[GSL 2024] Code S:S1 - Quarterfinals - Group B

On April 04 2024 16:38 Schelim wrote:
hyped for this group. i just want everybody to advance tbh.

On April 04 2024 19:55 Harris1st wrote:
Very disappointed by the amount of BS Gumigod pulled in game 1. Hopefully we some more Gumi special in game 2

On April 04 2024 20:03 Vindicare605 wrote:
You've gotta be shitting me.

On April 04 2024 20:06 Vindicare605 wrote:


I cant believe Gumiho lost this from that position. He had the game won.

On April 04 2024 20:27 KristofferAG wrote:
Spent 20 seconds feeding the cat and the game's suddenly over.

On April 04 2024 22:10 Vindicare605 wrote:
Gumiho is REALLY committed to Thors tonight and it's going to cost him. He didn't win a single game tonight where he dedicated to going heavy on Thors.

On April 04 2024 22:26 bulldozer06701 wrote:

Yep, might be one of the worst units in the game.

On April 04 2024 23:06 Vindicare605 wrote:
I'm officially a fan of the new map pool. These games have been SO MUCH better these last two nights and the maps can take a huge portion of the credit for that.

On April 05 2024 02:19 Fango wrote:
Stats bringing smiles to the "Protoss isn't weak, the good players just all retired" crowd.

On April 05 2024 04:01 Nebuchad wrote:


...Or maybe a patch just went through after which protoss is probably the most favored race? People will just say anything, won't they. Stats didn't come back from military last week.

On April 05 2024 04:20 darklycid wrote:

Impressive how you can call the balance just a few days after the patch But ofc we just had a patch (that helped toss) and new maps silly to say this wouldnt have any impact but stats had been on the up already before.

On April 05 2024 05:00 Vindicare605 wrote:


Or you can actually watch the games and notice that the patch is having next to no actual impact on any of the matches involving Protoss.

The patch IS however having a VERY noticeable effect on TvT and a noticeable impact on TvZ.

Also it's hilarious that herO, Classic and Stats all advanced to the Ro8 before the patch even happened, when Protoss was "underpowered" and now according to guys like Nebuchad are only advancing to the Ro4 after winning the same number of Bo3's they won pre-patch because Observers got buffed and Widow Mines and Cyclones got nerfed. lol.

On April 05 2024 06:09 Vindicare605 wrote:


I just assumed you're not watching the games since if you actually ARE watching the games, then there's some logical disconnect happening somewhere that's causing you to credit the patch for Protoss advancing to the Ro4.

I don't see how you can watch these last two groups and say that the patch is the reason Stats or herO advanced, especially when Stats didn't do any better in PvT than he would have anyway.

Oh because herO won against Maru in a Bo3? Like that's never happened before lol. Or maybe the patch was the reason Byun built no Vikings against Classic who was making Carriers and Tempests in every game he played in Group A?

Yea I'm not able to explain where the logical disconnect is coming in if you were actually watching the games.

On April 05 2024 06:23 Vindicare605 wrote:


Stats is returning to form after coming back from the military. You HAVE to remember the DOZENS of times I've told this to you in the MULTIPLE threads we've argued about this. You refuse to acknowledge that Protoss players leaving for the military in Korea is a VERY BIG reason why Protoss has been struggling in the pro scene the past few years.

Stats was gone, so he couldn't contribute to the Protoss winrate. Stats needed time to get back into form after being gone from the scene for 2 years, since it's not something you can just magically turn on and off.

I've been saying since IEM Katowice that his form has been improving and I even said specifically during his IEM Katowice games that he was almost there, despite what his score looked like.

On April 05 2024 06:47 Vindicare605 wrote:


Basically admitting you walk into threads with your fingers stuck in your ears. I even said back before Trap left to the military that Protoss was going to be in a very dark place for a while because all of the best Protoss players were gone to the military at the same time.

When herO came back and got back into shape as fast as he did, I actually thought that the worst case scenario for Protoss had been averted because I expected Protoss to suffer worse for longer. That's why I've never been on board with this Protoss whine train the last couple years because the worst case scenario I imagined never actually came to pass. Although it does stink that Parting won't be coming back since he was one of the players I was hoping would bring Protoss back both in terms of wins and in terms of being an entertaining innovator.

I'm not the only one who's been saying this about Protoss either. Not even close.

I still don't think Protoss is ever going to catch Terran or Zerg's tournament winrate. That won't happen without a redesign to the race. But things will get better for them than it was when all of their best players weren't competing.

On April 05 2024 09:46 Fango wrote:
It can true that protoss has fewer options at the top level, and lacks opportunity for skill expression compared with Z or T.

But it can also be true that all the good protoss just retired. We lost Zest, Trap, Neeb, Stats, sOs, Classic, Zoun, Dear, Patience, Hurricane, herO, even Has.

You can't realistically lose almost every protoss who has ever made a premier final in sc2 and expect the race to still win. herO, Classic, and Stats came back but only herO came close to his former peak. Imagine if the top 6 LotV Zergs (Serral, Dark, Reynor, Rogue, Solar, soO) all retired at once, the balance would feel pretty different.

On April 05 2024 09:46 Fango wrote:
It can true that protoss has fewer options at the top level, and lacks opportunity for skill expression compared with Z or T.

But it can also be true that all the good protoss just retired. We lost Zest, Trap, Neeb, Stats, sOs, Classic, Zoun, Dear, Patience, Hurricane, herO, even Has.

You can't realistically lose almost every protoss who has ever made a premier final in sc2 and expect the race to still win. herO, Classic, and Stats came back but only herO came close to his former peak. Imagine if the top 6 LotV Zergs (Serral, Dark, Reynor, Rogue, Solar, soO) all retired at once, the balance would feel pretty different.

On April 05 2024 23:04 Vindicare605 wrote:



You seriously are going to sit there and try and tell me that I waste my time posting shit to TeamLiquid that I don't actually believe. You're so incapable of coming up with any kind of logic, or argument against what I'm saying that the only thing you can do is say "nah you don't actually believe what you say."

It's pathetic honestly.

Oh and as for your GSL results, I just explained how all of the results we've seen (all 24 games worth lol) have had nothing or at the most VERY LITTLE to do with the patch and are a bigger result of the map pool update than anything else.

But you're just going to do what you always do with that information. Ignore it, because it doesn't suit your narrative.

On April 05 2024 22:32 Vindicare605 wrote:


Cure isn't a pushover, I'm always worried that Maru can drop a TvT series to him, especially if it's just a Bo5.

I do think Maru should be pretty heavily favored if he makes the finals though. herO can get the drop on him two out of three games in a Bo3, but doing so in a Bo7 is another story. Then again, we've seen him do it before.

I think Stats and Cure both have their work cut out for them as underdogs to make the finals let alone win, but it would be a great story for either of them to add another trophy to their case.

On April 06 2024 02:02 Vindicare605 wrote:


No they are not. And this is something you NEVER seem to understand because you seemingly can't understand the concept that "balance" and "design" are two different words that mean two different things.

Until you are able to wrap your head around this VERY basic difference in language, you'll never be able to grasp the more complicated concepts.

Statement one is talking about the hypothetical scenario that even in a perfectly balanced game, Protoss is designed in such a way that it has a lower skill ceiling and a lower skill floor than the other 2 races. This means that given the same level of skill across all players, Protoss players are fundamentally limited from being able to express that skill at the highest level as consistently as players that play Zerg and Terran.

Try and wrap your mind around that statement.

Statement number 2, is the very NOT hypothetical scenario, of the best players that play Protoss are currently not playing the game so there is an actual measurable gap between the number of top skilled Protoss players and top players of Terran and Zerg.

The two statements have nothing to do with one another and are talking about two totally different things.

On April 07 2024 22:00 Durnuu wrote:

MaxPax has yet to win an non-weekly online tournament, the fact that he doesn't play offline is irrelevant to protoss results

On April 07 2024 21:36 Fango wrote:

Those are not contradictory claims.

I have said extremely clearly that they are both potentially contributing factors to the lack of protoss championships. You can't ignore that LotV has some issues, but you also can''t ignore that the top 6 protoss players retired, the next best refuses to play on LAN.

Put it this way, the reason for the lack of protoss championships could be down to...

A) Design flaws that limit skill expression
B) Every good protoss player retiring or refusing to play LAN
C) A combination of both.

On April 07 2024 23:29 Nebuchad wrote:


If those good protoss players hadn't retired, what would their results be?

Unless nerves are in play Maxpax would definitely make top 2 protoss in most LANs, you guys are coping.

On April 07 2024 23:29 Nebuchad wrote:


If those good protoss players hadn't retired, what would their results be?

Unless nerves are in play Maxpax would definitely make top 2 protoss in most LANs, you guys are coping.

On April 08 2024 12:18 tigera6 wrote:

Trap would be a consistent Top 4/8 in most tournament, Parting would also be a consistent top 8 player. Zest can bust out a strong run at anytime to reach the Final. Zoun is also very solid and could get top 8 as well.
We just saw what Classic and Stats are doing after getting back in form. I would expect the same performance from the other top Protoss player who had retired/gone to military service.

On April 07 2024 23:29 Nebuchad wrote:


If those good protoss players hadn't retired, what would their results be?

Unless nerves are in play Maxpax would definitely make top 2 protoss in most LANs, you guys are coping.

On April 08 2024 15:04 Nebuchad wrote:


So nothing different from what the protoss players who haven't retired are doing.

On April 08 2024 16:57 WombaT wrote:

Nerves very much are in play though, given he’s the only top talent I can ever recall who doesn’t play LANs at all.

Whatever his reasons he’s not comfortable even playing a LAN, so I feel it logically follows that if he did do so he wouldn’t perform particularly well.


Except there’s only 3 or 4 of them now, and all it takes is a few to have a bad day or run into ZvP’s final boss in Serral early and you’ve very little Protoss presence going into a tournament’s final day.

And it’s only relatively recently Stats started showing some good form, despite his results being bad I think he’d actually shown some good StarCraft at Katowice. Certainly better than looking at the match results anyway.

It’s a shame Trap apparently isn’t even going to attempt a comeback as if he got into even close to the shape he was in he’d be a huge asset to the forces of Aiur

On April 08 2024 17:35 Nebuchad wrote:


Nerves would probably be in play, I agree. But that reads to me as a different argument from what I'm responding to. Maxpax is very good but might be hindered by nerves in tournament play is not quite the same as Maxpax can be dismissed because it's just online bullshit. If Maxpax wasn't playing I would have much different opinions on the current balance.

"Except there's only 3 or 4 of them now" also applies to the other races, zergs have lost Life, DRG, Rogue, soO, ByuL, Symbol and terrans have lost Mvp, MMA, TaeJa, Innovation, TY, Marineking... That is not a specific issue.

On April 08 2024 17:45 WombaT wrote:

Terrans currently have Maru, Cure, Byun, Gumiho, Clem, Bunny if he’s on it, Heromarine is a very solid player.

Zergs are getting thinned out with Dark approaching military service, less depth but maybe a higher peak with Serral being basically god, Reynor being an absolute monster when he’s on it and a few others like Rag or Solar who are very competitive. Rogue is back and apparently getting back in shape rather quickly, so he may be a factor soon

Protoss have like herO as a proven consistent title contender. Stats is showing signs and likewise Classic. Showtime is very good but has never made that next step, Maximus Paximus doesn’t play offline events and maybe Creator goes on another run?

I agree with you that Protoss can be just undertuned regardless of the talent pool, but equally the talent pool has been drained a hell of a lot compared to other races.

On April 08 2024 18:00 Nebuchad wrote:


I see this as a result oriented analysis. Cure, Gumiho, Bunny and Heromarine are perceived as solid because they're having solid results now. In this hypothetical tournament with all the great retired players, nobody who thinks that terran is going to win would count on them being the winning terran, by a mile. They're the current good terrans because they're currently having good terran results, not because terran had a bigger pool of players who have the capacity to win from the start.

That is how a race is supposed to work, when great players retire, other players step up and become current greats. Rogue and Dark did that for zerg after Life Symbol and DRG went away. The difference when it comes to protoss is that nobody stepped up after those players retired, and my theory is obviously that nobody could have stepped up because it's during this period that protoss was absurdly underpowered. Now patches came through and it's imo likely that protoss is the strongest race balance wise right now, which makes it likely that some protoss players will "become championship level" now.

On April 08 2024 18:05 WombaT wrote:

Nobody has stepped up in forever for any race. Which makes attrition more impactful.

Even Clem as a relative newcomer has been a top level player for years, and the rest of the Terran cohort are all veterans.

Top Zergs it’s the same. Reynor is the relative newcomer and he’s been a relevant player for half a decade

On April 08 2024 18:15 Nebuchad wrote:


And that absence of newcomers is evidence of something happening, namely that the Starcraft scene is soon coming to an end, and hopefully we'll get a better game than SC2 to replace it