Heart: Stats For the Rogue free-win and getting even closer to GOAT status against all the TL haters wishes: Stats For the sake of really good finals: TY Head and my prediction: TY 4:2
On August 08 2020 06:30 MarianoSC2 wrote: Heart: Stats For the Rogue free-win and getting even closer to GOAT status against all the TL haters wishes: Stats For the sake of really good finals: TY Head and my prediction: TY 4:2
i don't get it. What free win does rogue get when he loses the finals regardless of who advances?
I want both to win T_T I think TY will do it tho. keep in mind 2 shitty semifinals means we are guaranteed a sick final btw who is replacing TY on the korean cast?
TY on his stream said that ebay blocks are broken against protoss btw, expect him to do it every game. He also said that he opens hellions after to punish if protoss takes the 3rd base instead.
On August 08 2020 13:24 BerserkSword wrote: idk why artosis talking so much trash against stats
he is, bar none, the greatest protoss of LotV
He's right in saying Stats is super consistent but kind of a kong at the same time. But that basically puts him behind only Maru, Serral, Rogue, and Dark in LotV really.
On August 08 2020 13:24 BerserkSword wrote: idk why artosis talking so much trash against stats
he is, bar none, the greatest protoss of LotV
He's right in saying Stats is super consistent but kind of a kong at the same time. But that basically puts him behind only Maru, Serral, Rogue, and Dark in LotV really.
On August 08 2020 13:24 BerserkSword wrote: idk why artosis talking so much trash against stats
he is, bar none, the greatest protoss of LotV
He's right in saying Stats is super consistent but kind of a kong at the same time. But that basically puts him behind only Maru, Serral, Rogue, and Dark in LotV really.
You could say much the same thing about TY though. He also has quite the collection of semis and second places.
On August 08 2020 13:24 BerserkSword wrote: idk why artosis talking so much trash against stats
he is, bar none, the greatest protoss of LotV
He's right in saying Stats is super consistent but kind of a kong at the same time. But that basically puts him behind only Maru, Serral, Rogue, and Dark in LotV really.
He definitely was far above Dark before 2019 too.
I'd say they were still pretty close though. Both had a couple trophies and then made ro4/finals of literally everything else.
Dark in 2019 just decided to stop choking once he made ro4 all of a sudden and became the absolute best.
On August 08 2020 13:24 BerserkSword wrote: idk why artosis talking so much trash against stats
he is, bar none, the greatest protoss of LotV
He's right in saying Stats is super consistent but kind of a kong at the same time. But that basically puts him behind only Maru, Serral, Rogue, and Dark in LotV really.
You could say much the same thing about TY though. He also has quite the collection of semis and second places.
On August 08 2020 13:41 geokilla wrote: So Stats knows there's a proxy and he builds up to 35 Probes? Why not more Gateways?
Because then he loses if TY mindgamed him and just expanded to the back.
There's no way he expanded the the back though. It takes too long to get that base up. If TY did that and Stats played standard, it's an auto lose for Stats.
On August 08 2020 13:41 geokilla wrote: So Stats knows there's a proxy and he builds up to 35 Probes? Why not more Gateways?
Because then he loses if TY mindgamed him and just expanded to the back.
There's no way he expanded the the back though. It takes too long to get that base up. If TY did that and Stats played standard, it's an auto lose for Stats.
Stats doesn't know that. He kept the adept at home in case it was 1 base aggression. He had no clue if TY was really expanding or not.
Also it's important to note that TY opens with a full depot wall all the time. The fact Stats can't get his probe scout in doesn't say anything to whether TYs cheesing or not.
On August 08 2020 13:41 geokilla wrote: So Stats knows there's a proxy and he builds up to 35 Probes? Why not more Gateways?
Because then he loses if TY mindgamed him and just expanded to the back.
There's no way he expanded the the back though. It takes too long to get that base up. If TY did that and Stats played standard, it's an auto lose for Stats.
Of course he could have. People do sometimes take that base as a nat.
On August 08 2020 13:47 Andi_Goldberger wrote: I hope stats does the "rally collossus to 4 stalker" pushout again :D
It feels so risky, but I guess they do so much damage vs marines that any swipes are worth it
You basically need a rock solid read on the timing of stim and concussive shells to do marginal damage. I guess the scenario where it's very good is if your opponent is doing a two base timing, since then you can slow them down quite a bit?
On August 08 2020 13:54 Kitai wrote: I feel like TY could have just dropped the hammer when he was 50 supply up - didn't have to back out after sniping the nexus
Possibly. But trying to end things against disruptors carries its own risks.
On August 08 2020 13:59 fastr wrote: TY won 4 cheeses in a row against PartinG. TY won both maps with all in and lost the 2 macro games. I'm starting to see a pattern...
Yeah Terran can't macro as fast as the other 2 races.
On August 08 2020 13:58 Lexender wrote: TY should take a lesson from all the Maru games and learn that going lategame macro vs toss is suicide.
lol it has nothing to do with tvp
stats is just a better macro player
Is Parting also a better macro player?
When he's on form, sure. PartinG winning so many PvTs with his first two units has just always made people think he doesn't have the best macro PvT as well.
I want to see a TY game 7 victory with a 30 minutes mech maco slugfest ending in mass BCs... One can dream right? edit: I see Artosis and I share the same dirty fantasies
Theres no way TY wins this series, theres nothing he can throw at Stats that'll work and macro is not an option, I expected that but still hearthbreaking.
On August 08 2020 14:16 [Phantom] wrote: I hate that stats is giving me hope because even if he wins he's just going to get massacred by a zerg in the finals
TvZ is better than PvZ sure. But I don't see TY beating Rogue in a big match. He would have to proxy like a lunatic
On August 08 2020 14:16 [Phantom] wrote: I hate that stats is giving me hope because even if he wins he's just going to get massacred by a zerg in the finals
A rogue final will be a massacre against any race I feel like
holding that long as TY was already miraculous, was way closer than I thought it would be
On August 08 2020 14:16 [Phantom] wrote: I hate that stats is giving me hope because even if he wins he's just going to get massacred by a zerg in the finals
if there are any terran/protoss players to beat rogue in a bo7, it's TY/stats
On August 08 2020 14:16 Fango wrote: Just how many hellions does TY make here? Surely going for a tank after the initial push is better unless he plans on dropping hellions eternally
I thought he was going for mech because he made so many.
On August 08 2020 14:16 [Phantom] wrote: I hate that stats is giving me hope because even if he wins he's just going to get massacred by a zerg in the finals
if there are any terran/protoss players to beat rogue in a bo7, it's TY/stats
Well that's precisely the problem isn't it? There probably isn't any protoss to beat Rogue in a bo7.
On August 08 2020 14:16 [Phantom] wrote: I hate that stats is giving me hope because even if he wins he's just going to get massacred by a zerg in the finals
if there are any terran/protoss players to beat rogue in a bo7, it's TY/stats
Well that's precisely the problem isn't it? There probably isn't any protoss to beat Rogue in a bo7.
Classic had a chance. He took out Rogue in bo5s in GSL and blizzcon last year with creative builds.
Although ro8 Rogue is a child compared to bo7 Rogue for reasons I don't understand.
You can't beat lategame DTs with just a few orbitals with scans. 3 orbitals will never have enough energy to keep up with it. You need turrets and bunkers in advance.
On August 08 2020 14:38 Fango wrote: You can't beat lategame DTs with just a few orbitals with scans. 3 orbitals will never have enough energy to keep up with it. You need turrets and bunkers in advance.
Bunkers don't do shit cause the DTs just blink on them and one-shot.
On August 08 2020 14:37 Elentos wrote: PvT looks absolutely unplayable after a certain point
ZvT looks better at this point? xD
At least you have a chance if you turtle enough to sky toss, not great but still better. (Also I'll always remind every one that TvP winrates have been worse than PvZ ones for some months now)
On August 08 2020 14:38 Fango wrote: You can't beat lategame DTs with just a few orbitals with scans. 3 orbitals will never have enough energy to keep up with it. You need turrets and bunkers in advance.
It's not even the lack of scans that are the biggest problem. DTs just snipe things so fast that if you scan as they blink in it's too late. So yeah, turrets and bunkers are needed.
On August 08 2020 14:38 Fango wrote: You can't beat lategame DTs with just a few orbitals with scans. 3 orbitals will never have enough energy to keep up with it. You need turrets and bunkers in advance.
Bunkers don't do shit cause the DTs just blink on them and one-shot.
I swear I don't understand why pros don't just build missile turrets. 1 or two per base. 100-200 minerals per base. Be already knew he had DTs. Seems 1000 minerals to not lose the game and protect 5 bases seems like a good trade.
DTs is one of the units where it's much more effective the better your opponents are.
On August 08 2020 14:38 Fango wrote: You can't beat lategame DTs with just a few orbitals with scans. 3 orbitals will never have enough energy to keep up with it. You need turrets and bunkers in advance.
You also can't be everywhere at once, no matter how many scans you use. There where DTS everywhere like cockroaches and once you split up your army to deal with them the real Protoss force comes for the steam roll.
On August 08 2020 14:41 [Phantom] wrote: I swear I don't understand why pros don't just build missile turrets. 1 or two per base. 100-200 minerals per base. Be already knew he had DTs. Seems 1000 minerals to not lose the game and protect 5 bases seems like a good trade.
DTs is one of the units where it's much more effective the better your opponents are.
What? DTs can just blink in and kill the turrets lol I think professional Terrans may need to start going mass-raven for a while late-game vP
On August 08 2020 14:37 Elentos wrote: PvT looks absolutely unplayable after a certain point
ZvT looks better at this point? xD
At least you have a chance if you turtle enough to sky toss, not great but still better. (Also I'll always remind every one that TvP winrates have been worse than PvZ ones for some months now)
Only on Aligulac which isn't meaningful at all. In bigger tournaments Terran was doing alright in TvP until relatively recently.
On August 08 2020 14:41 [Phantom] wrote: I swear I don't understand why pros don't just build missile turrets. 1 or two per base. 100-200 minerals per base. Be already knew he had DTs. Seems 1000 minerals to not lose the game and protect 5 bases seems like a good trade.
DTs is one of the units where it's much more effective the better your opponents are.
multiple dts will just dps down a turret before you even react, you'd need quite a few
On August 08 2020 14:41 [Phantom] wrote: I swear I don't understand why pros don't just build missile turrets. 1 or two per base. 100-200 minerals per base. Be already knew he had DTs. Seems 1000 minerals to not lose the game and protect 5 bases seems like a good trade.
DTs is one of the units where it's much more effective the better your opponents are.
Turrets stop a guaranteed loss to slow drip DTs, but they don't actually stop them lategame when DTs just insta kill everything
On August 08 2020 14:37 Elentos wrote: PvT looks absolutely unplayable after a certain point
ZvT looks better at this point? xD
At least you have a chance if you turtle enough to sky toss, not great but still better. (Also I'll always remind every one that TvP winrates have been worse than PvZ ones for some months now)
Only on Aligulac which isn't meaningful at all. In bigger tournaments Terran was doing alright in TvP until relatively recently.
Even though it was the logical conclusion this would happen eventually. Disruptors and blink DTs are an absolute nightmare to play against and battery overcharge plugs a lot of defensive weaknesses in the early and mid game.
On August 08 2020 14:41 [Phantom] wrote: I swear I don't understand why pros don't just build missile turrets. 1 or two per base. 100-200 minerals per base. Be already knew he had DTs. Seems 1000 minerals to not lose the game and protect 5 bases seems like a good trade.
DTs is one of the units where it's much more effective the better your opponents are.
they die in 1 second to the DT blink in? the only real solution is hard turtling with multiple planetaries, tanks, libs and OC farms. TY wasnt going for that style at all (more bio heavy trying to end the game faster) stats just got to the DT phase way earlier than he anticipated.
On August 08 2020 14:37 Elentos wrote: PvT looks absolutely unplayable after a certain point
ZvT looks better at this point? xD
At least you have a chance if you turtle enough to sky toss, not great but still better. (Also I'll always remind every one that TvP winrates have been worse than PvZ ones for some months now)
Only on Aligulac which isn't meaningful at all. In bigger tournaments Terran was doing alright in TvP until relatively recently.
Yeah Aligulac is not the best, that being said I find it curious how things work after pros whinned for weeks about the #TerranPatch.
On August 08 2020 14:42 Golgotha wrote: Rogue is gonna wreck Stats.
Stats might lose a game or two vs Rogue, but he's going to crumple him in his hands like paper. Rogue will try one macro game, lose and then flounder in cheese. Stats will eat him up.
On August 08 2020 14:38 Fango wrote: You can't beat lategame DTs with just a few orbitals with scans. 3 orbitals will never have enough energy to keep up with it. You need turrets and bunkers in advance.
You also can't be everywhere at once, no matter how many scans you use. There where DTS everywhere like cockroaches and once you split up your army to deal with them the real Protoss force comes for the steam roll.
Change DTs to medivacs, or hellions or mines and it's a similar concept. Or Mutas for Zerg.
On August 08 2020 14:41 [Phantom] wrote: I swear I don't understand why pros don't just build missile turrets. 1 or two per base. 100-200 minerals per base. Be already knew he had DTs. Seems 1000 minerals to not lose the game and protect 5 bases seems like a good trade.
DTs is one of the units where it's much more effective the better your opponents are.
they die in 1 second to the DT blink in? the only real solution is hard turtling with multiple planetaries, tanks, libs and OC farms. TY wasnt going for that style at all (more bio heavy trying to end the game faster) stats just got to the DT phase way earlier than he anticipated.
The problem then is that Protoss can mass expand, build 90+ workers and keep on tearing terran apart with chargelot and DTs.
On August 08 2020 14:38 Fango wrote: You can't beat lategame DTs with just a few orbitals with scans. 3 orbitals will never have enough energy to keep up with it. You need turrets and bunkers in advance.
You also can't be everywhere at once, no matter how many scans you use. There where DTS everywhere like cockroaches and once you split up your army to deal with them the real Protoss force comes for the steam roll.
Change DTs to medivacs, or hellions or mines and it's a similar concept. Or Mutas for Zerg.
No one makes mass mutas, hellions, or mines in the lategame because they are easily countered.
The DPS of DTs, combined with the fact you can warp in 10 at a time, and they have bloody blink, makes them 100x as viable for lategame harass as any of those.
On August 08 2020 14:38 Fango wrote: You can't beat lategame DTs with just a few orbitals with scans. 3 orbitals will never have enough energy to keep up with it. You need turrets and bunkers in advance.
You also can't be everywhere at once, no matter how many scans you use. There where DTS everywhere like cockroaches and once you split up your army to deal with them the real Protoss force comes for the steam roll.
Change DTs to medivacs, or hellions or mines and it's a similar concept. Or Mutas for Zerg.
Come on, you know very well that none of those units are similar to DTs at all lol Mines are the closest thing, and even they need to actually burrow in order to do damage and get cloaked Now if mines could teleport and were permacloaked? Then sure.
On August 08 2020 14:38 Fango wrote: You can't beat lategame DTs with just a few orbitals with scans. 3 orbitals will never have enough energy to keep up with it. You need turrets and bunkers in advance.
You also can't be everywhere at once, no matter how many scans you use. There where DTS everywhere like cockroaches and once you split up your army to deal with them the real Protoss force comes for the steam roll.
Change DTs to medivacs, or hellions or mines and it's a similar concept. Or Mutas for Zerg.
Those things are easier to defend the longer the game goes on just because your vision expands. Blink DTs aren't covered by just vision and they need a very dedicated response cause it's usually whole groups of them and you need to make sure whatever you send to defend doesn't get blunked on and dies. But it also has to be little enough so that you don't lose any other front.
On August 08 2020 14:45 F1rstAssau1t wrote: So Terran gotta end the game fast vs Zerg and Protoss or be doom.
Lulz
Well, late-game TvZ is decent, TvP late-game has always been a nightmare. Disruptor + Collosi + Archon/HT + DTs? Good luck
TvZ is in a great spot, bio late-game is a bit harder but the micro monsters can make it work, and if you survive the mid game with mech you're usually in a great spot. TvP... Well after this series there's nothing to add.
The problem with blink DTs is that, unlike regular units harassing, you can't reactively defend and come out ahead. They kill bases and workers so quickly that you need to have defense before they blink in.
And having 30 supply of units + detection everywhere is impossible.
On August 08 2020 14:38 Fango wrote: You can't beat lategame DTs with just a few orbitals with scans. 3 orbitals will never have enough energy to keep up with it. You need turrets and bunkers in advance.
You also can't be everywhere at once, no matter how many scans you use. There where DTS everywhere like cockroaches and once you split up your army to deal with them the real Protoss force comes for the steam roll.
Change DTs to medivacs, or hellions or mines and it's a similar concept. Or Mutas for Zerg.
Those things are easier to defend the longer the game goes on just because your vision expands. Blink DTs aren't covered by just vision and they need a very dedicated response cause it's usually whole groups of them and you need to make sure whatever you send to defend doesn't get blunked on and dies. But it also has to be little enough so that you don't lose any other front.
And disruptors with the main army mean you have a good shot at holding off the terran for a while even if your main army has a much smaller supply.
On August 08 2020 14:38 Fango wrote: You can't beat lategame DTs with just a few orbitals with scans. 3 orbitals will never have enough energy to keep up with it. You need turrets and bunkers in advance.
You also can't be everywhere at once, no matter how many scans you use. There where DTS everywhere like cockroaches and once you split up your army to deal with them the real Protoss force comes for the steam roll.
Change DTs to medivacs, or hellions or mines and it's a similar concept. Or Mutas for Zerg.
But with medivacs and mutas at least a sizeable chunk of actual army is cut off. With DTs they are doing crazy damage, can slip in easily, and are not really part of the deathball.
On August 08 2020 14:38 Fango wrote: You can't beat lategame DTs with just a few orbitals with scans. 3 orbitals will never have enough energy to keep up with it. You need turrets and bunkers in advance.
You also can't be everywhere at once, no matter how many scans you use. There where DTS everywhere like cockroaches and once you split up your army to deal with them the real Protoss force comes for the steam roll.
Change DTs to medivacs, or hellions or mines and it's a similar concept. Or Mutas for Zerg.
Come on, you know very well that none of those units are similar to DTs at all lol Mines are the closest thing, and even they need to actually burrow in order to do damage and get cloaked Now if mines could teleport and were permacloaked? Then sure.
Also mines don't kill planetaries before any human being can process the alert notification.
Sometime in the past year Protosses realized that DTs actually do insane damage even when uncloaked and can easily replace zealots lol TvP still boils down to not letting Protoss get to 4 bases.
On August 08 2020 14:38 Fango wrote: You can't beat lategame DTs with just a few orbitals with scans. 3 orbitals will never have enough energy to keep up with it. You need turrets and bunkers in advance.
You also can't be everywhere at once, no matter how many scans you use. There where DTS everywhere like cockroaches and once you split up your army to deal with them the real Protoss force comes for the steam roll.
Change DTs to medivacs, or hellions or mines and it's a similar concept. Or Mutas for Zerg.
Come on, you know very well that none of those units are similar to DTs at all lol Mines are the closest thing, and even they need to actually burrow in order to do damage and get cloaked Now if mines could teleport and were permacloaked? Then sure.
And kept shooting when burrowed, while being able to attack buildings.
On August 08 2020 14:55 Whatson wrote: Sometime in the past year Protosses realized that DTs actually do insane damage even when uncloaked and can easily replace zealots lol TvP still boils down to not letting Protoss get to 4 bases.
It would be fine if Terran could secure 4 or 5 bases as easily as Protoss but that hasn't been a thing since Kings Cove
My biggest worry for Stats is that I don't know what he plays for in PvZ. He's a defensive macro player by nature, but that doesn't seem great. There's no figured out comp to go into that I'm aware of for big winrates. How you're meant to go about playing PvT was pretty figured out already.
On the flip-side this DT stuff is still a sorta recent development so hopefully the meta still has room to develop. And once it fails to do so the nerfs to this are relatively straightforward (much more so than PvZ's problems).
On August 08 2020 14:58 Elentos wrote: My biggest worry for Stats is that I don't know what he plays for in PvZ. He's a defensive macro player by nature, but that doesn't seem great. There's no figured out comp to go into that I'm aware of. How you're meant to go about playing PvT was pretty figured out already.
In the Ro16 Stats did get a good position against Rogue with double stargate phoenix before kinda throwing. I'd be happy if we saw more of that type of stuff instead of adepts.
On August 08 2020 14:58 ZigguratOfUr wrote: On the flip-side this DT stuff is still a sorta recent development so hopefully the meta still has room to develop. And once it fails to do so the nerfs to this are relatively straightforward (much more so than PvZ's problems).
I think the only way to actually play against that properly is the ultra turtly style TY did vs PartinG on Nightshade. And I don't think you can do that on this map pool except on Eternal and Ice and Chrome. Like Inno did it in Douyu Cup the other day on Ice and Chrome (also vs PartinG), just camping until PartinG got too inefficient. But I don't think that was optimal Protoss play either.
On August 08 2020 14:38 Fango wrote: You can't beat lategame DTs with just a few orbitals with scans. 3 orbitals will never have enough energy to keep up with it. You need turrets and bunkers in advance.
You also can't be everywhere at once, no matter how many scans you use. There where DTS everywhere like cockroaches and once you split up your army to deal with them the real Protoss force comes for the steam roll.
Change DTs to medivacs, or hellions or mines and it's a similar concept. Or Mutas for Zerg.
Come on, you know very well that none of those units are similar to DTs at all lol Mines are the closest thing, and even they need to actually burrow in order to do damage and get cloaked Now if mines could teleport and were permacloaked? Then sure.
And kept shooting when burrowed, while being able to attack buildings.
Also mines do damage once then are dead supply for 40 seconds. DTs kill one base then blink to the next
On August 08 2020 14:45 F1rstAssau1t wrote: So Terran gotta end the game fast vs Zerg and Protoss or be doom.
Lulz
Well, late-game TvZ is decent, TvP late-game has always been a nightmare. Disruptor + Collosi + Archon/HT + DTs? Good luck
TvZ is in a great spot, bio late-game is a bit harder but the micro monsters can make it work, and if you survive the mid game with mech you're usually in a great spot. TvP... Well after this series there's nothing to add.
lol no. TvZ late game is not decent when its just the zerg spamming banes with superior economy and production capabilities. Terran might as well gg if they did no significant damage to Zerg in the early game.
The problem with TvP late game imo is the amount of splash Protoss can utilize (Storm, Distruptor, Archon, Colllosi) compared to the Terran (Static tanks/mines + emp that doesn't kill).
I LOVE when Stats is winning. He's one of the few players that people don't decry protoss bullshit as the reason for victory. He's such a sheer defensive player that when he wins even the Protoss haters have to give it up to him for "at least playing the right way."
He looked so great in this series - wonderful as long as he was allowed by TY to have more than 1 gateway worth of production.
On August 08 2020 17:30 Poopi wrote: How was the series? Poor TY
Well the short version is that TY lost every game that went past the 6 minute mark. There were some decent macro games but tbh it didn't really look like TY was gonna win one of those, Stats was mostly in control.
It's impressive that TY came this far to be honest. It just shows that he is clearly the smartest player and best tactician out there because in terms of mechanics there are for sure better players. Also TY form hasn't been the best for a long time. Mostly when I saw him play he went for cheese or super agro. Stats looked a level above TY today, well played by him. Now he will get dumpstered in the finals because Rogue bo7 and ZvP...
On August 08 2020 18:17 MarianoSC2 wrote: It's impressive that TY came this far to be honest. It just shows that he is clearly the smartest player and best tactician out there because in terms of mechanics there are for sure better players. Also TY form hasn't been the best for a long time. Mostly when I saw him play he went for cheese or super agro. Stats looked a level above TY today, well played by him. Now he will get dumpstered in the finals because Rogue bo7 and ZvP...
Yeah ZvP is bad I agree but as a little fuel to the statistical fire Stats has won all his premier finals wins against Zerg opposition and is the last player to hand Rogue an offline loss (admittedly in a Bo3). Also he's just broke his losing streak against TY.
On August 08 2020 18:17 MarianoSC2 wrote: It's impressive that TY came this far to be honest. It just shows that he is clearly the smartest player and best tactician out there because in terms of mechanics there are for sure better players. Also TY form hasn't been the best for a long time. Mostly when I saw him play he went for cheese or super agro. Stats looked a level above TY today, well played by him. Now he will get dumpstered in the finals because Rogue bo7 and ZvP...
Yeah ZvP is bad I agree but as a little fuel to the statistical fire Stats has won all his premier finals wins against Zerg opposition and is the last player to hand Rogue an offline loss (admittedly in a Bo3). Also he's just broke his losing streak against TY.
Even though I am a big Rogue fan, I would be equally happy if Stats made it. Just don't see it happening. Playing solid against Zerg is not enough and Rogue is just too unpredictable to prepare for in a bo7. But we will see maybe Stats can bring some magic and at least make it a game
On August 08 2020 18:17 MarianoSC2 wrote: It's impressive that TY came this far to be honest. It just shows that he is clearly the smartest player and best tactician out there because in terms of mechanics there are for sure better players. Also TY form hasn't been the best for a long time. Mostly when I saw him play he went for cheese or super agro. Stats looked a level above TY today, well played by him. Now he will get dumpstered in the finals because Rogue bo7 and ZvP...
Yeah ZvP is bad I agree but as a little fuel to the statistical fire Stats has won all his premier finals wins against Zerg opposition and is the last player to hand Rogue an offline loss (admittedly in a Bo3). Also he's just broke his losing streak against TY.
Even though I am a big Rogue fan, I would be equally happy if Stats made it. Just don't see it happening. Playing solid against Zerg is not enough and Rogue is just too unpredictable to prepare for in a bo7. But we will see maybe Stats can bring some magic and at least make it a game
Yeah Rogue is definitely favoured but if anyone can do it it's Stats.
On August 08 2020 18:52 deacon.frost wrote: Everybody - Terran patch. Code S as the most Terran favored tournament - Nelson laughs at all the people
Last season was a TvT finals, so this evens things out
Terran patch - no terrans in the finals, sure, buddy
I mean last season it was a "terran patch" But this season is a different patch to last season so no its clearly not a terran patch anymore and barely any1 is saying it is.. So maybe stop using that phrase acting like it still is?
There was never a Terran patch. People just over reacted to a single GSL which was obviously a fluke even at the time. Just go back and watch the way Inno beat Zest and Trap. That was so obviously not a sustainable way to win PvT. Zerg only underperformed because Scarlett cheesed out Rogue and Dark is slumping. There was never a period this year where TvZ truly favored Terran by any significant margin.
On August 08 2020 22:45 JJH777 wrote: There was never a Terran patch. People just over reacted to a single GSL which was obviously a fluke even at the time. Just go back and watch the way Inno beat Zest and Trap. That was so obviously not a sustainable way to win PvT. Zerg only underperformed because Scarlett cheesed out Rogue and Dark is slumping. There was never a period this year where TvZ truly favored Terran by any significant margin.
Reminds me of that real Protoss dominated Super Tournament eliciting the same reaction.
The pool of really top, top players is quite small and a few results can make a really unrepresentative bracket. Happened then and I’d argue people went overboard about P (and did at the time), think the same happened with T.
Actually looking at some of the games as you say, some of what Terran was pulling off was potent in some of those games, but equally never felt a stable, solid way to approach matchups in the long run.
Be it the rumoured wrists or just a more mental slump, take Dark the best ZvTer in the world’s level down a little and have Rogue cheesed out and those are big blows for Zerg in a season.
As for the series, pretty good although that may be influenced by how bad most of the Ro8 and Ro4 have been in general.
Come on Stats, for Aiur! I love both players, I mean who can’t love Stats, he makes Protoss almost bearable, so long as he can do the business in the final.
DT blink is, em. Yes... Pretty broken in that stage of the match, in that particular matchup, against that particular race. Stats did play bloody well too so not detracting from his triumph today.
Probably not nearly as bad at lower levels where players are more static with armies and overbuild static D, but when top players have to cut corners and be constantly active they’re insane.
I would personally at least look at an attack cooldown after a blink, so they can’t nuke buildings instantly without a defender having a chance, or jump onto units as effectively.
I think the niche should be in preserving DTs so you’re not just saccing them and haemorrhaging money and giving them more lategame utility than being used to nuke things before even AlphaStar could react.
On August 08 2020 22:45 JJH777 wrote: There was never a Terran patch. People just over reacted to a single GSL which was obviously a fluke even at the time. Just go back and watch the way Inno beat Zest and Trap. That was so obviously not a sustainable way to win PvT. Zerg only underperformed because Scarlett cheesed out Rogue and Dark is slumping. There was never a period this year where TvZ truly favored Terran by any significant margin.
That's just false, maps favored Terran; they had an advantage against both Zerg and Protoss but the map pool is different now.
Protoss Spring last year was indeed a fluke because without no balance changes and identical map pool Zerg were starting to adjust.
On August 08 2020 22:45 JJH777 wrote: There was never a Terran patch. People just over reacted to a single GSL which was obviously a fluke even at the time. Just go back and watch the way Inno beat Zest and Trap. That was so obviously not a sustainable way to win PvT. Zerg only underperformed because Scarlett cheesed out Rogue and Dark is slumping. There was never a period this year where TvZ truly favored Terran by any significant margin.
That's just false, maps favored Terran; they had an advantage against both Zerg and Protoss but the map pool is different now.
Protoss Spring last year was indeed a fluke because without no balance changes and identical map pool Zerg were starting to adjust.
IEM was on the same patch and had only like 3 different maps (so with vetos the pool could be basically only maps that were in IEM for most of the tournament if Z/P so chose) and had all the same Terrans and only 2 made the top 12. Super Tournament had the same map pool as the ro24 of that GSL season and while Terran did well at and won Super Tournament it wasn't a big over performance the way GSL S1 was. Results would have balanced back out again with the same map pool.
TSL5 was mostly the same map pool too and Terran did not over perform there much at all.
On August 08 2020 18:17 MarianoSC2 wrote: It's impressive that TY came this far to be honest. It just shows that he is clearly the smartest player and best tactician out there because in terms of mechanics there are for sure better players. Also TY form hasn't been the best for a long time. Mostly when I saw him play he went for cheese or super agro. Stats looked a level above TY today, well played by him. Now he will get dumpstered in the finals because Rogue bo7 and ZvP...
Yeah ZvP is bad I agree but as a little fuel to the statistical fire Stats has won all his premier finals wins against Zerg opposition and is the last player to hand Rogue an offline loss (admittedly in a Bo3). Also he's just broke his losing streak against TY.
Didnt know 2018 GSL v the World and Blizzcon weren't Premier tournaments
On August 08 2020 18:17 MarianoSC2 wrote: It's impressive that TY came this far to be honest. It just shows that he is clearly the smartest player and best tactician out there because in terms of mechanics there are for sure better players. Also TY form hasn't been the best for a long time. Mostly when I saw him play he went for cheese or super agro. Stats looked a level above TY today, well played by him. Now he will get dumpstered in the finals because Rogue bo7 and ZvP...
Yeah ZvP is bad I agree but as a little fuel to the statistical fire Stats has won all his premier finals wins against Zerg opposition and is the last player to hand Rogue an offline loss (admittedly in a Bo3). Also he's just broke his losing streak against TY.
Didnt know 2018 GSL v the World and Blizzcon weren't Premier tournaments
Notice how I said Stats' Premier final wins I meant as in all his wins in premier finals have come at the expense of Zerg, twice against Dark, once against soO and once against Solar.
Seems like Terran struggles so much against late game runbys in all matchups. DTs, zealots, mutas, lings.
I wonder if pros have explored dumping some supply into BC/raven just to defend so that they can more efficiently deflect backstabs. There's got to be no purpose to having 12 medivacs instead of 8 and a bunch of extra bio, and I wonder having 20-30 supply of BC/raven can respond efficiently and even counterharass. I guess my point is that 18m into a game 30 supply into MMM is much less flexible and abusable than 30 food in BC/raven.
On August 09 2020 04:14 architecture wrote: Seems like Terran struggles so much against late game runbys in all matchups. DTs, zealots, mutas, lings.
I wonder if pros have explored dumping some supply into BC/raven just to defend so that they can more efficiently deflect backstabs. There's got to be no purpose to having 12 medivacs instead of 8 and a bunch of extra bio, and I wonder having 20-30 supply of BC/raven can respond efficiently and even counterharass. I guess my point is that 18m into a game 30 supply into MMM is much less flexible and abusable than 30 food in BC/raven.
BCs are not particularly great against big groups of small units like lings. 30 supply of BC/raven is also insanely expensive to only use for defense (it's more expensive than 10 siege tanks). Outside of extraordinary circumstances you simply can't afford that.
On August 09 2020 04:14 architecture wrote: Seems like Terran struggles so much against late game runbys in all matchups. DTs, zealots, mutas, lings.
I wonder if pros have explored dumping some supply into BC/raven just to defend so that they can more efficiently deflect backstabs. There's got to be no purpose to having 12 medivacs instead of 8 and a bunch of extra bio, and I wonder having 20-30 supply of BC/raven can respond efficiently and even counterharass. I guess my point is that 18m into a game 30 supply into MMM is much less flexible and abusable than 30 food in BC/raven.
BCs are not particularly great against big groups of small units like lings. 30 supply of BC/raven is also insanely expensive to only use for defense (it's more expensive than 10 siege tanks). Outside of extraordinary circumstances you simply can't afford that.
Yeah it would take too much away from your main force for sure.
What about a few Raven clumps? 2-3 Ravens with full energy that’s a fair few turrets and the DPS on those is pretty chunky. Maybe stick them close to your most vulnerable base?
Don’t think you could afford to have a huge amount of spare Ravens dotted about, but perhaps at a singular location?
On August 09 2020 04:14 architecture wrote: Seems like Terran struggles so much against late game runbys in all matchups. DTs, zealots, mutas, lings.
I wonder if pros have explored dumping some supply into BC/raven just to defend so that they can more efficiently deflect backstabs. There's got to be no purpose to having 12 medivacs instead of 8 and a bunch of extra bio, and I wonder having 20-30 supply of BC/raven can respond efficiently and even counterharass. I guess my point is that 18m into a game 30 supply into MMM is much less flexible and abusable than 30 food in BC/raven.
BCs are not particularly great against big groups of small units like lings. 30 supply of BC/raven is also insanely expensive to only use for defense (it's more expensive than 10 siege tanks). Outside of extraordinary circumstances you simply can't afford that.
Yeah it would take too much away from your main force for sure.
What about a few Raven clumps? 2-3 Ravens with full energy that’s a fair few turrets and the DPS on those is pretty chunky. Maybe stick them close to your most vulnerable base?
Don’t think you could afford to have a huge amount of spare Ravens dotted about, but perhaps at a singular location?
This could buy you a handful of seconds but you'd still need to bring actual units to defend. If spotted in advance it could also get feedback'd in TvP and do nothing,
On August 09 2020 04:14 architecture wrote: Seems like Terran struggles so much against late game runbys in all matchups. DTs, zealots, mutas, lings.
I wonder if pros have explored dumping some supply into BC/raven just to defend so that they can more efficiently deflect backstabs. There's got to be no purpose to having 12 medivacs instead of 8 and a bunch of extra bio, and I wonder having 20-30 supply of BC/raven can respond efficiently and even counterharass. I guess my point is that 18m into a game 30 supply into MMM is much less flexible and abusable than 30 food in BC/raven.
BCs are not particularly great against big groups of small units like lings. 30 supply of BC/raven is also insanely expensive to only use for defense (it's more expensive than 10 siege tanks). Outside of extraordinary circumstances you simply can't afford that.
Yeah it would take too much away from your main force for sure.
What about a few Raven clumps? 2-3 Ravens with full energy that’s a fair few turrets and the DPS on those is pretty chunky. Maybe stick them close to your most vulnerable base?
Don’t think you could afford to have a huge amount of spare Ravens dotted about, but perhaps at a singular location?
This could buy you a handful of seconds but you'd still need to bring actual units to defend. If spotted in advance it could also get feedback'd in TvP and do nothing,
Then you have a singular ghost with your Raven defence squad, s’all good.
Silly theorycrafting aside can that many Ravens + turrets DPS down relatively small numbers of blink DTs anyway? Maddeningly curious but I stuck my PC in at a repair place so cannae do much mucking around.
I have in my mind’s eye what TY’s base setup was like and where a good spot for them would be, it’s difficult to convey particularly clearly.
I don’t think you’d want them forward to spot DTs too far out, makes them vulnerable to be sniped. If there’s a line between your 3rd and 4th you want them a little behind that line, maybe bouncing back and forth. More as a rapid response team of sorts.
I don’t know, it’s difficult. In theory the unit with detection, a high DPS albeit short lived attack and that’s reasonably supply efficient vs alternatives could have some utility here.
For larger DT forces, who knows? One small optimisation I could see if blink DT becomes more and more common in the meta is a supply depot half wall around outlying CCs so you’re not cutting surface area for mining but at least preventing a full DT blink surround.
Problem with Ravens is that you can just run away from them.
BCs are expensive, but if you look at late game Terran there's just a problem of spending money on units that trade inefficiently. How many times have you seen people make liberators and ghosts and they just die without doing much?
You obviously cannot afford stuff like BC on your first max anyways. But if you have a bank why not get some more expensive and powerful units. What's the point of getting the same food into MM and then ending up spending twice the effort and food to scramble and deal with the runby.
Besides, these games P is literally throwing away 10-20 DTs to force T to react. That's fucking expensive. 10 DT's = 3 BCs.
If in practice this doesn't work, then I'm also at a loss on how to play Terran late game because I don't see how you can create space and momentum without also using/having abusive units.
TY brought the builds but Stat got the win. really solid macro games by Stats and a pretty good series overall. i am sad for TY but yeah, Stats was better this time. Sadly the finals wont be as close. gg TY!
I think putting a PF in the outter expansions, making a supply deport wall and two turrets isg old enough. Put a liberator over your mineral line where you have an orbital.
The DTs might be able to blink in but not out. The two turrets buy you time while the PF/lib atack, and then you just clean it up
Protoss is spending a lot of supply and money on these harasses so it seems fair the Terran has to spend as much.
On August 09 2020 07:07 [Phantom] wrote: I think putting a PF in the outter expansions, making a supply deport wall and two turrets isg old enough. Put a liberator over your mineral line where you have an orbital.
The DTs might be able to blink in but not out. The two turrets buy you time while the PF/lib atack, and then you just clean it up
Protoss is spending a lot of supply and money on these harasses so it seems fair the Terran has to spend as much.
You need to have multiple planetaries plus turrets. And possibly tanks/mines/libs at each expansion to reliebly stop DT harass. Seems like a lot to defend extremely low risk-high reward harass like blink DTs but there's not really any other choice.
Doesn't sound right, issue isn't just outer expansions (where your army is close) but they can run into your natural or main too. I don't see how you can deal with it cost effectively without a mobile solution.
great series, just watched. To add to the discussion, maybe Terran just needs to sacrifice a bit of mining efficiency in lategame and plop a bunker down in the path of the mining SCVs; losing a bit of your income rate is better than losing your whole income?
On August 09 2020 10:06 Argonauta wrote: maybe they should introduce a delay between blinking and dealing dmg?
Aye, I’ve suggested that elsewhere.
I mean a delay means you can still punish gaps, but you can’t nuke stuff instantly/blink on top of bio.
I feel the intent originally and where ideally it should be is for getting your DTs away/not saccing tons of resources if you’re a diligent player, not how we’re seeing them be increasingly used.
Which was cool with the novelty or as part of the Classic story but just feels sillier the more players are incorporating them better in lategame vT
As a Terran who has struggled with blink DT's lategame even when i entered lategame at an advantage, for a long time, I haven't found any solution. I won't lie its been frustrating even when I slowly and painfully learned how to beat the normal maxed Protoss army and control ghost/lib I struggle with this.
I still think nothing should be done to re-balance this patch-wise, i think the solution is out there, if anyone has found a useful way to mitigate damage LMK!
I think the proposed change of a post-blink attack delay makes them useless for hatchery sniping or charge+blink DT allin in PvT, both things I think should still be part of the game.
On August 09 2020 07:07 [Phantom] wrote: I think putting a PF in the outter expansions, making a supply deport wall and two turrets isg old enough. Put a liberator over your mineral line where you have an orbital.
The DTs might be able to blink in but not out. The two turrets buy you time while the PF/lib atack, and then you just clean it up
Protoss is spending a lot of supply and money on these harasses so it seems fair the Terran has to spend as much.
You need to have multiple planetaries plus turrets. And possibly tanks/mines/libs at each expansion to reliebly stop DT harass. Seems like a lot to defend extremely low risk-high reward harass like blink DTs but there's not really any other choice.
I think a fairly low-cost and low-supply solution is turrets and mines at your planetary - sounds easy enough but that's only if you know it's coming. Problem is you have to scout the DT shrine ahead of time because protoss can just flip a switch and warp in 20 at once in late game - they don't have to slowly mass them like terran does for any late-game tech.
On August 09 2020 09:37 architecture wrote: Doesn't sound right, issue isn't just outer expansions (where your army is close) but they can run into your natural or main too. I don't see how you can deal with it cost effectively without a mobile solution.
Can I just say that I am so happy that you are a part of the community all these years later after your God-like "even a dog can hit timing for dinner" comment? I think about it once in a while and it still makes me laugh. Thank you.
On August 09 2020 09:37 architecture wrote: Doesn't sound right, issue isn't just outer expansions (where your army is close) but they can run into your natural or main too. I don't see how you can deal with it cost effectively without a mobile solution.
Can I just say that I am so happy that you are a part of the community all these years later after your God-like "even a dog can hit timing for dinner" comment? I think about it once in a while and it still makes me laugh. Thank you.
lmao I had to search to find out what post you were talking about.
glad I made someone laugh. Still lurk and watch pro SC after all these years. Cheers.
On August 09 2020 10:06 Argonauta wrote: maybe they should introduce a delay between blinking and dealing dmg?
Aye, I’ve suggested that elsewhere.
I mean a delay means you can still punish gaps, but you can’t nuke stuff instantly/blink on top of bio.
I feel the intent originally and where ideally it should be is for getting your DTs away/not saccing tons of resources if you’re a diligent player, not how we’re seeing them be increasingly used.
Which was cool with the novelty or as part of the Classic story but just feels sillier the more players are incorporating them better in lategame vT
Blink DTs are fine imo.
Each one is close to the cost of a siege tank. They need to be good. And they reward skill. Just because we see stats and parting pulling it off doesn’t mean everyone else can.
The way DTs are used now is the result of nerf after nerf of the Protoss lategame and Terran lategame buffs. If we nerf DTs then Protoss should at least get its strong carrier back
Imo the biggest problem in TvP lategame is the BC.
On August 09 2020 10:06 Argonauta wrote: maybe they should introduce a delay between blinking and dealing dmg?
Aye, I’ve suggested that elsewhere.
I mean a delay means you can still punish gaps, but you can’t nuke stuff instantly/blink on top of bio.
I feel the intent originally and where ideally it should be is for getting your DTs away/not saccing tons of resources if you’re a diligent player, not how we’re seeing them be increasingly used.
Which was cool with the novelty or as part of the Classic story but just feels sillier the more players are incorporating them better in lategame vT
Blink DTs are fine imo.
Each one is close to the cost of a siege tank. They need to be good. And they reward skill. Just because we see stats and parting pulling it off doesn’t mean everyone else can.
The way DTs are used now is the result of nerf after nerf of the Protoss lategame and Terran lategame buffs. If we nerf DTs then Protoss should at least get its strong carrier back
Imo the biggest problem in TvP lategame is the BC.
Ah yes the biggest issue is something that is seen at most once in 100 games
On August 09 2020 10:06 Argonauta wrote: maybe they should introduce a delay between blinking and dealing dmg?
Aye, I’ve suggested that elsewhere.
I mean a delay means you can still punish gaps, but you can’t nuke stuff instantly/blink on top of bio.
I feel the intent originally and where ideally it should be is for getting your DTs away/not saccing tons of resources if you’re a diligent player, not how we’re seeing them be increasingly used.
Which was cool with the novelty or as part of the Classic story but just feels sillier the more players are incorporating them better in lategame vT
Blink DTs are fine imo.
Each one is close to the cost of a siege tank. They need to be good. And they reward skill. Just because we see stats and parting pulling it off doesn’t mean everyone else can.
The way DTs are used now is the result of nerf after nerf of the Protoss lategame and Terran lategame buffs. If we nerf DTs then Protoss should at least get its strong carrier back
Imo the biggest problem in TvP lategame is the BC.
I can’t remember seeing BCs vP in a premier since Gumigod pulled it off against Classic.
I mean I don’t think anyone pondering any nerf hasn’t also theorycrafted better Terran optimisations and counter-play. It’s only relatively recent we’re seeing them as a frequent staple of lategame play.
Aside from other differences like being invisible, sexually alluring and able to teleport, you can produce a whole bunch of DTs almost instantly at anywhere you have a prism floating.
Not every (hypothetical) nerf needs a counterbalancing buff, sometimes a unit gets explored and utilised, or the meta develops in such a way it just needs toned down a little.
Changing fungal to being a projectile instead of instant cast back in the day was just an outright good change for example, made landing them still doable for skilled players but made it more forgiving by making splitting or whiffed shots more viable.
I’m happy to have the best Terran minds and hands in the world work on it for a bit and see what they come up with though for sure.
On August 09 2020 10:06 Argonauta wrote: maybe they should introduce a delay between blinking and dealing dmg?
Aye, I’ve suggested that elsewhere.
I mean a delay means you can still punish gaps, but you can’t nuke stuff instantly/blink on top of bio.
I feel the intent originally and where ideally it should be is for getting your DTs away/not saccing tons of resources if you’re a diligent player, not how we’re seeing them be increasingly used.
Which was cool with the novelty or as part of the Classic story but just feels sillier the more players are incorporating them better in lategame vT
Blink DTs are fine imo.
Each one is close to the cost of a siege tank. They need to be good. And they reward skill. Just because we see stats and parting pulling it off doesn’t mean everyone else can.
The way DTs are used now is the result of nerf after nerf of the Protoss lategame and Terran lategame buffs. If we nerf DTs then Protoss should at least get its strong carrier back
Imo the biggest problem in TvP lategame is the BC.
I can’t remember seeing BCs vP in a premier since Gumigod pulled it off against Classic.
I mean I don’t think anyone pondering any nerf hasn’t also theorycrafted better Terran optimisations and counter-play. It’s only relatively recent we’re seeing them as a frequent staple of lategame play.
Aside from other differences like being invisible, sexually alluring and able to teleport, you can produce a whole bunch of DTs almost instantly at anywhere you have a prism floating.
Not every (hypothetical) nerf needs a counterbalancing buff, sometimes a unit gets explored and utilised, or the meta develops in such a way it just needs toned down a little.
Changing fungal to being a projectile instead of instant cast back in the day was just an outright good change for example, made landing them still doable for skilled players but made it more forgiving by making splitting or whiffed shots more viable.
I’m happy to have the best Terran minds and hands in the world work on it for a bit and see what they come up with though for sure.
If history is any guide, the best Terran minds will decide that playing a macro game is unviable, and resort to ever more degenerate all-ins.
On August 09 2020 10:06 Argonauta wrote: maybe they should introduce a delay between blinking and dealing dmg?
Aye, I’ve suggested that elsewhere.
I mean a delay means you can still punish gaps, but you can’t nuke stuff instantly/blink on top of bio.
I feel the intent originally and where ideally it should be is for getting your DTs away/not saccing tons of resources if you’re a diligent player, not how we’re seeing them be increasingly used.
Which was cool with the novelty or as part of the Classic story but just feels sillier the more players are incorporating them better in lategame vT
Blink DTs are fine imo.
Each one is close to the cost of a siege tank. They need to be good. And they reward skill. Just because we see stats and parting pulling it off doesn’t mean everyone else can.
The way DTs are used now is the result of nerf after nerf of the Protoss lategame and Terran lategame buffs. If we nerf DTs then Protoss should at least get its strong carrier back
Imo the biggest problem in TvP lategame is the BC.
I can’t remember seeing BCs vP in a premier since Gumigod pulled it off against Classic.
I mean I don’t think anyone pondering any nerf hasn’t also theorycrafted better Terran optimisations and counter-play. It’s only relatively recent we’re seeing them as a frequent staple of lategame play.
Aside from other differences like being invisible, sexually alluring and able to teleport, you can produce a whole bunch of DTs almost instantly at anywhere you have a prism floating.
Not every (hypothetical) nerf needs a counterbalancing buff, sometimes a unit gets explored and utilised, or the meta develops in such a way it just needs toned down a little.
Changing fungal to being a projectile instead of instant cast back in the day was just an outright good change for example, made landing them still doable for skilled players but made it more forgiving by making splitting or whiffed shots more viable.
I’m happy to have the best Terran minds and hands in the world work on it for a bit and see what they come up with though for sure.
If history is any guide, the best Terran minds will decide that playing a macro game is unviable, and resort to ever more degenerate all-ins.
There's not much a Terran can do against Protoss and Zerg runby when moving out with your army. Against Toss, a prism is literally a low risk way to bring an army of zealots or DTs into your base. Against Zerg, lings and banes run into your mineral lines. Both style of runby can deal game ending economy damage. The Terran can only hope that his attack can deal sufficient damage to his opponent making it no different from an all-in each time a Terran moves out.
There is still an option to sit back and play a turtle style against Protoss and eventually win but its impossible to do that against a Zerg.