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On April 22 2022 22:38 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2022 19:35 Charoisaur wrote:On April 22 2022 07:49 Xain0n wrote:On April 22 2022 00:49 JJH777 wrote:On April 21 2022 19:33 Xain0n wrote:On April 21 2022 19:19 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 21 2022 19:16 darklycid wrote:
Yeah classic problem, the vZ is problematic for some reason and then tvp swung more towards toss this time which leads to terran underperforming this time (recently tvp swung more often towards terran which led to the tournaments last year with worse toss performance). What kills me though, is that we had 2018-2019 and then Zerg got nerfed like 10x since then and they're STILL winning everything. So let me just ask the general audience. Why would ANYONE consider a title won during those 2 years legitimate if we know NOW that Zerg has received nothing but nerf after nerf from those power levels and are still dominating? We shouldn't right? Not enough people are calling out just how fucking broken Zerg obviously was in 2018 and 2019. I wonder why? It's probably because there were some players there that took advantage of those periods that people don't want to put asterisks next to. You forget that there have been times in which Zerg could barely go past minute 8 because of Prisms or that TvZ looked nearly impossibile for Zerg in the lategame at least twice(broken Raven first then the rain of nukes)? I'd suggest to keep this overdramatic tone for your next piace, it would be more appropriate in a theater. As Charoisaur is saying, these maps favor Zerg. Correction: Serral couldn't beat "broken" ravens. Dark and Rogue both beat Maru on the patch with "OP" ravens. Terran also did shit all around on that patch. Nukes were never broken and have never been nerfed. Ravens were too strong and were nerfed, how strong Serral was at the time is irrelevant. Nukes weren't broken and I haven't said they were, still Zerg couldn't find a reliable answer for that lategame scenario for at least one month. Both was meant to answer to Vindicare's preposterous idea for which Zerg must have been immensely op years ago since they were nerfed multiple times, forgetting not only that the other races were nerfed as well but that problematic matchups and metas existed because of maps or (temporary) inability to find solutions to certain strategies. Even in this so called 'OP nuke era' I remember at least 2 lategames where Zerg beat it (Scarlett - Maru and Inno - Serral at WESG) and not many more where Terran won in that scenario. So no, Terran dominating TvZ lategame with nukes was never a thing It wouldn't be the first time that you don't remember something, to be honest. Why is this so important, in any of case? There was a period in which Zerg struggled against nukes, it didn't last much and it wasn't a matter of balance.
Well, if you say untrue things, you will get called out.
You said there was a period where lategame ZvT 'looked nearly impossible because of nukes' which is simply false as the winrate of terran in that scenario wasn't even that high.
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Italy3963 Posts
On April 23 2022 01:34 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2022 22:38 Xain0n wrote:On April 22 2022 19:35 Charoisaur wrote:On April 22 2022 07:49 Xain0n wrote:On April 22 2022 00:49 JJH777 wrote:On April 21 2022 19:33 Xain0n wrote:On April 21 2022 19:19 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 21 2022 19:16 darklycid wrote:
Yeah classic problem, the vZ is problematic for some reason and then tvp swung more towards toss this time which leads to terran underperforming this time (recently tvp swung more often towards terran which led to the tournaments last year with worse toss performance). What kills me though, is that we had 2018-2019 and then Zerg got nerfed like 10x since then and they're STILL winning everything. So let me just ask the general audience. Why would ANYONE consider a title won during those 2 years legitimate if we know NOW that Zerg has received nothing but nerf after nerf from those power levels and are still dominating? We shouldn't right? Not enough people are calling out just how fucking broken Zerg obviously was in 2018 and 2019. I wonder why? It's probably because there were some players there that took advantage of those periods that people don't want to put asterisks next to. You forget that there have been times in which Zerg could barely go past minute 8 because of Prisms or that TvZ looked nearly impossibile for Zerg in the lategame at least twice(broken Raven first then the rain of nukes)? I'd suggest to keep this overdramatic tone for your next piace, it would be more appropriate in a theater. As Charoisaur is saying, these maps favor Zerg. Correction: Serral couldn't beat "broken" ravens. Dark and Rogue both beat Maru on the patch with "OP" ravens. Terran also did shit all around on that patch. Nukes were never broken and have never been nerfed. Ravens were too strong and were nerfed, how strong Serral was at the time is irrelevant. Nukes weren't broken and I haven't said they were, still Zerg couldn't find a reliable answer for that lategame scenario for at least one month. Both was meant to answer to Vindicare's preposterous idea for which Zerg must have been immensely op years ago since they were nerfed multiple times, forgetting not only that the other races were nerfed as well but that problematic matchups and metas existed because of maps or (temporary) inability to find solutions to certain strategies. Even in this so called 'OP nuke era' I remember at least 2 lategames where Zerg beat it (Scarlett - Maru and Inno - Serral at WESG) and not many more where Terran won in that scenario. So no, Terran dominating TvZ lategame with nukes was never a thing It wouldn't be the first time that you don't remember something, to be honest. Why is this so important, in any of case? There was a period in which Zerg struggled against nukes, it didn't last much and it wasn't a matter of balance. Well, if you say untrue things, you will get called out. You said there was a period where lategame ZvT 'looked nearly impossible because of nukes' which is simply false as the winrate of terran in that scenario wasn't even that high.
I should have expressed myself better in my first message, it looked like Raven and Nukes were just as strong which was not the case.
However, you objected with an even more false statement about nukes never being dominant in lategame TvZ.
Let's just say both were extreme takes and call it even, especially since this was not the point I originally meant to discuss.
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On April 22 2022 08:45 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2022 08:42 WombaT wrote:On April 22 2022 08:24 JJH777 wrote:On April 22 2022 07:49 Xain0n wrote:On April 22 2022 00:49 JJH777 wrote:On April 21 2022 19:33 Xain0n wrote:On April 21 2022 19:19 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 21 2022 19:16 darklycid wrote:
Yeah classic problem, the vZ is problematic for some reason and then tvp swung more towards toss this time which leads to terran underperforming this time (recently tvp swung more often towards terran which led to the tournaments last year with worse toss performance). What kills me though, is that we had 2018-2019 and then Zerg got nerfed like 10x since then and they're STILL winning everything. So let me just ask the general audience. Why would ANYONE consider a title won during those 2 years legitimate if we know NOW that Zerg has received nothing but nerf after nerf from those power levels and are still dominating? We shouldn't right? Not enough people are calling out just how fucking broken Zerg obviously was in 2018 and 2019. I wonder why? It's probably because there were some players there that took advantage of those periods that people don't want to put asterisks next to. You forget that there have been times in which Zerg could barely go past minute 8 because of Prisms or that TvZ looked nearly impossibile for Zerg in the lategame at least twice(broken Raven first then the rain of nukes)? I'd suggest to keep this overdramatic tone for your next piace, it would be more appropriate in a theater. As Charoisaur is saying, these maps favor Zerg. Correction: Serral couldn't beat "broken" ravens. Dark and Rogue both beat Maru on the patch with "OP" ravens. Terran also did shit all around on that patch. Nukes were never broken and have never been nerfed. Ravens were too strong and were nerfed, how strong Serral was at the time is irrelevant. Nukes weren't broken and I haven't said they were, still Zerg couldn't find a reliable answer for that lategame scenario for at least one month. Both was meant to answer to Vindicare's preposterous idea for which Zerg must have been immensely op years ago since they were nerfed multiple times, forgetting not only that the other races were nerfed as well but that problematic matchups and metas existed because of maps or (temporary) inability to find solutions to certain strategies. They weren't broken enough to cause T over performance or even equal performance to the other two races. Ts did terrible on that patch. Maru was the only exception. Blizz jumped the gun on that nerf and never compensated Terran for it. It was a good nerf. Blizzard haven’t pulled the trigger quick enough on other nerfs, which is 100% true but I don’t think that means that nerf was wrong. They were certainly way, way too slow to nerf BL/Infestor way back when, to take another comparable example. Mass ravens killing everything wasn’t exactly great dynamic gameplay. It may not have been interesting gameplay but that's not a good reason to nerf something in a game that is supposed to be a professional competition. You shouldn't nerf a race that is doing mediocre to outright bad in the biggest events without providing a compensating buff.
Wish Team 5 knew this...
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PvZvPvZvPvPvZvZ... Damn, I wish at least one T was still in this. Will still cheer for Rogue, although his ZvP hasn't looked stellar lately.
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EPT
