happen to be bad and therefore it makes sense that they keep losing. I remember, I was there too. That's why I'm kind of happy that after the balance patches went through, protoss started performing better, as we've seen in the last two patches. In my eyes this showed that this absurd narrative, that protosses exist outside of balance somehow, is not supported by the facts. And then I entered this thread and saw the absurd claim that what's happening right now is evidence that people were right about protoss players being bad. That tickled me a little bit, so I commented. You can still believe your narrative (and again, I do not think you do), but you can't claim that these GSL results are evidence in favor of your narrative. They are very clearly not. You seriously are going to sit there and try and tell me that I waste my time posting shit to TeamLiquid that I don't actually believe. You're so incapable of coming up with any kind of logic, or argument against what I'm saying that the only thing you can do is say "nah you don't actually believe what you say." It's pathetic honestly. Oh and as for your GSL results, I just explained how all of the results we've seen (all 24 games worth lol) have had nothing or at the most VERY LITTLE to do with the patch and are a bigger result of the map pool update than anything else. But you're just going to do what you always do with that information. Ignore it, because it doesn't suit your narrative. Like Fango, you claim both that protoss design makes it impossible for protosses to win the same amount as terran or zerg, but also that it's very important that protosses retired. Those are contradictory claims. Those are not contradictory claims. I have said extremely clearly that they are both potentially contributing factors to the lack of protoss championships. You can't ignore that LotV has some issues, but you also can''t ignore that the top 6 protoss players retired, the next best refuses to play on LAN. Put it this way, the reason for the lack of protoss championships could be down to... A) Design flaws that limit skill expression B) Every good protoss player retiring or refusing to play LAN C) A combination of both. MaxPax has yet to win an non-weekly online tournament, the fact that he doesn't play offline is irrelevant to protoss results
Yeah, I wouldn’t go so far to say irrelevant but I can’t see there being a massive swing either if he was competing offline.
Indeed, the race might actually do worse if he was given how good he is at PvP. Latent skill wise he’s certainly up there, but he’s yet to really exhibit that killer tournament instinct.
Let’s say he hypothetically takes out herO early on in a tournament. Is your money on MaxPax or herO to make a deep run in a big offline tournament? I know where mine would be going
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On April 07 2024 21:36 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2024 23:26 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 23:04 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 07:03 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 06:47 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 06:33 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 06:23 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 06:14 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 06:09 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 05:59 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
So, in the real world Stats and Classic made the Ro8 by beating Dark, which is a PvZ, a match-up that protoss was already pretty good in in the last patch, it's PvT that is in the balance for what's going to happen in this one. In this PvZ, I also remember that Stats made the Ro8 because Dark got into a winning position after failing an all-in, but didn't bring an overseer with his army against mothership, a pretty violent mistake.
I'm therefore not sure why you want me to watch the games? I just assumed you're not watching the games since if you actually ARE watching the games, then there's some logical disconnect happening somewhere that's causing you to credit the patch for Protoss advancing to the Ro4. I don't see how you can watch these last two groups and say that the patch is the reason Stats or herO advanced, especially when Stats didn't do any better in PvT than he would have anyway. Oh because herO won against Maru in a Bo3? Like that's never happened before lol. Or maybe the patch was the reason Byun built no Vikings against Classic who was making Carriers and Tempests in every game he played in Group A? Yea I'm not able to explain where the logical disconnect is coming in if you were actually watching the games. I don't watch the games no, I probably hate myself to an extent but not to that extent. Would you like to discuss the claim that this result by Stats is evidence pointing toward the validity of the claim that protoss players only lose because they all happen to suck? Stats is returning to form after coming back from the military. You HAVE to remember the DOZENS of times I've told this to you in the MULTIPLE threads we've argued about this. You refuse to acknowledge that Protoss players leaving for the military in Korea is a VERY BIG reason why Protoss has been struggling in the pro scene the past few years. Stats was gone, so he couldn't contribute to the Protoss winrate. Stats needed time to get back into form after being gone from the scene for 2 years, since it's not something you can just magically turn on and off. I've been saying since IEM Katowice that his form has been improving and I even said specifically during his IEM Katowice games that he was almost there, despite what his score looked like. Mate it's not that I don't remember what you say, it's that I disagree with you, and not only that I also don't really believe that you believe it yourself. Basically admitting you walk into threads with your fingers stuck in your ears. I even said back before Trap left to the military that Protoss was going to be in a very dark place for a while because all of the best Protoss players were gone to the military at the same time. When herO came back and got back into shape as fast as he did, I actually thought that the worst case scenario for Protoss had been averted because I expected Protoss to suffer worse for longer. That's why I've never been on board with this Protoss whine train the last couple years because the worst case scenario I imagined never actually came to pass. Although it does stink that Parting won't be coming back since he was one of the players I was hoping would bring Protoss back both in terms of wins and in terms of being an entertaining innovator. I'm not the only one who's been saying this about Protoss either. Not even close. I still don't think Protoss is ever going to catch Terran or Zerg's tournament winrate. That won't happen without a redesign to the race. But things will get better for them than it was when all of their best players weren't competing. Yeah a lot of people were pushing this narrative because they didn't like protoss and they wanted the balance to not change, so that protoss would keep losing and they could watch the match-ups they like instead of watching protosses. But they couldn't really admit to that, so instead they just pretended to believe that all protoss players happen to be bad and therefore it makes sense that they keep losing. I remember, I was there too. That's why I'm kind of happy that after the balance patches went through, protoss started performing better, as we've seen in the last two patches. In my eyes this showed that this absurd narrative, that protosses exist outside of balance somehow, is not supported by the facts. And then I entered this thread and saw the absurd claim that what's happening right now is evidence that people were right about protoss players being bad. That tickled me a little bit, so I commented. You can still believe your narrative (and again, I do not think you do), but you can't claim that these GSL results are evidence in favor of your narrative. They are very clearly not. You seriously are going to sit there and try and tell me that I waste my time posting shit to TeamLiquid that I don't actually believe. You're so incapable of coming up with any kind of logic, or argument against what I'm saying that the only thing you can do is say "nah you don't actually believe what you say." It's pathetic honestly. Oh and as for your GSL results, I just explained how all of the results we've seen (all 24 games worth lol) have had nothing or at the most VERY LITTLE to do with the patch and are a bigger result of the map pool update than anything else. But you're just going to do what you always do with that information. Ignore it, because it doesn't suit your narrative. Like Fango, you claim both that protoss design makes it impossible for protosses to win the same amount as terran or zerg, but also that it's very important that protosses retired. Those are contradictory claims. Those are not contradictory claims. I have said extremely clearly that they are both potentially contributing factors to the lack of protoss championships. You can't ignore that LotV has some issues, but you also can''t ignore that the top 6 protoss players retired, the next best refuses to play on LAN. Put it this way, the reason for the lack of protoss championships could be down to... A) Design flaws that limit skill expression B) Every good protoss player retiring or refusing to play LAN C) A combination of both.
If those good protoss players hadn't retired, what would their results be?
Unless nerves are in play Maxpax would definitely make top 2 protoss in most LANs, you guys are coping.
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On April 07 2024 23:29 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2024 21:36 Fango wrote:On April 05 2024 23:26 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 23:04 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 07:03 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 06:47 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 06:33 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 06:23 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 06:14 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 06:09 Vindicare605 wrote:
[quote]
I just assumed you're not watching the games since if you actually ARE watching the games, then there's some logical disconnect happening somewhere that's causing you to credit the patch for Protoss advancing to the Ro4.
I don't see how you can watch these last two groups and say that the patch is the reason Stats or herO advanced, especially when Stats didn't do any better in PvT than he would have anyway.
Oh because herO won against Maru in a Bo3? Like that's never happened before lol. Or maybe the patch was the reason Byun built no Vikings against Classic who was making Carriers and Tempests in every game he played in Group A?
Yea I'm not able to explain where the logical disconnect is coming in if you were actually watching the games. I don't watch the games no, I probably hate myself to an extent but not to that extent. Would you like to discuss the claim that this result by Stats is evidence pointing toward the validity of the claim that protoss players only lose because they all happen to suck? Stats is returning to form after coming back from the military. You HAVE to remember the DOZENS of times I've told this to you in the MULTIPLE threads we've argued about this. You refuse to acknowledge that Protoss players leaving for the military in Korea is a VERY BIG reason why Protoss has been struggling in the pro scene the past few years. Stats was gone, so he couldn't contribute to the Protoss winrate. Stats needed time to get back into form after being gone from the scene for 2 years, since it's not something you can just magically turn on and off. I've been saying since IEM Katowice that his form has been improving and I even said specifically during his IEM Katowice games that he was almost there, despite what his score looked like. Mate it's not that I don't remember what you say, it's that I disagree with you, and not only that I also don't really believe that you believe it yourself. Basically admitting you walk into threads with your fingers stuck in your ears. I even said back before Trap left to the military that Protoss was going to be in a very dark place for a while because all of the best Protoss players were gone to the military at the same time. When herO came back and got back into shape as fast as he did, I actually thought that the worst case scenario for Protoss had been averted because I expected Protoss to suffer worse for longer. That's why I've never been on board with this Protoss whine train the last couple years because the worst case scenario I imagined never actually came to pass. Although it does stink that Parting won't be coming back since he was one of the players I was hoping would bring Protoss back both in terms of wins and in terms of being an entertaining innovator. I'm not the only one who's been saying this about Protoss either. Not even close. I still don't think Protoss is ever going to catch Terran or Zerg's tournament winrate. That won't happen without a redesign to the race. But things will get better for them than it was when all of their best players weren't competing. Yeah a lot of people were pushing this narrative because they didn't like protoss and they wanted the balance to not change, so that protoss would keep losing and they could watch the match-ups they like instead of watching protosses. But they couldn't really admit to that, so instead they just pretended to believe that all protoss players happen to be bad and therefore it makes sense that they keep losing. I remember, I was there too. That's why I'm kind of happy that after the balance patches went through, protoss started performing better, as we've seen in the last two patches. In my eyes this showed that this absurd narrative, that protosses exist outside of balance somehow, is not supported by the facts. And then I entered this thread and saw the absurd claim that what's happening right now is evidence that people were right about protoss players being bad. That tickled me a little bit, so I commented. You can still believe your narrative (and again, I do not think you do), but you can't claim that these GSL results are evidence in favor of your narrative. They are very clearly not. You seriously are going to sit there and try and tell me that I waste my time posting shit to TeamLiquid that I don't actually believe. You're so incapable of coming up with any kind of logic, or argument against what I'm saying that the only thing you can do is say "nah you don't actually believe what you say." It's pathetic honestly. Oh and as for your GSL results, I just explained how all of the results we've seen (all 24 games worth lol) have had nothing or at the most VERY LITTLE to do with the patch and are a bigger result of the map pool update than anything else. But you're just going to do what you always do with that information. Ignore it, because it doesn't suit your narrative. Like Fango, you claim both that protoss design makes it impossible for protosses to win the same amount as terran or zerg, but also that it's very important that protosses retired. Those are contradictory claims. Those are not contradictory claims. I have said extremely clearly that they are both potentially contributing factors to the lack of protoss championships. You can't ignore that LotV has some issues, but you also can''t ignore that the top 6 protoss players retired, the next best refuses to play on LAN. Put it this way, the reason for the lack of protoss championships could be down to... A) Design flaws that limit skill expression B) Every good protoss player retiring or refusing to play LAN C) A combination of both. If those good protoss players hadn't retired, what would their results be? Unless nerves are in play Maxpax would definitely make top 2 protoss in most LANs, you guys are coping.
How long did Cure look like one of the best players in the world online before he finally lived up to that potential in a big offline event again? I highly doubt he had nerve issues for all that time. Offline is different, the top players just play better in big offline events than small online ones. They prioritize them more and elevate their level of play.
Maxpax would do horribly in his first few offline events due to nerves but even after that I wouldn't bet on him over guys like Classic, showtime, stats (if this upwards trend isn't a fluke), for a very long time. And certainly not herO who is at a similar level even looking at online only.
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On April 07 2024 23:29 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2024 21:36 Fango wrote:On April 05 2024 23:26 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 23:04 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 07:03 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 06:47 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 06:33 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 06:23 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 06:14 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 06:09 Vindicare605 wrote:
[quote]
I just assumed you're not watching the games since if you actually ARE watching the games, then there's some logical disconnect happening somewhere that's causing you to credit the patch for Protoss advancing to the Ro4.
I don't see how you can watch these last two groups and say that the patch is the reason Stats or herO advanced, especially when Stats didn't do any better in PvT than he would have anyway.
Oh because herO won against Maru in a Bo3? Like that's never happened before lol. Or maybe the patch was the reason Byun built no Vikings against Classic who was making Carriers and Tempests in every game he played in Group A?
Yea I'm not able to explain where the logical disconnect is coming in if you were actually watching the games. I don't watch the games no, I probably hate myself to an extent but not to that extent. Would you like to discuss the claim that this result by Stats is evidence pointing toward the validity of the claim that protoss players only lose because they all happen to suck? Stats is returning to form after coming back from the military. You HAVE to remember the DOZENS of times I've told this to you in the MULTIPLE threads we've argued about this. You refuse to acknowledge that Protoss players leaving for the military in Korea is a VERY BIG reason why Protoss has been struggling in the pro scene the past few years. Stats was gone, so he couldn't contribute to the Protoss winrate. Stats needed time to get back into form after being gone from the scene for 2 years, since it's not something you can just magically turn on and off. I've been saying since IEM Katowice that his form has been improving and I even said specifically during his IEM Katowice games that he was almost there, despite what his score looked like. Mate it's not that I don't remember what you say, it's that I disagree with you, and not only that I also don't really believe that you believe it yourself. Basically admitting you walk into threads with your fingers stuck in your ears. I even said back before Trap left to the military that Protoss was going to be in a very dark place for a while because all of the best Protoss players were gone to the military at the same time. When herO came back and got back into shape as fast as he did, I actually thought that the worst case scenario for Protoss had been averted because I expected Protoss to suffer worse for longer. That's why I've never been on board with this Protoss whine train the last couple years because the worst case scenario I imagined never actually came to pass. Although it does stink that Parting won't be coming back since he was one of the players I was hoping would bring Protoss back both in terms of wins and in terms of being an entertaining innovator. I'm not the only one who's been saying this about Protoss either. Not even close. I still don't think Protoss is ever going to catch Terran or Zerg's tournament winrate. That won't happen without a redesign to the race. But things will get better for them than it was when all of their best players weren't competing. Yeah a lot of people were pushing this narrative because they didn't like protoss and they wanted the balance to not change, so that protoss would keep losing and they could watch the match-ups they like instead of watching protosses. But they couldn't really admit to that, so instead they just pretended to believe that all protoss players happen to be bad and therefore it makes sense that they keep losing. I remember, I was there too. That's why I'm kind of happy that after the balance patches went through, protoss started performing better, as we've seen in the last two patches. In my eyes this showed that this absurd narrative, that protosses exist outside of balance somehow, is not supported by the facts. And then I entered this thread and saw the absurd claim that what's happening right now is evidence that people were right about protoss players being bad. That tickled me a little bit, so I commented. You can still believe your narrative (and again, I do not think you do), but you can't claim that these GSL results are evidence in favor of your narrative. They are very clearly not. You seriously are going to sit there and try and tell me that I waste my time posting shit to TeamLiquid that I don't actually believe. You're so incapable of coming up with any kind of logic, or argument against what I'm saying that the only thing you can do is say "nah you don't actually believe what you say." It's pathetic honestly. Oh and as for your GSL results, I just explained how all of the results we've seen (all 24 games worth lol) have had nothing or at the most VERY LITTLE to do with the patch and are a bigger result of the map pool update than anything else. But you're just going to do what you always do with that information. Ignore it, because it doesn't suit your narrative. Like Fango, you claim both that protoss design makes it impossible for protosses to win the same amount as terran or zerg, but also that it's very important that protosses retired. Those are contradictory claims. Those are not contradictory claims. I have said extremely clearly that they are both potentially contributing factors to the lack of protoss championships. You can't ignore that LotV has some issues, but you also can''t ignore that the top 6 protoss players retired, the next best refuses to play on LAN. Put it this way, the reason for the lack of protoss championships could be down to... A) Design flaws that limit skill expression B) Every good protoss player retiring or refusing to play LAN C) A combination of both. If those good protoss players hadn't retired, what would their results be? Unless nerves are in play Maxpax would definitely make top 2 protoss in most LANs, you guys are coping.
Trap would be a consistent Top 4/8 in most tournament, Parting would also be a consistent top 8 player. Zest can bust out a strong run at anytime to reach the Final. Zoun is also very solid and could get top 8 as well.
We just saw what Classic and Stats are doing after getting back in form. I would expect the same performance from the other top Protoss player who had retired/gone to military service.
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On April 08 2024 12:18 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2024 23:29 Nebuchad wrote:On April 07 2024 21:36 Fango wrote:On April 05 2024 23:26 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 23:04 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 07:03 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 06:47 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 06:33 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 06:23 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 06:14 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
I don't watch the games no, I probably hate myself to an extent but not to that extent.
Would you like to discuss the claim that this result by Stats is evidence pointing toward the validity of the claim that protoss players only lose because they all happen to suck? Stats is returning to form after coming back from the military. You HAVE to remember the DOZENS of times I've told this to you in the MULTIPLE threads we've argued about this. You refuse to acknowledge that Protoss players leaving for the military in Korea is a VERY BIG reason why Protoss has been struggling in the pro scene the past few years. Stats was gone, so he couldn't contribute to the Protoss winrate. Stats needed time to get back into form after being gone from the scene for 2 years, since it's not something you can just magically turn on and off. I've been saying since IEM Katowice that his form has been improving and I even said specifically during his IEM Katowice games that he was almost there, despite what his score looked like. Mate it's not that I don't remember what you say, it's that I disagree with you, and not only that I also don't really believe that you believe it yourself. Basically admitting you walk into threads with your fingers stuck in your ears. I even said back before Trap left to the military that Protoss was going to be in a very dark place for a while because all of the best Protoss players were gone to the military at the same time. When herO came back and got back into shape as fast as he did, I actually thought that the worst case scenario for Protoss had been averted because I expected Protoss to suffer worse for longer. That's why I've never been on board with this Protoss whine train the last couple years because the worst case scenario I imagined never actually came to pass. Although it does stink that Parting won't be coming back since he was one of the players I was hoping would bring Protoss back both in terms of wins and in terms of being an entertaining innovator. I'm not the only one who's been saying this about Protoss either. Not even close. I still don't think Protoss is ever going to catch Terran or Zerg's tournament winrate. That won't happen without a redesign to the race. But things will get better for them than it was when all of their best players weren't competing. Yeah a lot of people were pushing this narrative because they didn't like protoss and they wanted the balance to not change, so that protoss would keep losing and they could watch the match-ups they like instead of watching protosses. But they couldn't really admit to that, so instead they just pretended to believe that all protoss players happen to be bad and therefore it makes sense that they keep losing. I remember, I was there too. That's why I'm kind of happy that after the balance patches went through, protoss started performing better, as we've seen in the last two patches. In my eyes this showed that this absurd narrative, that protosses exist outside of balance somehow, is not supported by the facts. And then I entered this thread and saw the absurd claim that what's happening right now is evidence that people were right about protoss players being bad. That tickled me a little bit, so I commented. You can still believe your narrative (and again, I do not think you do), but you can't claim that these GSL results are evidence in favor of your narrative. They are very clearly not. You seriously are going to sit there and try and tell me that I waste my time posting shit to TeamLiquid that I don't actually believe. You're so incapable of coming up with any kind of logic, or argument against what I'm saying that the only thing you can do is say "nah you don't actually believe what you say." It's pathetic honestly. Oh and as for your GSL results, I just explained how all of the results we've seen (all 24 games worth lol) have had nothing or at the most VERY LITTLE to do with the patch and are a bigger result of the map pool update than anything else. But you're just going to do what you always do with that information. Ignore it, because it doesn't suit your narrative. Like Fango, you claim both that protoss design makes it impossible for protosses to win the same amount as terran or zerg, but also that it's very important that protosses retired. Those are contradictory claims. Those are not contradictory claims. I have said extremely clearly that they are both potentially contributing factors to the lack of protoss championships. You can't ignore that LotV has some issues, but you also can''t ignore that the top 6 protoss players retired, the next best refuses to play on LAN. Put it this way, the reason for the lack of protoss championships could be down to... A) Design flaws that limit skill expression B) Every good protoss player retiring or refusing to play LAN C) A combination of both. If those good protoss players hadn't retired, what would their results be? Unless nerves are in play Maxpax would definitely make top 2 protoss in most LANs, you guys are coping. Trap would be a consistent Top 4/8 in most tournament, Parting would also be a consistent top 8 player. Zest can bust out a strong run at anytime to reach the Final. Zoun is also very solid and could get top 8 as well. We just saw what Classic and Stats are doing after getting back in form. I would expect the same performance from the other top Protoss player who had retired/gone to military service.
So nothing different from what the protoss players who haven't retired are doing.
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Northern Ireland24995 Posts
On April 07 2024 23:29 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2024 21:36 Fango wrote:On April 05 2024 23:26 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 23:04 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 07:03 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 06:47 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 06:33 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 06:23 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 06:14 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 06:09 Vindicare605 wrote:
[quote]
I just assumed you're not watching the games since if you actually ARE watching the games, then there's some logical disconnect happening somewhere that's causing you to credit the patch for Protoss advancing to the Ro4.
I don't see how you can watch these last two groups and say that the patch is the reason Stats or herO advanced, especially when Stats didn't do any better in PvT than he would have anyway.
Oh because herO won against Maru in a Bo3? Like that's never happened before lol. Or maybe the patch was the reason Byun built no Vikings against Classic who was making Carriers and Tempests in every game he played in Group A?
Yea I'm not able to explain where the logical disconnect is coming in if you were actually watching the games. I don't watch the games no, I probably hate myself to an extent but not to that extent. Would you like to discuss the claim that this result by Stats is evidence pointing toward the validity of the claim that protoss players only lose because they all happen to suck? Stats is returning to form after coming back from the military. You HAVE to remember the DOZENS of times I've told this to you in the MULTIPLE threads we've argued about this. You refuse to acknowledge that Protoss players leaving for the military in Korea is a VERY BIG reason why Protoss has been struggling in the pro scene the past few years. Stats was gone, so he couldn't contribute to the Protoss winrate. Stats needed time to get back into form after being gone from the scene for 2 years, since it's not something you can just magically turn on and off. I've been saying since IEM Katowice that his form has been improving and I even said specifically during his IEM Katowice games that he was almost there, despite what his score looked like. Mate it's not that I don't remember what you say, it's that I disagree with you, and not only that I also don't really believe that you believe it yourself. Basically admitting you walk into threads with your fingers stuck in your ears. I even said back before Trap left to the military that Protoss was going to be in a very dark place for a while because all of the best Protoss players were gone to the military at the same time. When herO came back and got back into shape as fast as he did, I actually thought that the worst case scenario for Protoss had been averted because I expected Protoss to suffer worse for longer. That's why I've never been on board with this Protoss whine train the last couple years because the worst case scenario I imagined never actually came to pass. Although it does stink that Parting won't be coming back since he was one of the players I was hoping would bring Protoss back both in terms of wins and in terms of being an entertaining innovator. I'm not the only one who's been saying this about Protoss either. Not even close. I still don't think Protoss is ever going to catch Terran or Zerg's tournament winrate. That won't happen without a redesign to the race. But things will get better for them than it was when all of their best players weren't competing. Yeah a lot of people were pushing this narrative because they didn't like protoss and they wanted the balance to not change, so that protoss would keep losing and they could watch the match-ups they like instead of watching protosses. But they couldn't really admit to that, so instead they just pretended to believe that all protoss players happen to be bad and therefore it makes sense that they keep losing. I remember, I was there too. That's why I'm kind of happy that after the balance patches went through, protoss started performing better, as we've seen in the last two patches. In my eyes this showed that this absurd narrative, that protosses exist outside of balance somehow, is not supported by the facts. And then I entered this thread and saw the absurd claim that what's happening right now is evidence that people were right about protoss players being bad. That tickled me a little bit, so I commented. You can still believe your narrative (and again, I do not think you do), but you can't claim that these GSL results are evidence in favor of your narrative. They are very clearly not. You seriously are going to sit there and try and tell me that I waste my time posting shit to TeamLiquid that I don't actually believe. You're so incapable of coming up with any kind of logic, or argument against what I'm saying that the only thing you can do is say "nah you don't actually believe what you say." It's pathetic honestly. Oh and as for your GSL results, I just explained how all of the results we've seen (all 24 games worth lol) have had nothing or at the most VERY LITTLE to do with the patch and are a bigger result of the map pool update than anything else. But you're just going to do what you always do with that information. Ignore it, because it doesn't suit your narrative. Like Fango, you claim both that protoss design makes it impossible for protosses to win the same amount as terran or zerg, but also that it's very important that protosses retired. Those are contradictory claims. Those are not contradictory claims. I have said extremely clearly that they are both potentially contributing factors to the lack of protoss championships. You can't ignore that LotV has some issues, but you also can''t ignore that the top 6 protoss players retired, the next best refuses to play on LAN. Put it this way, the reason for the lack of protoss championships could be down to... A) Design flaws that limit skill expression B) Every good protoss player retiring or refusing to play LAN C) A combination of both. If those good protoss players hadn't retired, what would their results be? Unless nerves are in play Maxpax would definitely make top 2 protoss in most LANs, you guys are coping.
Nerves very much are in play though, given he’s the only top talent I can ever recall who doesn’t play LANs at all.
Whatever his reasons he’s not comfortable even playing a LAN, so I feel it logically follows that if he did do so he wouldn’t perform particularly well.
On April 08 2024 15:04 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2024 12:18 tigera6 wrote:On April 07 2024 23:29 Nebuchad wrote:On April 07 2024 21:36 Fango wrote:On April 05 2024 23:26 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 23:04 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 07:03 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 06:47 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 06:33 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 06:23 Vindicare605 wrote:
[quote]
Stats is returning to form after coming back from the military. You HAVE to remember the DOZENS of times I've told this to you in the MULTIPLE threads we've argued about this. You refuse to acknowledge that Protoss players leaving for the military in Korea is a VERY BIG reason why Protoss has been struggling in the pro scene the past few years.
Stats was gone, so he couldn't contribute to the Protoss winrate. Stats needed time to get back into form after being gone from the scene for 2 years, since it's not something you can just magically turn on and off.
I've been saying since IEM Katowice that his form has been improving and I even said specifically during his IEM Katowice games that he was almost there, despite what his score looked like. Mate it's not that I don't remember what you say, it's that I disagree with you, and not only that I also don't really believe that you believe it yourself. Basically admitting you walk into threads with your fingers stuck in your ears. I even said back before Trap left to the military that Protoss was going to be in a very dark place for a while because all of the best Protoss players were gone to the military at the same time. When herO came back and got back into shape as fast as he did, I actually thought that the worst case scenario for Protoss had been averted because I expected Protoss to suffer worse for longer. That's why I've never been on board with this Protoss whine train the last couple years because the worst case scenario I imagined never actually came to pass. Although it does stink that Parting won't be coming back since he was one of the players I was hoping would bring Protoss back both in terms of wins and in terms of being an entertaining innovator. I'm not the only one who's been saying this about Protoss either. Not even close. I still don't think Protoss is ever going to catch Terran or Zerg's tournament winrate. That won't happen without a redesign to the race. But things will get better for them than it was when all of their best players weren't competing. Yeah a lot of people were pushing this narrative because they didn't like protoss and they wanted the balance to not change, so that protoss would keep losing and they could watch the match-ups they like instead of watching protosses. But they couldn't really admit to that, so instead they just pretended to believe that all protoss players happen to be bad and therefore it makes sense that they keep losing. I remember, I was there too. That's why I'm kind of happy that after the balance patches went through, protoss started performing better, as we've seen in the last two patches. In my eyes this showed that this absurd narrative, that protosses exist outside of balance somehow, is not supported by the facts. And then I entered this thread and saw the absurd claim that what's happening right now is evidence that people were right about protoss players being bad. That tickled me a little bit, so I commented. You can still believe your narrative (and again, I do not think you do), but you can't claim that these GSL results are evidence in favor of your narrative. They are very clearly not. You seriously are going to sit there and try and tell me that I waste my time posting shit to TeamLiquid that I don't actually believe. You're so incapable of coming up with any kind of logic, or argument against what I'm saying that the only thing you can do is say "nah you don't actually believe what you say." It's pathetic honestly. Oh and as for your GSL results, I just explained how all of the results we've seen (all 24 games worth lol) have had nothing or at the most VERY LITTLE to do with the patch and are a bigger result of the map pool update than anything else. But you're just going to do what you always do with that information. Ignore it, because it doesn't suit your narrative. Like Fango, you claim both that protoss design makes it impossible for protosses to win the same amount as terran or zerg, but also that it's very important that protosses retired. Those are contradictory claims. Those are not contradictory claims. I have said extremely clearly that they are both potentially contributing factors to the lack of protoss championships. You can't ignore that LotV has some issues, but you also can''t ignore that the top 6 protoss players retired, the next best refuses to play on LAN. Put it this way, the reason for the lack of protoss championships could be down to... A) Design flaws that limit skill expression B) Every good protoss player retiring or refusing to play LAN C) A combination of both. If those good protoss players hadn't retired, what would their results be? Unless nerves are in play Maxpax would definitely make top 2 protoss in most LANs, you guys are coping. Trap would be a consistent Top 4/8 in most tournament, Parting would also be a consistent top 8 player. Zest can bust out a strong run at anytime to reach the Final. Zoun is also very solid and could get top 8 as well. We just saw what Classic and Stats are doing after getting back in form. I would expect the same performance from the other top Protoss player who had retired/gone to military service. So nothing different from what the protoss players who haven't retired are doing.
Except there’s only 3 or 4 of them now, and all it takes is a few to have a bad day or run into ZvP’s final boss in Serral early and you’ve very little Protoss presence going into a tournament’s final day.
And it’s only relatively recently Stats started showing some good form, despite his results being bad I think he’d actually shown some good StarCraft at Katowice. Certainly better than looking at the match results anyway.
It’s a shame Trap apparently isn’t even going to attempt a comeback as if he got into even close to the shape he was in he’d be a huge asset to the forces of Aiur 
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On April 08 2024 16:57 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2024 23:29 Nebuchad wrote:On April 07 2024 21:36 Fango wrote:On April 05 2024 23:26 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 23:04 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 07:03 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 06:47 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 06:33 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 06:23 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 06:14 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
I don't watch the games no, I probably hate myself to an extent but not to that extent.
Would you like to discuss the claim that this result by Stats is evidence pointing toward the validity of the claim that protoss players only lose because they all happen to suck? Stats is returning to form after coming back from the military. You HAVE to remember the DOZENS of times I've told this to you in the MULTIPLE threads we've argued about this. You refuse to acknowledge that Protoss players leaving for the military in Korea is a VERY BIG reason why Protoss has been struggling in the pro scene the past few years. Stats was gone, so he couldn't contribute to the Protoss winrate. Stats needed time to get back into form after being gone from the scene for 2 years, since it's not something you can just magically turn on and off. I've been saying since IEM Katowice that his form has been improving and I even said specifically during his IEM Katowice games that he was almost there, despite what his score looked like. Mate it's not that I don't remember what you say, it's that I disagree with you, and not only that I also don't really believe that you believe it yourself. Basically admitting you walk into threads with your fingers stuck in your ears. I even said back before Trap left to the military that Protoss was going to be in a very dark place for a while because all of the best Protoss players were gone to the military at the same time. When herO came back and got back into shape as fast as he did, I actually thought that the worst case scenario for Protoss had been averted because I expected Protoss to suffer worse for longer. That's why I've never been on board with this Protoss whine train the last couple years because the worst case scenario I imagined never actually came to pass. Although it does stink that Parting won't be coming back since he was one of the players I was hoping would bring Protoss back both in terms of wins and in terms of being an entertaining innovator. I'm not the only one who's been saying this about Protoss either. Not even close. I still don't think Protoss is ever going to catch Terran or Zerg's tournament winrate. That won't happen without a redesign to the race. But things will get better for them than it was when all of their best players weren't competing. Yeah a lot of people were pushing this narrative because they didn't like protoss and they wanted the balance to not change, so that protoss would keep losing and they could watch the match-ups they like instead of watching protosses. But they couldn't really admit to that, so instead they just pretended to believe that all protoss players happen to be bad and therefore it makes sense that they keep losing. I remember, I was there too. That's why I'm kind of happy that after the balance patches went through, protoss started performing better, as we've seen in the last two patches. In my eyes this showed that this absurd narrative, that protosses exist outside of balance somehow, is not supported by the facts. And then I entered this thread and saw the absurd claim that what's happening right now is evidence that people were right about protoss players being bad. That tickled me a little bit, so I commented. You can still believe your narrative (and again, I do not think you do), but you can't claim that these GSL results are evidence in favor of your narrative. They are very clearly not. You seriously are going to sit there and try and tell me that I waste my time posting shit to TeamLiquid that I don't actually believe. You're so incapable of coming up with any kind of logic, or argument against what I'm saying that the only thing you can do is say "nah you don't actually believe what you say." It's pathetic honestly. Oh and as for your GSL results, I just explained how all of the results we've seen (all 24 games worth lol) have had nothing or at the most VERY LITTLE to do with the patch and are a bigger result of the map pool update than anything else. But you're just going to do what you always do with that information. Ignore it, because it doesn't suit your narrative. Like Fango, you claim both that protoss design makes it impossible for protosses to win the same amount as terran or zerg, but also that it's very important that protosses retired. Those are contradictory claims. Those are not contradictory claims. I have said extremely clearly that they are both potentially contributing factors to the lack of protoss championships. You can't ignore that LotV has some issues, but you also can''t ignore that the top 6 protoss players retired, the next best refuses to play on LAN. Put it this way, the reason for the lack of protoss championships could be down to... A) Design flaws that limit skill expression B) Every good protoss player retiring or refusing to play LAN C) A combination of both. If those good protoss players hadn't retired, what would their results be? Unless nerves are in play Maxpax would definitely make top 2 protoss in most LANs, you guys are coping. Nerves very much are in play though, given he’s the only top talent I can ever recall who doesn’t play LANs at all. Whatever his reasons he’s not comfortable even playing a LAN, so I feel it logically follows that if he did do so he wouldn’t perform particularly well. Show nested quote +On April 08 2024 15:04 Nebuchad wrote:On April 08 2024 12:18 tigera6 wrote:On April 07 2024 23:29 Nebuchad wrote:On April 07 2024 21:36 Fango wrote:On April 05 2024 23:26 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 23:04 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 07:03 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 06:47 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 06:33 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
Mate it's not that I don't remember what you say, it's that I disagree with you, and not only that I also don't really believe that you believe it yourself. Basically admitting you walk into threads with your fingers stuck in your ears. I even said back before Trap left to the military that Protoss was going to be in a very dark place for a while because all of the best Protoss players were gone to the military at the same time. When herO came back and got back into shape as fast as he did, I actually thought that the worst case scenario for Protoss had been averted because I expected Protoss to suffer worse for longer. That's why I've never been on board with this Protoss whine train the last couple years because the worst case scenario I imagined never actually came to pass. Although it does stink that Parting won't be coming back since he was one of the players I was hoping would bring Protoss back both in terms of wins and in terms of being an entertaining innovator. I'm not the only one who's been saying this about Protoss either. Not even close. I still don't think Protoss is ever going to catch Terran or Zerg's tournament winrate. That won't happen without a redesign to the race. But things will get better for them than it was when all of their best players weren't competing. Yeah a lot of people were pushing this narrative because they didn't like protoss and they wanted the balance to not change, so that protoss would keep losing and they could watch the match-ups they like instead of watching protosses. But they couldn't really admit to that, so instead they just pretended to believe that all protoss players happen to be bad and therefore it makes sense that they keep losing. I remember, I was there too. That's why I'm kind of happy that after the balance patches went through, protoss started performing better, as we've seen in the last two patches. In my eyes this showed that this absurd narrative, that protosses exist outside of balance somehow, is not supported by the facts. And then I entered this thread and saw the absurd claim that what's happening right now is evidence that people were right about protoss players being bad. That tickled me a little bit, so I commented. You can still believe your narrative (and again, I do not think you do), but you can't claim that these GSL results are evidence in favor of your narrative. They are very clearly not. You seriously are going to sit there and try and tell me that I waste my time posting shit to TeamLiquid that I don't actually believe. You're so incapable of coming up with any kind of logic, or argument against what I'm saying that the only thing you can do is say "nah you don't actually believe what you say." It's pathetic honestly. Oh and as for your GSL results, I just explained how all of the results we've seen (all 24 games worth lol) have had nothing or at the most VERY LITTLE to do with the patch and are a bigger result of the map pool update than anything else. But you're just going to do what you always do with that information. Ignore it, because it doesn't suit your narrative. Like Fango, you claim both that protoss design makes it impossible for protosses to win the same amount as terran or zerg, but also that it's very important that protosses retired. Those are contradictory claims. Those are not contradictory claims. I have said extremely clearly that they are both potentially contributing factors to the lack of protoss championships. You can't ignore that LotV has some issues, but you also can''t ignore that the top 6 protoss players retired, the next best refuses to play on LAN. Put it this way, the reason for the lack of protoss championships could be down to... A) Design flaws that limit skill expression B) Every good protoss player retiring or refusing to play LAN C) A combination of both. If those good protoss players hadn't retired, what would their results be? Unless nerves are in play Maxpax would definitely make top 2 protoss in most LANs, you guys are coping. Trap would be a consistent Top 4/8 in most tournament, Parting would also be a consistent top 8 player. Zest can bust out a strong run at anytime to reach the Final. Zoun is also very solid and could get top 8 as well. We just saw what Classic and Stats are doing after getting back in form. I would expect the same performance from the other top Protoss player who had retired/gone to military service. So nothing different from what the protoss players who haven't retired are doing. Except there’s only 3 or 4 of them now, and all it takes is a few to have a bad day or run into ZvP’s final boss in Serral early and you’ve very little Protoss presence going into a tournament’s final day. And it’s only relatively recently Stats started showing some good form, despite his results being bad I think he’d actually shown some good StarCraft at Katowice. Certainly better than looking at the match results anyway. It’s a shame Trap apparently isn’t even going to attempt a comeback as if he got into even close to the shape he was in he’d be a huge asset to the forces of Aiur
Nerves would probably be in play, I agree. But that reads to me as a different argument from what I'm responding to. Maxpax is very good but might be hindered by nerves in tournament play is not quite the same as Maxpax can be dismissed because it's just online bullshit. If Maxpax wasn't playing I would have much different opinions on the current balance.
"Except there's only 3 or 4 of them now" also applies to the other races, zergs have lost Life, DRG, Rogue, soO, ByuL, Symbol and terrans have lost Mvp, MMA, TaeJa, Innovation, TY, Marineking... That is not a specific issue.
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Northern Ireland24995 Posts
On April 08 2024 17:35 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2024 16:57 WombaT wrote:On April 07 2024 23:29 Nebuchad wrote:On April 07 2024 21:36 Fango wrote:On April 05 2024 23:26 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 23:04 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 07:03 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 06:47 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 06:33 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 06:23 Vindicare605 wrote:
[quote]
Stats is returning to form after coming back from the military. You HAVE to remember the DOZENS of times I've told this to you in the MULTIPLE threads we've argued about this. You refuse to acknowledge that Protoss players leaving for the military in Korea is a VERY BIG reason why Protoss has been struggling in the pro scene the past few years.
Stats was gone, so he couldn't contribute to the Protoss winrate. Stats needed time to get back into form after being gone from the scene for 2 years, since it's not something you can just magically turn on and off.
I've been saying since IEM Katowice that his form has been improving and I even said specifically during his IEM Katowice games that he was almost there, despite what his score looked like. Mate it's not that I don't remember what you say, it's that I disagree with you, and not only that I also don't really believe that you believe it yourself. Basically admitting you walk into threads with your fingers stuck in your ears. I even said back before Trap left to the military that Protoss was going to be in a very dark place for a while because all of the best Protoss players were gone to the military at the same time. When herO came back and got back into shape as fast as he did, I actually thought that the worst case scenario for Protoss had been averted because I expected Protoss to suffer worse for longer. That's why I've never been on board with this Protoss whine train the last couple years because the worst case scenario I imagined never actually came to pass. Although it does stink that Parting won't be coming back since he was one of the players I was hoping would bring Protoss back both in terms of wins and in terms of being an entertaining innovator. I'm not the only one who's been saying this about Protoss either. Not even close. I still don't think Protoss is ever going to catch Terran or Zerg's tournament winrate. That won't happen without a redesign to the race. But things will get better for them than it was when all of their best players weren't competing. Yeah a lot of people were pushing this narrative because they didn't like protoss and they wanted the balance to not change, so that protoss would keep losing and they could watch the match-ups they like instead of watching protosses. But they couldn't really admit to that, so instead they just pretended to believe that all protoss players happen to be bad and therefore it makes sense that they keep losing. I remember, I was there too. That's why I'm kind of happy that after the balance patches went through, protoss started performing better, as we've seen in the last two patches. In my eyes this showed that this absurd narrative, that protosses exist outside of balance somehow, is not supported by the facts. And then I entered this thread and saw the absurd claim that what's happening right now is evidence that people were right about protoss players being bad. That tickled me a little bit, so I commented. You can still believe your narrative (and again, I do not think you do), but you can't claim that these GSL results are evidence in favor of your narrative. They are very clearly not. You seriously are going to sit there and try and tell me that I waste my time posting shit to TeamLiquid that I don't actually believe. You're so incapable of coming up with any kind of logic, or argument against what I'm saying that the only thing you can do is say "nah you don't actually believe what you say." It's pathetic honestly. Oh and as for your GSL results, I just explained how all of the results we've seen (all 24 games worth lol) have had nothing or at the most VERY LITTLE to do with the patch and are a bigger result of the map pool update than anything else. But you're just going to do what you always do with that information. Ignore it, because it doesn't suit your narrative. Like Fango, you claim both that protoss design makes it impossible for protosses to win the same amount as terran or zerg, but also that it's very important that protosses retired. Those are contradictory claims. Those are not contradictory claims. I have said extremely clearly that they are both potentially contributing factors to the lack of protoss championships. You can't ignore that LotV has some issues, but you also can''t ignore that the top 6 protoss players retired, the next best refuses to play on LAN. Put it this way, the reason for the lack of protoss championships could be down to... A) Design flaws that limit skill expression B) Every good protoss player retiring or refusing to play LAN C) A combination of both. If those good protoss players hadn't retired, what would their results be? Unless nerves are in play Maxpax would definitely make top 2 protoss in most LANs, you guys are coping. Nerves very much are in play though, given he’s the only top talent I can ever recall who doesn’t play LANs at all. Whatever his reasons he’s not comfortable even playing a LAN, so I feel it logically follows that if he did do so he wouldn’t perform particularly well. On April 08 2024 15:04 Nebuchad wrote:On April 08 2024 12:18 tigera6 wrote:On April 07 2024 23:29 Nebuchad wrote:On April 07 2024 21:36 Fango wrote:On April 05 2024 23:26 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 23:04 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 07:03 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 06:47 Vindicare605 wrote:
[quote]
Basically admitting you walk into threads with your fingers stuck in your ears. I even said back before Trap left to the military that Protoss was going to be in a very dark place for a while because all of the best Protoss players were gone to the military at the same time.
When herO came back and got back into shape as fast as he did, I actually thought that the worst case scenario for Protoss had been averted because I expected Protoss to suffer worse for longer. That's why I've never been on board with this Protoss whine train the last couple years because the worst case scenario I imagined never actually came to pass. Although it does stink that Parting won't be coming back since he was one of the players I was hoping would bring Protoss back both in terms of wins and in terms of being an entertaining innovator.
I'm not the only one who's been saying this about Protoss either. Not even close.
I still don't think Protoss is ever going to catch Terran or Zerg's tournament winrate. That won't happen without a redesign to the race. But things will get better for them than it was when all of their best players weren't competing. Yeah a lot of people were pushing this narrative because they didn't like protoss and they wanted the balance to not change, so that protoss would keep losing and they could watch the match-ups they like instead of watching protosses. But they couldn't really admit to that, so instead they just pretended to believe that all protoss players happen to be bad and therefore it makes sense that they keep losing. I remember, I was there too. That's why I'm kind of happy that after the balance patches went through, protoss started performing better, as we've seen in the last two patches. In my eyes this showed that this absurd narrative, that protosses exist outside of balance somehow, is not supported by the facts. And then I entered this thread and saw the absurd claim that what's happening right now is evidence that people were right about protoss players being bad. That tickled me a little bit, so I commented. You can still believe your narrative (and again, I do not think you do), but you can't claim that these GSL results are evidence in favor of your narrative. They are very clearly not. You seriously are going to sit there and try and tell me that I waste my time posting shit to TeamLiquid that I don't actually believe. You're so incapable of coming up with any kind of logic, or argument against what I'm saying that the only thing you can do is say "nah you don't actually believe what you say." It's pathetic honestly. Oh and as for your GSL results, I just explained how all of the results we've seen (all 24 games worth lol) have had nothing or at the most VERY LITTLE to do with the patch and are a bigger result of the map pool update than anything else. But you're just going to do what you always do with that information. Ignore it, because it doesn't suit your narrative. Like Fango, you claim both that protoss design makes it impossible for protosses to win the same amount as terran or zerg, but also that it's very important that protosses retired. Those are contradictory claims. Those are not contradictory claims. I have said extremely clearly that they are both potentially contributing factors to the lack of protoss championships. You can't ignore that LotV has some issues, but you also can''t ignore that the top 6 protoss players retired, the next best refuses to play on LAN. Put it this way, the reason for the lack of protoss championships could be down to... A) Design flaws that limit skill expression B) Every good protoss player retiring or refusing to play LAN C) A combination of both. If those good protoss players hadn't retired, what would their results be? Unless nerves are in play Maxpax would definitely make top 2 protoss in most LANs, you guys are coping. Trap would be a consistent Top 4/8 in most tournament, Parting would also be a consistent top 8 player. Zest can bust out a strong run at anytime to reach the Final. Zoun is also very solid and could get top 8 as well. We just saw what Classic and Stats are doing after getting back in form. I would expect the same performance from the other top Protoss player who had retired/gone to military service. So nothing different from what the protoss players who haven't retired are doing. Except there’s only 3 or 4 of them now, and all it takes is a few to have a bad day or run into ZvP’s final boss in Serral early and you’ve very little Protoss presence going into a tournament’s final day. And it’s only relatively recently Stats started showing some good form, despite his results being bad I think he’d actually shown some good StarCraft at Katowice. Certainly better than looking at the match results anyway. It’s a shame Trap apparently isn’t even going to attempt a comeback as if he got into even close to the shape he was in he’d be a huge asset to the forces of Aiur Nerves would probably be in play, I agree. But that reads to me as a different argument from what I'm responding to. Maxpax is very good but might be hindered by nerves in tournament play is not quite the same as Maxpax can be dismissed because it's just online bullshit. If Maxpax wasn't playing I would have much different opinions on the current balance. "Except there's only 3 or 4 of them now" also applies to the other races, zergs have lost Life, DRG, Rogue, soO, ByuL, Symbol and terrans have lost Mvp, MMA, TaeJa, Innovation, TY, Marineking... That is not a specific issue.
Terrans currently have Maru, Cure, Byun, Gumiho, Clem, Bunny if he’s on it, Heromarine is a very solid player.
Zergs are getting thinned out with Dark approaching military service, less depth but maybe a higher peak with Serral being basically god, Reynor being an absolute monster when he’s on it and a few others like Rag or Solar who are very competitive. Rogue is back and apparently getting back in shape rather quickly, so he may be a factor soon
Protoss have like herO as a proven consistent title contender. Stats is showing signs and likewise Classic. Showtime is very good but has never made that next step, Maximus Paximus doesn’t play offline events and maybe Creator goes on another run?
I agree with you that Protoss can be just undertuned regardless of the talent pool, but equally the talent pool has been drained a hell of a lot compared to other races.
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On April 08 2024 17:45 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2024 17:35 Nebuchad wrote:On April 08 2024 16:57 WombaT wrote:On April 07 2024 23:29 Nebuchad wrote:On April 07 2024 21:36 Fango wrote:On April 05 2024 23:26 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 23:04 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 07:03 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 06:47 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 06:33 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
Mate it's not that I don't remember what you say, it's that I disagree with you, and not only that I also don't really believe that you believe it yourself. Basically admitting you walk into threads with your fingers stuck in your ears. I even said back before Trap left to the military that Protoss was going to be in a very dark place for a while because all of the best Protoss players were gone to the military at the same time. When herO came back and got back into shape as fast as he did, I actually thought that the worst case scenario for Protoss had been averted because I expected Protoss to suffer worse for longer. That's why I've never been on board with this Protoss whine train the last couple years because the worst case scenario I imagined never actually came to pass. Although it does stink that Parting won't be coming back since he was one of the players I was hoping would bring Protoss back both in terms of wins and in terms of being an entertaining innovator. I'm not the only one who's been saying this about Protoss either. Not even close. I still don't think Protoss is ever going to catch Terran or Zerg's tournament winrate. That won't happen without a redesign to the race. But things will get better for them than it was when all of their best players weren't competing. Yeah a lot of people were pushing this narrative because they didn't like protoss and they wanted the balance to not change, so that protoss would keep losing and they could watch the match-ups they like instead of watching protosses. But they couldn't really admit to that, so instead they just pretended to believe that all protoss players happen to be bad and therefore it makes sense that they keep losing. I remember, I was there too. That's why I'm kind of happy that after the balance patches went through, protoss started performing better, as we've seen in the last two patches. In my eyes this showed that this absurd narrative, that protosses exist outside of balance somehow, is not supported by the facts. And then I entered this thread and saw the absurd claim that what's happening right now is evidence that people were right about protoss players being bad. That tickled me a little bit, so I commented. You can still believe your narrative (and again, I do not think you do), but you can't claim that these GSL results are evidence in favor of your narrative. They are very clearly not. You seriously are going to sit there and try and tell me that I waste my time posting shit to TeamLiquid that I don't actually believe. You're so incapable of coming up with any kind of logic, or argument against what I'm saying that the only thing you can do is say "nah you don't actually believe what you say." It's pathetic honestly. Oh and as for your GSL results, I just explained how all of the results we've seen (all 24 games worth lol) have had nothing or at the most VERY LITTLE to do with the patch and are a bigger result of the map pool update than anything else. But you're just going to do what you always do with that information. Ignore it, because it doesn't suit your narrative. Like Fango, you claim both that protoss design makes it impossible for protosses to win the same amount as terran or zerg, but also that it's very important that protosses retired. Those are contradictory claims. Those are not contradictory claims. I have said extremely clearly that they are both potentially contributing factors to the lack of protoss championships. You can't ignore that LotV has some issues, but you also can''t ignore that the top 6 protoss players retired, the next best refuses to play on LAN. Put it this way, the reason for the lack of protoss championships could be down to... A) Design flaws that limit skill expression B) Every good protoss player retiring or refusing to play LAN C) A combination of both. If those good protoss players hadn't retired, what would their results be? Unless nerves are in play Maxpax would definitely make top 2 protoss in most LANs, you guys are coping. Nerves very much are in play though, given he’s the only top talent I can ever recall who doesn’t play LANs at all. Whatever his reasons he’s not comfortable even playing a LAN, so I feel it logically follows that if he did do so he wouldn’t perform particularly well. On April 08 2024 15:04 Nebuchad wrote:On April 08 2024 12:18 tigera6 wrote:On April 07 2024 23:29 Nebuchad wrote:On April 07 2024 21:36 Fango wrote:On April 05 2024 23:26 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 23:04 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 07:03 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
Yeah a lot of people were pushing this narrative because they didn't like protoss and they wanted the balance to not change, so that protoss would keep losing and they could watch the match-ups they like instead of watching protosses. But they couldn't really admit to that, so instead they just pretended to believe that all protoss players happen to be bad and therefore it makes sense that they keep losing. I remember, I was there too.
That's why I'm kind of happy that after the balance patches went through, protoss started performing better, as we've seen in the last two patches. In my eyes this showed that this absurd narrative, that protosses exist outside of balance somehow, is not supported by the facts. And then I entered this thread and saw the absurd claim that what's happening right now is evidence that people were right about protoss players being bad. That tickled me a little bit, so I commented.
You can still believe your narrative (and again, I do not think you do), but you can't claim that these GSL results are evidence in favor of your narrative. They are very clearly not. You seriously are going to sit there and try and tell me that I waste my time posting shit to TeamLiquid that I don't actually believe. You're so incapable of coming up with any kind of logic, or argument against what I'm saying that the only thing you can do is say "nah you don't actually believe what you say." It's pathetic honestly. Oh and as for your GSL results, I just explained how all of the results we've seen (all 24 games worth lol) have had nothing or at the most VERY LITTLE to do with the patch and are a bigger result of the map pool update than anything else. But you're just going to do what you always do with that information. Ignore it, because it doesn't suit your narrative. Like Fango, you claim both that protoss design makes it impossible for protosses to win the same amount as terran or zerg, but also that it's very important that protosses retired. Those are contradictory claims. Those are not contradictory claims. I have said extremely clearly that they are both potentially contributing factors to the lack of protoss championships. You can't ignore that LotV has some issues, but you also can''t ignore that the top 6 protoss players retired, the next best refuses to play on LAN. Put it this way, the reason for the lack of protoss championships could be down to... A) Design flaws that limit skill expression B) Every good protoss player retiring or refusing to play LAN C) A combination of both. If those good protoss players hadn't retired, what would their results be? Unless nerves are in play Maxpax would definitely make top 2 protoss in most LANs, you guys are coping. Trap would be a consistent Top 4/8 in most tournament, Parting would also be a consistent top 8 player. Zest can bust out a strong run at anytime to reach the Final. Zoun is also very solid and could get top 8 as well. We just saw what Classic and Stats are doing after getting back in form. I would expect the same performance from the other top Protoss player who had retired/gone to military service. So nothing different from what the protoss players who haven't retired are doing. Except there’s only 3 or 4 of them now, and all it takes is a few to have a bad day or run into ZvP’s final boss in Serral early and you’ve very little Protoss presence going into a tournament’s final day. And it’s only relatively recently Stats started showing some good form, despite his results being bad I think he’d actually shown some good StarCraft at Katowice. Certainly better than looking at the match results anyway. It’s a shame Trap apparently isn’t even going to attempt a comeback as if he got into even close to the shape he was in he’d be a huge asset to the forces of Aiur Nerves would probably be in play, I agree. But that reads to me as a different argument from what I'm responding to. Maxpax is very good but might be hindered by nerves in tournament play is not quite the same as Maxpax can be dismissed because it's just online bullshit. If Maxpax wasn't playing I would have much different opinions on the current balance. "Except there's only 3 or 4 of them now" also applies to the other races, zergs have lost Life, DRG, Rogue, soO, ByuL, Symbol and terrans have lost Mvp, MMA, TaeJa, Innovation, TY, Marineking... That is not a specific issue. Terrans currently have Maru, Cure, Byun, Gumiho, Clem, Bunny if he’s on it, Heromarine is a very solid player. Zergs are getting thinned out with Dark approaching military service, less depth but maybe a higher peak with Serral being basically god, Reynor being an absolute monster when he’s on it and a few others like Rag or Solar who are very competitive. Rogue is back and apparently getting back in shape rather quickly, so he may be a factor soon Protoss have like herO as a proven consistent title contender. Stats is showing signs and likewise Classic. Showtime is very good but has never made that next step, Maximus Paximus doesn’t play offline events and maybe Creator goes on another run? I agree with you that Protoss can be just undertuned regardless of the talent pool, but equally the talent pool has been drained a hell of a lot compared to other races.
I see this as a result oriented analysis. Cure, Gumiho, Bunny and Heromarine are perceived as solid because they're having solid results now. In this hypothetical tournament with all the great retired players, nobody who thinks that terran is going to win would count on them being the winning terran, by a mile. They're the current good terrans because they're currently having good terran results, not because terran had a bigger pool of players who have the capacity to win from the start.
That is how a race is supposed to work, when great players retire, other players step up and become current greats. Rogue and Dark did that for zerg after Life Symbol and DRG went away. The difference when it comes to protoss is that nobody stepped up after those players retired, and my theory is obviously that nobody could have stepped up because it's during this period that protoss was absurdly underpowered. Now patches came through and it's imo likely that protoss is the strongest race balance wise right now, which makes it likely that some protoss players will "become championship level" now.
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Northern Ireland24995 Posts
On April 08 2024 18:00 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2024 17:45 WombaT wrote:On April 08 2024 17:35 Nebuchad wrote:On April 08 2024 16:57 WombaT wrote:On April 07 2024 23:29 Nebuchad wrote:On April 07 2024 21:36 Fango wrote:On April 05 2024 23:26 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 23:04 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 07:03 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 06:47 Vindicare605 wrote:
[quote]
Basically admitting you walk into threads with your fingers stuck in your ears. I even said back before Trap left to the military that Protoss was going to be in a very dark place for a while because all of the best Protoss players were gone to the military at the same time.
When herO came back and got back into shape as fast as he did, I actually thought that the worst case scenario for Protoss had been averted because I expected Protoss to suffer worse for longer. That's why I've never been on board with this Protoss whine train the last couple years because the worst case scenario I imagined never actually came to pass. Although it does stink that Parting won't be coming back since he was one of the players I was hoping would bring Protoss back both in terms of wins and in terms of being an entertaining innovator.
I'm not the only one who's been saying this about Protoss either. Not even close.
I still don't think Protoss is ever going to catch Terran or Zerg's tournament winrate. That won't happen without a redesign to the race. But things will get better for them than it was when all of their best players weren't competing. Yeah a lot of people were pushing this narrative because they didn't like protoss and they wanted the balance to not change, so that protoss would keep losing and they could watch the match-ups they like instead of watching protosses. But they couldn't really admit to that, so instead they just pretended to believe that all protoss players happen to be bad and therefore it makes sense that they keep losing. I remember, I was there too. That's why I'm kind of happy that after the balance patches went through, protoss started performing better, as we've seen in the last two patches. In my eyes this showed that this absurd narrative, that protosses exist outside of balance somehow, is not supported by the facts. And then I entered this thread and saw the absurd claim that what's happening right now is evidence that people were right about protoss players being bad. That tickled me a little bit, so I commented. You can still believe your narrative (and again, I do not think you do), but you can't claim that these GSL results are evidence in favor of your narrative. They are very clearly not. You seriously are going to sit there and try and tell me that I waste my time posting shit to TeamLiquid that I don't actually believe. You're so incapable of coming up with any kind of logic, or argument against what I'm saying that the only thing you can do is say "nah you don't actually believe what you say." It's pathetic honestly. Oh and as for your GSL results, I just explained how all of the results we've seen (all 24 games worth lol) have had nothing or at the most VERY LITTLE to do with the patch and are a bigger result of the map pool update than anything else. But you're just going to do what you always do with that information. Ignore it, because it doesn't suit your narrative. Like Fango, you claim both that protoss design makes it impossible for protosses to win the same amount as terran or zerg, but also that it's very important that protosses retired. Those are contradictory claims. Those are not contradictory claims. I have said extremely clearly that they are both potentially contributing factors to the lack of protoss championships. You can't ignore that LotV has some issues, but you also can''t ignore that the top 6 protoss players retired, the next best refuses to play on LAN. Put it this way, the reason for the lack of protoss championships could be down to... A) Design flaws that limit skill expression B) Every good protoss player retiring or refusing to play LAN C) A combination of both. If those good protoss players hadn't retired, what would their results be? Unless nerves are in play Maxpax would definitely make top 2 protoss in most LANs, you guys are coping. Nerves very much are in play though, given he’s the only top talent I can ever recall who doesn’t play LANs at all. Whatever his reasons he’s not comfortable even playing a LAN, so I feel it logically follows that if he did do so he wouldn’t perform particularly well. On April 08 2024 15:04 Nebuchad wrote:On April 08 2024 12:18 tigera6 wrote:On April 07 2024 23:29 Nebuchad wrote:On April 07 2024 21:36 Fango wrote:On April 05 2024 23:26 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 23:04 Vindicare605 wrote:
[quote]
You seriously are going to sit there and try and tell me that I waste my time posting shit to TeamLiquid that I don't actually believe. You're so incapable of coming up with any kind of logic, or argument against what I'm saying that the only thing you can do is say "nah you don't actually believe what you say."
It's pathetic honestly.
Oh and as for your GSL results, I just explained how all of the results we've seen (all 24 games worth lol) have had nothing or at the most VERY LITTLE to do with the patch and are a bigger result of the map pool update than anything else.
But you're just going to do what you always do with that information. Ignore it, because it doesn't suit your narrative. Like Fango, you claim both that protoss design makes it impossible for protosses to win the same amount as terran or zerg, but also that it's very important that protosses retired. Those are contradictory claims. Those are not contradictory claims. I have said extremely clearly that they are both potentially contributing factors to the lack of protoss championships. You can't ignore that LotV has some issues, but you also can''t ignore that the top 6 protoss players retired, the next best refuses to play on LAN. Put it this way, the reason for the lack of protoss championships could be down to... A) Design flaws that limit skill expression B) Every good protoss player retiring or refusing to play LAN C) A combination of both. If those good protoss players hadn't retired, what would their results be? Unless nerves are in play Maxpax would definitely make top 2 protoss in most LANs, you guys are coping. Trap would be a consistent Top 4/8 in most tournament, Parting would also be a consistent top 8 player. Zest can bust out a strong run at anytime to reach the Final. Zoun is also very solid and could get top 8 as well. We just saw what Classic and Stats are doing after getting back in form. I would expect the same performance from the other top Protoss player who had retired/gone to military service. So nothing different from what the protoss players who haven't retired are doing. Except there’s only 3 or 4 of them now, and all it takes is a few to have a bad day or run into ZvP’s final boss in Serral early and you’ve very little Protoss presence going into a tournament’s final day. And it’s only relatively recently Stats started showing some good form, despite his results being bad I think he’d actually shown some good StarCraft at Katowice. Certainly better than looking at the match results anyway. It’s a shame Trap apparently isn’t even going to attempt a comeback as if he got into even close to the shape he was in he’d be a huge asset to the forces of Aiur Nerves would probably be in play, I agree. But that reads to me as a different argument from what I'm responding to. Maxpax is very good but might be hindered by nerves in tournament play is not quite the same as Maxpax can be dismissed because it's just online bullshit. If Maxpax wasn't playing I would have much different opinions on the current balance. "Except there's only 3 or 4 of them now" also applies to the other races, zergs have lost Life, DRG, Rogue, soO, ByuL, Symbol and terrans have lost Mvp, MMA, TaeJa, Innovation, TY, Marineking... That is not a specific issue. Terrans currently have Maru, Cure, Byun, Gumiho, Clem, Bunny if he’s on it, Heromarine is a very solid player. Zergs are getting thinned out with Dark approaching military service, less depth but maybe a higher peak with Serral being basically god, Reynor being an absolute monster when he’s on it and a few others like Rag or Solar who are very competitive. Rogue is back and apparently getting back in shape rather quickly, so he may be a factor soon Protoss have like herO as a proven consistent title contender. Stats is showing signs and likewise Classic. Showtime is very good but has never made that next step, Maximus Paximus doesn’t play offline events and maybe Creator goes on another run? I agree with you that Protoss can be just undertuned regardless of the talent pool, but equally the talent pool has been drained a hell of a lot compared to other races. I see this as a result oriented analysis. Cure, Gumiho, Bunny and Heromarine are perceived as solid because they're having solid results now. In this hypothetical tournament with all the great retired players, nobody who thinks that terran is going to win would count on them being the winning terran, by a mile. They're the current good terrans because they're currently having good terran results, not because terran had a bigger pool of players who have the capacity to win from the start. That is how a race is supposed to work, when great players retire, other players step up and become current greats. Rogue and Dark did that for zerg after Life Symbol and DRG went away. The difference when it comes to protoss is that nobody stepped up after those players retired, and my theory is obviously that nobody could have stepped up because it's during this period that protoss was absurdly underpowered. Now patches came through and it's imo likely that protoss is the strongest race balance wise right now, which makes it likely that some protoss players will "become championship level" now.
Nobody has stepped up in forever for any race. Which makes attrition more impactful.
Even Clem as a relative newcomer has been a top level player for years, and the rest of the Terran cohort are all veterans.
Top Zergs it’s the same. Reynor is the relative newcomer and he’s been a relevant player for half a decade
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On April 08 2024 18:05 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2024 18:00 Nebuchad wrote:On April 08 2024 17:45 WombaT wrote:On April 08 2024 17:35 Nebuchad wrote:On April 08 2024 16:57 WombaT wrote:On April 07 2024 23:29 Nebuchad wrote:On April 07 2024 21:36 Fango wrote:On April 05 2024 23:26 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 23:04 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 07:03 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
Yeah a lot of people were pushing this narrative because they didn't like protoss and they wanted the balance to not change, so that protoss would keep losing and they could watch the match-ups they like instead of watching protosses. But they couldn't really admit to that, so instead they just pretended to believe that all protoss players happen to be bad and therefore it makes sense that they keep losing. I remember, I was there too.
That's why I'm kind of happy that after the balance patches went through, protoss started performing better, as we've seen in the last two patches. In my eyes this showed that this absurd narrative, that protosses exist outside of balance somehow, is not supported by the facts. And then I entered this thread and saw the absurd claim that what's happening right now is evidence that people were right about protoss players being bad. That tickled me a little bit, so I commented.
You can still believe your narrative (and again, I do not think you do), but you can't claim that these GSL results are evidence in favor of your narrative. They are very clearly not. You seriously are going to sit there and try and tell me that I waste my time posting shit to TeamLiquid that I don't actually believe. You're so incapable of coming up with any kind of logic, or argument against what I'm saying that the only thing you can do is say "nah you don't actually believe what you say." It's pathetic honestly. Oh and as for your GSL results, I just explained how all of the results we've seen (all 24 games worth lol) have had nothing or at the most VERY LITTLE to do with the patch and are a bigger result of the map pool update than anything else. But you're just going to do what you always do with that information. Ignore it, because it doesn't suit your narrative. Like Fango, you claim both that protoss design makes it impossible for protosses to win the same amount as terran or zerg, but also that it's very important that protosses retired. Those are contradictory claims. Those are not contradictory claims. I have said extremely clearly that they are both potentially contributing factors to the lack of protoss championships. You can't ignore that LotV has some issues, but you also can''t ignore that the top 6 protoss players retired, the next best refuses to play on LAN. Put it this way, the reason for the lack of protoss championships could be down to... A) Design flaws that limit skill expression B) Every good protoss player retiring or refusing to play LAN C) A combination of both. If those good protoss players hadn't retired, what would their results be? Unless nerves are in play Maxpax would definitely make top 2 protoss in most LANs, you guys are coping. Nerves very much are in play though, given he’s the only top talent I can ever recall who doesn’t play LANs at all. Whatever his reasons he’s not comfortable even playing a LAN, so I feel it logically follows that if he did do so he wouldn’t perform particularly well. On April 08 2024 15:04 Nebuchad wrote:On April 08 2024 12:18 tigera6 wrote:On April 07 2024 23:29 Nebuchad wrote:On April 07 2024 21:36 Fango wrote:On April 05 2024 23:26 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
Like Fango, you claim both that protoss design makes it impossible for protosses to win the same amount as terran or zerg, but also that it's very important that protosses retired. Those are contradictory claims. Those are not contradictory claims. I have said extremely clearly that they are both potentially contributing factors to the lack of protoss championships. You can't ignore that LotV has some issues, but you also can''t ignore that the top 6 protoss players retired, the next best refuses to play on LAN. Put it this way, the reason for the lack of protoss championships could be down to... A) Design flaws that limit skill expression B) Every good protoss player retiring or refusing to play LAN C) A combination of both. If those good protoss players hadn't retired, what would their results be? Unless nerves are in play Maxpax would definitely make top 2 protoss in most LANs, you guys are coping. Trap would be a consistent Top 4/8 in most tournament, Parting would also be a consistent top 8 player. Zest can bust out a strong run at anytime to reach the Final. Zoun is also very solid and could get top 8 as well. We just saw what Classic and Stats are doing after getting back in form. I would expect the same performance from the other top Protoss player who had retired/gone to military service. So nothing different from what the protoss players who haven't retired are doing. Except there’s only 3 or 4 of them now, and all it takes is a few to have a bad day or run into ZvP’s final boss in Serral early and you’ve very little Protoss presence going into a tournament’s final day. And it’s only relatively recently Stats started showing some good form, despite his results being bad I think he’d actually shown some good StarCraft at Katowice. Certainly better than looking at the match results anyway. It’s a shame Trap apparently isn’t even going to attempt a comeback as if he got into even close to the shape he was in he’d be a huge asset to the forces of Aiur Nerves would probably be in play, I agree. But that reads to me as a different argument from what I'm responding to. Maxpax is very good but might be hindered by nerves in tournament play is not quite the same as Maxpax can be dismissed because it's just online bullshit. If Maxpax wasn't playing I would have much different opinions on the current balance. "Except there's only 3 or 4 of them now" also applies to the other races, zergs have lost Life, DRG, Rogue, soO, ByuL, Symbol and terrans have lost Mvp, MMA, TaeJa, Innovation, TY, Marineking... That is not a specific issue. Terrans currently have Maru, Cure, Byun, Gumiho, Clem, Bunny if he’s on it, Heromarine is a very solid player. Zergs are getting thinned out with Dark approaching military service, less depth but maybe a higher peak with Serral being basically god, Reynor being an absolute monster when he’s on it and a few others like Rag or Solar who are very competitive. Rogue is back and apparently getting back in shape rather quickly, so he may be a factor soon Protoss have like herO as a proven consistent title contender. Stats is showing signs and likewise Classic. Showtime is very good but has never made that next step, Maximus Paximus doesn’t play offline events and maybe Creator goes on another run? I agree with you that Protoss can be just undertuned regardless of the talent pool, but equally the talent pool has been drained a hell of a lot compared to other races. I see this as a result oriented analysis. Cure, Gumiho, Bunny and Heromarine are perceived as solid because they're having solid results now. In this hypothetical tournament with all the great retired players, nobody who thinks that terran is going to win would count on them being the winning terran, by a mile. They're the current good terrans because they're currently having good terran results, not because terran had a bigger pool of players who have the capacity to win from the start. That is how a race is supposed to work, when great players retire, other players step up and become current greats. Rogue and Dark did that for zerg after Life Symbol and DRG went away. The difference when it comes to protoss is that nobody stepped up after those players retired, and my theory is obviously that nobody could have stepped up because it's during this period that protoss was absurdly underpowered. Now patches came through and it's imo likely that protoss is the strongest race balance wise right now, which makes it likely that some protoss players will "become championship level" now. Nobody has stepped up in forever for any race. Which makes attrition more impactful. Even Clem as a relative newcomer has been a top level player for years, and the rest of the Terran cohort are all veterans. Top Zergs it’s the same. Reynor is the relative newcomer and he’s been a relevant player for half a decade
And that absence of newcomers is evidence of something happening, namely that the Starcraft scene is soon coming to an end, and hopefully we'll get a better game than SC2 to replace it 
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Northern Ireland24995 Posts
On April 08 2024 18:15 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2024 18:05 WombaT wrote:On April 08 2024 18:00 Nebuchad wrote:On April 08 2024 17:45 WombaT wrote:On April 08 2024 17:35 Nebuchad wrote:On April 08 2024 16:57 WombaT wrote:On April 07 2024 23:29 Nebuchad wrote:On April 07 2024 21:36 Fango wrote:On April 05 2024 23:26 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 23:04 Vindicare605 wrote:
[quote]
You seriously are going to sit there and try and tell me that I waste my time posting shit to TeamLiquid that I don't actually believe. You're so incapable of coming up with any kind of logic, or argument against what I'm saying that the only thing you can do is say "nah you don't actually believe what you say."
It's pathetic honestly.
Oh and as for your GSL results, I just explained how all of the results we've seen (all 24 games worth lol) have had nothing or at the most VERY LITTLE to do with the patch and are a bigger result of the map pool update than anything else.
But you're just going to do what you always do with that information. Ignore it, because it doesn't suit your narrative. Like Fango, you claim both that protoss design makes it impossible for protosses to win the same amount as terran or zerg, but also that it's very important that protosses retired. Those are contradictory claims. Those are not contradictory claims. I have said extremely clearly that they are both potentially contributing factors to the lack of protoss championships. You can't ignore that LotV has some issues, but you also can''t ignore that the top 6 protoss players retired, the next best refuses to play on LAN. Put it this way, the reason for the lack of protoss championships could be down to... A) Design flaws that limit skill expression B) Every good protoss player retiring or refusing to play LAN C) A combination of both. If those good protoss players hadn't retired, what would their results be? Unless nerves are in play Maxpax would definitely make top 2 protoss in most LANs, you guys are coping. Nerves very much are in play though, given he’s the only top talent I can ever recall who doesn’t play LANs at all. Whatever his reasons he’s not comfortable even playing a LAN, so I feel it logically follows that if he did do so he wouldn’t perform particularly well. On April 08 2024 15:04 Nebuchad wrote:On April 08 2024 12:18 tigera6 wrote:On April 07 2024 23:29 Nebuchad wrote:On April 07 2024 21:36 Fango wrote:
[quote]
Those are not contradictory claims.
I have said extremely clearly that they are both potentially contributing factors to the lack of protoss championships. You can't ignore that LotV has some issues, but you also can''t ignore that the top 6 protoss players retired, the next best refuses to play on LAN.
Put it this way, the reason for the lack of protoss championships could be down to...
A) Design flaws that limit skill expression
B) Every good protoss player retiring or refusing to play LAN
C) A combination of both. If those good protoss players hadn't retired, what would their results be? Unless nerves are in play Maxpax would definitely make top 2 protoss in most LANs, you guys are coping. Trap would be a consistent Top 4/8 in most tournament, Parting would also be a consistent top 8 player. Zest can bust out a strong run at anytime to reach the Final. Zoun is also very solid and could get top 8 as well. We just saw what Classic and Stats are doing after getting back in form. I would expect the same performance from the other top Protoss player who had retired/gone to military service. So nothing different from what the protoss players who haven't retired are doing. Except there’s only 3 or 4 of them now, and all it takes is a few to have a bad day or run into ZvP’s final boss in Serral early and you’ve very little Protoss presence going into a tournament’s final day. And it’s only relatively recently Stats started showing some good form, despite his results being bad I think he’d actually shown some good StarCraft at Katowice. Certainly better than looking at the match results anyway. It’s a shame Trap apparently isn’t even going to attempt a comeback as if he got into even close to the shape he was in he’d be a huge asset to the forces of Aiur Nerves would probably be in play, I agree. But that reads to me as a different argument from what I'm responding to. Maxpax is very good but might be hindered by nerves in tournament play is not quite the same as Maxpax can be dismissed because it's just online bullshit. If Maxpax wasn't playing I would have much different opinions on the current balance. "Except there's only 3 or 4 of them now" also applies to the other races, zergs have lost Life, DRG, Rogue, soO, ByuL, Symbol and terrans have lost Mvp, MMA, TaeJa, Innovation, TY, Marineking... That is not a specific issue. Terrans currently have Maru, Cure, Byun, Gumiho, Clem, Bunny if he’s on it, Heromarine is a very solid player. Zergs are getting thinned out with Dark approaching military service, less depth but maybe a higher peak with Serral being basically god, Reynor being an absolute monster when he’s on it and a few others like Rag or Solar who are very competitive. Rogue is back and apparently getting back in shape rather quickly, so he may be a factor soon Protoss have like herO as a proven consistent title contender. Stats is showing signs and likewise Classic. Showtime is very good but has never made that next step, Maximus Paximus doesn’t play offline events and maybe Creator goes on another run? I agree with you that Protoss can be just undertuned regardless of the talent pool, but equally the talent pool has been drained a hell of a lot compared to other races. I see this as a result oriented analysis. Cure, Gumiho, Bunny and Heromarine are perceived as solid because they're having solid results now. In this hypothetical tournament with all the great retired players, nobody who thinks that terran is going to win would count on them being the winning terran, by a mile. They're the current good terrans because they're currently having good terran results, not because terran had a bigger pool of players who have the capacity to win from the start. That is how a race is supposed to work, when great players retire, other players step up and become current greats. Rogue and Dark did that for zerg after Life Symbol and DRG went away. The difference when it comes to protoss is that nobody stepped up after those players retired, and my theory is obviously that nobody could have stepped up because it's during this period that protoss was absurdly underpowered. Now patches came through and it's imo likely that protoss is the strongest race balance wise right now, which makes it likely that some protoss players will "become championship level" now. Nobody has stepped up in forever for any race. Which makes attrition more impactful. Even Clem as a relative newcomer has been a top level player for years, and the rest of the Terran cohort are all veterans. Top Zergs it’s the same. Reynor is the relative newcomer and he’s been a relevant player for half a decade And that absence of newcomers is evidence of something happening, namely that the Starcraft scene is soon coming to an end, and hopefully we'll get a better game than SC2 to replace it
Fingers crossed although I’m currently doubtful alas
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