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Z3nith
485 Posts
On August 09 2020 01:31 Cricketer12 wrote: Didnt know 2018 GSL v the World and Blizzcon weren't Premier tournaments Notice how I said Stats' Premier final wins  I meant as in all his wins in premier finals have come at the expense of Zerg, twice against Dark, once against soO and once against Solar. | ||
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
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architecture
United States643 Posts
I wonder if pros have explored dumping some supply into BC/raven just to defend so that they can more efficiently deflect backstabs. There's got to be no purpose to having 12 medivacs instead of 8 and a bunch of extra bio, and I wonder having 20-30 supply of BC/raven can respond efficiently and even counterharass. I guess my point is that 18m into a game 30 supply into MMM is much less flexible and abusable than 30 food in BC/raven. | ||
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Elentos
55593 Posts
On August 09 2020 04:14 architecture wrote: Seems like Terran struggles so much against late game runbys in all matchups. DTs, zealots, mutas, lings. I wonder if pros have explored dumping some supply into BC/raven just to defend so that they can more efficiently deflect backstabs. There's got to be no purpose to having 12 medivacs instead of 8 and a bunch of extra bio, and I wonder having 20-30 supply of BC/raven can respond efficiently and even counterharass. I guess my point is that 18m into a game 30 supply into MMM is much less flexible and abusable than 30 food in BC/raven. BCs are not particularly great against big groups of small units like lings. 30 supply of BC/raven is also insanely expensive to only use for defense (it's more expensive than 10 siege tanks). Outside of extraordinary circumstances you simply can't afford that. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27339 Posts
On August 09 2020 04:55 Elentos wrote: BCs are not particularly great against big groups of small units like lings. 30 supply of BC/raven is also insanely expensive to only use for defense (it's more expensive than 10 siege tanks). Outside of extraordinary circumstances you simply can't afford that. Yeah it would take too much away from your main force for sure. What about a few Raven clumps? 2-3 Ravens with full energy that’s a fair few turrets and the DPS on those is pretty chunky. Maybe stick them close to your most vulnerable base? Don’t think you could afford to have a huge amount of spare Ravens dotted about, but perhaps at a singular location? | ||
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Elentos
55593 Posts
On August 09 2020 04:58 Wombat_NI wrote: Yeah it would take too much away from your main force for sure. What about a few Raven clumps? 2-3 Ravens with full energy that’s a fair few turrets and the DPS on those is pretty chunky. Maybe stick them close to your most vulnerable base? Don’t think you could afford to have a huge amount of spare Ravens dotted about, but perhaps at a singular location? This could buy you a handful of seconds but you'd still need to bring actual units to defend. If spotted in advance it could also get feedback'd in TvP and do nothing, | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27339 Posts
On August 09 2020 05:01 Elentos wrote: This could buy you a handful of seconds but you'd still need to bring actual units to defend. If spotted in advance it could also get feedback'd in TvP and do nothing, Then you have a singular ghost with your Raven defence squad, s’all good. Silly theorycrafting aside can that many Ravens + turrets DPS down relatively small numbers of blink DTs anyway? Maddeningly curious but I stuck my PC in at a repair place so cannae do much mucking around. I have in my mind’s eye what TY’s base setup was like and where a good spot for them would be, it’s difficult to convey particularly clearly. I don’t think you’d want them forward to spot DTs too far out, makes them vulnerable to be sniped. If there’s a line between your 3rd and 4th you want them a little behind that line, maybe bouncing back and forth. More as a rapid response team of sorts. I don’t know, it’s difficult. In theory the unit with detection, a high DPS albeit short lived attack and that’s reasonably supply efficient vs alternatives could have some utility here. For larger DT forces, who knows? One small optimisation I could see if blink DT becomes more and more common in the meta is a supply depot half wall around outlying CCs so you’re not cutting surface area for mining but at least preventing a full DT blink surround. | ||
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architecture
United States643 Posts
BCs are expensive, but if you look at late game Terran there's just a problem of spending money on units that trade inefficiently. How many times have you seen people make liberators and ghosts and they just die without doing much? You obviously cannot afford stuff like BC on your first max anyways. But if you have a bank why not get some more expensive and powerful units. What's the point of getting the same food into MM and then ending up spending twice the effort and food to scramble and deal with the runby. Besides, these games P is literally throwing away 10-20 DTs to force T to react. That's fucking expensive. 10 DT's = 3 BCs. If in practice this doesn't work, then I'm also at a loss on how to play Terran late game because I don't see how you can create space and momentum without also using/having abusive units. | ||
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Topin
Peru10127 Posts
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[Phantom]
Mexico2170 Posts
The DTs might be able to blink in but not out. The two turrets buy you time while the PF/lib atack, and then you just clean it up Protoss is spending a lot of supply and money on these harasses so it seems fair the Terran has to spend as much. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On August 09 2020 07:07 [Phantom] wrote: I think putting a PF in the outter expansions, making a supply deport wall and two turrets isg old enough. Put a liberator over your mineral line where you have an orbital. The DTs might be able to blink in but not out. The two turrets buy you time while the PF/lib atack, and then you just clean it up Protoss is spending a lot of supply and money on these harasses so it seems fair the Terran has to spend as much. You need to have multiple planetaries plus turrets. And possibly tanks/mines/libs at each expansion to reliebly stop DT harass. Seems like a lot to defend extremely low risk-high reward harass like blink DTs but there's not really any other choice. | ||
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architecture
United States643 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4967 Posts
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~ava
Canada379 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27339 Posts
On August 09 2020 10:06 Argonauta wrote: maybe they should introduce a delay between blinking and dealing dmg? Aye, I’ve suggested that elsewhere. I mean a delay means you can still punish gaps, but you can’t nuke stuff instantly/blink on top of bio. I feel the intent originally and where ideally it should be is for getting your DTs away/not saccing tons of resources if you’re a diligent player, not how we’re seeing them be increasingly used. Which was cool with the novelty or as part of the Classic story but just feels sillier the more players are incorporating them better in lategame vT | ||
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nath
United States1788 Posts
I still think nothing should be done to re-balance this patch-wise, i think the solution is out there, if anyone has found a useful way to mitigate damage LMK! I think the proposed change of a post-blink attack delay makes them useless for hatchery sniping or charge+blink DT allin in PvT, both things I think should still be part of the game. | ||
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Kitai
United States885 Posts
On August 09 2020 08:28 Fango wrote: You need to have multiple planetaries plus turrets. And possibly tanks/mines/libs at each expansion to reliebly stop DT harass. Seems like a lot to defend extremely low risk-high reward harass like blink DTs but there's not really any other choice. I think a fairly low-cost and low-supply solution is turrets and mines at your planetary - sounds easy enough but that's only if you know it's coming. Problem is you have to scout the DT shrine ahead of time because protoss can just flip a switch and warp in 20 at once in late game - they don't have to slowly mass them like terran does for any late-game tech. | ||
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Jealous
10364 Posts
On August 09 2020 09:37 architecture wrote: Doesn't sound right, issue isn't just outer expansions (where your army is close) but they can run into your natural or main too. I don't see how you can deal with it cost effectively without a mobile solution. Can I just say that I am so happy that you are a part of the community all these years later after your God-like "even a dog can hit timing for dinner" comment? I think about it once in a while and it still makes me laugh. Thank you. | ||
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architecture
United States643 Posts
On August 09 2020 14:03 Jealous wrote: Can I just say that I am so happy that you are a part of the community all these years later after your God-like "even a dog can hit timing for dinner" comment? I think about it once in a while and it still makes me laugh. Thank you. lmao I had to search to find out what post you were talking about. glad I made someone laugh. Still lurk and watch pro SC after all these years. Cheers. | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On August 09 2020 12:22 Wombat_NI wrote: Aye, I’ve suggested that elsewhere. I mean a delay means you can still punish gaps, but you can’t nuke stuff instantly/blink on top of bio. I feel the intent originally and where ideally it should be is for getting your DTs away/not saccing tons of resources if you’re a diligent player, not how we’re seeing them be increasingly used. Which was cool with the novelty or as part of the Classic story but just feels sillier the more players are incorporating them better in lategame vT Blink DTs are fine imo. Each one is close to the cost of a siege tank. They need to be good. And they reward skill. Just because we see stats and parting pulling it off doesn’t mean everyone else can. The way DTs are used now is the result of nerf after nerf of the Protoss lategame and Terran lategame buffs. If we nerf DTs then Protoss should at least get its strong carrier back Imo the biggest problem in TvP lategame is the BC. | ||
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