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On April 05 2024 04:20 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2024 04:01 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 02:19 Fango wrote:
Stats bringing smiles to the "Protoss isn't weak, the good players just all retired" crowd. ...Or maybe a patch just went through after which protoss is probably the most favored race? People will just say anything, won't they. Stats didn't come back from military last week. Impressive how you can call the balance just a few days after the patch  But ofc we just had a patch (that helped toss) and new maps silly to say this wouldnt have any impact but stats had been on the up already before.
I didn't call the balance. I think protoss will probably be the most favored race after this patch, and this result is certainly pointing toward me being correct about this, but I don't know for sure. What I do know is that this result is not an indication that the people who think that protoss sucks because protoss players suck are right. I do know this because I have used my eyes and ears and noticed that Stats was one of the protoss players that was included in the "protoss players suck" package. So to extract him from the pack of protosses now that he's gotten a good result to claim that it's true that protoss isn't getting results because protoss players suck and Stats is just built different would be at best dishonest and at worst deeply stupid.
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On April 05 2024 05:00 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2024 04:01 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 02:19 Fango wrote:
Stats bringing smiles to the "Protoss isn't weak, the good players just all retired" crowd. ...Or maybe a patch just went through after which protoss is probably the most favored race? People will just say anything, won't they. Stats didn't come back from military last week. Or you can actually watch the games and notice that the patch is having next to no actual impact on any of the matches involving Protoss. The patch IS however having a VERY noticeable effect on TvT and a noticeable impact on TvZ. Also it's hilarious that herO, Classic and Stats all advanced to the Ro8 before the patch even happened, when Protoss was "underpowered" and now according to guys like Nebuchad are only advancing to the Ro4 after winning the same number of Bo3's they won pre-patch because Observers got buffed and Widow Mines and Cyclones got nerfed. lol.
So, in the real world Stats and Classic made the Ro8 by beating Dark, which is a PvZ, a match-up that protoss was already pretty good in in the last patch, it's PvT that is in the balance for what's going to happen in this one. In this PvZ, I also remember that Stats made the Ro8 because Dark got into a winning position after failing an all-in, but didn't bring an overseer with his army against mothership, a pretty violent mistake.
I'm therefore not sure why you want me to watch the games?
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On April 05 2024 05:59 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2024 05:00 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 04:01 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 02:19 Fango wrote:
Stats bringing smiles to the "Protoss isn't weak, the good players just all retired" crowd. ...Or maybe a patch just went through after which protoss is probably the most favored race? People will just say anything, won't they. Stats didn't come back from military last week. Or you can actually watch the games and notice that the patch is having next to no actual impact on any of the matches involving Protoss. The patch IS however having a VERY noticeable effect on TvT and a noticeable impact on TvZ. Also it's hilarious that herO, Classic and Stats all advanced to the Ro8 before the patch even happened, when Protoss was "underpowered" and now according to guys like Nebuchad are only advancing to the Ro4 after winning the same number of Bo3's they won pre-patch because Observers got buffed and Widow Mines and Cyclones got nerfed. lol. So, in the real world Stats and Classic made the Ro8 by beating Dark, which is a PvZ, a match-up that protoss was already pretty good in in the last patch, it's PvT that is in the balance for what's going to happen in this one. In this PvZ, I also remember that Stats made the Ro8 because Dark got into a winning position after failing an all-in, but didn't bring an overseer with his army against mothership, a pretty violent mistake. I'm therefore not sure why you want me to watch the games?
I just assumed you're not watching the games since if you actually ARE watching the games, then there's some logical disconnect happening somewhere that's causing you to credit the patch for Protoss advancing to the Ro4.
I don't see how you can watch these last two groups and say that the patch is the reason Stats or herO advanced, especially when Stats didn't do any better in PvT than he would have anyway.
Oh because herO won against Maru in a Bo3? Like that's never happened before lol. Or maybe the patch was the reason Byun built no Vikings against Classic who was making Carriers and Tempests in every game he played in Group A?
Yea I'm not able to explain where the logical disconnect is coming in if you were actually watching the games.
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On April 05 2024 06:09 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2024 05:59 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 05:00 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 04:01 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 02:19 Fango wrote:
Stats bringing smiles to the "Protoss isn't weak, the good players just all retired" crowd. ...Or maybe a patch just went through after which protoss is probably the most favored race? People will just say anything, won't they. Stats didn't come back from military last week. Or you can actually watch the games and notice that the patch is having next to no actual impact on any of the matches involving Protoss. The patch IS however having a VERY noticeable effect on TvT and a noticeable impact on TvZ. Also it's hilarious that herO, Classic and Stats all advanced to the Ro8 before the patch even happened, when Protoss was "underpowered" and now according to guys like Nebuchad are only advancing to the Ro4 after winning the same number of Bo3's they won pre-patch because Observers got buffed and Widow Mines and Cyclones got nerfed. lol. So, in the real world Stats and Classic made the Ro8 by beating Dark, which is a PvZ, a match-up that protoss was already pretty good in in the last patch, it's PvT that is in the balance for what's going to happen in this one. In this PvZ, I also remember that Stats made the Ro8 because Dark got into a winning position after failing an all-in, but didn't bring an overseer with his army against mothership, a pretty violent mistake. I'm therefore not sure why you want me to watch the games? I just assumed you're not watching the games since if you actually ARE watching the games, then there's some logical disconnect happening somewhere that's causing you to credit the patch for Protoss advancing to the Ro4. I don't see how you can watch these last two groups and say that the patch is the reason Stats or herO advanced, especially when Stats didn't do any better in PvT than he would have anyway. Oh because herO won against Maru in a Bo3? Like that's never happened before lol. Or maybe the patch was the reason Byun built no Vikings against Classic who was making Carriers and Tempests in every game he played in Group A? Yea I'm not able to explain where the logical disconnect is coming in if you were actually watching the games.
I don't watch the games no, I probably hate myself to an extent but not to that extent.
Would you like to discuss the claim that this result by Stats is evidence pointing toward the validity of the claim that protoss players only lose because they all happen to suck?
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On April 05 2024 06:14 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2024 06:09 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 05:59 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 05:00 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 04:01 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 02:19 Fango wrote:
Stats bringing smiles to the "Protoss isn't weak, the good players just all retired" crowd. ...Or maybe a patch just went through after which protoss is probably the most favored race? People will just say anything, won't they. Stats didn't come back from military last week. Or you can actually watch the games and notice that the patch is having next to no actual impact on any of the matches involving Protoss. The patch IS however having a VERY noticeable effect on TvT and a noticeable impact on TvZ. Also it's hilarious that herO, Classic and Stats all advanced to the Ro8 before the patch even happened, when Protoss was "underpowered" and now according to guys like Nebuchad are only advancing to the Ro4 after winning the same number of Bo3's they won pre-patch because Observers got buffed and Widow Mines and Cyclones got nerfed. lol. So, in the real world Stats and Classic made the Ro8 by beating Dark, which is a PvZ, a match-up that protoss was already pretty good in in the last patch, it's PvT that is in the balance for what's going to happen in this one. In this PvZ, I also remember that Stats made the Ro8 because Dark got into a winning position after failing an all-in, but didn't bring an overseer with his army against mothership, a pretty violent mistake. I'm therefore not sure why you want me to watch the games? I just assumed you're not watching the games since if you actually ARE watching the games, then there's some logical disconnect happening somewhere that's causing you to credit the patch for Protoss advancing to the Ro4. I don't see how you can watch these last two groups and say that the patch is the reason Stats or herO advanced, especially when Stats didn't do any better in PvT than he would have anyway. Oh because herO won against Maru in a Bo3? Like that's never happened before lol. Or maybe the patch was the reason Byun built no Vikings against Classic who was making Carriers and Tempests in every game he played in Group A? Yea I'm not able to explain where the logical disconnect is coming in if you were actually watching the games. I don't watch the games no, I probably hate myself to an extent but not to that extent. Would you like to discuss the claim that this result by Stats is evidence pointing toward the validity of the claim that protoss players only lose because they all happen to suck?
Stats is returning to form after coming back from the military. You HAVE to remember the DOZENS of times I've told this to you in the MULTIPLE threads we've argued about this. You refuse to acknowledge that Protoss players leaving for the military in Korea is a VERY BIG reason why Protoss has been struggling in the pro scene the past few years.
Stats was gone, so he couldn't contribute to the Protoss winrate. Stats needed time to get back into form after being gone from the scene for 2 years, since it's not something you can just magically turn on and off.
I've been saying since IEM Katowice that his form has been improving and I even said specifically during his IEM Katowice games that he was almost there, despite what his score looked like.
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On April 05 2024 06:23 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2024 06:14 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 06:09 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 05:59 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 05:00 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 04:01 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 02:19 Fango wrote:
Stats bringing smiles to the "Protoss isn't weak, the good players just all retired" crowd. ...Or maybe a patch just went through after which protoss is probably the most favored race? People will just say anything, won't they. Stats didn't come back from military last week. Or you can actually watch the games and notice that the patch is having next to no actual impact on any of the matches involving Protoss. The patch IS however having a VERY noticeable effect on TvT and a noticeable impact on TvZ. Also it's hilarious that herO, Classic and Stats all advanced to the Ro8 before the patch even happened, when Protoss was "underpowered" and now according to guys like Nebuchad are only advancing to the Ro4 after winning the same number of Bo3's they won pre-patch because Observers got buffed and Widow Mines and Cyclones got nerfed. lol. So, in the real world Stats and Classic made the Ro8 by beating Dark, which is a PvZ, a match-up that protoss was already pretty good in in the last patch, it's PvT that is in the balance for what's going to happen in this one. In this PvZ, I also remember that Stats made the Ro8 because Dark got into a winning position after failing an all-in, but didn't bring an overseer with his army against mothership, a pretty violent mistake. I'm therefore not sure why you want me to watch the games? I just assumed you're not watching the games since if you actually ARE watching the games, then there's some logical disconnect happening somewhere that's causing you to credit the patch for Protoss advancing to the Ro4. I don't see how you can watch these last two groups and say that the patch is the reason Stats or herO advanced, especially when Stats didn't do any better in PvT than he would have anyway. Oh because herO won against Maru in a Bo3? Like that's never happened before lol. Or maybe the patch was the reason Byun built no Vikings against Classic who was making Carriers and Tempests in every game he played in Group A? Yea I'm not able to explain where the logical disconnect is coming in if you were actually watching the games. I don't watch the games no, I probably hate myself to an extent but not to that extent. Would you like to discuss the claim that this result by Stats is evidence pointing toward the validity of the claim that protoss players only lose because they all happen to suck? Stats is returning to form after coming back from the military. You HAVE to remember the DOZENS of times I've told this to you in the MULTIPLE threads we've argued about this. You refuse to acknowledge that Protoss players leaving for the military in Korea is a VERY BIG reason why Protoss has been struggling in the pro scene the past few years. Stats was gone, so he couldn't contribute to the Protoss winrate. Stats needed time to get back into form after being gone from the scene for 2 years, since it's not something you can just magically turn on and off. I've been saying since IEM Katowice that his form has been improving and I even said specifically during his IEM Katowice games that he was almost there, despite what his score looked like.
Mate it's not that I don't remember what you say, it's that I disagree with you, and not only that I also don't really believe that you believe it yourself.
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On April 05 2024 06:33 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2024 06:23 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 06:14 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 06:09 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 05:59 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 05:00 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 04:01 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 02:19 Fango wrote:
Stats bringing smiles to the "Protoss isn't weak, the good players just all retired" crowd. ...Or maybe a patch just went through after which protoss is probably the most favored race? People will just say anything, won't they. Stats didn't come back from military last week. Or you can actually watch the games and notice that the patch is having next to no actual impact on any of the matches involving Protoss. The patch IS however having a VERY noticeable effect on TvT and a noticeable impact on TvZ. Also it's hilarious that herO, Classic and Stats all advanced to the Ro8 before the patch even happened, when Protoss was "underpowered" and now according to guys like Nebuchad are only advancing to the Ro4 after winning the same number of Bo3's they won pre-patch because Observers got buffed and Widow Mines and Cyclones got nerfed. lol. So, in the real world Stats and Classic made the Ro8 by beating Dark, which is a PvZ, a match-up that protoss was already pretty good in in the last patch, it's PvT that is in the balance for what's going to happen in this one. In this PvZ, I also remember that Stats made the Ro8 because Dark got into a winning position after failing an all-in, but didn't bring an overseer with his army against mothership, a pretty violent mistake. I'm therefore not sure why you want me to watch the games? I just assumed you're not watching the games since if you actually ARE watching the games, then there's some logical disconnect happening somewhere that's causing you to credit the patch for Protoss advancing to the Ro4. I don't see how you can watch these last two groups and say that the patch is the reason Stats or herO advanced, especially when Stats didn't do any better in PvT than he would have anyway. Oh because herO won against Maru in a Bo3? Like that's never happened before lol. Or maybe the patch was the reason Byun built no Vikings against Classic who was making Carriers and Tempests in every game he played in Group A? Yea I'm not able to explain where the logical disconnect is coming in if you were actually watching the games. I don't watch the games no, I probably hate myself to an extent but not to that extent. Would you like to discuss the claim that this result by Stats is evidence pointing toward the validity of the claim that protoss players only lose because they all happen to suck? Stats is returning to form after coming back from the military. You HAVE to remember the DOZENS of times I've told this to you in the MULTIPLE threads we've argued about this. You refuse to acknowledge that Protoss players leaving for the military in Korea is a VERY BIG reason why Protoss has been struggling in the pro scene the past few years. Stats was gone, so he couldn't contribute to the Protoss winrate. Stats needed time to get back into form after being gone from the scene for 2 years, since it's not something you can just magically turn on and off. I've been saying since IEM Katowice that his form has been improving and I even said specifically during his IEM Katowice games that he was almost there, despite what his score looked like. Mate it's not that I don't remember what you say, it's that I disagree with you, and not only that I also don't really believe that you believe it yourself.
Basically admitting you walk into threads with your fingers stuck in your ears. I even said back before Trap left to the military that Protoss was going to be in a very dark place for a while because all of the best Protoss players were gone to the military at the same time.
When herO came back and got back into shape as fast as he did, I actually thought that the worst case scenario for Protoss had been averted because I expected Protoss to suffer worse for longer. That's why I've never been on board with this Protoss whine train the last couple years because the worst case scenario I imagined never actually came to pass. Although it does stink that Parting won't be coming back since he was one of the players I was hoping would bring Protoss back both in terms of wins and in terms of being an entertaining innovator.
I'm not the only one who's been saying this about Protoss either. Not even close.
I still don't think Protoss is ever going to catch Terran or Zerg's tournament winrate. That won't happen without a redesign to the race. But things will get better for them than it was when all of their best players weren't competing.
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On April 05 2024 06:47 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2024 06:33 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 06:23 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 06:14 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 06:09 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 05:59 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 05:00 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 04:01 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 02:19 Fango wrote:
Stats bringing smiles to the "Protoss isn't weak, the good players just all retired" crowd. ...Or maybe a patch just went through after which protoss is probably the most favored race? People will just say anything, won't they. Stats didn't come back from military last week. Or you can actually watch the games and notice that the patch is having next to no actual impact on any of the matches involving Protoss. The patch IS however having a VERY noticeable effect on TvT and a noticeable impact on TvZ. Also it's hilarious that herO, Classic and Stats all advanced to the Ro8 before the patch even happened, when Protoss was "underpowered" and now according to guys like Nebuchad are only advancing to the Ro4 after winning the same number of Bo3's they won pre-patch because Observers got buffed and Widow Mines and Cyclones got nerfed. lol. So, in the real world Stats and Classic made the Ro8 by beating Dark, which is a PvZ, a match-up that protoss was already pretty good in in the last patch, it's PvT that is in the balance for what's going to happen in this one. In this PvZ, I also remember that Stats made the Ro8 because Dark got into a winning position after failing an all-in, but didn't bring an overseer with his army against mothership, a pretty violent mistake. I'm therefore not sure why you want me to watch the games? I just assumed you're not watching the games since if you actually ARE watching the games, then there's some logical disconnect happening somewhere that's causing you to credit the patch for Protoss advancing to the Ro4. I don't see how you can watch these last two groups and say that the patch is the reason Stats or herO advanced, especially when Stats didn't do any better in PvT than he would have anyway. Oh because herO won against Maru in a Bo3? Like that's never happened before lol. Or maybe the patch was the reason Byun built no Vikings against Classic who was making Carriers and Tempests in every game he played in Group A? Yea I'm not able to explain where the logical disconnect is coming in if you were actually watching the games. I don't watch the games no, I probably hate myself to an extent but not to that extent. Would you like to discuss the claim that this result by Stats is evidence pointing toward the validity of the claim that protoss players only lose because they all happen to suck? Stats is returning to form after coming back from the military. You HAVE to remember the DOZENS of times I've told this to you in the MULTIPLE threads we've argued about this. You refuse to acknowledge that Protoss players leaving for the military in Korea is a VERY BIG reason why Protoss has been struggling in the pro scene the past few years. Stats was gone, so he couldn't contribute to the Protoss winrate. Stats needed time to get back into form after being gone from the scene for 2 years, since it's not something you can just magically turn on and off. I've been saying since IEM Katowice that his form has been improving and I even said specifically during his IEM Katowice games that he was almost there, despite what his score looked like. Mate it's not that I don't remember what you say, it's that I disagree with you, and not only that I also don't really believe that you believe it yourself. Basically admitting you walk into threads with your fingers stuck in your ears. I even said back before Trap left to the military that Protoss was going to be in a very dark place for a while because all of the best Protoss players were gone to the military at the same time. When herO came back and got back into shape as fast as he did, I actually thought that the worst case scenario for Protoss had been averted because I expected Protoss to suffer worse for longer. That's why I've never been on board with this Protoss whine train the last couple years because the worst case scenario I imagined never actually came to pass. Although it does stink that Parting won't be coming back since he was one of the players I was hoping would bring Protoss back both in terms of wins and in terms of being an entertaining innovator. I'm not the only one who's been saying this about Protoss either. Not even close. I still don't think Protoss is ever going to catch Terran or Zerg's tournament winrate. That won't happen without a redesign to the race. But things will get better for them than it was when all of their best players weren't competing.
Yeah a lot of people were pushing this narrative because they didn't like protoss and they wanted the balance to not change, so that protoss would keep losing and they could watch the match-ups they like instead of watching protosses. But they couldn't really admit to that, so instead they just pretended to believe that all protoss players happen to be bad and therefore it makes sense that they keep losing. I remember, I was there too.
That's why I'm kind of happy that after the balance patches went through, protoss started performing better, as we've seen in the last two patches. In my eyes this showed that this absurd narrative, that protosses exist outside of balance somehow, is not supported by the facts. And then I entered this thread and saw the absurd claim that what's happening right now is evidence that people were right about protoss players being bad. That tickled me a little bit, so I commented.
You can still believe your narrative (and again, I do not think you do), but you can't claim that these GSL results are evidence in favor of your narrative. They are very clearly not.
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Cool argument but its irrelevant because
STATSBOYS
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STATS IS A GOD.
Omg so good. he coulda got out in 1st too. Then it woulda been 2 PvTs but now we are assured a PvT finals.
Year of Stats.
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It can true that protoss has fewer options at the top level, and lacks opportunity for skill expression compared with Z or T.
But it can also be true that all the good protoss just retired. We lost Zest, Trap, Neeb, Stats, sOs, Classic, Zoun, Dear, Patience, Hurricane, herO, even Has.
You can't realistically lose almost every protoss who has ever made a premier final in sc2 and expect the race to still win. herO, Classic, and Stats came back but only herO came close to his former peak. Imagine if the top 6 LotV Zergs (Serral, Dark, Reynor, Rogue, Solar, soO) all retired at once, the balance would feel pretty different.
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One thing I believe the patch does well is the nerfing of Widow Mine, I havent seen a big Mine hit for a while, whether its entirely players skill or not is a different thing. Also, with now Mines cant be invisible with just an Armory, its easier for Protoss to clean them up rather than didnt notice and have them shoot again. Terran doesnt seems to go for the Drilling Claws upgrade in TvP, probably because its aint worth it with their timing and such.
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On April 05 2024 11:14 tigera6 wrote:
One thing I believe the patch does well is the nerfing of Widow Mine, I havent seen a big Mine hit for a while, whether its entirely players skill or not is a different thing. Also, with now Mines cant be invisible with just an Armory, its easier for Protoss to clean them up rather than didnt notice and have them shoot again. Terran doesnt seems to go for the Drilling Claws upgrade in TvP, probably because its aint worth it with their timing and such.
My only fear about WM radius nerf is that not only alters a bit TvP balance, but TvZ way more, because lings and banes are more sensitive to it than, lets say, zealots due to their size.
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On April 05 2024 09:46 Fango wrote:
It can true that protoss has fewer options at the top level, and lacks opportunity for skill expression compared with Z or T.
But it can also be true that all the good protoss just retired. We lost Zest, Trap, Neeb, Stats, sOs, Classic, Zoun, Dear, Patience, Hurricane, herO, even Has.
You can't realistically lose almost every protoss who has ever made a premier final in sc2 and expect the race to still win. herO, Classic, and Stats came back but only herO came close to his former peak. Imagine if the top 6 LotV Zergs (Serral, Dark, Reynor, Rogue, Solar, soO) all retired at once, the balance would feel pretty different.
In the end it is both, stats getting Back in Form helps toss and the recent Balance Patches also helped toss which can be Seen in results.
The people who argued toss Players Just sucked were arguing against the recent Patches as Well.
I think pvz looked good recently idk yet If toss favored or not (but the Games looked better) and pvt i dont wanna comment on yet as we Just Had a Patch and i wanna See people adjust and then we See If pvt got better.
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On April 05 2024 09:46 Fango wrote:
It can true that protoss has fewer options at the top level, and lacks opportunity for skill expression compared with Z or T.
But it can also be true that all the good protoss just retired. We lost Zest, Trap, Neeb, Stats, sOs, Classic, Zoun, Dear, Patience, Hurricane, herO, even Has.
You can't realistically lose almost every protoss who has ever made a premier final in sc2 and expect the race to still win. herO, Classic, and Stats came back but only herO came close to his former peak. Imagine if the top 6 LotV Zergs (Serral, Dark, Reynor, Rogue, Solar, soO) all retired at once, the balance would feel pretty different.
So, technically, those can't both be true no.
If protoss has a design flaw that gives them fewer options for skill expression at the top level, then that means no one could be expressing that skill, as the option is non existent. All of those retired players could still be there and they would be limited in exactly the same way as the current players are.
This argument is used to say that if the state of balance allowed a protoss player to consistently win tournaments and be competitive with terran and zerg, then a lot of protoss players would be able to do what this protoss player can do and the race would be dramatically overpowered.
If this is true then it can't also matter who has retired.
I could also mention that the large majority of the protosses that you listed weren't getting good results when they left the game, and that's true, but for this specific conversation the first point is more important.
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Northern Ireland26265 Posts
Another fine day of SC2 action
I really favour Maru to win the whole thing, I just can’t see Stats or Cure beating him, although stranger things have happened. herO can maybe pull it off but he’ll have to bring his A game. Stats’ PvT isn’t hugely different from Classic’s stylistically and Maru dismantled Classic relatively easily, and Cure’s a great TvTer but just rarely comes out on top against Maru
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On April 05 2024 21:11 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2024 09:46 Fango wrote:
It can true that protoss has fewer options at the top level, and lacks opportunity for skill expression compared with Z or T.
But it can also be true that all the good protoss just retired. We lost Zest, Trap, Neeb, Stats, sOs, Classic, Zoun, Dear, Patience, Hurricane, herO, even Has.
You can't realistically lose almost every protoss who has ever made a premier final in sc2 and expect the race to still win. herO, Classic, and Stats came back but only herO came close to his former peak. Imagine if the top 6 LotV Zergs (Serral, Dark, Reynor, Rogue, Solar, soO) all retired at once, the balance would feel pretty different. I could also mention that the large majority of the protosses that you listed weren't getting good results when they left the game, and that's true, but for this specific conversation the first point is more important.
Huh? That's not really true.
Zest and Classic won trophies in their final year
Trap and herO were making ro4/ro8 in many events in theirs
Stats still made multiple finals in his
Neeb didn't have a proper send off, he just stopped practicing and playing in events, but he would still routinely win the NA cups before he quit entirely
Sure Dear and sOs weren't championship contenders anymore but still made some top 8s in GSL events and Katowice during their final season. They weren't slouches.
Guys like Zoun, Hurricane, sOs, and Patience could always get good runs, even if they didn't really win tournaments. And don't forget Maxpax, the best EU protoss, refusing to play LAN.
I don't see how anyone can argue that the entire top 6 protoss players of LotV retiring had no impact on protoss results. Even if some weren't dominating right before retirement, they might well have on the recent patches. And for the record I agree protoss has some design weaknesses compared with other races, but if we had lost all the good Zerg players they wouldn't win tournaments either.
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On April 05 2024 21:37 WombaT wrote:
Another fine day of SC2 action
I really favour Maru to win the whole thing, I just can’t see Stats or Cure beating him, although stranger things have happened. herO can maybe pull it off but he’ll have to bring his A game. Stats’ PvT isn’t hugely different from Classic’s stylistically and Maru dismantled Classic relatively easily, and Cure’s a great TvTer but just rarely comes out on top against Maru
Cure isn't a pushover, I'm always worried that Maru can drop a TvT series to him, especially if it's just a Bo5.
I do think Maru should be pretty heavily favored if he makes the finals though. herO can get the drop on him two out of three games in a Bo3, but doing so in a Bo7 is another story. Then again, we've seen him do it before.
I think Stats and Cure both have their work cut out for them as underdogs to make the finals let alone win, but it would be a great story for either of them to add another trophy to their case.
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On April 05 2024 07:03 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2024 06:47 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 06:33 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 06:23 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 06:14 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 06:09 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 05:59 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 05:00 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 04:01 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 02:19 Fango wrote:
Stats bringing smiles to the "Protoss isn't weak, the good players just all retired" crowd. ...Or maybe a patch just went through after which protoss is probably the most favored race? People will just say anything, won't they. Stats didn't come back from military last week. Or you can actually watch the games and notice that the patch is having next to no actual impact on any of the matches involving Protoss. The patch IS however having a VERY noticeable effect on TvT and a noticeable impact on TvZ. Also it's hilarious that herO, Classic and Stats all advanced to the Ro8 before the patch even happened, when Protoss was "underpowered" and now according to guys like Nebuchad are only advancing to the Ro4 after winning the same number of Bo3's they won pre-patch because Observers got buffed and Widow Mines and Cyclones got nerfed. lol. So, in the real world Stats and Classic made the Ro8 by beating Dark, which is a PvZ, a match-up that protoss was already pretty good in in the last patch, it's PvT that is in the balance for what's going to happen in this one. In this PvZ, I also remember that Stats made the Ro8 because Dark got into a winning position after failing an all-in, but didn't bring an overseer with his army against mothership, a pretty violent mistake. I'm therefore not sure why you want me to watch the games? I just assumed you're not watching the games since if you actually ARE watching the games, then there's some logical disconnect happening somewhere that's causing you to credit the patch for Protoss advancing to the Ro4. I don't see how you can watch these last two groups and say that the patch is the reason Stats or herO advanced, especially when Stats didn't do any better in PvT than he would have anyway. Oh because herO won against Maru in a Bo3? Like that's never happened before lol. Or maybe the patch was the reason Byun built no Vikings against Classic who was making Carriers and Tempests in every game he played in Group A? Yea I'm not able to explain where the logical disconnect is coming in if you were actually watching the games. I don't watch the games no, I probably hate myself to an extent but not to that extent. Would you like to discuss the claim that this result by Stats is evidence pointing toward the validity of the claim that protoss players only lose because they all happen to suck? Stats is returning to form after coming back from the military. You HAVE to remember the DOZENS of times I've told this to you in the MULTIPLE threads we've argued about this. You refuse to acknowledge that Protoss players leaving for the military in Korea is a VERY BIG reason why Protoss has been struggling in the pro scene the past few years. Stats was gone, so he couldn't contribute to the Protoss winrate. Stats needed time to get back into form after being gone from the scene for 2 years, since it's not something you can just magically turn on and off. I've been saying since IEM Katowice that his form has been improving and I even said specifically during his IEM Katowice games that he was almost there, despite what his score looked like. Mate it's not that I don't remember what you say, it's that I disagree with you, and not only that I also don't really believe that you believe it yourself. Basically admitting you walk into threads with your fingers stuck in your ears. I even said back before Trap left to the military that Protoss was going to be in a very dark place for a while because all of the best Protoss players were gone to the military at the same time. When herO came back and got back into shape as fast as he did, I actually thought that the worst case scenario for Protoss had been averted because I expected Protoss to suffer worse for longer. That's why I've never been on board with this Protoss whine train the last couple years because the worst case scenario I imagined never actually came to pass. Although it does stink that Parting won't be coming back since he was one of the players I was hoping would bring Protoss back both in terms of wins and in terms of being an entertaining innovator. I'm not the only one who's been saying this about Protoss either. Not even close. I still don't think Protoss is ever going to catch Terran or Zerg's tournament winrate. That won't happen without a redesign to the race. But things will get better for them than it was when all of their best players weren't competing. Yeah a lot of people were pushing this narrative because they didn't like protoss and they wanted the balance to not change, so that protoss would keep losing and they could watch the match-ups they like instead of watching protosses. But they couldn't really admit to that, so instead they just pretended to believe that all protoss players happen to be bad and therefore it makes sense that they keep losing. I remember, I was there too. That's why I'm kind of happy that after the balance patches went through, protoss started performing better, as we've seen in the last two patches. In my eyes this showed that this absurd narrative, that protosses exist outside of balance somehow, is not supported by the facts. And then I entered this thread and saw the absurd claim that what's happening right now is evidence that people were right about protoss players being bad. That tickled me a little bit, so I commented. You can still believe your narrative (and again, I do not think you do), but you can't claim that these GSL results are evidence in favor of your narrative. They are very clearly not.
You seriously are going to sit there and try and tell me that I waste my time posting shit to TeamLiquid that I don't actually believe. You're so incapable of coming up with any kind of logic, or argument against what I'm saying that the only thing you can do is say "nah you don't actually believe what you say."
It's pathetic honestly.
Oh and as for your GSL results, I just explained how all of the results we've seen (all 24 games worth lol) have had nothing or at the most VERY LITTLE to do with the patch and are a bigger result of the map pool update than anything else.
But you're just going to do what you always do with that information. Ignore it, because it doesn't suit your narrative.
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On April 05 2024 23:04 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2024 07:03 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 06:47 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 06:33 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 06:23 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 06:14 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 06:09 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 05:59 Nebuchad wrote:On April 05 2024 05:00 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2024 04:01 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
...Or maybe a patch just went through after which protoss is probably the most favored race? People will just say anything, won't they. Stats didn't come back from military last week. Or you can actually watch the games and notice that the patch is having next to no actual impact on any of the matches involving Protoss. The patch IS however having a VERY noticeable effect on TvT and a noticeable impact on TvZ. Also it's hilarious that herO, Classic and Stats all advanced to the Ro8 before the patch even happened, when Protoss was "underpowered" and now according to guys like Nebuchad are only advancing to the Ro4 after winning the same number of Bo3's they won pre-patch because Observers got buffed and Widow Mines and Cyclones got nerfed. lol. So, in the real world Stats and Classic made the Ro8 by beating Dark, which is a PvZ, a match-up that protoss was already pretty good in in the last patch, it's PvT that is in the balance for what's going to happen in this one. In this PvZ, I also remember that Stats made the Ro8 because Dark got into a winning position after failing an all-in, but didn't bring an overseer with his army against mothership, a pretty violent mistake. I'm therefore not sure why you want me to watch the games? I just assumed you're not watching the games since if you actually ARE watching the games, then there's some logical disconnect happening somewhere that's causing you to credit the patch for Protoss advancing to the Ro4. I don't see how you can watch these last two groups and say that the patch is the reason Stats or herO advanced, especially when Stats didn't do any better in PvT than he would have anyway. Oh because herO won against Maru in a Bo3? Like that's never happened before lol. Or maybe the patch was the reason Byun built no Vikings against Classic who was making Carriers and Tempests in every game he played in Group A? Yea I'm not able to explain where the logical disconnect is coming in if you were actually watching the games. I don't watch the games no, I probably hate myself to an extent but not to that extent. Would you like to discuss the claim that this result by Stats is evidence pointing toward the validity of the claim that protoss players only lose because they all happen to suck? Stats is returning to form after coming back from the military. You HAVE to remember the DOZENS of times I've told this to you in the MULTIPLE threads we've argued about this. You refuse to acknowledge that Protoss players leaving for the military in Korea is a VERY BIG reason why Protoss has been struggling in the pro scene the past few years. Stats was gone, so he couldn't contribute to the Protoss winrate. Stats needed time to get back into form after being gone from the scene for 2 years, since it's not something you can just magically turn on and off. I've been saying since IEM Katowice that his form has been improving and I even said specifically during his IEM Katowice games that he was almost there, despite what his score looked like. Mate it's not that I don't remember what you say, it's that I disagree with you, and not only that I also don't really believe that you believe it yourself. Basically admitting you walk into threads with your fingers stuck in your ears. I even said back before Trap left to the military that Protoss was going to be in a very dark place for a while because all of the best Protoss players were gone to the military at the same time. When herO came back and got back into shape as fast as he did, I actually thought that the worst case scenario for Protoss had been averted because I expected Protoss to suffer worse for longer. That's why I've never been on board with this Protoss whine train the last couple years because the worst case scenario I imagined never actually came to pass. Although it does stink that Parting won't be coming back since he was one of the players I was hoping would bring Protoss back both in terms of wins and in terms of being an entertaining innovator. I'm not the only one who's been saying this about Protoss either. Not even close. I still don't think Protoss is ever going to catch Terran or Zerg's tournament winrate. That won't happen without a redesign to the race. But things will get better for them than it was when all of their best players weren't competing. Yeah a lot of people were pushing this narrative because they didn't like protoss and they wanted the balance to not change, so that protoss would keep losing and they could watch the match-ups they like instead of watching protosses. But they couldn't really admit to that, so instead they just pretended to believe that all protoss players happen to be bad and therefore it makes sense that they keep losing. I remember, I was there too. That's why I'm kind of happy that after the balance patches went through, protoss started performing better, as we've seen in the last two patches. In my eyes this showed that this absurd narrative, that protosses exist outside of balance somehow, is not supported by the facts. And then I entered this thread and saw the absurd claim that what's happening right now is evidence that people were right about protoss players being bad. That tickled me a little bit, so I commented. You can still believe your narrative (and again, I do not think you do), but you can't claim that these GSL results are evidence in favor of your narrative. They are very clearly not. You seriously are going to sit there and try and tell me that I waste my time posting shit to TeamLiquid that I don't actually believe. You're so incapable of coming up with any kind of logic, or argument against what I'm saying that the only thing you can do is say "nah you don't actually believe what you say." It's pathetic honestly. Oh and as for your GSL results, I just explained how all of the results we've seen (all 24 games worth lol) have had nothing or at the most VERY LITTLE to do with the patch and are a bigger result of the map pool update than anything else. But you're just going to do what you always do with that information. Ignore it, because it doesn't suit your narrative.
You definitely waste your time posting on TL, yes.
It is very difficult to post an argument against what you say because you say contradictory things, and then you jump from one to the other. You also frequently make up the positions that you're arguing against in order to look good.
Like Fango, you claim both that protoss design makes it impossible for protosses to win the same amount as terran or zerg, but also that it's very important that protosses retired. Those are contradictory claims.
When people make contradictory claims like that the most likely flaw in my opinion is that they are only focused on the common logical inference that derives from the claims ("It's okay that protosses aren't winning") and it doesn't really matter to them how they get there.
In our last conversation, you argued that the patch made no difference in TvP, then realized it was silly and pretended that our disagreement was that I thought it made more of a difference in TvP than in TvZ and you thought otherwise, when I have not mentioned TvZ a single time in that entire thread.
When you assert something without evidence and you know your claim is just an opinion, you use stronger language like "I explain to you" to make it look like it's not just your opinion, but, like, who do you think you're fooling with this? We can tell you're just stating what you think, you know. I hope you're not fooling yourself.
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