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On February 11 2024 20:33 Zergiica wrote:
oh man... is there a point to watch this game anymore? even an amateur can tell zerg is just to fkin strong. you can be 30-40% less skilled and still be on pair with an opponent. clem was much better in 2nd game but you can't when you have disadvantage from the beginning.
it was sad few yrs ago but i was hoping developers will balance this game i always loved (to hate). nothing, they just left zerg too strong. and there is not any new players coming so this is it, serral (zergs) will dominat until game dies or their wrists slow down.
It really just feels like queens make Zerg early game too forgiving. Meanwhile late game tools from Zerg are too punishing. A single nydus or burrow infestor fungal ends the game.
Nydus is like a nuke except better.
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On February 11 2024 20:53 Acrofales wrote:
Impressive. And unless I'm mistaken that whole game 3 he forgot Adrenal Glands. Useless upgrade, who needs it?!
When Serral gets so much value from his Banelings because Clem doesn't have anything to counter them, what do you need Adrenal Glands for?
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With Reynor and Solar out, there is no contestant to Serral
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serral real expressive today, cool to see
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On February 11 2024 20:54 Brutaxilos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2024 20:33 Zergiica wrote:
oh man... is there a point to watch this game anymore? even an amateur can tell zerg is just to fkin strong. you can be 30-40% less skilled and still be on pair with an opponent. clem was much better in 2nd game but you can't when you have disadvantage from the beginning.
it was sad few yrs ago but i was hoping developers will balance this game i always loved (to hate). nothing, they just left zerg too strong. and there is not any new players coming so this is it, serral (zergs) will dominat until game dies or their wrists slow down. It really just feels like queens make Zerg early game too forgiving. Meanwhile late game tools from Zerg are too punishing. A single nydus or burrow infestor fungal ends the game. Nydus is like a nuke except better.
Oh and this is the nerfed version of the Nydus worm. Don't forget 2019 where Blizzard decided that Zerg needed those bad boys buffed rofl.
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On February 11 2024 20:55 tad wrote:
With Reynor and Solar out, there is no contestant to Serral
Have faith in Raganagod!
You might be right though.
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Feels like Serral's ZvZ swings from wild vulnerability to straight dominance--guess we'll see which is which soon!
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Northern Ireland26688 Posts
On February 11 2024 20:51 Vindicare605 wrote:
Yea, I dont know why Clem thinks he can win in a defensive late game without using Siege Tanks. This isn't the first time I've seen him do this either.
It’s just a tricky transition I guess, he’s not really playing for it as such.
He’s playing a tempo game that tanks don’t really suit, but he’s failing to actually kill Serral, or even really cripple him so he’s got to tech up and switch to a plan B
When Maru plays defensively it feels he’s chosen that as plan A, he’s not trying to switch to plan B in the middle of it. I’m still irked that Maru dismantled Reynor playing like that last time, only to decide he’d start fucking around haha.
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On February 11 2024 20:54 Brutaxilos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2024 20:33 Zergiica wrote:
oh man... is there a point to watch this game anymore? even an amateur can tell zerg is just to fkin strong. you can be 30-40% less skilled and still be on pair with an opponent. clem was much better in 2nd game but you can't when you have disadvantage from the beginning.
it was sad few yrs ago but i was hoping developers will balance this game i always loved (to hate). nothing, they just left zerg too strong. and there is not any new players coming so this is it, serral (zergs) will dominat until game dies or their wrists slow down. It really just feels like queens make Zerg early game too forgiving. Meanwhile late game tools from Zerg are too punishing. A single nydus or burrow infestor fungal ends the game. Nydus is like a nuke except better.
I think Infestor burrow is an incredibly exciting mechanic. I also don't think it often turns a game from 50-50 to 100-0. Instead, I think it offers some type of reasonable comeback mechanic or it's a tool that you can use to end a game where you are already far ahead a bit faster. That seems reasonable to me.
But with nydus it's true that it too easily can turn a close game into something that's over.
Game1 ending like that was a bit BS and the only real thing terrans can do to counter that is to prevent the Nydus from going up in the first place.
Personally I rather have the Nydus be a bit cheaper/faster to produce, but unload units much slower.
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On February 11 2024 20:58 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2024 20:51 Vindicare605 wrote:
Yea, I dont know why Clem thinks he can win in a defensive late game without using Siege Tanks. This isn't the first time I've seen him do this either. It’s just a tricky transition I guess, he’s not really playing for it as such. He’s playing a tempo game that tanks don’t really suit, but he’s failing to actually kill Serral, or even really cripple him so he’s got to tech up and switch to a plan B When Maru plays defensively it feels he’s chosen that as plan A, he’s not trying to switch to plan B in the middle of it. I’m still irked that Maru dismantled Reynor playing like that last time, only to decide he’d start fucking around haha.
If that's the case then that's even worse for Clem for not recognizing where the game was at that point. He hadn't done ANY damage to Serral in that game, not a single hatchery and very minimal drone kills. Despite wanting to play a tempo style he spent as much of that early and midgame defending as he did attacking.
By the time the Lurkers were attacking him he needed to already be transitioning to full on defense, there was no way he was going to be able to go back on offense unless Serral makes a MASSIVE mistake.
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On February 11 2024 20:58 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2024 20:51 Vindicare605 wrote:
Yea, I dont know why Clem thinks he can win in a defensive late game without using Siege Tanks. This isn't the first time I've seen him do this either. It’s just a tricky transition I guess, he’s not really playing for it as such. He’s playing a tempo game that tanks don’t really suit, but he’s failing to actually kill Serral, or even really cripple him so he’s got to tech up and switch to a plan B When Maru plays defensively it feels he’s chosen that as plan A, he’s not trying to switch to plan B in the middle of it. I’m still irked that Maru dismantled Reynor playing like that last time, only to decide he’d start fucking around haha.
What is it that prevents Clem from adding a few tanks? Adding a tech lab to the factory?
I must say over this tournament (didn't watch the game against Shin), but vs both solar and serral, the widow mines really didn't do much? Feels to me Zergs have become really good at minimizing damage taken vs Widow Mines.
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On February 11 2024 21:02 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2024 20:58 WombaT wrote:On February 11 2024 20:51 Vindicare605 wrote:
Yea, I dont know why Clem thinks he can win in a defensive late game without using Siege Tanks. This isn't the first time I've seen him do this either. It’s just a tricky transition I guess, he’s not really playing for it as such. He’s playing a tempo game that tanks don’t really suit, but he’s failing to actually kill Serral, or even really cripple him so he’s got to tech up and switch to a plan B When Maru plays defensively it feels he’s chosen that as plan A, he’s not trying to switch to plan B in the middle of it. I’m still irked that Maru dismantled Reynor playing like that last time, only to decide he’d start fucking around haha. What is it that prevents Clem from adding a few tanks? Adding a tech lab to the factory? I must say over this tournament (didn't watch the game against Shin), but vs both solar and serral, the widow mines really didn't do much? Feels to me Zergs have become really good at minimizing damage taken vs Widow Mines.
Don't really think widow mines are necessarily about the damage that they're dealing which admittedly has been rather low this tournament, but about the amount of attention they require to deal with, not just microing against them taking a good bunch of clicks, but also things like removing them when you don't have an overseer around already, that seems to me like something they're very good at and that's what Clem's style is generally built to do so it fits him well
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On February 11 2024 21:02 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2024 20:58 WombaT wrote:On February 11 2024 20:51 Vindicare605 wrote:
Yea, I dont know why Clem thinks he can win in a defensive late game without using Siege Tanks. This isn't the first time I've seen him do this either. It’s just a tricky transition I guess, he’s not really playing for it as such. He’s playing a tempo game that tanks don’t really suit, but he’s failing to actually kill Serral, or even really cripple him so he’s got to tech up and switch to a plan B When Maru plays defensively it feels he’s chosen that as plan A, he’s not trying to switch to plan B in the middle of it. I’m still irked that Maru dismantled Reynor playing like that last time, only to decide he’d start fucking around haha. What is it that prevents Clem from adding a few tanks? Adding a tech lab to the factory? I must say over this tournament (didn't watch the game against Shin), but vs both solar and serral, the widow mines really didn't do much? Feels to me Zergs have become really good at minimizing damage taken vs Widow Mines.
You can't abuse medivac pickups with expensive units immobilized at the edge of the creep.
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On February 11 2024 21:05 Kori wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2024 21:02 Hider wrote:On February 11 2024 20:58 WombaT wrote:On February 11 2024 20:51 Vindicare605 wrote:
Yea, I dont know why Clem thinks he can win in a defensive late game without using Siege Tanks. This isn't the first time I've seen him do this either. It’s just a tricky transition I guess, he’s not really playing for it as such. He’s playing a tempo game that tanks don’t really suit, but he’s failing to actually kill Serral, or even really cripple him so he’s got to tech up and switch to a plan B When Maru plays defensively it feels he’s chosen that as plan A, he’s not trying to switch to plan B in the middle of it. I’m still irked that Maru dismantled Reynor playing like that last time, only to decide he’d start fucking around haha. What is it that prevents Clem from adding a few tanks? Adding a tech lab to the factory? I must say over this tournament (didn't watch the game against Shin), but vs both solar and serral, the widow mines really didn't do much? Feels to me Zergs have become really good at minimizing damage taken vs Widow Mines. Don't really think widow mines are necessarily about the damage that they're dealing which admittedly has been rather low this tournament, but about the amount of attention they require to deal with, not just microing against them taking a good bunch of clicks, but also things like removing them when you don't have an overseer around already, that seems to me like something they're very good at and that's what Clem's style is generally built to do so it fits him well
Definitely. But I wonder if it makes sense to attempt to switch a bit earlier when you identify you can no longer beat them by "outpacing" them.
You can't abuse medivac pickups with expensive units immobilized at the edge of the creep.
I meant in game 3 when he decided to play defensive.
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On February 11 2024 21:02 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2024 20:58 WombaT wrote:On February 11 2024 20:51 Vindicare605 wrote:
Yea, I dont know why Clem thinks he can win in a defensive late game without using Siege Tanks. This isn't the first time I've seen him do this either. It’s just a tricky transition I guess, he’s not really playing for it as such. He’s playing a tempo game that tanks don’t really suit, but he’s failing to actually kill Serral, or even really cripple him so he’s got to tech up and switch to a plan B When Maru plays defensively it feels he’s chosen that as plan A, he’s not trying to switch to plan B in the middle of it. I’m still irked that Maru dismantled Reynor playing like that last time, only to decide he’d start fucking around haha. What is it that prevents Clem from adding a few tanks? Adding a tech lab to the factory? I must say over this tournament (didn't watch the game against Shin), but vs both solar and serral, the widow mines really didn't do much? Feels to me Zergs have become really good at minimizing damage taken vs Widow Mines.
I think it really depends on where you can force the engagements. Serral is extremely good at choosing where to engage. Other zergs take far bigger widowmine hits because they are forced to fight in places where the marines can just continue to pull back past mine after mine, allowing the mines to utterly decimate the banelings. But Serral somehow just doesn't do that. He didn't let Clem set up like that, which meant the mines were exposed and easily baited by a single ling or even tracked into friendly fire splash. But I don't think I've seen anybody else do that. Solar yesterday lost a huge army to widowmines.
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Northern Ireland26688 Posts
On February 11 2024 21:00 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2024 20:58 WombaT wrote:On February 11 2024 20:51 Vindicare605 wrote:
Yea, I dont know why Clem thinks he can win in a defensive late game without using Siege Tanks. This isn't the first time I've seen him do this either. It’s just a tricky transition I guess, he’s not really playing for it as such. He’s playing a tempo game that tanks don’t really suit, but he’s failing to actually kill Serral, or even really cripple him so he’s got to tech up and switch to a plan B When Maru plays defensively it feels he’s chosen that as plan A, he’s not trying to switch to plan B in the middle of it. I’m still irked that Maru dismantled Reynor playing like that last time, only to decide he’d start fucking around haha. If that's the case then that's even worse for Clem for not recognizing where the game was at that point. He hadn't done ANY damage to Serral in that game, not a single hatchery and very minimal drone kills. Despite wanting to play a tempo style he spent as much of that early and midgame defending as he did attacking. By the time the Lurkers were attacking him he needed to already be transitioning to full on defense, there was no way he was going to be able to go back on offense unless Serral makes a MASSIVE mistake.
Aye I do think you’re right there, needed to slow it down and turtle hardcore for a while.
Just easier said than done trying to put out some fires that Serral was starting to light, getting those positions set and swapping facs while trying to hold on to those two outlying buildings.
Against someone as good as a Serral I think Maru has shown it’s doable but you have to pre-empt it rather than try to do it reactively. You want to reinforce positions so they don’t take huge damage, rather than trying to build them when the walls are already starting to fall.
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On February 11 2024 21:07 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2024 21:05 Kori wrote:On February 11 2024 21:02 Hider wrote:On February 11 2024 20:58 WombaT wrote:On February 11 2024 20:51 Vindicare605 wrote:
Yea, I dont know why Clem thinks he can win in a defensive late game without using Siege Tanks. This isn't the first time I've seen him do this either. It’s just a tricky transition I guess, he’s not really playing for it as such. He’s playing a tempo game that tanks don’t really suit, but he’s failing to actually kill Serral, or even really cripple him so he’s got to tech up and switch to a plan B When Maru plays defensively it feels he’s chosen that as plan A, he’s not trying to switch to plan B in the middle of it. I’m still irked that Maru dismantled Reynor playing like that last time, only to decide he’d start fucking around haha. What is it that prevents Clem from adding a few tanks? Adding a tech lab to the factory? I must say over this tournament (didn't watch the game against Shin), but vs both solar and serral, the widow mines really didn't do much? Feels to me Zergs have become really good at minimizing damage taken vs Widow Mines. Don't really think widow mines are necessarily about the damage that they're dealing which admittedly has been rather low this tournament, but about the amount of attention they require to deal with, not just microing against them taking a good bunch of clicks, but also things like removing them when you don't have an overseer around already, that seems to me like something they're very good at and that's what Clem's style is generally built to do so it fits him well Definitely. But I wonder if it makes sense to attempt to switch a bit earlier when you identify you can no longer beat them by "outpacing" them. Show nested quote +You can't abuse medivac pickups with expensive units immobilized at the edge of the creep. I meant in game 3 when he decided to play defensive.
Clem didn't decide anything in game 3. Serral made that decision for him. If he still thought he was going to be able to go on offense in the spot that he was in then he badly misread how that game was going.
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5 mirrors coming up! Fortunately, a TvZ final!
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By how they cross their arms there, Dark just looks like a boss and SHIN like he is doing what he was told to do. This looking scary for Ragnarok 
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On February 11 2024 20:58 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2024 20:54 Brutaxilos wrote:On February 11 2024 20:33 Zergiica wrote:
oh man... is there a point to watch this game anymore? even an amateur can tell zerg is just to fkin strong. you can be 30-40% less skilled and still be on pair with an opponent. clem was much better in 2nd game but you can't when you have disadvantage from the beginning.
it was sad few yrs ago but i was hoping developers will balance this game i always loved (to hate). nothing, they just left zerg too strong. and there is not any new players coming so this is it, serral (zergs) will dominat until game dies or their wrists slow down. It really just feels like queens make Zerg early game too forgiving. Meanwhile late game tools from Zerg are too punishing. A single nydus or burrow infestor fungal ends the game. Nydus is like a nuke except better. I think Infestor burrow is an incredibly exciting mechanic. I also don't think it often turns a game from 50-50 to 100-0. Instead, I think it offers some type of reasonable comeback mechanic or it's a tool that you can use to end a game where you are already far ahead a bit faster. That seems reasonable to me. But with nydus it's true that it too easily can turn a close game into something that's over. Game1 ending like that was a bit BS and the only real thing terrans can do to counter that is to prevent the Nydus from going up in the first place. Personally I rather have the Nydus be a bit cheaper/faster to produce, but unload units much slower.
I'd be ok with that compromise for the Nydus. It just feels like while Nukes _can_ get more damage if it lands right on top of an army, Nyduses on average are more damaging, especially if using lurkers or swarm hosts.
As for Infestor burrow, I do think it is too punishing. Terran doesn't have mobile late game detection (no one makes ravens late game), and one good fungal will spell basically certain doom for a bio ball against banes/lurkers/ultras. I think there should be a delay after unburrowing before you're allowed to fungal.
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EPT
