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digmouse
China6329 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/wxfh3Mx.png)  Douyu Cup/2020![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/08h88.png)  SCBoy |  ![[image loading]](https://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/7/7f/Twitch_ico.png) Wardi |  O'Gaming SC2 |  IntoTheiNu / Crank![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/gsiQ0.png) ![[image loading]](/staff/digmouse/dyc.png) August 3: Winner's Round 1 August 4: Loser's Round 1 August 6: Winner's Round 2 & Loser's Round 2 August 12: Winner's Finals & Loser's Round 3 & 4 August 13: Loser's Finals & Grand Finals ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/L6Pww.png) Douyu Cup/2020 | ||
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
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WardiTV
576 Posts
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Vladoks
Germany136 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25506 Posts
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Lorning
Belgica34432 Posts
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ilax30
720 Posts
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youaremysin
119 Posts
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
On August 03 2020 20:47 youaremysin wrote: After this match reynor is the highest rated player vs T of all Times on aligulac. Yeah that shows you aligulac rankings should always be taken with a grain of salt. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On August 03 2020 21:15 sneakyfox wrote: Epic probe micro from zest there Yeah that shows you aligulac rankings should always be taken with a grain of salt. It shows you that Reynor has a very strong ZvT at the moment and that Aligulac's ratings inflate over time. | ||
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darklycid
3511 Posts
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
Really hype for Cure vs Serrallll | ||
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Oukka
Finland1683 Posts
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Lorning
Belgica34432 Posts
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darklycid
3511 Posts
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Lazzarus
Faroe Islands114 Posts
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
On August 03 2020 22:58 darklycid wrote: These mech games recently are kinda depressing :D Yeah but what can you do with 180 ping? | ||
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Oukka
Finland1683 Posts
Implying the modern zergs playing ling bane muta aren't affected by the ping just as much? | ||
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darklycid
3511 Posts
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
On August 03 2020 23:00 Oukka wrote: Implying the modern zergs playing ling bane muta aren't affected by the ping just as much? Yes. It's just not the same as bio play. Even Rotti said as much. | ||
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Oukka
Finland1683 Posts
But seriously, I do get where it comes from, I just find it frustrating to hear stuff like this repeated, because zergs over the last two years or so have taken over terrans as the best at utilising multitasking and multiple engagements+multipronged harass. Main army v main army engagements probably are still more involved for terrans, but folk like Serral and Raynor have pushed their race to a level that has in my eyes surpassed the old multi-tasking/harassment based terran play as the most impressive display of skill | ||
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darklycid
3511 Posts
On August 03 2020 23:15 Oukka wrote: Rotti is also well known at playing both high level terran and zerg, right? But seriously, I do get where it comes from, I just find it frustrating to hear stuff like this repeated, because zergs over the last two years or so have taken over terrans as the best at utilising multitasking and multiple engagements+multipronged harass. Main army v main army engagements probably are still more involved for terrans, but folk like Serral and Raynor have pushed their race to a level that has in my eyes surpassed the old multi-tasking/harassment based terran play as the most impressive display of skill Because multiprong with ling bane which require way more attention to react to than execute bc banes just blow up standing forces ones you have enough is so impressive Edit: Not to say Reynor and Serral aren't really fucking good, but Zerg works in a way where fights are often just setup and collapse onto the opponent which is not as much affected by ping as the non Zerg armies are. Exceptions obv. exist. | ||
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Oukka
Finland1683 Posts
On August 03 2020 23:18 darklycid wrote: Because multiprong with ling bane which require way more attention to react to than execute bc banes just blow up standing forces ones you have enough is so impressive Mmhmhm does it now? Lings approaching mineral line, grab a few marines, press stim, a move? Or grab a few hellions and a-move? With banes to an extent I can agree E: Yeah I as well tried to highlight that the big main army v main army engagements aren't the hardest part for zerg necessarily | ||
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
On August 03 2020 23:15 Oukka wrote: Rotti is also well known at playing both high level terran and zerg, right? But seriously, I do get where it comes from, I just find it frustrating to hear stuff like this repeated, because zergs over the last two years or so have taken over terrans as the best at utilising multitasking and multiple engagements+multipronged harass. Main army v main army engagements probably are still more involved for terrans, but folk like Serral and Raynor have pushed their race to a level that has in my eyes surpassed the old multi-tasking/harassment based terran play as the most impressive display of skill I just brought up Rotti because he could be seen as unbiased, plus he knows tons about the game, even the stuff he doesn't play himself. There are plenty of players saying the same if that's better for you. You don't even have to play top level to see it though. Anyone can play a game at regular ping and then another at 180 ping and feel the difference. This matters most when it comes to precision clicking, much more so than positioning. So trying to target fire speed banes and split against them becomes so much more difficult at high ping than normal. As for zerg, of course it matters for them too, but just not as much. You don't suffer nearly as much from ping when you have to set up a surround and then role in the banes. And you don't need to micro your units as much either since the terran can't do a lot of counter-micro. Just watch a selection of cross-server ZvBio from the recent tournaments, it's plain enough to see. This is not saying that Zerg is easy or that Serral is not very good. | ||
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darklycid
3511 Posts
On August 03 2020 23:24 Oukka wrote: Mmhmhm does it now? Lings approaching mineral line, grab a few marines, press stim, a move? Or grab a few hellions and a-move? With banes to an extent I can agree E: Yeah I as well tried to highlight that the big main army v main army engagements aren't the hardest part for zerg necessarily i mean Lings are normal harrassment but als veery mobile and cheap, which is why they can often cause alot of dmg (also its also about diverting attention from terrans so banes can hit other targets). Banes basically require alot of attention to not eat big damage but i have my gripes with the baneling in lotv as a whole tho so i'm a lil biased. edit: Cure :O | ||
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Elentos
55552 Posts
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darklycid
3511 Posts
On August 03 2020 23:32 Elentos wrote: Did Serral go make some coffee? Doesn't seem like him to AFK lose all his mutas fighting marines. Obv. Ping issue | ||
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
That's some zerg confidence right there. | ||
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
On August 03 2020 23:15 Oukka wrote: Rotti is also well known at playing both high level terran and zerg, right? But seriously, I do get where it comes from, I just find it frustrating to hear stuff like this repeated, because zergs over the last two years or so have taken over terrans as the best at utilising multitasking and multiple engagements+multipronged harass. Main army v main army engagements probably are still more involved for terrans, but folk like Serral and Raynor have pushed their race to a level that has in my eyes surpassed the old multi-tasking/harassment based terran play as the most impressive display of skill Multitasking/harassment are not universally the same, different kind of strategies requires different kind of micro and attention. Zergling/banling runbys require basically no micro compared to terran medivac drops for example. Its like saying current terrans are gods of harassment because they multitask so much, look at those liberators go! No that is not impressive and neither are zergling runbys. Terran drops, bio or mine, hellion harassment, DT harassment, adepts.... There are tons of examples of units that actually require micro compared to zergling runbys. | ||
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Oukka
Finland1683 Posts
On August 03 2020 23:31 darklycid wrote: i mean Lings are normal harrassment but als veery mobile and cheap, which is why they can often cause alot of dmg (also its also about diverting attention from terrans so banes can hit other targets). Banes basically require alot of attention to not eat big damage but i have my gripes with the baneling in lotv as a whole tho so i'm a lil biased. edit: Cure :O Yeah I get that, its the same story that was repeated in TvP in 2011 or such, terrans not needing to do much to drop two medivacs of stim bio to destroy mineral lines or buildings compared to the protoss response. Attacker always has a tempo advantage, of course they are favoured because it is a fight they decided to take and force the defender to respond rather than paying attention to whatever else they'd like to do. And it is the beauty of starcraft, how action and aggressiveness triumphs over sitting at home and maxing out a big ball of units (with some notable *cough* Brood Lords *cough* Infestors *cough* exceptions) E: regarding banelings, yeah that unit doesn't have much depth at least. It is very binary in either being useless or just about looking the strongest thing on the map | ||
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
On August 03 2020 23:36 Oukka wrote: Yeah I get that, its the same story that was repeated in TvP in 2011 or such, terrans not needing to do much to drop two medivacs of stim bio to destroy mineral lines or buildings compared to the protoss response. Attacker always has a tempo advantage, of course they are favoured because it is a fight they decided to take and force the defender to respond rather than paying attention to whatever else they'd like to do. And it is the beauty of starcraft, how action and aggressiveness triumphs over sitting at home and maxing out a big ball of units (with some notable *cough* Brood Lords *cough* Infestors *cough* exceptions) Also a good example of how important map design is. Those giant main bases where you could always find a dark spot to drop in. Just think of how much talk there is of that blind spot on Golden Wall now. I do agree that it's the beauty of starcraft. It's all those parameters to being good there are. But that's also why we really need this game to be played offline in settings that are equal for all players. (fuk u corona) | ||
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darklycid
3511 Posts
On August 03 2020 23:36 Oukka wrote: Yeah I get that, its the same story that was repeated in TvP in 2011 or such, terrans not needing to do much to drop two medivacs of stim bio to destroy mineral lines or buildings compared to the protoss response. Attacker always has a tempo advantage, of course they are favoured because it is a fight they decided to take and force the defender to respond rather than paying attention to whatever else they'd like to do. And it is the beauty of starcraft, how action and aggressiveness triumphs over sitting at home and maxing out a big ball of units (with some notable *cough* Brood Lords *cough* Infestors *cough* exceptions) Well the problem comes with aoe harrassment that can blow up anything in it's way like the bane does i think. Like vs Zerglings, bio etc i can do stuff to prevent it's dmg or minimize it and when i'm a few seconds late it's not that bad, meanwhile vs banes i may have lost my whole eco line, my building (for terrans), or the army i positioned there (esp when it comes to those big bane runbys zerg tend to do in later stages of the game). edit: nice example we just got with the lings distracting and the banes just evaporating the eco in a few seconds :D | ||
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
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UnLarva
458 Posts
In Finland, we have the universal system of general conscription. All Korean post-military SC2 professionals can understand this easily. The Finnish Army (as in it's entirety, including the reserve as a whole) can understand this. For an age cohort he will join in knows the guy... Serral himself can easily understand his destiny. There are no false notes in his history of outcomings, statements, deeds, achievements, or shortcomings. It is only about the fact that The Finnish Defence Forces needs to adapt to a patch... | ||
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darklycid
3511 Posts
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Oukka
Finland1683 Posts
On August 03 2020 23:42 sneakyfox wrote: Btw, if/when Serral takes this map, this series will have been better ping 5-0 worse ping Would be interesting to see the numbers on that across the premier/major cross-region tournaments (TSL5, DH masters, this, the wardi teamleague) for this season. Just to get a grip on how often do folk win on favoured servers vs "server upset" | ||
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WardiTV
576 Posts
On August 03 2020 23:59 Oukka wrote: Would be interesting to see the numbers on that across the premier/major cross-region tournaments (TSL5, DH masters, this, the wardi teamleague) for this season. Just to get a grip on how often do folk win on favoured servers vs "server upset" A lot. Seems servers are pretty bad atm and central is becoming unplayable for korea with 200+ latency. I honestly think cross server play for kr vs eu just dies soon | ||
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UnLarva
458 Posts
On August 03 2020 21:49 Xain0n wrote: It shows you that Reynor has a very strong ZvT at the moment and that Aligulac's ratings inflate over time. You pointed out The most important thing to remember when reading aligulac listings... A) Comparisons within a list are relevant, not over and between the lists of a dozen of periods. B) That Reynor usurper will be the really hard bone to swallow for Serral. :D And generally... Math of Aligulac doesn't need to be taken with a grain of salt (please, program better model!), while the statistical data set behind the rating system needs to be taken as such, but there is easy way to remedy the problem: volunteerism Aligulac doesn't need to be 'perfect', but it needs to be equal for all players playing in a tournament worthy enough to be included. If a player x, y, z, k, t, r, g, are included, then also player w if he/she was playing too in that tournament. There are no "privileged players" within the system, if the system's very idea is to be objective rating system. Otherwise, it is just "grain of salt", but it it is not fault of the math. It's fault of the input and feedback. As a Serral Fanboi [P*R#!K@L], I can assure that there are no dramatical mistakes within his account. Serral's top Korean kill% corresponds very well with the reality by eye-test and rigorous statistical fact checks, probably better, and more accurately, -sadly-, than for many of those, highly respected Top Korean, all time greats. But, how about guys who make it to the stats, but nobody input and/or update them? That is that "grain of salt". | ||
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
On August 04 2020 01:00 WardiTV wrote: A lot. Seems servers are pretty bad atm and central is becoming unplayable for korea with 200+ latency. I honestly think cross server play for kr vs eu just dies soon Welp, that's massive. It's a shame if the season finals has to die for this, but I agree that no competition is better than competition that cannot provide equal conditions for all players. | ||
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UnLarva
458 Posts
If this is stupid question, ignore it, but when its clear that such delays exist, and they can be measured (obviously), they can be apparently and obviously also handled in situ (by tournament admin with help of tools by Blizzard co.) too, at least theoretically. Edit: In other words: If there is a measurable lag for other player, introduce that same lag for the another. Within a Server, in real time. | ||
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mierin
United States4943 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25506 Posts
On August 04 2020 02:04 UnLarva wrote: Would it be possible to programmatically "mirror" a delay in a match equally for both players, if one is suffering from the measurable handicap? If this is stupid question, ignore it, but when its clear that such delays exist, and they can be measured (obviously), they can be apparently and obviously also handled in situ (by tournament admin with help of tools by Blizzard co.) too, at least theoretically. Edit: In other words: If there is a measurable lag for other player, introduce that same lag for the another. Within a Server, in real time. I’d assume so, I mean Bnet has a built in minimum latency right? Could just upscale it to whatever latency (roughly) the disadvantaged player has? Granted I don’t know much and could be talking out of my ass. Latency equalisation isn’t really the problem here anyway, the handicap comes from latency affecting certain styles more than others. Hell its a muscle memory thing too, especially with stutter stepping bio it’s very rhythmic and you get attuned to a certain latency. I’m sure it’s not just me that fucks up micro playing offline with zero latency just because it’s a different thing than we’re used to. | ||
Poopi
France12886 Posts
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Harris1st
Germany6934 Posts
On August 04 2020 01:00 WardiTV wrote: A lot. Seems servers are pretty bad atm and central is becoming unplayable for korea with 200+ latency. I honestly think cross server play for kr vs eu just dies soon Do you know any specific reasons for why it's getting worse? Or was it always that bad, we just didn't know it, because important events were offline anyway? Or is it Covid related that Blizzard neglects their server farms? | ||
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mikedupp
233 Posts
On August 04 2020 20:21 Harris1st wrote: Do you know any specific reasons for why it's getting worse? Or was it always that bad, we just didn't know it, because important events were offline anyway? Or is it Covid related that Blizzard neglects their server farms? Started like 4-5 months ago. I've seen Kiwian's ping shoot up to 250 consistently during esl na cups on central. Also heard PartinG and Special say central has been "fucked up for months." Even NA West has been 150ish at times you could see. That's why Special was upset about the server rules in tsl qualifiers I think. Makes sense cause 200+ ping is where the game is completely different. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25506 Posts
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digmouse
China6329 Posts
On August 04 2020 22:07 Wombat_NI wrote: I miss much with my boy Trap taking on Thermy? Set score seems to indicate a pretty decent series uThermal tapped out a game that could still go on in game 5. | ||
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darklycid
3511 Posts
On August 04 2020 22:18 digmouse wrote: uThermal tapped out a game that could still go on in game 5. Classic thermy. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25506 Posts
On August 04 2020 22:18 digmouse wrote: uThermal tapped out a game that could still go on in game 5. Cheers for the info | ||
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mikedupp
233 Posts
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Oukka
Finland1683 Posts
On August 04 2020 01:00 WardiTV wrote: A lot. Seems servers are pretty bad atm and central is becoming unplayable for korea with 200+ latency. I honestly think cross server play for kr vs eu just dies soon Oh man that's really a shame. You and other organisers and casters have done such a good job brining StarCraft to us despite the circumstances. If it is Blizzard's infrastructure that makes it harder it would be so frustrating. Obviously if it is ISPs and in general the natural problems of inter-continent connections then not much anyone can do about that. Here's to hoping world is in a state allowing offline events asap. | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4948 Posts
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Fuell
Netherlands3111 Posts
Pretty high-level stuff, definitely looking forward! | ||
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encoded_evil
29 Posts
grts | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6934 Posts
HYYYPUUU | ||
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whiterabbit
2675 Posts
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
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dbRic1203
Germany2655 Posts
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yht9657
1810 Posts
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HeroSandro
531 Posts
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stilt
France2749 Posts
Then Reynor massively fucks up. But Zest floats 1.2k min on 2 bases at 7min30 and loses once again the prism. What a game, what a game x) | ||
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yht9657
1810 Posts
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Gina
241 Posts
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royalroadweed
United States8301 Posts
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darklycid
3511 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33416 Posts
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darklycid
3511 Posts
) | ||
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stilt
France2749 Posts
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darklycid
3511 Posts
On August 06 2020 21:16 stilt wrote: It's nice to see this sort of zvp without banelings. Hm maybe, doesn't seem like protoss has a better chance tho :D | ||
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Lazzarus
Faroe Islands114 Posts
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Elentos
55552 Posts
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stilt
France2749 Posts
On August 06 2020 21:21 Elentos wrote: I feel like that game had potential for Stats but that one moveout went super poorly. Lost a disruptor, I thought his recall timing was good but Serral just biled down a bunch of stuff primarily a colossus. Then he lost the other disruptor trying to defend. And all that on 1 robo :S Not only that, he lost his fourth in construction, it was a disaster. | ||
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Elentos
55552 Posts
On August 06 2020 21:22 stilt wrote: Not only that, he lost his fourth in construction, it was a disaster. He managed to cancel it last second but yeah it went real bad real quick. | ||
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darklycid
3511 Posts
On August 06 2020 21:23 Elentos wrote: He managed to cancel it last second but yeah it went real bad real quick. Serral was also up 60 supply or so after he killed the colossus. Also i don't kno, i fail to see potential here after serral hit the 70+ drone eco (esp because it's serral and serral normally doesn't do stupid throws in zvp from a postition like that.) | ||
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Elentos
55552 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33416 Posts
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Elentos
55552 Posts
On August 06 2020 21:24 darklycid wrote: Also i don't kno, i fail to see potential here Yeah but you're very slightly biased against Zerg | ||
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darklycid
3511 Posts
On August 06 2020 21:27 Elentos wrote: Yeah but you're very slightly biased against Zerg I don't deny that :D But with Serral esp. i think my bias is pretty fair | ||
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Elentos
55552 Posts
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darklycid
3511 Posts
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Elentos
55552 Posts
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yht9657
1810 Posts
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royalroadweed
United States8301 Posts
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Elentos
55552 Posts
On August 06 2020 21:32 yht9657 wrote: Stats is a god Never doubt Stats, only doubt Protoss | ||
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darklycid
3511 Posts
Tbf memeing like this myself + pvz through 2019+20 made me very cynical for pvz i guess, and fueled my bias against the goddamn bugs :D | ||
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Lazzarus
Faroe Islands114 Posts
On August 06 2020 21:21 Lazzarus wrote: What server are they playing on? is it Stats or Serral server advantage this game? Was Stats advantage | ||
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
On August 06 2020 21:21 Lazzarus wrote: What server are they playing on? is it Stats or Serral server advantage this game? 2-0 for the better ping so far. | ||
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Elentos
55552 Posts
Ping imba | ||
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Z3nith
485 Posts
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darklycid
3511 Posts
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
DK please | ||
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Waxangel
United States33416 Posts
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Elentos
55552 Posts
On August 06 2020 21:36 Waxangel wrote: season finals making people dig up ping-talk that had been forgotten for like 7 years is the lamest development of 2020 (literally) It shouldn't be the default excuse for every result you don't like but it seems like it's worse this year than before. Like getting progressively worse. On August 04 2020 01:00 WardiTV wrote: A lot. Seems servers are pretty bad atm and central is becoming unplayable for korea with 200+ latency. I honestly think cross server play for kr vs eu just dies soon It's pretty drastic and the ping talk is warranted when you read stuff like this. | ||
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darklycid
3511 Posts
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
On August 06 2020 21:38 Elentos wrote: It shouldn't be the default excuse for every result you don't like but it seems like it's worse this year than before. Like getting progressively worse. It's pretty drastic and the ping talk is warranted when you read stuff like this. Indeed. Not to speak of how lame it is to pretend that ping is irrelevant in a game like SC2. | ||
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Elentos
55552 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33416 Posts
On August 06 2020 21:38 Elentos wrote: It shouldn't be the default excuse for every result you don't like but it seems like it's worse this year than before. Like getting progressively worse. It's pretty drastic and the ping talk is warranted when you read stuff like this. very tangentially related but I saw two trucks carrying giant spools of underwater copper cable through the streets last week  | ||
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yht9657
1810 Posts
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Elentos
55552 Posts
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Z3nith
485 Posts
On August 06 2020 21:47 Elentos wrote: I don't know about you but +2 banelings one-shotting workers feels like the most over the top interaction considering there's never only 1 bane This | ||
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darklycid
3511 Posts
Nah it's there so when you have defense there the last bane still gets like 8 probes | ||
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digmouse
China6329 Posts
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stilt
France2749 Posts
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darklycid
3511 Posts
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Lazzarus
Faroe Islands114 Posts
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Elentos
55552 Posts
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darklycid
3511 Posts
On August 06 2020 21:54 Elentos wrote: So Stats plays normal on NA central but Serral plays weird and cheesy on west. Bad Ping does things to you man. | ||
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Elentos
55552 Posts
Makes people play standard Protoss games. | ||
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
What weird reality is this | ||
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darklycid
3511 Posts
It's a hallucinogen, makes you dream it's possible | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12205 Posts
I can't shake the feeling that he's doing that because he'd have too high a winrate if he was just doing the build he does in game 5 of these every game. | ||
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yht9657
1810 Posts
On August 06 2020 21:57 Nebuchad wrote: Serral keeps winning his series 3-2 vs protoss but that's never because these are close series it's always because he does some shit builds when he's up 2-1 and he loses doing them. I can't shake the feeling that he's doing that because he'd have too high a winrate if he was just doing the build he does in game 5 of these every game. Gotta give protoss players something to hope for in case they just retire and you get less free wins | ||
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Elentos
55552 Posts
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
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Zzzapper
1796 Posts
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geokilla
Canada8240 Posts
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Elentos
55552 Posts
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Lazzarus
Faroe Islands114 Posts
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Z3nith
485 Posts
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ChaosArcher
Germany956 Posts
Well, could be much worse | ||
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium4011 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25506 Posts
On August 06 2020 21:38 Elentos wrote: It shouldn't be the default excuse for every result you don't like but it seems like it's worse this year than before. Like getting progressively worse. It's pretty drastic and the ping talk is warranted when you read stuff like this. I’ve heard it elsewhere too. It’s not that people are complaining about cross server ping but apparently some of the servers are just outright laggier than they’ve historically been. 120-150 ping levels with a 30ms swing in terms of advantage to a player aren’t ideal compared to offline, but are playable at least. Heard talk that players are getting 200+ with spikes and that really makes the game just outright difficult to play. My Protoss boys aren’t having much joy so far, hopefully Trap can pull it out! Especially as Solar looks rather iffy defending Adepts of the gloved variety. | ||
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darklycid
3511 Posts
On August 06 2020 22:12 Wombat_NI wrote: I’ve heard it elsewhere too. It’s not that people are complaining about cross server ping but apparently some of the servers are just outright laggier than they’ve historically been. 120-150 ping levels with a 30ms swing in terms of advantage to a player aren’t ideal compared to offline, but are playable at least. Heard talk that players are getting 200+ with spikes and that really makes the game just outright difficult to play. My Protoss boys aren’t having much joy so far, hopefully Trap can pull it out! Especially as Solar looks rather iffy defending Adepts of the gloved variety. Going by their GSL Match i'd favor trap here Solar looked pretty lost there, even in the game he won he didn't look what i'd call convicning. | ||
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Oukka
Finland1683 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25506 Posts
On August 06 2020 21:57 Nebuchad wrote: Serral keeps winning his series 3-2 vs protoss but that's never because these are close series it's always because he does some shit builds when he's up 2-1 and he loses doing them. I can't shake the feeling that he's doing that because he'd have too high a winrate if he was just doing the build he does in game 5 of these every game. He’s trying to keep Aligulac inflation within reasonable parameters. When I saw Serral experimenting with more builds like this I thought it was sensible, one of if not the best macro players out there also having good cheeses and aggression to worry about I’m rather less sure now, whether he’s just getting bad luck, is using trash builds or he just doesn’t feel comfortable playing that way he just seems to throw games away doing it. We shall see how he goes with this experimentation. When Dark or Rogue do it it looks scary, even when they do fail with it. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25506 Posts
On August 06 2020 22:14 darklycid wrote: Going by their GSL Match i'd favor trap here Solar looked pretty lost there, even in the game he won he didn't look what i'd call convicning. I would echo this. Man I’ve been watching so much SC lately I forgot that Trap and Solar faced off in the Ro16 recently. That said I do think Zerg get a bit of a boost when we’re pushing into bo5s and 7s. Gets harder to have more good counter builds with solid execution the longer things go on. | ||
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darklycid
3511 Posts
Edit: But basically this is why i favor trap, even if Solar gets into a good position he seems kinda off currently vs these colossus compositions, also taking these kind of engagements doesn't help :D | ||
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darklycid
3511 Posts
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darklycid
3511 Posts
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geokilla
Canada8240 Posts
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darklycid
3511 Posts
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darklycid
3511 Posts
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geokilla
Canada8240 Posts
On August 06 2020 22:57 darklycid wrote: Army comp is fine but he always takes the worst final fights ever in this series. That wasn't a good army comp with the fight he took. The Colossi basically one shot the lings and banes. If he was going to fight like that, probably a full Roach Ravager army would have been better. | ||
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darklycid
3511 Posts
On August 06 2020 23:04 geokilla wrote: That wasn't a good army comp with the fight he took. The Colossi basically one shot the lings and banes. If he was going to fight like that, probably a full Roach Ravager army would have been better. Obv ith the fights he took the army comp was bad, but the theme of the series was that solar fucked up the fights, so i'd argue that the army comp is fine but Solars engagements absolutely weren't. | ||
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stilt
France2749 Posts
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darklycid
3511 Posts
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darklycid
3511 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25506 Posts
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royalroadweed
United States8301 Posts
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Fuell
Netherlands3111 Posts
On August 06 2020 23:36 royalroadweed wrote: I think that was a throw by inno. He could have killed parting if he just amoved the third instead of trying to catch phoenixes. The time he wasted allowed +2 to finish and parting was even able to get disruptors eventually. I think he preferred to fight without overcharge involved edit: kite* | ||
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Oukka
Finland1683 Posts
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darklycid
3511 Posts
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darklycid
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Fuell
Netherlands3111 Posts
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Rubicant1
115 Posts
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darklycid
3511 Posts
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stilt
France2749 Posts
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geokilla
Canada8240 Posts
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darklycid
3511 Posts
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Rubicant1
115 Posts
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dbRic1203
Germany2655 Posts
On August 07 2020 00:13 Rubicant1 wrote: Parting with these mega Fantasy GG timings lately. It s mostly in the very last map, it feels like he isn t ready to give up jet, and is still procesing his loss. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
On August 07 2020 00:29 dbRic1203 wrote: It s mostly in the very last map, it feels like he isn t ready to give up jet, and is still procesing his loss. By that logic, every last map of a series should drag out indefinitely no matter how hopefully lost the situation is. Processing loss prior to gg typically means hands off computer and face buried in hands, not stubbornly playing on. | ||
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digmouse
China6329 Posts
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Harris1st
Germany6934 Posts
On August 07 2020 12:16 digmouse wrote: Just realized we have Reynor vs Serral again somehow. EU bois too good | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25506 Posts
On August 07 2020 12:16 digmouse wrote: Just realized we have Reynor vs Serral again somehow. Finally, a chance to see these two titans finally face off! At this stage I wonder if this is the other side of the Maru v Serral curse. Excited to see my boy Trap try and avenge his GSL loss against a Stats who is looking in great shape and Zest and Inno showing off too. Been a great tourney such far hopefully the remaining matches can live up to the hype! | ||
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dbRic1203
Germany2655 Posts
E: What a throw by Trap though | ||
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Zzzapper
1796 Posts
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SamirDuran
Philippines894 Posts
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kottbullar
Australia490 Posts
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Zzzapper
1796 Posts
btw, NightMare has been playing some online cups recently. Are the stars aligned for a comeback from the stride pioneer? | ||
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nojok
France15845 Posts
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Zzzapper
1796 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4948 Posts
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Oukka
Finland1683 Posts
E: so Serral just mopped the floor with Reynor in the first two maps. Especially that second didn't even look like a fair fight. | ||
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Zzzapper
1796 Posts
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StarcraftPeffo
Italy66 Posts
On August 12 2020 22:47 Zzzapper wrote: This is the 16th Bo5+ between Reynor and Serral in just above 2 years, that's quite a lot Classico indeed :D | ||
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HolydaKing
21254 Posts
On August 12 2020 22:47 Zzzapper wrote: This is the 16th Bo5+ between Reynor and Serral in just above 2 years, that's quite a lot Lol, and #17 is very likely coming tomorrow. Is the winner of this series gaining anything of an advantage btw?  edit: Guessing the armor upgrade advantage made the difference in the end? | ||
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dbRic1203
Germany2655 Posts
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digmouse
China6329 Posts
On August 12 2020 22:54 HolydaKing wrote: Lol, and #17 is very likely coming tomorrow. Is the winner of this series gaining anything of an advantage btw? edit: Guessing the armor upgrade advantage made the difference in the end? Grand finals are straight BO7 with no winner's advantage. | ||
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stilt
France2749 Posts
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Zzzapper
1796 Posts
On August 12 2020 22:54 HolydaKing wrote: Lol, and #17 is very likely coming tomorrow. Is the winner of this series gaining anything of an advantage btw? edit: Guessing the armor upgrade advantage made the difference in the end? I don't think that upgrade made that big of a difference. Reynor got way too much damage on the 4th with just a few roaches, then Serral got into a bad position with hydras which can't retreat well. | ||
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Zzzapper
1796 Posts
I guess he hit it well enough to stay in the game but Reynor stays comfortably ahead | ||
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dbRic1203
Germany2655 Posts
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Oukka
Finland1683 Posts
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dbRic1203
Germany2655 Posts
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Zzzapper
1796 Posts
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HolydaKing
21254 Posts
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dysenterymd
1237 Posts
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Zzzapper
1796 Posts
On August 12 2020 23:18 dysenterymd wrote: If Trap beats Zest we might have a repeat of the DH season finals where Trap pulls out a sick win only to get slaughtered cuz two zerg in a row lol which was itself a repeat of Zest's Katowice run | ||
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HolydaKing
21254 Posts
On August 12 2020 23:18 dysenterymd wrote: If Trap beats Zest we might have a repeat of the DH season finals where Trap pulls out a sick win only to get slaughtered cuz two zerg in a row lol To be fair, it's Serral and Reynor. They are not any Zerg, look how well the Korean Zergs did against Protoss in this tournament. | ||
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Oukka
Finland1683 Posts
On August 12 2020 23:22 HolydaKing wrote: To be fair, it's Serral and Reynor. They are not any Zerg, look how well the Korean Zergs did against Protoss in this tournament. Reynor and Serral are the only zergs to have won a ZvP series in this entire tournament btw. The group stages did not have too many ZvP matches in them, but every zerg not named Reynor or Serral lost those. | ||
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Fuell
Netherlands3111 Posts
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
On August 13 2020 00:09 Fuell wrote: hows zest's pvz lol Usually extremely poor | ||
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dysenterymd
1237 Posts
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arcane1129
United States271 Posts
On August 13 2020 00:09 Fuell wrote: hows zest's pvz lol 90% glaive adepts, 8% other all-ins, 2% getting wrecked in a standard game | ||
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Elentos
55552 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25506 Posts
On August 13 2020 20:41 Elentos wrote: Zest could already be 2-0 up at this point. Reynor is gonna have to put in work to get to the finals, Zest is making it tough. Why did Zest leave his adepts exposed at his third there? Argh come on mang! | ||
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Elentos
55552 Posts
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
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stilt
France2749 Posts
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Elentos
55552 Posts
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stilt
France2749 Posts
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Elentos
55552 Posts
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darklycid
3511 Posts
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Elentos
55552 Posts
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stilt
France2749 Posts
On August 13 2020 21:12 Elentos wrote: I hope Reynor submits that game to Harstem's "Is it imba or do I suck" series Why ? There is nothing to say about it. | ||
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darklycid
3511 Posts
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Elentos
55552 Posts
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Russano
United States425 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25506 Posts
Also how do you turn your oracles into disco balls? /dance? | ||
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Elentos
55552 Posts
On August 13 2020 21:25 Wombat_NI wrote: Zest what? Also how do you turn your oracles into disco balls? /dance? Yeah it's their dance. | ||
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darklycid
3511 Posts
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stilt
France2749 Posts
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darklycid
3511 Posts
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dysenterymd
1237 Posts
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stilt
France2749 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25506 Posts
Sweet, I’m ready to take my game onto new levels of psychological warfare. | ||
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Elentos
55552 Posts
On August 13 2020 21:29 darklycid wrote: I don't think i quite understand how Zest wins games, i guess he just does it. The answer is shenanigans. Compared to Zest everybody else's play is boring and has no flair | ||
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tigon_ridge
482 Posts
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dysenterymd
1237 Posts
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darklycid
3511 Posts
On August 13 2020 21:42 Elentos wrote: The answer is shenanigans. Compared to Zest everybody else's play is boring and has no flair I don't think Zest himself fully understands how he wins Mostly it looks like he just wings it, see g2 where he sat a solid minute or so on 4 gates and did nothing except warp in some adepts | ||
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Jacenoob
299 Posts
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dbRic1203
Germany2655 Posts
On August 13 2020 21:46 tigon_ridge wrote: Remember when people believed that Reynor's high rating was merely because he farmed foreigners, and rating is just a number that means nothing since he couldn't beat Koreans? He's proving that Aligulac doesn't care about your pro-GSL bias. Reynor has been collecting code S heads lately, just as his rating predicts. Well Aligulac says the most likely outcome would ve been 4-1 for Reynor, so he kind of underperformed in this one Anyways, I still think Alligulc is worth more, than many people think. You just have to take it with a grain of salt. I d like to think, that if you give every Korean (+ Players who play KRs a lot like Special and Scarlett) give a 200 Points boost, it is very, very accurate. Reynor and Serral would still be on top, wich seems fair, looking at their overall level of play recently. I mean in this Doyou Cup, we had every GSL Ro8 player but DRG and almost all Ro16 Players as well. Still its Reynor Serral in the End. | ||
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dysenterymd
1237 Posts
Edit: followed by a huge throw | ||
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stilt
France2749 Posts
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tigon_ridge
482 Posts
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darklycid
3511 Posts
On August 13 2020 21:55 dbRic1203 wrote: Well Aligulac says the most likely outcome would ve been 4-1 for Reynor, so he kind of underperformed in this one Anyways, I still think Alligulc is worth more, than many people think. You just have to take it with a grain of salt. I d like to think, that if you give every Korean (+ Players who play KRs a lot like Special and Scarlett) give a 200 Points boost, it is very, very accurate. Reynor and Serral would still be on top, wich seems fair, looking at their overall level of play recently. I mean in this Doyou Cup, we had every GSL Ro8 player but DRG and almost all Ro16 Players as well. Still its Reynor Serral in the End. I don't know while i def see serral and reynor as top players i still think if they were in the korea eco system they wouldn't dominate gsl as they do the eu wcs, and probably even have some early exists sometimes. | ||
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Jacenoob
299 Posts
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dysenterymd
1237 Posts
I guess there's some consolation in Serral kinda throwing both games. | ||
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Tsubbi
Germany7996 Posts
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On August 13 2020 21:52 dysenterymd wrote: Meh. I think it's very hard to tell how good Serral and Reynor are when all their matches are online. They're both definitely top 10 players and probably even top 5 players, but until offline tournaments resume we won't know for sure. Nice bait man, nice bait. | ||
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tigon_ridge
482 Posts
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dbRic1203
Germany2655 Posts
On August 13 2020 22:08 darklycid wrote: I don't know while i def see serral and reynor as top players i still think if they were in the korea eco system they wouldn't dominate gsl as they do the eu wcs, and probably even have some early exists sometimes. I mean everyone can have early exits sometimes (like Rogue Season 1 2020 or Maru Season 2 2019) but I think its absolutly reasonable to count them as absolute title contenders, if they play GSL. Just like 4-6 other players as well. I think I heard somewhere, that Reynor want s to go to Kr again, once the whole Corona situation is resolved. Will be amazing to see him in Group Nominations bantering with the other Koreans :D | ||
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royalroadweed
United States8301 Posts
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stilt
France2749 Posts
On August 13 2020 21:42 Elentos wrote: The answer is shenanigans. Compared to Zest everybody else's play is boring and has no flair He is the only player I dislike for his playstyle but cmon, you forgot sOs, what a dirty man, I still can't forgive him for his 2 blizzcon titles and katowice 2014 | ||
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Luolis
Finland7111 Posts
On August 13 2020 22:11 Tsubbi wrote: Serral used to never tilt, Reynor once agian in his head Tilt is such an overused term in esports that its ridiculous. | ||
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dysenterymd
1237 Posts
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Elentos
55552 Posts
On August 13 2020 22:22 stilt wrote: He is the only player I dislike for his playstyle but cmon, you forgot sOs, what a dirty man, I still can't forgive him for his 2 blizzcon titles and katowice 2014 sOs hasn't had flair in 5 years either. Goes well with not winning anything for just as long. Also I disliked it at the time since I was never a fan of him but better sOs wins Blizzcon 2015 in game 7 than the alternative. | ||
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darklycid
3511 Posts
On August 13 2020 22:16 dbRic1203 wrote: I mean everyone can have early exits sometimes (like Rogue Season 1 2020 or Maru Season 2 2019) but I think its absolutly reasonable to count them as absolute title contenders, if they play GSL. Just like 4-6 other players as well. I think I heard somewhere, that Reynor want s to go to Kr again, once the whole Corona situation is resolved. Will be amazing to see him in Group Nominations bantering with the other Koreans :D They're definitely up in the title contenders area, it just gets overblown sometimes i think. | ||
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dbRic1203
Germany2655 Posts
On August 13 2020 22:30 darklycid wrote: They're definitely up in the title contenders area, it just gets overblown sometimes i think. Well saying, the d win 100% if showing up is just delusional. No one is guaranteed to win 100%. Are they the 2 best players in the world at the moment? Yes I absolutly think so. | ||
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dysenterymd
1237 Posts
Just kidding this is probably a 4-1 | ||
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tigon_ridge
482 Posts
On August 13 2020 22:37 dysenterymd wrote: If peak instincts 2018 Serral awakens, there is hope yet. Just kidding this is probably a 4-1 I think Reynor is the one playing like Serral in 2018. Serral was always ahead on workers count. Reynor is suddenly the one with higher drone count now every game vs Serral. Serral is going for overly aggressive strategies, and it's not working too well against Reynor, because Reynor's army control and defensive ability frankly looks better than Serral's. | ||
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
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dysenterymd
1237 Posts
On August 13 2020 22:40 tigon_ridge wrote: I think Reynor is the one playing like Serral in 2018. Serral was always ahead on workers count. Reynor is suddenly the one with higher drone count now every game vs Serral. Serral is going for overly aggressive strategies, and it's not working too well against Reynor, because Reynor's army control and defensive ability frankly looks better than Serral's. Serral won with a defense in game 4 and actually pulled off a great defense in game 1 before ruining the follow up. I feel Serral has much better odds taking it to a longer game instead of these all ins. | ||
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digmouse
China6329 Posts
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dbRic1203
Germany2655 Posts
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25506 Posts
On August 13 2020 21:46 tigon_ridge wrote: Remember when people believed that Reynor's high rating was merely because he farmed foreigners, and rating is just a number that means nothing since he couldn't beat Koreans? He's proving that Aligulac doesn't care about your pro-GSL bias. Reynor has been collecting code S heads lately, just as his rating predicts. I’m sure some people believed/said that for sure. It’s kind of hard to devise a system that accounts for the difference between premier offline tournies, weekly online cups and all sorts of other factors. Hell now we’ve got online plus cross server being more common in the Covid world. I think most rate Reynor as a contender in most tournaments on his day now, exciting if he does indeed decamp to Code S when Covid dies down. Him having a higher peak rating than Serral is a bit silly though. | ||
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
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stilt
France2749 Posts
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Jacenoob
299 Posts
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ThePrince
Peru331 Posts
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Jacenoob
299 Posts
On August 13 2020 22:48 ThePrince wrote: WHY NO ADVANTAGE FOR WINNING WINNERS BRACKET Yeah there should be. Though the result would have been the same if Serral started up 1-0 | ||
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tigon_ridge
482 Posts
On August 13 2020 22:48 stilt wrote: Reynor seems clearly stronger than the year before. Reynor definitely, definitely is stronger than the year before. Don't know what triggered this growth, but it seems being done with school has a lot to do with it. This is very good news for the foreign scene, and SC2 in general. | ||
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onPHYRE
Bulgaria923 Posts
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tigon_ridge
482 Posts
On August 13 2020 22:52 onPHYRE wrote: Let's not forget Serral won 3-1 versus Reynor just yesterday... People forget so quickly and only focus on the most recent result. Both are in top form and Reynor was better today. Look at his recent games in his match history. It's not just this 4-1 that's super impressive. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25506 Posts
On August 13 2020 22:52 onPHYRE wrote: Let's not forget Serral won 3-1 versus Reynor just yesterday... People forget so quickly and only focus on the most recent result. Both are in top form and Reynor was better today. I think we’re going to see this haphazard pattern for potentially years. They’re about the same level in the matchup and anything new they pull out gets figured out by the next series, notably Reynor having success with a ling/lurker style. Plus they do practice together too, although I imagine they stop doing so when tournaments are incoming! They’re so even their matches will be decided on small things I’d imagine, who’s had a better night’s sleep or a few bits of luck or a singular mistake. Reynor has improved recently, but primarily in vT where he’s jumped up a level. Which was definitely a handy thing for him to have, especially if he wants to play in the land of the fabled Korean Terran again. VZ he was so good anyway he didn’t have much room to jump up. vP I’m not as convinced, I don’t think Reynor quite has Serral’s ability to read situations and react perfectly consistently. He’s mechanically a monster but I think he has a tendency to overdrone that does get punished by players who are on point. The flip side is when it doesn’t I think it makes him look stronger than he should really be being allowed to be. Still probably one of the best ZvPers in the world, so I’m being a bit harsh but Serral is more rock solid there IMO. | ||
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Lazzarus
Faroe Islands114 Posts
I feel Reynor benefits from the covid state of things, or rather Serral doesn't choke or even get nervous with a live audience, whereas other players do. It's not that Serral plays better at live events, just that other players play worse | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
He is the foreign hope to win a Code S sooner or later since, unlike Serral, he would like to go to Korea. Reynor is stronger now than he was in 2019, even if he serverely underperformed since May/June; also, Reynor already showed a form very similar to his current one at HSC XX and, while he is probably better, Serral seems slightly weaker, especially in ZvZ which has been his bane this year. The winner bracket advantage would have meant nothing today. | ||
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dbRic1203
Germany2655 Posts
On August 13 2020 23:07 Wombat_NI wrote: Reynor has improved recently, but primarily in vT where he’s jumped up a level. Which was definitely a handy thing for him to have, especially if he wants to play in the land of the fabled Korean Terran again. VZ he was so good anyway he didn’t have much room to jump up. Playing Clem 500 times this Spring might have helped with that. He s mechanically as good as the top Kr Terrans allready, his game sense/ mentality is just not there jet. Also his insane Preperation for Maru (vs 3 or 4 player Archon) probably helped a lot as well | ||
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slant
Romania95 Posts
On August 13 2020 23:14 Lazzarus wrote: Sad to see Serral lose. Reynor destroyed Serral today, but Serral destroyed Reynor yesterday. Better to win the grand finals I guess. Still - happy that Reynor gets more wins. I feel Reynor benefits from the covid state of things, or rather Serral doesn't choke or even get nervous with a live audience, whereas other players do. It's not that Serral plays better at live events, just that other players play worse Wouldn't say that Reynor's prone to choking on a live stage either- his premier tournament wins in 2019 are a testament to that. Great games by Reynor, super glad he won and excited for the future. Thank you SCBoy for organizing the event! Nice to see Chinese starcraft get more involved in the foreign scene, especially during covid. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25506 Posts
On August 13 2020 23:45 dbRic1203 wrote: Playing Clem 500 times this Spring might have helped with that. He s mechanically as good as the top Kr Terrans allready, his game sense/ mentality is just not there jet. Also his insane Preperation for Maru (vs 3 or 4 player Archon) probably helped a lot as well Definitely helps, Clem is a beast. Having Euro Terrans who can play like Korean Terrans with bio must definitely help and tbh we’ve never really had that in a decade of SC2 Outside of the fabled practice games with Soul of course. As good as HeroMarine is, or TIME has shown in flashes, if you want to practice against someone who can micro pushes or multitask to an Inno/Maru level (or at least close to it) Clem is a huge asset to European players. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18013 Posts
On August 13 2020 23:40 Xain0n wrote: I'm glad that Reynor eventually won a tournament where he faced top koreans, it was about time. He is the foreign hope to win a Code S sooner or later since, unlike Serral, he would like to go to Korea. Reynor is stronger now than he was in 2019, even if he serverely underperformed since May/June; also, Reynor already showed a form very similar to his current one at HSC XX and, while he is probably better, Serral seems slightly weaker, especially in ZvZ which has been his bane this year. The winner bracket advantage would have meant nothing today. It's quite weird to see Serral drop so spectacularly in ZvZ (and look quite vulnerable in ZvT as well, with critical losses to TY, Clem and Heromarine. He's still a top Zerg, but right now I would give Reynor a slight edge in power. And not sure how either of them measure up to Rogue. It's especially weird that this is the second time this year that Serral beats Reynor quite handily in the winnner bracket final, but then gets utterly crushed the next day. Almost like Reynor wants that warming up match in the lower bracket final | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25506 Posts
On August 14 2020 00:31 Acrofales wrote: It's quite weird to see Serral drop so spectacularly in ZvZ (and look quite vulnerable in ZvT as well, with critical losses to TY, Clem and Heromarine. He's still a top Zerg, but right now I would give Reynor a slight edge in power. And not sure how either of them measure up to Rogue. It's especially weird that this is the second time this year that Serral beats Reynor quite handily in the winnner bracket final, but then gets utterly crushed the next day. Almost like Reynor wants that warming up match in the lower bracket final Where’s Serral dropping those games? I try to keep up on top tier Starcraft I just don’t recall him dropping the ball too much lately! I suppose I should watch even more SC | ||
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stilt
France2749 Posts
On August 14 2020 00:34 Wombat_NI wrote: Where’s Serral dropping those games? I try to keep up on top tier Starcraft I just don’t recall him dropping the ball too much lately! I suppose I should watch even more SC He lost to Reynor/Elazer in TSL, Lambo in DH, Rogue in Douyu and now there are these late defeats against the spaghietti boi. | ||
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Gina
241 Posts
I so wanted to see Zest play Serral again... | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18013 Posts
On August 14 2020 00:41 stilt wrote: He lost to Reynor/Elazer in TSL, Lambo in DH, Rogue in Douyu and now there are these late defeats against the spaghietti boi. Yeah, I wasn't really counting the losses to Rogue, though, as Rogue was already out and Serral was already confirmed top 2, so neither had much to play for, and probably half-assed it. Was mainly thinking of the losses to Elazer and Lambo (in addition to Reynor). | ||
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JJH777
United States4408 Posts
On August 14 2020 03:42 Acrofales wrote: Yeah, I wasn't really counting the losses to Rogue, though, as Rogue was already out and Serral was already confirmed top 2, so neither had much to play for, and probably half-assed it. Was mainly thinking of the losses to Elazer and Lambo (in addition to Reynor). Serral wasn't guaranteed top 2 when he lost to Rogue. If he lost to Parting as well he finishes 3rd. | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
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