On December 03 2021 10:13 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Wow what a match, such impressive play from both Rogue and Maru. What a match to cap off the 2021 year, between Rogue vs Maru 2 of the GOATS <3
I'm happy Rogue won!
The Jaedong and Flash of SC2.
Lol, always moderate takes. Just no.
Not sure why the negative response this post thread when everyone is just being excited. It was absolutely an amazing finals and the way these two played does remind me of a series between Jaedong and Flash. On top of that, these players have truly earned enough to be talked about at JD and Flash level. Let's get back on the same page in appreciation of these two guys.
The final was amazing, the comparison was out of place.
Care to elaborate? I'm genuinely curious because I'm not sure there exist two other players that meet that comparison in SC2.
I think the current (lack of) competitiveness of SC2 makes that comparison extremely stupid at best.
Well to be fair it does seem/feel like most tournaments are going to be won by Maru/Rogue at this point, so I can kind of understand the comparison a bit. Though I do think that if He Who Must Not Be Named never got banned that it would have been Maru and him as the Jaedong/Flash comparison and unfortunately we were robbed of that by some bad decision making.
Also I don't think it's really possible for there to be such a prolonged period of dominance in SC2 just because the game inherently has more parity than BW for a variety of reasons.
What's wrong with comparing Maru/Rogue and Flash/Jaedong? I understand the comparison here refers to their rivalry and dominance over a period of time (and not whether each are GOATs of their own races).
Maru definitely matches Flash's dominance. Rogue's dominance is more questionable (due to the best Zerg crown being shared with the likes of Serral, Reynor and Dark).
The comparison isn't perfect. But neither is it a total stretch.
(Personally, I see signs of the comparison converging, but not very concrete as yet.)
edit: actually I think it's important to consider when people say the current era is "less competitive" that it has less players, but the skill level remains higher than ever before. I don't think the game has ever been as demanding on players as it is in the meta from the last couple of years.
On December 04 2021 20:01 LemonyTang wrote: Absolutely fantastic finals.
But we all know the GOAT is still Mvp.
edit: actually I think it's important to consider when people say the current era is "less competitive" that it has less players, but the skill level remains higher than ever before. I don't think the game has ever been as demanding on players as it is in the meta from the last couple of years.
yeah but less players means that it's easier to win tournaments. The top players nowadays almost always reach the GSL playoffs and always the ro16 which means they only have to win a couple series vs similarly skilled players to win it. In 2013-2015 even the best player occasionally didn't even made it through Code A
Mvp was only winning before the BW elephants came stomping in (and then 'migrated' out of KR during the twilight of his career).
So one could equally argue that victories during the early years of SC2 worth less. Also, GSL happened more frequently, so players had more chances of winning.
Maru was winning during 'peak elephant' period. Winning against Rain, Inno, Classic, Stats, Zest, etc. And now fending off the new-gen champions like Rogue, Dark, Trap, etc. Maru is a champion of all seasons.
I'm not even a fan of both players, but at this rate in 2021 it's really tough to still argue that Mvp is greater than Maru...
(As much as I adore Boxer due to his pimp plays and being the first Terran champion, I wouldn't consider him as Tesagi GOAT of BW. Nada, iloveoov and Flash has a better claim to that crown.)
On December 05 2021 12:53 RKC wrote: Mvp was only winning before the BW elephants came stomping in (and then 'migrated' out of KR during the twilight of his career).
So one could equally argue that victories during the early years of SC2 worth less. Also, GSL happened more frequently, so players had more chances of winning.
Maru was winning during 'peak elephant' period. Winning against Rain, Inno, Classic, Stats, Zest, etc. And now fending off the new-gen champions like Rogue, Dark, Trap, etc. Maru is a champion of all seasons.
I'm not even a fan of both players, but at this rate in 2021 it's really tough to still argue that Mvp is greater than Maru...
(As much as I adore Boxer due to his pimp plays and being the first Terran champion, I wouldn't consider him as Tesagi GOAT of BW. Nada, iloveoov and Flash has a better claim to that crown.)
Yeah I agree with this and it's the main reason why I think Maru has the best Goat claim. Rogue's tournament collection might look slightly more impressive but all his wins came in the Post-Kespa era in which it is significantly easier to win due to the reduced player pool.
Also I think Inno should always stay in the conversation for being the most succesful player in the 'peak elephant' era
On December 05 2021 12:53 RKC wrote: Mvp was only winning before the BW elephants came stomping in (and then 'migrated' out of KR during the twilight of his career).
So one could equally argue that victories during the early years of SC2 worth less. Also, GSL happened more frequently, so players had more chances of winning.
Maru was winning during 'peak elephant' period. Winning against Rain, Inno, Classic, Stats, Zest, etc. And now fending off the new-gen champions like Rogue, Dark, Trap, etc. Maru is a champion of all seasons.
I'm not even a fan of both players, but at this rate in 2021 it's really tough to still argue that Mvp is greater than Maru...
(As much as I adore Boxer due to his pimp plays and being the first Terran champion, I wouldn't consider him as Tesagi GOAT of BW. Nada, iloveoov and Flash has a better claim to that crown.)
Yeah I agree with this and it's the main reason why I think Maru has the best Goat claim. Rogue's tournament collection might look slightly more impressive but all his wins came in the Post-Kespa era in which it is significantly easier to win due to the reduced player pool.
Also I think Inno should always stay in the conversation for being the most succesful player in the 'peak elephant' era
Yes, same here. Although his dominant reign was patchy (pun intended!), Inno still remains in the top 3 Terran bonjwa. Around the same level as TY. Definitely higher than Mvp and Byun, in my book.
I never really understood the obsession with Mvp as GOAT. Or maybe I understand too well, and grown out of it.
See, for a long time, I absolutely idolised Boxer. I grew up watching BW at his peak, dropped off slightly during Nada and iloveoov era, and picked up again during Flash. For some time, I refused to acknowledge any peer to Boxer. But as I watched more games of the rest, understood the context of each era better, and basically grew more objective as I grew older, I finally relented to the reality - that I could still adore Boxer as my favourite Terran player while acknowledging that he isn't necessarily the greatest Terran player.
Greatness, for me is not merely the best player, there’s a lot of intangibles in the mix.
Someone in my lifetime may come and surpass Tiger Woods’ major counts, but will there be a greater golfer?
From early Tiger dominating fields and the field not really believing they can beat him, thru to him winning a major on one leg, to clinching that last one after literal and figurative car crashes.
There’s quite a parallel with Mvp, he had a period where he was just the best player by a decent distance, and was still outfoxing opponents while hampered with injury.
His injuries may have damaged his career, but they solidified his greatness. If he’d been the King of Wings and just tailed off in level I think people would rate him more similarly to an MC
Maru certainly is in contention for both GOAT and best player, but he has had a lot of factors in his favour. Absolutely not his fault that he started early, very young and avoided injuries of course.
As a perennial fence sitter I think it’s super hard to compare eras and other factors, to establish an outright GOAT requires a Wayne Gretzky level talent, being part of the conversation is the best folks can hope for
The year is 2021, Legacy of the Void has survived more than twice as long as Mvp's career as a top level player, all of Mvp's achievements have been completely eclipsed. How does his name even come up?
On December 05 2021 23:50 Elentos wrote: The year is 2021, Legacy of the Void has survived more than twice as long as Mvp's career as a top level player, all of Mvp's achievements have been completely eclipsed. How does his name even come up?
I don't think Mvp is the GOAT anymore but he still does have one of the most impressive trophy lists in SC2. 3 starleagues, Blizzcon, GSL vs The World, MLG, and more. Granted he had some benefits going for him back then with the amount of tournaments available to play in and Kespa not transferring over but he is still very high on the list. Top 5 or so depending on whether you include Life or not. The only players clearly above him imo are Maru, Rogue, and Inno.
On December 06 2021 04:02 JJH777 wrote: I don't think Mvp is the GOAT anymore but he still does have one of the most impressive trophy lists in SC2. 3 starleagues, Blizzcon, GSL vs The World, MLG, and more. Granted he had some benefits going for him back then with the amount of tournaments available to play in and Kespa not transferring over but he is still very high on the list. Top 5 or so depending on whether you include Life or not. The only players clearly above him imo are Maru, Rogue, and Inno.
And sOs and Zest for sure. The rest are arguable but perosnally I wouldnt put Mvp into my top 15 of all time list. He just didnt plat long enough to be that relevant despite the achievements.
Sacrilege! But no it depends how you weight certain things. I don’t rate longevity that highly outside of tiebreaker scenarios.
$o$ had some huge wins and was generally a top player for quite a span, but Mvp had a decent period where he was considered the outright best player in the world.
If we’re talking greatest of all time I definitely bump players up who were the greatest at a time, so Inno, Maru, he who must not be named etc.
Also in strategy games I’ll give some bonus points for people who were there earlier and figured out and fleshed out how the game is meant to be played. Plus bonus points for what he managed through injury
I don’t think it’s outrageous to put Mvp down lower by any means but those are my rationales
On December 06 2021 04:02 JJH777 wrote: I don't think Mvp is the GOAT anymore but he still does have one of the most impressive trophy lists in SC2. 3 starleagues, Blizzcon, GSL vs The World, MLG, and more. Granted he had some benefits going for him back then with the amount of tournaments available to play in and Kespa not transferring over but he is still very high on the list. Top 5 or so depending on whether you include Life or not. The only players clearly above him imo are Maru, Rogue, and Inno.
And sOs and Zest for sure. The rest are arguable but perosnally I wouldnt put Mvp into my top 15 of all time list. He just didnt plat long enough to be that relevant despite the achievements.
Not just sOs and Zest, TY too. TY is the former world champion and WESG champion, also the first player to win premier tournament while working as caster. That is a still huge achievement for me.
You can pick at any comparison between any sport. But if there are two opposing players of any sport/game dominating for a period of time together then it makes for a fair comparison. No one is attempting to lower the degree or pedigree of which Flash and Jaedong earned their titles. It's more like, Bob has won 5 world cup checkers tournaments playing red and George has won 4 playing black. They are the Flash and Jaedong of checkers right now. After that statement, we don't need to ask how many checkers players competed in the Checkers World Cup or what the prize pool was, or what the conditions were like during the tournaments (outdoor but rainy and chilly for the first 15 cups unlike the past 9 perfect weather indoor checkers cups). The statement is a complement of achievement comparing SC1 and SC2 and unless you find a better Zerg/Terran duo from Brood War that you feel can better compare the two, then it doesn't need any more analysis.
On December 07 2021 02:42 BisuDagger wrote: You can pick at any comparison between any sport. But if there are two opposing players of any sport/game dominating for a period of time together then it makes for a fair comparison. No one is attempting to lower the degree or pedigree of which Flash and Jaedong earned their titles. It's more like, Bob has won 5 world cup checkers tournaments playing red and George has won 4 playing black. They are the Flash and Jaedong of checkers right now. After that statement, we don't need to ask how many checkers players competed in the Checkers World Cup or what the prize pool was, or what the conditions were like during the tournaments (outdoor but rainy and chilly for the first 15 cups unlike the past 9 perfect weather indoor checkers cups). The statement is a complement of achievement comparing SC1 and SC2 and unless you find a better Zerg/Terran duo from Brood War that you feel can better compare the two, then it doesn't need any more analysis.
On December 07 2021 02:42 BisuDagger wrote: You can pick at any comparison between any sport. But if there are two opposing players of any sport/game dominating for a period of time together then it makes for a fair comparison. No one is attempting to lower the degree or pedigree of which Flash and Jaedong earned their titles. It's more like, Bob has won 5 world cup checkers tournaments playing red and George has won 4 playing black. They are the Flash and Jaedong of checkers right now. After that statement, we don't need to ask how many checkers players competed in the Checkers World Cup or what the prize pool was, or what the conditions were like during the tournaments (outdoor but rainy and chilly for the first 15 cups unlike the past 9 perfect weather indoor checkers cups). The statement is a complement of achievement comparing SC1 and SC2 and unless you find a better Zerg/Terran duo from Brood War that you feel can better compare the two, then it doesn't need any more analysis.
100%, also happy cake day oh fan of Bisu!
Thanks! When I finally head to the UK we'll share a pint together even if I'm a scotch man.
On December 07 2021 02:42 BisuDagger wrote: You can pick at any comparison between any sport. But if there are two opposing players of any sport/game dominating for a period of time together then it makes for a fair comparison. No one is attempting to lower the degree or pedigree of which Flash and Jaedong earned their titles. It's more like, Bob has won 5 world cup checkers tournaments playing red and George has won 4 playing black. They are the Flash and Jaedong of checkers right now. After that statement, we don't need to ask how many checkers players competed in the Checkers World Cup or what the prize pool was, or what the conditions were like during the tournaments (outdoor but rainy and chilly for the first 15 cups unlike the past 9 perfect weather indoor checkers cups). The statement is a complement of achievement comparing SC1 and SC2 and unless you find a better Zerg/Terran duo from Brood War that you feel can better compare the two, then it doesn't need any more analysis.
100%, also happy cake day oh fan of Bisu!
Thanks! When I finally head to the UK we'll share a pint together even if I'm a scotch man.
My da was bloody called Angus so if you think I’m against scotch you’re mistaken :p
EPT
