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On May 23 2020 15:46 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2020 15:45 darklycid wrote:Gotta say that even tho we have 3 terrans in the ro4 i don't think terran is op, they're riding a neat meta advantage currently imo. But some terrans still whine like their race is the weakest and in dire need of buffs, which i'd say is currently very much not the case  - I wish the power of the #TerranPatch and #TerranMaps actually reached my ladder games
I hear that mass Thor is "literally unbeatable" against Zerg.
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On May 23 2020 15:47 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2020 15:46 Elentos wrote:On May 23 2020 15:45 darklycid wrote:Gotta say that even tho we have 3 terrans in the ro4 i don't think terran is op, they're riding a neat meta advantage currently imo. But some terrans still whine like their race is the weakest and in dire need of buffs, which i'd say is currently very much not the case - I wish the power of the #TerranPatch and #TerranMaps actually reached my ladder games I hear that mass Thor is "literally unbeatable" against Zerg.
Can't confirm, have lost with it.
Most of my issues are TvP-related though.
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On May 23 2020 15:43 temporary1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2020 15:34 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On May 23 2020 15:29 Fango wrote:On May 23 2020 15:27 Nebuchad wrote:On May 23 2020 15:25 Fango wrote:On May 23 2020 15:19 Elentos wrote:On May 23 2020 15:18 Fango wrote:On May 23 2020 15:17 Waxangel wrote:Trap is definitely the new Stats.... in terms of losing probes to mines Or the new sOs, or new Dear. Seriously it's insane how much damage even the best protoss take to widow mines They just take almost no damage most games but of all the games we see the ones where they get rekt. Even at my level I have to do a lot of mine drops to get one that kills 12 workers. There's probably a memory bias sure, but the fact it happens so often to begin with is strange. Maybe players at lower ranks are just more likely to be watching their main base 90% of the time, whereas pros tend to go back to hit macro only. The terran is also executing better. The drop was invisible until last second and came from a weird angle. And despite that Trap was barely too late Anyone can execute a mine drop pretty much as well as the pros though. Lower level players are more likely to hit it later/fall behind in macro/not react to things elsewhere on the map, sure. But you could teach someone who doesn't play sc2 to click a medivac behind someones mineral line and boost it in. ...no? If someone can execute a mine drop as well as the pros then they wouldn't be a lower level player. Dropping mines isn't rocket science, but it's hardly as simple as that. There's burrowing/unburrowing, focus firing, spreading the mines, distracting the opponent and so on. Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of mine drop. Even one successful mine drop basically ends pvt if it happens in first 10 minutes (while not having too much risk to dropping terran), and this game just showed it does happen at the highest level too. It doesn't even matter if it comes 30 seconds or a minute later that it came in that game 5, results is pretty much the same.
You're not serious right?
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On May 23 2020 15:49 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2020 15:47 pvsnp wrote:On May 23 2020 15:46 Elentos wrote:On May 23 2020 15:45 darklycid wrote:Gotta say that even tho we have 3 terrans in the ro4 i don't think terran is op, they're riding a neat meta advantage currently imo. But some terrans still whine like their race is the weakest and in dire need of buffs, which i'd say is currently very much not the case - I wish the power of the #TerranPatch and #TerranMaps actually reached my ladder games I hear that mass Thor is "literally unbeatable" against Zerg. Can't confirm, have lost with it. Most of my issues are TvP-related though.
Think the most problems with terrans at the sub gm lvl is the multitasking kinda needed to play a bio game, which is why i think it's the strongest when terrans have stuff ready to compensate for that like turrets in the main vs prism (maybe even 1 more than neccessary), or a bunker at the third, so you can kinda focus on your army, or you just deal alot of dmg in the early game
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On May 23 2020 15:52 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2020 15:43 temporary1 wrote:On May 23 2020 15:34 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On May 23 2020 15:29 Fango wrote:On May 23 2020 15:27 Nebuchad wrote:On May 23 2020 15:25 Fango wrote:On May 23 2020 15:19 Elentos wrote:On May 23 2020 15:18 Fango wrote:On May 23 2020 15:17 Waxangel wrote:Trap is definitely the new Stats.... in terms of losing probes to mines Or the new sOs, or new Dear. Seriously it's insane how much damage even the best protoss take to widow mines They just take almost no damage most games but of all the games we see the ones where they get rekt. Even at my level I have to do a lot of mine drops to get one that kills 12 workers. There's probably a memory bias sure, but the fact it happens so often to begin with is strange. Maybe players at lower ranks are just more likely to be watching their main base 90% of the time, whereas pros tend to go back to hit macro only. The terran is also executing better. The drop was invisible until last second and came from a weird angle. And despite that Trap was barely too late Anyone can execute a mine drop pretty much as well as the pros though. Lower level players are more likely to hit it later/fall behind in macro/not react to things elsewhere on the map, sure. But you could teach someone who doesn't play sc2 to click a medivac behind someones mineral line and boost it in. ...no? If someone can execute a mine drop as well as the pros then they wouldn't be a lower level player. Dropping mines isn't rocket science, but it's hardly as simple as that. There's burrowing/unburrowing, focus firing, spreading the mines, distracting the opponent and so on. Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of mine drop. Even one successful mine drop basically ends pvt if it happens in first 10 minutes (while not having too much risk to dropping terran), and this game just showed it does happen at the highest level too. It doesn't even matter if it comes 30 seconds or a minute later that it came in that game 5, results is pretty much the same. You're not serious right?
Oh I am. You know you shouldn't post messages that have no content, right?
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If Trap won, my dream underdog Top 4. I really hope Cure takes it all and Jin Air takes him back after the GSL win. Poor guy has been grinding and contributing for years with nothing to show.
On May 23 2020 15:46 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2020 15:45 darklycid wrote:Gotta say that even tho we have 3 terrans in the ro4 i don't think terran is op, they're riding a neat meta advantage currently imo. But some terrans still whine like their race is the weakest and in dire need of buffs, which i'd say is currently very much not the case - I wish the power of the #TerranPatch and #TerranMaps actually reached my ladder games though and not just the pros I watch
It's all about the proxies. Just let 4 monster Terrans with crazy micro skew the entire race. Against opponents who play standard instead of anti proxy builds no less. For anyone else, it's a 90% chance of failure. I can't replicate what they do, but I have to bear the weight of their sins.
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On May 23 2020 15:53 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2020 15:49 Elentos wrote:On May 23 2020 15:47 pvsnp wrote:On May 23 2020 15:46 Elentos wrote:On May 23 2020 15:45 darklycid wrote:Gotta say that even tho we have 3 terrans in the ro4 i don't think terran is op, they're riding a neat meta advantage currently imo. But some terrans still whine like their race is the weakest and in dire need of buffs, which i'd say is currently very much not the case - I wish the power of the #TerranPatch and #TerranMaps actually reached my ladder games I hear that mass Thor is "literally unbeatable" against Zerg. Can't confirm, have lost with it. Most of my issues are TvP-related though. Think the most problems with terrans at the sub gm lvl is the multitasking kinda needed to play a bio game, which is why i think it's the strongest when terrans have stuff ready to compensate for that like turrets in the main vs prism (maybe even 1 more than neccessary), or a bunker at the third, so you can kinda focus on your army, or you just deal alot of dmg in the early game
I dunno somehow 1 more turret than necessary is often still one too few and the prism zips by
It's probably true about the mechanical requirements of bio though. I'd like to make it work cause it's fun but against players of my MMR mech works way better for me.
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Hope Blizz reconsiders it's balance changes once again - as they likely will do anyways regardless of GSL's results, though.
Feel like buffing terran (mines..) is not what is needed in the current meta.
Impressive to see 3/4 terrans in ro4, rooting for PartinG to not make it a mirror final.
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On May 23 2020 15:58 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2020 15:53 darklycid wrote:On May 23 2020 15:49 Elentos wrote:On May 23 2020 15:47 pvsnp wrote:On May 23 2020 15:46 Elentos wrote:On May 23 2020 15:45 darklycid wrote:Gotta say that even tho we have 3 terrans in the ro4 i don't think terran is op, they're riding a neat meta advantage currently imo. But some terrans still whine like their race is the weakest and in dire need of buffs, which i'd say is currently very much not the case - I wish the power of the #TerranPatch and #TerranMaps actually reached my ladder games I hear that mass Thor is "literally unbeatable" against Zerg. Can't confirm, have lost with it. Most of my issues are TvP-related though. Think the most problems with terrans at the sub gm lvl is the multitasking kinda needed to play a bio game, which is why i think it's the strongest when terrans have stuff ready to compensate for that like turrets in the main vs prism (maybe even 1 more than neccessary), or a bunker at the third, so you can kinda focus on your army, or you just deal alot of dmg in the early game I dunno somehow 1 more turret than necessary is often still one too few and the prism zips by It's probably true about the mechanical requirements of bio though. I'd like to make it work cause it's fun but against players of my MMR mech works way better for me.
Put a mine next to the turret 
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On May 23 2020 15:59 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2020 15:58 Elentos wrote:On May 23 2020 15:53 darklycid wrote:On May 23 2020 15:49 Elentos wrote:On May 23 2020 15:47 pvsnp wrote:On May 23 2020 15:46 Elentos wrote:On May 23 2020 15:45 darklycid wrote:Gotta say that even tho we have 3 terrans in the ro4 i don't think terran is op, they're riding a neat meta advantage currently imo. But some terrans still whine like their race is the weakest and in dire need of buffs, which i'd say is currently very much not the case - I wish the power of the #TerranPatch and #TerranMaps actually reached my ladder games I hear that mass Thor is "literally unbeatable" against Zerg. Can't confirm, have lost with it. Most of my issues are TvP-related though. Think the most problems with terrans at the sub gm lvl is the multitasking kinda needed to play a bio game, which is why i think it's the strongest when terrans have stuff ready to compensate for that like turrets in the main vs prism (maybe even 1 more than neccessary), or a bunker at the third, so you can kinda focus on your army, or you just deal alot of dmg in the early game I dunno somehow 1 more turret than necessary is often still one too few and the prism zips by It's probably true about the mechanical requirements of bio though. I'd like to make it work cause it's fun but against players of my MMR mech works way better for me. Put a mine next to the turret
Works sometimes but then that mine is either missing from my army or from their mineral line both of which I'm not okay with
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On May 23 2020 15:56 temporary1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2020 15:52 Luolis wrote:On May 23 2020 15:43 temporary1 wrote:On May 23 2020 15:34 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On May 23 2020 15:29 Fango wrote:On May 23 2020 15:27 Nebuchad wrote:On May 23 2020 15:25 Fango wrote:On May 23 2020 15:19 Elentos wrote:On May 23 2020 15:18 Fango wrote:On May 23 2020 15:17 Waxangel wrote:Trap is definitely the new Stats.... in terms of losing probes to mines Or the new sOs, or new Dear. Seriously it's insane how much damage even the best protoss take to widow mines They just take almost no damage most games but of all the games we see the ones where they get rekt. Even at my level I have to do a lot of mine drops to get one that kills 12 workers. There's probably a memory bias sure, but the fact it happens so often to begin with is strange. Maybe players at lower ranks are just more likely to be watching their main base 90% of the time, whereas pros tend to go back to hit macro only. The terran is also executing better. The drop was invisible until last second and came from a weird angle. And despite that Trap was barely too late Anyone can execute a mine drop pretty much as well as the pros though. Lower level players are more likely to hit it later/fall behind in macro/not react to things elsewhere on the map, sure. But you could teach someone who doesn't play sc2 to click a medivac behind someones mineral line and boost it in. ...no? If someone can execute a mine drop as well as the pros then they wouldn't be a lower level player. Dropping mines isn't rocket science, but it's hardly as simple as that. There's burrowing/unburrowing, focus firing, spreading the mines, distracting the opponent and so on. Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of mine drop. Even one successful mine drop basically ends pvt if it happens in first 10 minutes (while not having too much risk to dropping terran), and this game just showed it does happen at the highest level too. It doesn't even matter if it comes 30 seconds or a minute later that it came in that game 5, results is pretty much the same. You're not serious right? Oh I am. You know you shouldn't post messages that have no content, right?
I was gonna post "hahaha" but i thought that that would've been too much no content. You could make that point for so many units. Let me give you some examples
"Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of disruptors. Even one succesful disruptor hit basically ends pvt if it happens in the first 10 minutes (while not having too much risk to protoss)."
"Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of banelings. Even one succesful baneling hit basically ends zvt if it ever happens (and lower level terrans arent known for their micro skills)."
"Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of DTs. Even one unnoticed dark templar basically ends pvt if there is no scan (while not having too much risk to protoss)."
Is this good enough of a point?
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On May 23 2020 15:58 RoninKenshin wrote:If Trap won, my dream underdog Top 4. I really hope Cure takes it all and Jin Air takes him back after the GSL win. Poor guy has been grinding and contributing for years with nothing to show. Show nested quote +On May 23 2020 15:46 Elentos wrote:On May 23 2020 15:45 darklycid wrote:Gotta say that even tho we have 3 terrans in the ro4 i don't think terran is op, they're riding a neat meta advantage currently imo. But some terrans still whine like their race is the weakest and in dire need of buffs, which i'd say is currently very much not the case - I wish the power of the #TerranPatch and #TerranMaps actually reached my ladder games though and not just the pros I watch It's all about the proxies. Just let 4 monster Terrans with crazy micro skew the entire race. Against opponents who play standard instead of anti proxy builds no less. For anyone else, it's a 90% chance of failure. I can't replicate what they do, but I have to bear the weight of their sins.
The good ole "its not the race, it is terran players / only these x many players can do this in the world!" -thing that has been going on since 2010.
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On May 23 2020 16:11 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2020 15:56 temporary1 wrote:On May 23 2020 15:52 Luolis wrote:On May 23 2020 15:43 temporary1 wrote:On May 23 2020 15:34 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On May 23 2020 15:29 Fango wrote:On May 23 2020 15:27 Nebuchad wrote:On May 23 2020 15:25 Fango wrote:On May 23 2020 15:19 Elentos wrote:On May 23 2020 15:18 Fango wrote:
[quote]
Or the new sOs, or new Dear.
Seriously it's insane how much damage even the best protoss take to widow mines They just take almost no damage most games but of all the games we see the ones where they get rekt. Even at my level I have to do a lot of mine drops to get one that kills 12 workers. There's probably a memory bias sure, but the fact it happens so often to begin with is strange. Maybe players at lower ranks are just more likely to be watching their main base 90% of the time, whereas pros tend to go back to hit macro only. The terran is also executing better. The drop was invisible until last second and came from a weird angle. And despite that Trap was barely too late Anyone can execute a mine drop pretty much as well as the pros though. Lower level players are more likely to hit it later/fall behind in macro/not react to things elsewhere on the map, sure. But you could teach someone who doesn't play sc2 to click a medivac behind someones mineral line and boost it in. ...no? If someone can execute a mine drop as well as the pros then they wouldn't be a lower level player. Dropping mines isn't rocket science, but it's hardly as simple as that. There's burrowing/unburrowing, focus firing, spreading the mines, distracting the opponent and so on. Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of mine drop. Even one successful mine drop basically ends pvt if it happens in first 10 minutes (while not having too much risk to dropping terran), and this game just showed it does happen at the highest level too. It doesn't even matter if it comes 30 seconds or a minute later that it came in that game 5, results is pretty much the same. You're not serious right? Oh I am. You know you shouldn't post messages that have no content, right? I was gonna post "hahaha" but i thought that that would've been too much no content. You could make that point for so many units. Let me give you some examples "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of disruptors. Even one succesful disruptor hit basically ends pvt if it happens in the first 10 minutes (while not having too much risk to protoss)." "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of banelings. Even one succesful baneling hit basically ends zvt if it ever happens (and lower level terrans arent known for their micro skills)." "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of DTs. Even one unnoticed dark templar basically ends pvt if there is no scan (while not having too much risk to protoss)." Is this good enough of a point?
You are comparing apples to oranges. Protoss doing disruptor hit that makes the same impact would require a huge amount more resources and micro. Protoss would have to rush both disruptors and prism, robotics bay is 150/150, 2 disruptors are 300/300 to make it total of 450/450 deviation from "normal" tech path before 10 minutes compared to terran deviation of about 200/50 (if no deviation at all, defensive mines can be considered to be at normal tech path), would require way better micro to hit as efficiently as mines with their auto-targeting, and would expose protoss to counter attack that would likely end the game if those disruptors would be lost, to "oh well, lets go again then" scenario if terran loses drop.
Baneling bust and dt's are also not on standard builds. Later game all harrasment methods get more even, and their impact diminishes.
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On May 23 2020 15:59 c4rn wrote:
Hope Blizz reconsiders it's balance changes once again - as they likely will do anyways regardless of GSL's results, though.
Feel like buffing terran (mines..) is not what is needed in the current meta.
Impressive to see 3/4 terrans in ro4, rooting for PartinG to not make it a mirror final.
Sounds like wishful thinking to me. Also they said this:
Barring bug fixes, these will be the final changes reflected in the next balance patch, which is currently scheduled to be released in early June, after the finals of a few major tournaments.
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On May 23 2020 16:27 temporary1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2020 16:11 Luolis wrote:On May 23 2020 15:56 temporary1 wrote:On May 23 2020 15:52 Luolis wrote:On May 23 2020 15:43 temporary1 wrote:On May 23 2020 15:34 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On May 23 2020 15:29 Fango wrote:On May 23 2020 15:27 Nebuchad wrote:On May 23 2020 15:25 Fango wrote:On May 23 2020 15:19 Elentos wrote:
[quote]
They just take almost no damage most games but of all the games we see the ones where they get rekt. Even at my level I have to do a lot of mine drops to get one that kills 12 workers. There's probably a memory bias sure, but the fact it happens so often to begin with is strange. Maybe players at lower ranks are just more likely to be watching their main base 90% of the time, whereas pros tend to go back to hit macro only. The terran is also executing better. The drop was invisible until last second and came from a weird angle. And despite that Trap was barely too late Anyone can execute a mine drop pretty much as well as the pros though. Lower level players are more likely to hit it later/fall behind in macro/not react to things elsewhere on the map, sure. But you could teach someone who doesn't play sc2 to click a medivac behind someones mineral line and boost it in. ...no? If someone can execute a mine drop as well as the pros then they wouldn't be a lower level player. Dropping mines isn't rocket science, but it's hardly as simple as that. There's burrowing/unburrowing, focus firing, spreading the mines, distracting the opponent and so on. Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of mine drop. Even one successful mine drop basically ends pvt if it happens in first 10 minutes (while not having too much risk to dropping terran), and this game just showed it does happen at the highest level too. It doesn't even matter if it comes 30 seconds or a minute later that it came in that game 5, results is pretty much the same. You're not serious right? Oh I am. You know you shouldn't post messages that have no content, right? I was gonna post "hahaha" but i thought that that would've been too much no content. You could make that point for so many units. Let me give you some examples "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of disruptors. Even one succesful disruptor hit basically ends pvt if it happens in the first 10 minutes (while not having too much risk to protoss)." "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of banelings. Even one succesful baneling hit basically ends zvt if it ever happens (and lower level terrans arent known for their micro skills)." "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of DTs. Even one unnoticed dark templar basically ends pvt if there is no scan (while not having too much risk to protoss)." Is this good enough of a point? You are comparing apples to oranges. Protoss doing disruptor hit that makes the same impact would require a huge amount more resources and micro. Protoss would have to rush both disruptors and prism, robotics bay is 150/150, 2 disruptors are 300/300 to make it total of 450/450 deviation from "normal" tech path before 10 minutes compared to terran deviation of about 200/50 (if no deviation at all, defensive mines can be considered to be at normal tech path), would require way better micro to hit as efficiently as mines with their auto-targeting, and would expose protoss to counter attack that would likely end the game if those disruptors would be lost, to "oh well, lets go again then" scenario if terran loses drop. Baneling bust and dt's are also not on standard builds. Later game all harrasment methods get more even, and their impact diminishes.
My point still stands. Especially on a lower level one disruptor can effectively end the game in one shot (same thing that youre talking about with mines but multiplied).
I wasn't talking about a baneling bust, just banelings in general... My point with them was that if you get one lucky hit the game can just be over there and then.
As for DT's, no it's not a standard build but it's still a straight up gg moment if unscouted and hits at a bad timing.
What i was going for here is that on lower levels you can make the same point for literally every unit. If you truly believe that "worse players" are on a higher level than they should be because of "how efficient mine drops are", you are delusional.
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On May 23 2020 16:11 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2020 15:56 temporary1 wrote:On May 23 2020 15:52 Luolis wrote:On May 23 2020 15:43 temporary1 wrote:On May 23 2020 15:34 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On May 23 2020 15:29 Fango wrote:On May 23 2020 15:27 Nebuchad wrote:On May 23 2020 15:25 Fango wrote:On May 23 2020 15:19 Elentos wrote:On May 23 2020 15:18 Fango wrote:
[quote]
Or the new sOs, or new Dear.
Seriously it's insane how much damage even the best protoss take to widow mines They just take almost no damage most games but of all the games we see the ones where they get rekt. Even at my level I have to do a lot of mine drops to get one that kills 12 workers. There's probably a memory bias sure, but the fact it happens so often to begin with is strange. Maybe players at lower ranks are just more likely to be watching their main base 90% of the time, whereas pros tend to go back to hit macro only. The terran is also executing better. The drop was invisible until last second and came from a weird angle. And despite that Trap was barely too late Anyone can execute a mine drop pretty much as well as the pros though. Lower level players are more likely to hit it later/fall behind in macro/not react to things elsewhere on the map, sure. But you could teach someone who doesn't play sc2 to click a medivac behind someones mineral line and boost it in. ...no? If someone can execute a mine drop as well as the pros then they wouldn't be a lower level player. Dropping mines isn't rocket science, but it's hardly as simple as that. There's burrowing/unburrowing, focus firing, spreading the mines, distracting the opponent and so on. Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of mine drop. Even one successful mine drop basically ends pvt if it happens in first 10 minutes (while not having too much risk to dropping terran), and this game just showed it does happen at the highest level too. It doesn't even matter if it comes 30 seconds or a minute later that it came in that game 5, results is pretty much the same. You're not serious right? Oh I am. You know you shouldn't post messages that have no content, right? I was gonna post "hahaha" but i thought that that would've been too much no content. You could make that point for so many units. Let me give you some examples "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of disruptors. Even one succesful disruptor hit basically ends pvt if it happens in the first 10 minutes (while not having too much risk to protoss)." "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of banelings. Even one succesful baneling hit basically ends zvt if it ever happens (and lower level terrans arent known for their micro skills)." "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of DTs. Even one unnoticed dark templar basically ends pvt if there is no scan (while not having too much risk to protoss)." Is this good enough of a point?
A disruptor in the first 10 minutes of the game is nowhere near as good as mine drops are in TvP.
First of all, early disruptors mean that youre going to be lacking in a better early game AOE unit.
Second of all, if a disruptor nova whiffs in an earlier engagement, the Protoss pretty much dies. And it whiffs often at this point because the armies are not that large and the engagements not that many, so it's easy to dodge a nova and just maul the protoss army to death.
Compare that to widow mine drops - they are so effective that it doesnt even matter if the first or second ones dont do anything. The Terran player can easily survive and macro out of it almost like nothing happene.d
Banelings are a zerg's attempt to trade gas units for mineral units that can even beat banelings if used properly.
I don't think there's quite anything like a TvP widow mine drop in the game. I think it's terrible design. We are talking dudes named "shield of aiur" losing double digit workers to them, and Terran economy is so strong that when it happens it's basically GG for protoss.
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On May 23 2020 16:42 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2020 16:11 Luolis wrote:On May 23 2020 15:56 temporary1 wrote:On May 23 2020 15:52 Luolis wrote:On May 23 2020 15:43 temporary1 wrote:On May 23 2020 15:34 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On May 23 2020 15:29 Fango wrote:On May 23 2020 15:27 Nebuchad wrote:On May 23 2020 15:25 Fango wrote:On May 23 2020 15:19 Elentos wrote:
[quote]
They just take almost no damage most games but of all the games we see the ones where they get rekt. Even at my level I have to do a lot of mine drops to get one that kills 12 workers. There's probably a memory bias sure, but the fact it happens so often to begin with is strange. Maybe players at lower ranks are just more likely to be watching their main base 90% of the time, whereas pros tend to go back to hit macro only. The terran is also executing better. The drop was invisible until last second and came from a weird angle. And despite that Trap was barely too late Anyone can execute a mine drop pretty much as well as the pros though. Lower level players are more likely to hit it later/fall behind in macro/not react to things elsewhere on the map, sure. But you could teach someone who doesn't play sc2 to click a medivac behind someones mineral line and boost it in. ...no? If someone can execute a mine drop as well as the pros then they wouldn't be a lower level player. Dropping mines isn't rocket science, but it's hardly as simple as that. There's burrowing/unburrowing, focus firing, spreading the mines, distracting the opponent and so on. Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of mine drop. Even one successful mine drop basically ends pvt if it happens in first 10 minutes (while not having too much risk to dropping terran), and this game just showed it does happen at the highest level too. It doesn't even matter if it comes 30 seconds or a minute later that it came in that game 5, results is pretty much the same. You're not serious right? Oh I am. You know you shouldn't post messages that have no content, right? I was gonna post "hahaha" but i thought that that would've been too much no content. You could make that point for so many units. Let me give you some examples "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of disruptors. Even one succesful disruptor hit basically ends pvt if it happens in the first 10 minutes (while not having too much risk to protoss)." "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of banelings. Even one succesful baneling hit basically ends zvt if it ever happens (and lower level terrans arent known for their micro skills)." "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of DTs. Even one unnoticed dark templar basically ends pvt if there is no scan (while not having too much risk to protoss)." Is this good enough of a point? A disruptor in the first 10 minutes of the game is nowhere near as good as mine drops are in TvP. First of all, early disruptors mean that youre going to be lacking in a better early game AOE unit. Second of all, if a disruptor nova whiffs in an earlier engagement, the Protoss pretty much dies. And it whiffs often at this point because the armies are not that large and the engagements not that many, so it's easy to dodge a nova and just maul the protoss army to death. Compare that to widow mine drops - they are so effective that it doesnt even matter if the first or second ones dont do anything. The Terran player can easily survive and macro out of it almost like nothing happene.d Banelings are a zerg's attempt to trade gas units for mineral units that can even beat banelings if used properly. I don't think there's quite anything like a TvP widow mine drop in the game. I think it's terrible design. We are talking dudes named "shield of aiur" losing double digit workers to them, and Terran economy is so strong that when it happens it's basically GG for protoss.
Read my later message...
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On May 23 2020 16:42 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2020 16:11 Luolis wrote:On May 23 2020 15:56 temporary1 wrote:On May 23 2020 15:52 Luolis wrote:On May 23 2020 15:43 temporary1 wrote:On May 23 2020 15:34 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On May 23 2020 15:29 Fango wrote:On May 23 2020 15:27 Nebuchad wrote:On May 23 2020 15:25 Fango wrote:On May 23 2020 15:19 Elentos wrote:
[quote]
They just take almost no damage most games but of all the games we see the ones where they get rekt. Even at my level I have to do a lot of mine drops to get one that kills 12 workers. There's probably a memory bias sure, but the fact it happens so often to begin with is strange. Maybe players at lower ranks are just more likely to be watching their main base 90% of the time, whereas pros tend to go back to hit macro only. The terran is also executing better. The drop was invisible until last second and came from a weird angle. And despite that Trap was barely too late Anyone can execute a mine drop pretty much as well as the pros though. Lower level players are more likely to hit it later/fall behind in macro/not react to things elsewhere on the map, sure. But you could teach someone who doesn't play sc2 to click a medivac behind someones mineral line and boost it in. ...no? If someone can execute a mine drop as well as the pros then they wouldn't be a lower level player. Dropping mines isn't rocket science, but it's hardly as simple as that. There's burrowing/unburrowing, focus firing, spreading the mines, distracting the opponent and so on. Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of mine drop. Even one successful mine drop basically ends pvt if it happens in first 10 minutes (while not having too much risk to dropping terran), and this game just showed it does happen at the highest level too. It doesn't even matter if it comes 30 seconds or a minute later that it came in that game 5, results is pretty much the same. You're not serious right? Oh I am. You know you shouldn't post messages that have no content, right? I was gonna post "hahaha" but i thought that that would've been too much no content. You could make that point for so many units. Let me give you some examples "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of disruptors. Even one succesful disruptor hit basically ends pvt if it happens in the first 10 minutes (while not having too much risk to protoss)." "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of banelings. Even one succesful baneling hit basically ends zvt if it ever happens (and lower level terrans arent known for their micro skills)." "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of DTs. Even one unnoticed dark templar basically ends pvt if there is no scan (while not having too much risk to protoss)." Is this good enough of a point? A disruptor in the first 10 minutes of the game is nowhere near as good as mine drops are in TvP. First of all, early disruptors mean that youre going to be lacking in a better early game AOE unit. Second of all, if a disruptor nova whiffs in an earlier engagement, the Protoss pretty much dies. And it whiffs often at this point because the armies are not that large and the engagements not that many, so it's easy to dodge a nova and just maul the protoss army to death. Compare that to widow mine drops - they are so effective that it doesnt even matter if the first or second ones dont do anything. The Terran player can easily survive and macro out of it almost like nothing happene.d Banelings are a zerg's attempt to trade gas units for mineral units that can even beat banelings if used properly. I don't think there's quite anything like a TvP widow mine drop in the game. I think it's terrible design. We are talking dudes named "shield of aiur" losing double digit workers to them, and Terran economy is so strong that when it happens it's basically GG for protoss.
The guy nicknamed "Shield of Aiur" is literally so famous for losing probes to widow and spider mines that they turned his name into a meme. 머-엽, or getting Stats'd.
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Come on, after seeing so many whiffed minedrops lately, I was shocked how Trap lost 17 probes to the most standard TvP opener there is. Sure, Innovation did some tricks to confuse him, but it was still unforgivable, similar to not lifting a depot or smth.
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On May 23 2020 16:34 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2020 16:27 temporary1 wrote:On May 23 2020 16:11 Luolis wrote:On May 23 2020 15:56 temporary1 wrote:On May 23 2020 15:52 Luolis wrote:On May 23 2020 15:43 temporary1 wrote:On May 23 2020 15:34 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On May 23 2020 15:29 Fango wrote:On May 23 2020 15:27 Nebuchad wrote:On May 23 2020 15:25 Fango wrote:
[quote]
There's probably a memory bias sure, but the fact it happens so often to begin with is strange. Maybe players at lower ranks are just more likely to be watching their main base 90% of the time, whereas pros tend to go back to hit macro only. The terran is also executing better. The drop was invisible until last second and came from a weird angle. And despite that Trap was barely too late Anyone can execute a mine drop pretty much as well as the pros though. Lower level players are more likely to hit it later/fall behind in macro/not react to things elsewhere on the map, sure. But you could teach someone who doesn't play sc2 to click a medivac behind someones mineral line and boost it in. ...no? If someone can execute a mine drop as well as the pros then they wouldn't be a lower level player. Dropping mines isn't rocket science, but it's hardly as simple as that. There's burrowing/unburrowing, focus firing, spreading the mines, distracting the opponent and so on. Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of mine drop. Even one successful mine drop basically ends pvt if it happens in first 10 minutes (while not having too much risk to dropping terran), and this game just showed it does happen at the highest level too. It doesn't even matter if it comes 30 seconds or a minute later that it came in that game 5, results is pretty much the same. You're not serious right? Oh I am. You know you shouldn't post messages that have no content, right? I was gonna post "hahaha" but i thought that that would've been too much no content. You could make that point for so many units. Let me give you some examples "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of disruptors. Even one succesful disruptor hit basically ends pvt if it happens in the first 10 minutes (while not having too much risk to protoss)." "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of banelings. Even one succesful baneling hit basically ends zvt if it ever happens (and lower level terrans arent known for their micro skills)." "Maybe some of players that would be lower level aren't lower level because of efficiency of DTs. Even one unnoticed dark templar basically ends pvt if there is no scan (while not having too much risk to protoss)." Is this good enough of a point? You are comparing apples to oranges. Protoss doing disruptor hit that makes the same impact would require a huge amount more resources and micro. Protoss would have to rush both disruptors and prism, robotics bay is 150/150, 2 disruptors are 300/300 to make it total of 450/450 deviation from "normal" tech path before 10 minutes compared to terran deviation of about 200/50 (if no deviation at all, defensive mines can be considered to be at normal tech path), would require way better micro to hit as efficiently as mines with their auto-targeting, and would expose protoss to counter attack that would likely end the game if those disruptors would be lost, to "oh well, lets go again then" scenario if terran loses drop. Baneling bust and dt's are also not on standard builds. Later game all harrasment methods get more even, and their impact diminishes. My point still stands. Especially on a lower level one disruptor can effectively end the game in one shot (same thing that youre talking about with mines but multiplied). I wasn't talking about a baneling bust, just banelings in general... My point with them was that if you get one lucky hit the game can just be over there and then. As for DT's, no it's not a standard build but it's still a straight up gg moment if unscouted and hits at a bad timing. What i was going for here is that on lower levels you can make the same point for literally every unit. If you truly believe that "worse players" are on a higher level than they should be because of "how efficient mine drops are", you are delusional.
Except that it doesn't stand. I don't know how much you have been playing at lower level. But said rushing to disruptors to try to do one hit or miss attack that can lose you the game is not s way to go at lower level. Also disruptors are way too complicated to control for lower level players that they probably aren't on lower level players tech paths.
Banelings in early game are somewhat comparable but I believe they still require more dedicated approach and more opportunity cost than mines that require no additional planning.
DTs hardly compare. First of all they are not at PvT standard build. Secondly they don't win a game within seconds. All races should have detection in their standard build anyways so those shouldn't even be a problem. Back in the days when detection wasn't as easy to have as it is today, even then even DT rush wasn't autowin as missed minedrop effectively is today.
As I implied, late game harrassment is less impactful and therefore more balanced between races. But you won't get to late game if you lose the game before 10 mins is full because you had late reaction to one minedrop.
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