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On March 24 2022 22:29 Poopi wrote:
My liquibets are already very bad with bets on Dream and Zest, but Ryung's form in Katowice was just not a fluke, impressive stuff for sure
I'll be honest. I bet on Ryung in this round because A: I do not and have NEVER trusted Armani. B: Zest has looked THAT bad lately.
He actually looked better tonight and then inexplicably still managed to lose a game he should have won vs Ryung. Thereby completely justifying why I have completely lost faith in him.
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I watched the last big fight again and again, and notice that the whole time Zest was fighting 3-3 Bio with +1 armor Gateway units, like WTF was that.
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Ryung did it ! Great for my LBs after having missed the first bet...
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Bisutopia19307 Posts
What an epic last game. I love seeing Slayers victories!
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Amazing showing by Ryung, 4-1ing Zest and pulling a miracle out of his hat to win the last game. Also happy he didn't lose to a cannon rush after playing so well.
On March 25 2022 00:20 tigera6 wrote:
I watched the last big fight again and again, and notice that the whole time Zest was fighting 3-3 Bio with +1 armor Gateway units, like WTF was that.
That's really bad haha, the game was like 20 minutes long. He also needed more colossus or disruptors. Carrier/gateway armies just suck against bio in terms of cost efficiency.
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Northern Ireland26265 Posts
Not sure what Zest was thinking on about 19 separate occasions but it did make for an entertaining finale
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I just watched Ryung - Zest g3. This is... an abomination of a throw, right ? I can't even remember the last time I saw such a huge lead be thrown. Insane.
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On March 25 2022 05:47 [PkF] Wire wrote:
I just watched Ryung - Zest g3. This is... an abomination of a throw, right ? I can't even remember the last time I saw such a huge lead be thrown. Insane.
But but it's because Protoss needs buffs! - Reddit/Battle.net forums
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On March 25 2022 05:47 [PkF] Wire wrote:
I just watched Ryung - Zest g3. This is... an abomination of a throw, right ? I can't even remember the last time I saw such a huge lead be thrown. Insane.
Yeah, I don't know what Zest was thinking - just horrible engagement into more horrible engagements. All he had to do was wait, and starve out Ryung. Ryung only had like 2 or 3 bases, already beginning to mine out, and Zest had the rest of the map. I don't know why he kept engaging into Ryung's army (horrible engagements too - it's like he didn't micro his units), and not go for disruptors against the ghosts.
Also, just to add a related point, it seems to me that the meta for Terran plays are leaning more and more into ghosts in the matchups against P and Z. It just feels like in the recent 6-8 months, I'm beginning to see a lot more ghost plays for Terrans compared to a few years ago. I won't be surprised if ghosts will be nerfed in the future.
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On March 25 2022 11:26 buzz_bender wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2022 05:47 [PkF] Wire wrote:
I just watched Ryung - Zest g3. This is... an abomination of a throw, right ? I can't even remember the last time I saw such a huge lead be thrown. Insane. Also, just to add a related point, it seems to me that the meta for Terran plays are leaning more and more into ghosts in the matchups against P and Z. It just feels like in the recent 6-8 months, I'm beginning to see a lot more ghost plays for Terrans compared to a few years ago. I won't be surprised if ghosts will be nerfed in the future.
Yeah, Ghost is so well-rounded that it counter almost everything from Zerg if not get caught out of place. And is a nightmare with against Protoss with EMP. If I have to come up with a nerf for it, I would say reduce the Snipe damage and make EMP not able to remove shield anymore, put that as a separate ability for the Raven or something like BW.
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On March 25 2022 12:46 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2022 11:26 buzz_bender wrote:On March 25 2022 05:47 [PkF] Wire wrote:
I just watched Ryung - Zest g3. This is... an abomination of a throw, right ? I can't even remember the last time I saw such a huge lead be thrown. Insane. Also, just to add a related point, it seems to me that the meta for Terran plays are leaning more and more into ghosts in the matchups against P and Z. It just feels like in the recent 6-8 months, I'm beginning to see a lot more ghost plays for Terrans compared to a few years ago. I won't be surprised if ghosts will be nerfed in the future. Yeah, Ghost is so well-rounded that it counter almost everything from Zerg if not get caught out of place. And is a nightmare with against Protoss with EMP. If I have to come up with a nerf for it, I would say reduce the Snipe damage and make EMP not able to remove shield anymore, put that as a separate ability for the Raven or something like BW.
Ghost had always been Imba against toss especially with the increase radius
It’s just amazing it took terrans 10 years to correctly use this unit instead of the usual trying to win with brute force mmm. Then cries about toss op when they die to storm
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On March 25 2022 12:46 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2022 11:26 buzz_bender wrote:On March 25 2022 05:47 [PkF] Wire wrote:
I just watched Ryung - Zest g3. This is... an abomination of a throw, right ? I can't even remember the last time I saw such a huge lead be thrown. Insane. Also, just to add a related point, it seems to me that the meta for Terran plays are leaning more and more into ghosts in the matchups against P and Z. It just feels like in the recent 6-8 months, I'm beginning to see a lot more ghost plays for Terrans compared to a few years ago. I won't be surprised if ghosts will be nerfed in the future. If I have to come up with a nerf for it, I would say reduce the Snipe damage and make EMP not able to remove shield anymore, put that as a separate ability for the Raven or something like BW.
Nah, that'll make ghost quite useless against Protoss, and completely kill Terran when the Zerg has lurkers out. I would maybe only make the ghost more expensive, from 150/125, to maybe 175/150 or make ghosts cost 3 supplies.
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On March 25 2022 11:26 buzz_bender wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2022 05:47 [PkF] Wire wrote:
I just watched Ryung - Zest g3. This is... an abomination of a throw, right ? I can't even remember the last time I saw such a huge lead be thrown. Insane. Yeah, I don't know what Zest was thinking - just horrible engagement into more horrible engagements. All he had to do was wait, and starve out Ryung. Ryung only had like 2 or 3 bases, already beginning to mine out, and Zest had the rest of the map. I don't know why he kept engaging into Ryung's army (horrible engagements too - it's like he didn't micro his units), and not go for disruptors against the ghosts. Also, just to add a related point, it seems to me that the meta for Terran plays are leaning more and more into ghosts in the matchups against P and Z. It just feels like in the recent 6-8 months, I'm beginning to see a lot more ghost plays for Terrans compared to a few years ago. I won't be surprised if ghosts will be nerfed in the future.
I'd personally be surprised with a nerf, ghosts are strong indeed but I don't see them as imba per se. We'll see.
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On March 25 2022 17:50 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2022 11:26 buzz_bender wrote:On March 25 2022 05:47 [PkF] Wire wrote:
I just watched Ryung - Zest g3. This is... an abomination of a throw, right ? I can't even remember the last time I saw such a huge lead be thrown. Insane. Yeah, I don't know what Zest was thinking - just horrible engagement into more horrible engagements. All he had to do was wait, and starve out Ryung. Ryung only had like 2 or 3 bases, already beginning to mine out, and Zest had the rest of the map. I don't know why he kept engaging into Ryung's army (horrible engagements too - it's like he didn't micro his units), and not go for disruptors against the ghosts. Also, just to add a related point, it seems to me that the meta for Terran plays are leaning more and more into ghosts in the matchups against P and Z. It just feels like in the recent 6-8 months, I'm beginning to see a lot more ghost plays for Terrans compared to a few years ago. I won't be surprised if ghosts will be nerfed in the future. I'd personally be surprised with a nerf, ghosts are strong indeed but I don't see them as imba per se. We'll see.
Oh I agree. I think ghosts are fine as they are. But as you know, any unit that sees a lot of use, particularly late game ones, oftentimes are the ones that people are calling to nerf.
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On March 25 2022 15:39 buzz_bender wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2022 12:46 tigera6 wrote:On March 25 2022 11:26 buzz_bender wrote:On March 25 2022 05:47 [PkF] Wire wrote:
I just watched Ryung - Zest g3. This is... an abomination of a throw, right ? I can't even remember the last time I saw such a huge lead be thrown. Insane. Also, just to add a related point, it seems to me that the meta for Terran plays are leaning more and more into ghosts in the matchups against P and Z. It just feels like in the recent 6-8 months, I'm beginning to see a lot more ghost plays for Terrans compared to a few years ago. I won't be surprised if ghosts will be nerfed in the future. If I have to come up with a nerf for it, I would say reduce the Snipe damage and make EMP not able to remove shield anymore, put that as a separate ability for the Raven or something like BW. Nah, that'll make ghost quite useless against Protoss, and completely kill Terran when the Zerg has lurkers out. I would maybe only make the ghost more expensive, from 150/125, to maybe 175/150 or make ghosts cost 3 supplies.
Either that or make them more vulnerable. It takes a ridiculous amount of banelings to kill a ghost for example.
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France12909 Posts
On March 25 2022 19:51 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2022 15:39 buzz_bender wrote:On March 25 2022 12:46 tigera6 wrote:On March 25 2022 11:26 buzz_bender wrote:On March 25 2022 05:47 [PkF] Wire wrote:
I just watched Ryung - Zest g3. This is... an abomination of a throw, right ? I can't even remember the last time I saw such a huge lead be thrown. Insane. Also, just to add a related point, it seems to me that the meta for Terran plays are leaning more and more into ghosts in the matchups against P and Z. It just feels like in the recent 6-8 months, I'm beginning to see a lot more ghost plays for Terrans compared to a few years ago. I won't be surprised if ghosts will be nerfed in the future. If I have to come up with a nerf for it, I would say reduce the Snipe damage and make EMP not able to remove shield anymore, put that as a separate ability for the Raven or something like BW. Nah, that'll make ghost quite useless against Protoss, and completely kill Terran when the Zerg has lurkers out. I would maybe only make the ghost more expensive, from 150/125, to maybe 175/150 or make ghosts cost 3 supplies. Either that or make them more vulnerable. It takes a ridiculous amount of banelings to kill a ghost for example.
And yet every top terran that attempted lategame versus zerg died at IEM Katowice vs top zergs.
Calling for a ghost nerf because Zest threw yet another game (remember Code S finals versus Cure) seems a bit preemptive.
It should be clear at this point that be it midgame or lategame, Zest doesn't like to just "wait it out" / "chill at home macroing" in a lot of situations when it's the optimal play, and gets punished for it from times to times
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Ghosts are indeed bordeline op, maps just favor Zerg too much right now even if we haven't seen enough TvZ post patch to evaluate the effect of the nerfs to lurkers and widow mines.
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Lol ghosts are finally atleast a bit viable elsewhere than just TvP lategame and people are calling it OP and yelling for a nerf. :D I wouldnt mind removing the EMP radius buff upgrade but any other change would be complete overkill.
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Northern Ireland26265 Posts
I don’t think ghosts are too strong vs toss, certainly not based on these games anyway.
As Vindicare correctly pointed out, Zest didn’t rebuild his disruptors for no conceivable reason. Even if you’re not hitting novas you’re forcing repositions and they’re your zoning tool.
Zest effectively balled up and ate EMPs on his whole army multiple times
Zest had Templars in a prism that Ryung impressively nailed on multiple occasions too, but that’s made a hell of a lot easier when outside of the main army if you see a prism moving towards you, oh that’ll be Templars. It’s a hell of a lot harder when you’re dodging novas and having to reposition.
It’s almost the equivalent of someone going for lib/ghost lategame comps and not rebuilding their libs, getting rolled and that showing imbalance. Zest done goofed to that level, IMO. Although last game from the cannon fail through to the establishing of lategame stability Zest made every call almost right, so made his throwing even more baffling.
I do think Protoss got the short stick last patch, some combination of overnerfed and underbuffed. The nerfs are fine IMO in broad isolation, and in the builds/play styles they targeted there’s not much corresponding to
I’m reserving judgement until things settle and I see some code S Protoss actually play well, or have good game plans. Classic still looks a little off his sharpest play, and his plans looked super exploitable and so it proved. Zest well, did that.
Props to Ryung he seems really good in TvP. He seems to do the little things in placement and positioning very well and unlike a lot of players he’s really good at sharking and not throwing units away. He takes engagements he can really get work done in, or he doesn’t take them.
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EPT
