EPT
GSL Code S
Global StarCraft II League/2022/Season 3Streams & Casters
Format
- Group Stage 1:
- Dual Tournament Format.
- All matches are Bo3.
- Top 2 players of each group advance to the Group Stage 2.
Map Pool
Group B
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/3226.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/6252.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/2241.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/2627.jpg)
Results
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/51ZkzDr.png)
CSS: FO-nTTaX
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Banner: GSL
[GSL 2022] Code S:Season 3 - Ro20 Group B
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Tournaments |
Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51456 Posts
Map Pool CSS: FO-nTTaX Awesomeness: Panda Banner: GSL | ||
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umelbumel
2026 Posts
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ShowTheLights
Korea (South)1669 Posts
Bunny falls out | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13968 Posts
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dbRic1203
Germany2655 Posts
I haven t been this hyped for a GSL group in years | ||
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atrox_
United Kingdom1710 Posts
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umelbumel
2026 Posts
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Mozdk
Denmark6989 Posts
(I know. No one ever asks: How is Artosis?) | ||
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
On August 25 2022 18:39 Mozdk wrote: Where's Artosis? (I know. No one ever asks: How is Artosis?) In sick city (Canada) | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
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Mozdk
Denmark6989 Posts
Thought he wasn't leaving until after season 3. | ||
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
On August 25 2022 18:42 Argonauta wrote: They truly dont make their homework and remember Reynor already play GSL Code S few years ago lol. It doesn't count since Reynor wasn't as good then, just like every result of pre-2018 Serral doesn't count  | ||
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
On August 25 2022 18:42 Mozdk wrote: Thought he wasn't leaving until after season 3. It's temporary for now, he'll be back for Ro10 (maybe earlier, not sure). | ||
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Mozdk
Denmark6989 Posts
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darklycid
3375 Posts
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atrox_
United Kingdom1710 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
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Schelim
Austria11528 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2429 Posts
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
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atrox_
United Kingdom1710 Posts
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Poopi
France12761 Posts
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darklycid
3375 Posts
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Emphy
5 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2429 Posts
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Schelim
Austria11528 Posts
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yoshi245
United States2969 Posts
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StasisField
United States1086 Posts
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1060 Posts
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
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Swisslink
2949 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
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sudete
Singapore3054 Posts
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Circumstance
United States11403 Posts
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Seacow
Sweden99 Posts
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VladSlymor
80 Posts
On August 25 2022 19:18 Swisslink wrote: How did Reynor end up so far behind in supply all of a sudden? That was a 4-base Zerg vs. a Terran on 2-bases and somehow Reynor was never able to power up enough. But far from a 4-bases saturation, only 10 drones more than Bunny, which is almost compensated by the mules. Still, he would probably have won being less sloppy with his queens. GG Bunny anyway, clever gameplan! | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
On August 25 2022 19:18 Swisslink wrote: How did Reynor end up so far behind in supply all of a sudden? That was a 4-base Zerg vs. a Terran on 2-bases and somehow Reynor was never able to power up enough. Despite being 4 bases vs 2. Reynor was only 10 workers up, so its even if you count mules. The 3 and the 4 were mainly production bases, which it allows you to make workers super quick, but reynor had to invest everything in ling/bane queen because it was super greedy and had no more tech. if reynor had no forth he would have run out of larvae sooner as lings are larva intensive units. | ||
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dbRic1203
Germany2655 Posts
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sudete
Singapore3054 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
On August 25 2022 19:24 dbRic1203 wrote: Reynor going to 12 pool today, you ve heard it here first I think after this series nor Bunny neither Dream are going to play CC first again. | ||
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tigera6
3221 Posts
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Schelim
Austria11528 Posts
On August 25 2022 19:28 sudete wrote: The match I really want to watch is reynor Vs DRG, because I'm sure DRG has prepared something bizarre for it sporecrawler rush to snipe an Overlord into fast Swarmhosts | ||
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tigera6
3221 Posts
On August 25 2022 19:29 Argonauta wrote: I think after this series nor Bunny neither Dream are going to play CC first again. 12-pool doesnt counter CC first on normal map, the CC is likely to be finished before the lings get over. Its the 1-base Roach push that kill the CC first build. | ||
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Poopi
France12761 Posts
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atrox_
United Kingdom1710 Posts
On August 25 2022 19:36 Poopi wrote: Seems like terrans don’t wanna go late game on this map pool or even mid game, all of them are doing 2 base all-ins :o. zergs are going 4 base 55-60 drones why wouldnt you. Admittedly Reynor stopped a bit short of that number but then took the worst engagements | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
On August 25 2022 19:30 tigera6 wrote: 12-pool doesnt counter CC first on normal map, the CC is likely to be finished before the lings get over. Its the 1-base Roach push that kill the CC first build. hmm my bad, I think it did | ||
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dbRic1203
Germany2655 Posts
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tigera6
3221 Posts
On August 25 2022 19:36 Poopi wrote: Seems like terrans don’t wanna go late game on this map pool or even mid game, all of them are doing 2 base all-ins :o. Its more that Zerg doesnt want to play lategame vs Terran, so they went the greedy build to kill them in mid-game, and Terran in turn doing 2-base all-in to punish that in early game. | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
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dbRic1203
Germany2655 Posts
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Schelim
Austria11528 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2429 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2429 Posts
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tigera6
3221 Posts
On August 25 2022 19:52 swarminfestor wrote: Libs supposedly to be key unit to punish overrun Queens without ability to transfuse. Wonder why Maru has not exploited it against Zerg player before. Because Queen transfuse was just nerfed recently? And since then Maru has done a lot of 2 base all-in in TvZ. | ||
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Poopi
France12761 Posts
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
On August 25 2022 19:55 Poopi wrote: The 2 base all-in TvZ meta will get boring really quickly :x I prefer that to the lategame snoozefests we've been seeing (and no, it's not just Maru). | ||
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yoshi245
United States2969 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
On August 25 2022 19:58 Durnuu wrote: I prefer that to the lategame snoozefests we've been seeing (and no, it's not just Maru). I challenge you to watch Maru vs Dark game 1 of the semifinals of the last GSL and tell me its a snoozefest (without knowing the result). | ||
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
On August 25 2022 20:02 Argonauta wrote: I challenge you to watch Maru vs Dark game 1 of the semifinals of the last GSL and tell me its a snoozefest (without knowing the result). Yeah, that was the one good game of this lol On August 25 2022 20:02 yoshi245 wrote: I'm just content at least one Terran moves on. Feel bad for the remaining Terran on facing a pissed off Reynor or DRG who'll probably 12pool. As long as they don't make a roach warren, terrans will be fine | ||
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Poopi
France12761 Posts
On August 25 2022 20:02 yoshi245 wrote: I'm just content at least one Terran moves on. Feel bad for the remaining Terran on facing a pissed off Reynor or DRG who'll probably 12pool. 12pool is countered by CC first though, so unless they are willing to do something very risky like 1base roach, that’s worse than doing their regular build | ||
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yoshi245
United States2969 Posts
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tigera6
3221 Posts
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atrox_
United Kingdom1710 Posts
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
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Seacow
Sweden99 Posts
On August 25 2022 20:10 tigera6 wrote: I think the main thing is to send enough lingbane counter to cripple the 2nd base. 11-12 Queens can stall enough time for Zerg to get up units to defends, but they need to stop the reinforcement and macro of the Terran. I think this is spot on. Reynor tried to intercept reinforcements, but the execution wasnt there. Banes rolling into tanks or getting picked off, it was a mess. If the T can force the push to happen uninterrupted it looks really hard to hold, especially when libs hit the field. | ||
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dbRic1203
Germany2655 Posts
Instead they talk about him beeing realy good in it, because he plays so many foreign Zergs  | ||
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Swisslink
2949 Posts
On August 25 2022 20:45 dbRic1203 wrote: How are they not talking about Reynor avoiding ZvZ for month now? Instead they talk about him beeing realy good in it, because he plays so many foreign Zergs Well, Reynor just doesn't like the matchup, does he? I never felt that he was bad in the match up, tbh. edit: I think Reynor should have seen that coming. He doesn't though, apparently. | ||
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Mozdk
Denmark6989 Posts
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
On August 25 2022 20:47 Mozdk wrote: Why no Protoss? Is that not allowed in GSL? In GSL, you pick a race in qualifiers and you stick with it throughout. | ||
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Swisslink
2949 Posts
On August 25 2022 20:47 Mozdk wrote: Why no Protoss? Is that not allowed in GSL? GSL Rules do not allow for race switches. They never have, afaik. | ||
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Mozdk
Denmark6989 Posts
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Swisslink
2949 Posts
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Poopi
France12761 Posts
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tigera6
3221 Posts
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Mozdk
Denmark6989 Posts
On August 25 2022 21:01 Poopi wrote: Reynor showing slightly superior gameplay so far, will be interesting to see if DRG has something up his sleeve Guessing he tries mutas this game. | ||
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2429 Posts
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tigera6
3221 Posts
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
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Mozdk
Denmark6989 Posts
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Swisslink
2949 Posts
On August 25 2022 21:12 Durnuu wrote: No need to panic, casters, if 12 pool was that good against hatch first people would never go hatch first lol Of course it's not that good. But usually the defender loses more than 1 drone. | ||
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
On August 25 2022 21:14 Swisslink wrote: Of course it's not that good. But usually the defender loses more than 1 drone. Yeah but they were talking like Reynor was dead unless he had a miracle hold. I haven't seen a gasless 12 pool end a game in years (in ZvZ at least) at this point, it usually ends up as a slight lead for one of the two depending on who had the better micro (in this case Reynor), but certainly no "you're dead" territory. | ||
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
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Poopi
France12761 Posts
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atrox_
United Kingdom1710 Posts
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darklycid
3375 Posts
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Husyelt
United States823 Posts
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Schelim
Austria11528 Posts
On August 25 2022 21:24 Poopi wrote: Even with Stats, TY, Zest, INno... gone, world champions can bomb out in group stage... Welcome to Code S, Reynor! i mean yeah, I kinda expected this. Reynor is not used to the GSL, the format, the country, the food, his new living situation... and these players in this group are not exactly slouches | ||
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Circumstance
United States11403 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15880 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2429 Posts
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darklycid
3375 Posts
On August 25 2022 21:25 Schelim wrote: i mean yeah, I kinda expected this. Reynor is not used to the GSL, the format, the country, the food, his new living situation... and these players in this group are not exactly slouches he already played in GSL before tho. | ||
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Swisslink
2949 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2429 Posts
On August 25 2022 21:25 Circumstance wrote: Let it be noted that Astrea was the highest-placing foreigner in the GSL this season. How about cumulative earnings? Scarlett made the most? | ||
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
On August 25 2022 21:26 swarminfestor wrote: wow, Reynor out already. Who say that Code S is B-tier tournament should eat their own shoes. Comeback stronger Reynor for the next season. It's certainly not what it used to be, but it's still far better than any foreigner-only tournament. There is no denying Reynor and Serral closed the gap, but the other foreigners... not so much. | ||
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Poopi
France12761 Posts
On August 25 2022 21:25 Schelim wrote: i mean yeah, I kinda expected this. Reynor is not used to the GSL, the format, the country, the food, his new living situation... and these players in this group are not exactly slouches Well at least he travelled super early, contrary to KR players for Katowice and stuff. Still funny result | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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dbRic1203
Germany2655 Posts
It feels like he was better mecanically but lacked specific preperation and got "out-prepared" The Koreans realy did their homework today. Reynor said in his interview with Harstem, he s not realy a preperation player and goes more with guts feeling, that might have cost him today. GGs to the Koreans | ||
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2429 Posts
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Circumstance
United States11403 Posts
On August 25 2022 21:26 swarminfestor wrote: How about cumulative earnings? Scarlett made the most? In the GSL specifically? I haven't done the research, but I would imagine either her or a Swede from back in the Swedish era. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
Big ups to Reynor for at least coming out to compete, but holy shit is this is a wake up call to everyone in SC2 including me that were starting to doubt the elite level that Code S sits at. | ||
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2429 Posts
On August 25 2022 21:28 Fango wrote: Anyone can lose in GSL groups. Even in 2022 the depth of high level players is such that anyone can lose in the group stages. Rogue made thrice I guess. Maru, one time if I am not mistaken. | ||
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
On August 25 2022 21:29 Circumstance wrote: In the GSL specifically? I haven't done the research, but I would imagine either her or a Swede from back in the Swedish era. I don't think it's a good metric anyway considering how differently the money got split over the years. Like, you get 3k for ro20 this year, which is basically equal to a top 8 in 2013. | ||
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Poopi
France12761 Posts
On August 25 2022 21:28 Fango wrote: Anyone can lose in GSL groups. Even in 2022 the depth of high level players is such that anyone can lose in the group stages. Except for Trap before his last season! He has made so many consecutive ro8 it's impressive | ||
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2429 Posts
On August 25 2022 21:29 Circumstance wrote: In the GSL specifically? I haven't done the research, but I would imagine either her or a Swede from back in the Swedish era. Yeah, I think Scarlett managed to break the group stage many times and arrived to quarterfinal one time. She should gain the most cumulative earnings in GSL among the foreigners? | ||
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sudete
Singapore3054 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
On August 25 2022 21:25 Schelim wrote: i mean yeah, I kinda expected this. Reynor is not used to the GSL, the format, the country, the food, his new living situation... and these players in this group are not exactly slouches and the jet lag, dont forget the jet lag | ||
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Swisslink
2949 Posts
On August 25 2022 21:28 Fango wrote: Anyone can lose in GSL groups. Even in 2022 the depth of high level players is such that anyone can lose in the group stages. I wouldn't say the overall level of play is the main issue. Otherwise Koreans would dominate the foreign tournaments as well and that's not really the case. It's just that GSL is, purely because of the format, a different type of tournament that requires a different set of skills. | ||
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serendipitous
Canada195 Posts
There's no jet lag involved in GSL since the players are living in Korea for a time. | ||
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2429 Posts
On August 25 2022 21:32 sudete wrote: Neeb's and Jinro's records remain untouched I don't think Reynor will give up. He will try the next year season based on his attitude so far. | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
On August 25 2022 21:33 Swisslink wrote: I wouldn't say the overall level of play is the main issue. Otherwise Koreans would dominate the foreign tournaments as well and that's not really the case. It's just that GSL is, purely because of the format, a different type of tournament that requires a different set of skills. As far as I am aware, region lock for Koreans still exists. | ||
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Swisslink
2949 Posts
On August 25 2022 21:32 swarminfestor wrote: Yeah, I think Scarlett managed to break the group stage many times and arrived to quarterfinal one time. She should gain the most cumulative earnings in GSL among the foreigners? I would assume she does by quite a large margin. | ||
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Poopi
France12761 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15880 Posts
On August 25 2022 21:33 Swisslink wrote: I wouldn't say the overall level of play is the main issue. Otherwise Koreans would dominate the foreign tournaments as well and that's not really the case. It's just that GSL is, purely because of the format, a different type of tournament that requires a different set of skills. They dominate foreign tournaments though, except for like Serral and Reynor and sometimes Clem and Heromarine. DRG also eliminated Serral from DH Last Chance. The average level of play in korea is still way higher even though the very top foreigners have closed the gap. | ||
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dysenterymd
1177 Posts
I'm sure he'll learn though and come back some other time. Hope Serral makes the trip too next year, though I'm not holding my breath. | ||
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Swisslink
2949 Posts
On August 25 2022 21:38 Argonauta wrote: As far as I am aware, region lock for Koreans still exists. Not even sure, but there are many international tournaments that take place over 2-3 days and foreign players tend to do well there even if Koreans participate. GSL with its week long preparation just seems to favor Koreans. Which is perfectly fine, but it's not because the overall level is just that much higher nowadays. | ||
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2429 Posts
On August 25 2022 21:38 Argonauta wrote: As far as I am aware, region lock for Koreans still exists. My dumb question: Can Reynor join DH SC2 Masters 2022 Atlanta: Europe later on? | ||
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dysenterymd
1177 Posts
On August 25 2022 21:40 Swisslink wrote: Not even sure, but there are many international tournaments that take place over 2-3 days and foreign players tend to do well there. GSL with its week long preparation just seems to favor Koreans. Which is perfectly fine, but it's not because the overall level is just that much higher nowadays. I'd say the overall level in Korea is still quite a bit higher? Reynor/Serral have closed the gap, Clem can sometimes play at a world class level but is on average a bit worse than Bunny (with exceptional TvZ), and Gabe/Showtime sometimes make deep runs. Otherwise, Lambo/Elazer/Neeb/Astrea are good but would probably be ro20 players in GSL. Not exactly sure how TIME fits in, but he'd also be a Code S level foreigner. Format makes a difference, but even if every foreigner had a completely smooth transition to the format only two of them would have the base skill to win Code S. | ||
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
On August 25 2022 21:43 swarminfestor wrote: My dumb question: Can Reynor join DH SC2 Masters 2022 Atlanta: Europe later on? Yes, because he's a foreigner. They don't have restrictions. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15880 Posts
On August 25 2022 21:40 Swisslink wrote: Not even sure, but there are many international tournaments that take place over 2-3 days and foreign players tend to do well there even if Koreans participate. GSL with its week long preparation just seems to favor Koreans. Which is perfectly fine, but it's not because the overall level is just that much higher nowadays. I wouldn't interpret that much into this one elimination from Reynor. This time he lost but it's not like he had no chance to advance and if tries another time I could see him easily advancing. The average level of korea is just that high that almost everyone can beat everyone | ||
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Poopi
France12761 Posts
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Mozdk
Denmark6989 Posts
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
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dbRic1203
Germany2655 Posts
On August 25 2022 21:40 Swisslink wrote: Not even sure, but there are many international tournaments that take place over 2-3 days and foreign players tend to do well there even if Koreans participate. GSL with its week long preparation just seems to favor Koreans. Which is perfectly fine, but it's not because the overall level is just that much higher nowadays. I wouldn t even say, it favours Koreans, but players who a used to the format, wich are mostly Koreans. Special for example excells at preperation based tournaments as well, even though he isn t Korean. He was just in GSL so long,m that he is more used to preparing. On the other side Reynor didn t prepare at all but relied simply on his (ridculous high) baseline skill level. But that is clearly not enough, when your opponents have prepared specifically for playing you. | ||
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Poopi
France12761 Posts
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
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sudete
Singapore3054 Posts
On August 25 2022 21:43 dysenterymd wrote: I'd say the overall level in Korea is still quite a bit higher? Reynor/Serral have closed the gap, Clem can sometimes play at a world class level but is on average a bit worse than Bunny (with exceptional TvZ), and Gabe/Showtime sometimes make deep runs. Otherwise, Lambo/Elazer/Neeb/Astrea are good but would probably be ro20 players in GSL. Not exactly sure how TIME fits in, but he'd also be a Code S level foreigner. Format makes a difference, but even if every foreigner had a completely smooth transition to the format only two of them would have the base skill to win Code S. Mr Neeb's record in Korean tournaments clearly indicative of his ro20 calibre | ||
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Mozdk
Denmark6989 Posts
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dysenterymd
1177 Posts
On August 25 2022 21:48 sudete wrote: Mr Neeb's record in Korean tournaments clearly indicative of his ro20 calibre True haha, I was more going off of current form but yeah, I think he could go deeper. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15880 Posts
On August 25 2022 21:48 sudete wrote: Mr Neeb's record in Korean tournaments clearly indicative of his ro20 calibre That was another time, when he was still fulltime and in good form | ||
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
On August 25 2022 21:49 Charoisaur wrote: That was another time, when he was still fulltime and in good form And when Adepts were laughably OP. Seriously, Neeb has never been the player he was after Adepts got nerfed. With OP Adepts he was a world class champion caliber player. Afterward? He's a fringe playoff player at best. | ||
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
On August 25 2022 22:01 Vindicare605 wrote: And when Adepts were laughably OP. Seriously, Neeb has never been the player he was after Adepts got nerfed. With OP Adepts he was a world class champion caliber player. Afterward? He's a fringe playoff player at best. Neeb's Ro4 happened in 2018, definitely after the main adept nerfs. Only nerf that happened since then is the gateway (not warp gate) build time. | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8988 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15880 Posts
On August 25 2022 22:01 Vindicare605 wrote: And when Adepts were laughably OP. Seriously, Neeb has never been the player he was after Adepts got nerfed. With OP Adepts he was a world class champion caliber player. Afterward? He's a fringe playoff player at best. tbf Protoss in general was just pretty bad from like 2019 to the last patch. Now he seems to do better again | ||
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
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661
71 Posts
On August 25 2022 21:28 Poopi wrote: Well at least he travelled super early, contrary to KR players for Katowice and stuff. Still funny result Funny how? the dude atleast tried and he was very close to advance, while you're writing "welcome to code s reynor" it's pathethic how the korean elitist are shitting on Reynor now, GSL's youtube chat is just pure cancer | ||
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Poopi
France12761 Posts
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dysenterymd
1177 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
On August 25 2022 22:06 661 wrote: Funny how? the dude atleast tried and it was very close to advance, while you're writing "welcome to code s reynor" it's pathethic how the korean elitist are shitting on Reynor now, GSL's chat is just pure cancer I guess its funny if you listen to state and tasteless basically implying this group was a cakewalk for Reynor as he was far ahead anyone else and how they were hyping every small reynor victory and being blind to what their opponents were doing. Funniest is when State misunderstood the graphics and was talking how good reynor multitask and harassment was when actually he was looking at DRG numbers. Don't get me wrong, Reynor is a super fun player to watch and top tier at the game. But casters and general sc2 personas bias towards him makes me react and cheer against him. | ||
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Swisslink
2949 Posts
On August 25 2022 21:47 dbRic1203 wrote: I wouldn t even say, it favours Koreans, but players who a used to the format, wich are mostly Koreans. Special for example excells at preperation based tournaments as well, even though he isn t Korean. He was just in GSL so long,m that he is more used to preparing. On the other side Reynor didn t prepare at all but relied simply on his (ridculous high) baseline skill level. But that is clearly not enough, when your opponents have prepared specifically for playing you. Yeah, of course. I wouldn‘t ever claim it‘s because they are Korean. It‘s just that the environment in Korea benefits players that are able to prepare really well, while foreign tournaments tend to favor players that do well vs. many different opponents in just a few hours. And the players that mostly compete in one of those regions obviously excell in these fields as well. TvZ: The match up is in a really weird state right now. Not bad per se, but i feel like even the players aren‘t too sure what to do in the match up atm. | ||
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15880 Posts
On August 25 2022 22:06 661 wrote: Funny how? the dude atleast tried and he was very close to advance, while you're writing "welcome to code s reynor" it's pathethic how the korean elitist are shitting on Reynor now, GSL's youtube chat is just pure cancer There were some people saying winning GSL would be a cakewalk for Reynor so I'm glad those people were put in their place. Also I don't think "Welcome to Code S" is particularly disrespectful?? | ||
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
On August 25 2022 22:20 Charoisaur wrote: There were some people saying winning GSL would be a cakewalk for Reynor so I'm glad those people were put in their place. Also I don't think "Welcome to Code S" is particularly disrespectful?? I mean, it's just like that time State got proxied by Classic in his first ever proleague game and everyone either said "Welcome to proleague" or "welcome to Korea", that's just a historic saying at this point, but definitely not disrespectful. More like respectful to South korea's skill and how hard it is to be good there. | ||
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tigera6
3221 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2429 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
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Mozdk
Denmark6989 Posts
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
On August 25 2022 22:24 Mozdk wrote: There's only one gold right? T can't split map on this map. Terran trades much better in this situation so a 1 base advantage might not be enough. If he manages to deny or take the bottom left himself, it's another story though. | ||
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
Might wanna get carapace upgrades though. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
Fuck your Ghosts! I'm the motherfucking DRG! - DRG probably. | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
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tigera6
3221 Posts
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Schelim
Austria11528 Posts
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
Noice. | ||
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
On August 25 2022 22:30 tigera6 wrote: I think Dream botched his defense somehow, there was no reason for him to let lingbane Muta get that many good hits. Feels like he fought a bit too much with packed marines instead of just straight up running away with them (or splitting if he fancies that) while letting his splash units do the work. | ||
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geokilla
Canada8224 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2429 Posts
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Swisslink
2949 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2429 Posts
On August 25 2022 22:31 geokilla wrote: Wow Reynor getting knocked out. Koreans saying "GET OUT OF MY HOUSE" It is not shameful to lose against DRG. DRG managed to knocked out Rogue before unexpectedly. | ||
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Garnet
Vietnam9013 Posts
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dysenterymd
1177 Posts
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Solio
France145 Posts
koreans are just on another level in sc2, GSL code S is just a different kind of tournament, not the same skill level when you prepare many days ahead of your matches | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1460 Posts
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tigera6
3221 Posts
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Poopi
France12761 Posts
On August 25 2022 22:20 Charoisaur wrote: There were some people saying winning GSL would be a cakewalk for Reynor so I'm glad those people were put in their place. Also I don't think "Welcome to Code S" is particularly disrespectful?? Personally it's a reference to "welcome to the NBA!" thing where young promising players get some sense of reality of the toughness of the "big league", but I am sure it exists in other sports too. Afaik it's banter and not offensive / disrespectful and was not meant that way. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On August 25 2022 22:06 661 wrote: Funny how? the dude atleast tried and he was very close to advance, while you're writing "welcome to code s reynor" it's pathethic how the korean elitist are shitting on Reynor now, GSL's youtube chat is just pure cancer It's a shame that Reynor didn't make it out because he's good enough to fight for the trophy and there's only 3 or 4 other players that the real GSL battle is between (herO Maru Dark). But it is also somewhat funny when players get hyped and then lose immediately. It happens in every kind of competition. Especially when Reynor was on Harstem's youtube series saying things like "I don't watch GSL because the level of play isn't that good" (even if he was surely joking). It's a shame but it's still funny. It would also be funny if Maru or Dark somehow qualified for Dreamhack europe and then lost right away. | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1460 Posts
On August 25 2022 22:37 tigera6 wrote: Reynor might just not playing in GSL again until they let him off-racing Protoss in PvZ When ur goal is to win the whole thing and you lose in the first round, you kind of have to try again. Tucking tail and running home would be embarrassing otherwise. | ||
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661
71 Posts
On August 25 2022 22:11 Argonauta wrote: I guess its funny if you listen to state and tasteless basically implying this group was a cakewalk for Reynor as he was far ahead anyone else and how they were hyping every small reynor victory and being blind to what their opponents were doing. Funniest is when State misunderstood the graphics and was talking how good reynor multitask and harassment was when actually he was looking at DRG numbers. Don't get me wrong, Reynor is a super fun player to watch and top tier at the game. But casters and general sc2 personas bias towards him makes me react and cheer against him. I'm at work and had to watch it muted, but I've to watch the VOD after reading your comment :D On August 25 2022 22:20 Charoisaur wrote: There were some people saying winning GSL would be a cakewalk for Reynor so I'm glad those people were put in their place. Also I don't think "Welcome to Code S" is particularly disrespectful?? I think I just got a bit tilted after reading the GSL's youtube chat when Reynor got eliminated atleast 5 diff guy wrote, Reynor said GSL will be an easy win for him, he never said that and if anyone says GSL can be "easy" for any SC player just straight up dumb anyway i'm just sad he cant go a little deeper and I'm hoping he will try it again | ||
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tigera6
3221 Posts
On August 25 2022 22:38 CicadaSC wrote: When ur goal is to win the whole thing and you lose I the first round, you kind of have to try again. Reynor has said that he want to stay away from the shit-show that is ZvZ, and he ended up getting eliminated because of ZvZ. So I dont know if he wants to go through this again. | ||
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Solio
France145 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/hBjjLSx/1654568786-untitled-6.png) User was warned for this post | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
On August 25 2022 22:41 tigera6 wrote: Reynor has said that he want to stay away from the shit-show that is ZvZ, and he ended up getting eliminated because of ZvZ. So I dont know if he wants to go through this again. He also lost a ZvT | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
On August 25 2022 22:41 tigera6 wrote: Reynor has said that he want to stay away from the shit-show that is ZvZ, and he ended up getting eliminated because of ZvZ. So I dont know if he wants to go through this again. He could have won this whole group on his TvZ but he didn't. I don't think he uses the race swapping thing as an excuse for giving up, but if he does then whatever, he's not as competitive as I thought he was. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On August 25 2022 22:41 tigera6 wrote: Reynor has said that he want to stay away from the shit-show that is ZvZ, and he ended up getting eliminated because of ZvZ. So I dont know if he wants to go through this again. If you struggle in one match up you'll have a hard time winning GSL but it's still possible. Plenty of players have won off the back of one match up and some bracket luck | ||
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geokilla
Canada8224 Posts
On August 25 2022 22:41 tigera6 wrote: Reynor has said that he want to stay away from the shit-show that is ZvZ, and he ended up getting eliminated because of ZvZ. So I dont know if he wants to go through this again. If he won is ZvT match against Bunny, he would have won. But Bunny is one of the strongest Terran players right now. He literally got better overnight. ZvZ isn't even that volatile. I still think PvP is worse. | ||
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Moonerz
United States442 Posts
) you can lose early on. As opposed to WCS where even if Reynor is sub par early on in the tournament hes not going to lose to those players. Had Reynor beat Bunny I think he gets out in first place in the group but once he lost that match it was always going to be tough for him. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
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Cricketer12
United States13968 Posts
On August 25 2022 11:39 Cricketer12 wrote: I lb'd bunny drg. I dont think reynor makes it through. 😎 | ||
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Husyelt
United States823 Posts
On August 25 2022 23:19 Moonerz wrote: I just think it shows the difference between WCS EU/NA and GSL. People always clown when Maru or other big KR players bomb out early in GSL but really its just the level across the board is higher so if you have a bad day (or Rogue being lazy after a tourney win ) you can lose early on. As opposed to WCS where even if Reynor is sub par early on in the tournament hes not going to lose to those players. Had Reynor beat Bunny I think he gets out in first place in the group but once he lost that match it was always going to be tough for him. GSL’s prestige is somewhat artificial in that you have to literally fly across the world to an island country and qualify there locally, spending a month to win. When it comes down to it, if you have an easy group and advance you go straight to the RO10. I consider Katowice to be harder than a GSL tbh. At least Reynor beat Zoun and Dream to qualify, not the worst performance. Astrea also showed great games, hope they both return. | ||
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Schelim
Austria11528 Posts
Is it tho | ||
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nlhtrung
1 Post
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
3 sides bordered by ocean and the most militarized border in the world on its 4th side. Close enough right? | ||
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
On August 26 2022 00:09 Husyelt wrote: GSL’s prestige is somewhat artificial in that you have to literally fly across the world to an island country and qualify there locally, spending a month to win. When it comes down to it, if you have an easy group and advance you go straight to the RO10. I consider Katowice to be harder than a GSL tbh. At least Reynor beat Zoun and Dream to qualify, not the worst performance. Astrea also showed great games, hope they both return. Katowice is literally the culmination of the year in terms of tournaments so I'd hope it's harder than GSL yeah lol | ||
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JJH777
United States4378 Posts
On August 26 2022 00:09 Husyelt wrote: GSL’s prestige is somewhat artificial in that you have to literally fly across the world to an island country and qualify there locally, spending a month to win. When it comes down to it, if you have an easy group and advance you go straight to the RO10. I consider Katowice to be harder than a GSL tbh. At least Reynor beat Zoun and Dream to qualify, not the worst performance. Astrea also showed great games, hope they both return. If Katowice is the only thing harder than GSL then that's pretty damn prestigious... What group would have been easier for Reynor than this one? That's the thing about GSL. There are no truly easy groups. Serral/Reynor are overrated because of their consistency but being consistent when you have near byes the first two rounds of all but a couple events a year is a lot easier than being consistent in Korea where even if you're one of the best you play against players who can eliminate you in every single round of both GSL and Super Tournament. | ||
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1060 Posts
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RKC
2848 Posts
Do Serral and Reynor travel by bus or train to Katowice and all live EU tourneys? Top foreigner pros afraid of flying? The distance and time zone difference isn't as bad as NA. Yet, Special and Neeb have no qualms travelling. And what's wrong with staying over a month for the competition? Is the World Cup less prestigious than the Champions League because the poor players have to camp and rough out in some desolate non-first world country (or 'island country' like South Korea and Japan) for a month to win the World Cup rather than playing under the lights of Paris or Wembley? | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
On August 26 2022 01:27 RKC wrote: Korea is an 'island country' - how in Aiur does that even matter? Do Serral and Reynor travel by bus or train to Katowice and all live EU tourneys? Top foreigner pros afraid of flying? The distance and time zone difference isn't as bad as NA. Yet, Special and Neeb have no qualms travelling. And what's wrong with staying over a month for the competition? Is the World Cup less prestigious than the Champions League because the poor players have to camp and rough out in some desolate non-first world country (or 'island country' like South Korea and Japan) for a month to win the World Cup rather than playing under the lights of Paris or Wembley? It's just massive amounts of copium from the fans that are DESPERATE to say that foreigners are the best SC2 players now despite all evidence to the contrary. The biggest indicator of how untrue that is that no foreigner has ever won a GSL Code S, in fact the closest thing we've seen was Jinro back in 2010. In 12 years no one has gotten closer than he has. So rather than encourage more foreign fans from competing in GSL these are fans that would rather try and diminish the GSL's importance and they come up with all sorts of ridiculous justifications such as "omg you we gotta travel to KOREA!!!?" even though Koreans have to travel to international tournaments to compete but they're Korean so they should be expected to come to us. It's a double standard that has existed in SC2 since as far back as the MLG days. So now that the consensus top 2 player in the non-Korean world just went and bombed out in the first round of Code S all of the excuses and justifications for him losing are going to come out because it's easier for these guys to bash the GSL than to admit that Korea is still the most competitive region or that the star player had a poor showing. | ||
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RogerChillingworth
2826 Posts
I don't see Reynor sticking around in KR but I hope he does and comes back stronger next time. | ||
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Khabra
Poland33 Posts
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HeroSandro
521 Posts
On August 26 2022 02:16 Khabra wrote: This result by Reynor puts a massive doubt on 'goat discussion', in my opinion, as he was quite successful in rivalry with Serral on foreign scene. Looks like Koreans try much harder in gsl than other tournaments. Korea still the powerhouse! Or Reynor does not try that much when in Korea. People are really overreacting to one result. Reynor winning or losing does not proof anything. Reynor is not the avatar of every foreigner ever. | ||
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JJH777
United States4378 Posts
On August 26 2022 02:01 RogerChillingworth wrote: It's just 1 day of games holy shit it doesn't mean that Reynor sucks or that Korea is super dominant still. It's SC2. It's a super volatile game. Peanut gallery chads popping off in forum chats while their hearthstone turn timer burns down. I don't see Reynor sticking around in KR but I hope he does and comes back stronger next time. Of course it doesn't mean Reynor sucks. It's just a nice wake up call to all the people who have used top Koreans lack of consistency against them in various arguments. They aren't inconsistent GSL and Super tournament are just harder than anything besides world championships. | ||
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ShowTheLights
Korea (South)1669 Posts
On August 25 2022 11:30 ShowTheLights wrote: Reynor gets out of this group easily Bunny falls out Whelp......... | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
Korean pros have won both. Foreigners have yet to achieve both feats. That's why people think that GSL is important for foreigners. Not because GSL is better or harder, but because winning GSL would prove that the foreigner is truly a complete player - a champion of all seasons. | ||
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Kitai
United States869 Posts
And no, I'm not a Reynor/EU fan boy - the same is true on the other side whenever he or Serral takes a championship against top KR players or a weaker foreigner has a good day and upsets a good KR player. Where are my fellow moderates at?  | ||
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
On August 25 2022 11:30 ShowTheLights wrote: Reynor gets out of this group easily Bunny falls out Two seasons in a row, man, might be time for you to reevaluate your Bunny opinions On August 26 2022 02:34 Kitai wrote: The amount of reading into one player in one group stage to make sweeping statements about the state of SC2 regions in this thread is wild. It's like everyone's world view hangs in the delicate balance of the latest result so they can either make excuses or say they were right all along and are the smartest and wisest SC2 fan ever as proven by two best of threes. And no, I'm not a Reynor/EU fan boy - the same is true on the other side whenever he or Serral takes a championship against top KR players or a weaker foreigner has a good day and upsets a good KR player. Where are my fellow moderates at? We don't talk because there isn't much to say other than "GSL is tough, better luck next time" | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24192 Posts
Going to rewatch the games now to see if preparation played a huge role in the Bunny loss or not. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
I feel like because he often has very good series against Serral, similar to Clem, Serral gets a bit underrated by some people. But Serral in terms of winrate does noticeably better against top Korean players compared to Clem and Reynor with 68% Korean winrate (70% offline amazingly) since start of 2018. And note that Serral usually plays top Koreans too. Still, I applaud Reynor for taking the risk to play GSL and I still think he was a favourite to win it even though he got knocked out early. My point earlier is that people suggesting Serral doesn't want to compete in GSL because he's scared of losing I think is unrealistic. | ||
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Husyelt
United States823 Posts
On August 26 2022 01:51 Vindicare605 wrote: It's just massive amounts of copium from the fans that are DESPERATE to say that foreigners are the best SC2 players now despite all evidence to the contrary. The biggest indicator of how untrue that is that no foreigner has ever won a GSL Code S, in fact the closest thing we've seen was Jinro back in 2010. In 12 years no one has gotten closer than he has. So rather than encourage more foreign fans from competing in GSL these are fans that would rather try and diminish the GSL's importance and they come up with all sorts of ridiculous justifications such as "omg you we gotta travel to KOREA!!!?" even though Koreans have to travel to international tournaments to compete but they're Korean so they should be expected to come to us. It's a double standard that has existed in SC2 since as far back as the MLG days. So now that the consensus top 2 player in the non-Korean world just went and bombed out in the first round of Code S all of the excuses and justifications for him losing are going to come out because it's easier for these guys to bash the GSL than to admit that Korea is still the most competitive region or that the star player had a poor showing. I’m not desperate, I think Maru is the GOAT followed closely by Serral and Rogue. Like .5% differences. The top 10 current* players are probably 7/10 Koreans. You don’t need to inflict hyperbole to the discussion. Enjoy the gloat, and glee while you can I guess. Koreans joining and winning foreign tourneys is a good thing, same as foreigners coming to Korea, even if it’s GSL vs the World or GSL proper. | ||
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[Phantom]
Mexico2170 Posts
HOPEFULLY this will once and for all eliminate those disscussions about him and serral being the GOATs. You simply cannot be the GOAT if you havent won a GSL. GSL is the longest running tournament of all. The most prestigious and the most difficult. Raynor is a great player, but he was arrogant and paid for it. IF there is a GSL next year, maybe he can try again and will surely prepare better. In the mean time, it is just clear how much difficult GSL is. | ||
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BelethielQT
90 Posts
On August 26 2022 03:14 [Phantom] wrote: I'm happy. Im SO HAPPY that Reynor lost. Not only did he lose he was humilliated being the first player to be eliminated in his group. HOPEFULLY this will once and for all eliminate those disscussions about him and serral being the GOATs. You simply cannot be the GOAT if you havent won a GSL. GSL is the longest running tournament of all. The most prestigious and the most difficult. Raynor is a great player, but he was arrogant and paid for it. IF there is a GSL next year, maybe he can try again and will surely prepare better. In the mean time, it is just clear how much difficult GSL is. delusional | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13968 Posts
Phenomenal first post, welcome to the forum | ||
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darklycid
3375 Posts
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Schelim
Austria11528 Posts
On August 26 2022 03:29 darklycid wrote: goat debate way too polarised. you made that sound like a tabloid headline but I agree can't we all just get along and accept GSL is hard. like, really hard. | ||
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serendipitous
Canada195 Posts
I'm conflicted on Reynors loss, I like him a lot and the tournament would definitely be more interesting if he got further, but it also makes me sad thinking of Koreans who lose their spots and money to foreign players who benefit from region lock. It does emphasise just how high level the GSL is though, it's a real deep tournament. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15880 Posts
On August 26 2022 02:01 RogerChillingworth wrote: It's just 1 day of games holy shit it doesn't mean that Reynor sucks or that Korea is super dominant still. It's SC2. It's a super volatile game. Peanut gallery chads popping off in forum chats while their hearthstone turn timer burns down. I don't see Reynor sticking around in KR but I hope he does and comes back stronger next time. It does prove that everyone can lose in the first round of GSL. Which is why it's such a hard tournament and why winning it is so prestigious. | ||
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Poopi
France12761 Posts
On August 26 2022 02:16 Khabra wrote: This result by Reynor puts a massive doubt on 'goat discussion', in my opinion, as he was quite successful in rivalry with Serral on foreign scene. Looks like Koreans try much harder in gsl than other tournaments. Korea still the powerhouse! Serral is not really in serious GOAT discussion considering even Rogue has an asterisk despite having the best resume, because he only started dominating after kespa was gone. Maru has had success before but lacks WC, while INno lacks WC as well | ||
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BelethielQT
90 Posts
On August 26 2022 04:41 Poopi wrote: Serral is not really in serious GOAT discussion considering even Rogue has an asterisk despite having the best resume, because he only started dominating after kespa was gone. Maru has had success before but lacks WC, while INno lacks WC as well and u are the one who decide who is goat and who is not? | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1460 Posts
On August 26 2022 05:09 BelethielQT wrote: and u are the one who decide who is goat and who is not? i mean can u be the goat if u dont even play code s, the hardest tournament? seems like a bit of a meme. | ||
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BelethielQT
90 Posts
On August 26 2022 05:22 CicadaSC wrote: i mean can u be the goat if u dont even play code s, the hardest tournament? seems like a bit of a meme. since when is code s the hardest tournament? | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1460 Posts
On August 26 2022 05:24 BelethielQT wrote: since when is code s the hardest tournament? since 2010 | ||
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BelethielQT
90 Posts
its ok to be wrong | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13968 Posts
Impossible. GSL isn't a weekend long tournament held in Sweden. Tier 3 Minor at best. | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13968 Posts
Glad you can accept yourself for your faults | ||
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BelethielQT
90 Posts
On August 26 2022 05:28 Cricketer12 wrote: Glad you can accept yourself for your faults  i see u cant accept the reality | ||
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Khabra
Poland33 Posts
On August 26 2022 04:41 Poopi wrote: Serral is not really in serious GOAT discussion considering even Rogue has an asterisk despite having the best resume, because he only started dominating after kespa was gone. Maru has had success before but lacks WC, while INno lacks WC as well In fact I agree with all what you wrote. However at least whilst reading this forum i came across multiple opinions stating sth completely different especially about Serral being goat. I was referring more to these. I don't wish bad to anyone. I just wanted to express my absolute personal subjective feeling, in context of today's results, Serral now needs to at least try appearing in gsl to emphasis / confirm that he's equal or even superior (as some claim), in comparison to top Koreans. I also wanted to undermine statement that because of quite recent successes in non-gsl events, He should be considered such. Reynor finishing last in first group stage is a huge suprise to me and i think it a tells the story about priorities for Korean players as the Zerg is one of a very very top performers on foreign scene. I disagree one can say he didn't care today or tried 'not as hard' - I think he had something to prove... Maybe it is too much said basing on a single result, anyway I find it remarkable. I don't even find anyone clear goat, however such discussion controversy exists. I think it's a good thing we have a few 'olimp' players, we can admire, be excited about rivalry between. btw the more kudos to players like Scarlett, Neeb, Special who had some successes there. | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13968 Posts
Name 1 tournament harder than GSL | ||
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allmotor1
152 Posts
On August 26 2022 05:24 BelethielQT wrote: since when is code s the hardest tournament? since the dawn and inception sc2 history? | ||
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allmotor1
152 Posts
he can't that's why it's a new account to troll | ||
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Die4Ever
United States17610 Posts
On August 25 2022 21:47 dbRic1203 wrote: I wouldn t even say, it favours Koreans, but players who a used to the format, wich are mostly Koreans. Special for example excells at preperation based tournaments as well, even though he isn t Korean. He was just in GSL so long,m that he is more used to preparing. On the other side Reynor didn t prepare at all but relied simply on his (ridculous high) baseline skill level. But that is clearly not enough, when your opponents have prepared specifically for playing you. in the interview at the end, DRG said he didn't prepare for ZvZ/Reynor | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13968 Posts
On August 26 2022 05:59 Die4Ever wrote: in the interview at the end, DRG said he didn't prepare for ZvZ/Reynor Focusing on tougher opponents. Good strategy | ||
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Cold-Blood
United States200 Posts
On August 26 2022 06:24 Cricketer12 wrote: Focusing on tougher opponents. Good strategy he said in the pre-recorded questions between matches he was worried about him and expected him the go all the way, exactly like bunny and dream, he also offered the only nostradamus opinion stating he was interested to see reynor in a long-form style tournament which obviously gave him a bit of misstep on his first attempt to change the subject a little, sheesh i love state and tasteless what a great combo, tasteosis will always have GOAT status, but I am not mad one bit to continue on with this for the future, i know artosis and tasteless love sc2 but it is nice to have someone who plays regularly as well | ||
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Kitaen
Austria466 Posts
Starting to get good at a game when the pro scene is essentially crippled it like bragging on World of Warcraft PvE achievements in 2022. The only active players that can be mentioned in such discussion are Maru (since he was good when SC2 was still big) and Serral since he was SO dominant. Yet there are a lot more players that would have priority such as MVP, Life and Innovation. | ||
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tigera6
3221 Posts
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HeroSandro
521 Posts
On August 26 2022 03:14 [Phantom] wrote: I'm happy. Im SO HAPPY that Reynor lost. Not only did he lose he was humilliated being the first player to be eliminated in his group. HOPEFULLY this will once and for all eliminate those disscussions about him and serral being the GOATs. You simply cannot be the GOAT if you havent won a GSL. GSL is the longest running tournament of all. The most prestigious and the most difficult. Raynor is a great player, but he was arrogant and paid for it. IF there is a GSL next year, maybe he can try again and will surely prepare better. In the mean time, it is just clear how much difficult GSL is. How on earth Reynor losing means Serral is not a GOAT? Just thinking about the logic in this statement 😂The GOAT discussion is fruitles as everyone has their own criteria (have to win GSL etc). | ||
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gobbledydook
Australia2599 Posts
On August 26 2022 02:53 [PkF] Wire wrote: I was pretty confident about Bunny, but I can confess now that my mouse hovered for a very long time over DRG before I voted Reynor. I expected something like this, should have gone with my guts. I hope Reynor and foreigners in general don't give up on GSL, but that kind of result shows how insanely hard it remains to win that particular tourney. Going to rewatch the games now to see if preparation played a huge role in the Bunny loss or not. It seemed that Reynor got parade pushed twice. | ||
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neveranexit
14 Posts
the darkest day for EU SC2 Hard to imagine a more shameful result | ||
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Seacow
Sweden99 Posts
But as others have pointed out, Reynor's loss really drove home the point that GSL is a unique tournament. Bunny's two base pushes is a testament to the importance of preparation, Reynor seemed indecisive and unsure how to handle them. That's the beauty of GSL I suppose, the 200 IQ prep work bearing fruit. Weekend tournaments lack this component, but test other skills (endurance? Spontaneous adaptation?). What that means for goat discussions is not something with an objectice answer. There's merit to both tournament styles. Still, sad to see Reynor get knocked out. Despite this disappointing result I still consider him a world class player. Better luck (and prep?) next time! Also, some very unsavoury replies in this thread after his loss. Schadenfreude is ugly. | ||
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661
71 Posts
On August 26 2022 03:14 [Phantom] wrote: I'm happy. Im SO HAPPY that Reynor lost. Not only did he lose he was humilliated being the first player to be eliminated in his group. HOPEFULLY this will once and for all eliminate those disscussions about him and serral being the GOATs. You simply cannot be the GOAT if you havent won a GSL. GSL is the longest running tournament of all. The most prestigious and the most difficult. Raynor is a great player, but he was arrogant and paid for it. IF there is a GSL next year, maybe he can try again and will surely prepare better. In the mean time, it is just clear how much difficult GSL is. Im glad you’ve find something to be happy about | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15880 Posts
On August 26 2022 12:17 HeroSandro wrote: How on earth Reynor losing means Serral is not a GOAT? Just thinking about the logic in this statement 😂The GOAT discussion is fruitles as everyone has their own criteria (have to win GSL etc). Well some people said Serral would easily win the GSL if he ever tried and don't want to give him minus points for not having a ,GSL trophy because "he could have won it anytime if he wanted" so I think this shows winning the GSL is not as easy as some people thought | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15880 Posts
On August 26 2022 11:59 Kitaen wrote: As for the GOAT discussion, it is absolutely ridiculous to even mention Reynor, lol. He has literally not even a top 10 spot. Starting to get good at a game when the pro scene is essentially crippled it like bragging on World of Warcraft PvE achievements in 2022. The only active players that can be mentioned in such discussion are Maru (since he was good when SC2 was still big) and Serral since he was SO dominant. Yet there are a lot more players that would have priority such as MVP, Life and Innovation. I think it's either Maru or Rogue depending on criteria and shortly behind them Serral and Inno | ||
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Schelim
Austria11528 Posts
On August 26 2022 17:10 Charoisaur wrote: Well some people said Serral would easily win the GSL if he ever tried and don't want to give him minus points for not having a ,GSL trophy because "he could have won it anytime if he wanted" so I think this shows winning the GSL is not as easy as some people thought anyone who says someone could win a GSL "easily" on their first attempt is not worth listening to anyway | ||
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
And on the overdone GOAT debate: I think this helps to show how impressive Maru and Rogue's 4 GSLs really are - they indicate prowess in a kind of cut-throat high-prep format that Serral hasn't been tested in. That said, I'd expect Serral would have a better shot at getting through that group than Reynor. | ||
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dysenterymd
1177 Posts
On August 26 2022 17:10 Charoisaur wrote: Well some people said Serral would easily win the GSL if he ever tried and don't want to give him minus points for not having a ,GSL trophy because "he could have won it anytime if he wanted" so I think this shows winning the GSL is not as easy as some people thought If Serral spent a year living in Korea and focusing hard on GSL I think he'd have a good chance of winning a season, but I doubt he could fly in and just snatch the trophy lol. Also any Reynor goat discussion is ridiculous. He's clearly an incredible talent, but his trophy case is well behind so many players (Serral, Rogue, Maru, Inno, Zest, sOs, MVP) and his world championship was played online. If competitive SC2 goes on for a while and he becomes more consistent he maybe has a chance to enter the conversation. (My 2 cents is that Rogue is pretty clearly the goat, even if I'm not a huge fan of him) | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6805 Posts
On August 26 2022 03:14 [Phantom] wrote: I'm happy. Im SO HAPPY that Reynor lost. Not only did he lose he was humilliated being the first player to be eliminated in his group. HOPEFULLY this will once and for all eliminate those disscussions about him and serral being the GOATs. You simply cannot be the GOAT if you havent won a GSL. GSL is the longest running tournament of all. The most prestigious and the most difficult. Raynor is a great player, but he was arrogant and paid for it. IF there is a GSL next year, maybe he can try again and will surely prepare better. In the mean time, it is just clear how much difficult GSL is. Reynor lost ergo Serral can't be GOAT... wait! what? Since when is Reynor the top forgein contender for GOAT anyway? IMO Reynor doesn't hold a candle to Serral who is arguably in the top 3 of all time depending on metrics and whatnot | ||
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pandorasheep
73 Posts
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HolydaKing
21254 Posts
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pandorasheep
73 Posts
On August 26 2022 23:04 HolydaKing wrote: Without knowing statistics and purely by my own feeling, Serral has way more solid results against Koreans and chokes less against them. Still sorta disappointing by Reynor. In GSL code s? | ||
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HeroSandro
521 Posts
No need to play dumb. | ||
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JJH777
United States4378 Posts
On August 26 2022 22:22 Harris1st wrote: Reynor lost ergo Serral can't be GOAT... wait! what? Since when is Reynor the top forgein contender for GOAT anyway? IMO Reynor doesn't hold a candle to Serral who is arguably in the top 3 of all time depending on metrics and whatnot This logic makes perfect sense to me. One of the main things people use to justify calling Serral goat is his winrate vs Koreans and consistency because he definitely doesn't have the trophies for it. His winrate and consistency is inflated due to not playing in KR tournaments though. If he played in Korea for a while he'd probably have more important trophies but I bet his winrate vs Koreans would be way lower. I'm sure his fans would have decided trophies are more important than winrates if that happened. | ||
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phodacbiet
United States1739 Posts
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HeroSandro
521 Posts
On August 27 2022 02:17 JJH777 wrote: This logic makes perfect sense to me. One of the main things people use to justify calling Serral goat is his winrate vs Koreans and consistency because he definitely doesn't have the trophies for it. His winrate and consistency is inflated due to not playing in KR tournaments though. If he played in Korea for a while he'd probably have more important trophies but I bet his winrate vs Koreans would be way lower. I'm sure his fans would have decided trophies are more important than winrates if that happened. Serral has a good winrate against koreans. You think it would be lower if he played in Korea. One is a fact, one is speculation. According to your metrics only tournament that matters is GSL as Serral has won every other major tournamnent if i’m not forgetting something. You are simply downplaying every achiemnet Serral has. Edit: just be honest with the fact, that you are as biased as we all are. There is no objective way to measure who is the goat. Every metric is subjective. | ||
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JJH777
United States4378 Posts
On August 27 2022 03:47 HeroSandro wrote: Serral has a good winrate against koreans. You think it would be lower if he played in Korea. One is a fact, one is speculation. According to your metrics only tournament that matters is GSL as Serral has won every other major tournamnent if i’m not forgetting something. You are simply downplaying every achiemnet Serral has. Edit: just be honest with the fact, that you are as biased as we all are. There is no objective way to measure who is the goat. Every metric is subjective. I think trophies > all for goat determination was pretty widely accepted before Serral. Serral has an impressive trophy list but when compared to Rogue, Maru, or even Inno with no context it's pretty obvious their lists are better. I can usually get even people who think Serral's the goat to admit that much. Especially before he won IEM. Their argument always becomes centered around aligulac or records vs top Koreans after that which are things no one really cared about before Serral. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15880 Posts
On August 27 2022 04:50 JJH777 wrote: I think trophies > all for goat determination was pretty widely accepted before Serral. Serral has an impressive trophy list but when compared to Rogue, Maru, or even Inno with no context it's pretty obvious their lists are better. I can usually get even people who think Serral's the goat to admit that much. Especially before he won IEM. Their argument always becomes centered around aligulac or records vs top Koreans after that which are things no one really cared about before Serral. Yeah or they talk about his prize money won and liquipedia premier tournaments won but strangely nobody seriously considered those criteria when MC and TaeJa topped those lists. | ||
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HeroSandro
521 Posts
On August 27 2022 04:50 JJH777 wrote: I think trophies > all for goat determination was pretty widely accepted before Serral. Serral has an impressive trophy list but when compared to Rogue, Maru, or even Inno with no context it's pretty obvious their lists are better. I can usually get even people who think Serral's the goat to admit that much. Especially before he won IEM. Their argument always becomes centered around aligulac or records vs top Koreans after that which are things no one really cared about before Serral. What are the trophies Serral is missing besides gsl? If there is none, you have just created an arbitrary rule that the goat has to have won gsl. Nothing wrong with that, but it is a subjective metric. Opinions are not facts. | ||
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kajtarp
Hungary465 Posts
On August 27 2022 03:47 HeroSandro wrote: Serral has a good winrate against koreans. You think it would be lower if he played in Korea. One is a fact, one is speculation. According to your metrics only tournament that matters is GSL as Serral has won every other major tournamnent if i’m not forgetting something. You are simply downplaying every achiemnet Serral has. Edit: just be honest with the fact, that you are as biased as we all are. There is no objective way to measure who is the goat. Every metric is subjective. Imagine calling someone the best basketball player while said person never played in the NBA. This is in no way downplaying Serral's achievment, just my personal opinion. GLS is pretty much the "NBA" of SC2. | ||
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JJH777
United States4378 Posts
On August 27 2022 05:25 HeroSandro wrote: What are the trophies Serral is missing besides gsl? If there is none, you have just created an arbitrary rule that the goat has to have won gsl. Nothing wrong with that, but it is a subjective metric. Opinions are not facts. He's not missing any. He just has less trophies with top competition. Region locked WCS is always missing almost all of the top 30. And HSC is usually missing a bunch of top Koreans and is way too EU heavy plus has a low prize pool. If you look at events that have the large majority (let's say 80% of the top 20) of top pros present how many trophies does Serral have? IEM and Blizzcon are basically it. Season finals were limited to 6 Koreans and due to region locking always had 3-4 really weak players. GSL vs the World limited to 8 Koreans, had vote ins for almost half the slots and forced race representation to be almost equal regardless of .. That's pretty much everything hes won. Even if we ignore that and count season finals and GSL vs the World as equal to the highest tier events that's only 7 top tier events. Maru has 10 and Rogue has 11. | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13968 Posts
On August 27 2022 04:50 JJH777 wrote: I think trophies > all for goat determination was pretty widely accepted before Serral. Serral has an impressive trophy list but when compared to Rogue, Maru, or even Inno with no context it's pretty obvious their lists are better. I can usually get even people who think Serral's the goat to admit that much. Especially before he won IEM. Their argument always becomes centered around aligulac or records vs top Koreans after that which are things no one really cared about before Serral. It wasn't or else Taeja would be the GOAT | ||
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royalroadweed
United States8301 Posts
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On August 27 2022 09:19 royalroadweed wrote: The format matters. Could serral consistently dominate in longer format tournaments with high level opponents preparing specifically for him on specific maps like he does in shorter form tournaments? We've seen past players be better in one format over the other. For all we know he could be like taeja where had can consistently dominate elite GSL caliber players in weekenders but is underwhelming in GSL format. We won't know until he tries. that's a good point | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24402 Posts
On August 27 2022 02:17 JJH777 wrote: This logic makes perfect sense to me. One of the main things people use to justify calling Serral goat is his winrate vs Koreans and consistency because he definitely doesn't have the trophies for it. His winrate and consistency is inflated due to not playing in KR tournaments though. If he played in Korea for a while he'd probably have more important trophies but I bet his winrate vs Koreans would be way lower. I'm sure his fans would have decided trophies are more important than winrates if that happened. It would probably be higher. Serral’s v Korean winrate is mostly based off playing the top dogs in international tournaments. He largely doesn’t play the low/mid tier Code S players so if anything he’d just bump up his winrate. The GOAT discussion is generally tiresome, there’s a fair few good candidates for that top tier. His stats are good, he’s won a lot. When he doesn’t win he’s placed high in almost any tournament for 3/4 years. Multiple Korean pro-gamers have eulogised about his level as player. If his Korean peers think he’s an exceptional talent that’s good enough for me. Whether he’s THE best or not, he’s certainly up there, with a bunch of other quality players. There’s pluses or minuses to most claims. Maru’s never won a world championship, and he’s been a full time SC2 pro for a decade. Rogue’s won a lot but he’s been streaky and hasn’t had extended periods of proper dominance. Inno was profoundly mediocre for 2/3 years etc etc | ||
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JJH777
United States4378 Posts
On August 27 2022 10:58 WombaT wrote: It would probably be higher. Serral’s v Korean winrate is mostly based off playing the top dogs in international tournaments. He largely doesn’t play the low/mid tier Code S players so if anything he’d just bump up his winrate. The GOAT discussion is generally tiresome, there’s a fair few good candidates for that top tier. His stats are good, he’s won a lot. When he doesn’t win he’s placed high in almost any tournament for 3/4 years. Multiple Korean pro-gamers have eulogised about his level as player. If his Korean peers think he’s an exceptional talent that’s good enough for me. Whether he’s THE best or not, he’s certainly up there, with a bunch of other quality players. There’s pluses or minuses to most claims. Maru’s never won a world championship, and he’s been a full time SC2 pro for a decade. Rogue’s won a lot but he’s been streaky and hasn’t had extended periods of proper dominance. Inno was profoundly mediocre for 2/3 years etc etc HSC is his most dominant tournament and that's basically always filled with the GSL players who had a bad season. He plays the low/mid tier Code S players all the time in that and in online events. Koreans perform better in GSL than other tournaments. Most blame that on prep. I personally think it comes down more to comfort and playing closer to their peak. I think there's almost no doubt someone like Maru would do better vs Serral in GSL events than he does in other stuff. I think that's true of almost any P/T. The main reason I think his winrate would be lower is just because he'd be forced to play them all the time. I feel like Serral has had several short slumps and he's almost never had to play Koreans during them. Right now his winrate is based on a very small number of series and focused during times where he made sure to be in peak condition. As for everything else I don't disagree with most of that. As of his IEM victory he's probably top 5ish all time. Before that he was fringe top 10 though and there were already people calling him goat. Even after IEM I don't think he's a serious contender for #1 though due primarily to the trophy breakdown I listed in the other post. | ||
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angry_maia
301 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2429 Posts
On August 27 2022 14:31 angry_maia wrote: Outside of goat stuff, is there anyone that doesn't think Serral is the current most skilled player in the world? I.e. are there any current players that people would actually bet on in a bo7 against Serral? Rogue obviously, but he never plays again. Lucky for Serral, they will never met in final again and the last meet up is TSL8. I guess majority of the spectators will bet on Serral more due to the overwhelming fandoms he enjoy and the unnecessary criticism on Rogue's gameplay before the match even starts. Another person is Maru. Maru beat Serral in KOB. Since 2019 (?), Maru always crumble against Serral in quarterfinal/semifinal but strive against him in the final. Before that, Serral doesn't even stand a chance. | ||
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HeroSandro
521 Posts
On August 27 2022 14:43 swarminfestor wrote: Rogue obviously, but he never plays again. Lucky for Serral, they will never met in final again and the last meet up is TSL8. I guess majority of the spectators will bet on Serral more due to the overwhelming fandoms he enjoy and the unnecessary criticism on Rogue's gameplay before the match even starts. Another person is Maru. Maru beat Serral in KOB. Since 2019 (?), Maru always crumble against Serral in quarterfinal/semifinal but strive against him in the final. Before that, Serral doesn't even stand a chance. According to Liquipedia Serral has 7-3 series lead against Maru since 2018. Seached Serral vs Maru in LOTV. | ||
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2429 Posts
On August 27 2022 14:58 HeroSandro wrote: According to Liquipedia Serral has 7-3 series lead against Maru since 2018. Seached Serral vs Maru in LOTV. We talked about BO7, not BO5 or anything. I have already mentioned above that Maru always crumbled against Serral or anyone before he reached to meet Serral in the final. Before 2019 (?), Serral didn't stand any chance against him in any of BO5 or BO7 series. That's why whoever faces Serral in the final BO7, these two have 50-50 or higher chances to beat him. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15880 Posts
On August 27 2022 14:58 HeroSandro wrote: According to Liquipedia Serral has 7-3 series lead against Maru since 2018. Seached Serral vs Maru in LOTV. If I remember right 1 series was a bo3 on EU server and another happened at the time when Maru had such severe wrist/shoulder pain that he dropped out of another tournament, so it looks more one-sided than it really is | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15880 Posts
On August 27 2022 14:31 angry_maia wrote: Outside of goat stuff, is there anyone that doesn't think Serral is the current most skilled player in the world? I.e. are there any current players that people would actually bet on in a bo7 against Serral? Right now he clearly looks like the best player, but from 2019-2021 I think other players were better and he was "just" a top 3 player. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15880 Posts
On August 27 2022 10:58 WombaT wrote: It would probably be higher. Serral’s v Korean winrate is mostly based off playing the top dogs in international tournaments. He largely doesn’t play the low/mid tier Code S players so if anything he’d just bump up his winrate. The GOAT discussion is generally tiresome, there’s a fair few good candidates for that top tier. His stats are good, he’s won a lot. When he doesn’t win he’s placed high in almost any tournament for 3/4 years. Multiple Korean pro-gamers have eulogised about his level as player. If his Korean peers think he’s an exceptional talent that’s good enough for me. Whether he’s THE best or not, he’s certainly up there, with a bunch of other quality players. There’s pluses or minuses to most claims. Maru’s never won a world championship, and he’s been a full time SC2 pro for a decade. Rogue’s won a lot but he’s been streaky and hasn’t had extended periods of proper dominance. Inno was profoundly mediocre for 2/3 years etc etc I don't think anyone disagrees with you here and nobody argues that he's not a top player or not one of the best players in the world. People are specifically arguing about the Goat claim and I among many other people think Maru and Rogue have a better claim to that title. edit: sorry for triple post, I'm on mobile so it's difficult to combine them into one post | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15880 Posts
On August 27 2022 17:06 Charoisaur wrote: Right now he clearly looks like the best player, but from 2019-2021 I think other players were better and he was "just" a top 3 player. edit: and I think Dark would have a very good chance against him as he actually has a positive record against Serral Fuck sorry, now the quote instead of edit fail happened to me too and I've done a quatruple post.... | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
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dysenterymd
1177 Posts
On August 27 2022 14:31 angry_maia wrote: Outside of goat stuff, is there anyone that doesn't think Serral is the current most skilled player in the world? I.e. are there any current players that people would actually bet on in a bo7 against Serral? Online, I'd maybe bet on Dark in a bo7? If Reynor were still practicing ZvZ full time I'd also bet on him over Serral in an online bo7. Offline no, though I'd expect Dark/Reynor/herO/Maru to make it close. | ||
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ItzShakti
Brazil43 Posts
Even though he has been the best player since 2018, there are 3 other zergs(rogue, dark and reynor) that have done just slightly worse than him in this time. Even though he is really good, you cant really say that he is the goat because he isn't that above the other guys playing his own race. Meanwhile Maru was making ro4 in GSL in an age where there were 3 terrans out of 32 players in the tournament. He was(and still is) just so so much better than every other terran player, and, for me, that is much more meaningful than everything else. And this was in an age when korean talent was much deeper, before the mass retirements. I mean, there is a "just play like maru" but there will never be "just play like serral". | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24402 Posts
On August 27 2022 21:12 Argonauta wrote: I just love how this has evolved from a hyping up Reynor, to a dishing out Reynor to a goat argument battle between Serral and the koreans Who could have predicted this? I hope Reynor gives it another shot. I thought he’d be good enough to stride through at least groups even if he hadn’t adjusted fully to the prep format, but wasn’t to be this time. Knuckle down, prep better and he’s a good enough player to do well in this tournament. It’s not merely playing some Starcraft, it’s moving to a new locale for a while, playing a tournament format you haven’t really played before, versus veterans of that format who all have their networks of practice partners who are also used to that format. I thought Reynor’s latent level was high enough that he’d at least scrape through groups, and hey it turns out I was wrong on that. | ||
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tigera6
3221 Posts
On August 27 2022 22:18 dysenterymd wrote: Online, I'd maybe bet on Dark in a bo7? If Reynor were still practicing ZvZ full time I'd also bet on him over Serral in an online bo7. Offline no, though I'd expect Dark/Reynor/herO/Maru to make it close. Maru did beat Serral a couple times, and if it go to lategame I would still favor Maru over Serral, or anyone else, for that matter. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44046 Posts
On August 27 2022 14:31 angry_maia wrote: Outside of goat stuff, is there anyone that doesn't think Serral is the current most skilled player in the world? I.e. are there any current players that people would actually bet on in a bo7 against Serral? Current most skilled foreigner? Sure. | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8988 Posts
On August 27 2022 14:31 angry_maia wrote: Outside of goat stuff, is there anyone that doesn't think Serral is the current most skilled player in the world? I.e. are there any current players that people would actually bet on in a bo7 against Serral? I wouldn't, not sure I would bet on anyone but Serral in the last 4 years tbh. | ||
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pandorasheep
73 Posts
On August 27 2022 14:31 angry_maia wrote: Outside of goat stuff, is there anyone that doesn't think Serral is the current most skilled player in the world? I.e. are there any current players that people would actually bet on in a bo7 against Serral? Anyone who is rational and has watched the games knows Serral is nowhere near GOAT level, let alone best in Europe. He is top 5 at best. This site and Reddit are insanely blind when it comes to the Serral circle jerk. You guys need to be more rational and calm instead of just supporting MuH FoRiEgNeR | ||
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HeroSandro
521 Posts
On August 28 2022 15:20 pandorasheep wrote: Anyone who is rational and has watched the games knows Serral is nowhere near GOAT level, let alone best in Europe. He is top 5 at best. This site and Reddit are insanely blind when it comes to the Serral circle jerk. You guys need to be more rational and calm instead of just supporting MuH FoRiEgNeR Anyone who is rational clearly sees, that the sky is yellow! | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
On August 27 2022 08:56 Cricketer12 wrote: It wasn't or else Taeja would be the GOAT There's a number of people here who will regard Taeja as Top 3-5 Terran. They just focus on his achievements in foreign weekender tourneys and ignore his mediocre results in GSL. I've always been critical of this pro-Taeja bias in TL. To me, he's not even close to the Terran pantheon of Maru, Inno, TY, MVP or even Byun. The same people who rate Taeja highly are probably the same people who consider Serral as GOAT contender. It's not a foreigner bias but more of foreign tourney bias. As I've said before, I don't rate GSL higher than IEM or Blizzcon. Both are just different type of tourneys. In my humble view, a player can't claim GOAT status without succeeding in both formats and across different 2-3 expansions (HoTS and LoTV at least). | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24402 Posts
On August 28 2022 19:29 RKC wrote: There's a number of people here who will regard Taeja as Top 3-5 Terran. They just focus on his achievements in foreign weekender tourneys and ignore his mediocre results in GSL. I've always been critical of this pro-Taeja bias in TL. To me, he's not even close to the Terran pantheon of Maru, Inno, TY, MVP or even Byun. The same people who rate Taeja highly are probably the same people who consider Serral as GOAT contender. It's not a foreigner bias but more of foreign tourney bias. As I've said before, I don't rate GSL higher than IEM or Blizzcon. Both are just different type of tourneys. In my humble view, a player can't claim GOAT status without succeeding in both formats and across different 2-3 expansions (HoTS and LoTV at least). Taeja in full flow was ridiculous. I rate him highly more for the level of play he showed when at his best, over the various tournaments he won. One can only, for me be in the conversation, to define a definitive GOAT is too difficult, or exclusionary based on circumstance. Is Maru greater than x other player by being a progamer since Wings, on Prime and Jin Air, very strong teams in differing eras, and largely injury free? I’m not picking on Maru’s claim but he’s basically the only progamer in the GOAT conversation that ticks all those boxes, so he basically becomes the GOAT by default. Less so now, but the prep format has dovetailed neatly with being part of a strong team. Latterly having formed friendships in the scene fills that hole, and practice partners across teams has long been a thing. But any foreigner giving Code S a shot doesn’t have that network to immediately tap into. There’s a whole bunch of structural/circumstances that differ through the scene so I tend towards judging players by how good their peak periods were versus their peers. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
If the answer is no, how Taeja fare at his 'peak' in other tourneys is irrelevant to the GOAT discussion. A few players have beaten Djokovic and Nadal en route to winning some non-Grand Slam event at their 'peak'. No tennis fan would even consider such a player as GOAT material without coming close to winning multiple Grand Slams. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24402 Posts
On August 29 2022 00:29 RKC wrote: Did Taeja at his peak beat all his peers at the peak tourneys (GSL, IEM, Blizzcon)? If the answer is no, how Taeja fare at his 'peak' in other tourneys is irrelevant to the GOAT discussion. A few players have beaten Djokovic and Nadal en route to winning some non-Grand Slam event at their 'peak'. No tennis fan would even consider such a player as GOAT material without coming close to winning multiple Grand Slams. I wouldn’t necessarily put him above an Inno, or an Mvp or Maru, but he’s still high up. He won a lot of tournaments against strong fields, they have the tiebreaker in having that success in the prep format too. Byun took some grand slams, but in one meta and hasn’t had a ton of tournament success outside of that period. Or a Gumiho has that Code S but very little else. You could conceivably put Taeja above those two, or below and neither would be particularly outrageous. I only threw in Taeja as an aside/response, my main point is certain qualifiers are just going to exclude certain players and not for reasons of latent skill. Winning across multiple expos? Well anyone starting their pro gaming career late can never be the GOAT. Code S success? It’s a good tiebreaker for players of similar circumstances for sure, but the prep aspect is inherently collaborative and it’s just going to be harder, while not insurmountable for teamless players, but especially foreigners to tap into that. On the flip side, Code S is way less deep than it used to be, so taking that home is maybe not quite the crown it once was a other. General tournament success is another that can be wonky. Have a team that flies you to every tournament going vs one that refuses to release you as there’s an important Proleague match upcoming, well that’ll affect your tournament results quite a bit in either direction. Etc etc. Hey it’s a bit boring and non-committal but it’s difficult when we’re not comparing like with like given how much the scene has changed over the years. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
On August 27 2022 05:35 kajtarp wrote: Imagine calling someone the best basketball player while said person never played in the NBA. This is in no way downplaying Serral's achievment, just my personal opinion. GLS is pretty much the "NBA" of SC2. Exactly. Luka Doncic is already probably the best Euroleague Basketball player that anyone's ever seen and even though he's already making waves in the NBA he has a long way to go before he proves he's the greatest there. He definitely has the potential to be though, that's what makes it so exciting. Serral on the other hand, who clearly has the skill and the talent to be a great GSL player just flat out refuses to go play in Code S. It'd be like if Luka said he'd rather just play in Euroleague and leave it at that continuing to soak up the awards and the accolades. It makes no sense. You can't call him the GOAT if he doesn't go and win in the world's toughest tournament/league. That goes for any sport. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
On August 29 2022 04:05 WombaT wrote: I wouldn’t necessarily put him above an Inno, or an Mvp or Maru, but he’s still high up. He won a lot of tournaments against strong fields, they have the tiebreaker in having that success in the prep format too. Byun took some grand slams, but in one meta and hasn’t had a ton of tournament success outside of that period. Or a Gumiho has that Code S but very little else. You could conceivably put Taeja above those two, or below and neither would be particularly outrageous. I only threw in Taeja as an aside/response, my main point is certain qualifiers are just going to exclude certain players and not for reasons of latent skill. Winning across multiple expos? Well anyone starting their pro gaming career late can never be the GOAT. Code S success? It’s a good tiebreaker for players of similar circumstances for sure, but the prep aspect is inherently collaborative and it’s just going to be harder, while not insurmountable for teamless players, but especially foreigners to tap into that. On the flip side, Code S is way less deep than it used to be, so taking that home is maybe not quite the crown it once was a other. General tournament success is another that can be wonky. Have a team that flies you to every tournament going vs one that refuses to release you as there’s an important Proleague match upcoming, well that’ll affect your tournament results quite a bit in either direction. Etc etc. Hey it’s a bit boring and non-committal but it’s difficult when we’re not comparing like with like given how much the scene has changed over the years. Look, when you get into the nitty gritty rankings of players it becomes hard to tell how many minor tournament titles translate to a single Code S title. Ranking guys like Gumiho and Taeja are difficult because there's so much subjectivity and such involved. However, we can both safely say that neither of those two are the greatest of all time. That at least is easy to say. It becomes really easy when you approach the tip top of the SC2 pyramid to knock players off of the discussion for various reasons, even notable greats like Mvp get knocked off these days because he's "the King of Wings" having done nothing of note in later expansions. When you have 3 players like Rogue, Maru and Serral standing at the top, and one of them is missing a Code S title while the other two have multiples it's really easy to knock him down and just compare the two that are remaining. Maru has 4 Code S titles, cross expansion success, too many titles in minor tournaments to count. Rogue has cross expansion success, 4 Code S titles, and a Katowice and Blizzcon title that Maru lacks. He just doesn't have the sheer number of smaller titles that Maru does. Serral has a vast array of smaller titles, absolutely dominates WCS Europe (for whatever that's worth to you) and has matched Rogue's record of 1 Blizzcon and IEM Katowice title. When you have these 3 next to each other and notice how impressive all of their resumes are, it's easy to knock off the guy who is missing the tournament title for the most difficult tournament to win of any of them. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15880 Posts
On August 29 2022 17:14 Vindicare605 wrote: Look, when you get into the nitty gritty rankings of players it becomes hard to tell how many minor tournament titles translate to a single Code S title. Ranking guys like Gumiho and Taeja are difficult because there's so much subjectivity and such involved. However, we can both safely say that neither of those two are the greatest of all time. That at least is easy to say. It becomes really easy when you approach the tip top of the SC2 pyramid to knock players off of the discussion for various reasons, even notable greats like Mvp get knocked off these days because he's "the King of Wings" having done nothing of note in later expansions. When you have 3 players like Rogue, Maru and Serral standing at the top, and one of them is missing a Code S title while the other two have multiples it's really easy to knock him down and just compare the two that are remaining. Maru has 4 Code S titles, cross expansion success, too many titles in minor tournaments to count. Rogue has cross expansion success, 4 Code S titles, and a Katowice and Blizzcon title that Maru lacks. He just doesn't have the sheer number of smaller titles that Maru does. Serral has a vast array of smaller titles, absolutely dominates WCS Europe (for whatever that's worth to you) and has matched Rogue's record of 1 Blizzcon and IEM Katowice title. When you have these 3 next to each other and notice how impressive all of their resumes are, it's easy to knock off the guy who is missing the tournament title for the most difficult tournament to win of any of them. Rogue actually has won IEM Katowice 2 times | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
So I wouldn't consider one-hit wonders like Gumiho and jjakji as GOAT material. In fact, I would even rate Taeja higher than then on the Terran power rank despite not winning GSL. But ultimately, all of them fail to enter GOAT territory. | ||
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gobbledydook
Australia2599 Posts
I think a GOAT has to have the sort of status where pro players look up to them and aspire to beat them one day, and anyone would be considered unfavoured against them and a victory would be an upset. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24402 Posts
Rogue has a stocked trophy cabinet for the big prestige tournaments, but less so of the wee ones and is a little less consistent overall in that domain. Serral has the big WCs, a lot of lesser tournaments and has been very consistent for a good 3/4 year span. But doesn’t have Code S on his resume. There are gaps in everyone’s claim to some degree, but they’re all in the conversation. The scene’s been through that many structural changes in yearly format, the talent dump of Kespa’s entry and the gradual talent drain we’re seeing now etc. Code S is a tournament built around the Korean ecosystem, the teams within it fostering talent and well, being Korean helps somewhat given it requires a fair chunk of time being spent in the country. When Korea was Starcraft Mecca and all the best players resided there, we were very much comparing like with like. Serral upsets that applecart a little by getting to his level outside of that ecosystem, which itself is IMO somewhat underappreciated. I still think it would be great if Serral did give Code S a shot, and increasingly I think it needs him as much as he needs it for his legacy given the decline in depth. That said I don’t really put any of these guys above or below each other in my head ranking anyways, I certainly wouldn’t make the tournament that innately favours being Korean the straight tie-breaker | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24402 Posts
On August 29 2022 18:15 gobbledydook wrote: I don't think SC2 has had a GOAT like how Flash was in SCBW or Faker in LOL. I think a GOAT has to have the sort of status where pro players look up to them and aspire to beat them one day, and anyone would be considered unfavoured against them and a victory would be an upset. Indeed. If you have to think who the GOAT is, there generally isn’t really one. A Don Bradman in cricket, Gretzky in ice hockey or a Usain Bolt are a couple of (IMO) relatively few basically undisputed GOATs in their fields. A good test batsman has a batting average of 40, a great one hits the 50s. A literal handful have scraped low 60s. The Don averages 99.75 Flash has almost every stat or metric in his favour, sometimes convincingly so. SC2 doesn’t really have a player like that. It also didn’t have a scene that was basically all under one roof, playing the same tournaments and team competitions for years and years. Also playing the same game. You can more easily compare careers whose peaks didn’t necessarily overlap without trying to weight for the importance of weekenders vs GSL, where the other Starleague sits, several different iterations of World Championships. BW had a deep playerbase right up until Kespa shifted, SC2’s has ebbed and flowed with the Kespa switch seeing the peak and a gradual decline for quite some time thru now. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
Aside from trophies, bonjwa is known for their aura of invincibility. Not many SC2 have that aura of being absolutely unplayable, even in their prime. The closest is SC2's own Zerg-that-shalt-not-be-named, 4-GSL-streak Maru, and BO7 Rogue (another contender is Inno briefly during HoTS). Maybe it's harder to be bonjwa across different tourney formats (Flash wasn't that dominant in WCG weekender format either). | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13968 Posts
On August 29 2022 21:40 WombaT wrote: Indeed. If you have to think who the GOAT is, there generally isn’t really one. A Don Bradman in cricket, Gretzky in ice hockey or a Usain Bolt are a couple of (IMO) relatively few basically undisputed GOATs in their fields. A good test batsman has a batting average of 40, a great one hits the 50s. A literal handful have scraped low 60s. The Don averages 99.75 Flash has almost every stat or metric in his favour, sometimes convincingly so. SC2 doesn’t really have a player like that. It also didn’t have a scene that was basically all under one roof, playing the same tournaments and team competitions for years and years. Also playing the same game. You can more easily compare careers whose peaks didn’t necessarily overlap without trying to weight for the importance of weekenders vs GSL, where the other Starleague sits, several different iterations of World Championships. BW had a deep playerbase right up until Kespa shifted, SC2’s has ebbed and flowed with the Kespa switch seeing the peak and a gradual decline for quite some time thru now. Small correction. The Don averaged 99.94. Had he scored 4 runs in his final innings (hilariously he got a duck) he would have averaged 100. | ||
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1060 Posts
![[image loading]](http://misc.team-aaa.com/perso_Soeil/mvp-smile.gif) | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15880 Posts
On August 29 2022 21:57 RKC wrote: All this talk about GOAT is maybe pointless. The better term is 'bonjwa'. Which is kind of a vague and elusive term itself. But in BW, there's at least 3-4 bonjwas across different eras: Nada, iloveoov, Flash, Boxer and the Zerg-that-shalt-not-be-named (last two is rather contentious due to less trophies and shorter reign). Aside from trophies, bonjwa is known for their aura of invincibility. Not many SC2 have that aura of being absolutely unplayable, even in their prime. The closest is SC2's own Zerg-that-shalt-not-be-named, 4-GSL-streak Maru, and BO7 Rogue (another contender is Inno briefly during HoTS). Maybe it's harder to be bonjwa across different tourney formats (Flash wasn't that dominant in WCG weekender format either). A bonjwa discussion is easy. There hasn't been one. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24402 Posts
On August 30 2022 01:40 SHODAN wrote: here's your GOAT Finally a sensible post | ||
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TossHeroes
281 Posts
Reynor was jet lagged, wasn’t trying, and saving his build for the more important TSL9 tournament against GOAT Serral | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13968 Posts
On September 01 2022 23:45 TossHeroes wrote: Not too surprising result Reynor was jet lagged, wasn’t trying, and saving his build for the more important TSL9 tournament against GOAT Serral Foreigner cope continues to amuse me. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24402 Posts
On September 02 2022 00:23 Cricketer12 wrote: Foreigner cope continues to amuse me. Missing the /s tag, it’s just parroting what people say any time Maru doesn’t win a weekend tournament. | ||
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TossHeroes
281 Posts
On September 02 2022 00:45 WombaT wrote: Missing the /s tag, it’s just parroting what people say any time Maru doesn’t win a weekend tournament. Thanks Wombat for noticing it  But I guess those excuses only works for Maru or any Korean that gets embarrassed outside of Korea | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13968 Posts
On September 02 2022 00:45 WombaT wrote: Missing the /s tag, it’s just parroting what people say any time Maru doesn’t win a weekend tournament. Point to a singular time I said that about Maru. | ||
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