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Let me get this straight, Stats stomped TY last season, cruised his way to first place on a group with Maru and Byun, but he drops a series to TY and the matchup is unplayable?
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nooo Statsuu
very well played by TY though, King of Prep
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On October 21 2020 18:40 StasisField wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2020 18:36 Vindicare605 wrote:On October 21 2020 18:31 deacon.frost wrote:On October 21 2020 18:29 Vindicare605 wrote:On October 21 2020 18:25 deacon.frost wrote:On October 21 2020 18:24 Vindicare605 wrote:On October 21 2020 18:22 deacon.frost wrote:On October 21 2020 18:17 Vindicare605 wrote:On October 21 2020 18:14 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:
The BC teleport is, always was, and as long as it's in the game, always will be a terrible piece of game design. Battlecruisers were literally not used outside of ultra late game TvT until they got Tactical Jump and moving shot. That's what it took to actually make them viable. The alternative to those abilities is just returning to the days where the Battlecruiser was a joke unit. Those are just the facts. Before it got those buffs, it wasn't a valid unit. After those buffs it's still niche but actually a valid unit. If you want those buffs reverted you're just admitting that you think it shouldn't be a useful unit for Terran, and that logic to me disqualifies you from talking about game design. It's still a bad design choice though. WIth a good end, so what? Still it's a bad thing, same with BL/SH. They're hated not because they're directly OP but because they're bad design Well you just answered with the easiest counter point ever. If Zerg and Protoss have all of these band aid answers to making their race work in Starcraft 2, why can't Terran? If you want to start making arguments based on "well I think that's bad design" two things, first that's a subjective argument and second, that's a rabbit hole that doesn't have an end. So what difference does it make? DUDE. Do you read my posts? I'm all for removing ALL OF THE BAD CHOICES. It was like 2 posts over yours original... wtf?  C'mon, I am advocating for a queen change for years now. Well my whole point is that it's an unrealistic thing to expect to happen at this point in the game's lifespan. We just got the announcement this week that there won't be any large redesigns of the game at the end of this year and all paid for content for SC2 has stopped. Do you really think they're going to go back and redesign the entire game at this point? No it's just not happening. I've been arguing against things like Warp Gate, for literally 10 years. I've been thrilled to see SC2's design develop from how frankly terrible it was in WoL. If Blizz is going to go forward with only minor tweaks from here, I'm cool with that. Compared to where this game has been in the past, the current design is satisfactory. I know, that doesn't stop me from being vocal about the fact there are bad design choices in this game. That's like saying - hey, politicians lie and steal, we can't change that so let's ignore it. Especially if people wanna go the way "sc2 is in a superb state and never was better"  (or in this case - BCs are bad design) You know what we did back in WoL when we had such large complaints about design? We as a community created and supported SC2 overhauls like Starbow. If you're still convinced that certain ideas are bad design, make a mod with your changes in it and campaign to get people to support it. This doom and gloom that people have about the future of Starcraft to me is silly because the Arcade and Map Editor exists and the possibilities for new things there are literally limitless, the community has just gotten so used to Blizzard doing everything that they just forgot that it exists. And Starbow died incredibly quickly and never had a large playerbase. This isn't the early 2000's anymore. People aren't going to leave an official ladder for a fan-made project made in a map editor. They'll either stick with what they have or go to another game since high quality competitive games with active dev support are pretty common now. Gaming has evolved.
You know why it died? Because a lot of the ideas that were in it eventually got ported over to the main game some of them good (like the economy changes) and some of them bad (like tankivacs.)
The point is that Starbow was born out of a LARGE community outcry about the game's design, not the small pitter patter of people on TL that we have now.
A lot of the complaints that spawned Starbow eventually became a part of the main game, and that's why the movement died out, there was no reason for it anymore.
Blizzard then started doing more of the fundamental redesigns on a year by year basis so that crap like the Mothership Core eventually died, or things like the Raven and Infestor got major redesigns.
Blizzard started doing more to update the game and keep it fresh from where they were in WoL when Starbow was born. Starbow was born out of Blizzard doing too little when the state of the game was in really bad shape, for those of you that don't remember this was in the height of the Broodlord/Infestor days and every match came down to a 200 supply deathball fight.
If Blizzard's updating of the game is going to stop, and the demand for redesigns gets back to where it was in WoL then the community can start looking at alternatives like what Starbow was.
For right now though, the demand isn't there because the game's design is WAY better now than it was in WoL. The complaints about the design of the game are tiny and insignificant compared to what they were back then. So there's no need to go that far. Minor tweaks will suffice.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 21 2020 20:08 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2020 20:00 deacon.frost wrote:On October 21 2020 19:47 BerserkSword wrote:On October 21 2020 19:21 Luolis wrote:On October 21 2020 19:18 BerserkSword wrote:On October 21 2020 18:59 Elentos wrote:On October 21 2020 18:56 BerserkSword wrote:On October 21 2020 18:51 Elentos wrote:
That move up the ramp costing him his probably last GSL game (at least until his service is done) is not the note you wanna go out on I'd think. Let's be real - what are the chances he'd advance to the finals even if he won that game? Slim to none i'd say. Better to be put out of your misery faster imo Well you can say that but that thought should never cross his mind. I expect Stats to at least do better than that. I mean what can you say? It's not just stats, it's Trap too BY FAR the best PvTers in the world, head and shoulders above everyone else, got smoked by Terran players. Can't be too harsh on Stats. If Stats and Trap get demolished, it is what it is, with regards to the state of the game. Yeah they got smoked by complete trash terran players like Maru and TY Nobody called Maru and TY trash to my knowledge, unless you actually are. I'm just noting the mental gymnastics in every premier tournament topic justifying Protoss players having to play flawlessly, like a machine, in an entire Bo7, or they lose. Like in this topic we have a poster chalking Stats losing the series up to spending 2 seconds in range of a concave of siege tanks on high ground (already down 3-0 mind you). Saying that some Average Joe Tournament Protoss wouldnt make the same "mistake" (more like a judgement call). ....Really? lol It's not an isolated incidence. Stats is literally the pinnacle of Protoss play in LotV, and he is repeatedly embarrassed like today or last Code S finals vs Rogue. As is Trap, and was Classic, the only other two making noise for the race. Whatever, hopefully SC2 dies out soon and we can all go back to brood war. Starcraft, at the e-sport level, was renown for all races being able to win at the highest level. Blizzard is probably right about slowly cutting the cord to SC2. Something is amiss here. Maybe more people than I think enjoy a two race game at the highest level. He did a lot of uncharacteristic mistakes though. I'm not saying Protoss is in a good state, but the last 2 games were not exactly the games you want to prove that on. Also it's quite interesting Protoss managed to get plenty of 2nd places(at least 2018/19) while winning almost nothing, compared to Terrans(Well, Maru ), where they managed to win, but almost none 2nd places. Not sure what to take of it, just find it interesting Stats didn't make "a lot of uncharacteristic mistakes" and even if you want to go forward based on that premise, it's the same narrative you see over and over again in threads like these.........."[Insert world class protoss pro here] made a lot of mistakes that's why he lost" sure thing chief! 
Dude, Stats attacked through a narrow ramp into siege tanks! WTF? He blinked on a ledge with marauders and again, attacked through a narrow ramp. And both time he attacked up the ramp. THat's a very bad way of attacking. This isn't exactly the thing you're looking for at the best decision making protoss player(your words)
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On October 21 2020 20:09 Morbidius wrote:
Let me get this straight, Stats stomped TY last season, cruised his way to first place on a group with Maru and Byun, but he drops a series to TY and the matchup is unplayable?
Every match up is unplayable until a Protoss wins something. It's the exact same reactionary bullshit that piloted the "Terrans are the worst whiners" meme for so long.
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Protoss champion 2022?
Anyways as frustrating as it is to see our best chance of a protoss champion in a while squandered, PvT has looked somewhat Protoss favored recently. Haven't watched the games (other than the last one) yet but it seems TY just had a great day and fantastic planning.
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On October 21 2020 20:12 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2020 20:08 BerserkSword wrote:On October 21 2020 20:00 deacon.frost wrote:On October 21 2020 19:47 BerserkSword wrote:On October 21 2020 19:21 Luolis wrote:On October 21 2020 19:18 BerserkSword wrote:On October 21 2020 18:59 Elentos wrote:On October 21 2020 18:56 BerserkSword wrote:On October 21 2020 18:51 Elentos wrote:
That move up the ramp costing him his probably last GSL game (at least until his service is done) is not the note you wanna go out on I'd think. Let's be real - what are the chances he'd advance to the finals even if he won that game? Slim to none i'd say. Better to be put out of your misery faster imo Well you can say that but that thought should never cross his mind. I expect Stats to at least do better than that. I mean what can you say? It's not just stats, it's Trap too BY FAR the best PvTers in the world, head and shoulders above everyone else, got smoked by Terran players. Can't be too harsh on Stats. If Stats and Trap get demolished, it is what it is, with regards to the state of the game. Yeah they got smoked by complete trash terran players like Maru and TY Nobody called Maru and TY trash to my knowledge, unless you actually are. I'm just noting the mental gymnastics in every premier tournament topic justifying Protoss players having to play flawlessly, like a machine, in an entire Bo7, or they lose. Like in this topic we have a poster chalking Stats losing the series up to spending 2 seconds in range of a concave of siege tanks on high ground (already down 3-0 mind you). Saying that some Average Joe Tournament Protoss wouldnt make the same "mistake" (more like a judgement call). ....Really? lol It's not an isolated incidence. Stats is literally the pinnacle of Protoss play in LotV, and he is repeatedly embarrassed like today or last Code S finals vs Rogue. As is Trap, and was Classic, the only other two making noise for the race. Whatever, hopefully SC2 dies out soon and we can all go back to brood war. Starcraft, at the e-sport level, was renown for all races being able to win at the highest level. Blizzard is probably right about slowly cutting the cord to SC2. Something is amiss here. Maybe more people than I think enjoy a two race game at the highest level. He did a lot of uncharacteristic mistakes though. I'm not saying Protoss is in a good state, but the last 2 games were not exactly the games you want to prove that on. Also it's quite interesting Protoss managed to get plenty of 2nd places(at least 2018/19) while winning almost nothing, compared to Terrans(Well, Maru ), where they managed to win, but almost none 2nd places. Not sure what to take of it, just find it interesting Stats didn't make "a lot of uncharacteristic mistakes" and even if you want to go forward based on that premise, it's the same narrative you see over and over again in threads like these.........."[Insert world class protoss pro here] made a lot of mistakes that's why he lost" sure thing chief! Dude, Stats attacked through a narrow ramp into siege tanks! WTF? He blinked on a ledge with marauders and again, attacked through a narrow ramp. And both time he attacked up the ramp. THat's a very bad way of attacking. This isn't exactly the thing you're looking for at the best decision making protoss player(your words)
When TY waltzed into a concave of colossus disruptor he didn’t lose the game. Just sayin
Anyway there’s no point in having an actual discussion here anyway.
Protoss legends are all just less talented and constantly make mistakes over the last 3-4 years.
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On October 21 2020 20:18 dysenterymd wrote:
Protoss champion 2022?
Classic will return!
Stats was heartbreaking today, I would chalk it up to that hospital stuff, but the group stage was after that so...
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I know Stats played far from perfect, and I know TY play incredibly well. It's still very frustrating as a Protoss player to see top Protoss consistently fail at the highest level to win anything other than Dreamhack NA and the occasional Super tournament (and maybe an Asus Rog).
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Seems like the Terran wheel of fourtune vs protoss just continues! Which 1 of 700 builds do you have to prep for or you die!
I think the problem is the second protoss makes any single mistake in a game their dead so you just can't play defensive vs terrans that just throw shit at you and hope something sticks.
I also think because protoss have to play in a very particular way to avoid an enormous amount of cheese (which results in instant losses) it means the very top players abuse the shit out of the forced protoss play
Did Stats play any different? - No. Did TY abuse that hilariously? - Yes.
the difference between reactionary zerg and reactionary protoss is that zerg has the queen which can stop everything.
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It's so refreshing to hear people bag on terrans constantly now instead of zergs. The winds of balance whining are fickle indeed!
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On October 21 2020 20:10 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2020 18:40 StasisField wrote:On October 21 2020 18:36 Vindicare605 wrote:On October 21 2020 18:31 deacon.frost wrote:On October 21 2020 18:29 Vindicare605 wrote:On October 21 2020 18:25 deacon.frost wrote:On October 21 2020 18:24 Vindicare605 wrote:On October 21 2020 18:22 deacon.frost wrote:On October 21 2020 18:17 Vindicare605 wrote:On October 21 2020 18:14 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:
The BC teleport is, always was, and as long as it's in the game, always will be a terrible piece of game design. Battlecruisers were literally not used outside of ultra late game TvT until they got Tactical Jump and moving shot. That's what it took to actually make them viable. The alternative to those abilities is just returning to the days where the Battlecruiser was a joke unit. Those are just the facts. Before it got those buffs, it wasn't a valid unit. After those buffs it's still niche but actually a valid unit. If you want those buffs reverted you're just admitting that you think it shouldn't be a useful unit for Terran, and that logic to me disqualifies you from talking about game design. It's still a bad design choice though. WIth a good end, so what? Still it's a bad thing, same with BL/SH. They're hated not because they're directly OP but because they're bad design Well you just answered with the easiest counter point ever. If Zerg and Protoss have all of these band aid answers to making their race work in Starcraft 2, why can't Terran? If you want to start making arguments based on "well I think that's bad design" two things, first that's a subjective argument and second, that's a rabbit hole that doesn't have an end. So what difference does it make? DUDE. Do you read my posts? I'm all for removing ALL OF THE BAD CHOICES. It was like 2 posts over yours original... wtf? C'mon, I am advocating for a queen change for years now. Well my whole point is that it's an unrealistic thing to expect to happen at this point in the game's lifespan. We just got the announcement this week that there won't be any large redesigns of the game at the end of this year and all paid for content for SC2 has stopped. Do you really think they're going to go back and redesign the entire game at this point? No it's just not happening. I've been arguing against things like Warp Gate, for literally 10 years. I've been thrilled to see SC2's design develop from how frankly terrible it was in WoL. If Blizz is going to go forward with only minor tweaks from here, I'm cool with that. Compared to where this game has been in the past, the current design is satisfactory. I know, that doesn't stop me from being vocal about the fact there are bad design choices in this game. That's like saying - hey, politicians lie and steal, we can't change that so let's ignore it. Especially if people wanna go the way "sc2 is in a superb state and never was better" (or in this case - BCs are bad design) You know what we did back in WoL when we had such large complaints about design? We as a community created and supported SC2 overhauls like Starbow. If you're still convinced that certain ideas are bad design, make a mod with your changes in it and campaign to get people to support it. This doom and gloom that people have about the future of Starcraft to me is silly because the Arcade and Map Editor exists and the possibilities for new things there are literally limitless, the community has just gotten so used to Blizzard doing everything that they just forgot that it exists. And Starbow died incredibly quickly and never had a large playerbase. This isn't the early 2000's anymore. People aren't going to leave an official ladder for a fan-made project made in a map editor. They'll either stick with what they have or go to another game since high quality competitive games with active dev support are pretty common now. Gaming has evolved. You know why it died? Because a lot of the ideas that were in it eventually got ported over to the main game some of them good (like the economy changes) and some of them bad (like tankivacs.) The point is that Starbow was born out of a LARGE community outcry about the game's design, not the small pitter patter of people on TL that we have now. A lot of the complaints that spawned Starbow eventually became a part of the main game, and that's why the movement died out, there was no reason for it anymore. Blizzard then started doing more of the fundamental redesigns on a year by year basis so that crap like the Mothership Core eventually died, or things like the Raven and Infestor got major redesigns. Blizzard started doing more to update the game and keep it fresh from where they were in WoL when Starbow was born. Starbow was born out of Blizzard doing too little when the state of the game was in really bad shape, for those of you that don't remember this was in the height of the Broodlord/Infestor days and every match came down to a 200 supply deathball fight. If Blizzard's updating of the game is going to stop, and the demand for redesigns gets back to where it was in WoL then the community can start looking at alternatives like what Starbow was. For right now though, the demand isn't there because the game's design is WAY better now than it was in WoL. The complaints about the design of the game are tiny and insignificant compared to what they were back then. So there's no need to go that far. Minor tweaks will suffice.
Starbow never had a significant player count aside from a few months due to TotalBiscuit hype. I'm pretty sure most players left because finding Starbow matches was much less convenient than just playing normal sc2 on the ladder.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 21 2020 20:42 FrkFrJss wrote:
I know Stats played far from perfect, and I know TY play incredibly well. It's still very frustrating as a Protoss player to see top Protoss consistently fail at the highest level to win anything other than Dreamhack NA and the occasional Super tournament (and maybe an Asus Rog).
Aw yeah, it was very hard to watch. But the game 4 showed just how unlucky and maybe already tilted Stats was  Didn't scout the BC den, did some very unfortunate army composition and on a top of it attacked to bad spots
On October 21 2020 20:43 mierin wrote:
It's so refreshing to hear people bag on terrans constantly now instead of zergs. The winds of balance whining are fickle indeed!
Until Terrans win everything in the next 2 years I am gonna stil whine about Zergs though
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On October 21 2020 20:13 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2020 20:09 Morbidius wrote:
Let me get this straight, Stats stomped TY last season, cruised his way to first place on a group with Maru and Byun, but he drops a series to TY and the matchup is unplayable? Every match up is unplayable until a Protoss wins something. It's the exact same reactionary bullshit that piloted the "Terrans are the worst whiners" meme for so long.
I mean some ppl may be serious, im just being snarky on all the terrans that complained about tvp the recent times while the mu looks pretty winnable for both sides
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France12790 Posts
On October 21 2020 20:26 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2020 20:12 deacon.frost wrote:On October 21 2020 20:08 BerserkSword wrote:On October 21 2020 20:00 deacon.frost wrote:On October 21 2020 19:47 BerserkSword wrote:On October 21 2020 19:21 Luolis wrote:On October 21 2020 19:18 BerserkSword wrote:On October 21 2020 18:59 Elentos wrote:On October 21 2020 18:56 BerserkSword wrote:On October 21 2020 18:51 Elentos wrote:
That move up the ramp costing him his probably last GSL game (at least until his service is done) is not the note you wanna go out on I'd think. Let's be real - what are the chances he'd advance to the finals even if he won that game? Slim to none i'd say. Better to be put out of your misery faster imo Well you can say that but that thought should never cross his mind. I expect Stats to at least do better than that. I mean what can you say? It's not just stats, it's Trap too BY FAR the best PvTers in the world, head and shoulders above everyone else, got smoked by Terran players. Can't be too harsh on Stats. If Stats and Trap get demolished, it is what it is, with regards to the state of the game. Yeah they got smoked by complete trash terran players like Maru and TY Nobody called Maru and TY trash to my knowledge, unless you actually are. I'm just noting the mental gymnastics in every premier tournament topic justifying Protoss players having to play flawlessly, like a machine, in an entire Bo7, or they lose. Like in this topic we have a poster chalking Stats losing the series up to spending 2 seconds in range of a concave of siege tanks on high ground (already down 3-0 mind you). Saying that some Average Joe Tournament Protoss wouldnt make the same "mistake" (more like a judgement call). ....Really? lol It's not an isolated incidence. Stats is literally the pinnacle of Protoss play in LotV, and he is repeatedly embarrassed like today or last Code S finals vs Rogue. As is Trap, and was Classic, the only other two making noise for the race. Whatever, hopefully SC2 dies out soon and we can all go back to brood war. Starcraft, at the e-sport level, was renown for all races being able to win at the highest level. Blizzard is probably right about slowly cutting the cord to SC2. Something is amiss here. Maybe more people than I think enjoy a two race game at the highest level. He did a lot of uncharacteristic mistakes though. I'm not saying Protoss is in a good state, but the last 2 games were not exactly the games you want to prove that on. Also it's quite interesting Protoss managed to get plenty of 2nd places(at least 2018/19) while winning almost nothing, compared to Terrans(Well, Maru ), where they managed to win, but almost none 2nd places. Not sure what to take of it, just find it interesting Stats didn't make "a lot of uncharacteristic mistakes" and even if you want to go forward based on that premise, it's the same narrative you see over and over again in threads like these.........."[Insert world class protoss pro here] made a lot of mistakes that's why he lost" sure thing chief! Dude, Stats attacked through a narrow ramp into siege tanks! WTF? He blinked on a ledge with marauders and again, attacked through a narrow ramp. And both time he attacked up the ramp. THat's a very bad way of attacking. This isn't exactly the thing you're looking for at the best decision making protoss player(your words) When TY waltzed into a concave of colossus disruptor he didn’t lose the game. Just sayin Anyway there’s no point in having an actual discussion here anyway. Protoss legends are all just less talented and constantly make mistakes over the last 3-4 years.
You realize that in 2018, where zerg dominated hard and terran was lonely carried by Maru, protoss still managed to get more money than terran in spite of the Maru dominance? That's pretty telling, your narrative that protoss is struggling so hard since 3-4 years is super bullshit. In 2019 since Maru couldn't carry all terran the difference is greater as well...
They even had to be nerfed at some point. And yeah a lot of protoss finalists lost to zergs in the finals, that's a bit because of some protoss kongs and balance, but protoss aren't doing that bad overall, especially not in 2020.
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On October 21 2020 20:58 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2020 20:13 Vindicare605 wrote:On October 21 2020 20:09 Morbidius wrote:
Let me get this straight, Stats stomped TY last season, cruised his way to first place on a group with Maru and Byun, but he drops a series to TY and the matchup is unplayable? Every match up is unplayable until a Protoss wins something. It's the exact same reactionary bullshit that piloted the "Terrans are the worst whiners" meme for so long. I mean some ppl may be serious, im just being snarky on all the terrans that complained about tvp the recent times while the mu looks pretty winnable for both sides
Pretty sure I remember some people trying to fix TvP in one of the very recent threads because it definitely needed fixing so that terrans could win, as well
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On October 21 2020 21:17 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2020 20:26 BerserkSword wrote:On October 21 2020 20:12 deacon.frost wrote:On October 21 2020 20:08 BerserkSword wrote:On October 21 2020 20:00 deacon.frost wrote:On October 21 2020 19:47 BerserkSword wrote:On October 21 2020 19:21 Luolis wrote:On October 21 2020 19:18 BerserkSword wrote:On October 21 2020 18:59 Elentos wrote:On October 21 2020 18:56 BerserkSword wrote:
[quote]
Let's be real - what are the chances he'd advance to the finals even if he won that game? Slim to none i'd say.
Better to be put out of your misery faster imo
Well you can say that but that thought should never cross his mind. I expect Stats to at least do better than that. I mean what can you say? It's not just stats, it's Trap too BY FAR the best PvTers in the world, head and shoulders above everyone else, got smoked by Terran players. Can't be too harsh on Stats. If Stats and Trap get demolished, it is what it is, with regards to the state of the game. Yeah they got smoked by complete trash terran players like Maru and TY Nobody called Maru and TY trash to my knowledge, unless you actually are. I'm just noting the mental gymnastics in every premier tournament topic justifying Protoss players having to play flawlessly, like a machine, in an entire Bo7, or they lose. Like in this topic we have a poster chalking Stats losing the series up to spending 2 seconds in range of a concave of siege tanks on high ground (already down 3-0 mind you). Saying that some Average Joe Tournament Protoss wouldnt make the same "mistake" (more like a judgement call). ....Really? lol It's not an isolated incidence. Stats is literally the pinnacle of Protoss play in LotV, and he is repeatedly embarrassed like today or last Code S finals vs Rogue. As is Trap, and was Classic, the only other two making noise for the race. Whatever, hopefully SC2 dies out soon and we can all go back to brood war. Starcraft, at the e-sport level, was renown for all races being able to win at the highest level. Blizzard is probably right about slowly cutting the cord to SC2. Something is amiss here. Maybe more people than I think enjoy a two race game at the highest level. He did a lot of uncharacteristic mistakes though. I'm not saying Protoss is in a good state, but the last 2 games were not exactly the games you want to prove that on. Also it's quite interesting Protoss managed to get plenty of 2nd places(at least 2018/19) while winning almost nothing, compared to Terrans(Well, Maru ), where they managed to win, but almost none 2nd places. Not sure what to take of it, just find it interesting Stats didn't make "a lot of uncharacteristic mistakes" and even if you want to go forward based on that premise, it's the same narrative you see over and over again in threads like these.........."[Insert world class protoss pro here] made a lot of mistakes that's why he lost" sure thing chief! Dude, Stats attacked through a narrow ramp into siege tanks! WTF? He blinked on a ledge with marauders and again, attacked through a narrow ramp. And both time he attacked up the ramp. THat's a very bad way of attacking. This isn't exactly the thing you're looking for at the best decision making protoss player(your words) When TY waltzed into a concave of colossus disruptor he didn’t lose the game. Just sayin Anyway there’s no point in having an actual discussion here anyway. Protoss legends are all just less talented and constantly make mistakes over the last 3-4 years. You realize that in 2018, where zerg dominated hard and terran was lonely carried by Maru, protoss still managed to get more money than terran in spite of the Maru dominance? That's pretty telling, your narrative that protoss is struggling so hard since 3-4 years is super bullshit. In 2019 since Maru couldn't carry all terran the difference is greater as well... They even had to be nerfed at some point. And yeah a lot of protoss finalists lost to zergs in the finals, that's a bit because of some protoss kongs and balance, but protoss aren't doing that bad overall, especially not in 2020.
Zerg didn't dominate hard in 2018 and Protoss as a race was perfectly fine that year; they collected a lot of second places because of the exceptional form of Serral and Maru.
In 2019 Protoss were pretty strong until they were nerfed and the Kong argument perfectly fits in this case; however, after the changes to Warp Prism, ZvP became too skewed in favor of Zerg. Despite further balance changes, the matchup is still the least balanced in Sc2 right now and it's basically what's dragging Protoss down since TvP is in reality a balanced matchup.
In 2020 Terran have been better than Protoss balance wise(they have in fact been the best race for months), the latter would really need help; thus said, TY played better than Stats today and deservingly advanced.
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On October 21 2020 20:12 deacon.frost wrote:
Dude, Stats attacked through a narrow ramp into siege tanks! WTF? He blinked on a ledge with marauders and again, attacked through a narrow ramp. And both time he attacked up the ramp. THat's a very bad way of attacking. This isn't exactly the thing you're looking for at the best decision making protoss player(your words)
I think BerserkSword has a really poor concept of what is effective and ineffective strategy in SC2. Attacking up a ramp, where tanks are already sieged, in a concave position, with Hellbats to tank at the front of the ramp, is a really, really, really, bad decision.
Stats had the supply lead before he went up the ramp. After going up the ramp, the supply became a lot more even.
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On October 21 2020 21:17 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2020 20:26 BerserkSword wrote:On October 21 2020 20:12 deacon.frost wrote:On October 21 2020 20:08 BerserkSword wrote:On October 21 2020 20:00 deacon.frost wrote:On October 21 2020 19:47 BerserkSword wrote:On October 21 2020 19:21 Luolis wrote:On October 21 2020 19:18 BerserkSword wrote:On October 21 2020 18:59 Elentos wrote:On October 21 2020 18:56 BerserkSword wrote:
[quote]
Let's be real - what are the chances he'd advance to the finals even if he won that game? Slim to none i'd say.
Better to be put out of your misery faster imo
Well you can say that but that thought should never cross his mind. I expect Stats to at least do better than that. I mean what can you say? It's not just stats, it's Trap too BY FAR the best PvTers in the world, head and shoulders above everyone else, got smoked by Terran players. Can't be too harsh on Stats. If Stats and Trap get demolished, it is what it is, with regards to the state of the game. Yeah they got smoked by complete trash terran players like Maru and TY Nobody called Maru and TY trash to my knowledge, unless you actually are. I'm just noting the mental gymnastics in every premier tournament topic justifying Protoss players having to play flawlessly, like a machine, in an entire Bo7, or they lose. Like in this topic we have a poster chalking Stats losing the series up to spending 2 seconds in range of a concave of siege tanks on high ground (already down 3-0 mind you). Saying that some Average Joe Tournament Protoss wouldnt make the same "mistake" (more like a judgement call). ....Really? lol It's not an isolated incidence. Stats is literally the pinnacle of Protoss play in LotV, and he is repeatedly embarrassed like today or last Code S finals vs Rogue. As is Trap, and was Classic, the only other two making noise for the race. Whatever, hopefully SC2 dies out soon and we can all go back to brood war. Starcraft, at the e-sport level, was renown for all races being able to win at the highest level. Blizzard is probably right about slowly cutting the cord to SC2. Something is amiss here. Maybe more people than I think enjoy a two race game at the highest level. He did a lot of uncharacteristic mistakes though. I'm not saying Protoss is in a good state, but the last 2 games were not exactly the games you want to prove that on. Also it's quite interesting Protoss managed to get plenty of 2nd places(at least 2018/19) while winning almost nothing, compared to Terrans(Well, Maru ), where they managed to win, but almost none 2nd places. Not sure what to take of it, just find it interesting Stats didn't make "a lot of uncharacteristic mistakes" and even if you want to go forward based on that premise, it's the same narrative you see over and over again in threads like these.........."[Insert world class protoss pro here] made a lot of mistakes that's why he lost" sure thing chief! Dude, Stats attacked through a narrow ramp into siege tanks! WTF? He blinked on a ledge with marauders and again, attacked through a narrow ramp. And both time he attacked up the ramp. THat's a very bad way of attacking. This isn't exactly the thing you're looking for at the best decision making protoss player(your words) When TY waltzed into a concave of colossus disruptor he didn’t lose the game. Just sayin Anyway there’s no point in having an actual discussion here anyway. Protoss legends are all just less talented and constantly make mistakes over the last 3-4 years. You realize that in 2018, where zerg dominated hard and terran was lonely carried by Maru, protoss still managed to get more money than terran in spite of the Maru dominance? That's pretty telling, your narrative that protoss is struggling so hard since 3-4 years is super bullshit. In 2019 since Maru couldn't carry all terran the difference is greater as well... They even had to be nerfed at some point. And yeah a lot of protoss finalists lost to zergs in the finals, that's a bit because of some protoss kongs and balance, but protoss aren't doing that bad overall, especially not in 2020.
protoss stood somewhat of a chance until the latest rounds of protoss nerfs which took away charge damage from zealots etc..
Since that patch protoss has just been obliterated at every turn by both terran and zerg. Previously protoss was probably stronger than terran but would get stomped by zerg. The recent round of buffs/nerfs have meant protoss have to pull out crazy tricks and plays to take games which is shown by the constant innovation.
No other race gets punished more than protoss for tiny mistakes and that is the weakness of the race.
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With a 2/1/1 semifinal split and pretty nice race distribution throughout the GSL tournament, I don't think this is the time for balance whine.
TY and Maru are simply exceptionally versatile players who excel in prep tournaments with long series. They abuse what they expect to encounter from their opponents, while making it extremely hard to know what to expect from them. Even in periods when Terran in general has underperformed, the race has had some success because it could still get results in this format.
It wasn't that long ago Parting knocked out Maru in a similar way, so it is not like other races can't do the same. Maru was also 2nd in his group...
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EPT
