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pandorasheep
73 Posts
On August 26 2022 23:04 HolydaKing wrote: Without knowing statistics and purely by my own feeling, Serral has way more solid results against Koreans and chokes less against them. Still sorta disappointing by Reynor. In GSL code s? | ||
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HeroSandro
542 Posts
No need to play dumb. | ||
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JJH777
United States4420 Posts
On August 26 2022 22:22 Harris1st wrote: Reynor lost ergo Serral can't be GOAT... wait! what? Since when is Reynor the top forgein contender for GOAT anyway? IMO Reynor doesn't hold a candle to Serral who is arguably in the top 3 of all time depending on metrics and whatnot This logic makes perfect sense to me. One of the main things people use to justify calling Serral goat is his winrate vs Koreans and consistency because he definitely doesn't have the trophies for it. His winrate and consistency is inflated due to not playing in KR tournaments though. If he played in Korea for a while he'd probably have more important trophies but I bet his winrate vs Koreans would be way lower. I'm sure his fans would have decided trophies are more important than winrates if that happened. | ||
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phodacbiet
United States1740 Posts
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HeroSandro
542 Posts
On August 27 2022 02:17 JJH777 wrote: This logic makes perfect sense to me. One of the main things people use to justify calling Serral goat is his winrate vs Koreans and consistency because he definitely doesn't have the trophies for it. His winrate and consistency is inflated due to not playing in KR tournaments though. If he played in Korea for a while he'd probably have more important trophies but I bet his winrate vs Koreans would be way lower. I'm sure his fans would have decided trophies are more important than winrates if that happened. Serral has a good winrate against koreans. You think it would be lower if he played in Korea. One is a fact, one is speculation. According to your metrics only tournament that matters is GSL as Serral has won every other major tournamnent if i’m not forgetting something. You are simply downplaying every achiemnet Serral has. Edit: just be honest with the fact, that you are as biased as we all are. There is no objective way to measure who is the goat. Every metric is subjective. | ||
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JJH777
United States4420 Posts
On August 27 2022 03:47 HeroSandro wrote: Serral has a good winrate against koreans. You think it would be lower if he played in Korea. One is a fact, one is speculation. According to your metrics only tournament that matters is GSL as Serral has won every other major tournamnent if i’m not forgetting something. You are simply downplaying every achiemnet Serral has. Edit: just be honest with the fact, that you are as biased as we all are. There is no objective way to measure who is the goat. Every metric is subjective. I think trophies > all for goat determination was pretty widely accepted before Serral. Serral has an impressive trophy list but when compared to Rogue, Maru, or even Inno with no context it's pretty obvious their lists are better. I can usually get even people who think Serral's the goat to admit that much. Especially before he won IEM. Their argument always becomes centered around aligulac or records vs top Koreans after that which are things no one really cared about before Serral. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16103 Posts
On August 27 2022 04:50 JJH777 wrote: I think trophies > all for goat determination was pretty widely accepted before Serral. Serral has an impressive trophy list but when compared to Rogue, Maru, or even Inno with no context it's pretty obvious their lists are better. I can usually get even people who think Serral's the goat to admit that much. Especially before he won IEM. Their argument always becomes centered around aligulac or records vs top Koreans after that which are things no one really cared about before Serral. Yeah or they talk about his prize money won and liquipedia premier tournaments won but strangely nobody seriously considered those criteria when MC and TaeJa topped those lists. | ||
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HeroSandro
542 Posts
On August 27 2022 04:50 JJH777 wrote: I think trophies > all for goat determination was pretty widely accepted before Serral. Serral has an impressive trophy list but when compared to Rogue, Maru, or even Inno with no context it's pretty obvious their lists are better. I can usually get even people who think Serral's the goat to admit that much. Especially before he won IEM. Their argument always becomes centered around aligulac or records vs top Koreans after that which are things no one really cared about before Serral. What are the trophies Serral is missing besides gsl? If there is none, you have just created an arbitrary rule that the goat has to have won gsl. Nothing wrong with that, but it is a subjective metric. Opinions are not facts. | ||
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kajtarp
Hungary492 Posts
On August 27 2022 03:47 HeroSandro wrote: Serral has a good winrate against koreans. You think it would be lower if he played in Korea. One is a fact, one is speculation. According to your metrics only tournament that matters is GSL as Serral has won every other major tournamnent if i’m not forgetting something. You are simply downplaying every achiemnet Serral has. Edit: just be honest with the fact, that you are as biased as we all are. There is no objective way to measure who is the goat. Every metric is subjective. Imagine calling someone the best basketball player while said person never played in the NBA. This is in no way downplaying Serral's achievment, just my personal opinion. GLS is pretty much the "NBA" of SC2. | ||
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JJH777
United States4420 Posts
On August 27 2022 05:25 HeroSandro wrote: What are the trophies Serral is missing besides gsl? If there is none, you have just created an arbitrary rule that the goat has to have won gsl. Nothing wrong with that, but it is a subjective metric. Opinions are not facts. He's not missing any. He just has less trophies with top competition. Region locked WCS is always missing almost all of the top 30. And HSC is usually missing a bunch of top Koreans and is way too EU heavy plus has a low prize pool. If you look at events that have the large majority (let's say 80% of the top 20) of top pros present how many trophies does Serral have? IEM and Blizzcon are basically it. Season finals were limited to 6 Koreans and due to region locking always had 3-4 really weak players. GSL vs the World limited to 8 Koreans, had vote ins for almost half the slots and forced race representation to be almost equal regardless of .. That's pretty much everything hes won. Even if we ignore that and count season finals and GSL vs the World as equal to the highest tier events that's only 7 top tier events. Maru has 10 and Rogue has 11. | ||
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Cricketer12
United States14003 Posts
On August 27 2022 04:50 JJH777 wrote: I think trophies > all for goat determination was pretty widely accepted before Serral. Serral has an impressive trophy list but when compared to Rogue, Maru, or even Inno with no context it's pretty obvious their lists are better. I can usually get even people who think Serral's the goat to admit that much. Especially before he won IEM. Their argument always becomes centered around aligulac or records vs top Koreans after that which are things no one really cared about before Serral. It wasn't or else Taeja would be the GOAT | ||
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royalroadweed
United States8301 Posts
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On August 27 2022 09:19 royalroadweed wrote: The format matters. Could serral consistently dominate in longer format tournaments with high level opponents preparing specifically for him on specific maps like he does in shorter form tournaments? We've seen past players be better in one format over the other. For all we know he could be like taeja where had can consistently dominate elite GSL caliber players in weekenders but is underwhelming in GSL format. We won't know until he tries. that's a good point | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On August 27 2022 02:17 JJH777 wrote: This logic makes perfect sense to me. One of the main things people use to justify calling Serral goat is his winrate vs Koreans and consistency because he definitely doesn't have the trophies for it. His winrate and consistency is inflated due to not playing in KR tournaments though. If he played in Korea for a while he'd probably have more important trophies but I bet his winrate vs Koreans would be way lower. I'm sure his fans would have decided trophies are more important than winrates if that happened. It would probably be higher. Serral’s v Korean winrate is mostly based off playing the top dogs in international tournaments. He largely doesn’t play the low/mid tier Code S players so if anything he’d just bump up his winrate. The GOAT discussion is generally tiresome, there’s a fair few good candidates for that top tier. His stats are good, he’s won a lot. When he doesn’t win he’s placed high in almost any tournament for 3/4 years. Multiple Korean pro-gamers have eulogised about his level as player. If his Korean peers think he’s an exceptional talent that’s good enough for me. Whether he’s THE best or not, he’s certainly up there, with a bunch of other quality players. There’s pluses or minuses to most claims. Maru’s never won a world championship, and he’s been a full time SC2 pro for a decade. Rogue’s won a lot but he’s been streaky and hasn’t had extended periods of proper dominance. Inno was profoundly mediocre for 2/3 years etc etc | ||
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JJH777
United States4420 Posts
On August 27 2022 10:58 WombaT wrote: It would probably be higher. Serral’s v Korean winrate is mostly based off playing the top dogs in international tournaments. He largely doesn’t play the low/mid tier Code S players so if anything he’d just bump up his winrate. The GOAT discussion is generally tiresome, there’s a fair few good candidates for that top tier. His stats are good, he’s won a lot. When he doesn’t win he’s placed high in almost any tournament for 3/4 years. Multiple Korean pro-gamers have eulogised about his level as player. If his Korean peers think he’s an exceptional talent that’s good enough for me. Whether he’s THE best or not, he’s certainly up there, with a bunch of other quality players. There’s pluses or minuses to most claims. Maru’s never won a world championship, and he’s been a full time SC2 pro for a decade. Rogue’s won a lot but he’s been streaky and hasn’t had extended periods of proper dominance. Inno was profoundly mediocre for 2/3 years etc etc HSC is his most dominant tournament and that's basically always filled with the GSL players who had a bad season. He plays the low/mid tier Code S players all the time in that and in online events. Koreans perform better in GSL than other tournaments. Most blame that on prep. I personally think it comes down more to comfort and playing closer to their peak. I think there's almost no doubt someone like Maru would do better vs Serral in GSL events than he does in other stuff. I think that's true of almost any P/T. The main reason I think his winrate would be lower is just because he'd be forced to play them all the time. I feel like Serral has had several short slumps and he's almost never had to play Koreans during them. Right now his winrate is based on a very small number of series and focused during times where he made sure to be in peak condition. As for everything else I don't disagree with most of that. As of his IEM victory he's probably top 5ish all time. Before that he was fringe top 10 though and there were already people calling him goat. Even after IEM I don't think he's a serious contender for #1 though due primarily to the trophy breakdown I listed in the other post. | ||
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angry_maia
333 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2467 Posts
On August 27 2022 14:31 angry_maia wrote: Outside of goat stuff, is there anyone that doesn't think Serral is the current most skilled player in the world? I.e. are there any current players that people would actually bet on in a bo7 against Serral? Rogue obviously, but he never plays again. Lucky for Serral, they will never met in final again and the last meet up is TSL8. I guess majority of the spectators will bet on Serral more due to the overwhelming fandoms he enjoy and the unnecessary criticism on Rogue's gameplay before the match even starts. Another person is Maru. Maru beat Serral in KOB. Since 2019 (?), Maru always crumble against Serral in quarterfinal/semifinal but strive against him in the final. Before that, Serral doesn't even stand a chance. | ||
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HeroSandro
542 Posts
On August 27 2022 14:43 swarminfestor wrote: Rogue obviously, but he never plays again. Lucky for Serral, they will never met in final again and the last meet up is TSL8. I guess majority of the spectators will bet on Serral more due to the overwhelming fandoms he enjoy and the unnecessary criticism on Rogue's gameplay before the match even starts. Another person is Maru. Maru beat Serral in KOB. Since 2019 (?), Maru always crumble against Serral in quarterfinal/semifinal but strive against him in the final. Before that, Serral doesn't even stand a chance. According to Liquipedia Serral has 7-3 series lead against Maru since 2018. Seached Serral vs Maru in LOTV. | ||
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2467 Posts
On August 27 2022 14:58 HeroSandro wrote: According to Liquipedia Serral has 7-3 series lead against Maru since 2018. Seached Serral vs Maru in LOTV. We talked about BO7, not BO5 or anything. I have already mentioned above that Maru always crumbled against Serral or anyone before he reached to meet Serral in the final. Before 2019 (?), Serral didn't stand any chance against him in any of BO5 or BO7 series. That's why whoever faces Serral in the final BO7, these two have 50-50 or higher chances to beat him. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16103 Posts
On August 27 2022 14:58 HeroSandro wrote: According to Liquipedia Serral has 7-3 series lead against Maru since 2018. Seached Serral vs Maru in LOTV. If I remember right 1 series was a bo3 on EU server and another happened at the time when Maru had such severe wrist/shoulder pain that he dropped out of another tournament, so it looks more one-sided than it really is | ||
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