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On May 23 2020 17:08 temporary1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2020 16:34 Luolis wrote:On May 23 2020 16:27 temporary1 wrote:On May 23 2020 16:11 Luolis wrote:On May 23 2020 15:56 temporary1 wrote:On May 23 2020 15:52 Luolis wrote:On May 23 2020 15:43 temporary1 wrote:On May 23 2020 15:34 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On May 23 2020 15:29 Fango wrote:On May 23 2020 15:27 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
The terran is also executing better. The drop was invisible until last second and came from a weird angle. And despite that Trap was barely too late Anyone can execute a mine drop pretty much as well as the pros though. Lower level players are more likely to hit it later/fall behind in macro/not react to things elsewhere on the map, sure. But you could teach someone who doesn't play sc2 to click a medivac behind someones mineral line and boost it in. ...no? If someone can execute a mine drop as well as the pros then they wouldn't be a lower level player. Dropping mines isn't rocket science, but it's hardly as simple as that. There's burrowing/unburrowing, focus firing, spreading the mines, distracting the opponent and so on. Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of mine drop. Even one successful mine drop basically ends pvt if it happens in first 10 minutes (while not having too much risk to dropping terran), and this game just showed it does happen at the highest level too. It doesn't even matter if it comes 30 seconds or a minute later that it came in that game 5, results is pretty much the same. You're not serious right? Oh I am. You know you shouldn't post messages that have no content, right? I was gonna post "hahaha" but i thought that that would've been too much no content. You could make that point for so many units. Let me give you some examples "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of disruptors. Even one succesful disruptor hit basically ends pvt if it happens in the first 10 minutes (while not having too much risk to protoss)." "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of banelings. Even one succesful baneling hit basically ends zvt if it ever happens (and lower level terrans arent known for their micro skills)." "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of DTs. Even one unnoticed dark templar basically ends pvt if there is no scan (while not having too much risk to protoss)." Is this good enough of a point? You are comparing apples to oranges. Protoss doing disruptor hit that makes the same impact would require a huge amount more resources and micro. Protoss would have to rush both disruptors and prism, robotics bay is 150/150, 2 disruptors are 300/300 to make it total of 450/450 deviation from "normal" tech path before 10 minutes compared to terran deviation of about 200/50 (if no deviation at all, defensive mines can be considered to be at normal tech path), would require way better micro to hit as efficiently as mines with their auto-targeting, and would expose protoss to counter attack that would likely end the game if those disruptors would be lost, to "oh well, lets go again then" scenario if terran loses drop. Baneling bust and dt's are also not on standard builds. Later game all harrasment methods get more even, and their impact diminishes. My point still stands. Especially on a lower level one disruptor can effectively end the game in one shot (same thing that youre talking about with mines but multiplied). I wasn't talking about a baneling bust, just banelings in general... My point with them was that if you get one lucky hit the game can just be over there and then. As for DT's, no it's not a standard build but it's still a straight up gg moment if unscouted and hits at a bad timing. What i was going for here is that on lower levels you can make the same point for literally every unit. If you truly believe that "worse players" are on a higher level than they should be because of "how efficient mine drops are", you are delusional. Except that it doesn't stand. I don't know how much you have been playing at lower level. But said rushing to disruptors to try to do one hit or miss attack that can lose you the game is not s way to go at lower level. Also disruptors are way too complicated to control for lower level players that they probably aren't on lower level players tech paths. Banelings in early game are somewhat comparable but I believe they still require more dedicated approach and more opportunity cost than mines that require no additional planning. DTs hardly compare. First of all they are not at PvT standard build. Secondly they don't win a game within seconds. All races should have detection in their standard build anyways so those shouldn't even be a problem. Back in the days when detection wasn't as easy to have as it is today, even then even DT rush wasn't autowin as missed minedrop effectively is today. As I implied, late game harrassment is less impactful and therefore more balanced between races. But you won't get to late game if you lose the game before 10 mins is full because you had late reaction to one minedrop.
Oh my fucking god, i was not talking about earlygame only. Literally any unit on the lower leagues can be called imba because lower league players are terrible. There are as much players that are in a higher league than they should because of mine drops, as there are because of zealots, stalkers, immortals, colossi, disruptors, high templars, dark templars, archons, sentries, zerglings, banelings, roaches, ravagers, lurkers, broodlords, mutalisks, ultralisks, hydralisks, infestors, marines, marauders, reapers, siege tanks, thors, hellions, banshees, ravens, battlecruisers and any other unit in the game.
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well the timing window of a widow mine drop is pretty small so it really comes down a lot to luck and the luck favoured INnoVation. I have to admit I don't like the widow mine drop build either. Feels too low risk for too high reward.
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On May 23 2020 17:14 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2020 17:08 temporary1 wrote:On May 23 2020 16:34 Luolis wrote:On May 23 2020 16:27 temporary1 wrote:On May 23 2020 16:11 Luolis wrote:On May 23 2020 15:56 temporary1 wrote:On May 23 2020 15:52 Luolis wrote:On May 23 2020 15:43 temporary1 wrote:On May 23 2020 15:34 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On May 23 2020 15:29 Fango wrote:
[quote]
Anyone can execute a mine drop pretty much as well as the pros though. Lower level players are more likely to hit it later/fall behind in macro/not react to things elsewhere on the map, sure. But you could teach someone who doesn't play sc2 to click a medivac behind someones mineral line and boost it in. ...no? If someone can execute a mine drop as well as the pros then they wouldn't be a lower level player. Dropping mines isn't rocket science, but it's hardly as simple as that. There's burrowing/unburrowing, focus firing, spreading the mines, distracting the opponent and so on. Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of mine drop. Even one successful mine drop basically ends pvt if it happens in first 10 minutes (while not having too much risk to dropping terran), and this game just showed it does happen at the highest level too. It doesn't even matter if it comes 30 seconds or a minute later that it came in that game 5, results is pretty much the same. You're not serious right? Oh I am. You know you shouldn't post messages that have no content, right? I was gonna post "hahaha" but i thought that that would've been too much no content. You could make that point for so many units. Let me give you some examples "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of disruptors. Even one succesful disruptor hit basically ends pvt if it happens in the first 10 minutes (while not having too much risk to protoss)." "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of banelings. Even one succesful baneling hit basically ends zvt if it ever happens (and lower level terrans arent known for their micro skills)." "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of DTs. Even one unnoticed dark templar basically ends pvt if there is no scan (while not having too much risk to protoss)." Is this good enough of a point? You are comparing apples to oranges. Protoss doing disruptor hit that makes the same impact would require a huge amount more resources and micro. Protoss would have to rush both disruptors and prism, robotics bay is 150/150, 2 disruptors are 300/300 to make it total of 450/450 deviation from "normal" tech path before 10 minutes compared to terran deviation of about 200/50 (if no deviation at all, defensive mines can be considered to be at normal tech path), would require way better micro to hit as efficiently as mines with their auto-targeting, and would expose protoss to counter attack that would likely end the game if those disruptors would be lost, to "oh well, lets go again then" scenario if terran loses drop. Baneling bust and dt's are also not on standard builds. Later game all harrasment methods get more even, and their impact diminishes. My point still stands. Especially on a lower level one disruptor can effectively end the game in one shot (same thing that youre talking about with mines but multiplied). I wasn't talking about a baneling bust, just banelings in general... My point with them was that if you get one lucky hit the game can just be over there and then. As for DT's, no it's not a standard build but it's still a straight up gg moment if unscouted and hits at a bad timing. What i was going for here is that on lower levels you can make the same point for literally every unit. If you truly believe that "worse players" are on a higher level than they should be because of "how efficient mine drops are", you are delusional. Except that it doesn't stand. I don't know how much you have been playing at lower level. But said rushing to disruptors to try to do one hit or miss attack that can lose you the game is not s way to go at lower level. Also disruptors are way too complicated to control for lower level players that they probably aren't on lower level players tech paths. Banelings in early game are somewhat comparable but I believe they still require more dedicated approach and more opportunity cost than mines that require no additional planning. DTs hardly compare. First of all they are not at PvT standard build. Secondly they don't win a game within seconds. All races should have detection in their standard build anyways so those shouldn't even be a problem. Back in the days when detection wasn't as easy to have as it is today, even then even DT rush wasn't autowin as missed minedrop effectively is today. As I implied, late game harrassment is less impactful and therefore more balanced between races. But you won't get to late game if you lose the game before 10 mins is full because you had late reaction to one minedrop. Oh my fucking god, i was not talking about earlygame only. Literally any unit on the lower leagues can be called imba because lower league players are terrible. There are as much players that are in a higher league than they should because of mine drops, as there are because of zealots, stalkers, immortals, colossi, disruptors, high templars, dark templars, archons, sentries, zerglings, banelings, roaches, ravagers, lurkers, broodlords, mutalisks, ultralisks, hydralisks, infestors, marines, marauders, reapers, siege tanks, thors, hellions, banshees, ravens, battlecruisers and any other unit in the game.
Well, since it was you who responded to my post, I think it is me who dictates what I am talking about. Widow mine is problematic in early game, as I have repeatedly said, harrassment impact diminishes as game progresses, but one or two WM hits can lose a game at top level as it did in game 5 today. Those hits are easy to execute, do not require (practically) any additional tech and contain very little risk compared to reward
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On May 23 2020 18:19 temporary1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2020 17:14 Luolis wrote:On May 23 2020 17:08 temporary1 wrote:On May 23 2020 16:34 Luolis wrote:On May 23 2020 16:27 temporary1 wrote:On May 23 2020 16:11 Luolis wrote:On May 23 2020 15:56 temporary1 wrote:On May 23 2020 15:52 Luolis wrote:On May 23 2020 15:43 temporary1 wrote:On May 23 2020 15:34 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
[quote]
...no? If someone can execute a mine drop as well as the pros then they wouldn't be a lower level player.
Dropping mines isn't rocket science, but it's hardly as simple as that. There's burrowing/unburrowing, focus firing, spreading the mines, distracting the opponent and so on. Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of mine drop. Even one successful mine drop basically ends pvt if it happens in first 10 minutes (while not having too much risk to dropping terran), and this game just showed it does happen at the highest level too. It doesn't even matter if it comes 30 seconds or a minute later that it came in that game 5, results is pretty much the same. You're not serious right? Oh I am. You know you shouldn't post messages that have no content, right? I was gonna post "hahaha" but i thought that that would've been too much no content. You could make that point for so many units. Let me give you some examples "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of disruptors. Even one succesful disruptor hit basically ends pvt if it happens in the first 10 minutes (while not having too much risk to protoss)." "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of banelings. Even one succesful baneling hit basically ends zvt if it ever happens (and lower level terrans arent known for their micro skills)." "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of DTs. Even one unnoticed dark templar basically ends pvt if there is no scan (while not having too much risk to protoss)." Is this good enough of a point? You are comparing apples to oranges. Protoss doing disruptor hit that makes the same impact would require a huge amount more resources and micro. Protoss would have to rush both disruptors and prism, robotics bay is 150/150, 2 disruptors are 300/300 to make it total of 450/450 deviation from "normal" tech path before 10 minutes compared to terran deviation of about 200/50 (if no deviation at all, defensive mines can be considered to be at normal tech path), would require way better micro to hit as efficiently as mines with their auto-targeting, and would expose protoss to counter attack that would likely end the game if those disruptors would be lost, to "oh well, lets go again then" scenario if terran loses drop. Baneling bust and dt's are also not on standard builds. Later game all harrasment methods get more even, and their impact diminishes. My point still stands. Especially on a lower level one disruptor can effectively end the game in one shot (same thing that youre talking about with mines but multiplied). I wasn't talking about a baneling bust, just banelings in general... My point with them was that if you get one lucky hit the game can just be over there and then. As for DT's, no it's not a standard build but it's still a straight up gg moment if unscouted and hits at a bad timing. What i was going for here is that on lower levels you can make the same point for literally every unit. If you truly believe that "worse players" are on a higher level than they should be because of "how efficient mine drops are", you are delusional. Except that it doesn't stand. I don't know how much you have been playing at lower level. But said rushing to disruptors to try to do one hit or miss attack that can lose you the game is not s way to go at lower level. Also disruptors are way too complicated to control for lower level players that they probably aren't on lower level players tech paths. Banelings in early game are somewhat comparable but I believe they still require more dedicated approach and more opportunity cost than mines that require no additional planning. DTs hardly compare. First of all they are not at PvT standard build. Secondly they don't win a game within seconds. All races should have detection in their standard build anyways so those shouldn't even be a problem. Back in the days when detection wasn't as easy to have as it is today, even then even DT rush wasn't autowin as missed minedrop effectively is today. As I implied, late game harrassment is less impactful and therefore more balanced between races. But you won't get to late game if you lose the game before 10 mins is full because you had late reaction to one minedrop. Oh my fucking god, i was not talking about earlygame only. Literally any unit on the lower leagues can be called imba because lower league players are terrible. There are as much players that are in a higher league than they should because of mine drops, as there are because of zealots, stalkers, immortals, colossi, disruptors, high templars, dark templars, archons, sentries, zerglings, banelings, roaches, ravagers, lurkers, broodlords, mutalisks, ultralisks, hydralisks, infestors, marines, marauders, reapers, siege tanks, thors, hellions, banshees, ravens, battlecruisers and any other unit in the game. Well, since it was you who responded to my post, I think it is me who dictates what I am talking about.
Your first sentence was "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of mine drop". I was commenting on that. Reading comprehension is allowed to be used.
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On May 23 2020 18:27 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2020 18:19 temporary1 wrote:On May 23 2020 17:14 Luolis wrote:On May 23 2020 17:08 temporary1 wrote:On May 23 2020 16:34 Luolis wrote:On May 23 2020 16:27 temporary1 wrote:On May 23 2020 16:11 Luolis wrote:On May 23 2020 15:56 temporary1 wrote:On May 23 2020 15:52 Luolis wrote:On May 23 2020 15:43 temporary1 wrote:
[quote]
Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of mine drop. Even one successful mine drop basically ends pvt if it happens in first 10 minutes (while not having too much risk to dropping terran), and this game just showed it does happen at the highest level too. It doesn't even matter if it comes 30 seconds or a minute later that it came in that game 5, results is pretty much the same. You're not serious right? Oh I am. You know you shouldn't post messages that have no content, right? I was gonna post "hahaha" but i thought that that would've been too much no content. You could make that point for so many units. Let me give you some examples "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of disruptors. Even one succesful disruptor hit basically ends pvt if it happens in the first 10 minutes (while not having too much risk to protoss)." "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of banelings. Even one succesful baneling hit basically ends zvt if it ever happens (and lower level terrans arent known for their micro skills)." "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of DTs. Even one unnoticed dark templar basically ends pvt if there is no scan (while not having too much risk to protoss)." Is this good enough of a point? You are comparing apples to oranges. Protoss doing disruptor hit that makes the same impact would require a huge amount more resources and micro. Protoss would have to rush both disruptors and prism, robotics bay is 150/150, 2 disruptors are 300/300 to make it total of 450/450 deviation from "normal" tech path before 10 minutes compared to terran deviation of about 200/50 (if no deviation at all, defensive mines can be considered to be at normal tech path), would require way better micro to hit as efficiently as mines with their auto-targeting, and would expose protoss to counter attack that would likely end the game if those disruptors would be lost, to "oh well, lets go again then" scenario if terran loses drop. Baneling bust and dt's are also not on standard builds. Later game all harrasment methods get more even, and their impact diminishes. My point still stands. Especially on a lower level one disruptor can effectively end the game in one shot (same thing that youre talking about with mines but multiplied). I wasn't talking about a baneling bust, just banelings in general... My point with them was that if you get one lucky hit the game can just be over there and then. As for DT's, no it's not a standard build but it's still a straight up gg moment if unscouted and hits at a bad timing. What i was going for here is that on lower levels you can make the same point for literally every unit. If you truly believe that "worse players" are on a higher level than they should be because of "how efficient mine drops are", you are delusional. Except that it doesn't stand. I don't know how much you have been playing at lower level. But said rushing to disruptors to try to do one hit or miss attack that can lose you the game is not s way to go at lower level. Also disruptors are way too complicated to control for lower level players that they probably aren't on lower level players tech paths. Banelings in early game are somewhat comparable but I believe they still require more dedicated approach and more opportunity cost than mines that require no additional planning. DTs hardly compare. First of all they are not at PvT standard build. Secondly they don't win a game within seconds. All races should have detection in their standard build anyways so those shouldn't even be a problem. Back in the days when detection wasn't as easy to have as it is today, even then even DT rush wasn't autowin as missed minedrop effectively is today. As I implied, late game harrassment is less impactful and therefore more balanced between races. But you won't get to late game if you lose the game before 10 mins is full because you had late reaction to one minedrop. Oh my fucking god, i was not talking about earlygame only. Literally any unit on the lower leagues can be called imba because lower league players are terrible. There are as much players that are in a higher league than they should because of mine drops, as there are because of zealots, stalkers, immortals, colossi, disruptors, high templars, dark templars, archons, sentries, zerglings, banelings, roaches, ravagers, lurkers, broodlords, mutalisks, ultralisks, hydralisks, infestors, marines, marauders, reapers, siege tanks, thors, hellions, banshees, ravens, battlecruisers and any other unit in the game. Well, since it was you who responded to my post, I think it is me who dictates what I am talking about. Your first sentence was "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of mine drop". I was commenting on that. Reading comprehension is allowed to be used.
So you are basically making a null argument that balance doesn't matter at lower levels because players are bad?
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On May 23 2020 19:00 temporary1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2020 18:27 Luolis wrote:On May 23 2020 18:19 temporary1 wrote:On May 23 2020 17:14 Luolis wrote:On May 23 2020 17:08 temporary1 wrote:On May 23 2020 16:34 Luolis wrote:On May 23 2020 16:27 temporary1 wrote:On May 23 2020 16:11 Luolis wrote:On May 23 2020 15:56 temporary1 wrote:On May 23 2020 15:52 Luolis wrote:
[quote]
You're not serious right? Oh I am. You know you shouldn't post messages that have no content, right? I was gonna post "hahaha" but i thought that that would've been too much no content. You could make that point for so many units. Let me give you some examples "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of disruptors. Even one succesful disruptor hit basically ends pvt if it happens in the first 10 minutes (while not having too much risk to protoss)." "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of banelings. Even one succesful baneling hit basically ends zvt if it ever happens (and lower level terrans arent known for their micro skills)." "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of DTs. Even one unnoticed dark templar basically ends pvt if there is no scan (while not having too much risk to protoss)." Is this good enough of a point? You are comparing apples to oranges. Protoss doing disruptor hit that makes the same impact would require a huge amount more resources and micro. Protoss would have to rush both disruptors and prism, robotics bay is 150/150, 2 disruptors are 300/300 to make it total of 450/450 deviation from "normal" tech path before 10 minutes compared to terran deviation of about 200/50 (if no deviation at all, defensive mines can be considered to be at normal tech path), would require way better micro to hit as efficiently as mines with their auto-targeting, and would expose protoss to counter attack that would likely end the game if those disruptors would be lost, to "oh well, lets go again then" scenario if terran loses drop. Baneling bust and dt's are also not on standard builds. Later game all harrasment methods get more even, and their impact diminishes. My point still stands. Especially on a lower level one disruptor can effectively end the game in one shot (same thing that youre talking about with mines but multiplied). I wasn't talking about a baneling bust, just banelings in general... My point with them was that if you get one lucky hit the game can just be over there and then. As for DT's, no it's not a standard build but it's still a straight up gg moment if unscouted and hits at a bad timing. What i was going for here is that on lower levels you can make the same point for literally every unit. If you truly believe that "worse players" are on a higher level than they should be because of "how efficient mine drops are", you are delusional. Except that it doesn't stand. I don't know how much you have been playing at lower level. But said rushing to disruptors to try to do one hit or miss attack that can lose you the game is not s way to go at lower level. Also disruptors are way too complicated to control for lower level players that they probably aren't on lower level players tech paths. Banelings in early game are somewhat comparable but I believe they still require more dedicated approach and more opportunity cost than mines that require no additional planning. DTs hardly compare. First of all they are not at PvT standard build. Secondly they don't win a game within seconds. All races should have detection in their standard build anyways so those shouldn't even be a problem. Back in the days when detection wasn't as easy to have as it is today, even then even DT rush wasn't autowin as missed minedrop effectively is today. As I implied, late game harrassment is less impactful and therefore more balanced between races. But you won't get to late game if you lose the game before 10 mins is full because you had late reaction to one minedrop. Oh my fucking god, i was not talking about earlygame only. Literally any unit on the lower leagues can be called imba because lower league players are terrible. There are as much players that are in a higher league than they should because of mine drops, as there are because of zealots, stalkers, immortals, colossi, disruptors, high templars, dark templars, archons, sentries, zerglings, banelings, roaches, ravagers, lurkers, broodlords, mutalisks, ultralisks, hydralisks, infestors, marines, marauders, reapers, siege tanks, thors, hellions, banshees, ravens, battlecruisers and any other unit in the game. Well, since it was you who responded to my post, I think it is me who dictates what I am talking about. Your first sentence was "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of mine drop". I was commenting on that. Reading comprehension is allowed to be used. So you are basically making a null argument that balance doesn't matter at lower levels because players are bad?
Please tell me how that argument is null.
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On May 23 2020 19:08 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2020 19:00 temporary1 wrote:On May 23 2020 18:27 Luolis wrote:On May 23 2020 18:19 temporary1 wrote:On May 23 2020 17:14 Luolis wrote:On May 23 2020 17:08 temporary1 wrote:On May 23 2020 16:34 Luolis wrote:On May 23 2020 16:27 temporary1 wrote:On May 23 2020 16:11 Luolis wrote:On May 23 2020 15:56 temporary1 wrote:
[quote]
Oh I am. You know you shouldn't post messages that have no content, right? I was gonna post "hahaha" but i thought that that would've been too much no content. You could make that point for so many units. Let me give you some examples "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of disruptors. Even one succesful disruptor hit basically ends pvt if it happens in the first 10 minutes (while not having too much risk to protoss)." "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of banelings. Even one succesful baneling hit basically ends zvt if it ever happens (and lower level terrans arent known for their micro skills)." "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of DTs. Even one unnoticed dark templar basically ends pvt if there is no scan (while not having too much risk to protoss)." Is this good enough of a point? You are comparing apples to oranges. Protoss doing disruptor hit that makes the same impact would require a huge amount more resources and micro. Protoss would have to rush both disruptors and prism, robotics bay is 150/150, 2 disruptors are 300/300 to make it total of 450/450 deviation from "normal" tech path before 10 minutes compared to terran deviation of about 200/50 (if no deviation at all, defensive mines can be considered to be at normal tech path), would require way better micro to hit as efficiently as mines with their auto-targeting, and would expose protoss to counter attack that would likely end the game if those disruptors would be lost, to "oh well, lets go again then" scenario if terran loses drop. Baneling bust and dt's are also not on standard builds. Later game all harrasment methods get more even, and their impact diminishes. My point still stands. Especially on a lower level one disruptor can effectively end the game in one shot (same thing that youre talking about with mines but multiplied). I wasn't talking about a baneling bust, just banelings in general... My point with them was that if you get one lucky hit the game can just be over there and then. As for DT's, no it's not a standard build but it's still a straight up gg moment if unscouted and hits at a bad timing. What i was going for here is that on lower levels you can make the same point for literally every unit. If you truly believe that "worse players" are on a higher level than they should be because of "how efficient mine drops are", you are delusional. Except that it doesn't stand. I don't know how much you have been playing at lower level. But said rushing to disruptors to try to do one hit or miss attack that can lose you the game is not s way to go at lower level. Also disruptors are way too complicated to control for lower level players that they probably aren't on lower level players tech paths. Banelings in early game are somewhat comparable but I believe they still require more dedicated approach and more opportunity cost than mines that require no additional planning. DTs hardly compare. First of all they are not at PvT standard build. Secondly they don't win a game within seconds. All races should have detection in their standard build anyways so those shouldn't even be a problem. Back in the days when detection wasn't as easy to have as it is today, even then even DT rush wasn't autowin as missed minedrop effectively is today. As I implied, late game harrassment is less impactful and therefore more balanced between races. But you won't get to late game if you lose the game before 10 mins is full because you had late reaction to one minedrop. Oh my fucking god, i was not talking about earlygame only. Literally any unit on the lower leagues can be called imba because lower league players are terrible. There are as much players that are in a higher league than they should because of mine drops, as there are because of zealots, stalkers, immortals, colossi, disruptors, high templars, dark templars, archons, sentries, zerglings, banelings, roaches, ravagers, lurkers, broodlords, mutalisks, ultralisks, hydralisks, infestors, marines, marauders, reapers, siege tanks, thors, hellions, banshees, ravens, battlecruisers and any other unit in the game. Well, since it was you who responded to my post, I think it is me who dictates what I am talking about. Your first sentence was "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of mine drop". I was commenting on that. Reading comprehension is allowed to be used. So you are basically making a null argument that balance doesn't matter at lower levels because players are bad? Please tell me how that argument is null.
Because it voids all arguments. Why would you take part into balance discussion in the first place if you think it doesn't matter and "players are bad" supersedes all other arguments? What if we have a colossus that shoots air and ground, flies and oneshots every other unit? A marine that has unlimited range?
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On May 23 2020 17:15 Anc13nt wrote:
well the timing window of a widow mine drop is pretty small so it really comes down a lot to luck and the luck favoured INnoVation. I have to admit I don't like the widow mine drop build either. Feels too low risk for too high reward.
Was it unlucky that the stalkers were out of position, his buildings were not placed to spot the drop and failed to pull his probes?
It was a major fuckup against a very common strategy that can be countered.
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On May 23 2020 15:29 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2020 15:27 Nebuchad wrote:On May 23 2020 15:25 Fango wrote:On May 23 2020 15:19 Elentos wrote:On May 23 2020 15:18 Fango wrote:On May 23 2020 15:17 Waxangel wrote:Trap is definitely the new Stats.... in terms of losing probes to mines  Or the new sOs, or new Dear. Seriously it's insane how much damage even the best protoss take to widow mines They just take almost no damage most games but of all the games we see the ones where they get rekt. Even at my level I have to do a lot of mine drops to get one that kills 12 workers. There's probably a memory bias sure, but the fact it happens so often to begin with is strange. Maybe players at lower ranks are just more likely to be watching their main base 90% of the time, whereas pros tend to go back to hit macro only. The terran is also executing better. The drop was invisible until last second and came from a weird angle. And despite that Trap was barely too late Anyone can execute a mine drop pretty much as well as the pros though. Lower level players are more likely to hit it later/fall behind in macro/not react to things elsewhere on the map, sure. But you could teach someone who doesn't play sc2 to click a medivac behind someones mineral line and boost it in.
Sure, and anyone can blink micro like Parting too...
You noobs really think you are pro level.... Its funny...
User was warned for this post
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On May 23 2020 15:40 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2020 15:34 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On May 23 2020 15:29 Fango wrote:On May 23 2020 15:27 Nebuchad wrote:On May 23 2020 15:25 Fango wrote:On May 23 2020 15:19 Elentos wrote:On May 23 2020 15:18 Fango wrote:On May 23 2020 15:17 Waxangel wrote:Trap is definitely the new Stats.... in terms of losing probes to mines Or the new sOs, or new Dear. Seriously it's insane how much damage even the best protoss take to widow mines They just take almost no damage most games but of all the games we see the ones where they get rekt. Even at my level I have to do a lot of mine drops to get one that kills 12 workers. There's probably a memory bias sure, but the fact it happens so often to begin with is strange. Maybe players at lower ranks are just more likely to be watching their main base 90% of the time, whereas pros tend to go back to hit macro only. The terran is also executing better. The drop was invisible until last second and came from a weird angle. And despite that Trap was barely too late Anyone can execute a mine drop pretty much as well as the pros though. Lower level players are more likely to hit it later/fall behind in macro/not react to things elsewhere on the map, sure. But you could teach someone who doesn't play sc2 to click a medivac behind someones mineral line and boost it in. ...no? If someone can execute a mine drop as well as the pros then they wouldn't be a lower level player. Dropping mines isn't rocket science, but it's hardly as simple as that. There's burrowing/unburrowing, focus firing, spreading the mines, distracting the opponent and so on. Yeah except the mine drops I'm talking about having nothing to do with burrow/unburrow micro, focus fire spam, distractions etc. I'm literally just refering to the standard mine drop that occur when (pretty much) nothing is happening on the map. It's shocking to see even the best protoss lose their mineral lines to it. (Irrelevant, but even those micro tricks are things can be done easily by low level players, there's nothing mechanically demanding about it, the real difference between noob and pro is that the pro will be doing other actions at the same time).
Starcraft players are delusional half the time.... complaining about shit that doesnt even affect thier games.
I MIGHT be wrong, but I think Inno INVENTED the drilling claws build, in a GSL game vs Zest.. I gotta track down the vid....
If anyone's going to pull it off, its Inno....
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On May 23 2020 19:29 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2020 17:15 Anc13nt wrote:
well the timing window of a widow mine drop is pretty small so it really comes down a lot to luck and the luck favoured INnoVation. I have to admit I don't like the widow mine drop build either. Feels too low risk for too high reward. Was it unlucky that the stalkers were out of position, his buildings were not placed to spot the drop and failed to pull his probes? It was a major fuckup against a very common strategy that can be countered.
if you watch the vod carefully, INnoVation was poking in with his reaper, which pulled Trap's stalkers out of position. Then in the moment he started dropping, he targeted one of Traps units/buildings in the natural (presumably with his reaper) to draw attention away. I am speculating here but I think that Trap got tricked pretty hard and paid too much attention to the reaper, which lead to his slow reaction to the drop. That sounds like a forgivable mistake to me.
I am pretty bad at SC2 but it does seem awfully strange that pros mess up horribly to the point where a diamond player could handle it better (someone said this for the Maru vs Parting series) like once every few games at the pro level.
Maybe Trap did things that worsened his chances to defend but it just seems weird that pros like Maru and Trap make "beginner level mistakes" multiple times in a series (with both series occurring within a few days of each other). I play BW mostly and BW pros do not make elementary mistakes very often at all.
Also, I have seen the skill level of diamond players and idk about SC2 but a top BW player could probably beat a team of 2 diamond-level players. There is like an entire genre of videos where BW players destroy 2k players (basically like low GM in SC2) with meme builds.
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On May 23 2020 13:14 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2020 13:00 BerserkSword wrote:On May 23 2020 12:32 Alejandrisha wrote:
i literally have no idea how this will go. sc2 has gotten to a point where i never know who is on and who is off. if that is even the thing that creates variance. but, my best bet is
cure 3:2 dear
inno 3:1 trap
betting against protoss is like betting against the fed. yet here i am. well if you bet on protoss winning the Code S for the last 3 or so years, you wouldve lost all your bets lol Protoss has at least made every final except one (Maru vs TY) over the same time period, which is more than terran or protoss have, so the odds on them winning shouldn't actually be too far off.
hehe
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That mine drop give INno the final game.
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Dear looked like he was moving in slow motion but the others played well, looking forward to the semis.
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On May 23 2020 19:53 Anc13nt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2020 19:29 Slydie wrote:On May 23 2020 17:15 Anc13nt wrote:
well the timing window of a widow mine drop is pretty small so it really comes down a lot to luck and the luck favoured INnoVation. I have to admit I don't like the widow mine drop build either. Feels too low risk for too high reward. Was it unlucky that the stalkers were out of position, his buildings were not placed to spot the drop and failed to pull his probes? It was a major fuckup against a very common strategy that can be countered. if you watch the vod carefully, INnoVation was poking in with his reaper, which pulled Trap's stalkers out of position. Then in the moment he started dropping, he targeted one of Traps units/buildings in the natural (presumably with his reaper) to draw attention away. I am speculating here but I think that Trap got tricked pretty hard and paid too much attention to the reaper, which lead to his slow reaction to the drop. That sounds like a forgivable mistake to me. I am pretty bad at SC2 but it does seem awfully strange that pros mess up horribly to the point where a diamond player could handle it better (someone said this for the Maru vs Parting series) like once every few games at the pro level. Maybe Trap did things that worsened his chances to defend but it just seems weird that pros like Maru and Trap make "beginner level mistakes" multiple times in a series (with both series occurring within a few days of each other). I play BW mostly and BW pros do not make elementary mistakes very often at all. Also, I have seen the skill level of diamond players and idk about SC2 but a top BW player could probably beat a team of 2 diamond-level players. There is like an entire genre of videos where BW players destroy 2k players (basically like low GM in SC2) with meme builds.
Innovation is a great player and obviously prepared very well to make his drop succeed, but it could also have been predicted and prepared better for from Trap's pov, for example by checking where to place pylons to see the edge of the map where the drop came in. It is not like multiprong early game harassment is unheard of at this level.
I will open reper-helion+minedrop in every TvP now, maybe I can get as "lucky" as InoVation eventually??
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man what an anticlimatic g5. We all knew it was over after trap lost those 12 probes.... would have hoped for a close, epic game but oh well
PartinG the last #terranpatch hope
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On May 23 2020 21:25 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2020 19:53 Anc13nt wrote:On May 23 2020 19:29 Slydie wrote:On May 23 2020 17:15 Anc13nt wrote:
well the timing window of a widow mine drop is pretty small so it really comes down a lot to luck and the luck favoured INnoVation. I have to admit I don't like the widow mine drop build either. Feels too low risk for too high reward. Was it unlucky that the stalkers were out of position, his buildings were not placed to spot the drop and failed to pull his probes? It was a major fuckup against a very common strategy that can be countered. if you watch the vod carefully, INnoVation was poking in with his reaper, which pulled Trap's stalkers out of position. Then in the moment he started dropping, he targeted one of Traps units/buildings in the natural (presumably with his reaper) to draw attention away. I am speculating here but I think that Trap got tricked pretty hard and paid too much attention to the reaper, which lead to his slow reaction to the drop. That sounds like a forgivable mistake to me. I am pretty bad at SC2 but it does seem awfully strange that pros mess up horribly to the point where a diamond player could handle it better (someone said this for the Maru vs Parting series) like once every few games at the pro level. Maybe Trap did things that worsened his chances to defend but it just seems weird that pros like Maru and Trap make "beginner level mistakes" multiple times in a series (with both series occurring within a few days of each other). I play BW mostly and BW pros do not make elementary mistakes very often at all. Also, I have seen the skill level of diamond players and idk about SC2 but a top BW player could probably beat a team of 2 diamond-level players. There is like an entire genre of videos where BW players destroy 2k players (basically like low GM in SC2) with meme builds. Innovation is a great player and obviously prepared very well to make his drop succeed, but it could also have been predicted and prepared better for from Trap's pov, for example by checking where to place pylons to see the edge of the map where the drop came in. It is not like multiprong early game harassment is unheard of at this level. I will open reper-helion+minedrop in every TvP now, maybe I can get as "lucky" as InoVation eventually??
you will get a shit ton of cheap wins, then eventually you will hit the wall when facing toss all above your level.
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On May 23 2020 19:53 Anc13nt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2020 19:29 Slydie wrote:On May 23 2020 17:15 Anc13nt wrote:
well the timing window of a widow mine drop is pretty small so it really comes down a lot to luck and the luck favoured INnoVation. I have to admit I don't like the widow mine drop build either. Feels too low risk for too high reward. Was it unlucky that the stalkers were out of position, his buildings were not placed to spot the drop and failed to pull his probes? It was a major fuckup against a very common strategy that can be countered. if you watch the vod carefully, INnoVation was poking in with his reaper, which pulled Trap's stalkers out of position. Then in the moment he started dropping, he targeted one of Traps units/buildings in the natural (presumably with his reaper) to draw attention away. I am speculating here but I think that Trap got tricked pretty hard and paid too much attention to the reaper, which lead to his slow reaction to the drop. That sounds like a forgivable mistake to me. I am pretty bad at SC2 but it does seem awfully strange that pros mess up horribly to the point where a diamond player could handle it better (someone said this for the Maru vs Parting series) like once every few games at the pro level. Maybe Trap did things that worsened his chances to defend but it just seems weird that pros like Maru and Trap make "beginner level mistakes" multiple times in a series (with both series occurring within a few days of each other). I play BW mostly and BW pros do not make elementary mistakes very often at all. Also, I have seen the skill level of diamond players and idk about SC2 but a top BW player could probably beat a team of 2 diamond-level players. There is like an entire genre of videos where BW players destroy 2k players (basically like low GM in SC2) with meme builds.
I'm not familiar with SC2 current builds and meta. Nor am I a fan of widow-mines (especially mid-game where a single trap can be game-ending).
But Inno's build and strat in G5 seemed rather deliberate and carefully thought out. Building the rax outside the main initially, the reaper poke, the quick factory, the delayed expo. Either his build was disguised to trick or confuse Trap.
Maybe this is just a normal build, but all the small moves just seem rather inefficient, off-tempo or unconventional - the hallmark of a well-executed timing drop that caught Trap with his pants down as intended (e-han timing as they call in BW?).
Then again, I'm just a casual viewer, so I defer to the experts 
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On May 23 2020 13:54 catplanetcatplanet wrote:
Oh well, glad to see cure advance regardless of entertainment quality. Calling it a night so I'm sure trap/inno will be an amazing 5 game series
Maybe not amazing per se, but for the sake of the community maybe I should sit out the semis
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On May 23 2020 16:12 temporary1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2020 15:58 RoninKenshin wrote:If Trap won, my dream underdog Top 4. I really hope Cure takes it all and Jin Air takes him back after the GSL win. Poor guy has been grinding and contributing for years with nothing to show. On May 23 2020 15:46 Elentos wrote:On May 23 2020 15:45 darklycid wrote:Gotta say that even tho we have 3 terrans in the ro4 i don't think terran is op, they're riding a neat meta advantage currently imo. But some terrans still whine like their race is the weakest and in dire need of buffs, which i'd say is currently very much not the case - I wish the power of the #TerranPatch and #TerranMaps actually reached my ladder games though and not just the pros I watch It's all about the proxies. Just let 4 monster Terrans with crazy micro skew the entire race. Against opponents who play standard instead of anti proxy builds no less. For anyone else, it's a 90% chance of failure. I can't replicate what they do, but I have to bear the weight of their sins. The good ole "its not the race, it is terran players / only these x many players can do this in the world!" -thing that has been going on since 2010.
Same thing Zergs were saying last year. The difference is Zergs were still saying that at the end of the year. If this performance is actually repeated I bet those comments from Terrans will die down. It won't be though. This tournament is a fluke that will naturally happen from time to time in a balanced game. It just looks extra weird because T has been underperforming for 2 years.
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EPT
