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United States1880 Posts
On February 28 2022 00:26 darklycid wrote:Still don't understand why ppl hate the +2 blink PvZ one of the few times where I as a toss actually felt I could go out on the map without being fully committed 
people hated it because it rolled zerg. you could commit to +2 blink attack while taking a nexus behind it. if the zerg somehow survived with roach/ling, the p would just be making immortals and high templars and end the game a few minutes later
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On February 28 2022 06:19 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2022 00:26 darklycid wrote:Still don't understand why ppl hate the +2 blink PvZ one of the few times where I as a toss actually felt I could go out on the map without being fully committed people hated it because it rolled zerg. you could commit to +2 blink attack while taking a nexus behind it. if the zerg somehow survived with roach/ling, the p would just be making immortals and high templars and end the game a few minutes later
If i look at tournament winrates it doesn't look too bad, don't think you can saz it rolled zerg, the last gsl of 2015 was a tvz finals e.g.
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Northern Ireland25538 Posts
On February 28 2022 06:19 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2022 00:26 darklycid wrote:Still don't understand why ppl hate the +2 blink PvZ one of the few times where I as a toss actually felt I could go out on the map without being fully committed people hated it because it rolled zerg. you could commit to +2 blink attack while taking a nexus behind it. if the zerg somehow survived with roach/ling, the p would just be making immortals and high templars and end the game a few minutes later
Aside from the first few times where the sheer quality of blink micro was impressive, the lack of counterplay was a really huge problem for me. If the opponent can’t really do anything but rely on your execution being sub-optimal, there’s only so long it’s fun to watch the execution.
See also the Soul TrainTM and those cannon/battery rushes into Immortal/Prism. Parting was a god at those, and we saw how good he was by other players botching those pushes, but when he nailed it I usually felt there was literally nothing a Zerg could actually do once the push actually hit full flow
Also as you say how difficult it was to pick the difference between ‘hey I’m here to poke and make a third’ and ‘hello there I am going to kill you’.
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France12886 Posts
Yeah that’s pretty similar to ByuN mastery of the reapers.
Sure, uThermal and Kelazhur punched above their weights a few times, but even Maru could not make it work as well as ByuN who was the only terran able to beat any terran (he did it to TY iirc at BlizzCon) and zerg (or at least get into good position / take several maps).
So even though only one guy was truly making the unit / build not counterable, the opponent could not really do much when it was versus ByuN or was forced to fall too far behind (like Dark in the last game iirc)
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On February 28 2022 02:34 Husyelt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2022 00:39 travis wrote:
Kinda funny, I don't think the question of GOAT will ever have a clear answer in sc2. It’s Maru/Serral/Rogue, but their accomplishments and skills are all varied enough that it’s hard to compare. Innovation and MVP and Life also are relatively close behind. I don’t mind anyone claiming Rogue the goat or Maru or whoever, they all are a step above the majority of their peers.
Since there's actually something to discuss I'm not gonna claim anyone as GOAT of SC2. Still I think Innovation should definitely be in the same category as Maru/Serral/Rogue. The only reason I'd leave Life and MVP out of that group is because they weren't active for long enough.
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Northern Ireland25538 Posts
On February 28 2022 07:21 EquilasH wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2022 02:34 Husyelt wrote:On February 28 2022 00:39 travis wrote:
Kinda funny, I don't think the question of GOAT will ever have a clear answer in sc2. It’s Maru/Serral/Rogue, but their accomplishments and skills are all varied enough that it’s hard to compare. Innovation and MVP and Life also are relatively close behind. I don’t mind anyone claiming Rogue the goat or Maru or whoever, they all are a step above the majority of their peers. Since there's actually something to discuss I'm not gonna claim anyone as GOAT of SC2. Still I think Innovation should definitely be in the same category as Maru/Serral/Rogue. The only reason I'd leave Life and MVP out of that group is because they weren't active for long enough.
I think Mvp makes it into the conversation because he kind of laid the blueprint for Terran play, and he was the outright best player in the world for a time. Some on the GOAT list make it in for me for being one of the world’s best for years anyway, but I think being the outright best for even a short time is worth points.
In an RTS the guys who figured out and fleshed out how to play the game sometimes can get left out in comparison to those that came later with better execution and building on the knowledge.
Finally for greatness points his latter results, that last Code S run, memorably going toe to toe with Inno in TvT while injuries had really impacted play etc speak to the intangible elements of greatness.
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Maybe i'm misremembering, but the blink oepner did pressure to the zerg and allowed to transition behind it without a cleanup meaning you probably lost the game as you didn't depend too hard on high tech slow to replace units. Also the transitions were colossi or ht iirc with both offering different ways and there were definitly options for the zerg too and i don't remember any protoss executing it at a level similar to a soul train. At the end of hots zergs found ways to deal with it and i think the mu would have been more interesting as it developed into a more active one imo with more continuous action on the map.
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On February 28 2022 07:27 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2022 07:21 EquilasH wrote:On February 28 2022 02:34 Husyelt wrote:On February 28 2022 00:39 travis wrote:
Kinda funny, I don't think the question of GOAT will ever have a clear answer in sc2. It’s Maru/Serral/Rogue, but their accomplishments and skills are all varied enough that it’s hard to compare. Innovation and MVP and Life also are relatively close behind. I don’t mind anyone claiming Rogue the goat or Maru or whoever, they all are a step above the majority of their peers. Since there's actually something to discuss I'm not gonna claim anyone as GOAT of SC2. Still I think Innovation should definitely be in the same category as Maru/Serral/Rogue. The only reason I'd leave Life and MVP out of that group is because they weren't active for long enough. I think Mvp makes it into the conversation because he kind of laid the blueprint for Terran play, and he was the outright best player in the world for a time. Some on the GOAT list make it in for me for being one of the world’s best for years anyway, but I think being the outright best for even a short time is worth points. In an RTS the guys who figured out and fleshed out how to play the game sometimes can get left out in comparison to those that came later with better execution and building on the knowledge. Finally for greatness points his latter results, that last Code S run, memorably going toe to toe with Inno in TvT while injuries had really impacted play etc speak to the intangible elements of greatness.
Don't get me wrong, I think he was an amazing player and innovator. In some ways it's kind of unfair of me leaving him out of the conversation due to injuries (I didn't even remember that's why he retired) but to me you have to be active for longer to be in contention for the title of GOAT.
With that said, I think he was the most notable player of his era.
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On February 28 2022 06:08 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2022 04:28 [PkF] Wire wrote:On February 28 2022 04:26 HeroSandro wrote:On February 28 2022 04:00 Poopi wrote:On February 28 2022 03:57 Xitah wrote:
One thing people forget is that good players push each other forward. That has been the reason Korea has been dominant for so long and also the reason why suddenly EU is doing so much better. Serral is definitely in the talks for the GOAT and soon it won't be just a twitch meme to say EU>KR. Isn't that bound to happen eventually though? EU is the only region that still has some fresh blood, although not that many. Korea on the other hand has virtually zero new blood, the ladder is ghostown there, their "old" guard are retiring one by one because of military service. For now KR is still superior if we take top 16 vs top 16, as shown this iEM with only 3 foreigners making it out of groups, but at the very top everyone is around the same level between EU and KR. But as time goes on there just won't be a korean scene in sc2 :/ Korean new blood is the veterans voming back from the army  this can't go on forever though, so I think he's right, if we go on like that, KR scene will wither and end up disappearing in the long run ; the game could still go in the EU / NA scene though. Nobody has quite come back at their absolute peak, for whatever reason. The only player who has/got better is Zoun, and he’s atypical in that he took it early I think it’s Zoun who did that, Dream too. If I’m talking out of my arse let me know. Even in a scenario where every military returnee came back at 100%, Korea would still eventually wither through non-military retirements if some sort of pipeline to sustainability. They had the structure in the eSF/KeSPA eras, such a strong backbone that it was enough to support that scene for years after they weren’t a factor, but it’s pretty clear something else is needed. Conversely, although controversial the current WCS system is, if nothing else a great structure for the European scene and for players to develop. For whatever reason it hasn’t had the same galvanising effect on NA, but I don’t think there’s a one-size-fits-all system that’s going to dovetail neatly with the various regional scenes.
I think it's really a combination of things. Region lock + proleague dying meant the WCS pay structure could only support realistically so many pro players (not to mention lack of popularity in KR so streams aren't as lucrative to supplement income). The old guard was too good and the gap was very hard to close for new blood especially with the money being so scarce so there wasnt a huge financial motivation.
Add on top of that the fact that most of the Korean players have been pros for a decade and realistically are looking towards their next step in life as they near 30 years old especially post military.
Most interest in SC2 is in the west so it only makes sense that eventually it will overtake KR as the center of the scene.
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Northern Ireland25538 Posts
On February 28 2022 07:32 darklycid wrote:
Maybe i'm misremembering, but the blink oepner did pressure to the zerg and allowed to transition behind it without a cleanup meaning you probably lost the game as you didn't depend too hard on high tech slow to replace units. Also the transitions were colossi or ht iirc with both offering different ways and there were definitly options for the zerg too and i don't remember any protoss executing it at a level similar to a soul train. At the end of hots zergs found ways to deal with it and i think the mu would have been more interesting as it developed into a more active one imo with more continuous action on the map.
I think those aspects were quite positive. Just in general a meta where the Protoss could be out on the map without doing committed pushes. That’s certainly lacking today. It doesn’t help that force field has went from being a crucial, but uncounterable in enabling Protoss to shark, to being basically useless in the matchup.
My main issue with that blink meta, and some of the PvT blink metas was more the comparable ease of transitioning/difficulty of scouting or star sensing a committed blink allin from a posturing into being greedy as fuck behind it.
I think the simultaneous best and worst meta for PvZ was WoL BL/Infestor. Initially you had Protoss like Liquid HerO picking Zergs apart with every aspect of the Protoss arsenal in legit macro games going toe to toe. As Zerg got better at plugging holes in their defences it eventually moved to being almost unwinnable.
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Northern Ireland25538 Posts
On February 28 2022 07:37 EquilasH wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2022 07:27 WombaT wrote:On February 28 2022 07:21 EquilasH wrote:On February 28 2022 02:34 Husyelt wrote:On February 28 2022 00:39 travis wrote:
Kinda funny, I don't think the question of GOAT will ever have a clear answer in sc2. It’s Maru/Serral/Rogue, but their accomplishments and skills are all varied enough that it’s hard to compare. Innovation and MVP and Life also are relatively close behind. I don’t mind anyone claiming Rogue the goat or Maru or whoever, they all are a step above the majority of their peers. Since there's actually something to discuss I'm not gonna claim anyone as GOAT of SC2. Still I think Innovation should definitely be in the same category as Maru/Serral/Rogue. The only reason I'd leave Life and MVP out of that group is because they weren't active for long enough. I think Mvp makes it into the conversation because he kind of laid the blueprint for Terran play, and he was the outright best player in the world for a time. Some on the GOAT list make it in for me for being one of the world’s best for years anyway, but I think being the outright best for even a short time is worth points. In an RTS the guys who figured out and fleshed out how to play the game sometimes can get left out in comparison to those that came later with better execution and building on the knowledge. Finally for greatness points his latter results, that last Code S run, memorably going toe to toe with Inno in TvT while injuries had really impacted play etc speak to the intangible elements of greatness. Don't get me wrong, I think he was an amazing player and innovator. In some ways it's kind of unfair of me leaving him out of the conversation due to injuries (I didn't even remember that's why he retired) but to me you have to be active for longer to be in contention for the title of GOAT. With that said, I think he was the most notable player of his era.
On the flip side Maru has been an active pro for the entirety of SC2. Considerably longer than the Mvps, also considerably longer than Serral or Reynor have been too pros. He’s a few years head start on the Kespa guys who are still around. He was young enough that military service is still a distance away.
He’s still a great too, obviously. But considering how long he’s been in the scene and how good he is, his trophy cabinet should be better than most, and tbh it isn’t even that.
To me greatness encompasses a lot, a Maru in full flow is IMO without question the best player we’ve seen, the GSL 4peat was insane and his general performance in the Kespa era and in Starleagues even in periods Terran was garbage were sick. People definitely either forget or deliberately ignore some of what he was doing before his miraculous 4 GSLs
On the flip side I think his longevity counts against him in the field of world championships and general tournament wins internationally, he’s had longer than basically everyone in those domains.
On relatively short careers Taeja seems to have flipped from being rather overrated when he was active to super underrated these days. Rain swapped over, became the best Protoss scarily quickly, picked up the first GSL for a teamless player and then departed the stage.
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On February 28 2022 08:14 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2022 07:37 EquilasH wrote:On February 28 2022 07:27 WombaT wrote:On February 28 2022 07:21 EquilasH wrote:On February 28 2022 02:34 Husyelt wrote:On February 28 2022 00:39 travis wrote:
Kinda funny, I don't think the question of GOAT will ever have a clear answer in sc2. It’s Maru/Serral/Rogue, but their accomplishments and skills are all varied enough that it’s hard to compare. Innovation and MVP and Life also are relatively close behind. I don’t mind anyone claiming Rogue the goat or Maru or whoever, they all are a step above the majority of their peers. Since there's actually something to discuss I'm not gonna claim anyone as GOAT of SC2. Still I think Innovation should definitely be in the same category as Maru/Serral/Rogue. The only reason I'd leave Life and MVP out of that group is because they weren't active for long enough. I think Mvp makes it into the conversation because he kind of laid the blueprint for Terran play, and he was the outright best player in the world for a time. Some on the GOAT list make it in for me for being one of the world’s best for years anyway, but I think being the outright best for even a short time is worth points. In an RTS the guys who figured out and fleshed out how to play the game sometimes can get left out in comparison to those that came later with better execution and building on the knowledge. Finally for greatness points his latter results, that last Code S run, memorably going toe to toe with Inno in TvT while injuries had really impacted play etc speak to the intangible elements of greatness. Don't get me wrong, I think he was an amazing player and innovator. In some ways it's kind of unfair of me leaving him out of the conversation due to injuries (I didn't even remember that's why he retired) but to me you have to be active for longer to be in contention for the title of GOAT. With that said, I think he was the most notable player of his era. On the flip side Maru has been an active pro for the entirety of SC2. Considerably longer than the Mvps, also considerably longer than Serral or Reynor have been too pros. He’s a few years head start on the Kespa guys who are still around. He was young enough that military service is still a distance away. He’s still a great too, obviously. But considering how long he’s been in the scene and how good he is, his trophy cabinet should be better than most, and tbh it isn’t even that. To me greatness encompasses a lot, a Maru in full flow is IMO without question the best player we’ve seen, the GSL 4peat was insane and his general performance in the Kespa era and in Starleagues even in periods Terran was garbage were sick. People definitely either forget or deliberately ignore some of what he was doing before his miraculous 4 GSLs On the flip side I think his longevity counts against him in the field of world championships and general tournament wins internationally, he’s had longer than basically everyone in those domains. On relatively short careers Taeja seems to have flipped from being rather overrated when he was active to super underrated these days. Rain swapped over, became the best Protoss scarily quickly, picked up the first GSL for a teamless player and then departed the stage.
Tbf Serral is also around for way longer then ppl may be remembering just because he didn't really go full time and full focus until i think 2017?
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It felt wrong and off for me to watch a game about warfare this week. I am glad the tournament apparently went without any covid related issues and congrats to serral, and to heromarine for his miracle run
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This game will die the same way it fell off to mobas when it was at its prime, imcompetent(nonexistant now) balance team forcing people to endure this shit. In WoL and Hots they let balance problems fester so people would buy their expansions, now they just let it be. 8 world championships in a row to the same race, threads popping on the forum about how absurdly bad other races are compared to Zerg, and we are to believe the game is in a decent state.
Congrats to Serral, our new Sniper. To our Roros too, for this exquisite performance. Thank god this is the last year of this torture.
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On February 28 2022 08:14 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2022 07:37 EquilasH wrote:On February 28 2022 07:27 WombaT wrote:On February 28 2022 07:21 EquilasH wrote:On February 28 2022 02:34 Husyelt wrote:On February 28 2022 00:39 travis wrote:
Kinda funny, I don't think the question of GOAT will ever have a clear answer in sc2. It’s Maru/Serral/Rogue, but their accomplishments and skills are all varied enough that it’s hard to compare. Innovation and MVP and Life also are relatively close behind. I don’t mind anyone claiming Rogue the goat or Maru or whoever, they all are a step above the majority of their peers. Since there's actually something to discuss I'm not gonna claim anyone as GOAT of SC2. Still I think Innovation should definitely be in the same category as Maru/Serral/Rogue. The only reason I'd leave Life and MVP out of that group is because they weren't active for long enough. I think Mvp makes it into the conversation because he kind of laid the blueprint for Terran play, and he was the outright best player in the world for a time. Some on the GOAT list make it in for me for being one of the world’s best for years anyway, but I think being the outright best for even a short time is worth points. In an RTS the guys who figured out and fleshed out how to play the game sometimes can get left out in comparison to those that came later with better execution and building on the knowledge. Finally for greatness points his latter results, that last Code S run, memorably going toe to toe with Inno in TvT while injuries had really impacted play etc speak to the intangible elements of greatness. Don't get me wrong, I think he was an amazing player and innovator. In some ways it's kind of unfair of me leaving him out of the conversation due to injuries (I didn't even remember that's why he retired) but to me you have to be active for longer to be in contention for the title of GOAT. With that said, I think he was the most notable player of his era. On the flip side Maru has been an active pro for the entirety of SC2. Considerably longer than the Mvps, also considerably longer than Serral or Reynor have been too pros. He’s a few years head start on the Kespa guys who are still around. He was young enough that military service is still a distance away. He’s still a great too, obviously. But considering how long he’s been in the scene and how good he is, his trophy cabinet should be better than most, and tbh it isn’t even that. To me greatness encompasses a lot, a Maru in full flow is IMO without question the best player we’ve seen, the GSL 4peat was insane and his general performance in the Kespa era and in Starleagues even in periods Terran was garbage were sick. People definitely either forget or deliberately ignore some of what he was doing before his miraculous 4 GSLs On the flip side I think his longevity counts against him in the field of world championships and general tournament wins internationally, he’s had longer than basically everyone in those domains. On relatively short careers Taeja seems to have flipped from being rather overrated when he was active to super underrated these days. Rain swapped over, became the best Protoss scarily quickly, picked up the first GSL for a teamless player and then departed the stage.
This is actually the reason I think you have to be active for longer than 2-3 years to be in contention for GOAT. In my opinion Maru was well on his way to being GOAT but because he wasn't nearly as dominant internationally as people expected I don't wanna crown him GOAT.
Also I think there was one thing I could've been more clear on in my first post; I don't think you can crown someone the GOAT of Starcraft 2 because so many players have shown so much that make them GOAT material but no one is the full package. My main point in the first post was that if you wanna discuss whether Serral, Maru or Rogue is the GOAT Innovation should be in the same discussion.
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On February 28 2022 08:41 Morbidius wrote:
This game will die the same way it fell off to mobas when it was at its prime, imcompetent(nonexistant now) balance team forcing people to endure this shit. In WoL and Hots they let balance problems fester so people would buy their expansions, now they just let it be. 8 world championships in a row to the same race, threads popping on the forum about how absurdly bad other races are compared to Zerg, and we are to believe the game is in a decent state.
Congrats to Serral, our new Sniper. To our Roros too, for this exquisite performance. Thank god this is the last year of this torture.
Hey Morbidius, can you tell me if foreign Starcraft has hit rock bottom at Katowice?
Here you can see a real hater in action, guys.
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Northern Ireland25538 Posts
On February 28 2022 08:41 Morbidius wrote:
This game will die the same way it fell off to mobas when it was at its prime, imcompetent(nonexistant now) balance team forcing people to endure this shit. In WoL and Hots they let balance problems fester so people would buy their expansions, now they just let it be. 8 world championships in a row to the same race, threads popping on the forum about how absurdly bad other races are compared to Zerg, and we are to believe the game is in a decent state.
Congrats to Serral, our new Sniper. To our Roros too, for this exquisite performance. Thank god this is the last year of this torture.
It’s ridiculous hyperbole to compare Serral to those guys. Who to be fair were still decent players.
Heromarine took Reynor to the wire for a place in the final, Clem didn’t show anywhere near his best form, Maru underwhelmed against Serral.
Yeah Zerg are absurdly dominant if we don’t talk Korean premiers, or other international premiers and exclusively use Katowice/Blizzcon as our metric.
I think it’s absurd to deny that Zerg at the top end aren’t too at least some degree the strongest race, but it’s aided by having 4 monsters in their ranks.
It’s not like Zergs outside the ‘big 4’ have done anything of note for ages, unlike say the BL/Infestor era where Zergs across the board were getting bumps in their results.
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Northern Ireland25538 Posts
On February 28 2022 08:41 EquilasH wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2022 08:14 WombaT wrote:On February 28 2022 07:37 EquilasH wrote:On February 28 2022 07:27 WombaT wrote:On February 28 2022 07:21 EquilasH wrote:On February 28 2022 02:34 Husyelt wrote:On February 28 2022 00:39 travis wrote:
Kinda funny, I don't think the question of GOAT will ever have a clear answer in sc2. It’s Maru/Serral/Rogue, but their accomplishments and skills are all varied enough that it’s hard to compare. Innovation and MVP and Life also are relatively close behind. I don’t mind anyone claiming Rogue the goat or Maru or whoever, they all are a step above the majority of their peers. Since there's actually something to discuss I'm not gonna claim anyone as GOAT of SC2. Still I think Innovation should definitely be in the same category as Maru/Serral/Rogue. The only reason I'd leave Life and MVP out of that group is because they weren't active for long enough. I think Mvp makes it into the conversation because he kind of laid the blueprint for Terran play, and he was the outright best player in the world for a time. Some on the GOAT list make it in for me for being one of the world’s best for years anyway, but I think being the outright best for even a short time is worth points. In an RTS the guys who figured out and fleshed out how to play the game sometimes can get left out in comparison to those that came later with better execution and building on the knowledge. Finally for greatness points his latter results, that last Code S run, memorably going toe to toe with Inno in TvT while injuries had really impacted play etc speak to the intangible elements of greatness. Don't get me wrong, I think he was an amazing player and innovator. In some ways it's kind of unfair of me leaving him out of the conversation due to injuries (I didn't even remember that's why he retired) but to me you have to be active for longer to be in contention for the title of GOAT. With that said, I think he was the most notable player of his era. On the flip side Maru has been an active pro for the entirety of SC2. Considerably longer than the Mvps, also considerably longer than Serral or Reynor have been too pros. He’s a few years head start on the Kespa guys who are still around. He was young enough that military service is still a distance away. He’s still a great too, obviously. But considering how long he’s been in the scene and how good he is, his trophy cabinet should be better than most, and tbh it isn’t even that. To me greatness encompasses a lot, a Maru in full flow is IMO without question the best player we’ve seen, the GSL 4peat was insane and his general performance in the Kespa era and in Starleagues even in periods Terran was garbage were sick. People definitely either forget or deliberately ignore some of what he was doing before his miraculous 4 GSLs On the flip side I think his longevity counts against him in the field of world championships and general tournament wins internationally, he’s had longer than basically everyone in those domains. On relatively short careers Taeja seems to have flipped from being rather overrated when he was active to super underrated these days. Rain swapped over, became the best Protoss scarily quickly, picked up the first GSL for a teamless player and then departed the stage. This is actually the reason I think you have to be active for longer than 2-3 years to be in contention for GOAT. In my opinion Maru was well on his way to being GOAT but because he wasn't nearly as dominant internationally as people expected I don't wanna crown him GOAT. Also I think there was one thing I could've been more clear on in my first post; I don't think you can crown someone the GOAT of Starcraft 2 because so many players have shown so much that make them GOAT material but no one is the full package. My main point in the first post was that if you wanna discuss whether Serral, Maru or Rogue is the GOAT Innovation should be in the same discussion.
Oh yeah 100% I had Inno as my vote as the poll a while back.
I think post Kespa switch, peak Inno was one of the scariest players we’ve ever seen, in all matchups, and he subsequently won many a tourney.
As I often say for me you can only hope to be part of the conversation, to establish a definitive GOAT outside of a Flash level player, in SC2 is just too difficult given we’re covering 3 expansions and the tournament scene has been ripped up and changed innumerable times
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Does anyone have the VODs? I missed half the tournament so I want to watch it from the beginning.
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EPT
