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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51484 Posts
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Map Pool Semi FinalsResultsCSS: FO-nTTaX Awesomeness: Panda Banner: GSL | ||
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51484 Posts
Poll: TY vs Stats TY Wins (18) Stats Wins (18) 36 total votes Your vote: TY vs Stats | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13974 Posts
Heart: Stats | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24202 Posts
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aringadingding
476 Posts
Heart: Stats for sure | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
thus said, I can't root against TY either. | ||
Waxangel
United States33388 Posts
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
For the Rogue free-win and getting even closer to GOAT status against all the TL haters wishes: Stats For the sake of really good finals: TY Head and my prediction: TY 4:2 | ||
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outscar
2832 Posts
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Cricketer12
United States13974 Posts
On August 08 2020 06:30 MarianoSC2 wrote: Heart: Stats For the Rogue free-win and getting even closer to GOAT status against all the TL haters wishes: Stats For the sake of really good finals: TY Head and my prediction: TY 4:2 i don't get it. What free win does rogue get when he loses the finals regardless of who advances? | ||
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omop
42 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
Praying for a Stats victory this season though! | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2647 Posts
Heart: TY TY is going to have a hard time doing off brand builds against Stats defensive style. | ||
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
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IndyO
392 Posts
Also, have a drink every time Tasteless talks about TY being the only caster to play / win GSL | ||
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
I think TY will do it tho. keep in mind 2 shitty semifinals means we are guaranteed a sick final  btw who is replacing TY on the korean cast? | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On August 08 2020 13:04 IndyO wrote: Excited to see how TY approaches Stats compared to parting. I think Stats might be able to take this one though. Also, have a drink every time Tasteless talks about TY being the only caster to play / win GSL Starcraft drinking games are usually just alcohol poisoning with extra steps, and this one is no exception. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On August 08 2020 13:08 Andi_Goldberger wrote: I think TY will do it tho. keep in mind 2 shitty semifinals means we are guaranteed a sick final Has anyone ever actually checked this out to see if there's a real pattern? | ||
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SamirDuran
Philippines894 Posts
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OsaX Nymloth
Poland3244 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
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OsaX Nymloth
Poland3244 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On August 08 2020 13:16 OsaX Nymloth wrote: This is over already, is it? Not quite OVER, but it's definitely not good for Stats. | ||
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OsaX Nymloth
Poland3244 Posts
On August 08 2020 13:17 Fango wrote: Did a single medivac drop just kill a battery, 11 probes, 2 adepts, and a stalker... Better buff widow mines some more /s | ||
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SamirDuran
Philippines894 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
The mine only killed 4 probes then died, he just lost everything else to 6 marines somehow | ||
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Luolis
Finland7104 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On August 08 2020 13:18 SamirDuran wrote: next balance update ebay requires barracks That's why the void ray buff exists. So that Protoss can proxy shield batteries off one base. | ||
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OsaX Nymloth
Poland3244 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
On August 08 2020 13:20 ZigguratOfUr wrote: That's why the void ray buff exists. So that Protoss can proxy shield batteries off one base. 50 mineral less void ray would have clearly won that game | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
he is, bar none, the greatest protoss of LotV | ||
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On August 08 2020 13:24 BerserkSword wrote: idk why artosis talking so much trash against stats he is, bar none, the greatest protoss of LotV He's right in saying Stats is super consistent but kind of a kong at the same time. But that basically puts him behind only Maru, Serral, Rogue, and Dark in LotV really. | ||
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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digmouse
China6329 Posts
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Lexender
Mexico2647 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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Luolis
Finland7104 Posts
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OsaX Nymloth
Poland3244 Posts
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
On August 08 2020 13:27 Fango wrote: He's right in saying Stats is super consistent but kind of a kong at the same time. But that basically puts him behind only Maru, Serral, Rogue, and Dark in LotV really. He definitely was far above Dark before 2019 too. | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2647 Posts
On August 08 2020 13:29 Fango wrote: Did TY really need to go allin there? Yes | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On August 08 2020 13:27 Fango wrote: He's right in saying Stats is super consistent but kind of a kong at the same time. But that basically puts him behind only Maru, Serral, Rogue, and Dark in LotV really. You could say much the same thing about TY though. He also has quite the collection of semis and second places. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On August 08 2020 13:30 Morbidius wrote: He definitely was far above Dark before 2019 too. I'd say they were still pretty close though. Both had a couple trophies and then made ro4/finals of literally everything else. Dark in 2019 just decided to stop choking once he made ro4 all of a sudden and became the absolute best. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On August 08 2020 13:31 ZigguratOfUr wrote: You could say much the same thing about TY though. He also has quite the collection of semis and second places. Sure, and so was Artosis. | ||
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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Lexender
Mexico2647 Posts
nvm. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
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Lothcomic
21 Posts
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SamirDuran
Philippines894 Posts
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geokilla
Canada8240 Posts
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sudete
Singapore3054 Posts
On August 08 2020 13:41 geokilla wrote: So Stats knows there's a proxy and he builds up to 35 Probes? Why not more Gateways? How does he know it's a proxy for sure? Could easily be a natural on the other side | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On August 08 2020 13:41 geokilla wrote: So Stats knows there's a proxy and he builds up to 35 Probes? Why not more Gateways? Because then he loses if TY mindgamed him and just expanded to the back. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On August 08 2020 13:41 geokilla wrote: So Stats knows there's a proxy and he builds up to 35 Probes? Why not more Gateways? He didn't know there was a proxy. He scouted literally everywhere except there. He even wasted the sentry energy to send a halluc. Just monumental bad luck really. | ||
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geokilla
Canada8240 Posts
On August 08 2020 13:42 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Because then he loses if TY mindgamed him and just expanded to the back. There's no way he expanded the the back though. It takes too long to get that base up. If TY did that and Stats played standard, it's an auto lose for Stats. | ||
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Baffels
United States1486 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On August 08 2020 13:44 geokilla wrote: There's no way he expanded the the back though. It takes too long to get that base up. If TY did that and Stats played standard, it's an auto lose for Stats. Stats doesn't know that. He kept the adept at home in case it was 1 base aggression. He had no clue if TY was really expanding or not. Also it's important to note that TY opens with a full depot wall all the time. The fact Stats can't get his probe scout in doesn't say anything to whether TYs cheesing or not. | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On August 08 2020 13:44 geokilla wrote: There's no way he expanded the the back though. It takes too long to get that base up. If TY did that and Stats played standard, it's an auto lose for Stats. Of course he could have. People do sometimes take that base as a nat. | ||
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
ayyy | ||
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OsaX Nymloth
Poland3244 Posts
On August 08 2020 13:47 Andi_Goldberger wrote: I hope stats does the "rally collossus to 4 stalker" pushout again :D Here you go :D | ||
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
now we only have to get the "pull all my scvs and split off from all my tanks" scv pull again for a perfect repeat | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On August 08 2020 13:47 Andi_Goldberger wrote: I hope stats does the "rally collossus to 4 stalker" pushout again :D It feels so risky, but I guess they do so much damage vs marines that any swipes are worth it | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On August 08 2020 13:50 Fango wrote: It feels so risky, but I guess they do so much damage vs marines that any swipes are worth it You basically need a rock solid read on the timing of stim and concussive shells to do marginal damage. I guess the scenario where it's very good is if your opponent is doing a two base timing, since then you can slow them down quite a bit? | ||
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Mozdk
Denmark6989 Posts
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Lexender
Mexico2647 Posts
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Kitai
United States873 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On August 08 2020 13:54 Kitai wrote: I feel like TY could have just dropped the hammer when he was 50 supply up - didn't have to back out after sniping the nexus Possibly. But trying to end things against disruptors carries its own risks. | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2647 Posts
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Lothcomic
21 Posts
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fastr
France901 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On August 08 2020 13:58 Lexender wrote: TY should take a lesson from all the Maru games and learn that going lategame macro vs toss is suicide. It works for Maru against Stats, not so much against PartinG. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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Elentos
55550 Posts
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Lexender
Mexico2647 Posts
On August 08 2020 13:59 Fango wrote: It works for Maru against Stats, not so much against PartinG. I'm surprissed it worked for Stats tbh lol I don't see TY winning any macro game now. | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On August 08 2020 13:58 Lexender wrote: TY should take a lesson from all the Maru games and learn that going lategame macro vs toss is suicide. lol it has nothing to do with tvp stats is just a better macro player | ||
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F1rstAssau1t
1341 Posts
On August 08 2020 13:59 fastr wrote: TY won 4 cheeses in a row against PartinG. TY won both maps with all in and lost the 2 macro games. I'm starting to see a pattern... Yeah Terran can't macro as fast as the other 2 races. | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2647 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:00 BerserkSword wrote: lol it has nothing to do with tvp stats is just a better macro player Is Parting also a better macro player? | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:00 BerserkSword wrote: lol it has nothing to do with tvp stats is just a better macro player Stats might well be a better macro player, but literally no terran plays TvP for lategame. Timings are absolutely everything. | ||
[Phantom]
Mexico2170 Posts
I was worried for a second Stats had made a throw in the end when he lost all his Colossus | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
When he's on form, sure. PartinG winning so many PvTs with his first two units has just always made people think he doesn't have the best macro PvT as well. | ||
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Elentos
55550 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:02 [Phantom] wrote: That game was just a master class of macro Protoss. What a great game. Also great play from TY. I was worried for a second Stats had made a throw in the end when he lost all his Colossus The game was literally unwinnable for TY at that point unless Stats stopped playing. | ||
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
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Elentos
55550 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:03 Morbidius wrote: TY will just win 2 more games with BO wins for a perfect rerun of Katowice 2017. At Katowice it was a 4-3 and TY won the big macro game. | ||
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Elentos
55550 Posts
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:04 Elentos wrote: At Katowice it was a 4-3 and TY won the big macro game. The series was defined by tank pushes. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:04 Elentos wrote: At Katowice it was a 4-3 and TY won the big macro game. Hey Stats won the other not quite as big macro game. No denying TY got two BO wins in the last three games though. | ||
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fastr
France901 Posts
edit: I see Artosis and I share the same dirty fantasies | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
At least it wasn't the Stats vs INnoVation final from a couple months before. | ||
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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Elentos
55550 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:09 Andi_Goldberger wrote: high ground cc? wat Mindgames | ||
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Elentos
55550 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:09 Andi_Goldberger wrote: high ground cc? wat Map is so small the adept might get across in time to kill the SCV | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:09 Andi_Goldberger wrote: high ground cc? wat It's Submarine so it can be really annoying to defend the SCV | ||
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
im still getting accustomed to the car roast probe only meta lately, a couple weeks ago literally everyone would put teh cc lowground at all cost^^ | ||
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Mozdk
Denmark6989 Posts
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F1rstAssau1t
1341 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
But wow losing Submarine is really bad for TY from a series planning standpoint. | ||
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
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Mozdk
Denmark6989 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:13 F1rstAssau1t wrote: 17 probes death.... Let's go TY!! pikachu face | ||
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fastr
France901 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:14 fastr wrote: That TY opening needed to kill like 30 probes, he was so commited that his transition is incredibly late Nah he did enough damage to be fine as long as he held the counterattack. But Submarine means the counterattack hits really fast. | ||
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[Phantom]
Mexico2170 Posts
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Lexender
Mexico2647 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:16 [Phantom] wrote: I hate that stats is giving me hope because even if he wins he's just going to get massacred by a zerg in the finals TvZ is better than PvZ sure. But I don't see TY beating Rogue in a big match. He would have to proxy like a lunatic | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:16 [Phantom] wrote: I hate that stats is giving me hope because even if he wins he's just going to get massacred by a zerg in the finals A rogue final will be a massacre against any race I feel like holding that long as TY was already miraculous, was way closer than I thought it would be | ||
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Mozdk
Denmark6989 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:18 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Landing the vikings was questionable. Yeah I was confused | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
why TY??? did he thinks stats had 4 bases or something | ||
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Elentos
55550 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:19 BerserkSword wrote: OMG why TY??? did he thinks stats had 4 bases or something He was dead what you on about | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:16 [Phantom] wrote: I hate that stats is giving me hope because even if he wins he's just going to get massacred by a zerg in the finals if there are any terran/protoss players to beat rogue in a bo7, it's TY/stats | ||
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:16 Fango wrote: Just how many hellions does TY make here? Surely going for a tank after the initial push is better unless he plans on dropping hellions eternally I thought he was going for mech because he made so many. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
yea but it's g5 of the GSL semifinals....10 workers down as a terran i wouldnt gg | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:20 BerserkSword wrote: if there are any terran/protoss players to beat rogue in a bo7, it's TY/stats Well that's precisely the problem isn't it? There probably isn't any protoss to beat Rogue in a bo7. | ||
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:21 BerserkSword wrote: yea but it's g5 of the GSL semifinals....10 workers down as a terran i wouldnt gg he was about to lose 30 scvs to the next collossus shots | ||
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Elentos
55550 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:21 BerserkSword wrote: yea but it's g5 of the GSL semifinals....10 workers down as a terran i wouldnt gg He literally dies the next time Stats pushes in anyway and he just warped in. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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fastr
France901 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:21 BerserkSword wrote: yea but it's g5 of the GSL semifinals....10 workers down as a terran i wouldnt gg And that's why TY is playing and you're watching... As Demuslim would put it, he was dead as a dodo. | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:21 BerserkSword wrote: yea but it's g5 of the GSL semifinals....10 workers down as a terran i wouldnt gg He was down 20 workers already and had a much worse army. | ||
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Elentos
55550 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:22 Fango wrote: Stats finally going for a super fast scout is smart Finally? | ||
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Elentos
55550 Posts
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Mozdk
Denmark6989 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:21 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Well that's precisely the problem isn't it? There probably isn't any protoss to beat Rogue in a bo7. Classic had a chance. He took out Rogue in bo5s in GSL and blizzcon last year with creative builds. Although ro8 Rogue is a child compared to bo7 Rogue for reasons I don't understand. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
Fast enough that TY can't full wall anyway. | ||
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
lmao what a disable | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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Lexender
Mexico2647 Posts
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Elentos
55550 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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Elentos
55550 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote: TY's position is still good on paper, but he's heading into the lategame... Looking better for Stats by the second. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:29 Andi_Goldberger wrote: calling the archon drop crappy just offended thousands of terran players across the globe It was great. Stopped TY from pushing and milked all the energy out of the raven. Was it worth losing the archons? Probably not | ||
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fastr
France901 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:30 Fango wrote: It was great. Stopped TY from pushing and milked all the energy out of the raven. Was it worth losing the archons? Probably not He said it in general, not this specific game. It is very not crappy in general tho^^ he just mismicroed hard vs that auto turret | ||
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Mozdk
Denmark6989 Posts
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Lexender
Mexico2647 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
nvm he just emped | ||
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fastr
France901 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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Lexender
Mexico2647 Posts
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Elentos
55550 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
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fastr
France901 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:35 ZigguratOfUr wrote: 2/2 finishing at the 14 minute mark seems really late for TY. Upgrades don't matter vs disruptors nova :D | ||
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starkiller123
United States4030 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
INVISIBLE MAN STRIKES AGAIN | ||
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Elentos
55550 Posts
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Lexender
Mexico2647 Posts
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Kitai
United States873 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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Baffels
United States1486 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:37 Elentos wrote: PvT looks absolutely unplayable after a certain point ZvT looks better at this point? xD | ||
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F1rstAssau1t
1341 Posts
User was warned for this post. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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BabyMozart
54 Posts
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SamirDuran
Philippines894 Posts
On August 08 2020 13:13 SamirDuran wrote: damn artosis cursing TYTY called it.... | ||
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Elentos
55550 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:38 Fango wrote: You can't beat lategame DTs with just a few orbitals with scans. 3 orbitals will never have enough energy to keep up with it. You need turrets and bunkers in advance. Bunkers don't do shit cause the DTs just blink on them and one-shot. | ||
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Phredxor
New Zealand15076 Posts
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Lexender
Mexico2647 Posts
At least you have a chance if you turtle enough to sky toss, not great but still better. (Also I'll always remind every one that TvP winrates have been worse than PvZ ones for some months now) | ||
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Baffels
United States1486 Posts
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starkiller123
United States4030 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:38 Fango wrote: You can't beat lategame DTs with just a few orbitals with scans. 3 orbitals will never have enough energy to keep up with it. You need turrets and bunkers in advance. It's not even the lack of scans that are the biggest problem. DTs just snipe things so fast that if you scan as they blink in it's too late. So yeah, turrets and bunkers are needed. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:39 Elentos wrote: Bunkers don't do shit cause the DTs just blink on them and one-shot. Two planetaries at each base then. | ||
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Elentos
55550 Posts
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Cricketer12
United States13974 Posts
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Aesto
44 Posts
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[Phantom]
Mexico2170 Posts
DTs is one of the units where it's much more effective the better your opponents are. | ||
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HolydaKing
21254 Posts
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fastr
France901 Posts
2. TY prepared and played an incredible series, what a god 3. TY won 2 maps with proxies and lost all macro games 4. Stats is the best protoss and he plays the right way, I'll be rooting for him vs Rogue Beautiful series, sad and expected ending | ||
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Baffels
United States1486 Posts
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shockaslim
United States1104 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:38 Fango wrote: You can't beat lategame DTs with just a few orbitals with scans. 3 orbitals will never have enough energy to keep up with it. You need turrets and bunkers in advance. You also can't be everywhere at once, no matter how many scans you use. There where DTS everywhere like cockroaches and once you split up your army to deal with them the real Protoss force comes for the steam roll. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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Whatson
United States5356 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:41 [Phantom] wrote: I swear I don't understand why pros don't just build missile turrets. 1 or two per base. 100-200 minerals per base. Be already knew he had DTs. Seems 1000 minerals to not lose the game and protect 5 bases seems like a good trade. DTs is one of the units where it's much more effective the better your opponents are. What? DTs can just blink in and kill the turrets lol I think professional Terrans may need to start going mass-raven for a while late-game vP | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:39 Lexender wrote: At least you have a chance if you turtle enough to sky toss, not great but still better. (Also I'll always remind every one that TvP winrates have been worse than PvZ ones for some months now) Only on Aligulac which isn't meaningful at all. In bigger tournaments Terran was doing alright in TvP until relatively recently. | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13974 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:41 [Phantom] wrote: I swear I don't understand why pros don't just build missile turrets. 1 or two per base. 100-200 minerals per base. Be already knew he had DTs. Seems 1000 minerals to not lose the game and protect 5 bases seems like a good trade. DTs is one of the units where it's much more effective the better your opponents are. multiple dts will just dps down a turret before you even react, you'd need quite a few | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
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BabyMozart
54 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:41 fastr wrote: 1. Fuck protoss 2. TY prepared and played an incredible series, what a god 3. TY won 2 maps with proxies and lost all macro games 4. Stats is the best protoss and he plays the right way, I'll be rooting for him vs Rogue Beautiful series, sad and expected ending These are exactly my feelings | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13974 Posts
same | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:41 [Phantom] wrote: I swear I don't understand why pros don't just build missile turrets. 1 or two per base. 100-200 minerals per base. Be already knew he had DTs. Seems 1000 minerals to not lose the game and protect 5 bases seems like a good trade. DTs is one of the units where it's much more effective the better your opponents are. Turrets stop a guaranteed loss to slow drip DTs, but they don't actually stop them lategame when DTs just insta kill everything | ||
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Elentos
55550 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:42 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Only on Aligulac which isn't meaningful at all. In bigger tournaments Terran was doing alright in TvP until relatively recently. Even though it was the logical conclusion this would happen eventually. Disruptors and blink DTs are an absolute nightmare to play against and battery overcharge plugs a lot of defensive weaknesses in the early and mid game. | ||
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:41 [Phantom] wrote: I swear I don't understand why pros don't just build missile turrets. 1 or two per base. 100-200 minerals per base. Be already knew he had DTs. Seems 1000 minerals to not lose the game and protect 5 bases seems like a good trade. DTs is one of the units where it's much more effective the better your opponents are. they die in 1 second to the DT blink in? the only real solution is hard turtling with multiple planetaries, tanks, libs and OC farms. TY wasnt going for that style at all (more bio heavy trying to end the game faster) stats just got to the DT phase way earlier than he anticipated. | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2647 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:42 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Only on Aligulac which isn't meaningful at all. In bigger tournaments Terran was doing alright in TvP until relatively recently. Yeah Aligulac is not the best, that being said I find it curious how things work after pros whinned for weeks about the #TerranPatch. | ||
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Whatson
United States5356 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:41 fastr wrote: 1. Fuck protoss 2. TY prepared and played an incredible series, what a god 3. TY won 2 maps with proxies and lost all macro games 4. Stats is the best protoss and he plays the right way, I'll be rooting for him vs Rogue Beautiful series, sad and expected ending Expected the ending, still sad | ||
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Husyelt
United States832 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:42 Golgotha wrote: Rogue is gonna wreck Stats. Stats might lose a game or two vs Rogue, but he's going to crumple him in his hands like paper. Rogue will try one macro game, lose and then flounder in cheese. Stats will eat him up. | ||
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F1rstAssau1t
1341 Posts
Lulz | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:42 Golgotha wrote: Rogue is gonna wreck Stats. any other protoss, then yea stats is the most fearsome PvZer on the planet | ||
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Mozdk
Denmark6989 Posts
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[Phantom]
Mexico2170 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:41 shockaslim wrote: You also can't be everywhere at once, no matter how many scans you use. There where DTS everywhere like cockroaches and once you split up your army to deal with them the real Protoss force comes for the steam roll. Change DTs to medivacs, or hellions or mines and it's a similar concept. Or Mutas for Zerg. | ||
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:44 Andi_Goldberger wrote: they die in 1 second to the DT blink in? the only real solution is hard turtling with multiple planetaries, tanks, libs and OC farms. TY wasnt going for that style at all (more bio heavy trying to end the game faster) stats just got to the DT phase way earlier than he anticipated. The problem then is that Protoss can mass expand, build 90+ workers and keep on tearing terran apart with chargelot and DTs. | ||
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Whatson
United States5356 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:45 F1rstAssau1t wrote: So Terran gotta end the game fast vs Zerg and Protoss or be doom. Lulz Well, late-game TvZ is decent, TvP late-game has always been a nightmare. Disruptor + Collosi + Archon/HT + DTs? Good luck | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:46 [Phantom] wrote: Change DTs to medivacs, or hellions or mines and it's a similar concept. Or Mutas for Zerg. No one makes mass mutas, hellions, or mines in the lategame because they are easily countered. The DPS of DTs, combined with the fact you can warp in 10 at a time, and they have bloody blink, makes them 100x as viable for lategame harass as any of those. | ||
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Whatson
United States5356 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:46 [Phantom] wrote: Change DTs to medivacs, or hellions or mines and it's a similar concept. Or Mutas for Zerg. Come on, you know very well that none of those units are similar to DTs at all lol Mines are the closest thing, and even they need to actually burrow in order to do damage and get cloaked Now if mines could teleport and were permacloaked? Then sure. | ||
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Elentos
55550 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:46 [Phantom] wrote: Change DTs to medivacs, or hellions or mines and it's a similar concept. Or Mutas for Zerg. Those things are easier to defend the longer the game goes on just because your vision expands. Blink DTs aren't covered by just vision and they need a very dedicated response cause it's usually whole groups of them and you need to make sure whatever you send to defend doesn't get blunked on and dies. But it also has to be little enough so that you don't lose any other front. | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13974 Posts
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fastr
France901 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:48 Whatson wrote: Well, late-game TvZ is decent, TvP late-game has always been a nightmare. Disruptor + Collosi + Archon/HT + DTs? Good luck TvZ is in a great spot, bio late-game is a bit harder but the micro monsters can make it work, and if you survive the mid game with mech you're usually in a great spot. TvP... Well after this series there's nothing to add. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
And having 30 supply of units + detection everywhere is impossible. | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:50 Elentos wrote: Those things are easier to defend the longer the game goes on just because your vision expands. Blink DTs aren't covered by just vision and they need a very dedicated response cause it's usually whole groups of them and you need to make sure whatever you send to defend doesn't get blunked on and dies. But it also has to be little enough so that you don't lose any other front. And disruptors with the main army mean you have a good shot at holding off the terran for a while even if your main army has a much smaller supply. | ||
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shockaslim
United States1104 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:46 [Phantom] wrote: Change DTs to medivacs, or hellions or mines and it's a similar concept. Or Mutas for Zerg. But with medivacs and mutas at least a sizeable chunk of actual army is cut off. With DTs they are doing crazy damage, can slip in easily, and are not really part of the deathball. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:50 Whatson wrote: Come on, you know very well that none of those units are similar to DTs at all lol Mines are the closest thing, and even they need to actually burrow in order to do damage and get cloaked Now if mines could teleport and were permacloaked? Then sure. Also mines don't kill planetaries before any human being can process the alert notification. | ||
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Whatson
United States5356 Posts
TvP still boils down to not letting Protoss get to 4 bases. | ||
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:50 Whatson wrote: Come on, you know very well that none of those units are similar to DTs at all lol Mines are the closest thing, and even they need to actually burrow in order to do damage and get cloaked Now if mines could teleport and were permacloaked? Then sure. And kept shooting when burrowed, while being able to attack buildings. | ||
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serendipitous
Canada195 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:55 Whatson wrote: Sometime in the past year Protosses realized that DTs actually do insane damage even when uncloaked and can easily replace zealots lol TvP still boils down to not letting Protoss get to 4 bases. It would be fine if Terran could secure 4 or 5 bases as easily as Protoss but that hasn't been a thing since Kings Cove | ||
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Elentos
55550 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:58 Elentos wrote: My biggest worry for Stats is that I don't know what he plays for in PvZ. He's a defensive macro player by nature, but that doesn't seem great. There's no figured out comp to go into that I'm aware of. How you're meant to go about playing PvT was pretty figured out already. In the Ro16 Stats did get a good position against Rogue with double stargate phoenix before kinda throwing. I'd be happy if we saw more of that type of stuff instead of adepts. | ||
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Elentos
55550 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:58 ZigguratOfUr wrote: On the flip-side this DT stuff is still a sorta recent development so hopefully the meta still has room to develop. And once it fails to do so the nerfs to this are relatively straightforward (much more so than PvZ's problems). I think the only way to actually play against that properly is the ultra turtly style TY did vs PartinG on Nightshade. And I don't think you can do that on this map pool except on Eternal and Ice and Chrome. Like Inno did it in Douyu Cup the other day on Ice and Chrome (also vs PartinG), just camping until PartinG got too inefficient. But I don't think that was optimal Protoss play either. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:56 Morbidius wrote: And kept shooting when burrowed, while being able to attack buildings. Also mines do damage once then are dead supply for 40 seconds. DTs kill one base then blink to the next | ||
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Snijjer
United States989 Posts
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rayl991
Afghanistan80 Posts
On August 08 2020 14:51 fastr wrote: TvZ is in a great spot, bio late-game is a bit harder but the micro monsters can make it work, and if you survive the mid game with mech you're usually in a great spot. TvP... Well after this series there's nothing to add. lol no. TvZ late game is not decent when its just the zerg spamming banes with superior economy and production capabilities. Terran might as well gg if they did no significant damage to Zerg in the early game. The problem with TvP late game imo is the amount of splash Protoss can utilize (Storm, Distruptor, Archon, Colllosi) compared to the Terran (Static tanks/mines + emp that doesn't kill). | ||
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Russano
United States425 Posts
He looked so great in this series - wonderful as long as he was allowed by TY to have more than 1 gateway worth of production. | ||
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Poopi
France12875 Posts
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Elentos
55550 Posts
On August 08 2020 17:30 Poopi wrote: How was the series? Poor TY Well the short version is that TY lost every game that went past the 6 minute mark. There were some decent macro games but tbh it didn't really look like TY was gonna win one of those, Stats was mostly in control. | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
Stats looked a level above TY today, well played by him. Now he will get dumpstered in the finals because Rogue bo7 and ZvP... | ||
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Z3nith
485 Posts
On August 08 2020 18:17 MarianoSC2 wrote: It's impressive that TY came this far to be honest. It just shows that he is clearly the smartest player and best tactician out there because in terms of mechanics there are for sure better players. Also TY form hasn't been the best for a long time. Mostly when I saw him play he went for cheese or super agro. Stats looked a level above TY today, well played by him. Now he will get dumpstered in the finals because Rogue bo7 and ZvP... Yeah ZvP is bad I agree but as a little fuel to the statistical fire Stats has won all his premier finals wins against Zerg opposition and is the last player to hand Rogue an offline loss (admittedly in a Bo3). Also he's just broke his losing streak against TY. | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
On August 08 2020 18:29 Z3nith wrote: Yeah ZvP is bad I agree but as a little fuel to the statistical fire Stats has won all his premier finals wins against Zerg opposition and is the last player to hand Rogue an offline loss (admittedly in a Bo3). Also he's just broke his losing streak against TY. Even though I am a big Rogue fan, I would be equally happy if Stats made it. Just don't see it happening. Playing solid against Zerg is not enough and Rogue is just too unpredictable to prepare for in a bo7. But we will see maybe Stats can bring some magic and at least make it a game  | ||
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Z3nith
485 Posts
On August 08 2020 18:35 MarianoSC2 wrote: Even though I am a big Rogue fan, I would be equally happy if Stats made it. Just don't see it happening. Playing solid against Zerg is not enough and Rogue is just too unpredictable to prepare for in a bo7. But we will see maybe Stats can bring some magic and at least make it a game Yeah Rogue is definitely favoured but if anyone can do it it's Stats. | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4943 Posts
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4943 Posts
On August 08 2020 18:52 deacon.frost wrote: Everybody - Terran patch. Code S as the most Terran favored tournament - Nelson laughs at all the people Last season was a TvT finals, so this evens things out | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On August 08 2020 19:45 Argonauta wrote: Last season was a TvT finals, so this evens things out Terran patch - no terrans in the finals, sure, buddy | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4943 Posts
On August 08 2020 19:50 deacon.frost wrote: Terran patch - no terrans in the finals, sure, buddy blame Maru's wrists | ||
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Penev
28477 Posts
King of Nyduss Slayer pls "There's nothing embarrassing about wearing a cape when you're invisible Artosis" | ||
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Jacenoob
299 Posts
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ilax30
720 Posts
On August 08 2020 19:50 deacon.frost wrote: Terran patch - no terrans in the finals, sure, buddy I mean last season it was a "terran patch" But this season is a different patch to last season so no its clearly not a terran patch anymore and barely any1 is saying it is.. So maybe stop using that phrase acting like it still is? | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4943 Posts
On August 08 2020 20:43 Jacenoob wrote: How about "The game is perfectly balanced at this point and the better player wins"? but then how can I justify that my fav player underperforms? | ||
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JJH777
United States4407 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25283 Posts
On August 08 2020 22:45 JJH777 wrote: There was never a Terran patch. People just over reacted to a single GSL which was obviously a fluke even at the time. Just go back and watch the way Inno beat Zest and Trap. That was so obviously not a sustainable way to win PvT. Zerg only underperformed because Scarlett cheesed out Rogue and Dark is slumping. There was never a period this year where TvZ truly favored Terran by any significant margin. Reminds me of that real Protoss dominated Super Tournament eliciting the same reaction. The pool of really top, top players is quite small and a few results can make a really unrepresentative bracket. Happened then and I’d argue people went overboard about P (and did at the time), think the same happened with T. Actually looking at some of the games as you say, some of what Terran was pulling off was potent in some of those games, but equally never felt a stable, solid way to approach matchups in the long run. Be it the rumoured wrists or just a more mental slump, take Dark the best ZvTer in the world’s level down a little and have Rogue cheesed out and those are big blows for Zerg in a season. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25283 Posts
Come on Stats, for Aiur! I love both players, I mean who can’t love Stats, he makes Protoss almost bearable, so long as he can do the business in the final. DT blink is, em. Yes... Pretty broken in that stage of the match, in that particular matchup, against that particular race. Stats did play bloody well too so not detracting from his triumph today. Probably not nearly as bad at lower levels where players are more static with armies and overbuild static D, but when top players have to cut corners and be constantly active they’re insane. I would personally at least look at an attack cooldown after a blink, so they can’t nuke buildings instantly without a defender having a chance, or jump onto units as effectively. I think the niche should be in preserving DTs so you’re not just saccing them and haemorrhaging money and giving them more lategame utility than being used to nuke things before even AlphaStar could react. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On August 08 2020 22:45 JJH777 wrote: There was never a Terran patch. People just over reacted to a single GSL which was obviously a fluke even at the time. Just go back and watch the way Inno beat Zest and Trap. That was so obviously not a sustainable way to win PvT. Zerg only underperformed because Scarlett cheesed out Rogue and Dark is slumping. There was never a period this year where TvZ truly favored Terran by any significant margin. That's just false, maps favored Terran; they had an advantage against both Zerg and Protoss but the map pool is different now. Protoss Spring last year was indeed a fluke because without no balance changes and identical map pool Zerg were starting to adjust. | ||
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dysenterymd
1237 Posts
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JJH777
United States4407 Posts
On August 09 2020 00:17 Xain0n wrote: That's just false, maps favored Terran; they had an advantage against both Zerg and Protoss but the map pool is different now. Protoss Spring last year was indeed a fluke because without no balance changes and identical map pool Zerg were starting to adjust. IEM was on the same patch and had only like 3 different maps (so with vetos the pool could be basically only maps that were in IEM for most of the tournament if Z/P so chose) and had all the same Terrans and only 2 made the top 12. Super Tournament had the same map pool as the ro24 of that GSL season and while Terran did well at and won Super Tournament it wasn't a big over performance the way GSL S1 was. Results would have balanced back out again with the same map pool. TSL5 was mostly the same map pool too and Terran did not over perform there much at all. | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13974 Posts
On August 08 2020 18:29 Z3nith wrote: Yeah ZvP is bad I agree but as a little fuel to the statistical fire Stats has won all his premier finals wins against Zerg opposition and is the last player to hand Rogue an offline loss (admittedly in a Bo3). Also he's just broke his losing streak against TY. Didnt know 2018 GSL v the World and Blizzcon weren't Premier tournaments | ||
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Z3nith
485 Posts
On August 09 2020 01:31 Cricketer12 wrote: Didnt know 2018 GSL v the World and Blizzcon weren't Premier tournaments Notice how I said Stats' Premier final wins  I meant as in all his wins in premier finals have come at the expense of Zerg, twice against Dark, once against soO and once against Solar. | ||
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
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architecture
United States643 Posts
I wonder if pros have explored dumping some supply into BC/raven just to defend so that they can more efficiently deflect backstabs. There's got to be no purpose to having 12 medivacs instead of 8 and a bunch of extra bio, and I wonder having 20-30 supply of BC/raven can respond efficiently and even counterharass. I guess my point is that 18m into a game 30 supply into MMM is much less flexible and abusable than 30 food in BC/raven. | ||
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Elentos
55550 Posts
On August 09 2020 04:14 architecture wrote: Seems like Terran struggles so much against late game runbys in all matchups. DTs, zealots, mutas, lings. I wonder if pros have explored dumping some supply into BC/raven just to defend so that they can more efficiently deflect backstabs. There's got to be no purpose to having 12 medivacs instead of 8 and a bunch of extra bio, and I wonder having 20-30 supply of BC/raven can respond efficiently and even counterharass. I guess my point is that 18m into a game 30 supply into MMM is much less flexible and abusable than 30 food in BC/raven. BCs are not particularly great against big groups of small units like lings. 30 supply of BC/raven is also insanely expensive to only use for defense (it's more expensive than 10 siege tanks). Outside of extraordinary circumstances you simply can't afford that. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25283 Posts
On August 09 2020 04:55 Elentos wrote: BCs are not particularly great against big groups of small units like lings. 30 supply of BC/raven is also insanely expensive to only use for defense (it's more expensive than 10 siege tanks). Outside of extraordinary circumstances you simply can't afford that. Yeah it would take too much away from your main force for sure. What about a few Raven clumps? 2-3 Ravens with full energy that’s a fair few turrets and the DPS on those is pretty chunky. Maybe stick them close to your most vulnerable base? Don’t think you could afford to have a huge amount of spare Ravens dotted about, but perhaps at a singular location? | ||
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Elentos
55550 Posts
On August 09 2020 04:58 Wombat_NI wrote: Yeah it would take too much away from your main force for sure. What about a few Raven clumps? 2-3 Ravens with full energy that’s a fair few turrets and the DPS on those is pretty chunky. Maybe stick them close to your most vulnerable base? Don’t think you could afford to have a huge amount of spare Ravens dotted about, but perhaps at a singular location? This could buy you a handful of seconds but you'd still need to bring actual units to defend. If spotted in advance it could also get feedback'd in TvP and do nothing, | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25283 Posts
On August 09 2020 05:01 Elentos wrote: This could buy you a handful of seconds but you'd still need to bring actual units to defend. If spotted in advance it could also get feedback'd in TvP and do nothing, Then you have a singular ghost with your Raven defence squad, s’all good. Silly theorycrafting aside can that many Ravens + turrets DPS down relatively small numbers of blink DTs anyway? Maddeningly curious but I stuck my PC in at a repair place so cannae do much mucking around. I have in my mind’s eye what TY’s base setup was like and where a good spot for them would be, it’s difficult to convey particularly clearly. I don’t think you’d want them forward to spot DTs too far out, makes them vulnerable to be sniped. If there’s a line between your 3rd and 4th you want them a little behind that line, maybe bouncing back and forth. More as a rapid response team of sorts. I don’t know, it’s difficult. In theory the unit with detection, a high DPS albeit short lived attack and that’s reasonably supply efficient vs alternatives could have some utility here. For larger DT forces, who knows? One small optimisation I could see if blink DT becomes more and more common in the meta is a supply depot half wall around outlying CCs so you’re not cutting surface area for mining but at least preventing a full DT blink surround. | ||
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architecture
United States643 Posts
BCs are expensive, but if you look at late game Terran there's just a problem of spending money on units that trade inefficiently. How many times have you seen people make liberators and ghosts and they just die without doing much? You obviously cannot afford stuff like BC on your first max anyways. But if you have a bank why not get some more expensive and powerful units. What's the point of getting the same food into MM and then ending up spending twice the effort and food to scramble and deal with the runby. Besides, these games P is literally throwing away 10-20 DTs to force T to react. That's fucking expensive. 10 DT's = 3 BCs. If in practice this doesn't work, then I'm also at a loss on how to play Terran late game because I don't see how you can create space and momentum without also using/having abusive units. | ||
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Topin
Peru10077 Posts
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[Phantom]
Mexico2170 Posts
The DTs might be able to blink in but not out. The two turrets buy you time while the PF/lib atack, and then you just clean it up Protoss is spending a lot of supply and money on these harasses so it seems fair the Terran has to spend as much. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On August 09 2020 07:07 [Phantom] wrote: I think putting a PF in the outter expansions, making a supply deport wall and two turrets isg old enough. Put a liberator over your mineral line where you have an orbital. The DTs might be able to blink in but not out. The two turrets buy you time while the PF/lib atack, and then you just clean it up Protoss is spending a lot of supply and money on these harasses so it seems fair the Terran has to spend as much. You need to have multiple planetaries plus turrets. And possibly tanks/mines/libs at each expansion to reliebly stop DT harass. Seems like a lot to defend extremely low risk-high reward harass like blink DTs but there's not really any other choice. | ||
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architecture
United States643 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4943 Posts
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~ava
Canada378 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25283 Posts
On August 09 2020 10:06 Argonauta wrote: maybe they should introduce a delay between blinking and dealing dmg? Aye, I’ve suggested that elsewhere. I mean a delay means you can still punish gaps, but you can’t nuke stuff instantly/blink on top of bio. I feel the intent originally and where ideally it should be is for getting your DTs away/not saccing tons of resources if you’re a diligent player, not how we’re seeing them be increasingly used. Which was cool with the novelty or as part of the Classic story but just feels sillier the more players are incorporating them better in lategame vT | ||
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nath
United States1788 Posts
I still think nothing should be done to re-balance this patch-wise, i think the solution is out there, if anyone has found a useful way to mitigate damage LMK! I think the proposed change of a post-blink attack delay makes them useless for hatchery sniping or charge+blink DT allin in PvT, both things I think should still be part of the game. | ||
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Kitai
United States873 Posts
On August 09 2020 08:28 Fango wrote: You need to have multiple planetaries plus turrets. And possibly tanks/mines/libs at each expansion to reliebly stop DT harass. Seems like a lot to defend extremely low risk-high reward harass like blink DTs but there's not really any other choice. I think a fairly low-cost and low-supply solution is turrets and mines at your planetary - sounds easy enough but that's only if you know it's coming. Problem is you have to scout the DT shrine ahead of time because protoss can just flip a switch and warp in 20 at once in late game - they don't have to slowly mass them like terran does for any late-game tech. | ||
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Jealous
10151 Posts
On August 09 2020 09:37 architecture wrote: Doesn't sound right, issue isn't just outer expansions (where your army is close) but they can run into your natural or main too. I don't see how you can deal with it cost effectively without a mobile solution. Can I just say that I am so happy that you are a part of the community all these years later after your God-like "even a dog can hit timing for dinner" comment? I think about it once in a while and it still makes me laugh. Thank you. | ||
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architecture
United States643 Posts
On August 09 2020 14:03 Jealous wrote: Can I just say that I am so happy that you are a part of the community all these years later after your God-like "even a dog can hit timing for dinner" comment? I think about it once in a while and it still makes me laugh. Thank you. lmao I had to search to find out what post you were talking about. glad I made someone laugh. Still lurk and watch pro SC after all these years. Cheers. | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On August 09 2020 12:22 Wombat_NI wrote: Aye, I’ve suggested that elsewhere. I mean a delay means you can still punish gaps, but you can’t nuke stuff instantly/blink on top of bio. I feel the intent originally and where ideally it should be is for getting your DTs away/not saccing tons of resources if you’re a diligent player, not how we’re seeing them be increasingly used. Which was cool with the novelty or as part of the Classic story but just feels sillier the more players are incorporating them better in lategame vT Blink DTs are fine imo. Each one is close to the cost of a siege tank. They need to be good. And they reward skill. Just because we see stats and parting pulling it off doesn’t mean everyone else can. The way DTs are used now is the result of nerf after nerf of the Protoss lategame and Terran lategame buffs. If we nerf DTs then Protoss should at least get its strong carrier back Imo the biggest problem in TvP lategame is the BC. | ||
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Elentos
55550 Posts
On August 10 2020 01:30 BerserkSword wrote: Blink DTs are fine imo. Each one is close to the cost of a siege tank. They need to be good. And they reward skill. Just because we see stats and parting pulling it off doesn’t mean everyone else can. The way DTs are used now is the result of nerf after nerf of the Protoss lategame and Terran lategame buffs. If we nerf DTs then Protoss should at least get its strong carrier back Imo the biggest problem in TvP lategame is the BC. Ah yes the biggest issue is something that is seen at most once in 100 games | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25283 Posts
On August 10 2020 01:30 BerserkSword wrote: Blink DTs are fine imo. Each one is close to the cost of a siege tank. They need to be good. And they reward skill. Just because we see stats and parting pulling it off doesn’t mean everyone else can. The way DTs are used now is the result of nerf after nerf of the Protoss lategame and Terran lategame buffs. If we nerf DTs then Protoss should at least get its strong carrier back Imo the biggest problem in TvP lategame is the BC. I can’t remember seeing BCs vP in a premier since Gumigod pulled it off against Classic. I mean I don’t think anyone pondering any nerf hasn’t also theorycrafted better Terran optimisations and counter-play. It’s only relatively recent we’re seeing them as a frequent staple of lategame play. Aside from other differences like being invisible, sexually alluring and able to teleport, you can produce a whole bunch of DTs almost instantly at anywhere you have a prism floating. Not every (hypothetical) nerf needs a counterbalancing buff, sometimes a unit gets explored and utilised, or the meta develops in such a way it just needs toned down a little. Changing fungal to being a projectile instead of instant cast back in the day was just an outright good change for example, made landing them still doable for skilled players but made it more forgiving by making splitting or whiffed shots more viable. I’m happy to have the best Terran minds and hands in the world work on it for a bit and see what they come up with though for sure. | ||
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Athenau
569 Posts
On August 10 2020 03:25 Wombat_NI wrote: I can’t remember seeing BCs vP in a premier since Gumigod pulled it off against Classic. I mean I don’t think anyone pondering any nerf hasn’t also theorycrafted better Terran optimisations and counter-play. It’s only relatively recent we’re seeing them as a frequent staple of lategame play. Aside from other differences like being invisible, sexually alluring and able to teleport, you can produce a whole bunch of DTs almost instantly at anywhere you have a prism floating. Not every (hypothetical) nerf needs a counterbalancing buff, sometimes a unit gets explored and utilised, or the meta develops in such a way it just needs toned down a little. Changing fungal to being a projectile instead of instant cast back in the day was just an outright good change for example, made landing them still doable for skilled players but made it more forgiving by making splitting or whiffed shots more viable. I’m happy to have the best Terran minds and hands in the world work on it for a bit and see what they come up with though for sure. If history is any guide, the best Terran minds will decide that playing a macro game is unviable, and resort to ever more degenerate all-ins. | ||
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rayl991
Afghanistan80 Posts
On August 10 2020 04:45 Athenau wrote: If history is any guide, the best Terran minds will decide that playing a macro game is unviable, and resort to ever more degenerate all-ins. There's not much a Terran can do against Protoss and Zerg runby when moving out with your army. Against Toss, a prism is literally a low risk way to bring an army of zealots or DTs into your base. Against Zerg, lings and banes run into your mineral lines. Both style of runby can deal game ending economy damage. The Terran can only hope that his attack can deal sufficient damage to his opponent making it no different from an all-in each time a Terran moves out. There is still an option to sit back and play a turtle style against Protoss and eventually win but its impossible to do that against a Zerg. | ||
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