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On August 27 2022 14:31 angry_maia wrote:
Outside of goat stuff, is there anyone that doesn't think Serral is the current most skilled player in the world? I.e. are there any current players that people would actually bet on in a bo7 against Serral?
Right now he clearly looks like the best player, but from 2019-2021 I think other players were better and he was "just" a top 3 player.
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On August 27 2022 10:58 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2022 02:17 JJH777 wrote:On August 26 2022 22:22 Harris1st wrote:On August 26 2022 03:14 [Phantom] wrote:
I'm happy. Im SO HAPPY that Reynor lost. Not only did he lose he was humilliated being the first player to be eliminated in his group.
HOPEFULLY this will once and for all eliminate those disscussions about him and serral being the GOATs.
You simply cannot be the GOAT if you havent won a GSL. GSL is the longest running tournament of all. The most prestigious and the most difficult.
Raynor is a great player, but he was arrogant and paid for it. IF there is a GSL next year, maybe he can try again and will surely prepare better.
In the mean time, it is just clear how much difficult GSL is. Reynor lost ergo Serral can't be GOAT... wait! what? Since when is Reynor the top forgein contender for GOAT anyway? IMO Reynor doesn't hold a candle to Serral who is arguably in the top 3 of all time depending on metrics and whatnot This logic makes perfect sense to me. One of the main things people use to justify calling Serral goat is his winrate vs Koreans and consistency because he definitely doesn't have the trophies for it. His winrate and consistency is inflated due to not playing in KR tournaments though. If he played in Korea for a while he'd probably have more important trophies but I bet his winrate vs Koreans would be way lower. I'm sure his fans would have decided trophies are more important than winrates if that happened. It would probably be higher. Serral’s v Korean winrate is mostly based off playing the top dogs in international tournaments. He largely doesn’t play the low/mid tier Code S players so if anything he’d just bump up his winrate. The GOAT discussion is generally tiresome, there’s a fair few good candidates for that top tier. His stats are good, he’s won a lot. When he doesn’t win he’s placed high in almost any tournament for 3/4 years. Multiple Korean pro-gamers have eulogised about his level as player. If his Korean peers think he’s an exceptional talent that’s good enough for me. Whether he’s THE best or not, he’s certainly up there, with a bunch of other quality players. There’s pluses or minuses to most claims. Maru’s never won a world championship, and he’s been a full time SC2 pro for a decade. Rogue’s won a lot but he’s been streaky and hasn’t had extended periods of proper dominance. Inno was profoundly mediocre for 2/3 years etc etc
I don't think anyone disagrees with you here and nobody argues that he's not a top player or not one of the best players in the world. People are specifically arguing about the Goat claim and I among many other people think Maru and Rogue have a better claim to that title.
edit: sorry for triple post, I'm on mobile so it's difficult to combine them into one post
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On August 27 2022 17:06 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2022 14:31 angry_maia wrote:
Outside of goat stuff, is there anyone that doesn't think Serral is the current most skilled player in the world? I.e. are there any current players that people would actually bet on in a bo7 against Serral? Right now he clearly looks like the best player, but from 2019-2021 I think other players were better and he was "just" a top 3 player. edit: and I think Dark would have a very good chance against him as he actually has a positive record against Serral
Fuck sorry, now the quote instead of edit fail happened to me too and I've done a quatruple post....
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I just love how this has evolved from a hyping up Reynor, to a dishing out Reynor to a goat argument battle between Serral and the koreans
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On August 27 2022 14:31 angry_maia wrote:
Outside of goat stuff, is there anyone that doesn't think Serral is the current most skilled player in the world? I.e. are there any current players that people would actually bet on in a bo7 against Serral?
Online, I'd maybe bet on Dark in a bo7? If Reynor were still practicing ZvZ full time I'd also bet on him over Serral in an online bo7. Offline no, though I'd expect Dark/Reynor/herO/Maru to make it close.
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Serral cant be the goat.
Even though he has been the best player since 2018, there are 3 other zergs(rogue, dark and reynor) that have done just slightly worse than him in this time. Even though he is really good, you cant really say that he is the goat because he isn't that above the other guys playing his own race.
Meanwhile Maru was making ro4 in GSL in an age where there were 3 terrans out of 32 players in the tournament. He was(and still is) just so so much better than every other terran player, and, for me, that is much more meaningful than everything else. And this was in an age when korean talent was much deeper, before the mass retirements.
I mean, there is a "just play like maru" but there will never be "just play like serral".
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Northern Ireland27276 Posts
On August 27 2022 21:12 Argonauta wrote:
I just love how this has evolved from a hyping up Reynor, to a dishing out Reynor to a goat argument battle between Serral and the koreans
Who could have predicted this?
I hope Reynor gives it another shot. I thought he’d be good enough to stride through at least groups even if he hadn’t adjusted fully to the prep format, but wasn’t to be this time.
Knuckle down, prep better and he’s a good enough player to do well in this tournament.
It’s not merely playing some Starcraft, it’s moving to a new locale for a while, playing a tournament format you haven’t really played before, versus veterans of that format who all have their networks of practice partners who are also used to that format.
I thought Reynor’s latent level was high enough that he’d at least scrape through groups, and hey it turns out I was wrong on that.
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On August 27 2022 22:18 dysenterymd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2022 14:31 angry_maia wrote:
Outside of goat stuff, is there anyone that doesn't think Serral is the current most skilled player in the world? I.e. are there any current players that people would actually bet on in a bo7 against Serral? Online, I'd maybe bet on Dark in a bo7? If Reynor were still practicing ZvZ full time I'd also bet on him over Serral in an online bo7. Offline no, though I'd expect Dark/Reynor/herO/Maru to make it close.
Maru did beat Serral a couple times, and if it go to lategame I would still favor Maru over Serral, or anyone else, for that matter.
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Wow, I really didn't expect Reynor to get last place in his group, which wasn't even the hardest group.
On August 27 2022 14:31 angry_maia wrote:
Outside of goat stuff, is there anyone that doesn't think Serral is the current most skilled player in the world? I.e. are there any current players that people would actually bet on in a bo7 against Serral?
Current most skilled foreigner? Sure.
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Canada8990 Posts
On August 27 2022 14:31 angry_maia wrote:
Outside of goat stuff, is there anyone that doesn't think Serral is the current most skilled player in the world? I.e. are there any current players that people would actually bet on in a bo7 against Serral?
I wouldn't, not sure I would bet on anyone but Serral in the last 4 years tbh.
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On August 27 2022 14:31 angry_maia wrote:
Outside of goat stuff, is there anyone that doesn't think Serral is the current most skilled player in the world? I.e. are there any current players that people would actually bet on in a bo7 against Serral?
Anyone who is rational and has watched the games knows Serral is nowhere near GOAT level, let alone best in Europe. He is top 5 at best. This site and Reddit are insanely blind when it comes to the Serral circle jerk. You guys need to be more rational and calm instead of just supporting MuH FoRiEgNeR
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On August 28 2022 15:20 pandorasheep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2022 14:31 angry_maia wrote:
Outside of goat stuff, is there anyone that doesn't think Serral is the current most skilled player in the world? I.e. are there any current players that people would actually bet on in a bo7 against Serral? Anyone who is rational and has watched the games knows Serral is nowhere near GOAT level, let alone best in Europe. He is top 5 at best. This site and Reddit are insanely blind when it comes to the Serral circle jerk. You guys need to be more rational and calm instead of just supporting MuH FoRiEgNeR
Anyone who is rational clearly sees, that the sky is yellow!
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On August 27 2022 08:56 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2022 04:50 JJH777 wrote:On August 27 2022 03:47 HeroSandro wrote:On August 27 2022 02:17 JJH777 wrote:On August 26 2022 22:22 Harris1st wrote:On August 26 2022 03:14 [Phantom] wrote:
I'm happy. Im SO HAPPY that Reynor lost. Not only did he lose he was humilliated being the first player to be eliminated in his group.
HOPEFULLY this will once and for all eliminate those disscussions about him and serral being the GOATs.
You simply cannot be the GOAT if you havent won a GSL. GSL is the longest running tournament of all. The most prestigious and the most difficult.
Raynor is a great player, but he was arrogant and paid for it. IF there is a GSL next year, maybe he can try again and will surely prepare better.
In the mean time, it is just clear how much difficult GSL is. Reynor lost ergo Serral can't be GOAT... wait! what? Since when is Reynor the top forgein contender for GOAT anyway? IMO Reynor doesn't hold a candle to Serral who is arguably in the top 3 of all time depending on metrics and whatnot This logic makes perfect sense to me. One of the main things people use to justify calling Serral goat is his winrate vs Koreans and consistency because he definitely doesn't have the trophies for it. His winrate and consistency is inflated due to not playing in KR tournaments though. If he played in Korea for a while he'd probably have more important trophies but I bet his winrate vs Koreans would be way lower. I'm sure his fans would have decided trophies are more important than winrates if that happened. Serral has a good winrate against koreans. You think it would be lower if he played in Korea. One is a fact, one is speculation. According to your metrics only tournament that matters is GSL as Serral has won every other major tournamnent if i’m not forgetting something. You are simply downplaying every achiemnet Serral has. Edit: just be honest with the fact, that you are as biased as we all are. There is no objective way to measure who is the goat. Every metric is subjective. I think trophies > all for goat determination was pretty widely accepted before Serral. Serral has an impressive trophy list but when compared to Rogue, Maru, or even Inno with no context it's pretty obvious their lists are better. I can usually get even people who think Serral's the goat to admit that much. Especially before he won IEM. Their argument always becomes centered around aligulac or records vs top Koreans after that which are things no one really cared about before Serral. It wasn't or else Taeja would be the GOAT
There's a number of people here who will regard Taeja as Top 3-5 Terran. They just focus on his achievements in foreign weekender tourneys and ignore his mediocre results in GSL.
I've always been critical of this pro-Taeja bias in TL. To me, he's not even close to the Terran pantheon of Maru, Inno, TY, MVP or even Byun.
The same people who rate Taeja highly are probably the same people who consider Serral as GOAT contender. It's not a foreigner bias but more of foreign tourney bias.
As I've said before, I don't rate GSL higher than IEM or Blizzcon. Both are just different type of tourneys. In my humble view, a player can't claim GOAT status without succeeding in both formats and across different 2-3 expansions (HoTS and LoTV at least).
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Northern Ireland27276 Posts
On August 28 2022 19:29 RKC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2022 08:56 Cricketer12 wrote:On August 27 2022 04:50 JJH777 wrote:On August 27 2022 03:47 HeroSandro wrote:On August 27 2022 02:17 JJH777 wrote:On August 26 2022 22:22 Harris1st wrote:On August 26 2022 03:14 [Phantom] wrote:
I'm happy. Im SO HAPPY that Reynor lost. Not only did he lose he was humilliated being the first player to be eliminated in his group.
HOPEFULLY this will once and for all eliminate those disscussions about him and serral being the GOATs.
You simply cannot be the GOAT if you havent won a GSL. GSL is the longest running tournament of all. The most prestigious and the most difficult.
Raynor is a great player, but he was arrogant and paid for it. IF there is a GSL next year, maybe he can try again and will surely prepare better.
In the mean time, it is just clear how much difficult GSL is. Reynor lost ergo Serral can't be GOAT... wait! what? Since when is Reynor the top forgein contender for GOAT anyway? IMO Reynor doesn't hold a candle to Serral who is arguably in the top 3 of all time depending on metrics and whatnot This logic makes perfect sense to me. One of the main things people use to justify calling Serral goat is his winrate vs Koreans and consistency because he definitely doesn't have the trophies for it. His winrate and consistency is inflated due to not playing in KR tournaments though. If he played in Korea for a while he'd probably have more important trophies but I bet his winrate vs Koreans would be way lower. I'm sure his fans would have decided trophies are more important than winrates if that happened. Serral has a good winrate against koreans. You think it would be lower if he played in Korea. One is a fact, one is speculation. According to your metrics only tournament that matters is GSL as Serral has won every other major tournamnent if i’m not forgetting something. You are simply downplaying every achiemnet Serral has. Edit: just be honest with the fact, that you are as biased as we all are. There is no objective way to measure who is the goat. Every metric is subjective. I think trophies > all for goat determination was pretty widely accepted before Serral. Serral has an impressive trophy list but when compared to Rogue, Maru, or even Inno with no context it's pretty obvious their lists are better. I can usually get even people who think Serral's the goat to admit that much. Especially before he won IEM. Their argument always becomes centered around aligulac or records vs top Koreans after that which are things no one really cared about before Serral. It wasn't or else Taeja would be the GOAT There's a number of people here who will regard Taeja as Top 3-5 Terran. They just focus on his achievements in foreign weekender tourneys and ignore his mediocre results in GSL. I've always been critical of this pro-Taeja bias in TL. To me, he's not even close to the Terran pantheon of Maru, Inno, TY, MVP or even Byun. The same people who rate Taeja highly are probably the same people who consider Serral as GOAT contender. It's not a foreigner bias but more of foreign tourney bias. As I've said before, I don't rate GSL higher than IEM or Blizzcon. Both are just different type of tourneys. In my humble view, a player can't claim GOAT status without succeeding in both formats and across different 2-3 expansions (HoTS and LoTV at least).
Taeja in full flow was ridiculous. I rate him highly more for the level of play he showed when at his best, over the various tournaments he won.
One can only, for me be in the conversation, to define a definitive GOAT is too difficult, or exclusionary based on circumstance.
Is Maru greater than x other player by being a progamer since Wings, on Prime and Jin Air, very strong teams in differing eras, and largely injury free? I’m not picking on Maru’s claim but he’s basically the only progamer in the GOAT conversation that ticks all those boxes, so he basically becomes the GOAT by default.
Less so now, but the prep format has dovetailed neatly with being part of a strong team. Latterly having formed friendships in the scene fills that hole, and practice partners across teams has long been a thing.
But any foreigner giving Code S a shot doesn’t have that network to immediately tap into.
There’s a whole bunch of structural/circumstances that differ through the scene so I tend towards judging players by how good their peak periods were versus their peers.
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Did Taeja at his peak beat all his peers at the peak tourneys (GSL, IEM, Blizzcon)?
If the answer is no, how Taeja fare at his 'peak' in other tourneys is irrelevant to the GOAT discussion.
A few players have beaten Djokovic and Nadal en route to winning some non-Grand Slam event at their 'peak'. No tennis fan would even consider such a player as GOAT material without coming close to winning multiple Grand Slams.
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Northern Ireland27276 Posts
On August 29 2022 00:29 RKC wrote:
Did Taeja at his peak beat all his peers at the peak tourneys (GSL, IEM, Blizzcon)?
If the answer is no, how Taeja fare at his 'peak' in other tourneys is irrelevant to the GOAT discussion.
A few players have beaten Djokovic and Nadal en route to winning some non-Grand Slam event at their 'peak'. No tennis fan would even consider such a player as GOAT material without coming close to winning multiple Grand Slams.
I wouldn’t necessarily put him above an Inno, or an Mvp or Maru, but he’s still high up. He won a lot of tournaments against strong fields, they have the tiebreaker in having that success in the prep format too.
Byun took some grand slams, but in one meta and hasn’t had a ton of tournament success outside of that period. Or a Gumiho has that Code S but very little else. You could conceivably put Taeja above those two, or below and neither would be particularly outrageous.
I only threw in Taeja as an aside/response, my main point is certain qualifiers are just going to exclude certain players and not for reasons of latent skill.
Winning across multiple expos? Well anyone starting their pro gaming career late can never be the GOAT.
Code S success? It’s a good tiebreaker for players of similar circumstances for sure, but the prep aspect is inherently collaborative and it’s just going to be harder, while not insurmountable for teamless players, but especially foreigners to tap into that. On the flip side, Code S is way less deep than it used to be, so taking that home is maybe not quite the crown it once was a other.
General tournament success is another that can be wonky. Have a team that flies you to every tournament going vs one that refuses to release you as there’s an important Proleague match upcoming, well that’ll affect your tournament results quite a bit in either direction.
Etc etc.
Hey it’s a bit boring and non-committal but it’s difficult when we’re not comparing like with like given how much the scene has changed over the years.
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On August 27 2022 05:35 kajtarp wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2022 03:47 HeroSandro wrote:
Serral has a good winrate against koreans. You think it would be lower if he played in Korea. One is a fact, one is speculation. According to your metrics only tournament that matters is GSL as Serral has won every other major tournamnent if i’m not forgetting something. You are simply downplaying every achiemnet Serral has.
Edit: just be honest with the fact, that you are as biased as we all are. There is no objective way to measure who is the goat. Every metric is subjective.
Imagine calling someone the best basketball player while said person never played in the NBA. This is in no way downplaying Serral's achievment, just my personal opinion. GLS is pretty much the "NBA" of SC2.
Exactly.
Luka Doncic is already probably the best Euroleague Basketball player that anyone's ever seen and even though he's already making waves in the NBA he has a long way to go before he proves he's the greatest there. He definitely has the potential to be though, that's what makes it so exciting.
Serral on the other hand, who clearly has the skill and the talent to be a great GSL player just flat out refuses to go play in Code S. It'd be like if Luka said he'd rather just play in Euroleague and leave it at that continuing to soak up the awards and the accolades.
It makes no sense. You can't call him the GOAT if he doesn't go and win in the world's toughest tournament/league. That goes for any sport.
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On August 29 2022 04:05 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2022 00:29 RKC wrote:
Did Taeja at his peak beat all his peers at the peak tourneys (GSL, IEM, Blizzcon)?
If the answer is no, how Taeja fare at his 'peak' in other tourneys is irrelevant to the GOAT discussion.
A few players have beaten Djokovic and Nadal en route to winning some non-Grand Slam event at their 'peak'. No tennis fan would even consider such a player as GOAT material without coming close to winning multiple Grand Slams. I wouldn’t necessarily put him above an Inno, or an Mvp or Maru, but he’s still high up. He won a lot of tournaments against strong fields, they have the tiebreaker in having that success in the prep format too. Byun took some grand slams, but in one meta and hasn’t had a ton of tournament success outside of that period. Or a Gumiho has that Code S but very little else. You could conceivably put Taeja above those two, or below and neither would be particularly outrageous. I only threw in Taeja as an aside/response, my main point is certain qualifiers are just going to exclude certain players and not for reasons of latent skill. Winning across multiple expos? Well anyone starting their pro gaming career late can never be the GOAT. Code S success? It’s a good tiebreaker for players of similar circumstances for sure, but the prep aspect is inherently collaborative and it’s just going to be harder, while not insurmountable for teamless players, but especially foreigners to tap into that. On the flip side, Code S is way less deep than it used to be, so taking that home is maybe not quite the crown it once was a other. General tournament success is another that can be wonky. Have a team that flies you to every tournament going vs one that refuses to release you as there’s an important Proleague match upcoming, well that’ll affect your tournament results quite a bit in either direction. Etc etc. Hey it’s a bit boring and non-committal but it’s difficult when we’re not comparing like with like given how much the scene has changed over the years.
Look, when you get into the nitty gritty rankings of players it becomes hard to tell how many minor tournament titles translate to a single Code S title. Ranking guys like Gumiho and Taeja are difficult because there's so much subjectivity and such involved.
However, we can both safely say that neither of those two are the greatest of all time. That at least is easy to say.
It becomes really easy when you approach the tip top of the SC2 pyramid to knock players off of the discussion for various reasons, even notable greats like Mvp get knocked off these days because he's "the King of Wings" having done nothing of note in later expansions.
When you have 3 players like Rogue, Maru and Serral standing at the top, and one of them is missing a Code S title while the other two have multiples it's really easy to knock him down and just compare the two that are remaining.
Maru has 4 Code S titles, cross expansion success, too many titles in minor tournaments to count. Rogue has cross expansion success, 4 Code S titles, and a Katowice and Blizzcon title that Maru lacks. He just doesn't have the sheer number of smaller titles that Maru does.
Serral has a vast array of smaller titles, absolutely dominates WCS Europe (for whatever that's worth to you) and has matched Rogue's record of 1 Blizzcon and IEM Katowice title.
When you have these 3 next to each other and notice how impressive all of their resumes are, it's easy to knock off the guy who is missing the tournament title for the most difficult tournament to win of any of them.
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On August 29 2022 17:14 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2022 04:05 WombaT wrote:On August 29 2022 00:29 RKC wrote:
Did Taeja at his peak beat all his peers at the peak tourneys (GSL, IEM, Blizzcon)?
If the answer is no, how Taeja fare at his 'peak' in other tourneys is irrelevant to the GOAT discussion.
A few players have beaten Djokovic and Nadal en route to winning some non-Grand Slam event at their 'peak'. No tennis fan would even consider such a player as GOAT material without coming close to winning multiple Grand Slams. I wouldn’t necessarily put him above an Inno, or an Mvp or Maru, but he’s still high up. He won a lot of tournaments against strong fields, they have the tiebreaker in having that success in the prep format too. Byun took some grand slams, but in one meta and hasn’t had a ton of tournament success outside of that period. Or a Gumiho has that Code S but very little else. You could conceivably put Taeja above those two, or below and neither would be particularly outrageous. I only threw in Taeja as an aside/response, my main point is certain qualifiers are just going to exclude certain players and not for reasons of latent skill. Winning across multiple expos? Well anyone starting their pro gaming career late can never be the GOAT. Code S success? It’s a good tiebreaker for players of similar circumstances for sure, but the prep aspect is inherently collaborative and it’s just going to be harder, while not insurmountable for teamless players, but especially foreigners to tap into that. On the flip side, Code S is way less deep than it used to be, so taking that home is maybe not quite the crown it once was a other. General tournament success is another that can be wonky. Have a team that flies you to every tournament going vs one that refuses to release you as there’s an important Proleague match upcoming, well that’ll affect your tournament results quite a bit in either direction. Etc etc. Hey it’s a bit boring and non-committal but it’s difficult when we’re not comparing like with like given how much the scene has changed over the years. Look, when you get into the nitty gritty rankings of players it becomes hard to tell how many minor tournament titles translate to a single Code S title. Ranking guys like Gumiho and Taeja are difficult because there's so much subjectivity and such involved. However, we can both safely say that neither of those two are the greatest of all time. That at least is easy to say. It becomes really easy when you approach the tip top of the SC2 pyramid to knock players off of the discussion for various reasons, even notable greats like Mvp get knocked off these days because he's "the King of Wings" having done nothing of note in later expansions. When you have 3 players like Rogue, Maru and Serral standing at the top, and one of them is missing a Code S title while the other two have multiples it's really easy to knock him down and just compare the two that are remaining. Maru has 4 Code S titles, cross expansion success, too many titles in minor tournaments to count. Rogue has cross expansion success, 4 Code S titles, and a Katowice and Blizzcon title that Maru lacks. He just doesn't have the sheer number of smaller titles that Maru does. Serral has a vast array of smaller titles, absolutely dominates WCS Europe (for whatever that's worth to you) and has matched Rogue's record of 1 Blizzcon and IEM Katowice title. When you have these 3 next to each other and notice how impressive all of their resumes are, it's easy to knock off the guy who is missing the tournament title for the most difficult tournament to win of any of them.
Rogue actually has won IEM Katowice 2 times
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I definitely agree that the GOAT analysis involves some intangible subjective factors (time period, meta, strength of opposition). But there has to be some minimum objective baseline. Winning a premier tourney does not automatically qualify a player into the GOAT zone (otherwise players like Sniper and Seed will be in contention). But not winning one puts a player out of contention entirely.
So I wouldn't consider one-hit wonders like Gumiho and jjakji as GOAT material. In fact, I would even rate Taeja higher than then on the Terran power rank despite not winning GSL. But ultimately, all of them fail to enter GOAT territory.
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EPT
