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Waxangel
United States33421 Posts
 IEM Katowice 2022Streams & CastersFormat
Map Pool PlayersResultsCSS: FO-nTTaX Awesomeness: Panda Banner: IEM | ||
Poopi
France12886 Posts
HeroMarine could beat Reynor with well thought out builds but it’s gonna be difficult | ||
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Circumstance
United States11403 Posts
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umelbumel
2026 Posts
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tilhorizon
Germany191 Posts
, i think from all professional sc2 players | ||
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Hider
Denmark9391 Posts
On February 27 2022 17:40 Poopi wrote: I wonder if Rogue has what it takes to beat both Serral and Reynor? HeroMarine could beat Reynor with well thought out builds but it’s gonna be difficult Doesn't seem very plausible to me. Peak Reynor excels at early game defenses. I feel like HM takes one game at most. | ||
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absinthfee
Germany718 Posts
On February 27 2022 18:43 Hider wrote: Doesn't seem very plausible to me. Peak Reynor excels at early game defenses. I feel like HM takes one game at most. HM has recently beat Reynor at dreamhack, so it is possible, but also quite unlikely. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18028 Posts
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Circumstance
United States11403 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9391 Posts
On February 27 2022 18:44 absinthfee wrote: HM has recently beat Reynor at dreamhack, so it is possible, but also quite unlikely. Yeh but I think that wasn't peak Reynor. We haven't seen peak reynor since like... last Katowice? He looks like someone that has gone in insane practice mode past month. Reynor kinda comes off as an insanely talented player who chills for most of the year but then gets shit together before Katowice, wins it and then goes back to chilling. | ||
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DBooN
Germany2727 Posts
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Eisenheim
France229 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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Circumstance
United States11403 Posts
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Oukka
Finland1683 Posts
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HeroSandro
531 Posts
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Poopi
France12886 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9391 Posts
On February 27 2022 18:43 Hider wrote: Doesn't seem very plausible to me. Peak Reynor excels at early game defenses. I feel like HM takes one game at most. Nevermind. | ||
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DBooN
Germany2727 Posts
Well, so far he's only taken one game! | ||
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Hider
Denmark9391 Posts
Yeh was a poor defense by Reynor though. Baneling speed a little delayed, then still attacked just before. 60 drones seemed a little unnecessary when you scouted exactly what he went for? Also don't think you had to lose 3 overlords there. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9391 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4949 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9391 Posts
On February 27 2022 19:24 Hider wrote: Yeh I think HM should stick to 2-base all ins, maybe mix in a 1 base build. nevermind looks like he might do it again. | ||
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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DBooN
Germany2727 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4949 Posts
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umelbumel
2026 Posts
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
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Circumstance
United States11403 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
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Oukka
Finland1683 Posts
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Poopi
France12886 Posts
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absinthfee
Germany718 Posts
On February 27 2022 19:28 swarminfestor wrote: Just coming back, suddently Heromarine took 2 maps from Reynor. How did Reynor lose the first map? 2 base all-in | ||
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Hider
Denmark9391 Posts
And as a response their opponents think they have time to tech up and drone. Again, Reynor probably didn't need Hive and 85 drones vs a 3-base all in. Seemed like he had a significant lack of banelings after holding of the initial attack and had too much money for him to be able to use. | ||
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
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Poopi
France12886 Posts
On February 27 2022 19:29 Hider wrote: If I had to guess it appears that players are just confused as to playing against someone that is so dedicated to to their game-plan like HM. Normally terrans have a fallback plan. E.g. let me kinda try out this attack; if it doesn't work I go back and built my 4th and defend it. And as a response their opponents think they have time to tech up and drone. Again, Reynor probably didn't need Hive and 85 drones vs a 3-base all in. Seemed like he had a significant lack of banelings after holding of the initial attack and had too much money for him to be able to use. Reynor is just far less safe than Serral, he is far too greedy whereas Serral tries to play perfect | ||
Fecalfeast
Canada11355 Posts
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umelbumel
2026 Posts
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tigera6
3401 Posts
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stilt
France2749 Posts
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t5Fab
183 Posts
What a cursed reality. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9391 Posts
On February 27 2022 19:31 Poopi wrote: Reynor is just far less safe than Serral, he is far too greedy whereas Serral tries to play perfect He has said himself he plays by instincts. And the thing about playing by instincts is that they tend to be based of what usually happens. But usually terrans don't play like Heromarine. My prediction going into this series was that Reynor would have adjusted somewhat based on what he had seen of HM's play prior in the tournament - but besides the very cautious scouting in game 1, it doesn't seem to be the case. | ||
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Fecalfeast
Canada11355 Posts
On February 27 2022 19:34 t5Fab wrote: Heromarine will win this and then lose 4-0 in the finals Vs Rogue. What a cursed reality. Since you have the sight, are the games at least good? | ||
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9391 Posts
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DBooN
Germany2727 Posts
On February 27 2022 19:35 Fecalfeast wrote: Since you have the sight, are the games at least good? Not with Rogue. | ||
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Swisslink
2953 Posts
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tigera6
3401 Posts
On February 27 2022 19:35 Hider wrote: He has said himself he plays by instincts. And the thing about playing by instincts is that they tend to be based of what usually happens. But usually terrans don't play like Heromarine. My prediction going into this series was that Reynor would have adjusted somewhat based on what he had seen of HM's play prior in the tournament - but besides the very cautious scouting in game 1, it doesn't seem to be the case. When he was playing against Maru, Reynor always go with Overlord speed first and repeatedly sending them into the base to scout exactly what was done and build a counter to that. He just didnt do it in the first 2 games and just kinda looking over HM giant shoulder toward the Final or something. | ||
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Fecalfeast
Canada11355 Posts
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DBooN
Germany2727 Posts
On February 27 2022 19:40 tigera6 wrote: When he was playing against Maru, Reynor always go with Overlord speed first and repeatedly sending them into the base to scout exactly what was done and build a counter to that. He just didnt do it in the first 2 games and just kinda looking over HM giant shoulder toward the Final or something. He went overlord speed and saw everything in game 1. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9391 Posts
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tigera6
3401 Posts
On February 27 2022 19:41 DBooN wrote: He went overlord speed and saw everything in game 1. yeah, and did not build a counter, instead went full greed like he scouted nothing. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9204 Posts
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9391 Posts
On February 27 2022 19:34 t5Fab wrote: Heromarine will win this and then lose 4-0 in the finals Vs Rogue. What a cursed reality. If this happens I will fund you a betting account. | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
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Swisslink
2953 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9391 Posts
On February 27 2022 19:42 tigera6 wrote: yeah, and did not build a counter, instead went full greed like he scouted nothing. I think he did react, but just didn't seem like he knew the exact timings and tried to greed just a tiny bit too much. I think if baneling speed had been out like 15 seconds earlier and a couple of drones less it would have been enough to easily hold it off. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9391 Posts
On February 27 2022 19:45 Swisslink wrote: I'm not sure I am still favouring HM now. He relies o heavily on his pushes and reynor seems to have adapted to the style by now. And I'm not sure HM can stand his ground with a more standard approach. What I hope is that Heromarine has one fake build up his sleeve. E.g. he knows how and when reynor will scout, he makes it look like a 3-base greed build, reynor scouts it, and then switches into a 2-base mass scv pull or some insane shit. | ||
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Fecalfeast
Canada11355 Posts
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EquilasH
Denmark2142 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9391 Posts
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Fyzar
Netherlands8010 Posts
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Fecalfeast
Canada11355 Posts
On February 27 2022 19:52 EquilasH wrote: Didn't realize games would start earlier today. Were the first 3 games good? Heromarine played really really well the first two games | ||
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4949 Posts
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EquilasH
Denmark2142 Posts
On February 27 2022 19:52 Hider wrote: Heromarine stopping at 48 scv's. That was exactly what I was hoping for. Finally getting a prediction kinda right. This is the same build he used vs Solar in one of the games yesterday right? | ||
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DBooN
Germany2727 Posts
On February 27 2022 19:54 Fyzar wrote: But why would you go 80 drones when all he’s done is 3base allin you Because apparently you can just hold it anyways. | ||
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HeroSandro
531 Posts
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On February 27 2022 19:44 Nakajin wrote: Of course it's 2-0 HM and as soon as I wake up Reynor start winning... Sorry everyone, I've doomed you all | ||
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Swisslink
2953 Posts
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Fecalfeast
Canada11355 Posts
On February 27 2022 19:54 Fyzar wrote: But why would you go 80 drones when all he’s done is 3base allin you Because going for 100 is a little excessive | ||
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Poopi
France12886 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9391 Posts
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tigera6
3401 Posts
On February 27 2022 19:55 HeroSandro wrote: Pretty sure Reynor takes the last game. Too clutch. To be honest, Reynor messed up the first 2 games badly, with credit given to HM for his build order choice. But I was expecting something of the same to the later 2 games | ||
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Fyzar
Netherlands8010 Posts
On February 27 2022 19:51 Fecalfeast wrote: Maybe it's because it's almost 3am and I'm holding my little baby but I'm feeling pretty good about still being able to watch pro sc2 in a TL thread after 12 years It’s amazing isn’t it. So many years gone by | ||
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EquilasH
Denmark2142 Posts
On February 27 2022 19:54 Fecalfeast wrote: Heromarine played really really well the first two games Heromarine has been on fire this Katowice. Gonna have to go back and rewatch the first games. | ||
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Fecalfeast
Canada11355 Posts
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tigera6
3401 Posts
On February 27 2022 19:57 Fecalfeast wrote: I can respect trying again game 4 but yeah HM hopefully has something up his sleeve BC Mech FTW | ||
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Sent.
Poland9204 Posts
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Oukka
Finland1683 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9391 Posts
On February 27 2022 19:58 Sent. wrote: Not looking great for Heromarine, he's not surprising Reynor with anything Reynor definitely didn't expect that push in game 4. Heromarine executed it rather poorly by not protecting his tanks. Could have kept the hellbats alive and use them to protect the tanks vs ling flanks. Instead he way overextended with his marines. You play that scenario out a 100 times and I think HM should win 50% of them. | ||
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Fecalfeast
Canada11355 Posts
Well I'll be damned | ||
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Hider
Denmark9391 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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Swisslink
2953 Posts
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tigera6
3401 Posts
On February 27 2022 20:04 Andi_Goldberger wrote: hes actually making cylcones, im not sure about this A couple of Cyclone before transition to Tank, to protect the BC from Corruptors is pretty good. | ||
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Fecalfeast
Canada11355 Posts
That seems like a lot to invest into upgrades when your opponent is making roaches | ||
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Hider
Denmark9391 Posts
On February 27 2022 20:04 Andi_Goldberger wrote: hes actually making cylcones, im not sure about this I would have continued with all-ins. I think as long as Reynor wants to get 80+ drones every time there is a chance to win that way if your execution is good. But then again I've been completely wrong on everything. But it feels to me that Heromarine is like "ah now I can't win with all-ins anymore since Reynor figured it out, but I am not completely sure about whether that's the case. | ||
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sim9999
10 Posts
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Fecalfeast
Canada11355 Posts
On February 27 2022 20:07 sim9999 wrote: it is me or watching numbers are really low ? sub 20K for the biggest tournament for the semis seems really low It's 3am in western NA | ||
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Fecalfeast
Canada11355 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On February 27 2022 20:07 sim9999 wrote: it is me or watching numbers are really low ? sub 20K for the biggest tournament for the semis seems really low That's what happens when the only world champions are zergs. | ||
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tigera6
3401 Posts
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On February 27 2022 20:09 deacon.frost wrote: That's what happens when the only world champions are zergs. SC2 isn't breaking more than 30k these days. It's also obsurdly early for a semi-final, almost GSL time. Also I can't catch a break, I won't even get to see a zerg lose a single map all day ffs | ||
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DBooN
Germany2727 Posts
On February 27 2022 20:12 Nakajin wrote: SC2 isn't breaking more than 30k these days. It's also obsurdly early for a semi-final, almost GSL time. Also I can't catch a break, I won't even get to see a zerg lose a single map all day ffs You will see a Zerg lose on every single map from here on. | ||
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egrimm
Poland1199 Posts
On February 27 2022 20:12 Nakajin wrote: SC2 isn't breaking more than 30k these days. It's also obsurdly early for a semi-final, almost GSL time. Also I can't catch a break, I won't even get to see a zerg lose a single map all day ffs There's gonna be a ZvZ so at least Zerg is gonna lose 3maps | ||
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9391 Posts
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darklycid
3511 Posts
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t5Fab
183 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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tigera6
3401 Posts
On February 27 2022 20:14 Hider wrote: I think this was the first game we saw so far of Katowice where Heromarine didn't play to his strengths. Heromarine is not a good mech-player and his initial BC fared embarrassingly bad. 1 kill really? After that it was effectively gg. I thought HM was about to break Reynor if he warped that BC on top of the Queen on the 3rd, Reynor only had like 3-4 Queens with low energy, and HM still got some Marines and a couple of Helion. | ||
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egrimm
Poland1199 Posts
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Sent.
Poland9204 Posts
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Circumstance
United States11403 Posts
This is why he's Clutch Romiti. | ||
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Fecalfeast
Canada11355 Posts
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EquilasH
Denmark2142 Posts
On February 27 2022 20:18 Fecalfeast wrote: What's the break situation? Is there a set time for the next match or just a quick 5-7mins of ads? Yesterday we just had the 5-7 minute breaks. | ||
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stilt
France2749 Posts
Gg gabe and gratz to the spaghetti boi, back to back final of world championship, that's epic | ||
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Durnuu
13320 Posts
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
But I beleive in the Finish Pheonom, gogo Serral! | ||
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
On February 27 2022 20:18 Fecalfeast wrote: What's the break situation? Is there a set time for the next match or just a quick 5-7mins of ads? if previous years tell us anything, we are getting this match after a short break and then a longer (20-30 min) before the final | ||
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tigera6
3401 Posts
On February 27 2022 20:19 Durnuu wrote: Glad to see the patchzergs still going strong 5 years after the baneling buff They nerfed the banes, but then regreted that and make it up by giving this World Championship the most Zerg-favored map pool in recent years. | ||
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sudete
Singapore3054 Posts
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EquilasH
Denmark2142 Posts
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Cereb
Denmark3388 Posts
Massive kudos to HeroMarine for making it to the semis and putting on such a fight! It's gotta be rough to lose with that lead but it's still a massive achievement getting so far !! The Terran MVP of this tournament! Well done! | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9391 Posts
On February 27 2022 20:15 tigera6 wrote: I thought HM was about to break Reynor if he warped that BC on top of the Queen on the 3rd, Reynor only had like 3-4 Queens with low energy, and HM still got some Marines and a couple of Helion. Rewatching that sequence, I think Heromarine thought the same thing we thought at the time. "Ah weak queens i can do a lot of damage with my marines + medivacs" there. But the issue is that the queens on creep can kite the BC's. In hindsight he should have teleported to the main and he could have assisted back and forth with his marine-medivacs (between the 3rd and main Reynor had a very low drone-count. Its very plausible he could have killed like 10 drones with the BC + marines bringing him into a favorable position. That said, I still think he would have lost the game regardless. Going mech was simply not the correct decision, but appeared like desperation through the following logic: 1. "I can't win in bio-macro games". 2. "I can't win with all-ins anymore". --> "Hence I need to mech". | ||
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EquilasH
Denmark2142 Posts
On February 27 2022 20:22 Cereb wrote: Reynor <3 Very happy to have him in the finals again! Massive kudos to HeroMarine for making it to the semis and putting on such a fight! It's gotta be rough to lose with that lead but it's still a massive achievement getting so far !! The Terran MVP of this tournament! Well done! Yeah, I've been impressed by Gabe pretty much every series he played this tournament. Massive props. | ||
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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Poopi
France12886 Posts
On February 27 2022 20:19 Durnuu wrote: Glad to see the patchzergs still going strong 5 years after the baneling buff Don’t think it’s patch, these top zergs are just built different | ||
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Hider
Denmark9391 Posts
On February 27 2022 20:23 Hider wrote: Rewatching that sequence, I think Heromarine thought the same thing we thought at the time. "Ah weak queens i can do a lot of damage with my marines + medivacs" there. But the issue is that the queens on creep (+ one additional queen supported them) can kite the BC's. In hindsight he should have teleported to the main and he could have assisted back and forth with his marine-medivacs (between the 3rd and main Reynor had a very low drone-count and its very plausbile could have killed like 10 drones with the BC + marines bringing him into a favorable position. That said, I still think he would have lost the game regardless. Going mech was simply not the correct decision, but appeared like desperation through the following logic: 1. "I can't win in bio-macro games". 2. I can't win with all-ins anymore. --> Hence I need to mech. Even after he teleported to the 3rd, I have no idea why he didn't move the BC towards the right side edge between the main and the 3rd. He lost like half the HP retreating back across creep. To me it indicates that HM is not that practiced playing BC opener. And against Reynor you are not gonna win when you play a style you are relatively worse at. | ||
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sim999999
23 Posts
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sim999999
23 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On February 27 2022 20:26 Poopi wrote: Don’t think it’s patch, these top zergs are just built different Sure, the same way 2010 Terrans were simply better  | ||
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Archerylady
277 Posts
On February 27 2022 20:30 sim999999 wrote: I mean its a good thing that there is katowice and the price pool is really great for a 10 years old game with this low viewer count. Sub 20K viewer I wonder how is this even possible I remember viewer counts near 100K 2-3 years ago. Quite a sharp decline. | ||
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sudete
Singapore3054 Posts
On February 27 2022 20:31 sim999999 wrote: also z v z is mostly coin flip anyone can win between rogue, reynor and serral It's pure skill, like what Oz said about PvP years ago | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On February 27 2022 20:33 Archerylady wrote: I remember viewer counts near 100K 2-3 years ago. Quite a sharp decline. I don't honestly, unless we were piggy backing of Blizzcon or Katowice other esport streams. But yeah we lost a good 10k average in the last 2 years. The money vs viewers number is actually insane though, good for us  | ||
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sim999999
23 Posts
But yeah we lost a good 10k average in the last 2 years. The money vs viewers number is actually jnsane though It is actually insane how it is financially possible I dont know. Thanks Appollo :d I would not be surprised if tomorrow ESL be like well sc2 has a good run but now it's the end | ||
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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EquilasH
Denmark2142 Posts
On February 27 2022 20:41 sim999999 wrote: It is actually insane how it is financially possible I dont know. Thanks Appollo :d I would not be surprised if tomorrow ESL be like well sc2 has a good run but now it's the end I wouldn't be surprised if prize pools decrease for SC2 in the future but I doubt we're seeing the death of SC2 just yet. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On February 27 2022 20:37 Nakajin wrote: I don't honestly, unless we were piggy backing of Blizzcon or Katowice other esport streams. But yeah we lost a good 10k average in the last 2 years. The money vs viewers number is actually insane though, good for us To be fair the game is in stagnation if not decline, for the past 2 years, so it was to be expected. | ||
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darklycid
3511 Posts
On February 27 2022 20:41 sim999999 wrote: It is actually insane how it is financially possible I dont know. Thanks Appollo :d I would not be surprised if tomorrow ESL be like well sc2 has a good run but now it's the end I mean current meta + e.g. NA viewer Magnets not performing well + in case if this finals somewhat of a bad time slot, I'm also more often than not losing a bit of interest in tournaments (also many players retired that probably took a fan base sort of with them). | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On February 27 2022 20:41 sim999999 wrote: It is actually insane how it is financially possible I dont know. Thanks Appollo :d I would not be surprised if tomorrow ESL be like well sc2 has a good run but now it's the end We're still guarantee for next year, after that... we'll see Edit: I would still take fewer viewers, than the non-stop"Dead game"/ here's my 20 page essay on how to save Starcraft of the mid-2010 in an heartbeat | ||
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EquilasH
Denmark2142 Posts
Not that I blame the other casters since they seem to be friends with most of the European players. | ||
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Wintex
Norway16838 Posts
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EquilasH
Denmark2142 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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EquilasH
Denmark2142 Posts
On February 27 2022 20:51 Andi_Goldberger wrote: I feel crazy for saying this but I enjoy the roach fest so much more than lurkér viper camping lol 5 games of Viper/Lurker would definitely be frustrating but I don't mind if we get 1 or 2 of those games. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On February 27 2022 20:47 EquilasH wrote: I love that PiG is so unbiased compared to the other casters - at least so far. Not that I blame the other casters since they seem to be friends with most of the European players. It's not hard to be seen as unbiased in this caster selection though. | ||
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DBooN
Germany2727 Posts
On February 27 2022 20:51 Andi_Goldberger wrote: I feel crazy for saying this but I enjoy the roach fest so much more than lurkér viper camping lol Everyone agrees soO was peak ZvZ. | ||
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Poopi
France12886 Posts
On February 27 2022 20:32 deacon.frost wrote: Sure, the same way 2010 Terrans were simply better Didn’t you see Reynor apm? Way more than Maru or HeroMarine | ||
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
absolutely. I was just reminiscing about that year zero match lol | ||
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EquilasH
Denmark2142 Posts
On February 27 2022 20:56 Poopi wrote: Didn’t you see Reynor apm? Way more than Maru or HeroMarine Where do we see APM for these games? I haven't seen it shown on screen yet. | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
soO was peak SC2, I've never seen a player so profoundly inept at playing boring style | ||
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Hider
Denmark9391 Posts
On February 27 2022 20:57 EquilasH wrote: Where do we see APM for these games? I haven't seen it shown on screen yet. Terrans just average like 350 APM while zerg can average 450+APM meaning zergs are at least +20% as good as the terrans. | ||
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EquilasH
Denmark2142 Posts
On February 27 2022 20:58 Hider wrote: Terrans just average like 350 APM while zerg can average 450+APM meaning zergs are at least +20% as good as the terrans. I'm definitely in the camp that Reynor/Serral/Rogue/Dark are all insane players but I don't think you can use APM as an absolute measure of skill. Maybe you were saying that jokingly though. | ||
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
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darklycid
3511 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9391 Posts
On February 27 2022 21:00 EquilasH wrote: I'm definitely in the camp that Reynor/Serral/Rogue/Dark are all insane players but I don't think you can use APM as an absolute measure of skill. Maybe you were saying that jokingly though. I think everyone who understands how APM is calculated should be aware of the sarcasm. | ||
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Archerylady
277 Posts
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Poopi
France12886 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On February 27 2022 21:02 Hider wrote: I think everyone who understands how APM is calculated should be aware of the sarcasm. And yet it seems people missed it by a mile. | ||
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EquilasH
Denmark2142 Posts
On February 27 2022 21:02 Hider wrote: I think everyone who understands how APM is calculated should be aware of the sarcasm. Fair enough. I thought so but answered anyway. That's on me lol. | ||
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darklycid
3511 Posts
On February 27 2022 21:03 deacon.frost wrote: And yet it seems people missed it by a mile. Nah man that is just poopis evil twin writing who is completely serious about this | ||
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darklycid
3511 Posts
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SmoKim
Denmark10305 Posts
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Avicularia
540 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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dysenterymd
1237 Posts
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HolydaKing
21254 Posts
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Steroidbrucie
56 Posts
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darklycid
3511 Posts
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v1p3r52
New Zealand182 Posts
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Tsubbi
Germany7996 Posts
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
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EquilasH
Denmark2142 Posts
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parksonsc
175 Posts
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Acrofales
Spain18028 Posts
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DarkGamer
Germany323 Posts
On February 27 2022 21:14 v1p3r52 wrote: man that that just looked like bad play from rouge This is how it looks if rogue doesnt get in the head of his opponent and isnt mechanical superior. Edit: i have to admit that not many players match rogues mechanics. | ||
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Poopi
France12886 Posts
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Oukka
Finland1683 Posts
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EquilasH
Denmark2142 Posts
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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darklycid
3511 Posts
On February 27 2022 21:17 Poopi wrote: I really hope Serral wins it all Same, then we got a nice goat trifecta of serral rogue and maru and everyone can pick his personal fav as his goat and argue with the others | ||
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stilt
France2749 Posts
That said, I thought dark would beat reynor | ||
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Sent.
Poland9204 Posts
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FuRong
New Zealand3089 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On February 27 2022 21:19 darklycid wrote: Same, then we got a nice goat trifecta of serral rogue and maru and everyone can pick his personal fav as his goat and argue with the others Protoss where? | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
Such a pleasure to see Joona so on point with reads and defenses. Now go and lift the trophy you have been chasing for so long, champ! Also, I won't be sad when Rogue goes to the army while Trap and Zest will be terrible losses. | ||
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EquilasH
Denmark2142 Posts
The discussion of GOAT doesn't have to include all 3 races. Just like how the discussion of the GOAT in Brood War was mostly between Nada and Flash. | ||
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dysenterymd
1237 Posts
On February 27 2022 21:22 Xain0n wrote: Serral has always beaten Rogue offline, it's 4-0 in series with this. Such a pleasure to see Joona so on point with reads and defenses. Now go and lift the trophy you have been chasing for so long, champ! Also, I won't be sad when Rogue goes to the army while Trap and Zest will be terrible losses. Any top player is a horrible loss at the point even the ones I don't like. It's way too thin at the highest level now. | ||
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darklycid
3511 Posts
What is a protoss? | ||
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darklycid
3511 Posts
On February 27 2022 21:24 dysenterymd wrote: Any top player is a horrible loss at the point even the ones I don't like. It's way too thin at the highest level now. Always made when ppl dislike serral, and then this nab against rogue no wonder you always get into beef with ppl :D | ||
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Legan
Finland422 Posts
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Acrofales
Spain18028 Posts
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nojok
France15845 Posts
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DarkGamer
Germany323 Posts
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Cereb
Denmark3388 Posts
Also, not gonna lie, having followed SC2 since its release...I'm a bit happy to have a final without any Koreans | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On February 27 2022 21:26 darklycid wrote: Always made when ppl dislike serral, and then this nab against rogue no wonder you always get into beef with ppl :D It's no secret that I like Serral the most and Rogue the least out of all the top Zerg players. Zerg is and will be in good hands, unlike Protoss. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9204 Posts
On February 27 2022 21:20 Sent. wrote: Liquipedia says the final starts at 14:15, is that correct? Attention, it's not!!! | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
I think it's time to bump the Sad Zealot club. | ||
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Legan
Finland422 Posts
On February 27 2022 21:31 nojok wrote: Speaking of military, Serral has to do it too at some point too, or did he already do it? He has not done it yet. The last point he can do it is when he is 28 years old( 2026). However, there different health categories that affect this and there is some other options like civil service instead of military. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18028 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
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sim999999
23 Posts
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Zambrah
United States7327 Posts
Someone who throws objects professionally | ||
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Poopi
France12886 Posts
On February 27 2022 21:32 Cereb wrote: Serral's run is absolutely wild! I don't recall such a dominant run towards any tournament final. Also, not gonna lie, having followed SC2 since its release...I'm a bit happy to have a final without any Koreans Meh | ||
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
On February 27 2022 21:36 Legan wrote: He has not done it yet. The last point he can do it is when he is 28 years old( 2026). However, there different health categories that affect this and there is some other options like civil service instead of military. Finnish has to do military service just like Korean? I don't know about this before. | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
Anyway, it should be a pretty hype match! | ||
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Legan
Finland422 Posts
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Legan
Finland422 Posts
On February 27 2022 21:38 swarminfestor wrote: Finnish has to do military service just like Korean? I don't know about this before. Yes. 6,9,or 12 months in military or 12 months in civil service. | ||
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EquilasH
Denmark2142 Posts
On February 27 2022 21:38 swarminfestor wrote: Finnish has to do military service just like Korean? I don't know about this before. The 3 countries that come to my mind for mandatory military service for male citizens are Switzerland, Finland and South Korea. I do believe it's much shorter in both Finland and Switzerland compared to SK. | ||
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
On February 27 2022 21:42 EquilasH wrote: The 3 countries that come to my mind for obligatory military service for male citizens are Switzerland, Finland and South Korea. I do believe it's much shorter in both Finland and Switzerland compared to SK. I see. At least Serral is younger, can do a lot things in the span of few years ahead. Looking at this, I am getting sad that Rogue is going to military service. Maru only has a Dark to be his practice partner. | ||
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HolydaKing
21254 Posts
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Poopi
France12886 Posts
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EquilasH
Denmark2142 Posts
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tommey.liang
United States363 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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Sent.
Poland9204 Posts
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darklycid
3511 Posts
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HolydaKing
21254 Posts
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Poopi
France12886 Posts
Perfect zerg gonna destroy Reynor | ||
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vanskillz
2 Posts
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SmoKim
Denmark10305 Posts
On February 27 2022 21:32 Cereb wrote: Serral's run is absolutely wild! I don't recall such a dominant run towards any tournament final. Also, not gonna lie, having followed SC2 since its release...I'm a bit happy to have a final without any Koreans Its kinda wild that is finally happened ^_^ Also think Serral vs Reynor is the only ZvZ that i was ever hyped for. Win-Win situation. Next year MaxPax win! | ||
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Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
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EquilasH
Denmark2142 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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Poopi
France12886 Posts
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DBooN
Germany2727 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
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EquilasH
Denmark2142 Posts
On February 27 2022 22:03 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Hmm. Basically missed the entire end of the tournament. Not much point in just catching the final few games. Is it worth watching the VoDs? I missed the first couple of games as well but I'd definitely watch the Heromarine vs Reynor series if I were you. Rogue vs Serral wasn't as good of a series though. | ||
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FCHK
202 Posts
On February 27 2022 22:05 DBooN wrote: Sending the banes on the drones seems like a pretty bad decision, though idk if it made a difference. Blowing up the spine crawlers first would be better, but Reynor scouted the banelings morphing in time | ||
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EquilasH
Denmark2142 Posts
On February 27 2022 22:07 FCHK wrote: Blowing up the spine crawlers first would be better, but Reynor scouted the banelings morphing in time Reynor blocked the banes for so long that I still don't think Serral could've broken through - still, the better decision was probably blowing up the spines. | ||
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Supter
France382 Posts
On February 27 2022 22:03 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Hmm. Basically missed the entire end of the tournament. Not much point in just catching the final few games. Is it worth watching the VoDs? HeroMarine vs Solar and to a certain extent HM vs Reynor were fantastic series | ||
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TentativePanda
United States800 Posts
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Poopi
France12886 Posts
On February 27 2022 22:11 TentativePanda wrote: Ok why does ZG get every finals? It’s 1) unfair and 2) kind of weird, because in my opinion… she’s not the best let’s put it that way She has been very good this IEM And not too biased | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On February 27 2022 22:11 TentativePanda wrote: Ok why does ZG get every finals? It’s 1) unfair and 2) kind of weird, because in my opinion… she’s not the best let’s put it that way She get most of them but she's great imo! Plus she has caster seniority except for Rotti but he dosen't want to cast the final | ||
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
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EquilasH
Denmark2142 Posts
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Poopi
France12886 Posts
Gogo Serral still | ||
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NotSoHappy
445 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
On February 27 2022 22:11 TentativePanda wrote: Ok why does ZG get every finals? It’s 1) unfair and 2) kind of weird, because in my opinion… she’s not the best let’s put it that way She is okay, in my opinion. There is anther caster whom I dont like him to get the job for the final matches, but luckily he is not there. | ||
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tommey.liang
United States363 Posts
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EquilasH
Denmark2142 Posts
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tommey.liang
United States363 Posts
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
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NotSoHappy
445 Posts
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
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Poopi
France12886 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
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tommey.liang
United States363 Posts
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HolydaKing
21254 Posts
come back old serral, you were the one who loved to make comebacks as well. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18028 Posts
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Legan
Finland422 Posts
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stilt
France2749 Posts
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EquilasH
Denmark2142 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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Sent.
Poland9204 Posts
On February 27 2022 22:33 Andi_Goldberger wrote: how did the map end? had to go afk for a sec Lurkers went online | ||
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EquilasH
Denmark2142 Posts
On February 27 2022 22:33 Andi_Goldberger wrote: how did the map end? had to go afk for a sec Reynor barely got around 12 Lurkers out with both upgrades (Serral sniped both Lurker Dens around .5 sec and 2 sec after upgrades finished) - then Reynor proceeded to defend Serral's last attack with the Lurkers. | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
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HolydaKing
21254 Posts
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
On February 27 2022 22:41 Pandain wrote: This is GG for reynor - good try serral omg yessss nvm GAME 7 LETS GO | ||
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
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Poopi
France12886 Posts
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Sent.
Poland9204 Posts
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EquilasH
Denmark2142 Posts
On February 27 2022 22:43 Pandain wrote: one game for $140K!! $95k difference between 1st and 2nd but that's still massive. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
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tommey.liang
United States363 Posts
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Azzur
Australia6259 Posts
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catplanetcatplanet
3830 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33421 Posts
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Garnet
Vietnam9022 Posts
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Cereb
Denmark3388 Posts
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Die4Ever
United States17676 Posts
On February 27 2022 22:45 Garnet wrote: 27k viewers? oops... Yeah that hurts lol, but understandable | ||
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Sent.
Poland9204 Posts
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darklycid
3511 Posts
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EquilasH
Denmark2142 Posts
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tommey.liang
United States363 Posts
Most I’ve seen in a while. | ||
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tommey.liang
United States363 Posts
On February 27 2022 22:49 EquilasH wrote: I've noticed Reynor has been adding on the 38th-45th drones a bit earlier in almost every ZvZ he's played at Katowice - could be one of the reasons he's been doing so well? Yeah Reynor is known to mass drone pretty quickly. | ||
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DBooN
Germany2727 Posts
On February 27 2022 22:46 darklycid wrote: Both players failing the MVP test of being a baller in the final game. Proving again they can never be the goat. | ||
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HolydaKing
21254 Posts
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EquilasH
Denmark2142 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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HolydaKing
21254 Posts
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EquilasH
Denmark2142 Posts
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DBooN
Germany2727 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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HolydaKing
21254 Posts
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
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Zambrah
United States7327 Posts
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
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catplanetcatplanet
3830 Posts
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atrox_
United Kingdom1710 Posts
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tommey.liang
United States363 Posts
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Sent.
Poland9204 Posts
Ahh, finally started a Hydra Den | ||
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SmoKim
Denmark10305 Posts
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EquilasH
Denmark2142 Posts
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DBooN
Germany2727 Posts
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yht9657
1810 Posts
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DBooN
Germany2727 Posts
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HolydaKing
21254 Posts
or maybe not? hard to say. serral is so favored army wise but idk. | ||
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catplanetcatplanet
3830 Posts
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
On February 27 2022 23:00 Xain0n wrote: Worst crash in Sc2's history? Gumiho vs Booth still wins that. | ||
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HolydaKing
21254 Posts
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NotSoHappy
445 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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EquilasH
Denmark2142 Posts
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DBooN
Germany2727 Posts
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catplanetcatplanet
3830 Posts
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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Sent.
Poland9204 Posts
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
Such a final! | ||
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stilt
France2749 Posts
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Mozdk
Denmark6989 Posts
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
Really impressed with Reynor this tourney, sad he couldn't repeat. But insane run by Serral, he seemed completely unchallenged until the finals. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25538 Posts
Games of the tournament for those of us looking to binge some VoDs? | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
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feebas
Finland268 Posts
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HolydaKing
21254 Posts
On February 27 2022 23:09 Pandain wrote: Serral undisputed best player atm. Unstoppable vP, crushed Maru 3-1, and just took down all the other top zergs in Dark, Rogue, Reynor Yeah that's for sure. | ||
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tigera6
3401 Posts
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Cereb
Denmark3388 Posts
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catplanetcatplanet
3830 Posts
On February 27 2022 23:08 WombaT wrote: Games of the tournament for those of us looking to binge some VoDs? I didn't watch everything but hard to imagine there was anything significantly more entertaining than spirit vs nice game 5 | ||
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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HeroSandro
531 Posts
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
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Paukum
Norway60 Posts
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Husyelt
United States834 Posts
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patermatrix
64 Posts
On February 27 2022 23:09 Pandain wrote: Serral undisputed best player atm. Unstoppable vP, crushed Maru 3-1, and just took down all the other top zergs in Dark, Rogue, Reynor It's such an insane run, he beat all his strongest contenders in a row, offline. | ||
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EquilasH
Denmark2142 Posts
On February 27 2022 23:08 WombaT wrote: What a tournament, hell of a run from Serral. Swept a group with Dark, 3-1 Maru and sweeping Rogue and bringing it home against a Reynor who’s been on fire Games of the tournament for those of us looking to binge some VoDs? Spirit vs Nice (whole series). Dark vs Reynor - but I think you were in the LR thread when that happened. Overall most games were great yesterday apart from Trap vs Dark and Ryung vs Rogue. Dream vs Maru game 2 (and one of the other games but forgot which). Reynor vs Maru in group D. There were other good games but those are the first that come to mind. Edit: Most of the games in group C were also very entertaining. | ||
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Poopi
France12886 Posts
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
On February 27 2022 23:11 Husyelt wrote: Damnit. Only caught the last two games. Was a Serral v Rogue worth it despite the score? Last game was the best. Not sure rest worth rewatch except for fact its global grand finals | ||
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patermatrix
64 Posts
On February 27 2022 23:12 EquilasH wrote: Spirit vs Nice (whole series). Dark vs Reynor - but I think you were in the LR thread when that happened. Overall most games were great yesterday apart from Trap vs Dark and Ryung vs Rogue. Dream vs Maru game 2 (and one of the other games but forgot which). Reynor vs Maru in group D. There were other good games but those are the first that come to mind. Both Heromarine series were great! | ||
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tigera6
3401 Posts
On February 27 2022 23:11 Husyelt wrote: Damnit. Only caught the last two games. Was a Serral v Rogue worth it despite the score? Nah, it was a straight swipe by Serral. | ||
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Rob-Zero
Germany459 Posts
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EquilasH
Denmark2142 Posts
Yeah for sure - that's why I said most games yesterday were great, there are too many to mention. Edit: I probably still should've specified the Solar vs HM series though because it was insane. | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
On February 27 2022 23:12 EquilasH wrote: Spirit vs Nice (whole series). Dark vs Reynor - but I think you were in the LR thread when that happened. Overall most games were great yesterday apart from Trap vs Dark and Ryung vs Rogue. Dream vs Maru game 2 (and one of the other games but forgot which). Reynor vs Maru in group D. There were other good games but those are the first that come to mind. Edit: Most of the games in group C were also very entertaining. + Heromarine solar. Games 2-5 were all really good, especially games 3 and 4. | ||
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stilt
France2749 Posts
The 2nd game of Solar/hm was insane Edit : that was the third | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25538 Posts
On February 27 2022 23:10 catplanetcatplanet wrote: I didn't watch everything but hard to imagine there was anything significantly more entertaining than spirit vs nice game 5 I’ve watched that, absolute classic of the clown fiesta genre, would highly recommend to others! Any other recommendations from folks, especially in the clown fiesta genre much appreciated | ||
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PartyBiscuit
Canada4525 Posts
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Poopi
France12886 Posts
On February 27 2022 23:14 Xain0n wrote: From now on when I'll look at Serral I'll see a GOAT. Top 3-4 for sure now | ||
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JohnMatrix
France1358 Posts
GOAT | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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Acrofales
Spain18028 Posts
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
I think at least 4, but him vs. innovation would be super interesting becuase Inno never got a world championship. I think him and inno are tied for 3 - but I could see arguments for either. Rogue and Maru still the two GOATS and roughly tied with each other imo. But the absolutely phenomenal thing is Rogue, Maru, and Serral are all still making history. This conversation isn't over yet and any of them could have incredible runs in the future that continue to shift the discussion. | ||
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HolydaKing
21254 Posts
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YamiRi
152 Posts
now no one will doubt him definitely the best non-korean player ever touched this game (and the greatest of all time for me personally) | ||
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tigera6
3401 Posts
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Acrofales
Spain18028 Posts
On February 27 2022 23:16 Pandain wrote: Not to be that guy but I think that lag spike was super important for Serral. Reynor was starting to get a ton of momentum back in that game and was playing such a fast game -but that pause let Serral think for a minute Meh, as the lag spike happened, Serral was already in the process of killing the cluster of roaches. I didn't see much mentality change between before and after. | ||
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Garnet
Vietnam9022 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
On February 27 2022 23:18 tigera6 wrote: Great tournament, although I have wonder why the hell the schedule was so stacked in the first 3 days, like 12hrs+ of stream everyday, and this last day was only 5hrs. If you have time to spend, spread things out more evenly so that more fans can watch it live. because right after this there is the CSGO final in the arena. sc2 only has this timespot and they want it in the arena | ||
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dubRa
2165 Posts
On February 27 2022 23:18 tigera6 wrote: Great tournament, although I have wonder why the hell the schedule was so stacked in the first 3 days, like 12hrs+ of stream everyday, and this last day was only 5hrs. If you have time to spend, spread things out more evenly so that more fans can watch it live. I agree very much. I missed the semis | ||
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HolydaKing
21254 Posts
On February 27 2022 23:18 YamiRi wrote: I believe IEM is the only title left that he hasn't won before now no one will doubt him definitely the best non-korean player ever touched this game (and the greatest of all time for me personally) Greatest of all time is just hard to get when you started being dominant so late. But he's definitely greatest of LOTV imo. | ||
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DBooN
Germany2727 Posts
On February 27 2022 23:17 Pandain wrote: I think at least 4, but him vs. innovation would be super interesting becuase Inno never got a world championship. I think him and inno are tied for 3 - but I could see arguments for either. Rogue and Maru still the two GOATS and roughly tied with each other imo. But the absolutely phenomenal thing is Rogue, Maru, and Serral are all still making history. This conversation isn't over yet and any of them could have incredible runs in the future that continue to shift the discussion. Inno played in an insanely more competetive era than those other 3. He's easily the GOAT. | ||
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EquilasH
Denmark2142 Posts
On February 27 2022 23:18 tigera6 wrote: Great tournament, although I have wonder why the hell the schedule was so stacked in the first 3 days, like 12hrs+ of stream everyday, and this last day was only 5hrs. If you have time to spend, spread things out more evenly so that more fans can watch it live. Definitely, but I think part of it was that it's Sunday. From the big LAN's I've attended they usually end very early on Sundays. | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25538 Posts
On February 27 2022 23:11 patermatrix wrote: It's such an insane run, he beat all his strongest contenders in a row, offline. Stakes slightly less high in groups, but close to the perfect dominant run. It’s probably as close as we’ll get to a playoff bracket where one of the top 5 has to go through all 4 of the rest | ||
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tigera6
3401 Posts
On February 27 2022 23:19 Andi_Goldberger wrote: because right after this there is the CSGO final in the arena. sc2 only has this timespot and they want it in the arena Well, thats THEIR scheduling problem, has nothing to do with the fans or the players. And to be clear, I dont mind the short 5hrs today, I was talking about the 12hrs+ on all the other days. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On February 27 2022 23:17 Pandain wrote: I think at least 4, but him vs. innovation would be super interesting becuase Inno never got a world championship. I think him and inno are tied for 3 - but I could see arguments for either. Rogue and Maru still the two GOATS and roughly tied with each other imo. But the absolutely phenomenal thing is Rogue, Maru, and Serral are all still making history. This conversation isn't over yet and any of them could have incredible runs in the future that continue to shift the discussion. Let's just say Serral has a real shot at the title now, it depends on how you value results; for me, now, he's the GOAT along with Maru who has had a longer career but lacks a World Championship. | ||
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Antithesis
Germany1191 Posts
IEM Katowice 2022 was a superb tournament experience. Great players, great commentators, great production, great vibe overall. Awesome stuff. Thanks to everyone involved! | ||
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Archerylady
277 Posts
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tommey.liang
United States363 Posts
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Poopi
France12886 Posts
On February 27 2022 23:16 Pandain wrote: Not to be that guy but I think that lag spike was super important for Serral. Reynor was starting to get a ton of momentum back in that game and was playing such a fast game -but that pause let Serral think for a minute Yeah Serral having the better unit comp that pause allowed him to think about what to do next not to die etc. You could see Reynor was super stressed out biting his finger :/ | ||
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parksonsc
175 Posts
On February 27 2022 23:19 DBooN wrote: Inno played in an insanely more competetive era than those other 3. He's easily the GOAT. Yes, to me (and i'm sure to many others) Inno is the GOAT, given how he dominated for so long, during the peak era. There were a lot of tournament contenders at that time and the game got constantly balanced to prevent OP things so multiple championships were a more accurate representation of skills (rather than race). Now we only have Zerg champions, so in order to win championships you only need to be like the best out of 3-4 players. | ||
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NotSoHappy
445 Posts
let serral fanbois run loose for once | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25538 Posts
On February 27 2022 23:19 DBooN wrote: Inno played in an insanely more competetive era than those other 3. He's easily the GOAT. Inno played a good chunk of that era to be fair. I wouldn’t really count it against him though, it was an open secret his motivation had long departed. One thing that maybe would is it feels like Inno made hay with stellar mechanics and when the combo of his shape dropped and the rest of the scene’s level rose, he was less competitive. Serral and Rogue, wouldn’t say they’re necessarily better but they certainly feel more complete packages as players. Between eras both of the game state itself and the changes in the scene’s structures, outside of a Wayne Gretsky type outlier I tend to think one can only be in the conversation as one of the greatest, and all those names are definitely in that conversation | ||
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Husyelt
United States834 Posts
Probably the best tournament of all time imo, ridiculously entertaining and close matches. | ||
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Poopi
France12886 Posts
On February 27 2022 23:30 parksonsc wrote: Yes, to me (and i'm sure to many others) Inno is the GOAT, given how he dominated for so long, during the peak era. There were a lot of tournament contenders at that time and the game got constantly balanced to prevent OP things so multiple championships were a more accurate representation of skills (rather than race). Now we only have Zerg champions, so in order to win championships you only need to be like the best out of 3-4 players. 1st Maru 2nd INno 3rd Rogue and finally 4th Serral This era is barely competitive and zerg has been so dominant Rogue and Serral resume aren’t comparable to kespa era | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On February 27 2022 23:32 NotSoHappy wrote: serral just won and already serral haters swarmed the thread :d let serral fanbois run loose for once I see no hate this time, to be honest. The real haters aren't posting right now. | ||
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sim9999
10 Posts
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tommey.liang
United States363 Posts
On February 27 2022 23:35 Xain0n wrote: I see no hate this time, to be honest. The real haters aren't posting right now. This. All balanced and valid viewpoints. | ||
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DBooN
Germany2727 Posts
On February 27 2022 23:35 Poopi wrote: 1st Maru 2nd INno 3rd Rogue and finally 4th Serral This era is barely competitive and zerg has been so dominant Rogue and Serral resume aren’t comparable to kespa era Marus successes, aside from OSL and proleague were also after the Kespa era though. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33421 Posts
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Die4Ever
United States17676 Posts
On February 27 2022 23:37 DBooN wrote: Marus successes, aside from OSL and proleague were also after the Kespa era though. I mean, those were pretty important lol, also SSL | ||
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tigera6
3401 Posts
On February 27 2022 23:38 Waxangel wrote: Good to see IEM Katowice finally break its finals curse. First actually good one in what seems like forever (soO winning doesn't count because that was just a good personal story; the games were bad) No Rogue and no Protoss have a lot to do with that, sadly its still a ZvZ. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On February 27 2022 23:38 Waxangel wrote: Good to see IEM Katowice finally break its finals curse. First actually good one in what seems like forever (soO winning doesn't count because that was just a good personal story; the games were bad) Serral vs Reynor never disappoints | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25538 Posts
On February 27 2022 23:38 Waxangel wrote: Good to see IEM Katowice finally break its finals curse. First actually good one in what seems like forever (soO winning doesn't count because that was just a good personal story; the games were bad) A PvZ finals was bad? What have you been smoking today Wax? | ||
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DBooN
Germany2727 Posts
On February 27 2022 23:39 Die4Ever wrote: I mean, those were pretty important lol, also SSL I forgot that SSL, yeah, but one individual title in 2013 and one in 2015 is a bit thin for a GOAT contender. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25538 Posts
On February 27 2022 23:40 tigera6 wrote: No Rogue and no Protoss have a lot to do with that, sadly its still a ZvZ. ZvZ is a good matchup, I imagine I’m not alone in that it’s the sheer amount of it in the late stages of tournaments that is grating. Thank god Protoss bowed out early tbh. I mean Serral didn’t even get to play his best matchup in playoffs and I’m quite happy with that state of affairs. | ||
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Azhrak
Finland1196 Posts
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On February 27 2022 23:43 WombaT wrote: ZvZ is a good matchup, I imagine I’m not alone in that it’s the sheer amount of it in the late stages of tournaments that is grating. Thank god Protoss bowed out early tbh. I mean Serral didn’t even get to play his best matchup in playoffs and I’m quite happy with that state of affairs. Unfortunately, good maps for ZvZ seem to be terrible maps for everything else. Now that mutalisks aren't that strong and silly allins are less prevalent, ZvZ looks like a great matchup once more; I'd willingly sacrifice that for a more balanced game overall, in any of case. | ||
Mizenhauer
United States1880 Posts
On February 27 2022 23:41 WombaT wrote: A PvZ finals was bad? What have you been smoking today Wax? PvZ has always been a mess. It's arguably been the worst matchup at every stage of sc2 wol:archon nonsense vs bl/infestor and 2 base timings vs roaches hots: blink era into the disaster that was 2015... +2 blink/+3 blink, immortal and templar vs roaches or sometimes ultra infestor ling lotv: ling bane (2016) into ling bane hydra (2017) into zergs realizing how to win late game (also 17/18) and protoss dissapearing (poor stats) | ||
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tigera6
3401 Posts
On February 27 2022 23:43 WombaT wrote: ZvZ is a good matchup, I imagine I’m not alone in that it’s the sheer amount of it in the late stages of tournaments that is grating. Thank god Protoss bowed out early tbh. I mean Serral didn’t even get to play his best matchup in playoffs and I’m quite happy with that state of affairs. The matchup itself isnt bad, comparing to PvZ and PvP, to me. My sentiment was on how things end almost exactly a we predicted before the tournament, with 5 Zerg in top 8, and we could have top 4 full of Zerg if Solar didnt forget his bane speed upgrade. Outside of Zerg players, Zest and Trap are not doing much, Clem is even in worse shape, and Maru just being Maru in the negative way. On top of that, we got one of the most favorable Zerg map pool in years for a Wolrd Championship. So yeah, a ZvZ final is the best we can get. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On February 27 2022 23:55 Mizenhauer wrote: PvZ has always been a mess. It's arguably been the worst matchup at every stage of sc2 wol:archon nonsense vs bl/infestor and 2 base timings vs roaches hots: blink era into the disaster that was 2015... +2 blink/+3 blink, immortal and templar vs roaches or sometimes ultra infestor ling lotv: ling bane (2016) into ling bane hydra (2017) into zergs realizing how to win late game (also 17/18) and protoss dissapearing (poor stats) PvZ was good for a while in 2018 or at least much better than it was both before and after in LoTV; Serral-Stats at GSL vs the World was amazing, for example. | ||
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Oukka
Finland1683 Posts
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darklycid
3511 Posts
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SmoKim
Denmark10305 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
On February 27 2022 23:59 Xain0n wrote: PvZ was good for a while in 2018 or at least much better than it was both before and after in LoTV; Serral-Stats at GSL vs the World was amazing, for example. lets not forget the hatchery tech zergling drop meta and the turbo imba nydus meta :D | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
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Poopi
France12886 Posts
On February 28 2022 00:39 travis wrote: Kinda funny, I don't think the question of GOAT will ever have a clear answer in sc2. It can’t but there can be no such answer for other sports too. The closest thing we got to a consensus is in basketball with Michael Jordan (among popular sports I know of) but even that is not 100% agreed on and the different times make it a hard comparison. Still a fun discussion among fans as long as it stays in good faith / mood | ||
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pandorasheep
73 Posts
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TheLordofAwesome
Korea (South)2655 Posts
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TossHeroes
281 Posts
Undisputed Goat of sc2 along side with rogue I’m just having a nice chuckle at all the fanboys desperately trying g to keep Maru relevant in the discussion when he is a clear distant 4th behind inno | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
Serral $1,147,320 Rogue $1,033,981 Maru $1,006,779 So Serral with a comfortable lead now that will probably last until next Katowice | ||
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Husyelt
United States834 Posts
On February 28 2022 00:39 travis wrote: Kinda funny, I don't think the question of GOAT will ever have a clear answer in sc2. It’s Maru/Serral/Rogue, but their accomplishments and skills are all varied enough that it’s hard to compare. Innovation and MVP and Life also are relatively close behind. I don’t mind anyone claiming Rogue the goat or Maru or whoever, they all are a step above the majority of their peers. | ||
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium4012 Posts
but holy shit Big Gabe. What a baller. What an amazing run. So many fake arguments were proven wrong this weekend. I'm still happy Rogue went far, and I'm actually surprised Serral took that series 3-0. Anyway, offline SC2 is fantastic. I missed the emotions on stage, they were so awesome. | ||
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Xitah
49 Posts
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Poopi
France12886 Posts
On February 28 2022 03:57 Xitah wrote: One thing people forget is that good players push each other forward. That has been the reason Korea has been dominant for so long and also the reason why suddenly EU is doing so much better. Serral is definitely in the talks for the GOAT and soon it won't be just a twitch meme to say EU>KR. Isn't that bound to happen eventually though? EU is the only region that still has some fresh blood, although not that many. Korea on the other hand has virtually zero new blood, the ladder is ghostown there, their "old" guard are retiring one by one because of military service. For now KR is still superior if we take top 16 vs top 16, as shown this iEM with only 3 foreigners making it out of groups, but at the very top everyone is around the same level between EU and KR. But as time goes on there just won't be a korean scene in sc2 :/ | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24206 Posts
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HeroSandro
531 Posts
On February 28 2022 04:00 Poopi wrote: Isn't that bound to happen eventually though? EU is the only region that still has some fresh blood, although not that many. Korea on the other hand has virtually zero new blood, the ladder is ghostown there, their "old" guard are retiring one by one because of military service. For now KR is still superior if we take top 16 vs top 16, as shown this iEM with only 3 foreigners making it out of groups, but at the very top everyone is around the same level between EU and KR. But as time goes on there just won't be a korean scene in sc2 :/ Korean new blood is the veterans voming back from the army | ||
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Topin
Peru10081 Posts
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[PkF] Wire
France24206 Posts
On February 28 2022 04:26 HeroSandro wrote: Korean new blood is the veterans voming back from the army this can't go on forever though, so I think he's right, if we go on like that, KR scene will wither and end up disappearing in the long run ; the game could still go in the EU / NA scene though. | ||
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Poopi
France12886 Posts
On February 28 2022 04:28 [PkF] Wire wrote: this can't go on forever though, so I think he's right, if we go on like that, KR scene will wither and end up disappearing in the long run ; the game could still go in the EU / NA scene though. These segments during breaks with Rogue, Zest and Trap being like "so yeah this is my last (international or just last) tournament" made me so emotional I am glad I was able to see some of these legends irl at least once | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25538 Posts
On February 28 2022 04:28 [PkF] Wire wrote: this can't go on forever though, so I think he's right, if we go on like that, KR scene will wither and end up disappearing in the long run ; the game could still go in the EU / NA scene though. Nobody has quite come back at their absolute peak, for whatever reason. The only player who has/got better is Zoun, and he’s atypical in that he took it early I think it’s Zoun who did that, Dream too. If I’m talking out of my arse let me know. Even in a scenario where every military returnee came back at 100%, Korea would still eventually wither through non-military retirements if some sort of pipeline to sustainability. They had the structure in the eSF/KeSPA eras, such a strong backbone that it was enough to support that scene for years after they weren’t a factor, but it’s pretty clear something else is needed. Conversely, although controversial the current WCS system is, if nothing else a great structure for the European scene and for players to develop. For whatever reason it hasn’t had the same galvanising effect on NA, but I don’t think there’s a one-size-fits-all system that’s going to dovetail neatly with the various regional scenes. | ||
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Mizenhauer
United States1880 Posts
On February 28 2022 00:26 darklycid wrote: Still don't understand why ppl hate the +2 blink PvZ one of the few times where I as a toss actually felt I could go out on the map without being fully committed people hated it because it rolled zerg. you could commit to +2 blink attack while taking a nexus behind it. if the zerg somehow survived with roach/ling, the p would just be making immortals and high templars and end the game a few minutes later | ||
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darklycid
3511 Posts
On February 28 2022 06:19 Mizenhauer wrote: people hated it because it rolled zerg. you could commit to +2 blink attack while taking a nexus behind it. if the zerg somehow survived with roach/ling, the p would just be making immortals and high templars and end the game a few minutes later If i look at tournament winrates it doesn't look too bad, don't think you can saz it rolled zerg, the last gsl of 2015 was a tvz finals e.g. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25538 Posts
On February 28 2022 06:19 Mizenhauer wrote: people hated it because it rolled zerg. you could commit to +2 blink attack while taking a nexus behind it. if the zerg somehow survived with roach/ling, the p would just be making immortals and high templars and end the game a few minutes later Aside from the first few times where the sheer quality of blink micro was impressive, the lack of counterplay was a really huge problem for me. If the opponent can’t really do anything but rely on your execution being sub-optimal, there’s only so long it’s fun to watch the execution. See also the Soul TrainTM and those cannon/battery rushes into Immortal/Prism. Parting was a god at those, and we saw how good he was by other players botching those pushes, but when he nailed it I usually felt there was literally nothing a Zerg could actually do once the push actually hit full flow Also as you say how difficult it was to pick the difference between ‘hey I’m here to poke and make a third’ and ‘hello there I am going to kill you’. | ||
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Poopi
France12886 Posts
Sure, uThermal and Kelazhur punched above their weights a few times, but even Maru could not make it work as well as ByuN who was the only terran able to beat any terran (he did it to TY iirc at BlizzCon) and zerg (or at least get into good position / take several maps). So even though only one guy was truly making the unit / build not counterable, the opponent could not really do much when it was versus ByuN or was forced to fall too far behind (like Dark in the last game iirc) | ||
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EquilasH
Denmark2142 Posts
On February 28 2022 02:34 Husyelt wrote: It’s Maru/Serral/Rogue, but their accomplishments and skills are all varied enough that it’s hard to compare. Innovation and MVP and Life also are relatively close behind. I don’t mind anyone claiming Rogue the goat or Maru or whoever, they all are a step above the majority of their peers. Since there's actually something to discuss I'm not gonna claim anyone as GOAT of SC2. Still I think Innovation should definitely be in the same category as Maru/Serral/Rogue. The only reason I'd leave Life and MVP out of that group is because they weren't active for long enough. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25538 Posts
On February 28 2022 07:21 EquilasH wrote: Since there's actually something to discuss I'm not gonna claim anyone as GOAT of SC2. Still I think Innovation should definitely be in the same category as Maru/Serral/Rogue. The only reason I'd leave Life and MVP out of that group is because they weren't active for long enough. I think Mvp makes it into the conversation because he kind of laid the blueprint for Terran play, and he was the outright best player in the world for a time. Some on the GOAT list make it in for me for being one of the world’s best for years anyway, but I think being the outright best for even a short time is worth points. In an RTS the guys who figured out and fleshed out how to play the game sometimes can get left out in comparison to those that came later with better execution and building on the knowledge. Finally for greatness points his latter results, that last Code S run, memorably going toe to toe with Inno in TvT while injuries had really impacted play etc speak to the intangible elements of greatness. | ||
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darklycid
3511 Posts
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EquilasH
Denmark2142 Posts
On February 28 2022 07:27 WombaT wrote: I think Mvp makes it into the conversation because he kind of laid the blueprint for Terran play, and he was the outright best player in the world for a time. Some on the GOAT list make it in for me for being one of the world’s best for years anyway, but I think being the outright best for even a short time is worth points. In an RTS the guys who figured out and fleshed out how to play the game sometimes can get left out in comparison to those that came later with better execution and building on the knowledge. Finally for greatness points his latter results, that last Code S run, memorably going toe to toe with Inno in TvT while injuries had really impacted play etc speak to the intangible elements of greatness. Don't get me wrong, I think he was an amazing player and innovator. In some ways it's kind of unfair of me leaving him out of the conversation due to injuries (I didn't even remember that's why he retired) but to me you have to be active for longer to be in contention for the title of GOAT. With that said, I think he was the most notable player of his era. | ||
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Moonerz
United States446 Posts
On February 28 2022 06:08 WombaT wrote: Nobody has quite come back at their absolute peak, for whatever reason. The only player who has/got better is Zoun, and he’s atypical in that he took it early I think it’s Zoun who did that, Dream too. If I’m talking out of my arse let me know. Even in a scenario where every military returnee came back at 100%, Korea would still eventually wither through non-military retirements if some sort of pipeline to sustainability. They had the structure in the eSF/KeSPA eras, such a strong backbone that it was enough to support that scene for years after they weren’t a factor, but it’s pretty clear something else is needed. Conversely, although controversial the current WCS system is, if nothing else a great structure for the European scene and for players to develop. For whatever reason it hasn’t had the same galvanising effect on NA, but I don’t think there’s a one-size-fits-all system that’s going to dovetail neatly with the various regional scenes. I think it's really a combination of things. Region lock + proleague dying meant the WCS pay structure could only support realistically so many pro players (not to mention lack of popularity in KR so streams aren't as lucrative to supplement income). The old guard was too good and the gap was very hard to close for new blood especially with the money being so scarce so there wasnt a huge financial motivation. Add on top of that the fact that most of the Korean players have been pros for a decade and realistically are looking towards their next step in life as they near 30 years old especially post military. Most interest in SC2 is in the west so it only makes sense that eventually it will overtake KR as the center of the scene. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25538 Posts
On February 28 2022 07:32 darklycid wrote: Maybe i'm misremembering, but the blink oepner did pressure to the zerg and allowed to transition behind it without a cleanup meaning you probably lost the game as you didn't depend too hard on high tech slow to replace units. Also the transitions were colossi or ht iirc with both offering different ways and there were definitly options for the zerg too and i don't remember any protoss executing it at a level similar to a soul train. At the end of hots zergs found ways to deal with it and i think the mu would have been more interesting as it developed into a more active one imo with more continuous action on the map. I think those aspects were quite positive. Just in general a meta where the Protoss could be out on the map without doing committed pushes. That’s certainly lacking today. It doesn’t help that force field has went from being a crucial, but uncounterable in enabling Protoss to shark, to being basically useless in the matchup. My main issue with that blink meta, and some of the PvT blink metas was more the comparable ease of transitioning/difficulty of scouting or star sensing a committed blink allin from a posturing into being greedy as fuck behind it. I think the simultaneous best and worst meta for PvZ was WoL BL/Infestor. Initially you had Protoss like Liquid HerO picking Zergs apart with every aspect of the Protoss arsenal in legit macro games going toe to toe. As Zerg got better at plugging holes in their defences it eventually moved to being almost unwinnable. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25538 Posts
On February 28 2022 07:37 EquilasH wrote: Don't get me wrong, I think he was an amazing player and innovator. In some ways it's kind of unfair of me leaving him out of the conversation due to injuries (I didn't even remember that's why he retired) but to me you have to be active for longer to be in contention for the title of GOAT. With that said, I think he was the most notable player of his era. On the flip side Maru has been an active pro for the entirety of SC2. Considerably longer than the Mvps, also considerably longer than Serral or Reynor have been too pros. He’s a few years head start on the Kespa guys who are still around. He was young enough that military service is still a distance away. He’s still a great too, obviously. But considering how long he’s been in the scene and how good he is, his trophy cabinet should be better than most, and tbh it isn’t even that. To me greatness encompasses a lot, a Maru in full flow is IMO without question the best player we’ve seen, the GSL 4peat was insane and his general performance in the Kespa era and in Starleagues even in periods Terran was garbage were sick. People definitely either forget or deliberately ignore some of what he was doing before his miraculous 4 GSLs On the flip side I think his longevity counts against him in the field of world championships and general tournament wins internationally, he’s had longer than basically everyone in those domains. On relatively short careers Taeja seems to have flipped from being rather overrated when he was active to super underrated these days. Rain swapped over, became the best Protoss scarily quickly, picked up the first GSL for a teamless player and then departed the stage. | ||
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darklycid
3511 Posts
On February 28 2022 08:14 WombaT wrote: On the flip side Maru has been an active pro for the entirety of SC2. Considerably longer than the Mvps, also considerably longer than Serral or Reynor have been too pros. He’s a few years head start on the Kespa guys who are still around. He was young enough that military service is still a distance away. He’s still a great too, obviously. But considering how long he’s been in the scene and how good he is, his trophy cabinet should be better than most, and tbh it isn’t even that. To me greatness encompasses a lot, a Maru in full flow is IMO without question the best player we’ve seen, the GSL 4peat was insane and his general performance in the Kespa era and in Starleagues even in periods Terran was garbage were sick. People definitely either forget or deliberately ignore some of what he was doing before his miraculous 4 GSLs On the flip side I think his longevity counts against him in the field of world championships and general tournament wins internationally, he’s had longer than basically everyone in those domains. On relatively short careers Taeja seems to have flipped from being rather overrated when he was active to super underrated these days. Rain swapped over, became the best Protoss scarily quickly, picked up the first GSL for a teamless player and then departed the stage. Tbf Serral is also around for way longer then ppl may be remembering just because he didn't really go full time and full focus until i think 2017? | ||
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Schelim
Austria11528 Posts
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
Congrats to Serral, our new Sniper. To our Roros too, for this exquisite performance. Thank god this is the last year of this torture. | ||
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EquilasH
Denmark2142 Posts
On February 28 2022 08:14 WombaT wrote: On the flip side Maru has been an active pro for the entirety of SC2. Considerably longer than the Mvps, also considerably longer than Serral or Reynor have been too pros. He’s a few years head start on the Kespa guys who are still around. He was young enough that military service is still a distance away. He’s still a great too, obviously. But considering how long he’s been in the scene and how good he is, his trophy cabinet should be better than most, and tbh it isn’t even that. To me greatness encompasses a lot, a Maru in full flow is IMO without question the best player we’ve seen, the GSL 4peat was insane and his general performance in the Kespa era and in Starleagues even in periods Terran was garbage were sick. People definitely either forget or deliberately ignore some of what he was doing before his miraculous 4 GSLs On the flip side I think his longevity counts against him in the field of world championships and general tournament wins internationally, he’s had longer than basically everyone in those domains. On relatively short careers Taeja seems to have flipped from being rather overrated when he was active to super underrated these days. Rain swapped over, became the best Protoss scarily quickly, picked up the first GSL for a teamless player and then departed the stage. This is actually the reason I think you have to be active for longer than 2-3 years to be in contention for GOAT. In my opinion Maru was well on his way to being GOAT but because he wasn't nearly as dominant internationally as people expected I don't wanna crown him GOAT. Also I think there was one thing I could've been more clear on in my first post; I don't think you can crown someone the GOAT of Starcraft 2 because so many players have shown so much that make them GOAT material but no one is the full package. My main point in the first post was that if you wanna discuss whether Serral, Maru or Rogue is the GOAT Innovation should be in the same discussion. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On February 28 2022 08:41 Morbidius wrote: This game will die the same way it fell off to mobas when it was at its prime, imcompetent(nonexistant now) balance team forcing people to endure this shit. In WoL and Hots they let balance problems fester so people would buy their expansions, now they just let it be. 8 world championships in a row to the same race, threads popping on the forum about how absurdly bad other races are compared to Zerg, and we are to believe the game is in a decent state. Congrats to Serral, our new Sniper. To our Roros too, for this exquisite performance. Thank god this is the last year of this torture. Hey Morbidius, can you tell me if foreign Starcraft has hit rock bottom at Katowice? Here you can see a real hater in action, guys. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25538 Posts
On February 28 2022 08:41 Morbidius wrote: This game will die the same way it fell off to mobas when it was at its prime, imcompetent(nonexistant now) balance team forcing people to endure this shit. In WoL and Hots they let balance problems fester so people would buy their expansions, now they just let it be. 8 world championships in a row to the same race, threads popping on the forum about how absurdly bad other races are compared to Zerg, and we are to believe the game is in a decent state. Congrats to Serral, our new Sniper. To our Roros too, for this exquisite performance. Thank god this is the last year of this torture. It’s ridiculous hyperbole to compare Serral to those guys. Who to be fair were still decent players. Heromarine took Reynor to the wire for a place in the final, Clem didn’t show anywhere near his best form, Maru underwhelmed against Serral. Yeah Zerg are absurdly dominant if we don’t talk Korean premiers, or other international premiers and exclusively use Katowice/Blizzcon as our metric. I think it’s absurd to deny that Zerg at the top end aren’t too at least some degree the strongest race, but it’s aided by having 4 monsters in their ranks. It’s not like Zergs outside the ‘big 4’ have done anything of note for ages, unlike say the BL/Infestor era where Zergs across the board were getting bumps in their results. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25538 Posts
On February 28 2022 08:41 EquilasH wrote: This is actually the reason I think you have to be active for longer than 2-3 years to be in contention for GOAT. In my opinion Maru was well on his way to being GOAT but because he wasn't nearly as dominant internationally as people expected I don't wanna crown him GOAT. Also I think there was one thing I could've been more clear on in my first post; I don't think you can crown someone the GOAT of Starcraft 2 because so many players have shown so much that make them GOAT material but no one is the full package. My main point in the first post was that if you wanna discuss whether Serral, Maru or Rogue is the GOAT Innovation should be in the same discussion. Oh yeah 100% I had Inno as my vote as the poll a while back. I think post Kespa switch, peak Inno was one of the scariest players we’ve ever seen, in all matchups, and he subsequently won many a tourney. As I often say for me you can only hope to be part of the conversation, to establish a definitive GOAT outside of a Flash level player, in SC2 is just too difficult given we’re covering 3 expansions and the tournament scene has been ripped up and changed innumerable times | ||
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grow a pair
1 Post
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geokilla
Canada8240 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25538 Posts
On February 28 2022 09:54 geokilla wrote: Does anyone have the VODs? I missed half the tournament so I want to watch it from the beginning. Catz’s put his stream VoDs up for what he and Drogo cast ESL have whatever they broadcast up on YouTube now, or at least yesterday they were up to date, not sure if the final day’s action is up yet | ||
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Poopi
France12886 Posts
On February 28 2022 08:54 WombaT wrote: It’s ridiculous hyperbole to compare Serral to those guys. Who to be fair were still decent players. Heromarine took Reynor to the wire for a place in the final, Clem didn’t show anywhere near his best form, Maru underwhelmed against Serral. Yeah Zerg are absurdly dominant if we don’t talk Korean premiers, or other international premiers and exclusively use Katowice/Blizzcon as our metric. I think it’s absurd to deny that Zerg at the top end aren’t too at least some degree the strongest race, but it’s aided by having 4 monsters in their ranks. It’s not like Zergs outside the ‘big 4’ have done anything of note for ages, unlike say the BL/Infestor era where Zergs across the board were getting bumps in their results. The fact that HeroMarine two map wins were 2 and 3 base allin is pretty telling. The Bunny strategy on Blackburn was also a neverending allin. Maru was not really underwhelming vs Serral except in his reaction time on Pride but it would not have mattered, and then he played more like the Maru we know in the next maps and it still did not matter. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18028 Posts
On February 28 2022 16:29 Poopi wrote: The fact that HeroMarine two map wins were 2 and 3 base allin is pretty telling. The Bunny strategy on Blackburn was also a neverending allin. Maru was not really underwhelming vs Serral except in his reaction time on Pride but it would not have mattered, and then he played more like the Maru we know in the next maps and it still did not matter. I disagree. HeroMarine winning with timing pushes is kinda business as usual? He's never really been one for super late game. Always building up a good economy and then just go-go-go until either his opponent's defense crumbles or he himself runs out of steam. He doesn't generally do the super cheesy stuff, but also isn't comfortable sitting back and doing it lategame. Him doing these timings isn't the surprising part of this... | ||
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-visnu-
Australia149 Posts
specially Serral. | ||
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maneatingshoe
Canada484 Posts
On February 28 2022 09:54 geokilla wrote: Does anyone have the VODs? I missed half the tournament so I want to watch it from the beginning. I always use SC2 Links to watch replays https://www.sc2links.com/tournament/?match=720 | ||
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NotSoHappy
445 Posts
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4198 Posts
Big congratz to the winner GG WP | ||
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SpaWnvERtiGO
110 Posts
On February 27 2022 19:41 Fecalfeast wrote: Lurkers have always been my favourite unit since BW but I can certainly see why they're frustrating to play against boy howdy Giving Zerg fast burrowing Lurkers and taking away the seeker missles ruined this game... | ||
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SpaWnvERtiGO
110 Posts
On February 27 2022 20:26 Poopi wrote: Don’t think it’s patch, these top zergs are just built different Bruh... they make banes and lurkers replaced Broods. They the same ole Zergs... | ||
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Poopi
France12886 Posts
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Starcloud
138 Posts
Anybody knows what has happened to Clem ? Very poor results recently ? | ||
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sim999999
23 Posts
Anybody knows what has happened to Clem ? Very poor results recently ? Stress maybe + he was one map away to go to RO12 in the hardest group by far, first 2 matches were maru and reynor..., there is a good chance that if you swap heromarine and clem you have the same results, that is HM does not make it out of the group and clem beat solar... | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25538 Posts
I wouldn’t worry about Clem I think he’ll show some great tournaments again this year | ||
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Lazzarus
Faroe Islands114 Posts
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ChaosArcher
Germany956 Posts
On March 02 2022 21:07 sim999999 wrote: Stress maybe + he was one map away to go to RO12 in the hardest group by far, first 2 matches were maru and reynor..., there is a good chance that if you swap heromarine and clem you have the same results, that is HM does not make it out of the group and clem beat solar... It was also his first big live tourney since he has become one of the top players during the covid online era. I completely expected him to struggle a little at first, but I am confident he is gonna ease into it eventually. | ||
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UnLarva
458 Posts
How it can be even possible without very high consistency levels - time by time - without the skill, while being 'patch zerg', and generally being the player of no-bull-shit? 17 Premier Victories, 27 Premier Finals. Unprecedented winning ratio vs. Top Koreans as a group. While not maybe THE GOATest GOAT, that all encompassing ang diminishing shittalk needs to cease now. | ||
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blooblooblahblah
Australia4163 Posts
He may have underperformed results wise in the tournament overall, but his result in the group stage was somewhat expected given how hard it was. Put him in any other group and he probably makes it out. | ||
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Pentarp
220 Posts
On February 28 2022 18:04 Acrofales wrote: I disagree. HeroMarine winning with timing pushes is kinda business as usual? He's never really been one for super late game. Always building up a good economy and then just go-go-go until either his opponent's defense crumbles or he himself runs out of steam. He doesn't generally do the super cheesy stuff, but also isn't comfortable sitting back and doing it lategame. Him doing these timings isn't the surprising part of this... Poopi's point is that there is tremendous pressure on non-Zergs to stop letting Zergs get into end-game easily. Except, blizz buffed Queens so much that light pushes are easily held off without impacting Zerg economy. Only all-ins can do enough damage; and when held, it means the Zerg has won. | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
On March 04 2022 08:10 blooblooblahblah wrote: The only real surprising thing about Clem's performance was his map score. He had a tough group, his performance against koreans has always been a lil shaky, and he had to do it in his worst matchup. He still almost made it out but yeah, not winning a single map vs Reynor or Maru was rough (but certainly not out of the realm of possibility no matter how good he is). He may have underperformed results wise in the tournament overall, but his result in the group stage was somewhat expected given how hard it was. Put him in any other group and he probably makes it out. Depends on how you were hoping Clem to perform. If people were really hoping this could be a break-away tournament where he could regularly hang with the big boys, this tournament is pretty disappointing (losses to Reynor, Maru, Byun). If you're just viewing him as a top European terran who can (but not always) hit up, then yeah the results aren't too surprising. | ||
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Poaktree
165 Posts
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[PkF] Wire
France24206 Posts
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Lazzarus
Faroe Islands114 Posts
@Waxangel? | ||
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661
71 Posts
On March 23 2022 17:45 Lazzarus wrote: Shouldn't a new world champion merit a frontpage article? @Waxangel? Just wanted to ask the same Is there a reason why no article about the IEM champion? | ||
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