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On April 21 2022 19:41 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2022 19:20 Durnuu wrote:On April 21 2022 19:19 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 21 2022 19:16 darklycid wrote:
Yeah classic problem, the vZ is problematic for some reason and then tvp swung more towards toss this time which leads to terran underperforming this time (recently tvp swung more often towards terran which led to the tournaments last year with worse toss performance). What kills me though, is that we had 2018-2019 and then Zerg got nerfed like 10x since then and they're STILL winning everything. The thing is, the nerfs weren't that huge. That isn't true though. We've had the Infestor completely reworked. Queens nerfed like 5-6 times, creep nerfed like 3-4x Broodlords nerfed severely. Just about the only things that WEREN'T touched were the Hydralisk, Lurker, Baneling, Ravager and curiously the Viper. The Viper hasn't been touched in years interestingly even though it still remains a stupidly powerful unit. Zerg has had some pretty severe nerfs over the last 4 years and yet still they dominate consistently.
I think we just disagree on the definition of "severity" of these nerfs. They weren't that huge compared to the massive zerg dominance we had, in my opinion.
Only one that was truly significant was the infestor rework, but it only allowed the other broken zerg units to shine instead 
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This stasis ward defense is much like Creator's old widow mine defense, finally we see glimpses of the old Creator
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Looks like Maru lives to see another day.
Also, if I'm not mistaken, we could have a 3-way tie between herO, Maru and Dark if all the matches go 2-1 (with herO and Dark losing each one)
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I am seriously going to laugh my ass off if it's Creator of all people that breaks Protoss' Code S drought.
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On April 21 2022 19:51 Vindicare605 wrote:
I am seriously going to laugh my ass off if it's Creator of all people that breaks Protoss' Code S drought.
Winning in an era of Zerg imbalance, 2012 vibes
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
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On April 21 2022 19:51 Durnuu wrote:
Looks like Maru lives to see another day.
Also, if I'm not mistaken, we could have a 3-way tie between herO, Maru and Dark if all the matches go 2-1 (with herO and Dark losing each one)
Dark isn't losing stop being silly. Maru is out.
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On April 21 2022 19:33 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2022 19:19 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 21 2022 19:16 darklycid wrote:
Yeah classic problem, the vZ is problematic for some reason and then tvp swung more towards toss this time which leads to terran underperforming this time (recently tvp swung more often towards terran which led to the tournaments last year with worse toss performance). What kills me though, is that we had 2018-2019 and then Zerg got nerfed like 10x since then and they're STILL winning everything. So let me just ask the general audience. Why would ANYONE consider a title won during those 2 years legitimate if we know NOW that Zerg has received nothing but nerf after nerf from those power levels and are still dominating? We shouldn't right? Not enough people are calling out just how fucking broken Zerg obviously was in 2018 and 2019. I wonder why? It's probably because there were some players there that took advantage of those periods that people don't want to put asterisks next to. You forget that there have been times in which Zerg could barely go past minute 8 because of Prisms or that TvZ looked nearly impossibile for Zerg in the lategame at least twice(broken Raven first then the rain of nukes)? I'd suggest to keep this overdramatic tone for your next piace, it would be more appropriate in a theater. As Charoisaur is saying, these maps favor Zerg.
Rain of nukes, what? In which world has this ever been an issue, or are you just referencing the series where Inno broke Serrals winstreak and think it must've been because of balance?
Because I don't remember a period where Terran was dominating TvZ lategame on the back of mass nukes at all.
Also the prism thing happened only in 1 Super Tournament and probably would've been figured out quickly if Blizzard didn't immediately nerf it for them.
I agree with you that Zerg was still fine in 2018 but what you just wrote is just incredibly false
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Hoping Creator would win this season.
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Meanwhile this fucking group has completely shattered my Liquibets. I will never recover from this financially.
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On April 21 2022 19:41 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2022 19:20 Durnuu wrote:On April 21 2022 19:19 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 21 2022 19:16 darklycid wrote:
Yeah classic problem, the vZ is problematic for some reason and then tvp swung more towards toss this time which leads to terran underperforming this time (recently tvp swung more often towards terran which led to the tournaments last year with worse toss performance). What kills me though, is that we had 2018-2019 and then Zerg got nerfed like 10x since then and they're STILL winning everything. The thing is, the nerfs weren't that huge. That isn't true though. We've had the Infestor completely reworked. Queens nerfed like 5-6 times, creep nerfed like 3-4x Broodlords nerfed severely. Just about the only things that WEREN'T touched were the Hydralisk, Lurker, Baneling, Ravager and curiously the Viper. The Viper hasn't been touched in years interestingly even though it still remains a stupidly powerful unit. Zerg has had some pretty severe nerfs over the last 4 years and yet still they dominate consistently.
The Infestor rework was coupled with a huge Lurker buff though. I don't think Creep was nerfed except that they can't be cancelled anymore?
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On April 21 2022 19:56 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2022 19:41 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 21 2022 19:20 Durnuu wrote:On April 21 2022 19:19 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 21 2022 19:16 darklycid wrote:
Yeah classic problem, the vZ is problematic for some reason and then tvp swung more towards toss this time which leads to terran underperforming this time (recently tvp swung more often towards terran which led to the tournaments last year with worse toss performance). What kills me though, is that we had 2018-2019 and then Zerg got nerfed like 10x since then and they're STILL winning everything. The thing is, the nerfs weren't that huge. That isn't true though. We've had the Infestor completely reworked. Queens nerfed like 5-6 times, creep nerfed like 3-4x Broodlords nerfed severely. Just about the only things that WEREN'T touched were the Hydralisk, Lurker, Baneling, Ravager and curiously the Viper. The Viper hasn't been touched in years interestingly even though it still remains a stupidly powerful unit. Zerg has had some pretty severe nerfs over the last 4 years and yet still they dominate consistently. The Infestor rework was coupled with a huge Lurker buff though. I don't think Creep was nerfed except that they can't be cancelled anymore?
Doesnt it receed faster now?
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On April 21 2022 19:56 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2022 19:41 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 21 2022 19:20 Durnuu wrote:On April 21 2022 19:19 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 21 2022 19:16 darklycid wrote:
Yeah classic problem, the vZ is problematic for some reason and then tvp swung more towards toss this time which leads to terran underperforming this time (recently tvp swung more often towards terran which led to the tournaments last year with worse toss performance). What kills me though, is that we had 2018-2019 and then Zerg got nerfed like 10x since then and they're STILL winning everything. The thing is, the nerfs weren't that huge. That isn't true though. We've had the Infestor completely reworked. Queens nerfed like 5-6 times, creep nerfed like 3-4x Broodlords nerfed severely. Just about the only things that WEREN'T touched were the Hydralisk, Lurker, Baneling, Ravager and curiously the Viper. The Viper hasn't been touched in years interestingly even though it still remains a stupidly powerful unit. Zerg has had some pretty severe nerfs over the last 4 years and yet still they dominate consistently. The Infestor rework was coupled with a huge Lurker buff though. I don't think Creep was nerfed except that they can't be cancelled anymore?
It's spread rate has been nerfed at least 2 times since 2018.
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On April 21 2022 19:57 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2022 19:56 Charoisaur wrote:On April 21 2022 19:41 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 21 2022 19:20 Durnuu wrote:On April 21 2022 19:19 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 21 2022 19:16 darklycid wrote:
Yeah classic problem, the vZ is problematic for some reason and then tvp swung more towards toss this time which leads to terran underperforming this time (recently tvp swung more often towards terran which led to the tournaments last year with worse toss performance). What kills me though, is that we had 2018-2019 and then Zerg got nerfed like 10x since then and they're STILL winning everything. The thing is, the nerfs weren't that huge. That isn't true though. We've had the Infestor completely reworked. Queens nerfed like 5-6 times, creep nerfed like 3-4x Broodlords nerfed severely. Just about the only things that WEREN'T touched were the Hydralisk, Lurker, Baneling, Ravager and curiously the Viper. The Viper hasn't been touched in years interestingly even though it still remains a stupidly powerful unit. Zerg has had some pretty severe nerfs over the last 4 years and yet still they dominate consistently. The Infestor rework was coupled with a huge Lurker buff though. I don't think Creep was nerfed except that they can't be cancelled anymore? Doesnt it receed faster now?
Didn't they do that change already with LotV release or have they nerfed it again?
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That was a sick fight by Creator.
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On April 21 2022 19:52 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2022 19:33 Xain0n wrote:On April 21 2022 19:19 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 21 2022 19:16 darklycid wrote:
Yeah classic problem, the vZ is problematic for some reason and then tvp swung more towards toss this time which leads to terran underperforming this time (recently tvp swung more often towards terran which led to the tournaments last year with worse toss performance). What kills me though, is that we had 2018-2019 and then Zerg got nerfed like 10x since then and they're STILL winning everything. So let me just ask the general audience. Why would ANYONE consider a title won during those 2 years legitimate if we know NOW that Zerg has received nothing but nerf after nerf from those power levels and are still dominating? We shouldn't right? Not enough people are calling out just how fucking broken Zerg obviously was in 2018 and 2019. I wonder why? It's probably because there were some players there that took advantage of those periods that people don't want to put asterisks next to. You forget that there have been times in which Zerg could barely go past minute 8 because of Prisms or that TvZ looked nearly impossibile for Zerg in the lategame at least twice(broken Raven first then the rain of nukes)? I'd suggest to keep this overdramatic tone for your next piace, it would be more appropriate in a theater. As Charoisaur is saying, these maps favor Zerg. Rain of nukes, what? In which world has this ever been an issue, or are you just referencing the series where Inno broke Serrals winstreak and think it must've been because of balance? Because I don't remember a period where Terran was dominating TvZ lategame on the back of mass nukes at all. Also the prism thing happened only in 1 Super Tournament and probably would've been figured out quickly if Blizzard didn't immediately nerf it for them. I agree with you that Zerg was still fine in 2018 but what you just wrote is just incredibly false
Prism needed a nerf, while Zerg was evidently too strong in lategame PvZ; they didn't give Protoss anything in return and we had BL Infestor 2.0.
You also don't remember Inno and Maru saying before WESG that TvZ was Terran favored in the lategame?
It happened at the start of 2019.
Incredibly false? More like these problems didn't last long whereas they took ages to fix the issues favoring Zerg(from 2019 onwards) and, even worse, they messed it up again when balance looked fine in 2020.
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Canada8989 Posts
On April 21 2022 19:51 Vindicare605 wrote:
I am seriously going to laugh my ass off if it's Creator of all people that breaks Protoss' Code S drought.
He's the prince that was promise
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On April 21 2022 20:01 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2022 19:52 Charoisaur wrote:On April 21 2022 19:33 Xain0n wrote:On April 21 2022 19:19 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 21 2022 19:16 darklycid wrote:
Yeah classic problem, the vZ is problematic for some reason and then tvp swung more towards toss this time which leads to terran underperforming this time (recently tvp swung more often towards terran which led to the tournaments last year with worse toss performance). What kills me though, is that we had 2018-2019 and then Zerg got nerfed like 10x since then and they're STILL winning everything. So let me just ask the general audience. Why would ANYONE consider a title won during those 2 years legitimate if we know NOW that Zerg has received nothing but nerf after nerf from those power levels and are still dominating? We shouldn't right? Not enough people are calling out just how fucking broken Zerg obviously was in 2018 and 2019. I wonder why? It's probably because there were some players there that took advantage of those periods that people don't want to put asterisks next to. You forget that there have been times in which Zerg could barely go past minute 8 because of Prisms or that TvZ looked nearly impossibile for Zerg in the lategame at least twice(broken Raven first then the rain of nukes)? I'd suggest to keep this overdramatic tone for your next piace, it would be more appropriate in a theater. As Charoisaur is saying, these maps favor Zerg. Rain of nukes, what? In which world has this ever been an issue, or are you just referencing the series where Inno broke Serrals winstreak and think it must've been because of balance? Because I don't remember a period where Terran was dominating TvZ lategame on the back of mass nukes at all. Also the prism thing happened only in 1 Super Tournament and probably would've been figured out quickly if Blizzard didn't immediately nerf it for them. I agree with you that Zerg was still fine in 2018 but what you just wrote is just incredibly false Prism needed a nerf, while Zerg was evidently too strong in lategame PvZ; they didn't give Protoss anything in return and we had BL Infestor 2.0. You also don't remember Inno and Maru saying before WESG that TvZ was Terran favored in the lategame? It happened at the start of 2019. Incredibly false? More like these problems didn't last long whereas they took ages to fix the issues favoring Zerg(from 2019 onwards) and, even worse, they messed it up again when balance looked fine in 2020.
Players saying something is imbalanced has no meaning if we don't see the 'imbalance' in tournaments at all.
It could just be a tactic to intimidate the opponents for all we know.
Also, just pretending you are correct, it was clearly a L2P issue and not a balance issue, seeing as nukes have never been nerfed
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Excellent hold by Dark, should be smooth sailing from there
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EPT
