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On March 28 2024 21:45 Vindicare605 wrote:
I don't know what Byun's gameplan is here. That attack at the 4th did nothing. The nexus survived all the tech survived he just stood there killing nothing until he lost his ravens and his front line.
Yeah... He really needed to do something more there. I thought he was gonna stim in to the natural/main or something but who knows how that would have turned out.
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On March 28 2024 21:46 Captain Peabody wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2024 21:38 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 28 2024 21:35 Captain Peabody wrote:
wow it's almost like the people who said that with a few balance changes Protoss would win more and it wasn't just that all the top Protosses were bad were right all along!!!!!!!
lol at people calling to revert the patch as soon as Maru loses Oh please. You let herO build a proxy Gateway in your natural and you're going to lose regardless of small balance changes. I mean you're absolutely right that the amount of variance from game to game based on strategies and skill and individual choices and even luck is always going to be massively more impactful than small balance changes. arguably even just the morale boost from Protoss doing well in the Ro16 and the strategic innovations we've seen from Korean Protoss recently in PvT have had more impact. but I think it would be silly not to acknowledge that, as virtually every Protoss pro I've heard from has said, the patch did help weaken some of the most crushing strats in PvT and in so doing open up some strategic diversity and room for experimentation. and I think you can see that in the way herO and Classic have played, if not necessarily in the way things have turned out--with a slightly weakened Cyclone, Protoss has more scope for strat diversity and aggression in the early game, and with slightly weakened mines and liberators there's less tunnel-vision fear of just avoiding Terran getting to an unstoppable ghost-Liberator army. ofc it's historically the case that Protoss just does better on new maps and right after a new patch. and the psychological impact on Terrans of "getting nerfed" and having to figure out new maps is also a thing. which is why it would be absurd to undo the patch after a few days because some Protoss won a few games. it may well be the case that Terran will quickly figure things out and PvT will go back to being heavily Terran-favored again. we really don't know. still it's a nice change
Even if everything you said was true. It is literally IMPOSSIBLE to infer all of that with any kind of statistical significance, from a single Bo3, regardless of how much variance was actually in it.
And I don't think everything you said was true. I saw almost nothing in that series that was the result of the balance patch. The maps? Yes. The patch? No.
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Byun looked alright to start the night but looked like he completely lost his way after he threw his game 2 vs herO. Just looked lost after that.
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France12911 Posts
On March 28 2024 21:45 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2024 21:30 Poopi wrote:On March 28 2024 21:08 darklycid wrote:On March 28 2024 21:08 Poopi wrote:
This series was funny though, but yeah the patch seems quite bad so far
Hopefully Maru can still qualify so what part of the games is the patches fault? Virtually every part? From g1 (widow mine + cyclone being bad), to g2 (mostly widow mine being bad and strength of protoss favoring slow play with tanks from terran) Lol so WM is Bad now because the warning has massive Impact on pro Level and the cyclone is now Bad as Well because of 2 Games without a Stargate Opener. And the 2nd Game is the Patch because of slow Play? Clown Takes.
Time will tell anyways 
protoss was quite fine in PvT before
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On March 28 2024 21:35 Captain Peabody wrote:
wow it's almost like the people who said that with a few balance changes Protoss would win more and it wasn't just that all the top Protosses were bad were right all along!!!!!!!
Unbelievable, who could have predicted this!
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Any good games/series so far?
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On March 28 2024 21:49 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2024 21:46 Captain Peabody wrote:On March 28 2024 21:38 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 28 2024 21:35 Captain Peabody wrote:
wow it's almost like the people who said that with a few balance changes Protoss would win more and it wasn't just that all the top Protosses were bad were right all along!!!!!!!
lol at people calling to revert the patch as soon as Maru loses Oh please. You let herO build a proxy Gateway in your natural and you're going to lose regardless of small balance changes. I mean you're absolutely right that the amount of variance from game to game based on strategies and skill and individual choices and even luck is always going to be massively more impactful than small balance changes. arguably even just the morale boost from Protoss doing well in the Ro16 and the strategic innovations we've seen from Korean Protoss recently in PvT have had more impact. but I think it would be silly not to acknowledge that, as virtually every Protoss pro I've heard from has said, the patch did help weaken some of the most crushing strats in PvT and in so doing open up some strategic diversity and room for experimentation. and I think you can see that in the way herO and Classic have played, if not necessarily in the way things have turned out--with a slightly weakened Cyclone, Protoss has more scope for strat diversity and aggression in the early game, and with slightly weakened mines and liberators there's less tunnel-vision fear of just avoiding Terran getting to an unstoppable ghost-Liberator army. ofc it's historically the case that Protoss just does better on new maps and right after a new patch. and the psychological impact on Terrans of "getting nerfed" and having to figure out new maps is also a thing. which is why it would be absurd to undo the patch after a few days because some Protoss won a few games. it may well be the case that Terran will quickly figure things out and PvT will go back to being heavily Terran-favored again. we really don't know. still it's a nice change Even if everything you said was true. It is literally IMPOSSIBLE to infer all of that with any kind of statistical significance, from a single Bo3, regardless of how much variance was actually in it. And I don't think everything you said was true. I saw almost nothing in that series that was the result of the balance patch, the maps? Yes, the patch, no.
I mean I'm not making a statistical argument nor is statistics the means by which balance in individual games and series is affected--people make choices and things go well or badly. but I agree there's no point to trying to infer the total state of balance at this point in the patch cycle. more importantly these have been great games and Classic and herO have played very well. idk if Maru losing to herO is a sign that he's underperforming even, but Byun did feel somewhat one-dimensional and "figured out" this series and made a lot of mistakes. we'll see how Classic does vs Maru on the rematch.
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On March 28 2024 21:57 Pandain wrote:
Any good games/series so far?
The first two series were really good, Maru vs Classic game 1 probably has the highlight of the night. I don't think Maru vs herO was a good match since it was mostly build order wins.
Byun vs Classic is a perfect "if you have time" series.
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On March 28 2024 21:52 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2024 21:45 darklycid wrote:On March 28 2024 21:30 Poopi wrote:On March 28 2024 21:08 darklycid wrote:On March 28 2024 21:08 Poopi wrote:
This series was funny though, but yeah the patch seems quite bad so far
Hopefully Maru can still qualify so what part of the games is the patches fault? Virtually every part? From g1 (widow mine + cyclone being bad), to g2 (mostly widow mine being bad and strength of protoss favoring slow play with tanks from terran) Lol so WM is Bad now because the warning has massive Impact on pro Level and the cyclone is now Bad as Well because of 2 Games without a Stargate Opener. And the 2nd Game is the Patch because of slow Play? Clown Takes. Time will tell anyways protoss was quite fine in PvT before
If you think pvt was fine before because maxpax can win ESL weeklies idk what to Tell you.
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On March 28 2024 21:59 Captain Peabody wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2024 21:49 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 28 2024 21:46 Captain Peabody wrote:On March 28 2024 21:38 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 28 2024 21:35 Captain Peabody wrote:
wow it's almost like the people who said that with a few balance changes Protoss would win more and it wasn't just that all the top Protosses were bad were right all along!!!!!!!
lol at people calling to revert the patch as soon as Maru loses Oh please. You let herO build a proxy Gateway in your natural and you're going to lose regardless of small balance changes. I mean you're absolutely right that the amount of variance from game to game based on strategies and skill and individual choices and even luck is always going to be massively more impactful than small balance changes. arguably even just the morale boost from Protoss doing well in the Ro16 and the strategic innovations we've seen from Korean Protoss recently in PvT have had more impact. but I think it would be silly not to acknowledge that, as virtually every Protoss pro I've heard from has said, the patch did help weaken some of the most crushing strats in PvT and in so doing open up some strategic diversity and room for experimentation. and I think you can see that in the way herO and Classic have played, if not necessarily in the way things have turned out--with a slightly weakened Cyclone, Protoss has more scope for strat diversity and aggression in the early game, and with slightly weakened mines and liberators there's less tunnel-vision fear of just avoiding Terran getting to an unstoppable ghost-Liberator army. ofc it's historically the case that Protoss just does better on new maps and right after a new patch. and the psychological impact on Terrans of "getting nerfed" and having to figure out new maps is also a thing. which is why it would be absurd to undo the patch after a few days because some Protoss won a few games. it may well be the case that Terran will quickly figure things out and PvT will go back to being heavily Terran-favored again. we really don't know. still it's a nice change Even if everything you said was true. It is literally IMPOSSIBLE to infer all of that with any kind of statistical significance, from a single Bo3, regardless of how much variance was actually in it. And I don't think everything you said was true. I saw almost nothing in that series that was the result of the balance patch, the maps? Yes, the patch, no. I mean I'm not making a statistical argument nor is statistics the means by which balance in individual games and series is affected--people make choices and things go well or badly. but I agree there's no point to trying to infer the total state of balance at this point in the patch cycle. more importantly these have been great games and Classic and herO have played very well. idk if Maru losing to herO is a sign that he's underperforming even, but Byun did feel somewhat one-dimensional and "figured out" this series and made a lot of mistakes. we'll see how Classic does vs Maru on the rematch.
For the record, I don't think Maru's loss to herO shows anything other than just what he prepared for the series. It was a very typical Maru series where he has a gameplan in his head that he is going to stubbornly insist on using even if it doesn't fit the opponent he is facing. He does this a LOT as any Maru fan should very well know.
Put him vs herO in a Bo7 and I'd still say he's heavily favored on winning it. herO took 2 games off of him, he's taken more in the past and Maru's come back and won. It's not a big deal at all.
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On March 28 2024 22:01 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2024 21:52 Poopi wrote:On March 28 2024 21:45 darklycid wrote:On March 28 2024 21:30 Poopi wrote:On March 28 2024 21:08 darklycid wrote:On March 28 2024 21:08 Poopi wrote:
This series was funny though, but yeah the patch seems quite bad so far
Hopefully Maru can still qualify so what part of the games is the patches fault? Virtually every part? From g1 (widow mine + cyclone being bad), to g2 (mostly widow mine being bad and strength of protoss favoring slow play with tanks from terran) Lol so WM is Bad now because the warning has massive Impact on pro Level and the cyclone is now Bad as Well because of 2 Games without a Stargate Opener. And the 2nd Game is the Patch because of slow Play? Clown Takes. Time will tell anyways protoss was quite fine in PvT before If you think pvt was fine before because maxpax can win ESL weeklies idk what to Tell you.
Classic was more than capable of beating Byun pre-patch. herO is always capable of beating Maru (in a Bo3 at least). I don't know what you've seen today that tells you that there's been some big shake up in the meta.
When Nightmare and Creator start beating Maru and Cure then I'll worry about the state of the PvT meta.
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Cyclones pushed oracles Out of the Meta so hard terrans forgot they can exist
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I cant decide if going for the Tempests so fast saved Classic there or are the reason he lost his third because he didnt have enough ground units.
Either way Maru's ahead in tempo now.
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very clean push from Maru
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Do Tempest ever work in PvT?
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On March 28 2024 22:15 Tsubbi wrote:
Do Tempest ever work in PvT?
Yea when they are proxied with a shield battery.
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yeah that tempest strat didn't work. Seems like a good idea if you can play a longer game and pick off units and get value, but he was already behind and Maru just built Vikings and went for the throat
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The fact that Classic is playing phoenix colossus is probably hamstringing him, it's a style that is designed to be very good at defending things that are no longer very good, other styles are better suited for today.
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Man look at the patch ripping terran apart.
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Lol. These Protoss have left themselves open to SCV pulls all night. Finally pulled the trigger on one and it ends this lopsided.
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EPT
