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On November 16 2020 06:44 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2020 05:35 Charoisaur wrote:On November 16 2020 04:58 argonautdice wrote:
Serral's only ever lost 2 Bo7 ZvPs in his entire competitive career: 2-4 to Welmu in 2014 and 3-4 to Neeb in 2017. He's never ever lost a Bo7 ZvP to a Korean. He's only ever lost 6 Bo3+ series to Korean protosses in LotV while winning 29 (83% win rate). and Rogue has a 100% bo7 career winrate in all matchups. And you accused me multiple times in the past of speaking of Serral out of context? Rogue's name just came out of the blue, the only possible connection is mentioning bo7. By the way, yesterday Rogue lost 2-4 to DRG, if I am counting correctly his career record is 20-8 in bo7; he is 7-0 in Premier finals and offline bo7 but he played 0 against Terran and 1 against Zerg. He barely played two matchups under such conditions... Ah, wasn't Serral supposed to be "slumping"?
offline he's 9-0 as GSL semifinals are also bo7.
Impressive is also that his map record in offline bo7 is 36-9 so he loses on average one map per bo7.
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On November 16 2020 07:56 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2020 06:44 Xain0n wrote:On November 16 2020 05:35 Charoisaur wrote:On November 16 2020 04:58 argonautdice wrote:
Serral's only ever lost 2 Bo7 ZvPs in his entire competitive career: 2-4 to Welmu in 2014 and 3-4 to Neeb in 2017. He's never ever lost a Bo7 ZvP to a Korean. He's only ever lost 6 Bo3+ series to Korean protosses in LotV while winning 29 (83% win rate). and Rogue has a 100% bo7 career winrate in all matchups. And you accused me multiple times in the past of speaking of Serral out of context? Rogue's name just came out of the blue, the only possible connection is mentioning bo7. By the way, yesterday Rogue lost 2-4 to DRG, if I am counting correctly his career record is 20-8 in bo7; he is 7-0 in Premier finals and offline bo7 but he played 0 against Terran and 1 against Zerg. He barely played two matchups under such conditions... Ah, wasn't Serral supposed to be "slumping"? offline he's 9-0 as GSL semifinals are also bo7
That's true, this adds two Zerg.
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France12911 Posts
Stats started the finals well but the expected beat Clem who had a good shot vs Serral into losing the finals still happened unfortunately...
Gratz to Serral, must be a relief to avoid Clem and Reynor since they were the only ones to stop him from winning DH EU.
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Aw man, just got home from work and missed all the excitement. Anyone know where I can find the VODs? SC2links still only has up to the quarterfinals.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
So, we have 2 premier tourneys left for 2020, don't think Take will announce anything at this point.
And we have(the order is kinda random)
10 zerg victories, the heaviest victories has Rogue(IEM, GSL), Reynor(4), Serral(2), soO(1), Scarlett(1)
5 Terran victories, TY(2 Code S), Maru(ST1, KoB) and Clem
2 Protoss victories, Astrea and Neeb (both 1  )
runner ups:
8 Protoss(I keep telling you it's the Kong race) - Stats(2), Trap(2), Zest(1), Astrea(2), Neeb(1)
5 Terran - Maru, Cure(2), Clem and Inno(both 1)
4 Zergs - Reynor, Serral(2), Dark
Zergs already won more then the other 2 races combined even if non-zerg players win both TSL and GSL ST2.
Also if both TSL and ST2 delivers a Protoss runner up they will dominate the 2nd places At this point I am starting to believe that a Protoss champion is nearly impossible and it's not based on balance. Both Stats and Trap keep collecting mostly 2nd places and rarely a title. sOs is a shadow of his former shadow and keeps on fading. Zest is innovative and everything, but is worse at getting to the finals.
Technically the stats still remain unchanged*. If you remove Serral, the remaining Zergs still can rule the rest of the races(as Serral still has the most premier victories). Maru is still the biggest hope of Terrans adding 2 more titles(while TY has dominated the Code S) and Protoss is still the Kong race and you have to watch SC2 Masters NA to see them winning. Code S is once again the Terran bastion of hopes after 2019.
As it appears the loss of Classic is huge and Zest cannot channel his inner champion. TY appears to replace Innovation as the 2nd hope for Terrans next to Maru.
*from the Rogue's first WC title which brought him the infamous patchzerg article.
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Any word on if/when the replays will be out?
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On November 16 2020 09:14 deacon.frost wrote:So, we have 2 premier tourneys left for 2020, don't think Take will announce anything at this point. And we have(the order is kinda random) 10 zerg victories, the heaviest victories has Rogue(IEM, GSL), Reynor(4), Serral(2), soO(1), Scarlett(1) 5 Terran victories, TY(2 Code S), Maru(ST1, KoB) and Clem 2 Protoss victories, Astrea and Neeb (both 1 ) runner ups: 8 Protoss(I keep telling you it's the Kong race) - Stats(2), Trap(2), Zest(1), Astrea(2), Neeb(1) 5 Terran - Maru, Cure(2), Clem and Inno(both 1) 4 Zergs - Reynor, Serral(2), Dark Zergs already won more then the other 2 races combined even if non-zerg players win both TSL and GSL ST2. Also if both TSL and ST2 delivers a Protoss runner up they will dominate the 2nd places At this point I am starting to believe that a Protoss champion is nearly impossible and it's not based on balance. Both Stats and Trap keep collecting mostly 2nd places and rarely a title. sOs is a shadow of his former shadow and keeps on fading. Zest is innovative and everything, but is worse at getting to the finals. Technically the stats still remain unchanged*. If you remove Serral, the remaining Zergs still can rule the rest of the races(as Serral still has the most premier victories). Maru is still the biggest hope of Terrans adding 2 more titles(while TY has dominated the Code S) and Protoss is still the Kong race and you have to watch SC2 Masters NA to see them winning. Code S is once again the Terran bastion of hopes after 2019. As it appears the loss of Classic is huge and Zest cannot channel his inner champion. TY appears to replace Innovation as the 2nd hope for Terrans next to Maru. *from the Rogue's first WC title which brought him the infamous patchzerg article.
What are you trying to say?
2020 hasn't been a terrible year balance wise. We didn't get to see more Terran victories because there weren't many Premier tournaments when the race was very strong, after Katowice.
ZvP has been the issue again, 6-0 in finals this year!
While it's indeed true that current top Zerg possess a much more effective killer instinct than their Protoss equivalent, the last time the matchup seemingly favored everyone lost their mind because of the perceived "Protoss infestation", leading to the nerfs we all know of.
I am not sure about your conclusions.
Why would Maru be the greatest hope of Terran, exactly?
TY performed better this year and the rise of Clem seems more promising.
As for Protoss, sOs has been almost irrelevant and you definitely overrate Classic(who won just as much as Stats in 2018-2019, but reached less finals); Stats and Zest will be gone soon, the upcoming EU youngsters need a couple of years so that the race needs help or, I fear, won't win big ever again.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On November 16 2020 10:05 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2020 09:14 deacon.frost wrote:So, we have 2 premier tourneys left for 2020, don't think Take will announce anything at this point. And we have(the order is kinda random) 10 zerg victories, the heaviest victories has Rogue(IEM, GSL), Reynor(4), Serral(2), soO(1), Scarlett(1) 5 Terran victories, TY(2 Code S), Maru(ST1, KoB) and Clem 2 Protoss victories, Astrea and Neeb (both 1 ) runner ups: 8 Protoss(I keep telling you it's the Kong race) - Stats(2), Trap(2), Zest(1), Astrea(2), Neeb(1) 5 Terran - Maru, Cure(2), Clem and Inno(both 1) 4 Zergs - Reynor, Serral(2), Dark Zergs already won more then the other 2 races combined even if non-zerg players win both TSL and GSL ST2. Also if both TSL and ST2 delivers a Protoss runner up they will dominate the 2nd places At this point I am starting to believe that a Protoss champion is nearly impossible and it's not based on balance. Both Stats and Trap keep collecting mostly 2nd places and rarely a title. sOs is a shadow of his former shadow and keeps on fading. Zest is innovative and everything, but is worse at getting to the finals. Technically the stats still remain unchanged*. If you remove Serral, the remaining Zergs still can rule the rest of the races(as Serral still has the most premier victories). Maru is still the biggest hope of Terrans adding 2 more titles(while TY has dominated the Code S) and Protoss is still the Kong race and you have to watch SC2 Masters NA to see them winning. Code S is once again the Terran bastion of hopes after 2019. As it appears the loss of Classic is huge and Zest cannot channel his inner champion. TY appears to replace Innovation as the 2nd hope for Terrans next to Maru. *from the Rogue's first WC title which brought him the infamous patchzerg article. What are you trying to say? 2020 hasn't been a terrible year balance wise. We didn't get to see more Terran victories because there weren't many Premier tournaments when the race was very strong, after Katowice. ZvP has been the issue again, 6-0 in finals this year! While it's indeed true that current top Zerg possess a much more effective killer instinct than their Protoss equivalent, the last time the matchup seemingly favored everyone lost their mind because of the perceived "Protoss infestation", leading to the nerfs we all know of. I am not sure about your conclusions. Why would Maru be the greatest hope of Terran, exactly? TY performed better this year and the rise of Clem seems more promising. As for Protoss, sOs has been almost irrelevant and you definitely overrate Classic(who won just as much as Stats in 2018-2019, but reached less finals); Stats and Zest will be gone soon, the upcoming EU youngsters need a couple of years so that the race needs help or, I fear, won't win big ever again.
What am I trying to say?
1) Zergs are winning more than the other two races combined. Still
2) Protoss is unable to win a tournament unless we're talking restricted lower quality tournaments(which are still premier) while they reach finals
3) Out of 12 premier Terran titles in the last 3 years Maru has 7 of them, TY has 2, Innovation has 2, Clem has 1. Maybe that's why Maru.
4) Classic won the same as Stats but didn't get so many 2nd places. He's certainly not as Kong as Stats is. Also Protoss lost half of their good titles in him, less if you count the NA titles.
5) Talking about sOs because he's a 3-time world champion. The only other 3-time WC is Rogue. Also once Zest and Stats leave he's the most achieved Protoss if you count titles who left. That's because Trap's not winning anything. If you count the NA titles, then Neeb. The last Protoss champion once Stats and Zest departed is Neeb with his KeSPA cup victory and Patience with his HSC victory. Both from 2016. Let. That. Sink.
6) As per usual you didn't notice the balance point, especially talking about PvZ.
On November 16 2020 09:14 deacon.frost wrote:+ Show Spoiler +So, we have 2 premier tourneys left for 2020, don't think Take will announce anything at this point. And we have(the order is kinda random) 10 zerg victories, the heaviest victories has Rogue(IEM, GSL), Reynor(4), Serral(2), soO(1), Scarlett(1) 5 Terran victories, TY(2 Code S), Maru(ST1, KoB) and Clem 2 Protoss victories, Astrea and Neeb (both 1 ) runner ups: 8 Protoss(I keep telling you it's the Kong race) - Stats(2), Trap(2), Zest(1), Astrea(2), Neeb(1) 5 Terran - Maru, Cure(2), Clem and Inno(both 1) 4 Zergs - Reynor, Serral(2), Dark Zergs already won more then the other 2 races combined even if non-zerg players win both TSL and GSL ST2. Also if both TSL and ST2 delivers a Protoss runner up they will dominate the 2nd places At this point I am starting to believe that a Protoss champion is nearly impossible and it's not based on balance. Both Stats and Trap keep collecting mostly 2nd places and rarely a title. sOs is a shadow of his former shadow and keeps on fading. Zest is innovative and everything, but is worse at getting to the finals. T + Show Spoiler +echnically the stats still remain unchanged*. If you remove Serral, the remaining Zergs still can rule the rest of the races(as Serral still has the most premier victories). Maru is still the biggest hope of Terrans adding 2 more titles(while TY has dominated the Code S) and Protoss is still the Kong race and you have to watch SC2 Masters NA to see them winning. Code S is once again the Terran bastion of hopes after 2019.
As it appears the loss of Classic is huge and Zest cannot channel his inner champion. TY appears to replace Innovation as the 2nd hope for Terrans next to Maru.
*from the Rogue's first WC title which brought him the infamous patchzerg article.
So, that's my quota for the rest of the year.
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On November 16 2020 18:58 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2020 10:05 Xain0n wrote:On November 16 2020 09:14 deacon.frost wrote:So, we have 2 premier tourneys left for 2020, don't think Take will announce anything at this point. And we have(the order is kinda random) 10 zerg victories, the heaviest victories has Rogue(IEM, GSL), Reynor(4), Serral(2), soO(1), Scarlett(1) 5 Terran victories, TY(2 Code S), Maru(ST1, KoB) and Clem 2 Protoss victories, Astrea and Neeb (both 1 ) runner ups: 8 Protoss(I keep telling you it's the Kong race) - Stats(2), Trap(2), Zest(1), Astrea(2), Neeb(1) 5 Terran - Maru, Cure(2), Clem and Inno(both 1) 4 Zergs - Reynor, Serral(2), Dark Zergs already won more then the other 2 races combined even if non-zerg players win both TSL and GSL ST2. Also if both TSL and ST2 delivers a Protoss runner up they will dominate the 2nd places At this point I am starting to believe that a Protoss champion is nearly impossible and it's not based on balance. Both Stats and Trap keep collecting mostly 2nd places and rarely a title. sOs is a shadow of his former shadow and keeps on fading. Zest is innovative and everything, but is worse at getting to the finals. Technically the stats still remain unchanged*. If you remove Serral, the remaining Zergs still can rule the rest of the races(as Serral still has the most premier victories). Maru is still the biggest hope of Terrans adding 2 more titles(while TY has dominated the Code S) and Protoss is still the Kong race and you have to watch SC2 Masters NA to see them winning. Code S is once again the Terran bastion of hopes after 2019. As it appears the loss of Classic is huge and Zest cannot channel his inner champion. TY appears to replace Innovation as the 2nd hope for Terrans next to Maru. *from the Rogue's first WC title which brought him the infamous patchzerg article. What are you trying to say? 2020 hasn't been a terrible year balance wise. We didn't get to see more Terran victories because there weren't many Premier tournaments when the race was very strong, after Katowice. ZvP has been the issue again, 6-0 in finals this year! While it's indeed true that current top Zerg possess a much more effective killer instinct than their Protoss equivalent, the last time the matchup seemingly favored everyone lost their mind because of the perceived "Protoss infestation", leading to the nerfs we all know of. I am not sure about your conclusions. Why would Maru be the greatest hope of Terran, exactly? TY performed better this year and the rise of Clem seems more promising. As for Protoss, sOs has been almost irrelevant and you definitely overrate Classic(who won just as much as Stats in 2018-2019, but reached less finals); Stats and Zest will be gone soon, the upcoming EU youngsters need a couple of years so that the race needs help or, I fear, won't win big ever again. What am I trying to say? 1) Zergs are winning more than the other two races combined. Still 2) Protoss is unable to win a tournament unless we're talking restricted lower quality tournaments(which are still premier) while they reach finals 3) Out of 12 premier Terran titles in the last 3 years Maru has 7 of them, TY has 2, Innovation has 2, Clem has 1. Maybe that's why Maru. 4) Classic won the same as Stats but didn't get so many 2nd places. He's certainly not as Kong as Stats is. Also Protoss lost half of their good titles in him, less if you count the NA titles. 5) Talking about sOs because he's a 3-time world champion. The only other 3-time WC is Rogue. Also once Zest and Stats leave he's the most achieved Protoss if you count titles who left. That's because Trap's not winning anything. If you count the NA titles, then Neeb. The last Protoss champion once Stats and Zest departed is Neeb with his KeSPA cup victory and Patience with his HSC victory. Both from 2016. Let. That. Sink.6) As per usual you didn't notice the balance point, especially talking about PvZ. Show nested quote +On November 16 2020 09:14 deacon.frost wrote:+ Show Spoiler +So, we have 2 premier tourneys left for 2020, don't think Take will announce anything at this point. And we have(the order is kinda random) 10 zerg victories, the heaviest victories has Rogue(IEM, GSL), Reynor(4), Serral(2), soO(1), Scarlett(1) 5 Terran victories, TY(2 Code S), Maru(ST1, KoB) and Clem 2 Protoss victories, Astrea and Neeb (both 1 ) runner ups: 8 Protoss(I keep telling you it's the Kong race) - Stats(2), Trap(2), Zest(1), Astrea(2), Neeb(1) 5 Terran - Maru, Cure(2), Clem and Inno(both 1) 4 Zergs - Reynor, Serral(2), Dark Zergs already won more then the other 2 races combined even if non-zerg players win both TSL and GSL ST2. Also if both TSL and ST2 delivers a Protoss runner up they will dominate the 2nd places At this point I am starting to believe that a Protoss champion is nearly impossible and it's not based on balance. Both Stats and Trap keep collecting mostly 2nd places and rarely a title. sOs is a shadow of his former shadow and keeps on fading. Zest is innovative and everything, but is worse at getting to the finals. T + Show Spoiler +echnically the stats still remain unchanged*. If you remove Serral, the remaining Zergs still can rule the rest of the races(as Serral still has the most premier victories). Maru is still the biggest hope of Terrans adding 2 more titles(while TY has dominated the Code S) and Protoss is still the Kong race and you have to watch SC2 Masters NA to see them winning. Code S is once again the Terran bastion of hopes after 2019.
As it appears the loss of Classic is huge and Zest cannot channel his inner champion. TY appears to replace Innovation as the 2nd hope for Terrans next to Maru.
*from the Rogue's first WC title which brought him the infamous patchzerg article. So, that's my quota for the rest of the year.
If we'd exclude NA (for obvious reasons) protoss has the same amount of runner ups as terran, so not even the best kong race then
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On November 16 2020 19:39 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2020 18:58 deacon.frost wrote:On November 16 2020 10:05 Xain0n wrote:On November 16 2020 09:14 deacon.frost wrote:So, we have 2 premier tourneys left for 2020, don't think Take will announce anything at this point. And we have(the order is kinda random) 10 zerg victories, the heaviest victories has Rogue(IEM, GSL), Reynor(4), Serral(2), soO(1), Scarlett(1) 5 Terran victories, TY(2 Code S), Maru(ST1, KoB) and Clem 2 Protoss victories, Astrea and Neeb (both 1 ) runner ups: 8 Protoss(I keep telling you it's the Kong race) - Stats(2), Trap(2), Zest(1), Astrea(2), Neeb(1) 5 Terran - Maru, Cure(2), Clem and Inno(both 1) 4 Zergs - Reynor, Serral(2), Dark Zergs already won more then the other 2 races combined even if non-zerg players win both TSL and GSL ST2. Also if both TSL and ST2 delivers a Protoss runner up they will dominate the 2nd places At this point I am starting to believe that a Protoss champion is nearly impossible and it's not based on balance. Both Stats and Trap keep collecting mostly 2nd places and rarely a title. sOs is a shadow of his former shadow and keeps on fading. Zest is innovative and everything, but is worse at getting to the finals. Technically the stats still remain unchanged*. If you remove Serral, the remaining Zergs still can rule the rest of the races(as Serral still has the most premier victories). Maru is still the biggest hope of Terrans adding 2 more titles(while TY has dominated the Code S) and Protoss is still the Kong race and you have to watch SC2 Masters NA to see them winning. Code S is once again the Terran bastion of hopes after 2019. As it appears the loss of Classic is huge and Zest cannot channel his inner champion. TY appears to replace Innovation as the 2nd hope for Terrans next to Maru. *from the Rogue's first WC title which brought him the infamous patchzerg article. What are you trying to say? 2020 hasn't been a terrible year balance wise. We didn't get to see more Terran victories because there weren't many Premier tournaments when the race was very strong, after Katowice. ZvP has been the issue again, 6-0 in finals this year! While it's indeed true that current top Zerg possess a much more effective killer instinct than their Protoss equivalent, the last time the matchup seemingly favored everyone lost their mind because of the perceived "Protoss infestation", leading to the nerfs we all know of. I am not sure about your conclusions. Why would Maru be the greatest hope of Terran, exactly? TY performed better this year and the rise of Clem seems more promising. As for Protoss, sOs has been almost irrelevant and you definitely overrate Classic(who won just as much as Stats in 2018-2019, but reached less finals); Stats and Zest will be gone soon, the upcoming EU youngsters need a couple of years so that the race needs help or, I fear, won't win big ever again. What am I trying to say? 1) Zergs are winning more than the other two races combined. Still 2) Protoss is unable to win a tournament unless we're talking restricted lower quality tournaments(which are still premier) while they reach finals 3) Out of 12 premier Terran titles in the last 3 years Maru has 7 of them, TY has 2, Innovation has 2, Clem has 1. Maybe that's why Maru. 4) Classic won the same as Stats but didn't get so many 2nd places. He's certainly not as Kong as Stats is. Also Protoss lost half of their good titles in him, less if you count the NA titles. 5) Talking about sOs because he's a 3-time world champion. The only other 3-time WC is Rogue. Also once Zest and Stats leave he's the most achieved Protoss if you count titles who left. That's because Trap's not winning anything. If you count the NA titles, then Neeb. The last Protoss champion once Stats and Zest departed is Neeb with his KeSPA cup victory and Patience with his HSC victory. Both from 2016. Let. That. Sink.6) As per usual you didn't notice the balance point, especially talking about PvZ. On November 16 2020 09:14 deacon.frost wrote:+ Show Spoiler +So, we have 2 premier tourneys left for 2020, don't think Take will announce anything at this point. And we have(the order is kinda random) 10 zerg victories, the heaviest victories has Rogue(IEM, GSL), Reynor(4), Serral(2), soO(1), Scarlett(1) 5 Terran victories, TY(2 Code S), Maru(ST1, KoB) and Clem 2 Protoss victories, Astrea and Neeb (both 1 ) runner ups: 8 Protoss(I keep telling you it's the Kong race) - Stats(2), Trap(2), Zest(1), Astrea(2), Neeb(1) 5 Terran - Maru, Cure(2), Clem and Inno(both 1) 4 Zergs - Reynor, Serral(2), Dark Zergs already won more then the other 2 races combined even if non-zerg players win both TSL and GSL ST2. Also if both TSL and ST2 delivers a Protoss runner up they will dominate the 2nd places At this point I am starting to believe that a Protoss champion is nearly impossible and it's not based on balance. Both Stats and Trap keep collecting mostly 2nd places and rarely a title. sOs is a shadow of his former shadow and keeps on fading. Zest is innovative and everything, but is worse at getting to the finals. T + Show Spoiler +echnically the stats still remain unchanged*. If you remove Serral, the remaining Zergs still can rule the rest of the races(as Serral still has the most premier victories). Maru is still the biggest hope of Terrans adding 2 more titles(while TY has dominated the Code S) and Protoss is still the Kong race and you have to watch SC2 Masters NA to see them winning. Code S is once again the Terran bastion of hopes after 2019.
As it appears the loss of Classic is huge and Zest cannot channel his inner champion. TY appears to replace Innovation as the 2nd hope for Terrans next to Maru.
*from the Rogue's first WC title which brought him the infamous patchzerg article. So, that's my quota for the rest of the year. If we'd exclude NA (for obvious reasons) protoss has the same amount of runner ups as terran, so not even the best kong race then
I like that solution, this would make the Zerg domination even bigger
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On November 16 2020 08:18 Poopi wrote:
Stats started the finals well but the expected beat Clem who had a good shot vs Serral into losing the finals still happened unfortunately...
Gratz to Serral, must be a relief to avoid Clem and Reynor since they were the only ones to stop him from winning DH EU.
From the interview I actually got the impression he was kind of sad that he didn't get a chance to claim revenge against Reynor or Clem. No one doubted his ability to beat Stats.
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I think Serral got angry that he didn't win eu and since then it was guaranteed that he destroys this season finals :D
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I'm glad I don't get butthurt about balance and hide it behind clown smiley emojis. I feel like I'm a happier person as a result.
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Congratz Serral! Slump confirmed
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On November 16 2020 18:58 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2020 10:05 Xain0n wrote:On November 16 2020 09:14 deacon.frost wrote:So, we have 2 premier tourneys left for 2020, don't think Take will announce anything at this point. And we have(the order is kinda random) 10 zerg victories, the heaviest victories has Rogue(IEM, GSL), Reynor(4), Serral(2), soO(1), Scarlett(1) 5 Terran victories, TY(2 Code S), Maru(ST1, KoB) and Clem 2 Protoss victories, Astrea and Neeb (both 1 ) runner ups: 8 Protoss(I keep telling you it's the Kong race) - Stats(2), Trap(2), Zest(1), Astrea(2), Neeb(1) 5 Terran - Maru, Cure(2), Clem and Inno(both 1) 4 Zergs - Reynor, Serral(2), Dark Zergs already won more then the other 2 races combined even if non-zerg players win both TSL and GSL ST2. Also if both TSL and ST2 delivers a Protoss runner up they will dominate the 2nd places At this point I am starting to believe that a Protoss champion is nearly impossible and it's not based on balance. Both Stats and Trap keep collecting mostly 2nd places and rarely a title. sOs is a shadow of his former shadow and keeps on fading. Zest is innovative and everything, but is worse at getting to the finals. Technically the stats still remain unchanged*. If you remove Serral, the remaining Zergs still can rule the rest of the races(as Serral still has the most premier victories). Maru is still the biggest hope of Terrans adding 2 more titles(while TY has dominated the Code S) and Protoss is still the Kong race and you have to watch SC2 Masters NA to see them winning. Code S is once again the Terran bastion of hopes after 2019. As it appears the loss of Classic is huge and Zest cannot channel his inner champion. TY appears to replace Innovation as the 2nd hope for Terrans next to Maru. *from the Rogue's first WC title which brought him the infamous patchzerg article. What are you trying to say? 2020 hasn't been a terrible year balance wise. We didn't get to see more Terran victories because there weren't many Premier tournaments when the race was very strong, after Katowice. ZvP has been the issue again, 6-0 in finals this year! While it's indeed true that current top Zerg possess a much more effective killer instinct than their Protoss equivalent, the last time the matchup seemingly favored everyone lost their mind because of the perceived "Protoss infestation", leading to the nerfs we all know of. I am not sure about your conclusions. Why would Maru be the greatest hope of Terran, exactly? TY performed better this year and the rise of Clem seems more promising. As for Protoss, sOs has been almost irrelevant and you definitely overrate Classic(who won just as much as Stats in 2018-2019, but reached less finals); Stats and Zest will be gone soon, the upcoming EU youngsters need a couple of years so that the race needs help or, I fear, won't win big ever again. What am I trying to say? 1) Zergs are winning more than the other two races combined. Still 2) Protoss is unable to win a tournament unless we're talking restricted lower quality tournaments(which are still premier) while they reach finals 3) Out of 12 premier Terran titles in the last 3 years Maru has 7 of them, TY has 2, Innovation has 2, Clem has 1. Maybe that's why Maru. 4) Classic won the same as Stats but didn't get so many 2nd places. He's certainly not as Kong as Stats is. Also Protoss lost half of their good titles in him, less if you count the NA titles. 5) Talking about sOs because he's a 3-time world champion. The only other 3-time WC is Rogue. Also once Zest and Stats leave he's the most achieved Protoss if you count titles who left. That's because Trap's not winning anything. If you count the NA titles, then Neeb. The last Protoss champion once Stats and Zest departed is Neeb with his KeSPA cup victory and Patience with his HSC victory. Both from 2016. Let. That. Sink.6) As per usual you didn't notice the balance point, especially talking about PvZ. Show nested quote +On November 16 2020 09:14 deacon.frost wrote:+ Show Spoiler +So, we have 2 premier tourneys left for 2020, don't think Take will announce anything at this point. And we have(the order is kinda random) 10 zerg victories, the heaviest victories has Rogue(IEM, GSL), Reynor(4), Serral(2), soO(1), Scarlett(1) 5 Terran victories, TY(2 Code S), Maru(ST1, KoB) and Clem 2 Protoss victories, Astrea and Neeb (both 1 ) runner ups: 8 Protoss(I keep telling you it's the Kong race) - Stats(2), Trap(2), Zest(1), Astrea(2), Neeb(1) 5 Terran - Maru, Cure(2), Clem and Inno(both 1) 4 Zergs - Reynor, Serral(2), Dark Zergs already won more then the other 2 races combined even if non-zerg players win both TSL and GSL ST2. Also if both TSL and ST2 delivers a Protoss runner up they will dominate the 2nd places At this point I am starting to believe that a Protoss champion is nearly impossible and it's not based on balance. Both Stats and Trap keep collecting mostly 2nd places and rarely a title. sOs is a shadow of his former shadow and keeps on fading. Zest is innovative and everything, but is worse at getting to the finals. T + Show Spoiler +echnically the stats still remain unchanged*. If you remove Serral, the remaining Zergs still can rule the rest of the races(as Serral still has the most premier victories). Maru is still the biggest hope of Terrans adding 2 more titles(while TY has dominated the Code S) and Protoss is still the Kong race and you have to watch SC2 Masters NA to see them winning. Code S is once again the Terran bastion of hopes after 2019.
As it appears the loss of Classic is huge and Zest cannot channel his inner champion. TY appears to replace Innovation as the 2nd hope for Terrans next to Maru.
*from the Rogue's first WC title which brought him the infamous patchzerg article. So, that's my quota for the rest of the year.
Having won titles in the past doesn't imply you are expected to do it now; sOs hasn't been a serious championship contender for years. Why so much faith in him and not in PartinG who still plays, for example?
Classic with his 5-2 in finals is less of a kong Stats is(5-9 overall but 1-5 in the last six) , that's true, but not reaching finals doesn't help winning titles; also, Classic lost the only PvZ final he got to play in LoTV.
Similarly, Maru definitely won the most championships for Terran in the last years but considering his wrists issues and the rise of a new talent, he doesn't look like the Terran hope for the future to me; Clem is, when you look at his skill and his age.
The rise of foreign Zerg prodigies and the new BL Infestor era in certainly played a role in the sheer volume of Zerg titles; also the fact that few tournaments took place in the periods when Terran(post Katowice 2020) and Protoss(spring 2019) had the upper hand in balance magnifies the phenomena to a point that Zerg as a race has won more than the two combined. This has lead to 9 ZvZ Premier finals since 2018(5 of them, unsurprisingly, in 2019), compared to 4 TvT and 3 PvP.
In the same timespan, Terran reached finals the least but performed pretty decently one they got there(if I am counting correctly, 3-1 in TvP and 5-5 in TvZ).
Zerg vs Protoss has been by far the most frequent matchup in Premier finals these years and, unfortunately, it has also been by far the most lopsided with an aggregate of 16-3(7-1 in 2018, funnily enough 3-1 in 2019 when Protoss just weren't reaching the final stage and 6-0 in 2020 as previously mentioned).
This result is the combination of multiple factors, in my opinion: Serral and Rogue(especially) being extremely proficient in ZvP and ruthless in finals, current top Protoss lacking killer instict at this stage of the game and ZvP's balance itself, undoubtly the least balanced matchup in Sc2 during these last three years.
If we look at those finals in detail, there have been TKOs like Serral vs Mana/Has or displays of horrenodus imbalance like Rogue's first Code S win;on the other hand Stats and Trap, in a meta that was at least even or favorable to Protoss, managed to lose to conclamated kongs like soO and Dark and Zest, earlier this year, wasn't stopped by imbalance at Katowice. I can't disagree with you on your final point, even if ZvP favoring Protoss more often/most of the times would have produced a much closer outcome in the finals(and less titles to Zerg).
I am still firmly convinced that Protoss need help in midgame's PvZ, possibly in a way that doesn't ruin PvT or TvZ; maybe nerfing roaches or ravagers could be a possibility?
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On November 17 2020 00:38 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2020 18:58 deacon.frost wrote:On November 16 2020 10:05 Xain0n wrote:On November 16 2020 09:14 deacon.frost wrote:So, we have 2 premier tourneys left for 2020, don't think Take will announce anything at this point. And we have(the order is kinda random) 10 zerg victories, the heaviest victories has Rogue(IEM, GSL), Reynor(4), Serral(2), soO(1), Scarlett(1) 5 Terran victories, TY(2 Code S), Maru(ST1, KoB) and Clem 2 Protoss victories, Astrea and Neeb (both 1 ) runner ups: 8 Protoss(I keep telling you it's the Kong race) - Stats(2), Trap(2), Zest(1), Astrea(2), Neeb(1) 5 Terran - Maru, Cure(2), Clem and Inno(both 1) 4 Zergs - Reynor, Serral(2), Dark Zergs already won more then the other 2 races combined even if non-zerg players win both TSL and GSL ST2. Also if both TSL and ST2 delivers a Protoss runner up they will dominate the 2nd places At this point I am starting to believe that a Protoss champion is nearly impossible and it's not based on balance. Both Stats and Trap keep collecting mostly 2nd places and rarely a title. sOs is a shadow of his former shadow and keeps on fading. Zest is innovative and everything, but is worse at getting to the finals. Technically the stats still remain unchanged*. If you remove Serral, the remaining Zergs still can rule the rest of the races(as Serral still has the most premier victories). Maru is still the biggest hope of Terrans adding 2 more titles(while TY has dominated the Code S) and Protoss is still the Kong race and you have to watch SC2 Masters NA to see them winning. Code S is once again the Terran bastion of hopes after 2019. As it appears the loss of Classic is huge and Zest cannot channel his inner champion. TY appears to replace Innovation as the 2nd hope for Terrans next to Maru. *from the Rogue's first WC title which brought him the infamous patchzerg article. What are you trying to say? 2020 hasn't been a terrible year balance wise. We didn't get to see more Terran victories because there weren't many Premier tournaments when the race was very strong, after Katowice. ZvP has been the issue again, 6-0 in finals this year! While it's indeed true that current top Zerg possess a much more effective killer instinct than their Protoss equivalent, the last time the matchup seemingly favored everyone lost their mind because of the perceived "Protoss infestation", leading to the nerfs we all know of. I am not sure about your conclusions. Why would Maru be the greatest hope of Terran, exactly? TY performed better this year and the rise of Clem seems more promising. As for Protoss, sOs has been almost irrelevant and you definitely overrate Classic(who won just as much as Stats in 2018-2019, but reached less finals); Stats and Zest will be gone soon, the upcoming EU youngsters need a couple of years so that the race needs help or, I fear, won't win big ever again. What am I trying to say? 1) Zergs are winning more than the other two races combined. Still 2) Protoss is unable to win a tournament unless we're talking restricted lower quality tournaments(which are still premier) while they reach finals 3) Out of 12 premier Terran titles in the last 3 years Maru has 7 of them, TY has 2, Innovation has 2, Clem has 1. Maybe that's why Maru. 4) Classic won the same as Stats but didn't get so many 2nd places. He's certainly not as Kong as Stats is. Also Protoss lost half of their good titles in him, less if you count the NA titles. 5) Talking about sOs because he's a 3-time world champion. The only other 3-time WC is Rogue. Also once Zest and Stats leave he's the most achieved Protoss if you count titles who left. That's because Trap's not winning anything. If you count the NA titles, then Neeb. The last Protoss champion once Stats and Zest departed is Neeb with his KeSPA cup victory and Patience with his HSC victory. Both from 2016. Let. That. Sink.6) As per usual you didn't notice the balance point, especially talking about PvZ. On November 16 2020 09:14 deacon.frost wrote:+ Show Spoiler +So, we have 2 premier tourneys left for 2020, don't think Take will announce anything at this point. And we have(the order is kinda random) 10 zerg victories, the heaviest victories has Rogue(IEM, GSL), Reynor(4), Serral(2), soO(1), Scarlett(1) 5 Terran victories, TY(2 Code S), Maru(ST1, KoB) and Clem 2 Protoss victories, Astrea and Neeb (both 1 ) runner ups: 8 Protoss(I keep telling you it's the Kong race) - Stats(2), Trap(2), Zest(1), Astrea(2), Neeb(1) 5 Terran - Maru, Cure(2), Clem and Inno(both 1) 4 Zergs - Reynor, Serral(2), Dark Zergs already won more then the other 2 races combined even if non-zerg players win both TSL and GSL ST2. Also if both TSL and ST2 delivers a Protoss runner up they will dominate the 2nd places At this point I am starting to believe that a Protoss champion is nearly impossible and it's not based on balance. Both Stats and Trap keep collecting mostly 2nd places and rarely a title. sOs is a shadow of his former shadow and keeps on fading. Zest is innovative and everything, but is worse at getting to the finals. T + Show Spoiler +echnically the stats still remain unchanged*. If you remove Serral, the remaining Zergs still can rule the rest of the races(as Serral still has the most premier victories). Maru is still the biggest hope of Terrans adding 2 more titles(while TY has dominated the Code S) and Protoss is still the Kong race and you have to watch SC2 Masters NA to see them winning. Code S is once again the Terran bastion of hopes after 2019.
As it appears the loss of Classic is huge and Zest cannot channel his inner champion. TY appears to replace Innovation as the 2nd hope for Terrans next to Maru.
*from the Rogue's first WC title which brought him the infamous patchzerg article. So, that's my quota for the rest of the year. Having won titles in the past doesn't imply you are expected to do it now; sOs hasn't been a serious championship contender for years. Why so much faith in him and not in PartinG who still plays, for example? Classic with his 5-2 in finals is less of a kong Stats is(5-9 overall but 1-5 in the last six) , that's true, but not reaching finals doesn't help winning titles; also, Classic lost the only PvZ final he got to play in LoTV. Similarly, Maru definitely won the most championships for Terran in the last years but considering his wrists issues and the rise of a new talent, he doesn't look like the Terran hope for the future to me; Clem is, when you look at his skill and his age. The rise of foreign Zerg prodigies and the new BL Infestor era in certainly played a role in the sheer volume of Zerg titles; also the fact that few tournaments took place in the periods when Terran(post Katowice 2020) and Protoss(spring 2019) had the upper hand in balance magnifies the phenomena to a point that Zerg as a race has won more than the two combined. This has lead to 9 ZvZ Premier finals since 2018(5 of them, unsurprisingly, in 2019), compared to 4 TvT and 3 PvP. In the same timespan, Terran reached finals the least but performed pretty decently one they got there(if I am counting correctly, 3-1 in TvP and 5-5 in TvZ). Zerg vs Protoss has been by far the most frequent matchup in Premier finals these years and, unfortunately, it has also been by far the most lopsided with an aggregate of 16-3(7-1 in 2018, funnily enough 3-1 in 2019 when Protoss just weren't reaching the final stage and 6-0 in 2020 as previously mentioned). This result is the combination of multiple factors, in my opinion: Serral and Rogue(especially) being extremely proficient in ZvP and ruthless in finals, current top Protoss lacking killer instict at this stage of the game and ZvP's balance itself, undoubtly the least balanced matchup in Sc2 during these last three years. If we look at those finals in detail, there have been TKOs like Serral vs Mana/Has or displays of horrenodus imbalance like Rogue's first Code S win;on the other hand Stats and Trap, in a meta that was at least even or favorable to Protoss, managed to lose to conclamated kongs like soO and Dark and Zest, earlier this year, wasn't stopped by imbalance at Katowice. I can't disagree with you on your final point, even if ZvP favoring Protoss more often/most of the times would have produced a much closer outcome in the finals(and less titles to Zerg). I am still firmly convinced that Protoss need help in midgame's PvZ, possibly in a way that doesn't ruin PvT or TvZ; maybe nerfing roaches or ravagers could be a possibility?
Can you read at all? That's why I don't want to reply to you. I. Do. NOT. Put. Any. Fait. In. sOs. It is just happening that he's the most acomplsihed Protossed once Stats and Zest leave.
Didn't read the rest after I raged at this. Like I twice try to say that I do not have any faith in sOs but that he's the most acomplished Protoss withtou Classic, Stats, herO and Zest in the game. That's how low Protoss has fallen. And he replies why do I put so much faith in him... WTF?
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On November 17 2020 06:49 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2020 00:38 Xain0n wrote:On November 16 2020 18:58 deacon.frost wrote:On November 16 2020 10:05 Xain0n wrote:On November 16 2020 09:14 deacon.frost wrote:So, we have 2 premier tourneys left for 2020, don't think Take will announce anything at this point. And we have(the order is kinda random) 10 zerg victories, the heaviest victories has Rogue(IEM, GSL), Reynor(4), Serral(2), soO(1), Scarlett(1) 5 Terran victories, TY(2 Code S), Maru(ST1, KoB) and Clem 2 Protoss victories, Astrea and Neeb (both 1 ) runner ups: 8 Protoss(I keep telling you it's the Kong race) - Stats(2), Trap(2), Zest(1), Astrea(2), Neeb(1) 5 Terran - Maru, Cure(2), Clem and Inno(both 1) 4 Zergs - Reynor, Serral(2), Dark Zergs already won more then the other 2 races combined even if non-zerg players win both TSL and GSL ST2. Also if both TSL and ST2 delivers a Protoss runner up they will dominate the 2nd places At this point I am starting to believe that a Protoss champion is nearly impossible and it's not based on balance. Both Stats and Trap keep collecting mostly 2nd places and rarely a title. sOs is a shadow of his former shadow and keeps on fading. Zest is innovative and everything, but is worse at getting to the finals. Technically the stats still remain unchanged*. If you remove Serral, the remaining Zergs still can rule the rest of the races(as Serral still has the most premier victories). Maru is still the biggest hope of Terrans adding 2 more titles(while TY has dominated the Code S) and Protoss is still the Kong race and you have to watch SC2 Masters NA to see them winning. Code S is once again the Terran bastion of hopes after 2019. As it appears the loss of Classic is huge and Zest cannot channel his inner champion. TY appears to replace Innovation as the 2nd hope for Terrans next to Maru. *from the Rogue's first WC title which brought him the infamous patchzerg article. What are you trying to say? 2020 hasn't been a terrible year balance wise. We didn't get to see more Terran victories because there weren't many Premier tournaments when the race was very strong, after Katowice. ZvP has been the issue again, 6-0 in finals this year! While it's indeed true that current top Zerg possess a much more effective killer instinct than their Protoss equivalent, the last time the matchup seemingly favored everyone lost their mind because of the perceived "Protoss infestation", leading to the nerfs we all know of. I am not sure about your conclusions. Why would Maru be the greatest hope of Terran, exactly? TY performed better this year and the rise of Clem seems more promising. As for Protoss, sOs has been almost irrelevant and you definitely overrate Classic(who won just as much as Stats in 2018-2019, but reached less finals); Stats and Zest will be gone soon, the upcoming EU youngsters need a couple of years so that the race needs help or, I fear, won't win big ever again. What am I trying to say? 1) Zergs are winning more than the other two races combined. Still 2) Protoss is unable to win a tournament unless we're talking restricted lower quality tournaments(which are still premier) while they reach finals 3) Out of 12 premier Terran titles in the last 3 years Maru has 7 of them, TY has 2, Innovation has 2, Clem has 1. Maybe that's why Maru. 4) Classic won the same as Stats but didn't get so many 2nd places. He's certainly not as Kong as Stats is. Also Protoss lost half of their good titles in him, less if you count the NA titles. 5) Talking about sOs because he's a 3-time world champion. The only other 3-time WC is Rogue. Also once Zest and Stats leave he's the most achieved Protoss if you count titles who left. That's because Trap's not winning anything. If you count the NA titles, then Neeb. The last Protoss champion once Stats and Zest departed is Neeb with his KeSPA cup victory and Patience with his HSC victory. Both from 2016. Let. That. Sink.6) As per usual you didn't notice the balance point, especially talking about PvZ. On November 16 2020 09:14 deacon.frost wrote:+ Show Spoiler +So, we have 2 premier tourneys left for 2020, don't think Take will announce anything at this point. And we have(the order is kinda random) 10 zerg victories, the heaviest victories has Rogue(IEM, GSL), Reynor(4), Serral(2), soO(1), Scarlett(1) 5 Terran victories, TY(2 Code S), Maru(ST1, KoB) and Clem 2 Protoss victories, Astrea and Neeb (both 1 ) runner ups: 8 Protoss(I keep telling you it's the Kong race) - Stats(2), Trap(2), Zest(1), Astrea(2), Neeb(1) 5 Terran - Maru, Cure(2), Clem and Inno(both 1) 4 Zergs - Reynor, Serral(2), Dark Zergs already won more then the other 2 races combined even if non-zerg players win both TSL and GSL ST2. Also if both TSL and ST2 delivers a Protoss runner up they will dominate the 2nd places At this point I am starting to believe that a Protoss champion is nearly impossible and it's not based on balance. Both Stats and Trap keep collecting mostly 2nd places and rarely a title. sOs is a shadow of his former shadow and keeps on fading. Zest is innovative and everything, but is worse at getting to the finals. T + Show Spoiler +echnically the stats still remain unchanged*. If you remove Serral, the remaining Zergs still can rule the rest of the races(as Serral still has the most premier victories). Maru is still the biggest hope of Terrans adding 2 more titles(while TY has dominated the Code S) and Protoss is still the Kong race and you have to watch SC2 Masters NA to see them winning. Code S is once again the Terran bastion of hopes after 2019.
As it appears the loss of Classic is huge and Zest cannot channel his inner champion. TY appears to replace Innovation as the 2nd hope for Terrans next to Maru.
*from the Rogue's first WC title which brought him the infamous patchzerg article. So, that's my quota for the rest of the year. Having won titles in the past doesn't imply you are expected to do it now; sOs hasn't been a serious championship contender for years. Why so much faith in him and not in PartinG who still plays, for example? Classic with his 5-2 in finals is less of a kong Stats is(5-9 overall but 1-5 in the last six) , that's true, but not reaching finals doesn't help winning titles; also, Classic lost the only PvZ final he got to play in LoTV. Similarly, Maru definitely won the most championships for Terran in the last years but considering his wrists issues and the rise of a new talent, he doesn't look like the Terran hope for the future to me; Clem is, when you look at his skill and his age. The rise of foreign Zerg prodigies and the new BL Infestor era in certainly played a role in the sheer volume of Zerg titles; also the fact that few tournaments took place in the periods when Terran(post Katowice 2020) and Protoss(spring 2019) had the upper hand in balance magnifies the phenomena to a point that Zerg as a race has won more than the two combined. This has lead to 9 ZvZ Premier finals since 2018(5 of them, unsurprisingly, in 2019), compared to 4 TvT and 3 PvP. In the same timespan, Terran reached finals the least but performed pretty decently one they got there(if I am counting correctly, 3-1 in TvP and 5-5 in TvZ). Zerg vs Protoss has been by far the most frequent matchup in Premier finals these years and, unfortunately, it has also been by far the most lopsided with an aggregate of 16-3(7-1 in 2018, funnily enough 3-1 in 2019 when Protoss just weren't reaching the final stage and 6-0 in 2020 as previously mentioned). This result is the combination of multiple factors, in my opinion: Serral and Rogue(especially) being extremely proficient in ZvP and ruthless in finals, current top Protoss lacking killer instict at this stage of the game and ZvP's balance itself, undoubtly the least balanced matchup in Sc2 during these last three years. If we look at those finals in detail, there have been TKOs like Serral vs Mana/Has or displays of horrenodus imbalance like Rogue's first Code S win;on the other hand Stats and Trap, in a meta that was at least even or favorable to Protoss, managed to lose to conclamated kongs like soO and Dark and Zest, earlier this year, wasn't stopped by imbalance at Katowice. I can't disagree with you on your final point, even if ZvP favoring Protoss more often/most of the times would have produced a much closer outcome in the finals(and less titles to Zerg). I am still firmly convinced that Protoss need help in midgame's PvZ, possibly in a way that doesn't ruin PvT or TvZ; maybe nerfing roaches or ravagers could be a possibility? Can you read at all? That's why I don't want to reply to you. I. Do. NOT. Put. Any. Fait. In. sOs. It is just happening that he's the most acomplsihed Protossed once Stats and Zest leave. Didn't read the rest after I raged at this. Like I twice try to say that I do not have any faith in sOs but that he's the most acomplished Protoss withtou Classic, Stats, herO and Zest in the game. That's how low Protoss has fallen. And he replies why do I put so much faith in him... WTF?
First of all, the tone of your answer is hilarious.
Faith or not, what do achiements count when your last tournament is five years old, obtained in a different game?
Creator won more than Trap in his career for what it counts, who do we expect to win a title next year?
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ZvP even worse in SC2 than in BW I see 
funny
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Northern Ireland26718 Posts
On November 18 2020 03:36 M3t4PhYzX wrote:ZvP even worse in SC2 than in BW I see funny
At least ZvZ is better
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EPT
