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Honestly Reynor just doesn't dominate top Koreans as much as Serral. He has around a 59% winrate (51% offline) against them counting ever since he became a top level player (roughly start of 2019 but even if one disagrees and starts at beginning of 2020, numbers change by a percent at most). Granted he usually plays top Koreans so 59% is a bit deceptive but I've always felt like against people like Maru, Dark and Trap, he is pretty evenly matched. However, I would slightly favour Serral and Rogue if they played against the same players in an important series.
I feel like because he often has very good series against Serral, similar to Clem, Serral gets a bit underrated by some people. But Serral in terms of winrate does noticeably better against top Korean players compared to Clem and Reynor with 68% Korean winrate (70% offline amazingly) since start of 2018. And note that Serral usually plays top Koreans too.
Still, I applaud Reynor for taking the risk to play GSL and I still think he was a favourite to win it even though he got knocked out early. My point earlier is that people suggesting Serral doesn't want to compete in GSL because he's scared of losing I think is unrealistic.
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On August 26 2022 01:51 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2022 01:27 RKC wrote:
Korea is an 'island country' - how in Aiur does that even matter?
Do Serral and Reynor travel by bus or train to Katowice and all live EU tourneys? Top foreigner pros afraid of flying? The distance and time zone difference isn't as bad as NA. Yet, Special and Neeb have no qualms travelling.
And what's wrong with staying over a month for the competition? Is the World Cup less prestigious than the Champions League because the poor players have to camp and rough out in some desolate non-first world country (or 'island country' like South Korea and Japan) for a month to win the World Cup rather than playing under the lights of Paris or Wembley? It's just massive amounts of copium from the fans that are DESPERATE to say that foreigners are the best SC2 players now despite all evidence to the contrary. The biggest indicator of how untrue that is that no foreigner has ever won a GSL Code S, in fact the closest thing we've seen was Jinro back in 2010. In 12 years no one has gotten closer than he has. So rather than encourage more foreign fans from competing in GSL these are fans that would rather try and diminish the GSL's importance and they come up with all sorts of ridiculous justifications such as "omg you we gotta travel to KOREA!!!?" even though Koreans have to travel to international tournaments to compete but they're Korean so they should be expected to come to us. It's a double standard that has existed in SC2 since as far back as the MLG days. So now that the consensus top 2 player in the non-Korean world just went and bombed out in the first round of Code S all of the excuses and justifications for him losing are going to come out because it's easier for these guys to bash the GSL than to admit that Korea is still the most competitive region or that the star player had a poor showing.
I’m not desperate, I think Maru is the GOAT followed closely by Serral and Rogue. Like .5% differences. The top 10 current* players are probably 7/10 Koreans. You don’t need to inflict hyperbole to the discussion. Enjoy the gloat, and glee while you can I guess. Koreans joining and winning foreign tourneys is a good thing, same as foreigners coming to Korea, even if it’s GSL vs the World or GSL proper.
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Mexico2170 Posts
I'm happy. Im SO HAPPY that Reynor lost. Not only did he lose he was humilliated being the first player to be eliminated in his group.
HOPEFULLY this will once and for all eliminate those disscussions about him and serral being the GOATs.
You simply cannot be the GOAT if you havent won a GSL. GSL is the longest running tournament of all. The most prestigious and the most difficult.
Raynor is a great player, but he was arrogant and paid for it. IF there is a GSL next year, maybe he can try again and will surely prepare better.
In the mean time, it is just clear how much difficult GSL is.
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On August 26 2022 03:14 [Phantom] wrote:
I'm happy. Im SO HAPPY that Reynor lost. Not only did he lose he was humilliated being the first player to be eliminated in his group.
HOPEFULLY this will once and for all eliminate those disscussions about him and serral being the GOATs.
You simply cannot be the GOAT if you havent won a GSL. GSL is the longest running tournament of all. The most prestigious and the most difficult.
Raynor is a great player, but he was arrogant and paid for it. IF there is a GSL next year, maybe he can try again and will surely prepare better.
In the mean time, it is just clear how much difficult GSL is.
delusional
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On August 26 2022 03:18 BelethielQT wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2022 03:14 [Phantom] wrote:
I'm happy. Im SO HAPPY that Reynor lost. Not only did he lose he was humilliated being the first player to be eliminated in his group.
HOPEFULLY this will once and for all eliminate those disscussions about him and serral being the GOATs.
You simply cannot be the GOAT if you havent won a GSL. GSL is the longest running tournament of all. The most prestigious and the most difficult.
Raynor is a great player, but he was arrogant and paid for it. IF there is a GSL next year, maybe he can try again and will surely prepare better.
In the mean time, it is just clear how much difficult GSL is. delusional
Phenomenal first post, welcome to the forum
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goat debate way too polarised.
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On August 26 2022 03:29 darklycid wrote:
goat debate way too polarised.
you made that sound like a tabloid headline but I agree
can't we all just get along and accept GSL is hard. like, really hard.
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The goat debate to me proves that there isn't a goat, if there was we wouldn't incessantly argue about it.
I'm conflicted on Reynors loss, I like him a lot and the tournament would definitely be more interesting if he got further, but it also makes me sad thinking of Koreans who lose their spots and money to foreign players who benefit from region lock. It does emphasise just how high level the GSL is though, it's a real deep tournament.
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On August 26 2022 02:01 RogerChillingworth wrote:
It's just 1 day of games holy shit it doesn't mean that Reynor sucks or that Korea is super dominant still. It's SC2. It's a super volatile game. Peanut gallery chads popping off in forum chats while their hearthstone turn timer burns down.
I don't see Reynor sticking around in KR but I hope he does and comes back stronger next time.
It does prove that everyone can lose in the first round of GSL. Which is why it's such a hard tournament and why winning it is so prestigious.
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France12921 Posts
On August 26 2022 02:16 Khabra wrote:
This result by Reynor puts a massive doubt on 'goat discussion', in my opinion, as he was quite successful in rivalry with Serral on foreign scene. Looks like Koreans try much harder in gsl than other tournaments. Korea still the powerhouse!
Serral is not really in serious GOAT discussion considering even Rogue has an asterisk despite having the best resume, because he only started dominating after kespa was gone. Maru has had success before but lacks WC, while INno lacks WC as well
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On August 26 2022 04:41 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2022 02:16 Khabra wrote:
This result by Reynor puts a massive doubt on 'goat discussion', in my opinion, as he was quite successful in rivalry with Serral on foreign scene. Looks like Koreans try much harder in gsl than other tournaments. Korea still the powerhouse! Serral is not really in serious GOAT discussion considering even Rogue has an asterisk despite having the best resume, because he only started dominating after kespa was gone. Maru has had success before but lacks WC, while INno lacks WC as well
and u are the one who decide who is goat and who is not?
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On August 26 2022 05:09 BelethielQT wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2022 04:41 Poopi wrote:On August 26 2022 02:16 Khabra wrote:
This result by Reynor puts a massive doubt on 'goat discussion', in my opinion, as he was quite successful in rivalry with Serral on foreign scene. Looks like Koreans try much harder in gsl than other tournaments. Korea still the powerhouse! Serral is not really in serious GOAT discussion considering even Rogue has an asterisk despite having the best resume, because he only started dominating after kespa was gone. Maru has had success before but lacks WC, while INno lacks WC as well and u are the one who decide who is goat and who is not?
i mean can u be the goat if u dont even play code s, the hardest tournament? seems like a bit of a meme.
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On August 26 2022 05:22 CicadaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2022 05:09 BelethielQT wrote:On August 26 2022 04:41 Poopi wrote:On August 26 2022 02:16 Khabra wrote:
This result by Reynor puts a massive doubt on 'goat discussion', in my opinion, as he was quite successful in rivalry with Serral on foreign scene. Looks like Koreans try much harder in gsl than other tournaments. Korea still the powerhouse! Serral is not really in serious GOAT discussion considering even Rogue has an asterisk despite having the best resume, because he only started dominating after kespa was gone. Maru has had success before but lacks WC, while INno lacks WC as well and u are the one who decide who is goat and who is not? i mean can u be the goat if u dont even play code s, the hardest tournament? seems like a bit of a meme.
since when is code s the hardest tournament?
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On August 26 2022 05:24 BelethielQT wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2022 05:22 CicadaSC wrote:On August 26 2022 05:09 BelethielQT wrote:On August 26 2022 04:41 Poopi wrote:On August 26 2022 02:16 Khabra wrote:
This result by Reynor puts a massive doubt on 'goat discussion', in my opinion, as he was quite successful in rivalry with Serral on foreign scene. Looks like Koreans try much harder in gsl than other tournaments. Korea still the powerhouse! Serral is not really in serious GOAT discussion considering even Rogue has an asterisk despite having the best resume, because he only started dominating after kespa was gone. Maru has had success before but lacks WC, while INno lacks WC as well and u are the one who decide who is goat and who is not? i mean can u be the goat if u dont even play code s, the hardest tournament? seems like a bit of a meme. since when is code s the hardest tournament?
since 2010
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On August 26 2022 05:25 CicadaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2022 05:24 BelethielQT wrote:On August 26 2022 05:22 CicadaSC wrote:On August 26 2022 05:09 BelethielQT wrote:On August 26 2022 04:41 Poopi wrote:On August 26 2022 02:16 Khabra wrote:
This result by Reynor puts a massive doubt on 'goat discussion', in my opinion, as he was quite successful in rivalry with Serral on foreign scene. Looks like Koreans try much harder in gsl than other tournaments. Korea still the powerhouse! Serral is not really in serious GOAT discussion considering even Rogue has an asterisk despite having the best resume, because he only started dominating after kespa was gone. Maru has had success before but lacks WC, while INno lacks WC as well and u are the one who decide who is goat and who is not? i mean can u be the goat if u dont even play code s, the hardest tournament? seems like a bit of a meme. since when is code s the hardest tournament? since 2010
its ok to be wrong
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On August 26 2022 05:25 CicadaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2022 05:24 BelethielQT wrote:On August 26 2022 05:22 CicadaSC wrote:On August 26 2022 05:09 BelethielQT wrote:On August 26 2022 04:41 Poopi wrote:On August 26 2022 02:16 Khabra wrote:
This result by Reynor puts a massive doubt on 'goat discussion', in my opinion, as he was quite successful in rivalry with Serral on foreign scene. Looks like Koreans try much harder in gsl than other tournaments. Korea still the powerhouse! Serral is not really in serious GOAT discussion considering even Rogue has an asterisk despite having the best resume, because he only started dominating after kespa was gone. Maru has had success before but lacks WC, while INno lacks WC as well and u are the one who decide who is goat and who is not? i mean can u be the goat if u dont even play code s, the hardest tournament? seems like a bit of a meme. since when is code s the hardest tournament? since 2010
Impossible. GSL isn't a weekend long tournament held in Sweden. Tier 3 Minor at best.
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On August 26 2022 05:26 BelethielQT wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2022 05:25 CicadaSC wrote:On August 26 2022 05:24 BelethielQT wrote:On August 26 2022 05:22 CicadaSC wrote:On August 26 2022 05:09 BelethielQT wrote:On August 26 2022 04:41 Poopi wrote:On August 26 2022 02:16 Khabra wrote:
This result by Reynor puts a massive doubt on 'goat discussion', in my opinion, as he was quite successful in rivalry with Serral on foreign scene. Looks like Koreans try much harder in gsl than other tournaments. Korea still the powerhouse! Serral is not really in serious GOAT discussion considering even Rogue has an asterisk despite having the best resume, because he only started dominating after kespa was gone. Maru has had success before but lacks WC, while INno lacks WC as well and u are the one who decide who is goat and who is not? i mean can u be the goat if u dont even play code s, the hardest tournament? seems like a bit of a meme. since when is code s the hardest tournament? since 2010 its ok to be wrong
Glad you can accept yourself for your faults
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On August 26 2022 05:28 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2022 05:26 BelethielQT wrote:On August 26 2022 05:25 CicadaSC wrote:On August 26 2022 05:24 BelethielQT wrote:On August 26 2022 05:22 CicadaSC wrote:On August 26 2022 05:09 BelethielQT wrote:On August 26 2022 04:41 Poopi wrote:On August 26 2022 02:16 Khabra wrote:
This result by Reynor puts a massive doubt on 'goat discussion', in my opinion, as he was quite successful in rivalry with Serral on foreign scene. Looks like Koreans try much harder in gsl than other tournaments. Korea still the powerhouse! Serral is not really in serious GOAT discussion considering even Rogue has an asterisk despite having the best resume, because he only started dominating after kespa was gone. Maru has had success before but lacks WC, while INno lacks WC as well and u are the one who decide who is goat and who is not? i mean can u be the goat if u dont even play code s, the hardest tournament? seems like a bit of a meme. since when is code s the hardest tournament? since 2010 its ok to be wrong Glad you can accept yourself for your faults
i see u cant accept the reality
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On August 26 2022 04:41 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2022 02:16 Khabra wrote:
This result by Reynor puts a massive doubt on 'goat discussion', in my opinion, as he was quite successful in rivalry with Serral on foreign scene. Looks like Koreans try much harder in gsl than other tournaments. Korea still the powerhouse! Serral is not really in serious GOAT discussion considering even Rogue has an asterisk despite having the best resume, because he only started dominating after kespa was gone. Maru has had success before but lacks WC, while INno lacks WC as well
In fact I agree with all what you wrote. However at least whilst reading this forum i came across multiple opinions stating sth completely different especially about Serral being goat. I was referring more to these.
I don't wish bad to anyone. I just wanted to express my absolute personal subjective feeling, in context of today's results, Serral now needs to at least try appearing in gsl to emphasis / confirm that he's equal or even superior (as some claim), in comparison to top Koreans. I also wanted to undermine statement that because of quite recent successes in non-gsl events, He should be considered such.
Reynor finishing last in first group stage is a huge suprise to me and i think it a tells the story about priorities for Korean players as the Zerg is one of a very very top performers on foreign scene. I disagree one can say he didn't care today or tried 'not as hard' - I think he had something to prove... Maybe it is too much said basing on a single result, anyway I find it remarkable.
I don't even find anyone clear goat, however such discussion controversy exists. I think it's a good thing we have a few 'olimp' players, we can admire, be excited about rivalry between.
btw the more kudos to players like Scarlett, Neeb, Special who had some successes there.
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On August 26 2022 05:29 BelethielQT wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2022 05:28 Cricketer12 wrote:On August 26 2022 05:26 BelethielQT wrote:On August 26 2022 05:25 CicadaSC wrote:On August 26 2022 05:24 BelethielQT wrote:On August 26 2022 05:22 CicadaSC wrote:On August 26 2022 05:09 BelethielQT wrote:On August 26 2022 04:41 Poopi wrote:On August 26 2022 02:16 Khabra wrote:
This result by Reynor puts a massive doubt on 'goat discussion', in my opinion, as he was quite successful in rivalry with Serral on foreign scene. Looks like Koreans try much harder in gsl than other tournaments. Korea still the powerhouse! Serral is not really in serious GOAT discussion considering even Rogue has an asterisk despite having the best resume, because he only started dominating after kespa was gone. Maru has had success before but lacks WC, while INno lacks WC as well and u are the one who decide who is goat and who is not? i mean can u be the goat if u dont even play code s, the hardest tournament? seems like a bit of a meme. since when is code s the hardest tournament? since 2010 its ok to be wrong Glad you can accept yourself for your faults i see u cant accept the reality
Name 1 tournament harder than GSL
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EPT
