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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
On August 03 2020 23:00 Oukka wrote: Implying the modern zergs playing ling bane muta aren't affected by the ping just as much? Yes. It's just not the same as bio play. Even Rotti said as much. | ||
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Oukka
Finland1683 Posts
But seriously, I do get where it comes from, I just find it frustrating to hear stuff like this repeated, because zergs over the last two years or so have taken over terrans as the best at utilising multitasking and multiple engagements+multipronged harass. Main army v main army engagements probably are still more involved for terrans, but folk like Serral and Raynor have pushed their race to a level that has in my eyes surpassed the old multi-tasking/harassment based terran play as the most impressive display of skill | ||
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darklycid
3511 Posts
On August 03 2020 23:15 Oukka wrote: Rotti is also well known at playing both high level terran and zerg, right? But seriously, I do get where it comes from, I just find it frustrating to hear stuff like this repeated, because zergs over the last two years or so have taken over terrans as the best at utilising multitasking and multiple engagements+multipronged harass. Main army v main army engagements probably are still more involved for terrans, but folk like Serral and Raynor have pushed their race to a level that has in my eyes surpassed the old multi-tasking/harassment based terran play as the most impressive display of skill Because multiprong with ling bane which require way more attention to react to than execute bc banes just blow up standing forces ones you have enough is so impressive  Edit: Not to say Reynor and Serral aren't really fucking good, but Zerg works in a way where fights are often just setup and collapse onto the opponent which is not as much affected by ping as the non Zerg armies are. Exceptions obv. exist. | ||
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Oukka
Finland1683 Posts
On August 03 2020 23:18 darklycid wrote: Because multiprong with ling bane which require way more attention to react to than execute bc banes just blow up standing forces ones you have enough is so impressive Mmhmhm does it now? Lings approaching mineral line, grab a few marines, press stim, a move? Or grab a few hellions and a-move? With banes to an extent I can agree E: Yeah I as well tried to highlight that the big main army v main army engagements aren't the hardest part for zerg necessarily | ||
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
On August 03 2020 23:15 Oukka wrote: Rotti is also well known at playing both high level terran and zerg, right? But seriously, I do get where it comes from, I just find it frustrating to hear stuff like this repeated, because zergs over the last two years or so have taken over terrans as the best at utilising multitasking and multiple engagements+multipronged harass. Main army v main army engagements probably are still more involved for terrans, but folk like Serral and Raynor have pushed their race to a level that has in my eyes surpassed the old multi-tasking/harassment based terran play as the most impressive display of skill I just brought up Rotti because he could be seen as unbiased, plus he knows tons about the game, even the stuff he doesn't play himself. There are plenty of players saying the same if that's better for you. You don't even have to play top level to see it though. Anyone can play a game at regular ping and then another at 180 ping and feel the difference. This matters most when it comes to precision clicking, much more so than positioning. So trying to target fire speed banes and split against them becomes so much more difficult at high ping than normal. As for zerg, of course it matters for them too, but just not as much. You don't suffer nearly as much from ping when you have to set up a surround and then role in the banes. And you don't need to micro your units as much either since the terran can't do a lot of counter-micro. Just watch a selection of cross-server ZvBio from the recent tournaments, it's plain enough to see. This is not saying that Zerg is easy or that Serral is not very good. | ||
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darklycid
3511 Posts
On August 03 2020 23:24 Oukka wrote: Mmhmhm does it now? Lings approaching mineral line, grab a few marines, press stim, a move? Or grab a few hellions and a-move? With banes to an extent I can agree E: Yeah I as well tried to highlight that the big main army v main army engagements aren't the hardest part for zerg necessarily i mean Lings are normal harrassment but als veery mobile and cheap, which is why they can often cause alot of dmg (also its also about diverting attention from terrans so banes can hit other targets). Banes basically require alot of attention to not eat big damage but i have my gripes with the baneling in lotv as a whole tho so i'm a lil biased. edit: Cure :O | ||
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Elentos
55552 Posts
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darklycid
3511 Posts
On August 03 2020 23:32 Elentos wrote: Did Serral go make some coffee? Doesn't seem like him to AFK lose all his mutas fighting marines. Obv. Ping issue | ||
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
That's some zerg confidence right there. | ||
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
On August 03 2020 23:15 Oukka wrote: Rotti is also well known at playing both high level terran and zerg, right? But seriously, I do get where it comes from, I just find it frustrating to hear stuff like this repeated, because zergs over the last two years or so have taken over terrans as the best at utilising multitasking and multiple engagements+multipronged harass. Main army v main army engagements probably are still more involved for terrans, but folk like Serral and Raynor have pushed their race to a level that has in my eyes surpassed the old multi-tasking/harassment based terran play as the most impressive display of skill Multitasking/harassment are not universally the same, different kind of strategies requires different kind of micro and attention. Zergling/banling runbys require basically no micro compared to terran medivac drops for example. Its like saying current terrans are gods of harassment because they multitask so much, look at those liberators go! No that is not impressive and neither are zergling runbys. Terran drops, bio or mine, hellion harassment, DT harassment, adepts.... There are tons of examples of units that actually require micro compared to zergling runbys. | ||
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Oukka
Finland1683 Posts
On August 03 2020 23:31 darklycid wrote: i mean Lings are normal harrassment but als veery mobile and cheap, which is why they can often cause alot of dmg (also its also about diverting attention from terrans so banes can hit other targets). Banes basically require alot of attention to not eat big damage but i have my gripes with the baneling in lotv as a whole tho so i'm a lil biased. edit: Cure :O Yeah I get that, its the same story that was repeated in TvP in 2011 or such, terrans not needing to do much to drop two medivacs of stim bio to destroy mineral lines or buildings compared to the protoss response. Attacker always has a tempo advantage, of course they are favoured because it is a fight they decided to take and force the defender to respond rather than paying attention to whatever else they'd like to do. And it is the beauty of starcraft, how action and aggressiveness triumphs over sitting at home and maxing out a big ball of units (with some notable *cough* Brood Lords *cough* Infestors *cough* exceptions) E: regarding banelings, yeah that unit doesn't have much depth at least. It is very binary in either being useless or just about looking the strongest thing on the map | ||
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
On August 03 2020 23:36 Oukka wrote: Yeah I get that, its the same story that was repeated in TvP in 2011 or such, terrans not needing to do much to drop two medivacs of stim bio to destroy mineral lines or buildings compared to the protoss response. Attacker always has a tempo advantage, of course they are favoured because it is a fight they decided to take and force the defender to respond rather than paying attention to whatever else they'd like to do. And it is the beauty of starcraft, how action and aggressiveness triumphs over sitting at home and maxing out a big ball of units (with some notable *cough* Brood Lords *cough* Infestors *cough* exceptions) Also a good example of how important map design is. Those giant main bases where you could always find a dark spot to drop in. Just think of how much talk there is of that blind spot on Golden Wall now. I do agree that it's the beauty of starcraft. It's all those parameters to being good there are. But that's also why we really need this game to be played offline in settings that are equal for all players. (fuk u corona) | ||
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darklycid
3511 Posts
On August 03 2020 23:36 Oukka wrote: Yeah I get that, its the same story that was repeated in TvP in 2011 or such, terrans not needing to do much to drop two medivacs of stim bio to destroy mineral lines or buildings compared to the protoss response. Attacker always has a tempo advantage, of course they are favoured because it is a fight they decided to take and force the defender to respond rather than paying attention to whatever else they'd like to do. And it is the beauty of starcraft, how action and aggressiveness triumphs over sitting at home and maxing out a big ball of units (with some notable *cough* Brood Lords *cough* Infestors *cough* exceptions) Well the problem comes with aoe harrassment that can blow up anything in it's way like the bane does i think. Like vs Zerglings, bio etc i can do stuff to prevent it's dmg or minimize it and when i'm a few seconds late it's not that bad, meanwhile vs banes i may have lost my whole eco line, my building (for terrans), or the army i positioned there (esp when it comes to those big bane runbys zerg tend to do in later stages of the game). edit: nice example we just got with the lings distracting and the banes just evaporating the eco in a few seconds :D | ||
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
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UnLarva
458 Posts
In Finland, we have the universal system of general conscription. All Korean post-military SC2 professionals can understand this easily. The Finnish Army (as in it's entirety, including the reserve as a whole) can understand this. For an age cohort he will join in knows the guy... Serral himself can easily understand his destiny. There are no false notes in his history of outcomings, statements, deeds, achievements, or shortcomings. It is only about the fact that The Finnish Defence Forces needs to adapt to a patch... | ||
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darklycid
3511 Posts
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Oukka
Finland1683 Posts
On August 03 2020 23:42 sneakyfox wrote: Btw, if/when Serral takes this map, this series will have been better ping 5-0 worse ping Would be interesting to see the numbers on that across the premier/major cross-region tournaments (TSL5, DH masters, this, the wardi teamleague) for this season. Just to get a grip on how often do folk win on favoured servers vs "server upset" | ||
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WardiTV
576 Posts
On August 03 2020 23:59 Oukka wrote: Would be interesting to see the numbers on that across the premier/major cross-region tournaments (TSL5, DH masters, this, the wardi teamleague) for this season. Just to get a grip on how often do folk win on favoured servers vs "server upset" A lot. Seems servers are pretty bad atm and central is becoming unplayable for korea with 200+ latency. I honestly think cross server play for kr vs eu just dies soon | ||
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UnLarva
458 Posts
On August 03 2020 21:49 Xain0n wrote: It shows you that Reynor has a very strong ZvT at the moment and that Aligulac's ratings inflate over time. You pointed out The most important thing to remember when reading aligulac listings... A) Comparisons within a list are relevant, not over and between the lists of a dozen of periods. B) That Reynor usurper will be the really hard bone to swallow for Serral. :D And generally... Math of Aligulac doesn't need to be taken with a grain of salt (please, program better model!), while the statistical data set behind the rating system needs to be taken as such, but there is easy way to remedy the problem: volunteerism Aligulac doesn't need to be 'perfect', but it needs to be equal for all players playing in a tournament worthy enough to be included. If a player x, y, z, k, t, r, g, are included, then also player w if he/she was playing too in that tournament. There are no "privileged players" within the system, if the system's very idea is to be objective rating system. Otherwise, it is just "grain of salt", but it it is not fault of the math. It's fault of the input and feedback. As a Serral Fanboi [P*R#!K@L], I can assure that there are no dramatical mistakes within his account. Serral's top Korean kill% corresponds very well with the reality by eye-test and rigorous statistical fact checks, probably better, and more accurately, -sadly-, than for many of those, highly respected Top Korean, all time greats. But, how about guys who make it to the stats, but nobody input and/or update them? That is that "grain of salt". | ||
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
On August 04 2020 01:00 WardiTV wrote: A lot. Seems servers are pretty bad atm and central is becoming unplayable for korea with 200+ latency. I honestly think cross server play for kr vs eu just dies soon Welp, that's massive. It's a shame if the season finals has to die for this, but I agree that no competition is better than competition that cannot provide equal conditions for all players. | ||
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