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I wonder which is more demoralising to a player, and tougher to come back from mentally - being swept 4-0 or reverse-swept 4-3?
The former may push the player to start back at square one and play more 'freely' in future. While the second may trap the player into false comfort zone of 'I-just-need-to-make-incremental-changes' (the Kong zone).
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Great come back. Fun games. Artosis pointed out though, they were all nonsense losses. DT crutch exposed again. Terran forever!!
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On May 01 2021 06:09 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2021 05:46 JJH777 wrote:On May 01 2021 02:09 tigera6 wrote:On April 30 2021 19:56 Xain0n wrote:
I haven't counted Maru out and would never, you shouldn't discard the fact that Clem's TvZ could be better.
Clem TvZ is on another level, mainly beause of his godly micro. He would just force Zerg to trade unfavorably every single time, and taking down 2-3 more banes for each encounter than other Terran. That force Zerg into over-making units into more banes, and cant expand or macro like they could in other TvZ matchups. Serral and Reynor will have to do some serious reseach and practice to figure out how to deal with this. I personally believe going with Roach Ravager and transition into Lurker Hydra could be a way do deal with it. The problem is transitioning from Roach Ravager into Lurker Hydra isnt effective, and you can get killed before enough Lurker coming out. Maru TvZ is so much about how turtle and clean he can defend, forcing Zerg trading badly into well-setup defense. Its a much boring style and would take all the games into lategame. Maru only does that super passive style every game in high ping matches. He mixes it up a lot more against Korean Zergs. He still plays it but it's not every time. Maru's micro is just as good as Clem's. I would say his micro is even better than Clem, but you don’t get to see it against Reynor / Serral because of ping (he still has absurd army control in those games), whereas Clem plays these two with equal and low ping. His style was developed with the shoulder issue and is also good indeed for the high ping games, but he can play ByuN style games just as well. Edit: probably same as Clem in marine / bio micro, but better with ghost / late game army
I just find much more impressive than Maru, forced by his injured, was able to develop such a different way of playing a matchup as deadly as his previous multiprong style. No other elite player as undergo such a radical change and maintain the level of play. This just shows how deeply maru knows SC2. Another argument for this is his capacity to recover from a fail a 2 rax proxy, navigate the mid game cutting enough corners to keep himself alive and creep back into the game to finally win it in late. Just incredible.
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On May 01 2021 19:48 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2021 06:09 Poopi wrote:On May 01 2021 05:46 JJH777 wrote:On May 01 2021 02:09 tigera6 wrote:On April 30 2021 19:56 Xain0n wrote:
I haven't counted Maru out and would never, you shouldn't discard the fact that Clem's TvZ could be better.
Clem TvZ is on another level, mainly beause of his godly micro. He would just force Zerg to trade unfavorably every single time, and taking down 2-3 more banes for each encounter than other Terran. That force Zerg into over-making units into more banes, and cant expand or macro like they could in other TvZ matchups. Serral and Reynor will have to do some serious reseach and practice to figure out how to deal with this. I personally believe going with Roach Ravager and transition into Lurker Hydra could be a way do deal with it. The problem is transitioning from Roach Ravager into Lurker Hydra isnt effective, and you can get killed before enough Lurker coming out. Maru TvZ is so much about how turtle and clean he can defend, forcing Zerg trading badly into well-setup defense. Its a much boring style and would take all the games into lategame. Maru only does that super passive style every game in high ping matches. He mixes it up a lot more against Korean Zergs. He still plays it but it's not every time. Maru's micro is just as good as Clem's. I would say his micro is even better than Clem, but you don’t get to see it against Reynor / Serral because of ping (he still has absurd army control in those games), whereas Clem plays these two with equal and low ping. His style was developed with the shoulder issue and is also good indeed for the high ping games, but he can play ByuN style games just as well. Edit: probably same as Clem in marine / bio micro, but better with ghost / late game army I just find much more impressive than Maru, forced by his injured, was able to develop such a different way of playing a matchup as deadly as his previous multiprong style. No other elite player as undergo such a radical change and maintain the level of play. This just shows how deeply maru knows SC2. Another argument for this is his capacity to recover from a fail a 2 rax proxy, navigate the mid game cutting enough corners to keep himself alive and creep back into the game to finally win it in late. Just incredible.
I guess you don't remember a certain player called Mvp.
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On April 30 2021 16:29 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2021 11:42 Xain0n wrote:
The last time they played, Serral won 3-0.
In a minor online event during a period where Maru was in the hospital 3x a week, not able to practice at all according to other players, and straight dropping out of events due to shoulder pain. Your mindless Serral arguments are really desperate sometimes. I'm not saying Maru would 100% beat Serral. It could go either way. But to count him out is just complete stupidity, no other way to put it. And someone actually said Clem and Cure are better TvZers than Maru? Bruh
There is a grain of truth in there. If I had to bet on one Terran beating Serral in a BO3 or BO5, it'd be Clem. For whatever reason, he seems to be the only Terran who consistently stretches or beats Serral in tournaments.
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On May 01 2021 20:17 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2021 19:48 Argonauta wrote:On May 01 2021 06:09 Poopi wrote:On May 01 2021 05:46 JJH777 wrote:On May 01 2021 02:09 tigera6 wrote:On April 30 2021 19:56 Xain0n wrote:
I haven't counted Maru out and would never, you shouldn't discard the fact that Clem's TvZ could be better.
Clem TvZ is on another level, mainly beause of his godly micro. He would just force Zerg to trade unfavorably every single time, and taking down 2-3 more banes for each encounter than other Terran. That force Zerg into over-making units into more banes, and cant expand or macro like they could in other TvZ matchups. Serral and Reynor will have to do some serious reseach and practice to figure out how to deal with this. I personally believe going with Roach Ravager and transition into Lurker Hydra could be a way do deal with it. The problem is transitioning from Roach Ravager into Lurker Hydra isnt effective, and you can get killed before enough Lurker coming out. Maru TvZ is so much about how turtle and clean he can defend, forcing Zerg trading badly into well-setup defense. Its a much boring style and would take all the games into lategame. Maru only does that super passive style every game in high ping matches. He mixes it up a lot more against Korean Zergs. He still plays it but it's not every time. Maru's micro is just as good as Clem's. I would say his micro is even better than Clem, but you don’t get to see it against Reynor / Serral because of ping (he still has absurd army control in those games), whereas Clem plays these two with equal and low ping. His style was developed with the shoulder issue and is also good indeed for the high ping games, but he can play ByuN style games just as well. Edit: probably same as Clem in marine / bio micro, but better with ghost / late game army I just find much more impressive than Maru, forced by his injured, was able to develop such a different way of playing a matchup as deadly as his previous multiprong style. No other elite player as undergo such a radical change and maintain the level of play. This just shows how deeply maru knows SC2. Another argument for this is his capacity to recover from a fail a 2 rax proxy, navigate the mid game cutting enough corners to keep himself alive and creep back into the game to finally win it in late. Just incredible. I guess you don't remember a certain player called Mvp.
No, I start watching SC2 in 2015. I tried to watch some vods from WOL even back then, but the game has matured and change so much, I cant imagine trying to watch them now, the level of play is much higher nowadays.
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On May 01 2021 20:23 tskarzyn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2021 16:29 Fango wrote:On April 30 2021 11:42 Xain0n wrote:
The last time they played, Serral won 3-0.
In a minor online event during a period where Maru was in the hospital 3x a week, not able to practice at all according to other players, and straight dropping out of events due to shoulder pain. Your mindless Serral arguments are really desperate sometimes. I'm not saying Maru would 100% beat Serral. It could go either way. But to count him out is just complete stupidity, no other way to put it. And someone actually said Clem and Cure are better TvZers than Maru? Bruh There is a grain of truth in there. If I had to bet on one Terran beating Serral in a BO3 or BO5, it'd be Clem. For whatever reason, he seems to be the only Terran who consistently stretches or beats Serral in tournaments.
Because he's the only high level terran who consistently plays Serral. They've played 15 matches seen the start of 2020 and it's 8-7 (53%) in favour of Clem. If Maru played that many home server matches against Serral he probably wins at least half of them as well.
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Canada8989 Posts
On May 03 2021 02:19 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2021 20:23 tskarzyn wrote:On April 30 2021 16:29 Fango wrote:On April 30 2021 11:42 Xain0n wrote:
The last time they played, Serral won 3-0.
In a minor online event during a period where Maru was in the hospital 3x a week, not able to practice at all according to other players, and straight dropping out of events due to shoulder pain. Your mindless Serral arguments are really desperate sometimes. I'm not saying Maru would 100% beat Serral. It could go either way. But to count him out is just complete stupidity, no other way to put it. And someone actually said Clem and Cure are better TvZers than Maru? Bruh There is a grain of truth in there. If I had to bet on one Terran beating Serral in a BO3 or BO5, it'd be Clem. For whatever reason, he seems to be the only Terran who consistently stretches or beats Serral in tournaments. Because he's the only high level terran who consistently plays Serral. They've played 15 matches seen the start of 2020 and it's 8-7 (53%) in favour of Clem. If Maru played that many home server matches against Serral he probably wins at least half of them as well.
Maybe, but I think Clem tvz is better, he seems to really have a grasp on the matchup atm, he kind of rolled on Dark and Rogue.
Maru late game is probably better but it's kind of reliant on the maps he get and most of his build turn around getting a good opening, it's been a while since I saw someone play straight up tvz just pulling out safe build over and over and beating every zerg. He seems to be getting better the more he play against someone too, and that's usually a good bet that he understand what's going on.
His tvp is lacking though.
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Northern Ireland25561 Posts
On May 03 2021 08:03 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2021 02:19 Fango wrote:On May 01 2021 20:23 tskarzyn wrote:On April 30 2021 16:29 Fango wrote:On April 30 2021 11:42 Xain0n wrote:
The last time they played, Serral won 3-0.
In a minor online event during a period where Maru was in the hospital 3x a week, not able to practice at all according to other players, and straight dropping out of events due to shoulder pain. Your mindless Serral arguments are really desperate sometimes. I'm not saying Maru would 100% beat Serral. It could go either way. But to count him out is just complete stupidity, no other way to put it. And someone actually said Clem and Cure are better TvZers than Maru? Bruh There is a grain of truth in there. If I had to bet on one Terran beating Serral in a BO3 or BO5, it'd be Clem. For whatever reason, he seems to be the only Terran who consistently stretches or beats Serral in tournaments. Because he's the only high level terran who consistently plays Serral. They've played 15 matches seen the start of 2020 and it's 8-7 (53%) in favour of Clem. If Maru played that many home server matches against Serral he probably wins at least half of them as well. Maybe, but I think Clem tvz is better, he seems to really have a grasp on the matchup atm, he kind of rolled on Dark and Rogue. Maru late game is probably better but it's kind of reliant on the maps he get and most of his build turn around getting a good opening, it's been a while since I saw someone play straight up tvz just pulling out safe build over and over and beating every zerg. He seems to be getting better the more he play against someone too, and that's usually a good bet that he understand what's going on. His tvp is lacking though.
I think we’ll get a better gauge when offline tournaments are more common, whenever that may be.
Some of it could be stylistic, Clem seems better at a real in your face aggressive pushing style, Maru’s more defensive and techy approach he’s in a class of his own at.
I’m unsure which is better as an approach, or who’s better at the matchup overall.
Something tells me that Serral’s strengths would be ideally suited to cracking the Maru nut, but he’s been consistently vulnerable to Clem’s devastating parades. Reynor seems better matched against Clem than Serral, not as good against Maru’s (yes he beat him at Blizzcon, but some games he looked a bit lost)
Be interesting to see how things develop anyway
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EPT
