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On October 21 2020 22:10 La1 wrote:
protoss stood somewhat of a chance until the latest rounds of protoss nerfs which took away charge damage from zealots etc..
Since that patch protoss has just been obliterated at every turn by both terran and zerg. Previously protoss was probably stronger than terran but would get stomped by zerg. The recent round of buffs/nerfs have meant protoss have to pull out crazy tricks and plays to take games which is shown by the constant innovation.
No other race gets punished more than protoss for tiny mistakes and that is the weakness of the race.
So PartinG himself has admitted that PvsT is in favor of Protoss and Terran is forced to try to end the game in the mid game before it goes to the late game: streamable.com
PartinG, according to the translator, said that Protoss is "at an advantage in every state of the game." Those are PartinG's own words.
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On October 21 2020 22:34 xelnaga_empire wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2020 22:10 La1 wrote:
protoss stood somewhat of a chance until the latest rounds of protoss nerfs which took away charge damage from zealots etc..
Since that patch protoss has just been obliterated at every turn by both terran and zerg. Previously protoss was probably stronger than terran but would get stomped by zerg. The recent round of buffs/nerfs have meant protoss have to pull out crazy tricks and plays to take games which is shown by the constant innovation.
No other race gets punished more than protoss for tiny mistakes and that is the weakness of the race.
So PartinG himself has admitted that PvsT is in favor of Protoss and Terran is forced to try to end the game in the mid game before it goes to the late game: streamable.comPartinG, according to the translator, said that Protoss is "at an advantage in every state of the game." Those are PartinG's own words.
Recent games didn't really cement this tho, i think alot in tvp right now comes down to who has the better earlygame or early mid game.
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France12792 Posts
Dreamhack winter EU will give us a more interesting idea of the current TvP balance / meta than a single GSL ro4 match with hard preparation on the old map pool, to be honest.
TY early game was always weird enough to keep Stats under control so that TY could push at a late timing after taking his third without having to semi allin like all those 2base raven pushes we saw earlier in TvP group stages.
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On October 21 2020 23:33 Poopi wrote:
Dreamhack winter EU will give us a more interesting idea of the current TvP balance / meta than a single GSL ro4 match with hard preparation on the old map pool, to be honest.
TY early game was always weird enough to keep Stats under control so that TY could push at a late timing after taking his third without having to semi allin like all those 2base raven pushes we saw earlier in TvP group stages.
I think the 2 base raven pushes are just a meta development because protosses started to go very "greedy" on tech side and build bvery quick colossi with a decent fast thrid which leads to low unit counts and the raven being very good vs colossi, also i disagree that those are semi all in often enough terrans that continue to build scvs can transition pretty decent into a macro game out of it.
Edit: but i agree that one match doesn't mean the world, even tho i'd argue tvp is more balanced than some people from both sides seem to believe.
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Mexico2170 Posts
Meh.
I am becoming very annoyed with the state of Protoss.
It's not about balance in terms of strength. Protoss is just so rigid while Zerg and Terran are so versatile.
Just look at this series, how many different strategies Terran was able to do while Protoss just has one viable strat (robo). Protoss can mix up the start a little bit but in the end it's all the same.
I know being not versatile is part of Protoss identity, but I'm starting to think that's a terrible thing. Lorewise that's the reason they lost Aiur even though they were technically the strongest, and we have seen that in esports too. Both I'm sc2 and in BW protoss is the least successful race.
I don't think we're going to have a Protoss champion anytime soon. Protoss is technically the strongest (and easiest) but both Zerg and Terran have a higher skill cap and will outplay Protoss if they prepare right.
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Terran seems like they can really choose anything they want to do. Protoss is handcuffed at every point.
Revert the charge nerf and I think the matchup is okay again. It isn't fair that gateway can never handle a drop, Protoss can't have splash in all the places Terran can have DPS at the same time.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 22 2020 00:25 [Phantom] wrote:
Meh.
I am becoming very annoyed with the state of Protoss.
It's not about balance in terms of strength. Protoss is just so rigid while Zerg and Terran are so versatile.
Just look at this series, how many different strategies Terran was able to do while Protoss just has one viable strat (robo). Protoss can mix up the start a little bit but in the end it's all the same.
I know being not versatile is part of Protoss identity, but I'm starting to think that's a terrible thing. Lorewise that's the reason they lost Aiur even though they were technically the strongest, and we have seen that in esports too. Both I'm sc2 and in BW protoss is the least successful race.
I don't think we're going to have a Protoss champion anytime soon. Protoss is technically the strongest (and easiest) but both Zerg and Terran have a higher skill cap and will outplay Protoss if they prepare right.
Mostly because the talentpool is shrinking like it's a race. If you think about the top Protosses now and 2 years ago... damn, man.
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Its not looking good for protoss winning any time soon. Stats has millitary now, PartinG does too unless he managed to get it pushed back again. Zest/s0s have to go soon also not that either of them really looked like they might win a GSL recently.
Its just gonna be Trap/Zoun and maybe Classic will come back from his service soon?
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TY just a better player especially in Bo7. It is pretty obvious he knew exactly how Stats would play these games and countered it like anyone would expect him to.
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On October 21 2020 20:10 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2020 18:40 StasisField wrote:On October 21 2020 18:36 Vindicare605 wrote:On October 21 2020 18:31 deacon.frost wrote:On October 21 2020 18:29 Vindicare605 wrote:On October 21 2020 18:25 deacon.frost wrote:On October 21 2020 18:24 Vindicare605 wrote:On October 21 2020 18:22 deacon.frost wrote:On October 21 2020 18:17 Vindicare605 wrote:On October 21 2020 18:14 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:
The BC teleport is, always was, and as long as it's in the game, always will be a terrible piece of game design. Battlecruisers were literally not used outside of ultra late game TvT until they got Tactical Jump and moving shot. That's what it took to actually make them viable. The alternative to those abilities is just returning to the days where the Battlecruiser was a joke unit. Those are just the facts. Before it got those buffs, it wasn't a valid unit. After those buffs it's still niche but actually a valid unit. If you want those buffs reverted you're just admitting that you think it shouldn't be a useful unit for Terran, and that logic to me disqualifies you from talking about game design. It's still a bad design choice though. WIth a good end, so what? Still it's a bad thing, same with BL/SH. They're hated not because they're directly OP but because they're bad design Well you just answered with the easiest counter point ever. If Zerg and Protoss have all of these band aid answers to making their race work in Starcraft 2, why can't Terran? If you want to start making arguments based on "well I think that's bad design" two things, first that's a subjective argument and second, that's a rabbit hole that doesn't have an end. So what difference does it make? DUDE. Do you read my posts? I'm all for removing ALL OF THE BAD CHOICES. It was like 2 posts over yours original... wtf?  C'mon, I am advocating for a queen change for years now. Well my whole point is that it's an unrealistic thing to expect to happen at this point in the game's lifespan. We just got the announcement this week that there won't be any large redesigns of the game at the end of this year and all paid for content for SC2 has stopped. Do you really think they're going to go back and redesign the entire game at this point? No it's just not happening. I've been arguing against things like Warp Gate, for literally 10 years. I've been thrilled to see SC2's design develop from how frankly terrible it was in WoL. If Blizz is going to go forward with only minor tweaks from here, I'm cool with that. Compared to where this game has been in the past, the current design is satisfactory. I know, that doesn't stop me from being vocal about the fact there are bad design choices in this game. That's like saying - hey, politicians lie and steal, we can't change that so let's ignore it. Especially if people wanna go the way "sc2 is in a superb state and never was better"  (or in this case - BCs are bad design) You know what we did back in WoL when we had such large complaints about design? We as a community created and supported SC2 overhauls like Starbow. If you're still convinced that certain ideas are bad design, make a mod with your changes in it and campaign to get people to support it. This doom and gloom that people have about the future of Starcraft to me is silly because the Arcade and Map Editor exists and the possibilities for new things there are literally limitless, the community has just gotten so used to Blizzard doing everything that they just forgot that it exists. And Starbow died incredibly quickly and never had a large playerbase. This isn't the early 2000's anymore. People aren't going to leave an official ladder for a fan-made project made in a map editor. They'll either stick with what they have or go to another game since high quality competitive games with active dev support are pretty common now. Gaming has evolved. You know why it died? Because a lot of the ideas that were in it eventually got ported over to the main game some of them good (like the economy changes) and some of them bad (like tankivacs.) The point is that Starbow was born out of a LARGE community outcry about the game's design, not the small pitter patter of people on TL that we have now. A lot of the complaints that spawned Starbow eventually became a part of the main game, and that's why the movement died out, there was no reason for it anymore. Blizzard then started doing more of the fundamental redesigns on a year by year basis so that crap like the Mothership Core eventually died, or things like the Raven and Infestor got major redesigns. Blizzard started doing more to update the game and keep it fresh from where they were in WoL when Starbow was born. Starbow was born out of Blizzard doing too little when the state of the game was in really bad shape, for those of you that don't remember this was in the height of the Broodlord/Infestor days and every match came down to a 200 supply deathball fight. If Blizzard's updating of the game is going to stop, and the demand for redesigns gets back to where it was in WoL then the community can start looking at alternatives like what Starbow was. For right now though, the demand isn't there because the game's design is WAY better now than it was in WoL. The complaints about the design of the game are tiny and insignificant compared to what they were back then. So there's no need to go that far. Minor tweaks will suffice.
No, Starbow died because a community with a few thousand players where you're far less likely to find an even match and consistently have a high quality product cannot compete with a community with several hundred thousand and an industry giant and all of the other massive communities out there.
Also, didn't Starbow and LotV have different economy models? And hardly any Starbow features were added that I'm aware of. Starbow did not hurt Blizzard's playerbase enough for them to care. Blizzard started doing more updates because HotS came out and they were committed to reacting quicker to unenjoyable metas (HotS had more awful metas than WoL and LotV yet Starbow was completely dead by the end of HotS. Interesting... it's almost like Blizzard putting out bad patches in HotS didn't turn people toward a fan project with zero chance of ever becoming a real esport).
Also, Blizzard's yearly redesigns are modelled off of DotA 2. Starbow did not have this grand effect like you think it did. SC2 started seeing more frequent and more bold changes because a new expansion came out, they were told they were too slow to make changes, and other more successful titles were using that model for patches and updates.
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On October 22 2020 02:12 HugoBallzak wrote:
TY just a better player especially in Bo7. It is pretty obvious he knew exactly how Stats would play these games and countered it like anyone would expect him to.
Don't be ridicolous. Stats is at least a player of the same caliber of TY!
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On October 22 2020 02:19 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2020 02:12 HugoBallzak wrote:
TY just a better player especially in Bo7. It is pretty obvious he knew exactly how Stats would play these games and countered it like anyone would expect him to. Don't be ridicolous. Stats is at least a player of the same caliber of TY!
Based one what? In big moments TY has proven to be more than capable. Stats just got 4-0'd in last the last final. Sometimes he just doesn't play his best.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 22 2020 02:32 HugoBallzak wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2020 02:19 Xain0n wrote:On October 22 2020 02:12 HugoBallzak wrote:
TY just a better player especially in Bo7. It is pretty obvious he knew exactly how Stats would play these games and countered it like anyone would expect him to. Don't be ridicolous. Stats is at least a player of the same caliber of TY! Based one what? In big moments TY has proven to be more than capable. Stats just got 4-0'd in last the last final. Sometimes he just doesn't play his best.
Stats - 4 titles, 6 2nd places.
TY - 3 titles, 4 2nd places.
TY started playing SC2 at 2012, Stats at 2013. So based on that Stats is the better player He needed less time to acomplish more.
Editus> consider the fact, that most of the titles are from Korea where it ends with the BO7 
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Mexico2170 Posts
On October 22 2020 02:12 HugoBallzak wrote:
TY just a better player especially in Bo7. It is pretty obvious he knew exactly how Stats would play these games and countered it like anyone would expect him to.
Wonder if Protoss having 1 viable build might have something to do with that.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 22 2020 03:16 [Phantom] wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2020 02:12 HugoBallzak wrote:
TY just a better player especially in Bo7. It is pretty obvious he knew exactly how Stats would play these games and countered it like anyone would expect him to. Wonder if Protoss having 1 viable build might have something to do with that.
Or maybe Protoss having 3 top players if Parting's not tilting in the RO16 and Stats doing whatever today was
Edit> Sometimes 4, based on which Zest appears xD How could I forgot?
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What a crazy result. I wasn't counting out TY or anything but I thought Stats was the favorite and would never have considered a 4-0 as a possibility.
Is Stats done now or will he still be able to play in super tournament and Dreamhack Winter? If he's able to play in them hopefully he can win one of those.
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On October 22 2020 02:12 HugoBallzak wrote:
TY just a better player especially in Bo7. It is pretty obvious he knew exactly how Stats would play these games and countered it like anyone would expect him to.
Stats beat TY 4-2 in the semi-final last season.
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3 Lions
United States3705 Posts
Stats is the epitome of a standard protoss player. I don't think him losing to a player like TY (arguably one of the more unpredictable terrans) should be taken as an indicator of imbalance in the matchup. TY prepared better for the series and it showed. He was the better player today and it wasn't close.
Honestly I think Blizzard patched this game much too often and them perhaps dialing back the cadence of balance updates can hopefully drive more pro players to develop counter-play instead of just whining about imbalance. Or perhaps map-making can also help address some of these issues.
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On October 22 2020 02:08 adrft wrote:
Its not looking good for protoss winning any time soon. Stats has millitary now, PartinG does too unless he managed to get it pushed back again. Zest/s0s have to go soon also not that either of them really looked like they might win a GSL recently.
Its just gonna be Trap/Zoun and maybe Classic will come back from his service soon?
Don't worry we weren't winning even with the players still there, we're used to it.
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BerserkSword when Stats beats TY last season:
"Stats is just a macro beast"
BerserkSword when Ty beats Stats this season:
"Protoss is unplayable"
Glad to know some things never change.
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