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I guess all the good starcraft karma went in to the games on Wednesday. Oh well, looking forward to the semis.
2/2 bets btw
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On May 23 2020 16:11 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2020 15:56 temporary1 wrote:On May 23 2020 15:52 Luolis wrote:On May 23 2020 15:43 temporary1 wrote:On May 23 2020 15:34 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On May 23 2020 15:29 Fango wrote:On May 23 2020 15:27 Nebuchad wrote:On May 23 2020 15:25 Fango wrote:On May 23 2020 15:19 Elentos wrote:On May 23 2020 15:18 Fango wrote:
[quote]
Or the new sOs, or new Dear.
Seriously it's insane how much damage even the best protoss take to widow mines They just take almost no damage most games but of all the games we see the ones where they get rekt. Even at my level I have to do a lot of mine drops to get one that kills 12 workers. There's probably a memory bias sure, but the fact it happens so often to begin with is strange. Maybe players at lower ranks are just more likely to be watching their main base 90% of the time, whereas pros tend to go back to hit macro only. The terran is also executing better. The drop was invisible until last second and came from a weird angle. And despite that Trap was barely too late Anyone can execute a mine drop pretty much as well as the pros though. Lower level players are more likely to hit it later/fall behind in macro/not react to things elsewhere on the map, sure. But you could teach someone who doesn't play sc2 to click a medivac behind someones mineral line and boost it in. ...no? If someone can execute a mine drop as well as the pros then they wouldn't be a lower level player. Dropping mines isn't rocket science, but it's hardly as simple as that. There's burrowing/unburrowing, focus firing, spreading the mines, distracting the opponent and so on. Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of mine drop. Even one successful mine drop basically ends pvt if it happens in first 10 minutes (while not having too much risk to dropping terran), and this game just showed it does happen at the highest level too. It doesn't even matter if it comes 30 seconds or a minute later that it came in that game 5, results is pretty much the same. You're not serious right? Oh I am. You know you shouldn't post messages that have no content, right? I was gonna post "hahaha" but i thought that that would've been too much no content. You could make that point for so many units. Let me give you some examples "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of disruptors. Even one succesful disruptor hit basically ends pvt if it happens in the first 10 minutes (while not having too much risk to protoss)." "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of banelings. Even one succesful baneling hit basically ends zvt if it ever happens (and lower level terrans arent known for their micro skills)." "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of DTs. Even one unnoticed dark templar basically ends pvt if there is no scan (while not having too much risk to protoss)." Is this good enough of a point?
Exactly. Having to constantly dodge splash that might kill everything you have is basically every terran matchup.
You lose games to a single storm, a single disruptor, a single tank shot, a single hit by a group of banelings.. You can also lose to a single dt, a single oracle, a single anything you get it right? Sc2 threads are so annoying. They should just stop patching the game and let people L2P intead of blaming the game until the game changes.
Well played by innovation btw. He should be able to beat cure too. They are meeting in TSL tomorrow too, I guess they aren't gonna play any proper strategies? On the other side of the bracketTY - parting is hopefully gonna be wild.
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Exactly. Having to constantly dodge splash that might kill everything you have is basically every terran matchup.
You lose games to a single storm, a single disruptor, a single tank shot, a single hit by a group of banelings.. You can also lose to a single dt, a single oracle, a single anything you get it right? Sc2 threads are so annoying. They should just stop patching the game and let people L2P intead of blaming the game until the game changes.
What are you talking about lol
Terran is by far the best race in the game at coming back after taking a big hit. Thanks to MULEs, their peerless defensive capacity, and their unmatched unit efficiency.
Terran can come back from situations that would be virtually impossible for Protoss and Zerg to do. That is a massive trait of the race.
Everything you listed for Terran is significantly more unforgiving for Zerg - i mean just think about it the zerg units are inherently flimsier lol
Zerg has no medivacs with hot pickups and healing after moving out, no turtling capacity, no MULEs, and much flimisier units making them far more susceptible to splash. Widow mines and Tanks delete zerg units in the blink of an eye and there is no safety net like Terran has.
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On May 24 2020 07:46 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +
Exactly. Having to constantly dodge splash that might kill everything you have is basically every terran matchup.
You lose games to a single storm, a single disruptor, a single tank shot, a single hit by a group of banelings.. You can also lose to a single dt, a single oracle, a single anything you get it right? Sc2 threads are so annoying. They should just stop patching the game and let people L2P intead of blaming the game until the game changes.
What are you talking about lol Terran is by far the best race in the game at coming back after taking a big hit. Thanks to MULEs, their peerless defensive capacity, and their unmatched unit efficiency. Terran can come back from situations that would be virtually impossible for Protoss and Zerg to do. That is a massive trait of the race. Everything you listed for Terran is significantly more unforgiving for Zerg - i mean just think about it the zerg units are inherently flimsier lol Zerg has no medivacs with hot pickups and healing after moving out, no turtling capacity, no MULEs, and much flimisier units making them far more susceptible to splash. Widow mines and Tanks delete zerg units in the blink of an eye and there is no safety net like Terran has.
Lol, the race bias is strong here! You could make exactly the same points at times when Zerg was undoubtly the best race at higher levels and won most tournaments.
You can ask why there are 3 Terrans in the top 4, but afaik the last time that happened was in 2011, and there have been planty of GSLs with 0 Terrans in top 4 since then.
Some adjustments in the maps and Zerg can bounce back easily even with nerfs. I see that drops are very good rn.
Serral is also way ahead on the EU ladder, so it is not like Zerg does not have a chance even in the current balance state.
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On May 24 2020 14:43 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2020 07:46 BerserkSword wrote:
Exactly. Having to constantly dodge splash that might kill everything you have is basically every terran matchup.
You lose games to a single storm, a single disruptor, a single tank shot, a single hit by a group of banelings.. You can also lose to a single dt, a single oracle, a single anything you get it right? Sc2 threads are so annoying. They should just stop patching the game and let people L2P intead of blaming the game until the game changes.
What are you talking about lol Terran is by far the best race in the game at coming back after taking a big hit. Thanks to MULEs, their peerless defensive capacity, and their unmatched unit efficiency. Terran can come back from situations that would be virtually impossible for Protoss and Zerg to do. That is a massive trait of the race. Everything you listed for Terran is significantly more unforgiving for Zerg - i mean just think about it the zerg units are inherently flimsier lol Zerg has no medivacs with hot pickups and healing after moving out, no turtling capacity, no MULEs, and much flimisier units making them far more susceptible to splash. Widow mines and Tanks delete zerg units in the blink of an eye and there is no safety net like Terran has. Lol, the race bias is strong here! You could make exactly the same points at times when Zerg was undoubtly the best race at higher levels and won most tournaments. You can ask why there are 3 Terrans in the top 4, but afaik the last time that happened was in 2011, and there have been planty of GSLs with 0 Terrans in top 4 since then. Some adjustments in the maps and Zerg can bounce back easily even with nerfs. I see that drops are very good rn. Serral is also way ahead on the EU ladder, so it is not like Zerg does not have a chance even in the current balance state.
There is no race bias here, I'm not talking about balance I'm talking about the design of terran.
Zerg units (they are by design the flimsiest units in the game) are more susceptible to splash damage than Terran units for all the reasons I've listed. Terran more capable of comebacks more than the other races because of the race's hallmark attributes of survivability and efficiency, that's all I was saying in response to neptunuskfisk post who made it seem like only terran had to deal with splash and that terran is the worst comeback race
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On May 25 2020 11:36 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2020 14:43 Slydie wrote:On May 24 2020 07:46 BerserkSword wrote:
Exactly. Having to constantly dodge splash that might kill everything you have is basically every terran matchup.
You lose games to a single storm, a single disruptor, a single tank shot, a single hit by a group of banelings.. You can also lose to a single dt, a single oracle, a single anything you get it right? Sc2 threads are so annoying. They should just stop patching the game and let people L2P intead of blaming the game until the game changes.
What are you talking about lol Terran is by far the best race in the game at coming back after taking a big hit. Thanks to MULEs, their peerless defensive capacity, and their unmatched unit efficiency. Terran can come back from situations that would be virtually impossible for Protoss and Zerg to do. That is a massive trait of the race. Everything you listed for Terran is significantly more unforgiving for Zerg - i mean just think about it the zerg units are inherently flimsier lol Zerg has no medivacs with hot pickups and healing after moving out, no turtling capacity, no MULEs, and much flimisier units making them far more susceptible to splash. Widow mines and Tanks delete zerg units in the blink of an eye and there is no safety net like Terran has. Lol, the race bias is strong here! You could make exactly the same points at times when Zerg was undoubtly the best race at higher levels and won most tournaments. You can ask why there are 3 Terrans in the top 4, but afaik the last time that happened was in 2011, and there have been planty of GSLs with 0 Terrans in top 4 since then. Some adjustments in the maps and Zerg can bounce back easily even with nerfs. I see that drops are very good rn. Serral is also way ahead on the EU ladder, so it is not like Zerg does not have a chance even in the current balance state. There is no race bias here, I'm not talking about balance I'm talking about the design of terran. Zerg units (they are by design the flimsiest units in the game) are more susceptible to splash damage than Terran units for all the reasons I've listed. Terran more capable of comebacks more than the other races because of the race's hallmark attributes of survivability and efficiency, that's all I was saying in response to neptunuskfisk post who made it seem like only terran had to deal with splash and that terran is the worst comeback race
Terran has always been considered the weakes when it comes to comebacks because it has the worst macro mechanics when it comes to remaxis, thats why MULEs play an integral part of terran lategame, they need to make engagements manageable because WG and 200 larva can remax on the spot while terran has to builds is units and movement them across the map.
Its also why tech switches are so uncommon and mostly used as off meta builds, you can't suddenly switch because you need the right building and addons compared to larva wich are incredibly efficient lategame.
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On May 25 2020 12:48 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2020 11:36 BerserkSword wrote:On May 24 2020 14:43 Slydie wrote:On May 24 2020 07:46 BerserkSword wrote:
Exactly. Having to constantly dodge splash that might kill everything you have is basically every terran matchup.
You lose games to a single storm, a single disruptor, a single tank shot, a single hit by a group of banelings.. You can also lose to a single dt, a single oracle, a single anything you get it right? Sc2 threads are so annoying. They should just stop patching the game and let people L2P intead of blaming the game until the game changes.
What are you talking about lol Terran is by far the best race in the game at coming back after taking a big hit. Thanks to MULEs, their peerless defensive capacity, and their unmatched unit efficiency. Terran can come back from situations that would be virtually impossible for Protoss and Zerg to do. That is a massive trait of the race. Everything you listed for Terran is significantly more unforgiving for Zerg - i mean just think about it the zerg units are inherently flimsier lol Zerg has no medivacs with hot pickups and healing after moving out, no turtling capacity, no MULEs, and much flimisier units making them far more susceptible to splash. Widow mines and Tanks delete zerg units in the blink of an eye and there is no safety net like Terran has. Lol, the race bias is strong here! You could make exactly the same points at times when Zerg was undoubtly the best race at higher levels and won most tournaments. You can ask why there are 3 Terrans in the top 4, but afaik the last time that happened was in 2011, and there have been planty of GSLs with 0 Terrans in top 4 since then. Some adjustments in the maps and Zerg can bounce back easily even with nerfs. I see that drops are very good rn. Serral is also way ahead on the EU ladder, so it is not like Zerg does not have a chance even in the current balance state. There is no race bias here, I'm not talking about balance I'm talking about the design of terran. Zerg units (they are by design the flimsiest units in the game) are more susceptible to splash damage than Terran units for all the reasons I've listed. Terran more capable of comebacks more than the other races because of the race's hallmark attributes of survivability and efficiency, that's all I was saying in response to neptunuskfisk post who made it seem like only terran had to deal with splash and that terran is the worst comeback race Terran has always been considered the weakes when it comes to comebacks because it has the worst macro mechanics when it comes to remaxis, thats why MULEs play an integral part of terran lategame, they need to make engagements manageable because WG and 200 larva can remax on the spot while terran has to builds is units and movement them across the map. Its also why tech switches are so uncommon and mostly used as off meta builds, you can't suddenly switch because you need the right building and addons compared to larva wich are incredibly efficient lategame.
The fact that Protoss has warp-ins and Zerg has larva is offset by the fact that Terran units are far more versatile and efficient than their Protoss and Zerg counter parts. Combine that with mules and an unparalleled ability to defend and survive, and it's easy to understand why Terran is the best comeback race. Protoss is the race least capable of coming back imo.
Terran is the only race that, after a massive loss, can reliably hunker down, macro up, and always have a shot to completely turn the tables, if not outright win, with devastating pushes/aggression.
Terran doesn't need tech switches as much as Zerg does because Terran units are simply far better efficiency and versatility wise. You can fight a ling bane muta into ling bane ultra + corruptor with the same Marine, marauder, medivac, mine comp all game, for example, and trade well/better doing so.
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On May 25 2020 14:38 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2020 12:48 Lexender wrote:On May 25 2020 11:36 BerserkSword wrote:On May 24 2020 14:43 Slydie wrote:On May 24 2020 07:46 BerserkSword wrote:
Exactly. Having to constantly dodge splash that might kill everything you have is basically every terran matchup.
You lose games to a single storm, a single disruptor, a single tank shot, a single hit by a group of banelings.. You can also lose to a single dt, a single oracle, a single anything you get it right? Sc2 threads are so annoying. They should just stop patching the game and let people L2P intead of blaming the game until the game changes.
What are you talking about lol Terran is by far the best race in the game at coming back after taking a big hit. Thanks to MULEs, their peerless defensive capacity, and their unmatched unit efficiency. Terran can come back from situations that would be virtually impossible for Protoss and Zerg to do. That is a massive trait of the race. Everything you listed for Terran is significantly more unforgiving for Zerg - i mean just think about it the zerg units are inherently flimsier lol Zerg has no medivacs with hot pickups and healing after moving out, no turtling capacity, no MULEs, and much flimisier units making them far more susceptible to splash. Widow mines and Tanks delete zerg units in the blink of an eye and there is no safety net like Terran has. Lol, the race bias is strong here! You could make exactly the same points at times when Zerg was undoubtly the best race at higher levels and won most tournaments. You can ask why there are 3 Terrans in the top 4, but afaik the last time that happened was in 2011, and there have been planty of GSLs with 0 Terrans in top 4 since then. Some adjustments in the maps and Zerg can bounce back easily even with nerfs. I see that drops are very good rn. Serral is also way ahead on the EU ladder, so it is not like Zerg does not have a chance even in the current balance state. There is no race bias here, I'm not talking about balance I'm talking about the design of terran. Zerg units (they are by design the flimsiest units in the game) are more susceptible to splash damage than Terran units for all the reasons I've listed. Terran more capable of comebacks more than the other races because of the race's hallmark attributes of survivability and efficiency, that's all I was saying in response to neptunuskfisk post who made it seem like only terran had to deal with splash and that terran is the worst comeback race Terran has always been considered the weakes when it comes to comebacks because it has the worst macro mechanics when it comes to remaxis, thats why MULEs play an integral part of terran lategame, they need to make engagements manageable because WG and 200 larva can remax on the spot while terran has to builds is units and movement them across the map. Its also why tech switches are so uncommon and mostly used as off meta builds, you can't suddenly switch because you need the right building and addons compared to larva wich are incredibly efficient lategame. The fact that Protoss has warp-ins and Zerg has larva is offset by the fact that Terran units are far more versatile and efficient than their Protoss and Zerg counter parts. Combine that with mules and an unparalleled ability to defend and survive, and it's easy to understand why Terran is the best comeback race. Protoss is the race least capable of coming back imo. Terran is the only race that, after a massive loss, can reliably hunker down, macro up, and always have a shot to completely turn the tables, if not outright win, with devastating pushes/aggression. Terran doesn't need tech switches as much as Zerg does because Terran units are simply far better efficiency and versatility wise. You can fight a ling bane muta into ling bane ultra + corruptor with the same Marine, marauder, medivac, mine comp all game, for example, and trade well/better doing so.
Terran loses a dedicated push, it is by far the slowest to both reinforce and remax, and comebacks are very difficult. This is the reason why maps are so important, almost regardless of balance, Terran will have a very hard time killing a zerg on big, open maps. Any competent zerg will have the creep to surround and swallow any push before they can threaten a base. This works in almost any level of SC2.
I don't feel like Terran is "the comeback race" at all, and I have not heard that claim much. The pro player most famous for comebacks currently is probably Dark, but I feel every race is about equal in this regard.
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On May 25 2020 15:38 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2020 14:38 BerserkSword wrote:On May 25 2020 12:48 Lexender wrote:On May 25 2020 11:36 BerserkSword wrote:On May 24 2020 14:43 Slydie wrote:On May 24 2020 07:46 BerserkSword wrote:
Exactly. Having to constantly dodge splash that might kill everything you have is basically every terran matchup.
You lose games to a single storm, a single disruptor, a single tank shot, a single hit by a group of banelings.. You can also lose to a single dt, a single oracle, a single anything you get it right? Sc2 threads are so annoying. They should just stop patching the game and let people L2P intead of blaming the game until the game changes.
What are you talking about lol Terran is by far the best race in the game at coming back after taking a big hit. Thanks to MULEs, their peerless defensive capacity, and their unmatched unit efficiency. Terran can come back from situations that would be virtually impossible for Protoss and Zerg to do. That is a massive trait of the race. Everything you listed for Terran is significantly more unforgiving for Zerg - i mean just think about it the zerg units are inherently flimsier lol Zerg has no medivacs with hot pickups and healing after moving out, no turtling capacity, no MULEs, and much flimisier units making them far more susceptible to splash. Widow mines and Tanks delete zerg units in the blink of an eye and there is no safety net like Terran has. Lol, the race bias is strong here! You could make exactly the same points at times when Zerg was undoubtly the best race at higher levels and won most tournaments. You can ask why there are 3 Terrans in the top 4, but afaik the last time that happened was in 2011, and there have been planty of GSLs with 0 Terrans in top 4 since then. Some adjustments in the maps and Zerg can bounce back easily even with nerfs. I see that drops are very good rn. Serral is also way ahead on the EU ladder, so it is not like Zerg does not have a chance even in the current balance state. There is no race bias here, I'm not talking about balance I'm talking about the design of terran. Zerg units (they are by design the flimsiest units in the game) are more susceptible to splash damage than Terran units for all the reasons I've listed. Terran more capable of comebacks more than the other races because of the race's hallmark attributes of survivability and efficiency, that's all I was saying in response to neptunuskfisk post who made it seem like only terran had to deal with splash and that terran is the worst comeback race Terran has always been considered the weakes when it comes to comebacks because it has the worst macro mechanics when it comes to remaxis, thats why MULEs play an integral part of terran lategame, they need to make engagements manageable because WG and 200 larva can remax on the spot while terran has to builds is units and movement them across the map. Its also why tech switches are so uncommon and mostly used as off meta builds, you can't suddenly switch because you need the right building and addons compared to larva wich are incredibly efficient lategame. The fact that Protoss has warp-ins and Zerg has larva is offset by the fact that Terran units are far more versatile and efficient than their Protoss and Zerg counter parts. Combine that with mules and an unparalleled ability to defend and survive, and it's easy to understand why Terran is the best comeback race. Protoss is the race least capable of coming back imo. Terran is the only race that, after a massive loss, can reliably hunker down, macro up, and always have a shot to completely turn the tables, if not outright win, with devastating pushes/aggression. Terran doesn't need tech switches as much as Zerg does because Terran units are simply far better efficiency and versatility wise. You can fight a ling bane muta into ling bane ultra + corruptor with the same Marine, marauder, medivac, mine comp all game, for example, and trade well/better doing so. Terran loses a dedicated push, it is by far the slowest to both reinforce and remax, and comebacks are very difficult. This is the reason why maps are so important, almost regardless of balance, Terran will have a very hard time killing a zerg on big, open maps. Any competent zerg will have the creep to surround and swallow any push before they can threaten a base. This works in almost any level of SC2. I don't feel like Terran is "the comeback race" at all, and I have not heard that claim much. The pro player most famous for comebacks currently is probably Dark, but I feel every race is about equal in this regard.
It is hard to directly compare different races ability to make a comeback the way you two are discussing.
At what Point in the game are we even talking about? Early in a game where a terran can hunker down on two base the defenive abilities of the race are high but as soon as you reach the Point where you need to take a third. If the terran is significantly behind how is he supposed to use his effective units to defend all his bases?
There are the the hail mary doomdrops, drops everywhere or WM but thats it, Unless a Z makes ultras and charges into a fortified position.
Personally I Think protoss has the best Tools for comebacks with recall, storms and disruptors but I think in the end its different in every game depending on what Tech the players are on and whats the situation is,
In hots I feel terran was way ahead due to how poweful their mules were and how a lot of the fights happened earlier off of weaker economies. I remember players like Dream, Taeja, Maru and Polt most vividly making magical comebacks.
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EPT
