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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51484 Posts
 GSL Code SStreams & CastersFormat
Map Pool Quarterfinals![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/958.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/2031.jpg)  Dear vs  Cure![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/618.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/663.jpg) Trap vs INnoVationResultsCSS: FO-nTTaX Awesomeness: Panda Banner: GSL | ||
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51484 Posts
Poll: Dear vs Cure Cure Wins (17) Dear Wins (10) 27 total votes Your vote: Dear vs Cure | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4909 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
I wouldn't be too surprised if Dear beats Cure, but unless Trap has gotten significantly better and Inno has gotten significantly worse in the past week, Inno should stomp. | ||
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
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TheGoatPuncher
76 Posts
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dubRa
2165 Posts
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vult
United States9400 Posts
Inno/Trap should be really fun. Guessing Cure 3-1 Dear, Inno 3-2 Trap. Holding out hope for Parting as the Protoss hope. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
cure 3:2 dear inno 3:1 trap betting against protoss is like betting against the fed. yet here i am. | ||
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mierin
United States4943 Posts
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On May 23 2020 12:32 Alejandrisha wrote: i literally have no idea how this will go. sc2 has gotten to a point where i never know who is on and who is off. if that is even the thing that creates variance. but, my best bet is cure 3:2 dear inno 3:1 trap betting against protoss is like betting against the fed. yet here i am. well if you bet on protoss winning the Code S for the last 3 or so years, you wouldve lost all your bets lol | ||
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
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catplanetcatplanet
3829 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12172 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On May 23 2020 13:00 BerserkSword wrote: well if you bet on protoss winning the Code S for the last 3 or so years, you wouldve lost all your bets lol Protoss has at least made every final except one (Maru vs TY) over the same time period, which is more than terran or protoss have, so the odds on them winning shouldn't actually be too far off. | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On May 23 2020 13:11 Nebuchad wrote: Eh staying up for this might have been a mistake, I'm starting to get tired I might miss both this and TSL ^.^ TSL's going to last at least 8 hours, so I don't think you can miss it. Also wtf is Dear doing. Terrans have been doing this every other map, he should be used to the bunker behind the nat. by now. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12172 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
On May 23 2020 13:08 ZigguratOfUr wrote: TY is a true caster for all the other pros to fear his predictions so. my man caster is gradually becoming artosis ;0o | ||
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OsaX Nymloth
Poland3244 Posts
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darklycid
3473 Posts
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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darklycid
3473 Posts
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Topin
Peru10063 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
edit: Is the map order the exact same as PartinG vs Maru actually? | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
Just Dear derps I guess. | ||
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OsaX Nymloth
Poland3244 Posts
On May 23 2020 13:26 darklycid wrote: Also should have had more vision. Remember Pigbaby vs Taeja? 7 o 9 obs FTW | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2635 Posts
On May 23 2020 13:00 BerserkSword wrote: well if you bet on protoss winning the Code S for the last 3 or so years, you wouldve lost all your bets lol Protoss have been doing well the past years in Code S, the biggest stopping stone was Maru (and that honestly can go for any race lol) and now hes gone so its a safe bet. | ||
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
On May 23 2020 13:26 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Dear's trying to play like PartinG, but he doesn't have the suicidal aggression to go with the build order. any suicidal aggression from Dear could end up being herO ;] | ||
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
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OsaX Nymloth
Poland3244 Posts
On May 23 2020 13:30 seemsgood wrote: any suicidal aggression from Dear could end up being herO ;] Would that be as suicidal as Patience's blinks? | ||
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OsaX Nymloth
Poland3244 Posts
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Topin
Peru10063 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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OsaX Nymloth
Poland3244 Posts
On May 23 2020 13:33 OsaX Nymloth wrote: After first game, I am impressed by Dear now. Early game was flawless, took literally no damage, caught everything. Sick. I jinxed him  | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
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Lexender
Mexico2635 Posts
On May 23 2020 13:32 Morbidius wrote: Honestly this Protoss playstyle is very hard to deal with on ladder, delayed third for agression while teching on 2 bases. Much harder to deal with than the standard 4 minute nexus. I wonder why it is only becoming popular at pro level now. I wonder the same, this style has been used since HotS time (maybe even before), probably they were affraid of terrans mid game power spyike? | ||
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Phredxor
New Zealand15076 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12172 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On May 23 2020 13:32 Morbidius wrote: Honestly this Protoss playstyle is very hard to deal with on ladder, delayed third for agression while teching on 2 bases. Much harder to deal with than the standard 4 minute nexus. I wonder why it is only becoming popular at pro level now. I think PartinG's just being PartinG with the aggression and since he's seeing success with this other players are trying it out. And of course PvT isn't the match-up it was before where Protoss just auto-won macro games and terrans tank pushed most games. | ||
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
On May 23 2020 13:32 OsaX Nymloth wrote: Would that be as suicidal as Patience's blinks? patience dude destroys if give him enough time tho | ||
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Topin
Peru10063 Posts
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darklycid
3473 Posts
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OsaX Nymloth
Poland3244 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
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Die4Ever
United States17671 Posts
On May 23 2020 13:26 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Dear's trying to play like PartinG, but he doesn't have the suicidal aggression to go with the build order. edit: Is the map order the exact same as PartinG vs Maru actually? yea I'm surprised Dear is even trying it, only having 2 days to practice this before the match? and Cure got to practice with Parting before already | ||
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darklycid
3473 Posts
On May 23 2020 13:38 Morbidius wrote: So is this a cheap Parting imitation or is it the new Korean meta? 2nd Game wasn't parting build Just 3gate because hellions. | ||
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Topin
Peru10063 Posts
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Phredxor
New Zealand15076 Posts
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mierin
United States4943 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16065 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On May 23 2020 13:38 Morbidius wrote: So is this a cheap Parting imitation or is it the new Korean meta? This was a normal 3 gate blink fast third, so it isn't a PartinG imitation. And it went fine right up until the point where Dear fell apart. | ||
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catplanetcatplanet
3829 Posts
On May 23 2020 13:38 Fango wrote: Compared to Dear in season 1 of last year, this just feels bad to watch. Just falls apart after 5 minutes He should cheese then | ||
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OsaX Nymloth
Poland3244 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
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OsaX Nymloth
Poland3244 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16065 Posts
On May 23 2020 13:40 OsaX Nymloth wrote: Honestly, what did Dear do wrong? Early game was perfect, no damage received. Then he just stumbled around map, losing some units and terran secures 3cc and bio just rolls over everything, supply surges etc. He lost his Warp Prism in game 2. Lost his obs in Game 1. In both situations before the attack was at Cure's base. A big commitment to Blink Stalkers puts you behind in tech and economy, you need to deal damage to make it worth it, and if Cure kills those two key units before the push gets to him, then it's really hard to get damage out of it. | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2635 Posts
On May 23 2020 13:40 OsaX Nymloth wrote: Honestly, what did Dear do wrong? Early game was perfect, no damage received. Then he just stumbled around map, losing some units and terran secures 3cc and bio just rolls over everything, supply surges etc. Losing prisms, 2 mines that just stood kinda there, completely butched the advantage of going for blink stalkers taking awful trades. After deflecting the hellions he just didn't do anything with what he had. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12172 Posts
On May 23 2020 13:40 OsaX Nymloth wrote: Honestly, what did Dear do wrong? Early game was perfect, no damage received. Then he just stumbled around map, losing some units and terran secures 3cc and bio just rolls over everything, supply surges etc. He completely missed at least three major army movements, at around 5:30 he had like no idea what was going on on the map apart from the adept at the third that saw the medivac. At some point he blinked forward to catch a medivac and there was an army there. You can't just react to shit with blink stalkers, you have to be ready and you have to know where the dude is. | ||
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OsaX Nymloth
Poland3244 Posts
On May 23 2020 13:42 Vindicare605 wrote: He lost his Warp Prism in game 2. Lost his obs in Game 1. In both situations before the attack was at Cure's base. A big commitment to Blink Stalkers puts you behind in tech and economy, you need to deal damage to make it worth it, and if Cure kills those two key units before the push gets to him, then it's really hard to get damage out of it. Stalkers not in hands of Parting are garbage, noted!  Thanks for enlightening me. | ||
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darklycid
3473 Posts
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On May 23 2020 13:40 OsaX Nymloth wrote: Honestly, what did Dear do wrong? Early game was perfect, no damage received. Then he just stumbled around map, losing some units and terran secures 3cc and bio just rolls over everything, supply surges etc. I feel like his movement wasn't right, he could have put a lot of pressure on that on location 3rd cc with the entire army out of position, goes back to being careless with the obs I guess | ||
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OsaX Nymloth
Poland3244 Posts
On May 23 2020 13:43 Nebuchad wrote: He completely missed at least three major army movements, at around 5:30 he had like no idea what was going on on the map apart from the adept at the third that saw the medivac. At some point he blinked forward to catch a medivac and there was an army there. You can't just react to shit with blink stalkers, you have to be ready and you have to know where the dude is. well said. I wonder if we will ever see P going up to 4+ obs again in meta. | ||
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
On May 23 2020 13:40 ZigguratOfUr wrote: This was a normal 3 gate blink fast third, so it isn't a PartinG imitation. And it went fine right up until the point where Dear fell apart. There were other Partingesque things, the extra sentries, no HTs, Dark Shrines going up at the same time. | ||
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OsaX Nymloth
Poland3244 Posts
On May 23 2020 13:44 Nakajin wrote: I feel like his movement wasn't right, he could have put a lot of pressure on that on location 3rd cc with the entire army out of position, goes back to being careless with the obs I guess I kinda wonder how big of a deal is the observer speed nerf. | ||
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catplanetcatplanet
3829 Posts
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OsaX Nymloth
Poland3244 Posts
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12172 Posts
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
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OsaX Nymloth
Poland3244 Posts
Made me think of Mass Effect Andromeda and "my face is tired" | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
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vult
United States9400 Posts
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Topin
Peru10063 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
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darklycid
3473 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12172 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16065 Posts
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vult
United States9400 Posts
On May 23 2020 13:52 ZigguratOfUr wrote: There is some room to criticize Cure's reactions defensively, but it certainly doesn't matter here. why defend when killing protoss base do trick? | ||
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
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catplanetcatplanet
3829 Posts
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darklycid
3473 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
What was Dear's gameplan here? Make Cure look at home to deal with DT so he dies to disruptors? | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
Dear on the other hand just played terribly, he was just so slow today. | ||
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darklycid
3473 Posts
On May 23 2020 13:56 Fango wrote: I don't even think Cure played that well this series. He just did standard builds and hit them to a decent degree. Dear on the other hand just played terribly, he was just so slow today. Just another day in the life of dear | ||
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
On May 23 2020 13:54 catplanetcatplanet wrote: Oh well, glad to see cure advance regardless of entertainment quality. Calling it a night so I'm sure trap/inno will be an amazing 5 game series INno will lose it will be icecold. | ||
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vult
United States9400 Posts
On May 23 2020 13:55 pvsnp wrote: Cure doesn't think he's in the top tier yet hmm. no its a cover of the new The Weeknd song "Blinding Lights". Actual song: Song that was playing: edit: just saw you ninja edit there XD | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12172 Posts
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On May 23 2020 13:56 Fango wrote: I don't even think Cure played that well this series. He just did standard builds and hit them to a decent degree. Dear on the other hand just played terribly, he was just so slow today. I think he played well. There wasn't anything brilliant from Cure certainly, but you need some semblance of opposition to be able to show brilliance. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
watch bogus destroying your last JA hope ;p | ||
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darklycid
3473 Posts
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Schelim
Austria11528 Posts
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Die4Ever
United States17671 Posts
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
On May 23 2020 13:58 Nakajin wrote: If for once in his life INno can live up to his hype, this might be the shortest round of 8 day in GSL history I feel like Maru is choosing who will win with his practice partner quality, and there is no way it's INno. | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On May 23 2020 14:02 Nakajin wrote: Little quiz for you guys, when was the last time we had a round of 4 of GSL with no JinAir player in it? 2017 season 1? edit: wait no thats wrong | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On May 23 2020 14:02 Nakajin wrote: Little quiz for you guys, when was the last time we had a round of 4 of GSL with no JinAir player in it? 2017 sometime I think. Maybe Season 2 cause sOs was in Season 3. | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On May 23 2020 14:03 pvsnp wrote: 2017 sometime I think. Maybe Season 2 cause sOs was in Season 3. Nope | ||
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vult
United States9400 Posts
On May 23 2020 14:02 Nakajin wrote: Little quiz for you guys, when was the last time we had a round of 4 of GSL with no JinAir player in it? if we do the copout "everything labeled GSL is a GSL" then 2018 GSL Super Tourney 1 if not then 2015 Code S Season 1, where LIFE WON?? | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
2015 season 1 (MMA-Parting, Life-herO) would have been the last? | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On May 23 2020 14:05 Fango wrote: wtf, thinking about it I don't think any GSL from 2016/17/18/19 had a no Jin Air ro4 2015 season 1 (MMA-Parting, Life-herO) would have been the last? Yes! | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
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Topin
Peru10063 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
2016 s1 had Cure, s2 had sOs 2017 s1 had sOs, s2 had Maru, s3 had sOs 2018 1-3 had Maru 2019 s1 had Maru, s2 had Trap, s3 had Maru+Trap | ||
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vult
United States9400 Posts
5 years of JAGW dominance. No wonder they still support SC2 XD | ||
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
2015 season 1? Edit: Yeah. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
Absolutely crazy that it's been 5 years since a GSL ro4 didn't have a Jin Air player (and that they still didn't win until Maru's 4peat). | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On May 23 2020 14:06 RKC wrote: What's the difference between Colossus and Disruptor builds in PvT? Former more offensive, latter more defensive? Is opening disruptor that common? Other than in situations where you're behind and go for the hail mary disruptors, or in really gateway heavy styles where you eventually transition. Normally you just get colossi and once you have a few go into other splash like disruptors. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On May 23 2020 14:08 vult wrote: 5 years of JAGW dominance. No wonder they still support SC2 XD Might come to an end here. | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
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blooblooblahblah
Australia4163 Posts
On May 23 2020 14:06 RKC wrote: What's the difference between Colossus and Disruptor builds in PvT? Former more offensive, latter more defensive? Going straight disruptor isn't really viable anymore except maybe a speed drop but that was always a bit of a meme. Your early game is just way too flimsy if you miss a shot and it's really easy to miss a shot if Terran isn't terrible. Disruptor becomes much better later on because you have bigger armies and more economy = more disruptors, so terran has to split against more balls and deal with a bigger army, so it's not longer a case of just split and win. Near max fights, it's way harder to deal with disruptors. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
It only took one of the Chinese teams poaching Cure away. | ||
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vult
United States9400 Posts
if thats the case, it's been a good run. JAGW greatest cumulative SC2 team ever? Maybe only behind IM? | ||
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darklycid
3473 Posts
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
On May 23 2020 14:08 vult wrote: 5 years of JAGW dominance. No wonder they still support SC2 XD How different would it have been if they'd lost the last Proleague ? | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On May 23 2020 14:11 Nakajin wrote: Did INno just said he's gonna leave it to luck? He's grating the cheddar already. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
On May 23 2020 14:12 blooblooblahblah wrote: Going straight disruptor isn't really viable anymore except maybe a speed drop but that was always a bit of a meme. Your early game is just way too flimsy if you miss a shot and it's really easy to miss a shot if Terran isn't terrible. Disruptor becomes much better later on because you have bigger armies and more economy = more disruptors, so terran has to split against more balls and deal with a bigger army, so it's not longer a case of just split and win. Near max fights, it's way harder to deal with disruptors. Sorry, my choice of word in 'builds' was misleading. What I meant was which unit is better in PvT especially to counter bio balls mid or late game? | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On May 23 2020 14:13 DieuCure wrote: How different would it have been if they'd lost the last Proleague ? Maybe the reason they won was because the players weren't expected their careers to be over and the other teams had already given up. | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
edit: Or at least not the aggressive variants | ||
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piche
1 Post
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
On May 23 2020 14:16 Fango wrote: Maybe the reason they won was because the players weren't expected their careers to be over and the other teams had already given up. I don't know what is the worst, sOs canon rushing in the last PL or INno and Dream forcing the cyclone thing. There is also Maru being godly factor tho. | ||
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OsaX Nymloth
Poland3244 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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fastr
France901 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
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Latr02
United States268 Posts
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
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OsaX Nymloth
Poland3244 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
Oh it's Obsidian. Please let it be mech. | ||
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agsub
Singapore368 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12172 Posts
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Topin
Peru10063 Posts
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
Obsidian please salvage this day of Starcraft. | ||
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blooblooblahblah
Australia4163 Posts
On May 23 2020 14:15 RKC wrote: Sorry, my choice of word in 'builds' was misleading. What I meant was which unit is better in PvT especially to counter bio balls mid or late game? Oh, well basically Colossi are more solid at the start, and Disruptor is better later on so honestly the answer is both. You don't often go into Disruptor as your first splash apart from maybe when you've gone a heavy gateway stuff for most of the game. | ||
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fastr
France901 Posts
On May 23 2020 14:21 OsaX Nymloth wrote: Can't wait to get rekted by this build on ladder I mean if you don't see a CC don't you just chrono an immo and defend easily? Trap scouted late enough that Inno denied the probe with his reaper, I don't see Inno doing that again. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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darklycid
3473 Posts
On May 23 2020 14:23 fastr wrote: I mean if you don't see a CC don't you just chrono an immo and defend easily? Trap scouted late enough that Inno denied the probe with his reaper, I don't see Inno doing that again. Terran can do everything behind the depot wall tho, could also be 3 cc, but yeah probably better safe than sorry. | ||
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Latr02
United States268 Posts
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ssg
United States1771 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On May 23 2020 14:25 Latr02 wrote: Haven't we already seen Obsidian like, several times this season? We saw it exactly once with that mech game between TY and Stats. | ||
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
On May 23 2020 14:23 Fango wrote: even the most noob builds work if they're unscouted Why do you shoot at TY ? His rax in base thing is totally fine. | ||
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Elentos
55511 Posts
On May 23 2020 14:25 Latr02 wrote: Haven't we already seen Obsidian like, several times this season? TY vs Stats is the only game on it. | ||
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fastr
France901 Posts
On May 23 2020 14:24 darklycid wrote: Terran can do everything behind the depot wall tho, could also be 3 cc, but yeah probably better safe than sorry. My intuition is that if you don't see the CC you go for early units and either defend the upcoming one base allin or deny the natural forever because there's no bunker/siege tanks to secure it, but I might be completely wrong. | ||
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vult
United States9400 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12172 Posts
Seems a good map for toss though. | ||
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
On May 23 2020 14:21 Morbidius wrote: Innovation has been so sneaky lately, is this a new version? yeah sOs is a full time programmer now ;] | ||
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OsaX Nymloth
Poland3244 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On May 23 2020 14:26 Nebuchad wrote: The minimap looks so ugly ^.^ Seems a good map for toss though. If it's anything like its bigger cousin Darkness Sanctuary it should be. | ||
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fastr
France901 Posts
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Lexender
Mexico2635 Posts
That being said Inno is doing rather well. | ||
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-YoricK-
United States476 Posts
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On May 23 2020 14:23 blooblooblahblah wrote: Oh, well basically Colossi are more solid at the start, and Disruptor is better later on so honestly the answer is both. You don't often go into Disruptor as your first splash apart from maybe when you've gone a heavy gateway stuff for most of the game. IMO disruptors are simply a direct counter to ghosts. with equal control ghost-bio-lib-viking beats colossus-templar-tempest due to the very high strength of enhanced EMP and the fact that you can't really split a protoss army in a meaningful way while microing correctly. it's not like HOTS where colossus-storm is favored against everything. disruptor is the only thing that truly threatens a ghost army and makes the lategame dance balanced disruptors are quite bad against everything except ghosts if terran micros. | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
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Lexender
Mexico2635 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16065 Posts
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darklycid
3473 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On May 23 2020 14:30 Lexender wrote: This map was the best place to proxy 2 rax in the middle. Going macro against protoss in a map that looks like a bigger whirlwind is not a great idea. That being said Inno is doing rather well. It's not bigger than Whirlwind. This is actually about as small as you can make a 4p map without the horizontal/vertical spawns being kinda dumb. On May 23 2020 14:30 -YoricK- wrote: I wonder why Inno didn't veto this map. Trap's playing so greedy and he can't really punish him with standard play. For some reason all the Korean terrans think Golden Wall is terrible in TvP. Not totally sure why given the winrates don't reflect that. Also Protosses have been vetoing Obsidian in PvT (which I don't understand except if you're PartinG). | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12172 Posts
On May 23 2020 14:30 Lexender wrote: This map was the best place to proxy 2 rax in the middle. Going macro against protoss in a map that looks like a bigger whirlwind is not a great idea. That being said Inno is doing rather well. You're more likely to be close spawn than cross map though, if you aren't cross map that's a bit of a waste | ||
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ssg
United States1771 Posts
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OsaX Nymloth
Poland3244 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12172 Posts
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On May 23 2020 14:33 ZigguratOfUr wrote: For some reason all the Korean terrans think Golden Wall is terrible in TvP. Not totally sure why given the winrates don't reflect that. Also Protosses have been vetoing Obsidian in PvT (which I don't understand except if you're PartinG). SpeCial for one said that blink openers are unbeatable on Golden Wall and you have to veto it by default. | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On May 23 2020 14:38 Nebuchad wrote: I mean I really want Trap to win so I'm not complaining but switching from Purity to this midseason makes little sense to me It's a terran nerf. | ||
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Topin
Peru10063 Posts
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fastr
France901 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On May 23 2020 14:39 fastr wrote: So game 1 we had the 2011 1/1/1 one base tank push crushing protoss, game 2 we had the 2013 huge 4 player map with the protoss colossus deathball rolling over the terran, what kind of game 3 throwback we're gonna get? Blink allin probably | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On May 23 2020 14:39 fastr wrote: So game 1 we had the 2011 1/1/1 one base tank push crushing protoss, game 2 we had the 2013 huge 4 player map with the protoss colossus deathball rolling over the terran, what kind of game 3 throwback we're gonna get? 2014 blink allin or 2016 adept allin will be great | ||
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fastr
France901 Posts
Shame the mothership core is no more :o | ||
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Schelim
Austria11528 Posts
On May 23 2020 14:39 fastr wrote: So game 1 we had the 2011 1/1/1 one base tank push crushing protoss, game 2 we had the 2013 huge 4 player map with the protoss colossus deathball rolling over the terran, what kind of game 3 throwback we're gonna get? forcefield the ramp | ||
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Elentos
55511 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16065 Posts
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Elentos
55511 Posts
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fastr
France901 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On May 23 2020 14:39 Fango wrote: SpeCial for one said that blink openers are unbeatable on Golden Wall and you have to veto it by default. That's also what I've heard, but in practice that has turned out to be very much not the case. It's been very 50/50 in pro games so far. And some of the European terrans have been rather less certain about which race Golden Wall favours (though they might have made up their minds of late). | ||
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blooblooblahblah
Australia4163 Posts
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Schelim
Austria11528 Posts
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Lexender
Mexico2635 Posts
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fastr
France901 Posts
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
Not badly played from Trap overall from a bad position, obviously he blundered pretty bad when he tried for the surround | ||
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fastr
France901 Posts
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Lexender
Mexico2635 Posts
On May 23 2020 14:52 Nakajin wrote: Hahaha, Trap went for a 1000 IQ move and just forgot to have anything in his base He forgot a pincer move is suppossed to have 2 sides. | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12172 Posts
On May 23 2020 14:54 fastr wrote: I want to point out how insanely smart it was for Inno to push the third, he knew that if he just went home he'd just get his tanks sniped or his main blinked on, instead he forced trap to defend and forced a game-ending mistake with the probe kills That doesn't sound "insanely smart", that sounds like a fairly logical deduction :p | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On May 23 2020 14:54 fastr wrote: I want to point out how insanely smart it was for Inno to push the third, he knew that if he just went home he'd just get his tanks sniped or his main blinked on, instead he forced trap to defend and forced a game-ending mistake with the probe kills feels like INnoVation is a lot more crafty than before. | ||
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
On May 23 2020 14:52 Nakajin wrote: Hahaha, Trap went for a 1000 IQ move and just forgot to have anything in his base dude didnt expect bogus s 2000IQ improvising tho ;o | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On May 23 2020 14:55 Anc13nt wrote: feels like INnoVation is a lot more crafty than before. He is, but I don't think that's the best example of it. | ||
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fastr
France901 Posts
On May 23 2020 14:55 Nebuchad wrote: That doesn't sound "insanely smart", that sounds like a fairly logical deduction :p Well it was probably a poor choice of words but I still think most terran pros just go home after that attack | ||
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Schelim
Austria11528 Posts
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On May 23 2020 14:56 fastr wrote: Well it was probably a poor choice of words but I still think most terran pros just go home after that attack Yea he was pretty slick in the way to do it to, he was pretty quick to stop renforcing once he saw the stalker out on the map and made the right call to ignore the nexus and to not try to defend the tanks. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On May 23 2020 14:58 Schelim wrote: pretty funny Maru is the only one to mess up the TvTvTvT. well, unless Inno loses the next 2 games of course. Maru hates TvT though, so is it really? | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On May 23 2020 14:58 Schelim wrote: pretty funny Maru is the only one to mess up the TvTvTvT. well, unless Inno loses the next 2 games of course. Has to keep up his reputation as reverse-patchterran | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12172 Posts
On May 23 2020 14:58 Schelim wrote: pretty funny Maru is the only one to mess up the TvTvTvT. well, unless Inno loses the next 2 games of course. I like Simulacrum for Trap's style though | ||
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
what a monstrous hold | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12172 Posts
(Eh game 3 was also okay) | ||
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fastr
France901 Posts
On May 23 2020 15:09 Fango wrote: Imagine how one-sided that hold would have been if Trap didn't lose 99% of the hp on those archons before it started, or had more than one pylon powering everything Imagine this push against a shield battery overcharge :o Impressive crisis-management from Trap though. | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On May 23 2020 15:10 seemsgood wrote: bogus threw that game hard ;o I think he made the right call you cant expect that kind of archon shield battery micro | ||
Waxangel
United States33369 Posts
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
On May 23 2020 15:11 Waxangel wrote: Trap playing like he's offended that we're not calling him the undisputed #1 Protoss :o He has to look at Aligulac then. | ||
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
On May 23 2020 15:10 BerserkSword wrote: I think he made the right call you cant expect that kind of archon shield battery micro but dude could ve disabled warp prism and free killed 2 archons | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On May 23 2020 15:10 BerserkSword wrote: I think he made the right call you cant expect that kind of archon shield battery micro Nah he could have killed at least one archon guaranteed, or both if he focused/diasbled the prism | ||
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Elentos
55511 Posts
On May 23 2020 15:11 Waxangel wrote: Trap playing like he's offended that we're not calling him the undisputed #1 Protoss :o He for sure thinks TL writers are plebeians for predicting him to go 0-3 against a Terran. | ||
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Waxangel
United States33369 Posts
enlightened elitist SC2 fans should know better than to trust a mathematical formula  | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On May 23 2020 15:12 Elentos wrote: He for sure thinks TL writers are plebeians for predicting him to go 0-3 against a Terran. To be fair that's literally what happened when they played last week. | ||
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Elentos
55511 Posts
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
On May 23 2020 15:12 Waxangel wrote: enlightened elitist SC2 fans should know better than to trust a mathematical formula He his a top 30 player, not bad for a regulary ro4 GSL player. | ||
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Elentos
55511 Posts
On May 23 2020 15:14 ZigguratOfUr wrote: To be fair that's literally what happened when they played last week. To be fair TY lost to Elazer a day before beating Dark. | ||
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
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Elentos
55511 Posts
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starkiller123
United States4030 Posts
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33369 Posts
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Elentos
55511 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On May 23 2020 15:17 Waxangel wrote: Trap is definitely the new Stats.... in terms of losing probes to mines Or the new sOs, or new Dear. Seriously it's insane how much damage even the best protoss take to widow mines | ||
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
On May 23 2020 15:17 Elentos wrote: Is this the Cure revenge GSL where he beats up all his bullies in the playoffs still waiting for revenge of creator ;] | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On May 23 2020 15:18 Fango wrote: Or the new sOs, or new Dear. Seriously it's insane how much damage even the best protoss take to widow mines They're really a unit that needs a buff. | ||
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Elentos
55511 Posts
On May 23 2020 15:18 Fango wrote: Or the new sOs, or new Dear. Seriously it's insane how much damage even the best protoss take to widow mines They just take almost no damage most games but of all the games we see the ones where they get rekt. Even at my level I have to do a lot of mine drops to get one that kills 12 workers. | ||
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Waxangel
United States33369 Posts
On May 23 2020 15:18 Fango wrote: Or the new sOs, or new Dear. Seriously it's insane how much damage even the best protoss take to widow mines It was a brood war joke | ||
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Elentos
55511 Posts
It's not that much of a buff. Also I'm already looking forward to those times where I lose my armory and have widow mines with drilling claws that don't stay cloaked | ||
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OsaX Nymloth
Poland3244 Posts
rip toss | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16065 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12172 Posts
gg! | ||
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starkiller123
United States4030 Posts
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vult
United States9400 Posts
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Elentos
55511 Posts
On May 23 2020 15:22 Fango wrote: Trap could have won the game with that disruptor hit and completely whiffed it I think it still would have been too little too late but yeah missing the center of that army hurt to look at. | ||
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Solar424
United States4001 Posts
On May 23 2020 15:22 OsaX Nymloth wrote: rip tossHey, you guys at least managed to win a few games in the playoffs. | ||
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mierin
United States4943 Posts
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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Schelim
Austria11528 Posts
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
On May 23 2020 15:22 OsaX Nymloth wrote: rip tossstill a cookie for trap for holding on for dat long ;p | ||
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LennX
4549 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On May 23 2020 15:19 Elentos wrote: They just take almost no damage most games but of all the games we see the ones where they get rekt. Even at my level I have to do a lot of mine drops to get one that kills 12 workers. There's probably a memory bias sure, but the fact it happens so often to begin with is strange. Maybe players at lower ranks are just more likely to be watching their main base 90% of the time, whereas pros tend to go back to hit macro only. | ||
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
On May 23 2020 15:26 DieuCure wrote: INno is going to be like a cake for Cure. bogus will 4-0 you ;] | ||
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33369 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12172 Posts
On May 23 2020 15:25 Fango wrote: There's probably a memory bias sure, but the fact it happens so often to begin with is strange. Maybe players at lower ranks are just more likely to be watching their main base 90% of the time, whereas pros tend to go back to hit macro only. The terran is also executing better. The drop was invisible until last second and came from a weird angle. And despite that Trap was barely too late | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On May 23 2020 15:25 Fango wrote: There's probably a memory bias sure, but the fact it happens so often to begin with is strange. Maybe players at lower ranks are just more likely to be watching their main base 90% of the time, whereas pros tend to go back to hit macro only. Conversely pros might be better at dropping mines. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On May 23 2020 15:26 DieuCure wrote: INno is going to be like a cake for Cure. Inno thrashes online Cure in TvT all the time. Cure is literally the player he beats up the most according to aligulac. | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
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Elentos
55511 Posts
This is the new and improved offline Cure though who actually prepares for his GSL matches and does smart things. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On May 23 2020 15:27 Nebuchad wrote: The terran is also executing better. The drop was invisible until last second and came from a weird angle. And despite that Trap was barely too late Anyone can execute a mine drop pretty much as well as the pros though. Lower level players are more likely to hit it later/fall behind in macro/not react to things elsewhere on the map, sure. But you could teach someone who doesn't play sc2 to click a medivac behind someones mineral line and boost it in. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On May 23 2020 15:29 Elentos wrote: This is the new and improved offline Cure though who actually prepares for his GSL matches and does smart things. I dunno, his play today was competent but not amazing. Still more impressed by online Cure. And in any case, Cure is a super textbook macro guy; it feels like the new and improved Inno will run rings around him. Something something double proxy BC. | ||
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
On May 23 2020 15:28 pvsnp wrote: Inno thrashes online Cure in TvT all the time. Cure is literally the player he beats up the most according to aligulac. According to the plan ! | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On May 23 2020 15:29 Fango wrote: Anyone can execute a mine drop pretty much as well as the pros though. Lower level players are more likely to hit it later/fall behind in macro/not react to things elsewhere on the map, sure. But you could teach someone who doesn't play sc2 to click a medivac behind someones mineral line and boost it in. ...no? If someone can execute a mine drop as well as the pros then they wouldn't be a lower level player. Dropping mines isn't rocket science, but it's hardly as simple as that. There's burrowing/unburrowing, focus firing, spreading the mines, distracting the opponent and so on. | ||
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Elentos
55511 Posts
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dbRic1203
Germany2655 Posts
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temporary1
69 Posts
On May 23 2020 15:29 Fango wrote: Anyone can execute a mine drop pretty much as well as the pros though. Lower level players are more likely to hit it later/fall behind in macro/not react to things elsewhere on the map, sure. But you could teach someone who doesn't play sc2 to click a medivac behind someones mineral line and boost it in. Yeah compared to what PartinG did to this game 5, which was mine drop that wasn't spotted and then the game was over. It is not too good for spectators, it doesn't get people excited the right way (but in "oh no, hopefully he isn't gonna lose because of this" -way). | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On May 23 2020 15:34 ZigguratOfUr wrote: ...no? If someone can execute a mine drop as well as the pros then they wouldn't be a lower level player. Dropping mines isn't rocket science, but it's hardly as simple as that. There's burrowing/unburrowing, focus firing, spreading the mines, distracting the opponent and so on. Yeah except the mine drops I'm talking about having nothing to do with burrow/unburrow micro, focus fire spam, distractions etc. I'm literally just refering to the standard mine drop that occur when (pretty much) nothing is happening on the map. It's shocking to see even the best protoss lose their mineral lines to it. (Irrelevant, but even those micro tricks are things can be done easily by low level players, there's nothing mechanically demanding about it, the real difference between noob and pro is that the pro will be doing other actions at the same time). | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12172 Posts
On May 23 2020 15:29 Fango wrote: Anyone can execute a mine drop pretty much as well as the pros though. Lower level players are more likely to hit it later/fall behind in macro/not react to things elsewhere on the map, sure. But you could teach someone who doesn't play sc2 to click a medivac behind someones mineral line and boost it in. You can do it but you likely don't do it every game, which impacts on how much damage you do overall. I'm sure there are examples of pros not doing it very well also, it's just less frequent. I don't think we're disagreeing | ||
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temporary1
69 Posts
On May 23 2020 15:34 ZigguratOfUr wrote: ...no? If someone can execute a mine drop as well as the pros then they wouldn't be a lower level player. Dropping mines isn't rocket science, but it's hardly as simple as that. There's burrowing/unburrowing, focus firing, spreading the mines, distracting the opponent and so on. Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of mine drop. Even one successful mine drop basically ends pvt if it happens in first 10 minutes (while not having too much risk to dropping terran), and this game just showed it does happen at the highest level too. It doesn't even matter if it comes 30 seconds or a minute later that it came in that game 5, results is pretty much the same. | ||
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darklycid
3473 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On May 23 2020 15:40 Fango wrote: Yeah except the mine drops I'm talking about having nothing to do with burrow/unburrow micro, focus fire spam, distractions etc. I'm literally just refering to the standard mine drop that occur when (pretty much) nothing is happening on the map. It's shocking to see even the best protoss lose their mineral lines to it. (Irrelevant, but even those micro tricks are things can be done easily by low level players, there's nothing mechanically demanding about it, the real difference between noob and pro is that the pro will be doing other actions at the same time). It's quite rarely the standard first mine drop that does significant damage though. It's just that the terrans keep on dropping, and given how cheap widow mines are one of the drops gets there eventually. | ||
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temporary1
69 Posts
On May 23 2020 15:34 ZigguratOfUr wrote: ...no? If someone can execute a mine drop as well as the pros then they wouldn't be a lower level player. Dropping mines isn't rocket science, but it's hardly as simple as that. There's burrowing/unburrowing, focus firing, spreading the mines, distracting the opponent and so on. Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of mine drop. Even one successful mine drop basically ends pvt if it happens in first 10 minutes (while not having too much risk to dropping terran), and this game just showed it does happen at the highest level too. It doesn't even matter if it comes 30 seconds or a minute later than it came in that game 5, result is pretty much the same. | ||
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Elentos
55511 Posts
On May 23 2020 15:45 darklycid wrote: Gotta say that even tho we have 3 terrans in the ro4 i don't think terran is op, they're riding a neat meta advantage currently imo. But some terrans still whine like their race is the weakest and in dire need of buffs, which i'd say is currently very much not the case -I wish the power of the #TerranPatch and #TerranMaps actually reached my ladder games though and not just the pros I watch | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On May 23 2020 15:46 Elentos wrote: I wish the power of the #TerranPatch and #TerranMaps actually reached my ladder games I hear that mass Thor is "literally unbeatable" against Zerg. | ||
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Elentos
55511 Posts
On May 23 2020 15:47 pvsnp wrote: I hear that mass Thor is "literally unbeatable" against Zerg. Can't confirm, have lost with it. Most of my issues are TvP-related though. | ||
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Luolis
Finland7104 Posts
On May 23 2020 15:43 temporary1 wrote: Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of mine drop. Even one successful mine drop basically ends pvt if it happens in first 10 minutes (while not having too much risk to dropping terran), and this game just showed it does happen at the highest level too. It doesn't even matter if it comes 30 seconds or a minute later that it came in that game 5, results is pretty much the same. You're not serious right? | ||
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darklycid
3473 Posts
On May 23 2020 15:49 Elentos wrote: Can't confirm, have lost with it. Most of my issues are TvP-related though. Think the most problems with terrans at the sub gm lvl is the multitasking kinda needed to play a bio game, which is why i think it's the strongest when terrans have stuff ready to compensate for that like turrets in the main vs prism (maybe even 1 more than neccessary), or a bunker at the third, so you can kinda focus on your army, or you just deal alot of dmg in the early game | ||
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temporary1
69 Posts
Oh I am. You know you shouldn't post messages that have no content, right? | ||
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RoninKenshin
Canada97 Posts
On May 23 2020 15:46 Elentos wrote: I wish the power of the #TerranPatch and #TerranMaps actually reached my ladder games though and not just the pros I watch It's all about the proxies. Just let 4 monster Terrans with crazy micro skew the entire race. Against opponents who play standard instead of anti proxy builds no less. For anyone else, it's a 90% chance of failure. I can't replicate what they do, but I have to bear the weight of their sins. | ||
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Elentos
55511 Posts
On May 23 2020 15:53 darklycid wrote: Think the most problems with terrans at the sub gm lvl is the multitasking kinda needed to play a bio game, which is why i think it's the strongest when terrans have stuff ready to compensate for that like turrets in the main vs prism (maybe even 1 more than neccessary), or a bunker at the third, so you can kinda focus on your army, or you just deal alot of dmg in the early game I dunno somehow 1 more turret than necessary is often still one too few and the prism zips by It's probably true about the mechanical requirements of bio though. I'd like to make it work cause it's fun but against players of my MMR mech works way better for me. | ||
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c4rn
4 Posts
Feel like buffing terran (mines..) is not what is needed in the current meta. Impressive to see 3/4 terrans in ro4, rooting for PartinG to not make it a mirror final. | ||
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darklycid
3473 Posts
On May 23 2020 15:58 Elentos wrote: I dunno somehow 1 more turret than necessary is often still one too few and the prism zips by It's probably true about the mechanical requirements of bio though. I'd like to make it work cause it's fun but against players of my MMR mech works way better for me. Put a mine next to the turret | ||
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Elentos
55511 Posts
Works sometimes but then that mine is either missing from my army or from their mineral line both of which I'm not okay with | ||
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Luolis
Finland7104 Posts
On May 23 2020 15:56 temporary1 wrote: Oh I am. You know you shouldn't post messages that have no content, right? I was gonna post "hahaha" but i thought that that would've been too much no content. You could make that point for so many units. Let me give you some examples "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of disruptors. Even one succesful disruptor hit basically ends pvt if it happens in the first 10 minutes (while not having too much risk to protoss)." "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of banelings. Even one succesful baneling hit basically ends zvt if it ever happens (and lower level terrans arent known for their micro skills)." "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of DTs. Even one unnoticed dark templar basically ends pvt if there is no scan (while not having too much risk to protoss)." Is this good enough of a point? | ||
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temporary1
69 Posts
On May 23 2020 15:58 RoninKenshin wrote: If Trap won, my dream underdog Top 4. I really hope Cure takes it all and Jin Air takes him back after the GSL win. Poor guy has been grinding and contributing for years with nothing to show. It's all about the proxies. Just let 4 monster Terrans with crazy micro skew the entire race. Against opponents who play standard instead of anti proxy builds no less. For anyone else, it's a 90% chance of failure. I can't replicate what they do, but I have to bear the weight of their sins. The good ole "its not the race, it is terran players / only these x many players can do this in the world!" -thing that has been going on since 2010. | ||
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temporary1
69 Posts
On May 23 2020 16:11 Luolis wrote: I was gonna post "hahaha" but i thought that that would've been too much no content. You could make that point for so many units. Let me give you some examples "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of disruptors. Even one succesful disruptor hit basically ends pvt if it happens in the first 10 minutes (while not having too much risk to protoss)." "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of banelings. Even one succesful baneling hit basically ends zvt if it ever happens (and lower level terrans arent known for their micro skills)." "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of DTs. Even one unnoticed dark templar basically ends pvt if there is no scan (while not having too much risk to protoss)." Is this good enough of a point? You are comparing apples to oranges. Protoss doing disruptor hit that makes the same impact would require a huge amount more resources and micro. Protoss would have to rush both disruptors and prism, robotics bay is 150/150, 2 disruptors are 300/300 to make it total of 450/450 deviation from "normal" tech path before 10 minutes compared to terran deviation of about 200/50 (if no deviation at all, defensive mines can be considered to be at normal tech path), would require way better micro to hit as efficiently as mines with their auto-targeting, and would expose protoss to counter attack that would likely end the game if those disruptors would be lost, to "oh well, lets go again then" scenario if terran loses drop. Baneling bust and dt's are also not on standard builds. Later game all harrasment methods get more even, and their impact diminishes. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On May 23 2020 15:59 c4rn wrote: Hope Blizz reconsiders it's balance changes once again - as they likely will do anyways regardless of GSL's results, though. Feel like buffing terran (mines..) is not what is needed in the current meta. Impressive to see 3/4 terrans in ro4, rooting for PartinG to not make it a mirror final. Sounds like wishful thinking to me. Also they said this: Barring bug fixes, these will be the final changes reflected in the next balance patch, which is currently scheduled to be released in early June, after the finals of a few major tournaments. | ||
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Luolis
Finland7104 Posts
On May 23 2020 16:27 temporary1 wrote: You are comparing apples to oranges. Protoss doing disruptor hit that makes the same impact would require a huge amount more resources and micro. Protoss would have to rush both disruptors and prism, robotics bay is 150/150, 2 disruptors are 300/300 to make it total of 450/450 deviation from "normal" tech path before 10 minutes compared to terran deviation of about 200/50 (if no deviation at all, defensive mines can be considered to be at normal tech path), would require way better micro to hit as efficiently as mines with their auto-targeting, and would expose protoss to counter attack that would likely end the game if those disruptors would be lost, to "oh well, lets go again then" scenario if terran loses drop. Baneling bust and dt's are also not on standard builds. Later game all harrasment methods get more even, and their impact diminishes. My point still stands. Especially on a lower level one disruptor can effectively end the game in one shot (same thing that youre talking about with mines but multiplied). I wasn't talking about a baneling bust, just banelings in general... My point with them was that if you get one lucky hit the game can just be over there and then. As for DT's, no it's not a standard build but it's still a straight up gg moment if unscouted and hits at a bad timing. What i was going for here is that on lower levels you can make the same point for literally every unit. If you truly believe that "worse players" are on a higher level than they should be because of "how efficient mine drops are", you are delusional. | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On May 23 2020 16:11 Luolis wrote: I was gonna post "hahaha" but i thought that that would've been too much no content. You could make that point for so many units. Let me give you some examples "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of disruptors. Even one succesful disruptor hit basically ends pvt if it happens in the first 10 minutes (while not having too much risk to protoss)." "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of banelings. Even one succesful baneling hit basically ends zvt if it ever happens (and lower level terrans arent known for their micro skills)." "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of DTs. Even one unnoticed dark templar basically ends pvt if there is no scan (while not having too much risk to protoss)." Is this good enough of a point? A disruptor in the first 10 minutes of the game is nowhere near as good as mine drops are in TvP. First of all, early disruptors mean that youre going to be lacking in a better early game AOE unit. Second of all, if a disruptor nova whiffs in an earlier engagement, the Protoss pretty much dies. And it whiffs often at this point because the armies are not that large and the engagements not that many, so it's easy to dodge a nova and just maul the protoss army to death. Compare that to widow mine drops - they are so effective that it doesnt even matter if the first or second ones dont do anything. The Terran player can easily survive and macro out of it almost like nothing happene.d Banelings are a zerg's attempt to trade gas units for mineral units that can even beat banelings if used properly. I don't think there's quite anything like a TvP widow mine drop in the game. I think it's terrible design. We are talking dudes named "shield of aiur" losing double digit workers to them, and Terran economy is so strong that when it happens it's basically GG for protoss. | ||
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Luolis
Finland7104 Posts
On May 23 2020 16:42 BerserkSword wrote: A disruptor in the first 10 minutes of the game is nowhere near as good as mine drops are in TvP. First of all, early disruptors mean that youre going to be lacking in a better early game AOE unit. Second of all, if a disruptor nova whiffs in an earlier engagement, the Protoss pretty much dies. And it whiffs often at this point because the armies are not that large and the engagements not that many, so it's easy to dodge a nova and just maul the protoss army to death. Compare that to widow mine drops - they are so effective that it doesnt even matter if the first or second ones dont do anything. The Terran player can easily survive and macro out of it almost like nothing happene.d Banelings are a zerg's attempt to trade gas units for mineral units that can even beat banelings if used properly. I don't think there's quite anything like a TvP widow mine drop in the game. I think it's terrible design. We are talking dudes named "shield of aiur" losing double digit workers to them, and Terran economy is so strong that when it happens it's basically GG for protoss. Read my later message... | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On May 23 2020 16:42 BerserkSword wrote: A disruptor in the first 10 minutes of the game is nowhere near as good as mine drops are in TvP. First of all, early disruptors mean that youre going to be lacking in a better early game AOE unit. Second of all, if a disruptor nova whiffs in an earlier engagement, the Protoss pretty much dies. And it whiffs often at this point because the armies are not that large and the engagements not that many, so it's easy to dodge a nova and just maul the protoss army to death. Compare that to widow mine drops - they are so effective that it doesnt even matter if the first or second ones dont do anything. The Terran player can easily survive and macro out of it almost like nothing happene.d Banelings are a zerg's attempt to trade gas units for mineral units that can even beat banelings if used properly. I don't think there's quite anything like a TvP widow mine drop in the game. I think it's terrible design. We are talking dudes named "shield of aiur" losing double digit workers to them, and Terran economy is so strong that when it happens it's basically GG for protoss. The guy nicknamed "Shield of Aiur" is literally so famous for losing probes to widow and spider mines that they turned his name into a meme. 머-엽, or getting Stats'd. | ||
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Slydie
1913 Posts
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temporary1
69 Posts
On May 23 2020 16:34 Luolis wrote: My point still stands. Especially on a lower level one disruptor can effectively end the game in one shot (same thing that youre talking about with mines but multiplied). I wasn't talking about a baneling bust, just banelings in general... My point with them was that if you get one lucky hit the game can just be over there and then. As for DT's, no it's not a standard build but it's still a straight up gg moment if unscouted and hits at a bad timing. What i was going for here is that on lower levels you can make the same point for literally every unit. If you truly believe that "worse players" are on a higher level than they should be because of "how efficient mine drops are", you are delusional. Except that it doesn't stand. I don't know how much you have been playing at lower level. But said rushing to disruptors to try to do one hit or miss attack that can lose you the game is not s way to go at lower level. Also disruptors are way too complicated to control for lower level players that they probably aren't on lower level players tech paths. Banelings in early game are somewhat comparable but I believe they still require more dedicated approach and more opportunity cost than mines that require no additional planning. DTs hardly compare. First of all they are not at PvT standard build. Secondly they don't win a game within seconds. All races should have detection in their standard build anyways so those shouldn't even be a problem. Back in the days when detection wasn't as easy to have as it is today, even then even DT rush wasn't autowin as missed minedrop effectively is today. As I implied, late game harrassment is less impactful and therefore more balanced between races. But you won't get to late game if you lose the game before 10 mins is full because you had late reaction to one minedrop. | ||
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Luolis
Finland7104 Posts
On May 23 2020 17:08 temporary1 wrote: Except that it doesn't stand. I don't know how much you have been playing at lower level. But said rushing to disruptors to try to do one hit or miss attack that can lose you the game is not s way to go at lower level. Also disruptors are way too complicated to control for lower level players that they probably aren't on lower level players tech paths. Banelings in early game are somewhat comparable but I believe they still require more dedicated approach and more opportunity cost than mines that require no additional planning. DTs hardly compare. First of all they are not at PvT standard build. Secondly they don't win a game within seconds. All races should have detection in their standard build anyways so those shouldn't even be a problem. Back in the days when detection wasn't as easy to have as it is today, even then even DT rush wasn't autowin as missed minedrop effectively is today. As I implied, late game harrassment is less impactful and therefore more balanced between races. But you won't get to late game if you lose the game before 10 mins is full because you had late reaction to one minedrop. Oh my fucking god, i was not talking about earlygame only. Literally any unit on the lower leagues can be called imba because lower league players are terrible. There are as much players that are in a higher league than they should because of mine drops, as there are because of zealots, stalkers, immortals, colossi, disruptors, high templars, dark templars, archons, sentries, zerglings, banelings, roaches, ravagers, lurkers, broodlords, mutalisks, ultralisks, hydralisks, infestors, marines, marauders, reapers, siege tanks, thors, hellions, banshees, ravens, battlecruisers and any other unit in the game. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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temporary1
69 Posts
On May 23 2020 17:14 Luolis wrote: Oh my fucking god, i was not talking about earlygame only. Literally any unit on the lower leagues can be called imba because lower league players are terrible. There are as much players that are in a higher league than they should because of mine drops, as there are because of zealots, stalkers, immortals, colossi, disruptors, high templars, dark templars, archons, sentries, zerglings, banelings, roaches, ravagers, lurkers, broodlords, mutalisks, ultralisks, hydralisks, infestors, marines, marauders, reapers, siege tanks, thors, hellions, banshees, ravens, battlecruisers and any other unit in the game. Well, since it was you who responded to my post, I think it is me who dictates what I am talking about. Widow mine is problematic in early game, as I have repeatedly said, harrassment impact diminishes as game progresses, but one or two WM hits can lose a game at top level as it did in game 5 today. Those hits are easy to execute, do not require (practically) any additional tech and contain very little risk compared to reward | ||
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Luolis
Finland7104 Posts
On May 23 2020 18:19 temporary1 wrote: Well, since it was you who responded to my post, I think it is me who dictates what I am talking about. Your first sentence was "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of mine drop". I was commenting on that. Reading comprehension is allowed to be used. | ||
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temporary1
69 Posts
On May 23 2020 18:27 Luolis wrote: Your first sentence was "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of mine drop". I was commenting on that. Reading comprehension is allowed to be used. So you are basically making a null argument that balance doesn't matter at lower levels because players are bad? | ||
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Luolis
Finland7104 Posts
On May 23 2020 19:00 temporary1 wrote: So you are basically making a null argument that balance doesn't matter at lower levels because players are bad? Please tell me how that argument is null. | ||
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temporary1
69 Posts
Because it voids all arguments. Why would you take part into balance discussion in the first place if you think it doesn't matter and "players are bad" supersedes all other arguments? What if we have a colossus that shoots air and ground, flies and oneshots every other unit? A marine that has unlimited range? | ||
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Slydie
1913 Posts
On May 23 2020 17:15 Anc13nt wrote: well the timing window of a widow mine drop is pretty small so it really comes down a lot to luck and the luck favoured INnoVation. I have to admit I don't like the widow mine drop build either. Feels too low risk for too high reward. Was it unlucky that the stalkers were out of position, his buildings were not placed to spot the drop and failed to pull his probes? It was a major fuckup against a very common strategy that can be countered. | ||
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SpaWnvERtiGO
110 Posts
On May 23 2020 15:29 Fango wrote: Anyone can execute a mine drop pretty much as well as the pros though. Lower level players are more likely to hit it later/fall behind in macro/not react to things elsewhere on the map, sure. But you could teach someone who doesn't play sc2 to click a medivac behind someones mineral line and boost it in. Sure, and anyone can blink micro like Parting too... You noobs really think you are pro level.... Its funny... User was warned for this post | ||
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SpaWnvERtiGO
110 Posts
On May 23 2020 15:40 Fango wrote: Yeah except the mine drops I'm talking about having nothing to do with burrow/unburrow micro, focus fire spam, distractions etc. I'm literally just refering to the standard mine drop that occur when (pretty much) nothing is happening on the map. It's shocking to see even the best protoss lose their mineral lines to it. (Irrelevant, but even those micro tricks are things can be done easily by low level players, there's nothing mechanically demanding about it, the real difference between noob and pro is that the pro will be doing other actions at the same time). Starcraft players are delusional half the time.... complaining about shit that doesnt even affect thier games. I MIGHT be wrong, but I think Inno INVENTED the drilling claws build, in a GSL game vs Zest.. I gotta track down the vid.... If anyone's going to pull it off, its Inno.... | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On May 23 2020 19:29 Slydie wrote: Was it unlucky that the stalkers were out of position, his buildings were not placed to spot the drop and failed to pull his probes? It was a major fuckup against a very common strategy that can be countered. if you watch the vod carefully, INnoVation was poking in with his reaper, which pulled Trap's stalkers out of position. Then in the moment he started dropping, he targeted one of Traps units/buildings in the natural (presumably with his reaper) to draw attention away. I am speculating here but I think that Trap got tricked pretty hard and paid too much attention to the reaper, which lead to his slow reaction to the drop. That sounds like a forgivable mistake to me. I am pretty bad at SC2 but it does seem awfully strange that pros mess up horribly to the point where a diamond player could handle it better (someone said this for the Maru vs Parting series) like once every few games at the pro level. Maybe Trap did things that worsened his chances to defend but it just seems weird that pros like Maru and Trap make "beginner level mistakes" multiple times in a series (with both series occurring within a few days of each other). I play BW mostly and BW pros do not make elementary mistakes very often at all. Also, I have seen the skill level of diamond players and idk about SC2 but a top BW player could probably beat a team of 2 diamond-level players. There is like an entire genre of videos where BW players destroy 2k players (basically like low GM in SC2) with meme builds. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On May 23 2020 13:14 Fango wrote: Protoss has at least made every final except one (Maru vs TY) over the same time period, which is more than terran or protoss have, so the odds on them winning shouldn't actually be too far off. hehe | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4909 Posts
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Penev
28475 Posts
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Slydie
1913 Posts
On May 23 2020 19:53 Anc13nt wrote: if you watch the vod carefully, INnoVation was poking in with his reaper, which pulled Trap's stalkers out of position. Then in the moment he started dropping, he targeted one of Traps units/buildings in the natural (presumably with his reaper) to draw attention away. I am speculating here but I think that Trap got tricked pretty hard and paid too much attention to the reaper, which lead to his slow reaction to the drop. That sounds like a forgivable mistake to me. I am pretty bad at SC2 but it does seem awfully strange that pros mess up horribly to the point where a diamond player could handle it better (someone said this for the Maru vs Parting series) like once every few games at the pro level. Maybe Trap did things that worsened his chances to defend but it just seems weird that pros like Maru and Trap make "beginner level mistakes" multiple times in a series (with both series occurring within a few days of each other). I play BW mostly and BW pros do not make elementary mistakes very often at all. Also, I have seen the skill level of diamond players and idk about SC2 but a top BW player could probably beat a team of 2 diamond-level players. There is like an entire genre of videos where BW players destroy 2k players (basically like low GM in SC2) with meme builds. Innovation is a great player and obviously prepared very well to make his drop succeed, but it could also have been predicted and prepared better for from Trap's pov, for example by checking where to place pylons to see the edge of the map where the drop came in. It is not like multiprong early game harassment is unheard of at this level. I will open reper-helion+minedrop in every TvP now, maybe I can get as "lucky" as InoVation eventually?? | ||
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SharkStarcraft
Austria2225 Posts
PartinG the last #terranpatch hope | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4909 Posts
On May 23 2020 21:25 Slydie wrote: Innovation is a great player and obviously prepared very well to make his drop succeed, but it could also have been predicted and prepared better for from Trap's pov, for example by checking where to place pylons to see the edge of the map where the drop came in. It is not like multiprong early game harassment is unheard of at this level. I will open reper-helion+minedrop in every TvP now, maybe I can get as "lucky" as InoVation eventually?? you will get a shit ton of cheap wins, then eventually you will hit the wall when facing toss all above your level. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
On May 23 2020 19:53 Anc13nt wrote: if you watch the vod carefully, INnoVation was poking in with his reaper, which pulled Trap's stalkers out of position. Then in the moment he started dropping, he targeted one of Traps units/buildings in the natural (presumably with his reaper) to draw attention away. I am speculating here but I think that Trap got tricked pretty hard and paid too much attention to the reaper, which lead to his slow reaction to the drop. That sounds like a forgivable mistake to me. I am pretty bad at SC2 but it does seem awfully strange that pros mess up horribly to the point where a diamond player could handle it better (someone said this for the Maru vs Parting series) like once every few games at the pro level. Maybe Trap did things that worsened his chances to defend but it just seems weird that pros like Maru and Trap make "beginner level mistakes" multiple times in a series (with both series occurring within a few days of each other). I play BW mostly and BW pros do not make elementary mistakes very often at all. Also, I have seen the skill level of diamond players and idk about SC2 but a top BW player could probably beat a team of 2 diamond-level players. There is like an entire genre of videos where BW players destroy 2k players (basically like low GM in SC2) with meme builds. I'm not familiar with SC2 current builds and meta. Nor am I a fan of widow-mines (especially mid-game where a single trap can be game-ending). But Inno's build and strat in G5 seemed rather deliberate and carefully thought out. Building the rax outside the main initially, the reaper poke, the quick factory, the delayed expo. Either his build was disguised to trick or confuse Trap. Maybe this is just a normal build, but all the small moves just seem rather inefficient, off-tempo or unconventional - the hallmark of a well-executed timing drop that caught Trap with his pants down as intended (e-han timing as they call in BW?). Then again, I'm just a casual viewer, so I defer to the experts | ||
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catplanetcatplanet
3829 Posts
On May 23 2020 13:54 catplanetcatplanet wrote: Oh well, glad to see cure advance regardless of entertainment quality. Calling it a night so I'm sure trap/inno will be an amazing 5 game series Maybe not amazing per se, but for the sake of the community maybe I should sit out the semis | ||
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JJH777
United States4405 Posts
On May 23 2020 16:12 temporary1 wrote: The good ole "its not the race, it is terran players / only these x many players can do this in the world!" -thing that has been going on since 2010. Same thing Zergs were saying last year. The difference is Zergs were still saying that at the end of the year. If this performance is actually repeated I bet those comments from Terrans will die down. It won't be though. This tournament is a fluke that will naturally happen from time to time in a balanced game. It just looks extra weird because T has been underperforming for 2 years. | ||
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
2/2 bets btw | ||
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neptunusfisk
2286 Posts
On May 23 2020 16:11 Luolis wrote: I was gonna post "hahaha" but i thought that that would've been too much no content. You could make that point for so many units. Let me give you some examples "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of disruptors. Even one succesful disruptor hit basically ends pvt if it happens in the first 10 minutes (while not having too much risk to protoss)." "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of banelings. Even one succesful baneling hit basically ends zvt if it ever happens (and lower level terrans arent known for their micro skills)." "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of DTs. Even one unnoticed dark templar basically ends pvt if there is no scan (while not having too much risk to protoss)." Is this good enough of a point? Exactly. Having to constantly dodge splash that might kill everything you have is basically every terran matchup. You lose games to a single storm, a single disruptor, a single tank shot, a single hit by a group of banelings.. You can also lose to a single dt, a single oracle, a single anything you get it right? Sc2 threads are so annoying. They should just stop patching the game and let people L2P intead of blaming the game until the game changes. Well played by innovation btw. He should be able to beat cure too. They are meeting in TSL tomorrow too, I guess they aren't gonna play any proper strategies? On the other side of the bracketTY - parting is hopefully gonna be wild. | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
Exactly. Having to constantly dodge splash that might kill everything you have is basically every terran matchup. You lose games to a single storm, a single disruptor, a single tank shot, a single hit by a group of banelings.. You can also lose to a single dt, a single oracle, a single anything you get it right? Sc2 threads are so annoying. They should just stop patching the game and let people L2P intead of blaming the game until the game changes. What are you talking about lol Terran is by far the best race in the game at coming back after taking a big hit. Thanks to MULEs, their peerless defensive capacity, and their unmatched unit efficiency. Terran can come back from situations that would be virtually impossible for Protoss and Zerg to do. That is a massive trait of the race. Everything you listed for Terran is significantly more unforgiving for Zerg - i mean just think about it the zerg units are inherently flimsier lol Zerg has no medivacs with hot pickups and healing after moving out, no turtling capacity, no MULEs, and much flimisier units making them far more susceptible to splash. Widow mines and Tanks delete zerg units in the blink of an eye and there is no safety net like Terran has. | ||
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Slydie
1913 Posts
On May 24 2020 07:46 BerserkSword wrote: What are you talking about lol Terran is by far the best race in the game at coming back after taking a big hit. Thanks to MULEs, their peerless defensive capacity, and their unmatched unit efficiency. Terran can come back from situations that would be virtually impossible for Protoss and Zerg to do. That is a massive trait of the race. Everything you listed for Terran is significantly more unforgiving for Zerg - i mean just think about it the zerg units are inherently flimsier lol Zerg has no medivacs with hot pickups and healing after moving out, no turtling capacity, no MULEs, and much flimisier units making them far more susceptible to splash. Widow mines and Tanks delete zerg units in the blink of an eye and there is no safety net like Terran has. Lol, the race bias is strong here! You could make exactly the same points at times when Zerg was undoubtly the best race at higher levels and won most tournaments. You can ask why there are 3 Terrans in the top 4, but afaik the last time that happened was in 2011, and there have been planty of GSLs with 0 Terrans in top 4 since then. Some adjustments in the maps and Zerg can bounce back easily even with nerfs. I see that drops are very good rn. Serral is also way ahead on the EU ladder, so it is not like Zerg does not have a chance even in the current balance state. | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On May 24 2020 14:43 Slydie wrote: Lol, the race bias is strong here! You could make exactly the same points at times when Zerg was undoubtly the best race at higher levels and won most tournaments. You can ask why there are 3 Terrans in the top 4, but afaik the last time that happened was in 2011, and there have been planty of GSLs with 0 Terrans in top 4 since then. Some adjustments in the maps and Zerg can bounce back easily even with nerfs. I see that drops are very good rn. Serral is also way ahead on the EU ladder, so it is not like Zerg does not have a chance even in the current balance state. There is no race bias here, I'm not talking about balance I'm talking about the design of terran. Zerg units (they are by design the flimsiest units in the game) are more susceptible to splash damage than Terran units for all the reasons I've listed. Terran more capable of comebacks more than the other races because of the race's hallmark attributes of survivability and efficiency, that's all I was saying in response to neptunuskfisk post who made it seem like only terran had to deal with splash and that terran is the worst comeback race | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2635 Posts
On May 25 2020 11:36 BerserkSword wrote: There is no race bias here, I'm not talking about balance I'm talking about the design of terran. Zerg units (they are by design the flimsiest units in the game) are more susceptible to splash damage than Terran units for all the reasons I've listed. Terran more capable of comebacks more than the other races because of the race's hallmark attributes of survivability and efficiency, that's all I was saying in response to neptunuskfisk post who made it seem like only terran had to deal with splash and that terran is the worst comeback race Terran has always been considered the weakes when it comes to comebacks because it has the worst macro mechanics when it comes to remaxis, thats why MULEs play an integral part of terran lategame, they need to make engagements manageable because WG and 200 larva can remax on the spot while terran has to builds is units and movement them across the map. Its also why tech switches are so uncommon and mostly used as off meta builds, you can't suddenly switch because you need the right building and addons compared to larva wich are incredibly efficient lategame. | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On May 25 2020 12:48 Lexender wrote: Terran has always been considered the weakes when it comes to comebacks because it has the worst macro mechanics when it comes to remaxis, thats why MULEs play an integral part of terran lategame, they need to make engagements manageable because WG and 200 larva can remax on the spot while terran has to builds is units and movement them across the map. Its also why tech switches are so uncommon and mostly used as off meta builds, you can't suddenly switch because you need the right building and addons compared to larva wich are incredibly efficient lategame. The fact that Protoss has warp-ins and Zerg has larva is offset by the fact that Terran units are far more versatile and efficient than their Protoss and Zerg counter parts. Combine that with mules and an unparalleled ability to defend and survive, and it's easy to understand why Terran is the best comeback race. Protoss is the race least capable of coming back imo. Terran is the only race that, after a massive loss, can reliably hunker down, macro up, and always have a shot to completely turn the tables, if not outright win, with devastating pushes/aggression. Terran doesn't need tech switches as much as Zerg does because Terran units are simply far better efficiency and versatility wise. You can fight a ling bane muta into ling bane ultra + corruptor with the same Marine, marauder, medivac, mine comp all game, for example, and trade well/better doing so. | ||
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Slydie
1913 Posts
On May 25 2020 14:38 BerserkSword wrote: The fact that Protoss has warp-ins and Zerg has larva is offset by the fact that Terran units are far more versatile and efficient than their Protoss and Zerg counter parts. Combine that with mules and an unparalleled ability to defend and survive, and it's easy to understand why Terran is the best comeback race. Protoss is the race least capable of coming back imo. Terran is the only race that, after a massive loss, can reliably hunker down, macro up, and always have a shot to completely turn the tables, if not outright win, with devastating pushes/aggression. Terran doesn't need tech switches as much as Zerg does because Terran units are simply far better efficiency and versatility wise. You can fight a ling bane muta into ling bane ultra + corruptor with the same Marine, marauder, medivac, mine comp all game, for example, and trade well/better doing so. Terran loses a dedicated push, it is by far the slowest to both reinforce and remax, and comebacks are very difficult. This is the reason why maps are so important, almost regardless of balance, Terran will have a very hard time killing a zerg on big, open maps. Any competent zerg will have the creep to surround and swallow any push before they can threaten a base. This works in almost any level of SC2. I don't feel like Terran is "the comeback race" at all, and I have not heard that claim much. The pro player most famous for comebacks currently is probably Dark, but I feel every race is about equal in this regard. | ||
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
On May 25 2020 15:38 Slydie wrote: Terran loses a dedicated push, it is by far the slowest to both reinforce and remax, and comebacks are very difficult. This is the reason why maps are so important, almost regardless of balance, Terran will have a very hard time killing a zerg on big, open maps. Any competent zerg will have the creep to surround and swallow any push before they can threaten a base. This works in almost any level of SC2. I don't feel like Terran is "the comeback race" at all, and I have not heard that claim much. The pro player most famous for comebacks currently is probably Dark, but I feel every race is about equal in this regard. It is hard to directly compare different races ability to make a comeback the way you two are discussing. At what Point in the game are we even talking about? Early in a game where a terran can hunker down on two base the defenive abilities of the race are high but as soon as you reach the Point where you need to take a third. If the terran is significantly behind how is he supposed to use his effective units to defend all his bases? There are the the hail mary doomdrops, drops everywhere or WM but thats it, Unless a Z makes ultras and charges into a fortified position. Personally I Think protoss has the best Tools for comebacks with recall, storms and disruptors but I think in the end its different in every game depending on what Tech the players are on and whats the situation is, In hots I feel terran was way ahead due to how poweful their mules were and how a lot of the fights happened earlier off of weaker economies. I remember players like Dream, Taeja, Maru and Polt most vividly making magical comebacks. | ||
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