Innovation - Serral gonna be SICK Honestly, every single one of these Ro8 Matches gonna be SICK Also, the CSS work on this post is SICK. Cheers! And thanks for the content.
MaNa making it this far is surprising. I know it's HomeStory Cup so people are having fun, possibly playing drunk, but MaNa hasn't been shown much all year and WHAM! Can't wait for the games!
Inno's reaction time and accuracy is not the same as it was 2 years ago, i don't think he can take down Serral now. Tbh i think despite all the hype, the last day will be one sided with Serral or Reynor winning the whole thing. They are the only real tournament contenders here.
On November 24 2019 14:53 parksonsc wrote: Inno's reaction time and accuracy is not the same as it was 2 years ago, i don't think he can take down Serral now. Tbh i think despite all the hype, the last day will be one sided with Serral or Reynor winning the whole thing. They are the only real tournament contenders here.
Agreed on the inno thing, but maybe zest has a few tricks up his sleeve to be competitive with serral/reynor during the series
On November 24 2019 16:57 Musicus wrote: Good news, since they are using their own HSC mod that combines the PTR and the WCS observing mod the Viper abduct could be fixed.
All thanks to Ahli who combined the balance and observing mod and now fixed the abduct bug!!!
On November 24 2019 16:57 Musicus wrote: Good news, since they are using their own HSC mod that combines the PTR and the WCS observing mod the Viper abduct could be fixed.
All thanks to Ahli who combined the balance and observing mod and now fixed the abduct bug!!!
Lol yes, of course they fixed it. HSC is the best. Later today, TaKe is going to announce WCS 2020-2025 and exemption from military for starcraft progamers, plus the return of kespa teams
On November 24 2019 16:57 Musicus wrote: Good news, since they are using their own HSC mod that combines the PTR and the WCS observing mod the Viper abduct could be fixed.
All thanks to Ahli who combined the balance and observing mod and now fixed the abduct bug!!!
Lol yes, of course they fixed it. HSC is the best. Later today, TaKe is going to announce WCS 2020-2025 and exemption from military for starcraft progamers, plus the return of kespa teams
"We here at TaKeTV discussed with the CEO of Korean esports and decided to disband the LCK and bring back OSL/MSL plus SSL for SC2. All it took was one phone call really."
The Viper bug being fixed is super huge. I don't think it would have had a massive impact on Serral vs INno since INno isn't really a BC opener type of guy.
Kinda disappointed in Mana's plan there. He knew it was SH+Nydus, but was really sluggish in preparing against it. I know Thunderbird is super good for the style but the nydus places are pretty obvious and he already knows Solar's timings if he studied the Stats' games so he could've prepared accordingly. It looked like he was trying to counter it but he didn't actually have a well optimised response.
On November 24 2019 19:59 blooblooblahblah wrote: Kinda disappointed in Mana's plan there. He knew it was SH+Nydus, but was really sluggish in preparing against it. I know Thunderbird is super good for the style but the nydus places are pretty obvious and he already knows Solar's timings if he studied the Stats' games so he could've prepared accordingly. It looked like he was trying to counter it but he didn't actually have a well optimised response.
On November 24 2019 18:40 sneakyfox wrote: Thanks for the thread Pande!
On November 24 2019 16:57 Musicus wrote: Good news, since they are using their own HSC mod that combines the PTR and the WCS observing mod the Viper abduct could be fixed.
All thanks to Ahli who combined the balance and observing mod and now fixed the abduct bug!!!
Lol yes, of course they fixed it. HSC is the best. Later today, TaKe is going to announce WCS 2020-2025 and exemption from military for starcraft progamers, plus the return of kespa teams
"We here at TaKeTV discussed with the CEO of Korean esports and decided to disband the LCK and bring back OSL/MSL plus SSL for SC2. All it took was one phone call really."
On November 24 2019 20:26 sneakyfox wrote: Btw Elentos, are the best games lists from October and November coming at some point? Or has blord/infestor been too tough to swallow?
On November 24 2019 20:26 sneakyfox wrote: Btw Elentos, are the best games lists from October and November coming at some point? Or has blord/infestor been too tough to swallow?
I heard he's too busy saving koalas in Australia
Saving koalas instead of starcraft? Koalas > SC2 confirmed? Oh man we just got demoted again.
On November 24 2019 20:26 sneakyfox wrote: Btw Elentos, are the best games lists from October and November coming at some point? Or has blord/infestor been too tough to swallow?
I heard he's too busy saving koalas in Australia
Saving koalas instead of starcraft? Koalas > SC2 confirmed? Oh man we just got demoted again.
On November 24 2019 20:57 Akio wrote: Nice defensive, safe play from Trap
I mean they're saying that but honestly I'd almost consider that a semi-all in if you're delaying probes past 50 and getting your third that late. Feels more like a 'colossi timing' style that needs to get pretty good damage if you want to macro out of it, but it's working very well this tournament
On November 24 2019 20:57 Akio wrote: Nice defensive, safe play from Trap
I mean they're saying that but honestly I'd almost consider that a semi-all in if you're delaying probes past 50 and getting your third that late. Feels more like a 'colossi timing' style that needs to get pretty good damage if you want to macro out of it, but it's working very well this tournament
Pretty close series, feels like Trap played better than his first series against Cure, and Cure maybe played a little worse. Some iffy decisions here and there and very scrappy games.
I really wish SC2HL would make highlights about the most impressive commercial breaks from HSC. Some presentations are both funny and awkward. Btw great event, much much better than Blizzcon.
i like Winter when he's asking questions but when he makes assertive statements on the game like he knows better than the pros he's on the couch with, i can't take him seriously. know your role.
On November 24 2019 22:12 Schelim wrote: looks like i returned from my run at the right time :D
GG Trap, was rooting for Cure to win the whole tournament :/
Are you DieuCure?
i am not. but i like rooting for the "smaller" Korean Terrans cause they tend to be amazing players that are often overlooked. Bunny, KeeN, ByuN before he turned Super Saiyan (still loved him after ofc), Gumigod, Ryung, Cure...
On November 24 2019 22:12 Schelim wrote: looks like i returned from my run at the right time :D
GG Trap, was rooting for Cure to win the whole tournament :/
Are you DieuCure?
i am not. but i like rooting for the "smaller" Korean Terrans cause they tend to be amazing players that are often overlooked. Bunny, KeeN, ByuN before he turned Super Saiyan (still loved him after ofc), Gumigod, Ryung, Cure...
Because BCS exist, the only viable ZvT is mass queen mass drones. Anything else auto dies against 2 starport bcs...unless you all in them before but if they live...gg...
I dont like how terran has so many openings against zerg but zerg is pretty much forced to mass queens and drones on 3 base everygame. Very hard to make any aggressive build work because of possibility of bcs.
On November 24 2019 22:41 HeroSandro wrote: Surprising that Serral did not just go 5-6 spores immediately.
I dont think spores alone are enough against that many bcs
On November 24 2019 22:41 HeroSandro wrote: Surprising that Serral did not just go 5-6 spores immediately.
I feel like if he didn't make those extra rounds of lings, Inno would've stabilised on 2 base much easier and Serral still would've had a tough time due to the position of the third he had. He just didn't do enough damage with the all in and Inno managed to wall off his main in time for the second round. I don't think there was a good chance to go macro in that game unless he killed literally all the scvs. Inno micro'd very well and retained a very decent scv count considering the circumstance.
On November 24 2019 22:41 HeroSandro wrote: Surprising that Serral did not just go 5-6 spores immediately.
Would have needed them immediately and everywhere tbh. Spores aren't that good vs BCs, you need a critical mass of Queens and never let the terran have many BCs without getting other solutions because otherwise both Queens and Spores can get Yamatoed quite badly.
1 question. Special and uthermal had 9:5 map score in group D. They played 1:1 in gropus. Without tiebreakers, special got in WB and uThernal in LB. Why?
Also that game really showed how much better ZvT is when there's no overlord speed cos it actually lets Terran dictate play and create mind games. A lot of that game was won strategically in the first 6 minutes.
On November 24 2019 23:02 JanDe wrote: 1 question. Special and uthermal had 9:5 map score in group D. They played 1:1 in gropus. Without tiebreakers, special got in WB and uThernal in LB. Why?
it was a 3-way tie with showtime in there as well, and special won vs showtime while the other games were draws
On November 24 2019 23:02 JanDe wrote: 1 question. Special and uthermal had 9:5 map score in group D. They played 1:1 in gropus. Without tiebreakers, special got in WB and uThernal in LB. Why?
it was a 3-way tie with showtime in there as well, and special won vs showtime while the other games were draws
I don't know why people want Serral to play Maru so bad. It's Innovation who has the true rivalry with Serral. From Innovation beating Serral at the WESG finals last year for over 100K grand prize that went to 7 games, to all the other 7 game series between Innovation and Serral, I think one of Serral's biggest rival is Innovation.
On November 24 2019 23:10 HolydaKing wrote: Deserved win, Serral wasn't good enough. I think Reynor has better chances in ZvT, so I hope he wins against Zest.
Honestly pretty unlucky series for Serral, he got the short end of the mind game stick in most of those games, sans Game 4.
That was well played by Winnovation. It would even be one enjoyable series if people could avoid to mindlessly commenting about Inno being superior while playing at 10% of his power or how much of a patchzerg Serral is -_-
On November 24 2019 23:12 xelnaga_empire wrote: I don't know why people want Serral to play Maru so bad. It's Innovation who has the true rivalry with Serral. From Innovation beating Serral at the WESG finals last year for over 100K grand prize that went to 7 games, to all the other 7 game series between Innovation and Serral, I think one of Serral's biggest rival is Innovation.
There have only been 2 best of 7 matches between Inno and Serral. Because if you haven't noticed, while Serral was on top of the world for the last 2 years Inno has been sitting in the middle of the pack of the Korean scene.
Kept getting distracted at the wrong times. Did Inno win the game where he went 2-port BC and lost a ton of workers early? Nvm just saw highlight reel. Wow...
On November 24 2019 23:15 swarminfestor wrote: Innovation was great. If his controls were much better, we could see perfect games from him like the one vs Taeja a long time ago.
On November 24 2019 23:15 swarminfestor wrote: Innovation was great. If his controls were much better, we could see perfect games from him like the one vs Taeja a long time ago.
On November 24 2019 23:15 tskarzyn wrote: Kept getting distracted at the wrong times. Did Inno win the game where he went 2-port BC and lost a ton of workers early?
On November 24 2019 23:15 tskarzyn wrote: Kept getting distracted at the wrong times. Did Inno win the game where he went 2-port BC and lost a ton of workers early?
Yes his BC counterattack was unstoppable with what Serral had at that point.
On November 24 2019 23:09 Elentos wrote: I like how this series was hardly affected by the patch at all.
You don't seem to realize the importance of the creep nerf. Neither how thor counter muta now
Thor vs muta didn't get changed in a way that impacted this match at all. And I don't think ability to cancel creep tumors would have changed that much. Series could have gone exactly the same way without the patch.
On November 24 2019 23:15 swarminfestor wrote: Innovation was great. If his controls were much better, we could see perfect games from him like the one vs Taeja a long time ago.
a perfect game which he lost?
I didn't think Serral can outmatched him during that time.
On November 24 2019 23:15 swarminfestor wrote: Innovation was great. If his controls were much better, we could see perfect games from him like the one vs Taeja a long time ago.
a perfect game which he lost?
I didn't think Serral can outmatched him during that time.
I think he is refering to a famous tvt game they played in 2013. (Taeja/inno)
On November 24 2019 23:21 sneakyfox wrote: Oh, it's Serral vs Trap.
Trap beat Solar in groups, maybe he can hang with Serral for a bit now.
Yeah, hope so. He has looked like he needed to warm up both yesterday and today. It's definitely more fun to see that match than Serral v Solar imo. And we still could get that later anyway.
On November 24 2019 23:09 Elentos wrote: I like how this series was hardly affected by the patch at all.
You don't seem to realize the importance of the creep nerf. Neither how thor counter muta now
Thor vs muta didn't get changed in a way that impacted this match at all. And I don't think ability to cancel creep tumors would have changed that much. Series could have gone exactly the same way without the patch.
Yeah, you can't blame the patch at all. Innovation just cut all the right corners, and all his builds worked out extremely well in every single game (including the one he lost). The only thing is maybe in the previous patch, Serral would've gone OL speed on disco, which maybe would've prevented him from getting completely bamboozled by the opening, which forced him to make roach muta with awfully slow upgrades and awfully slow bane speed. He made a good game out of it but that was a pretty crappy position to be in from the start.
On November 24 2019 23:21 sneakyfox wrote: Oh, it's Serral vs Trap.
Trap beat Solar in groups, maybe he can hang with Serral for a bit now.
It will be interesting nevertheless but I would have preferred to see Serral vs Solar.
I guess we all like it when our favorite players get easy wins.
If anything, their respective match record says otherwise; also, the last time Serral played Solar was at Katowice whereas we had Serral vs Trap at GSL vs the World.
On November 24 2019 23:13 Xain0n wrote: That was well played by Winnovation. It would even be one enjoyable series if people could avoid to mindlessly commenting about Inno being superior while playing at 10% of his power or how much of a patchzerg Serral is -_-
Serral just used 10% of his skills that's why he lost.
On November 24 2019 23:21 sneakyfox wrote: Oh, it's Serral vs Trap.
Trap beat Solar in groups, maybe he can hang with Serral for a bit now.
It will be interesting nevertheless but I would have preferred to see Serral vs Solar.
I guess we all like it when our favorite players get easy wins.
If anything, their respective match record says otherwise; also, the last time Serral played Solar was at Katowice whereas we had Serral vs Trap at GSL vs the World.
I'm just not convinced by Solar's ZvZ at all. 0-2 vs TLO didn't help that either.
I don't know how the Zest who plays perfectly for like 8 minutes and the Zest who fucks up a game with 1 sloppy engage can possibly be the same person.
Also I feel like I've seen this before at a HSC where Zest just inexplicably made mass archons from DTs against a Zerg (I think on Abyssal Reef) and then getting rolled by banes.
On November 24 2019 23:36 Elentos wrote: I don't know how the Zest who plays perfectly for like 8 minutes and the Zest who fucks up a game with 1 sloppy engage can possibly be the same person.
I don't know how the herO who fucks up a game for like 8 minutes and the herO who plays perfectly for like 1 minute can possibly be the same person.
sorry for off-topic, i just noticed that ever since i started cooking and now eating i'm not paying any fucking attention to the stream even though i want to
I'm the last person to ask for protoss buffs (you can call me a hater), but why are stargate units revealed during production? Hated this feature in WoL and still hate it today.
On November 25 2019 00:00 sudete wrote: What's the point of getting motherships anyway
Having your army cloaked so it's much harder for BL attacks, abducts, etc? You have to babysit it a lot, of course, but they're game-winning potentially. Or at least insurance against losing.
On November 25 2019 00:03 SamirDuran wrote: Heroics unit should never be abducted. Lategame pvz is still unplayable
lol just wait until a protoss who's actually competent at late game keeps the vipers with revelation and doesnt lose 20 carriers to abducts throughout the game for free, and also gets his own templars feedbacked before heading into the final engagement lol (why would he engage right after losing all his energy?)
On November 25 2019 00:03 Elentos wrote: So ZvP late game is still just spellcaster spam :S
They are very hard to control all at once so I think it may be ok. I hate the infinity mana for the Viper, tho. That is not a spellcaster, it is a regular unit with a cooldown.
Viper is faster than high templar and flies. Plus it is often backed up by a thousand spores and broodlords who wreck high templars. Thus, tere's no way a Protoss will win the feedback / abduct war against a player as skilled as Reynor.
Protoss air armada vs Zerg is bad theory crafting. It supposes that on one hand Protoss will have insane micro and on the other that Zerg will make mistakes.
On November 25 2019 00:07 sirok_ wrote: Viper is faster than high templar and flies. Plus it is often backed up by a thousand spores and broodlords who wreck high templars. Thus, tere's no way a Protoss will win the feedback / abduct war against a player as skilled as Reynor.
Protoss air armada vs Zerg is bad theory crafting. It supposes that on one hand Protoss will have insane micro and on the other that Zerg will make mistakes.
Heroic unit should be non-abductable.
Protoss golden armada is the hightest dps comp and super tanky, it needs so much more skill to outposition it. And once viper get feedback, they are useless while they take more supply and are more expensive, there are not great in comparaison to ht to say the very least.
On November 25 2019 00:07 sirok_ wrote: Viper is faster than high templar and flies. Plus it is often backed up by a thousand spores and broodlords who wreck high templars. Thus, tere's no way a Protoss will win the feedback / abduct war against a player as skilled as Reynor.
Protoss air armada vs Zerg is bad theory crafting. It supposes that on one hand Protoss will have insane micro and on the other that Zerg will make mistakes.
Heroic unit should be non-abductable.
you literally need 2 hotkeys to control your 'air armada'.
air on 1, templars on 2. if you add a 3rd hotkey for 2 oracles and keep relevation on the vipers you can just hold down rapid fire feedback everytime it comes close enough to abduct and you will take good trades. Zerg needs to mass corrupter to beat your air armada now, there wont be so many broodlords all the supply has to go in vipers/corrupters/infestors (maybe) and a runby squad...
Zerg needs 5 hotkeys btw
broodlords corrupters/vipers infestors queens ground army squad
reynor played that game insanely well and just outplayed zest on every front.. Zest has never been known for his strenght in late game even when he was dominating in 2014. He's just not a late game player.
I'm starting to think you just can't beat players like serral and reynor in zvp. You have no chance in a macro game, and you can't surprise them with a cheese three times
On November 25 2019 00:16 Comedy wrote: Zest has never been known for his strenght in late game even when he was dominating in 2014. He's just not a late game player.
On November 25 2019 00:17 Arcanefrost wrote: I'm starting to think you just can't beat players like serral and reynor in zvp. You have no chance in a macro game, and you can't surprise them with a cheese three times
To be fair, patch hasn't even gone live yet (apart from HSC) and we could yet see a pvz playstyle that changes things completely. I know it's not the best example of how you could change late game pvz due its perceived lack of success so far but the idea of going for some disruptors late on seems to have untapped potential. Would love to see protoss mixing things up in the next WCS and hopefully a bit more success for the likes of neeb and showtime in the foreign circuit
On November 25 2019 00:17 Arcanefrost wrote: I'm starting to think you just can't beat players like serral and reynor in zvp. You have no chance in a macro game, and you can't surprise them with a cheese three times
To be fair, patch hasn't even gone live yet (apart from HSC) and we could yet see a pvz playstyle that changes things completely. I know it's not the best example of how you could change late game pvz due its perceived lack of success so far but the idea of going for some disruptors late on seems to have untapped potential. Would love to see protoss mixing things up in the next WCS and hopefully a bit more success for the likes of neeb and showtime in the foreign circuit
We saw at ASUS ROG Stats trying to manage speed prism disruptors, HTs, his air fleet and counter attacks (his own and his opponent's). It didn't work at the time but maybe without Infested Terrans it's worth another go. Just seems like a 500 APM playstyle.
Maybe we could make the mothership a bit less worthless in terms of actual fighting though since it's so insanely expensive and slow to build. For a one-of-a-kind unit it really does crap for damage. If you abduct a thor you risk it killing your viper. If you abduct a mothership the Protoss is broke.
On November 25 2019 00:27 Elentos wrote: Maybe we could make the mothership a bit less worthless in terms of actual fighting though since it's so insanely expensive and slow to build. For a one-of-a-kind unit it really does crap for damage. If you abduct a thor you risk it killing your viper. If you abduct a mothership the Protoss is broke.
It could actually be very good if it wasn't abductable. Or if abduct had one less range.
Would force the Z to trade corruptors / overseers to kill it or take some risks when going for an abduct.
On November 25 2019 00:27 Elentos wrote: Maybe we could make the mothership a bit less worthless in terms of actual fighting though since it's so insanely expensive and slow to build. For a one-of-a-kind unit it really does crap for damage. If you abduct a thor you risk it killing your viper. If you abduct a mothership the Protoss is broke.
It could actually be very good if it wasn't abductable. Or if abduct had one less range.
Would force the Z to trade corruptors / overseers to kill it or take some risks when going for an abduct.
I would rather units be more directly powerful than simply more bothersome to kill. Abduct range nerf would affect a lot of other interactions as well (mostly it would probably really, really, really hurt ZvMech).
On November 25 2019 00:03 Elentos wrote: So ZvP late game is still just spellcaster spam :S
I think this is the real issue, TvX matches got insanely better once they reworked the raven, since both terran spellscasters are only useful as support units in low numbers the games tend to be better.
When couple of storms or a fungal/PB combo can basically kill an entire air army the games becomes kind of shit.
You guys would really love to see Golden Armada steamrolling without Zerg being capable of doing anything? If your mothership get abducted three times for free you are evidently doing something wrong.
Man, what SC2 has become. Watch pro games from WOL, chock full of action. MC vs Thorzain for instance for in the TSL 3.
These games, the action has become limited to harrassment. No one attacks because there is no chance it will work so we just see them play Sim City until we reach late game where the side that is more overpowered in the meta just wins.
On November 25 2019 00:46 BronzeKnee wrote: Man, what SC2 has become. Watch pro games from WOL, chock full of action. MC vs Thorzain for instance for in the TSL 3.
These games, the action has become limited to harrassment. No one attacks because there is no chance it will work so we just steamroll to late game where the side that is more overpowered in the meta just wins.
lol you clearly haven't watched the rest of the games this tournament.
On November 25 2019 00:46 BronzeKnee wrote: Man, what SC2 has become. Watch pro games from WOL, chock full of action. MC vs Thorzain for instance for in the TSL 3.
These games, the action has become limited to harrassment. No one attacks because there is no chance it will work so we just see them play Sim City until we reach late game where the side that is more overpowered in the meta just wins.
On November 25 2019 00:46 BronzeKnee wrote: Man, what SC2 has become. Watch pro games from WOL, chock full of action. MC vs Thorzain for instance for in the TSL 3.
These games, the action has become limited to harrassment. No one attacks because there is no chance it will work so we just steamroll to late game where the side that is more overpowered in the meta just wins.
lol you clearly haven't watched the rest of the games this tournament.
My timezone doesn't work out well for it =(
Give me some games to watch where there is major action before T3.
On November 25 2019 00:46 BronzeKnee wrote: Man, what SC2 has become. Watch pro games from WOL, chock full of action. MC vs Thorzain for instance for in the TSL 3.
These games, the action has become limited to harrassment. No one attacks because there is no chance it will work so we just see them play Sim City until we reach late game where the side that is more overpowered in the meta just wins.
You sound like a man who would appreciate Parting's or Mana's PvT games
On November 25 2019 00:46 BronzeKnee wrote: Man, what SC2 has become. Watch pro games from WOL, chock full of action. MC vs Thorzain for instance for in the TSL 3.
These games, the action has become limited to harrassment. No one attacks because there is no chance it will work so we just see them play Sim City until we reach late game where the side that is more overpowered in the meta just wins.
What?
Don't you miss the beloved times of the 7-gate robo ?
On November 25 2019 00:46 BronzeKnee wrote: Man, what SC2 has become. Watch pro games from WOL, chock full of action. MC vs Thorzain for instance for in the TSL 3.
These games, the action has become limited to harrassment. No one attacks because there is no chance it will work so we just steamroll to late game where the side that is more overpowered in the meta just wins.
lol you clearly haven't watched the rest of the games this tournament.
My timezone doesn't work out well for it =(
Give me some games to watch where there is major action before T3.
Cure v PartinG Inno v Serral Mana v Special etc...
On November 25 2019 00:46 BronzeKnee wrote: Man, what SC2 has become. Watch pro games from WOL, chock full of action. MC vs Thorzain for instance for in the TSL 3.
These games, the action has become limited to harrassment. No one attacks because there is no chance it will work so we just see them play Sim City until we reach late game where the side that is more overpowered in the meta just wins.
What?
Don't you miss the beloved times of the 7-gate robo ?
Whatever else we think of the meta during a few months or a patch now and then it's clear that late Legacy of the Void is the best Starcraft 2 has ever been. There's tons of actions all the time, build order wins are almost gone, there's comebacks, cool new builds...
On November 25 2019 00:46 BronzeKnee wrote: Man, what SC2 has become. Watch pro games from WOL, chock full of action. MC vs Thorzain for instance for in the TSL 3.
These games, the action has become limited to harrassment. No one attacks because there is no chance it will work so we just see them play Sim City until we reach late game where the side that is more overpowered in the meta just wins.
What?
Don't you miss the beloved times of the 7-gate robo ?
Whatever else we think of the meta during a few months or a patch now and then it's clear that late Legacy of the Void is the best Starcraft 2 has ever been. There's tons of actions all the time, build order wins are almost gone, there's comebacks, cool new builds...
Ehh... I hardly think that the ridiculous balance issues PvZ had during last patch with Swarm Host/Nydus build order wins showed anything but the worst Starcraft we've seen since the release of HOTS.
On November 25 2019 00:46 BronzeKnee wrote: Man, what SC2 has become. Watch pro games from WOL, chock full of action. MC vs Thorzain for instance for in the TSL 3.
These games, the action has become limited to harrassment. No one attacks because there is no chance it will work so we just see them play Sim City until we reach late game where the side that is more overpowered in the meta just wins.
What?
Don't you miss the beloved times of the 7-gate robo ?
Whatever else we think of the meta during a few months or a patch now and then it's clear that late Legacy of the Void is the best Starcraft 2 has ever been. There's tons of actions all the time, build order wins are almost gone, there's comebacks, cool new builds...
Yeah, it kept getting better and better during LotV, but then the balance team just went underground while the state of the game descended into the most stale and boring it's been since forever. That was such a massive error by Blizzard. Hopefully we will soon be back on track. The new patch certainly looks better, but this time they need to keep tending to it until it's good.
On November 25 2019 00:56 swarminfestor wrote: Two of the best current Korean Zerg players were not here. Really hoped that Rogue and Dark may joined the next HomeStory tourney.
Because they didn't want to. If they don't want to join HSC XX I doubt they'd join a more normal one (i.e. not in Tropical Islands)...
Also I don't really miss them, Reynor and Serral are representing the Zerg race pretty well.
On November 25 2019 00:46 BronzeKnee wrote: Man, what SC2 has become. Watch pro games from WOL, chock full of action. MC vs Thorzain for instance for in the TSL 3.
These games, the action has become limited to harrassment. No one attacks because there is no chance it will work so we just see them play Sim City until we reach late game where the side that is more overpowered in the meta just wins.
What?
Don't you miss the beloved times of the 7-gate robo ?
Whatever else we think of the meta during a few months or a patch now and then it's clear that late Legacy of the Void is the best Starcraft 2 has ever been. There's tons of actions all the time, build order wins are almost gone, there's comebacks, cool new builds...
Ehh... I hardly think that the ridiculous balance issues PvZ had during last patch with Swarm Host/Nydus build order wins showed anything but the worst Starcraft we've seen since the release of HOTS.
On November 25 2019 01:02 Geo.Rion wrote: none of the secondary streams are showing Solar vs Zest?
There doesn't seem to be a 2nd English stream this time, the other streams are all from different languages. There used to be Basetradetv during the group stages, RIP.
The thing with Serral baneling runbies is that if you let them happening, you're dead, but if you stop them without losing anything, you're still behind. Feels bad for Trap.
I don't know how Showtime managed to win late game PvZ. Serral was weaker economically, sure, but not THAT weak. He still was maxed out and had lots of spores IIRC.
On November 25 2019 01:19 HolydaKing wrote: I don't know how Showtime managed to win late game PvZ. Serral was weaker economically, sure, but not THAT weak. He still was maxed out IIRC.
Just to clear things up, Archon toilet was the strat with which the Protoss wiped out the entire zerg army, by using black hole, and sending in archons. Reverse archon toilet was when the Protoss army got cought with the blackhole (due to neural, or just worked out hat way) and the zerg sent in banelings and/or ultras.
So what Trap attempted here would have been a simple archon toilet, not a reverse archon toilet
On November 25 2019 01:34 JJH777 wrote: Welp ZvP still looks absolutely hopeless for Protoss.
But the patch!!!! I was told by zergs the patch will fix it
Skytoss supposedly had no counter anymore. Some obscure theorycrafting about hydra + new shroud ability "might" have a chance against it, but it wasn't clear.
On November 25 2019 01:34 JJH777 wrote: Welp ZvP still looks absolutely hopeless for Protoss.
But the patch!!!! I was told by zergs the patch will fix it
Skytoss supposedly had no counter anymore. Some obscure theorycrafting about hydra + new shroud ability "might" have a chance against it, but it wasn't clear.
On November 25 2019 01:34 JJH777 wrote: Welp ZvP still looks absolutely hopeless for Protoss.
Zest just won 3-1
After getting 3-0ed by Reynor, so maybe the takeaway is that Solar isn't very good at ZvP.
So he 3-1 Stats yesterday, but he's bad at ZvP. Actually whenever Z loses to P it's because they re bad, and whenever P loses it's balance problems, got it
On November 25 2019 01:34 JJH777 wrote: Welp ZvP still looks absolutely hopeless for Protoss.
Zest just won 3-1
After getting 3-0ed by Reynor, so maybe the takeaway is that Solar isn't very good at ZvP.
So he 3-1 Stats yesterday, but he's bad at ZvP. Actually whenever Z loses to P it's because they re bad, and whenever P loses it's balance problems, got it
Stats lost because he didn't come here to win. Also it's a fact zvp has been broken for quite a while.
On November 25 2019 01:34 JJH777 wrote: Welp ZvP still looks absolutely hopeless for Protoss.
Zest just won 3-1
After getting 3-0ed by Reynor, so maybe the takeaway is that Solar isn't very good at ZvP.
So he 3-1 Stats yesterday, but he's bad at ZvP. Actually whenever Z loses to P it's because they re bad, and whenever P loses it's balance problems, got it
Stats lost because he didn't come here to win. Also it's a fact zvp has been broken for quite a while.
There is consensus, that's all one has to say really.
On November 25 2019 01:34 JJH777 wrote: Welp ZvP still looks absolutely hopeless for Protoss.
But the patch!!!! I was told by zergs the patch will fix it
Skytoss supposedly had no counter anymore. Some obscure theorycrafting about hydra + new shroud ability "might" have a chance against it, but it wasn't clear.
If the toss doesn't lose 60 probes to 6 in middle game, I am pretty sure it is not.
On November 25 2019 01:34 JJH777 wrote: Welp ZvP still looks absolutely hopeless for Protoss.
Zest just won 3-1
After getting 3-0ed by Reynor, so maybe the takeaway is that Solar isn't very good at ZvP.
So he 3-1 Stats yesterday, but he's bad at ZvP. Actually whenever Z loses to P it's because they re bad, and whenever P loses it's balance problems, got it
Stats lost because he didn't come here to win. Also it's a fact zvp has been broken for quite a while.
cool cool cool, someone whose best mu is ZvP beats someone whose worst mu is PvZ, so it means it's unplaybale for toss. But Solar vs Zest doesnt matter, cuz Solar has bad zvp, cool cool cool
On November 25 2019 01:34 JJH777 wrote: Welp ZvP still looks absolutely hopeless for Protoss.
Zest just won 3-1
After getting 3-0ed by Reynor, so maybe the takeaway is that Solar isn't very good at ZvP.
So he 3-1 Stats yesterday, but he's bad at ZvP. Actually whenever Z loses to P it's because they re bad, and whenever P loses it's balance problems, got it
Stats lost because he didn't come here to win. Also it's a fact zvp has been broken for quite a while.
cool cool cool, someone whose best mu is ZvP beats someone whose worst mu is PvZ, so it means it's unplaybale for zerg. But Solar vs Zest doesnt matter, cuz Solar has bad zvp, cool cool cool
Save the shittalk, we're getting Serral vs Zest next anyhow.
On November 25 2019 01:34 JJH777 wrote: Welp ZvP still looks absolutely hopeless for Protoss.
Zest just won 3-1
After getting 3-0ed by Reynor, so maybe the takeaway is that Solar isn't very good at ZvP.
So he 3-1 Stats yesterday, but he's bad at ZvP. Actually whenever Z loses to P it's because they re bad, and whenever P loses it's balance problems, got it
Stats lost because he didn't come here to win. Also it's a fact zvp has been broken for quite a while.
cool cool cool, someone whose best mu is ZvP beats someone whose worst mu is PvZ, so it means it's unplaybale for toss. But Solar vs Zest doesnt matter, cuz Solar has bad zvp, cool cool cool
Well actually I disagree that Solar has bad zvp. I don't think any top zerg player has bad zvp these days.
On November 25 2019 01:34 JJH777 wrote: Welp ZvP still looks absolutely hopeless for Protoss.
Zest just won 3-1
After getting 3-0ed by Reynor, so maybe the takeaway is that Solar isn't very good at ZvP.
So he 3-1 Stats yesterday, but he's bad at ZvP. Actually whenever Z loses to P it's because they re bad, and whenever P loses it's balance problems, got it
Stats lost because he didn't come here to win. Also it's a fact zvp has been broken for quite a while.
There is consensus, that's all one has to say really.
Yeah, we all have eyes. PvZ still seems unwinnable if the P takes any amount of damage early or mid game. It is even (?) when it does not (Nydus SH still looks OP for me) Meanwhile, Z can loose up to 10 drones and still be ok. If ahead, there is almost no way to loose. The creep spread assures that.
On November 25 2019 01:34 JJH777 wrote: Welp ZvP still looks absolutely hopeless for Protoss.
Zest just won 3-1
After getting 3-0ed by Reynor, so maybe the takeaway is that Solar isn't very good at ZvP.
So he 3-1 Stats yesterday, but he's bad at ZvP. Actually whenever Z loses to P it's because they re bad, and whenever P loses it's balance problems, got it
Stats lost because he didn't come here to win. Also it's a fact zvp has been broken for quite a while.
cool cool cool, someone whose best mu is ZvP beats someone whose worst mu is PvZ, so it means it's unplaybale for toss. But Solar vs Zest doesnt matter, cuz Solar has bad zvp, cool cool cool
True enough, but I think what it's really about is Nydushost and Zerg blord deathball... We have seen that so much that we have all gotten allergic to it now.
But the answer to that is definitely not to make Skytoss deathball strong enough to beat it.
On November 25 2019 01:34 JJH777 wrote: Welp ZvP still looks absolutely hopeless for Protoss.
Zest just won 3-1
After getting 3-0ed by Reynor, so maybe the takeaway is that Solar isn't very good at ZvP.
So he 3-1 Stats yesterday, but he's bad at ZvP. Actually whenever Z loses to P it's because they re bad, and whenever P loses it's balance problems, got it
Stats lost because he didn't come here to win. Also it's a fact zvp has been broken for quite a while.
cool cool cool, someone whose best mu is ZvP beats someone whose worst mu is PvZ, so it means it's unplaybale for toss. But Solar vs Zest doesnt matter, cuz Solar has bad zvp, cool cool cool
Well actually I disagree that Solar has bad zvp. I don't think any top zerg player has bad zvp these days.
Solar was just sucking in every match. There are like none top Zerg nowadays except Dark choker.
On November 25 2019 01:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Is Serral just trying to tell the balance team the patch doesn't even change anything?
Well, someone needs to tell them
Did anyone serious believe that patch would change much?
I didn;'t event bother to read it because I'm letting the SC2 slowly out of my life. It's just not worth it anymore. All the balance stuff we get lately isn't worth it. Time for another 2-year break .Or longer.
On November 01 2019 23:54 sirok_ wrote: [...] By the way, I think abduct, parasiting bombs, locusts, mass moving spores, queens heal, will still dominate late-game by being more cost-effective than any T/P composition. Hope to be wrong, time will tell.
On November 01 2019 23:54 sirok_ wrote: [...] By the way, I think abduct, parasiting bombs, locusts, mass moving spores, queens heal, will still dominate late-game by being more cost-effective than any T/P composition. Hope to be wrong, time will tell.
A patch can’t change the fact that Koreans don’t train anymore and now they suck. Look at stats form or soO they suck hard. Inno playing at 50% of his lvl is brutalizing everyone.
On November 25 2019 02:01 TheAnarchy wrote: A patch can’t change the fact that Koreans don’t train anymore and now they suck. Look at stats form or soO they suck hard. Inno playing at 50% of his lvl is brutalizing everyone.
On November 25 2019 01:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Is Serral just trying to tell the balance team the patch doesn't even change anything?
Well, someone needs to tell them
Did anyone serious believe that patch would change much?
I didn;'t event bother to read it because I'm letting the SC2 slowly out of my life. It's just not worth it anymore. All the balance stuff we get lately isn't worth it. Time for another 2-year break .Or longer.
And you consider yourself to be serious? The patch is ok if suddenly Trap, who lost both his Code S finals in 2019 because he had subpar ZvP, gets to magically defeat Serral?
On November 25 2019 02:01 TheAnarchy wrote: A patch can’t change the fact that Koreans don’t train anymore and now they suck. Look at stats form or soO they suck hard. Inno playing at 50% of his lvl is brutalizing everyone.
The good old Koreans don't practice excuse
Name me the new Korean talents. It must be a coincidence that the only Koreans top are semiretired players or old Koreans that came to their peak. Trying too ignore this fact is just ridiculous. Not like old days where you had new players coming out like maru, dark, life, long etc.
On November 25 2019 02:01 TheAnarchy wrote: A patch can’t change the fact that Koreans don’t train anymore and now they suck. Look at stats form or soO they suck hard. Inno playing at 50% of his lvl is brutalizing everyone.
The good old Koreans don't practice excuse
Name me the new Korean talents. It must be a coincidence that the only Koreans top are semiretired players or old Koreans that came to their peak. Trying too ignore this fact is just ridiculous. Not like old days where you had new players coming out like maru, dark, life, long etc.
You said that Koreans don't practice, not about no new blood coming in. There's a difference.
On November 25 2019 02:01 TheAnarchy wrote: A patch can’t change the fact that Koreans don’t train anymore and now they suck. Look at stats form or soO they suck hard. Inno playing at 50% of his lvl is brutalizing everyone.
The good old Koreans don't practice excuse
Name me the new Korean talents. It must be a coincidence that the only Koreans top are semiretired players or old Koreans that came to their peak. Trying too ignore this fact is just ridiculous. Not like old days where you had new players coming out like maru, dark, life, long etc.
You said that Koreans don't practice, not about no new blood coming in. There's a difference.
Solar, soO, Rogue, a lot of them are saying this and the current scene seems to encourage it, once they get eliminated in ro16, there aren't much things to do for them. At least, their practise is not as regular.
On November 25 2019 02:01 TheAnarchy wrote: A patch can’t change the fact that Koreans don’t train anymore and now they suck. Look at stats form or soO they suck hard. Inno playing at 50% of his lvl is brutalizing everyone.
The good old Koreans don't practice excuse
Name me the new Korean talents. It must be a coincidence that the only Koreans top are semiretired players or old Koreans that came to their peak. Trying too ignore this fact is just ridiculous. Not like old days where you had new players coming out like maru, dark, life, long etc.
Why no new rising stars among Korean would imply that the current best Koreans players are not practicing ? Even if that argument made sense - it does not - the same logic could apply for top EU.
Who are the rising stars among top EU players ? Serral and Reynor are both playing this game since WoL too.
On November 25 2019 02:01 TheAnarchy wrote: A patch can’t change the fact that Koreans don’t train anymore and now they suck. Look at stats form or soO they suck hard. Inno playing at 50% of his lvl is brutalizing everyone.
The good old Koreans don't practice excuse
Name me the new Korean talents. It must be a coincidence that the only Koreans top are semiretired players or old Koreans that came to their peak. Trying too ignore this fact is just ridiculous. Not like old days where you had new players coming out like maru, dark, life, long etc.
Why no new rising stars among Korean would imply that the current best Koreans players are not practicing ? Even if that argument made sense - it does not - the same logic could apply for top EU.
Who are the rising stars among top EU players ? Serral and Reynor are both playing this game since WoL too.
Koreans are not training in general. So new blood isn’t rising because they don’t train. Is not a thing of talent only. Old players have already developed their potential so they don’t need to train as hard to mantain close lvl, that’s a fact in most sports and more in the ones that are more intelectual. NA always trained less then Koreans they didn’t had proteams, so they maintained the lvl of training. In WOL there other foreigners in their peak. Snute, scarlet, neeb, etc. Serral and Raynor are new compared too the old foreigners.
In a system where players get matched according to their ELO / prestige, win rate does not mean much.
I believe it would made much more "mathematical" sense to assume top 5 Z should approximately equal top 5 T and compare the win rate at this level.
If you only consider the top 10 players then your sample size is non-existent and your results have no statistical significance. Additionally there is a clear difference between different maps, so this at least informs about how good maps are relative to each other.
In a system where players get matched according to their ELO / prestige, win rate does not mean much.
I believe it would made much more "mathematical" sense to assume top 5 Z should approximately equal top 5 T and compare the win rate at this level.
If you only consider the top 10 players then your sample size is non-existent and your results have no statistical significance. Additionally there is a clear difference between different maps, so this at least informs about how good maps are relative to each other.
I don't deny a sample size of 10 sucks from a statistical standpoint. I still think it's better than using the result of a top 3 Terran vs Top 20 Zerg as an indicator of map balance.
In a system where players get matched according to their ELO / prestige, win rate does not mean much.
I believe it would made much more "mathematical" sense to assume top 5 Z should approximately equal top 5 T and compare the win rate at this level.
If you only consider the top 10 players then your sample size is non-existent and your results have no statistical significance. Additionally there is a clear difference between different maps, so this at least informs about how good maps are relative to each other.
I don't deny a sample size of 10 sucks from a statistical standpoint. I still think it's better than using the result of a top 3 Terran vs Top 20 Zerg as an indicator of map balance.
The top 3 terrans just don't play enough tournament games on each map for that. Besides your concern over elo unevenness in matchups applies equally for different maps, so it shouldn't bias the results.
Inno multitasking was terrible. Bad engagements, letting command centers die without repairing or lifting, sending units nowhere, etc. He was clearly surpassed. As I said inno just at 50% of his old lvl
On November 25 2019 02:39 TheAnarchy wrote: Inno multitasking was terrible. Bad engagements, letting command centers die without repairing or lifting, sending units nowhere, etc. He was clearly surpassed. As I said inno just at 50% of his old lvl
Inno might have been able to end the game if he hadnt forgotten to put his thors on high impact gun when he first pushed with BCs tanks and thors.
Then he randomly sent tanks and hellbats off by themselves on a "runby" which you cannot do against infestors. Tanks need to be there to kill infestors when they neural thors.
Then there were those forgetting to repair etc.
He made a lot of mistakes that game. He shouldve won that easily
On November 25 2019 02:39 Xain0n wrote: Inveterate whiners…Thors now outrange Broodlords so much, Neural has range 8 but you just can't stop complaining.
Maybe because there are at least 4 Zergs who are basically unbeatable and then 10 other Zergs who can go 50-50 against the best T/P players in the world. I guess all those Zerg players are just better or equal to the best T/P players. I wonder when Zerg will finally lose an event again.
On November 25 2019 02:38 Lexender wrote: Serral vs Reynor ZvZ finals really get old after a year of it
Thankfully they didn't meet in any of the big tourneys like IEM or Blizzcon or Code S.
Yes, they didn't meet in the tournament where they don't participate, right.
I obviously mean WCS (and other foreign tourneys).
I really dislike what the foreigner scene has come to, Serral vs Reynor, ZvZ everywhere, it doesn't matter what patch its always the same. It makes the scene feel really stagnant.
On November 25 2019 02:50 Topin wrote: 3-0 the machine daaaaaaaamn!
Well inno lost every game's early game and then he just lost later because he tried to catch up. In the 2nd map he threw a victory then IMO, because he got back.
Dunno, can't rly feel the hype for all those xvz finals anymore (esp with zergs winning them mostly). Don't think it's neccessarily balance that they perform so well but for me it gets boring quite fast now :/
Inno played like crap. Ray or proposed a micro and macro game straightforward. Inno dropped the ball so hard. Raynor seemed like Life for a moment but then you see he have a shadow of Inno in front. What a decadent timing and micro
On November 25 2019 02:54 deacon.frost wrote: Heh, Reynor gonna prove by him playing the game that he's not getting any help from patch. Is he drunk? That doesn't make any sense.
He meant that he's going to be successful even in this new patch to show that he wasnt reliant on last patch
Reynor got spanked by Maru, lost 0-3 against HM and Special outside of WCS in the previous patch and now he manages to defeat both Cure and Inno, it's impressive, he is still improving at a fast rate, he might be the strongest player of the upcoming year.
Korean elitists heads exploding trying to figure out how Inno can be the GOAT for beating Serral and a washed up jetlagged ex-pro without practice so Reynors win does not matter at the same time.
On November 25 2019 02:57 ChaosArcher wrote: Korean elitists heads exploding trying to figure out how Inno can be the GOAT for beating Serral and a washed up jetlagged ex-pro without practice so Reynors win does not matter at the same time.
It's easy. Serral sucks so beating him is not impressive /s
Reynor does not bring out the best of his opponents...
As good as the observer was, it is simply impossible to show everything that is going on. Reynor has better multi tasking and is forcing Inno to do mistakes by making the ingame announcer cry about attacks everywhere at once, all the time.
Of course it helps to play the best a-move race vs the worst, but vs a worse opponent, Innovation can be the one out-multitasking.
On November 25 2019 02:56 MarianoSC2 wrote: Yeah Inno just played terrible here, while Reynor seems to be in top form. There is really no reason to balance whine after this...
I just wish we had a tournaments where either Serral or Reynor don't win (or even theres a final without either of them).
Tournaments nowadays are either "Will eithef Serral or Reynor win" or (if they are Blizzcon or GSL vs the world) "Will some korean beat them in the finals"
On November 25 2019 02:56 MarianoSC2 wrote: Yeah Inno just played terrible here, while Reynor seems to be in top form. There is really no reason to balance whine after this...
I just wish we had a tournaments where either Serral or Reynor don't win (or even theres a final without either of them).
Tournaments nowadays are either "Will eithef Serral or Reynor win" or (if they are Blizzcon or GSL vs the world) "Will some korean beat them in the finals"
Top 2 Korean players are not at HSC, I would dare to say top 3 considering vZ MU.
On November 25 2019 02:56 MarianoSC2 wrote: Yeah Inno just played terrible here, while Reynor seems to be in top form. There is really no reason to balance whine after this...
I just wish we had a tournaments where either Serral or Reynor don't win (or even theres a final without either of them).
Tournaments nowadays are either "Will eithef Serral or Reynor win" or (if they are Blizzcon or GSL vs the world) "Will some korean beat them in the finals"
Koreans don’t train and play terrible why would you them to win? You must want too see the better players play and win. Foreign only tournaments nowadays. We don’t want too see Lazy Koreans sucking.
On November 25 2019 02:56 MarianoSC2 wrote: Yeah Inno just played terrible here, while Reynor seems to be in top form. There is really no reason to balance whine after this...
I just wish we had a tournaments where either Serral or Reynor don't win (or even theres a final without either of them).
Tournaments nowadays are either "Will eithef Serral or Reynor win" or (if they are Blizzcon or GSL vs the world) "Will some korean beat them in the finals"
Koreans don’t train and play terrible why would you them to win? You must want too see the better players play and win. Foreign only tournaments nowadays. We don’t want too see Lazy Koreans sucking.
Your trolling is becoming quite boring quite quickly, dude. Cut it.
On November 25 2019 02:57 ChaosArcher wrote: Korean elitists heads exploding trying to figure out how Inno can be the GOAT for beating Serral and a washed up jetlagged ex-pro without practice so Reynors win does not matter at the same time.
It's easy. Serral sucks so beating him is not impressive /s
On November 25 2019 02:56 MarianoSC2 wrote: Yeah Inno just played terrible here, while Reynor seems to be in top form. There is really no reason to balance whine after this...
I just wish we had a tournaments where either Serral or Reynor don't win (or even theres a final without either of them).
Tournaments nowadays are either "Will eithef Serral or Reynor win" or (if they are Blizzcon or GSL vs the world) "Will some korean beat them in the finals"
Top 2 Korean players are not at HSC, I would dare to say top 3 considering vZ MU.
Thats exactly my point.
The foreign scene has become "See who wins in Serral vs Reynor, disregard the rest".
Koreans at least had some movement with 3 different protoss competing for top spot and the rise of Dark.
On November 25 2019 02:56 MarianoSC2 wrote: Yeah Inno just played terrible here, while Reynor seems to be in top form. There is really no reason to balance whine after this...
I just wish we had a tournaments where either Serral or Reynor don't win (or even theres a final without either of them).
Tournaments nowadays are either "Will eithef Serral or Reynor win" or (if they are Blizzcon or GSL vs the world) "Will some korean beat them in the finals"
Koreans don’t train and play terrible why would you them to win? You must want too see the better players play and win. Foreign only tournaments nowadays. We don’t want too see Lazy Koreans sucking.
Your trolling is becoming quite boring quite quickly, dude. Cut it.
I’m wrong? There was a time we wanted too see only Koreans (code s) because they where the best. Nowadays foreign are better and getting even better with fresh blood. Why can’t we promote a league of full foreigners and give space too real new talents instead of washed legends?
On November 25 2019 02:56 MarianoSC2 wrote: Yeah Inno just played terrible here, while Reynor seems to be in top form. There is really no reason to balance whine after this...
I just wish we had a tournaments where either Serral or Reynor don't win (or even theres a final without either of them).
Tournaments nowadays are either "Will eithef Serral or Reynor win" or (if they are Blizzcon or GSL vs the world) "Will some korean beat them in the finals"
Koreans don’t train and play terrible why would you them to win? You must want too see the better players play and win. Foreign only tournaments nowadays. We don’t want too see Lazy Koreans sucking.
Your trolling is becoming quite boring quite quickly, dude. Cut it.
I’m wrong? There was a time we wanted too see only Koreans (code s) because they where the best. Nowadays foreign are better and getting even better with fresh blood. Why can’t we promote a league of full foreigners and give space too real new talents instead of washed legends?
Yes, you're wrong. There literally is a league for Foreigners, it's called WCS. Not sure if you heard of it.
On November 25 2019 02:56 MarianoSC2 wrote: Yeah Inno just played terrible here, while Reynor seems to be in top form. There is really no reason to balance whine after this...
I just wish we had a tournaments where either Serral or Reynor don't win (or even theres a final without either of them).
Tournaments nowadays are either "Will eithef Serral or Reynor win" or (if they are Blizzcon or GSL vs the world) "Will some korean beat them in the finals"
Koreans don’t train and play terrible why would you them to win? You must want too see the better players play and win. Foreign only tournaments nowadays. We don’t want too see Lazy Koreans sucking.
Your trolling is becoming quite boring quite quickly, dude. Cut it.
I’m wrong? There was a time we wanted too see only Koreans (code s) because they where the best. Nowadays foreign are better and getting even better with fresh blood. Why can’t we promote a league of full foreigners and give space too real new talents instead of washed legends?
Yes, you're wrong. There literally is a league for Foreigners, it's called WCS. Not sure if you heard of it.
I didn't watch the first two days but I feel like there is a lack of "diversity" on the casting couch. As much as I like watching Rotti and Artosis, they have commentated quite a lot this HSC and I haven't seen much random combinations like there usually are. At least way less compared to some older editions.
On November 25 2019 02:56 MarianoSC2 wrote: Yeah Inno just played terrible here, while Reynor seems to be in top form. There is really no reason to balance whine after this...
I just wish we had a tournaments where either Serral or Reynor don't win (or even theres a final without either of them).
Tournaments nowadays are either "Will eithef Serral or Reynor win" or (if they are Blizzcon or GSL vs the world) "Will some korean beat them in the finals"
Koreans don’t train and play terrible why would you them to win? You must want too see the better players play and win. Foreign only tournaments nowadays. We don’t want too see Lazy Koreans sucking.
I guess you are trolling but 9 out of 10 Koreans advanced from the group stage with the 10th one coming in at a close 5th.
In the knockout stage, if you don't consider Serral and Reynor, the Koreans have gone 4-1 against foreigners in series, with the 1 upset being MaNa beating Taeja 3-2.
With 2 noteable exceptions, the Koreans are still better, especially if you take into account that all the best foreigners were present while many top Koreans are missing: 4 of the Koreans present were knocked out in the RO32 last GSL and one did not even qualify for Code S.
On November 25 2019 03:23 Boucot wrote: I didn't watch the first two days but I feel like there is a lack of "diversity" on the casting couch. As much as I like watching Rotti and Artosis, they have commentated quite a lot this HSC and I haven't seen much random combinations like there usually are. At least way less compared to some older editions.
You're not wrong. I haven't missed much in this HSC and I haven't seen a single korean cast, for example.
On November 25 2019 03:23 Boucot wrote: I didn't watch the first two days but I feel like there is a lack of "diversity" on the casting couch. As much as I like watching Rotti and Artosis, they have commentated quite a lot this HSC and I haven't seen much random combinations like there usually are. At least way less compared to some older editions.
You're not wrong. I haven't missed much in this HSC and I haven't seen a single korean cast, for example.
I think we had PartinG and Hajin on the couch on Day 1.
On November 25 2019 03:23 Boucot wrote: I didn't watch the first two days but I feel like there is a lack of "diversity" on the casting couch. As much as I like watching Rotti and Artosis, they have commentated quite a lot this HSC and I haven't seen much random combinations like there usually are. At least way less compared to some older editions.
You're not wrong. I haven't missed much in this HSC and I haven't seen a single korean cast, for example.
I agree - but actually Rotti hasn't been there so much, maybe because of the injury.
On November 25 2019 02:56 MarianoSC2 wrote: Yeah Inno just played terrible here, while Reynor seems to be in top form. There is really no reason to balance whine after this...
I just wish we had a tournaments where either Serral or Reynor don't win (or even theres a final without either of them).
Tournaments nowadays are either "Will eithef Serral or Reynor win" or (if they are Blizzcon or GSL vs the world) "Will some korean beat them in the finals"
Top 2 Korean players are not at HSC, I would dare to say top 3 considering vZ MU.
Thats exactly my point.
The foreign scene has become "See who wins in Serral vs Reynor, disregard the rest".
Koreans at least had some movement with 3 different protoss competing for top spot and the rise of Dark.
But what would you want to do about it? Tell Serral and Reynor to stop practicing and start playing worse so the other foreigners can catch up? Those 2 are simply the best 2 foreigners by quite a big margin
On November 25 2019 02:56 MarianoSC2 wrote: Yeah Inno just played terrible here, while Reynor seems to be in top form. There is really no reason to balance whine after this...
I just wish we had a tournaments where either Serral or Reynor don't win (or even theres a final without either of them).
Tournaments nowadays are either "Will eithef Serral or Reynor win" or (if they are Blizzcon or GSL vs the world) "Will some korean beat them in the finals"
Top 2 Korean players are not at HSC, I would dare to say top 3 considering vZ MU.
Thats exactly my point.
The foreign scene has become "See who wins in Serral vs Reynor, disregard the rest".
Koreans at least had some movement with 3 different protoss competing for top spot and the rise of Dark.
But what would you want to do about it? Tell Serral and Reynor to stop practicing and start playing worse so the other foreigners can catch up? Those 2 are simply the best 2 foreigners by quite a big margin
I'm not convinced they would be dramatically better than Neeb/Special in a balanced meta. They'd still be favored but like 65-35 instead of 90-10
On November 25 2019 02:56 MarianoSC2 wrote: Yeah Inno just played terrible here, while Reynor seems to be in top form. There is really no reason to balance whine after this...
I just wish we had a tournaments where either Serral or Reynor don't win (or even theres a final without either of them).
Tournaments nowadays are either "Will eithef Serral or Reynor win" or (if they are Blizzcon or GSL vs the world) "Will some korean beat them in the finals"
Top 2 Korean players are not at HSC, I would dare to say top 3 considering vZ MU.
Thats exactly my point.
The foreign scene has become "See who wins in Serral vs Reynor, disregard the rest".
Koreans at least had some movement with 3 different protoss competing for top spot and the rise of Dark.
But what would you want to do about it? Tell Serral and Reynor to stop practicing and start playing worse so the other foreigners can catch up? Those 2 are simply the best 2 foreigners by quite a big margin
I'm not convinced they would be dramatically better than Neeb/Special in a balanced meta. They'd still be favored but like 65-35 instead of 90-10
I am starting to think that if you reach a certain level with Zerg, the core mechanics of production and map control makes it incredibly hard to stop. Nerfing zerg so much that Serral and Reynor are not dominant will probably make the race underpowered for everybody else.
We have seen similar issues with Terran also, notably with Byun and Maru.
On November 25 2019 02:56 MarianoSC2 wrote: Yeah Inno just played terrible here, while Reynor seems to be in top form. There is really no reason to balance whine after this...
I just wish we had a tournaments where either Serral or Reynor don't win (or even theres a final without either of them).
Tournaments nowadays are either "Will eithef Serral or Reynor win" or (if they are Blizzcon or GSL vs the world) "Will some korean beat them in the finals"
Top 2 Korean players are not at HSC, I would dare to say top 3 considering vZ MU.
Thats exactly my point.
The foreign scene has become "See who wins in Serral vs Reynor, disregard the rest".
Koreans at least had some movement with 3 different protoss competing for top spot and the rise of Dark.
But what would you want to do about it? Tell Serral and Reynor to stop practicing and start playing worse so the other foreigners can catch up? Those 2 are simply the best 2 foreigners by quite a big margin
I'm not convinced they would be dramatically better than Neeb/Special in a balanced meta. They'd still be favored but like 65-35 instead of 90-10
I am starting to think that if you reach a certain level with Zerg, the core mechanics of production and map control makes it incredibly hard to stop. Nerfing zerg so much that Serral and Reynor are not dominant will probably make the race underpowered for everybody else.
We have seen similar issues with Terran also, notably with Byun and Maru.
Nah, it's not like they are dominating every tournament they join. They didn't win Blizzcon nor IEM, two of the biggest tournaments of the year while the Blizzcon was during a heavy Zerg favoring state of the game. (although another Zerg won it )
On November 25 2019 02:56 MarianoSC2 wrote: Yeah Inno just played terrible here, while Reynor seems to be in top form. There is really no reason to balance whine after this...
I just wish we had a tournaments where either Serral or Reynor don't win (or even theres a final without either of them).
Tournaments nowadays are either "Will eithef Serral or Reynor win" or (if they are Blizzcon or GSL vs the world) "Will some korean beat them in the finals"
Top 2 Korean players are not at HSC, I would dare to say top 3 considering vZ MU.
Thats exactly my point.
The foreign scene has become "See who wins in Serral vs Reynor, disregard the rest".
Koreans at least had some movement with 3 different protoss competing for top spot and the rise of Dark.
But what would you want to do about it? Tell Serral and Reynor to stop practicing and start playing worse so the other foreigners can catch up? Those 2 are simply the best 2 foreigners by quite a big margin
I'm not convinced they would be dramatically better than Neeb/Special in a balanced meta. They'd still be favored but like 65-35 instead of 90-10
I am starting to think that if you reach a certain level with Zerg, the core mechanics of production and map control makes it incredibly hard to stop. Nerfing zerg so much that Serral and Reynor are not dominant will probably make the race underpowered for everybody else.
We have seen similar issues with Terran also, notably with Byun and Maru.
It's not just Serral and Reynor though. It's also Rogue and Dark. 4 Zergs who happen to be way better than all the best T/P players?
On November 25 2019 03:46 swarminfestor wrote: Zest had many chances and still lost.
Serral is the better player but it’s ridiculous that a Zerg can completely botch a massive all in in which half the queens die and still compete like that. And then blow up an army of robo stalker with banes
On November 25 2019 04:07 TheOneAboveU wrote: What is Zest doing?!
He's just trolling us at this point. Build a big army, don't use it. Build a shitload of production, have it all smashed by a single Nydus that he had a DT to prevent.
On November 25 2019 04:11 ZigguratOfUr wrote: I don't know why Zest hasn't built 40 cannons and 40 shield batteries. Can't be worse than building 20 gateways.
Get HasuObs here immediately, he'll get this right!
On November 25 2019 04:11 ZigguratOfUr wrote: I don't know why Zest hasn't built 40 cannons and 40 shield batteries. Can't be worse than building 20 gateways.
Get HasuObs here immediately, he'll get this right!
If a 4-time EPS champion can't figure it out, honestly who can ?
Those lurkers did waaaay too much! The ones at the 9 and 12 o clock bases were allowed to just sit there forever with no observers nearby.
I am not sure if I like that dance between 2 big deathball and a battle of who can land the best spells but at least it looks like the player with the better control will win.
On November 25 2019 04:20 HolydaKing wrote: Oracle revelation definitely is crucial to prevent abducts with templars, Zest did that but not often enough I think.
High templar with 9 range storm are a lot worse against 10 range lurkers tbf.
On November 25 2019 04:20 HolydaKing wrote: Oracle revelation definitely is crucial to prevent abducts with templars, Zest did that but not often enough I think.
High templar with 9 range storm are a lot worse against 10 range lurkers tbf.
I was talking about feedback, and yeah, that's a problem and makes it incredibly hard to play.
On November 25 2019 04:22 Xain0n wrote: To win this tournament, Serral has to take down both of his worst nemesis.
Such a sick setup for the final two series. Couldn't wish for a better top 3 and Reynor being the coming from the winners bracket is awesome too. Let's go
On November 25 2019 04:20 HolydaKing wrote: Oracle revelation definitely is crucial to prevent abducts with templars, Zest did that but not often enough I think.
High templar with 9 range storm are a lot worse against 10 range lurkers tbf.
Storm out ranges lurker when you consider the radius.
Lurkers also have to burrow to start doing damage. And the projectile is slow meaning ht are safe.
Not to mention war prism. Tempest cover fire, disruptor etc
On November 25 2019 04:30 Penev wrote: maybe we will see shrouds used in the finals vs mutas
Wouldnt fungal growth just be better in that senario? Unlike the rest of people I dont think it's bad per say it's just that zerg always has better options. I think it would be most effective vs a mass liberator comp but even in that senario just abducting the libs with vipers seems like a better counter.
On November 25 2019 04:30 Penev wrote: maybe we will see shrouds used in the finals vs mutas
Wouldnt fungal growth just be better in that senario? Unlike the rest of people I dont think it's bad per say it's just that zerg always has better options. I think it would be most effective vs a mass liberator comp but even in that senario just abducting the libs with vipers seems like a better counter.
Hehe, I wasn't being serious I was mostly saying Inno will lose next match but yeah I agree with your post
On November 25 2019 05:23 NotSoHappy wrote: i open this thread to find some decent discussion about the games and all i get is balance whine. arent u people tired?
On November 25 2019 05:23 NotSoHappy wrote: i open this thread to find some decent discussion about the games and all i get is balance whine. arent u people tired?
On November 25 2019 05:24 Musicus wrote: We broke 30k on the main stream, well over 40k with all the streams. Pretty sick.
It's nice but I'm mostly excited by the fact the schedule is holding. It would just be a travesty if those nice old folks in Berlin were kept up past midnight again.
Reynor and Serral carrying the foreigners scene so severely right now, it's not even funny. Two lords among a sea of peasants. Even after the hard nerf to zerg, they's still head and shoulders above every other foreigner. Good work, boys.
On November 25 2019 05:23 NotSoHappy wrote: i open this thread to find some decent discussion about the games and all i get is balance whine. arent u people tired?
people had hope that with the new patch we were going to escape the ZvZvZ hell we endure and suffer for more than one year. It's hard when hope is so brutally murdered. People are tired, very tired... of ZvZcraft.
This game feels so dumb to watch lately. I can't believe we've had so many ZvZ finals and Zerg victories this year and this patch is all the balance team would do. 2020 will be just as bad if they don't nerf Zerg significantly.
On November 25 2019 05:26 tigon_ridge wrote: Reynor and Serral carrying the foreigners scene so severely right now, it's not even funny. Two lords among a sea of peasants. Even after the hard nerf to zerg, they's still head and shoulders above every other foreigner. Good work, boys.
Yes, so heavy nerfs they are still winning. Maybe, just maybe, they weren't so big nerfs after all...
On November 25 2019 05:26 tigon_ridge wrote: Reynor and Serral carrying the foreigners scene so severely right now, it's not even funny. Two lords among a sea of peasants. Even after the hard nerf to zerg, they's still head and shoulders above every other foreigner. Good work, boys.
Yes, so heavy nerfs they are still winning. Maybe, just maybe, they weren't so big nerfs after all...
Maybe, just maybe, they played better in this tournament. Solar was slaughtering every Protoss in Korea before the patch and here he fell to both Trap and Zest...
I'm so immensely disappointed. This might not even be balance related, because Serral and Reynor are obviously very good, but 2019 has just been terrible as a Terran fan. I had high hopes for this tournament, so it feels absolutely horrible for this to be another ZvZ. If this keeps up much longer, I don't know if I want to continue watching starcraft anymore. This year is draining my passion hard.
On November 25 2019 05:16 darklycid wrote: Reynor and Serral are both really good players but i don't want 4 Serral Reynor finals in wcs next year
If region lock doesn't end that is exactly what were getting.
That's assuming many things, like that there are 4 wcs events next year, that the game doesn't get patched so that Neeb murders zergs again etc.
That assumes that the top Koreans will travel there. Which doesn't seem much likely either
You were predicting zero koreans going to ASUS Rog, we had almost a dozen; koreans will come if they'll have the opportunity!
Let's skip the rule.
All the top players in Korea were asked. Dark, Rogue and Maru skipped. What makes you think that the top, KEY WORD BEING THE TOP, just change their minds and go to join WCS now?
Not that i care, but i cannot bare when you twist my words.
KEYWORAD IS THE TOP.
On November 25 2019 05:29 Jerom wrote: I'm so immensely disappointed. This might not even be balance related, because Serral and Reynor are obviously very good, but 2019 has just been terrible as a Terran fan. I had high hopes for this tournament, so it feels absolutely horrible for this to be another ZvZ. If this keeps up much longer, I don't know if I want to continue watching starcraft anymore. This year is draining my passion hard.
Zergs just played better, deal with it. Or stop watching SC2 and send the message where it hurts the most. Which will be my case. And yes, that's like the worst solution to the SC2.
On November 25 2019 05:16 darklycid wrote: Reynor and Serral are both really good players but i don't want 4 Serral Reynor finals in wcs next year
If region lock doesn't end that is exactly what were getting.
That's assuming many things, like that there are 4 wcs events next year, that the game doesn't get patched so that Neeb murders zergs again etc.
That assumes that the top Koreans will travel there. Which doesn't seem much likely either
You were predicting zero koreans going to ASUS Rog, we had almost a dozen; koreans will come if they'll have the opportunity!
Let's skip the rule.
All the top players in Korea were asked. Dark, Rogue and Maru skipped. What makes you think that the top, KEY WORD BEING THE TOP, just change their minds and go to join WCS now?
Not that i care, but i cannot bare when you twist my words.
KEYWORAD IS THE TOP.
Hm? There were invites and qualifiers for ASUS Rog? Not to mention Stats went there and won the tournament.
Rogue has been to HSC before, he may very well join. Maru doesn't like to travel, but he is not winning any weekender so you shouldn't miss him that much. Dark travels when the tournament is worth. Also, those players have team who would pay for all of their travels.
On November 25 2019 05:27 LordYama wrote: What is the format for Grand Finals? What would Serral have to do to win the championship?
Win a bo5 then win a bo3. Reynor just has to win a bo5.
Does this mean that they reset the score if Serral goes e.g. 3-0? Before playing the Bo3.
Judging by how the rules are written on the liquipedia page, I think so. I'm a huge reynor fan but I don't like this rule very much and tbh I don't like the +1 game rule either.
On November 25 2019 05:26 tigon_ridge wrote: Reynor and Serral carrying the foreigners scene so severely right now, it's not even funny. Two lords among a sea of peasants. Even after the hard nerf to zerg, they's still head and shoulders above every other foreigner. Good work, boys.
Yes, so heavy nerfs they are still winning. Maybe, just maybe, they weren't so big nerfs after all...
LOL Everyone bitched about how IT was the worst thing about zerg nexus to nydus, and it got removed. Nydus got a decent nerf. They gave infestors a useless spell, that will probably hardly ever get used. Plenty of zergs out there that are not dominating like these two. Solar and soO both got obliterated. Solar barely made it out of his group, and Inno made 1st place in his, over Reynor. Maybe, just maybe, you're a perpetual balance wiener?
People surprised about a ZvZ final when you have both Reynor and Serral in the tournament.
Two of the best players in the world meeting in the final does not mean a lot. If tons of zerg players had advanced from the group stage ok, but we had just 1 from each group. Overall the best players did as expected, except Stats imo.
The finals might be a ZvZ but I'll be able to watch NW offline phase live! Fuck yeah, hopefully France qualifies Other than that, go Serral, I want to see him take revenge on the zerg prodigy
On November 25 2019 05:34 Musicus wrote: People surprised about a ZvZ final when you have both Reynor and Serral in the tournament.
Two of the best players in the world meeting in the final does not mean a lot. If tons of zerg players had advanced from the group stage ok, but we had just 1 from each group. Overall the best players did as expected, except Stats imo.
After a year of Zerg dominance seeing another Zerg dominance after a patch addressing said dominance, i don't know, maybe people are just disappointed? People would be bitching even if there were Dark and Rogue.
On November 25 2019 05:34 Poopi wrote: The finals might be a ZvZ but I'll be able to watch NW offline phase live! Fuck yeah, hopefully France qualifies Other than that, go Serral, I want to see him take revenge on the zerg prodigy
On November 25 2019 05:34 Musicus wrote: People surprised about a ZvZ final when you have both Reynor and Serral in the tournament.
Two of the best players in the world meeting in the final does not mean a lot. If tons of zerg players had advanced from the group stage ok, but we had just 1 from each group. Overall the best players did as expected, except Stats imo.
After a year of Zerg dominance seeing another Zerg dominance after a patch addressing said dominance, i don't know, maybe people are just disappointed? People would be bitching even if there were Dark and Rogue.
Serral vs Reynor finale is awesome and not surprising. They are the two best players that entered the tournament - only Dark and maybe Maru are on the same level, and they were not present.
On November 25 2019 05:29 Jerom wrote: I'm so immensely disappointed. This might not even be balance related, because Serral and Reynor are obviously very good, but 2019 has just been terrible as a Terran fan. I had high hopes for this tournament, so it feels absolutely horrible for this to be another ZvZ. If this keeps up much longer, I don't know if I want to continue watching starcraft anymore. This year is draining my passion hard.
These two have shown the best gameplay out of anyone at the tournament by far...... it's a very deserved finals. Are you only a fan of the terran race and not the game as a whole? Makes no sense to me..a terran finished 3rd place. There were a lot of insane series with terran involved (Cure, Innovation) ... what's there to be sad about?
On November 25 2019 05:34 Musicus wrote: People surprised about a ZvZ final when you have both Reynor and Serral in the tournament.
Two of the best players in the world meeting in the final does not mean a lot. If tons of zerg players had advanced from the group stage ok, but we had just 1 from each group. Overall the best players did as expected, except Stats imo.
After a year of Zerg dominance seeing another Zerg dominance after a patch addressing said dominance, i don't know, maybe people are just disappointed? People would be bitching even if there were Dark and Rogue.
The actual games looked a lot better so that's what matters to me. Both players deserve to be in the finals and even won in situations that were considered to be poor for Zerg going into the tournament. Doesn't make sense to whine about results rather than games, and the games have been far less cancerous than what we've had previously this year.
Plus, after the shock upset of Reynor beating Serral at Blizzcon, this series has quite a nice story to it. I think it has the potential to be really close as well, which I'm not sure would've been the case with Inno.
On November 25 2019 05:26 tigon_ridge wrote: Reynor and Serral carrying the foreigners scene so severely right now, it's not even funny. Two lords among a sea of peasants. Even after the hard nerf to zerg, they's still head and shoulders above every other foreigner. Good work, boys.
Yes, so heavy nerfs they are still winning. Maybe, just maybe, they weren't so big nerfs after all...
LOL Everyone bitched about how IT was the worst thing about zerg nexus to nydus, and it got removed. Nydus got a decent nerf. They gave infestors a useless spell, that will probably hardly ever get used. Plenty of zergs out there that are not dominating like these two. Solar and soO both got obliterated. Solar barely made it out of his group, and Inno made 1st place in his, over Reynor. Maybe, just maybe, you're a perpetual balance wiener?
On November 25 2019 05:34 Musicus wrote: People surprised about a ZvZ final when you have both Reynor and Serral in the tournament.
Two of the best players in the world meeting in the final does not mean a lot. If tons of zerg players had advanced from the group stage ok, but we had just 1 from each group. Overall the best players did as expected, except Stats imo.
After a year of Zerg dominance seeing another Zerg dominance after a patch addressing said dominance, i don't know, maybe people are just disappointed? People would be bitching even if there were Dark and Rogue.
The actual games looked a lot better so that's what matters to me. Both players deserve to be in the finals and even won in situations that were considered to be poor for Zerg going into the tournament. Doesn't make sense to whine about results rather than games, and the games have been far less cancerous than what we've had previously this year.
Plus, after the shock upset of Reynor beating Serral at Blizzcon, this series has quite a nice story to it. I think it has the potential to be really close as well, which I'm not sure would've been the case with Inno.
There were games lost to mass neural, to bl/infestor, to nydus/sh. Either I have a very bad luck at picking games to see or ... Anyway, gotta go, ZvZ isn't anything I would like to watch.
On November 25 2019 05:34 Musicus wrote: People surprised about a ZvZ final when you have both Reynor and Serral in the tournament.
Two of the best players in the world meeting in the final does not mean a lot. If tons of zerg players had advanced from the group stage ok, but we had just 1 from each group. Overall the best players did as expected, except Stats imo.
After a year of Zerg dominance seeing another Zerg dominance after a patch addressing said dominance, i don't know, maybe people are just disappointed? People would be bitching even if there were Dark and Rogue.
Serral vs Reynor finale is awesome and not surprising. They are the two best players that entered the tournament - only Dark and maybe Maru are on the same level, and they were not present.
so 3 of the best 4 players in the world play Zerg?
On November 25 2019 05:34 Musicus wrote: People surprised about a ZvZ final when you have both Reynor and Serral in the tournament.
Two of the best players in the world meeting in the final does not mean a lot. If tons of zerg players had advanced from the group stage ok, but we had just 1 from each group. Overall the best players did as expected, except Stats imo.
After a year of Zerg dominance seeing another Zerg dominance after a patch addressing said dominance, i don't know, maybe people are just disappointed? People would be bitching even if there were Dark and Rogue.
The actual games looked a lot better so that's what matters to me. Both players deserve to be in the finals and even won in situations that were considered to be poor for Zerg going into the tournament. Doesn't make sense to whine about results rather than games, and the games have been far less cancerous than what we've had previously this year.
Plus, after the shock upset of Reynor beating Serral at Blizzcon, this series has quite a nice story to it. I think it has the potential to be really close as well, which I'm not sure would've been the case with Inno.
There were games lost to mass neural, to bl/infestor, to nydus/sh. Either I have a very bad luck at picking games to see or ... Anyway, gotta go, ZvZ isn't anything I would like to watch.
On November 25 2019 05:34 Musicus wrote: People surprised about a ZvZ final when you have both Reynor and Serral in the tournament.
Two of the best players in the world meeting in the final does not mean a lot. If tons of zerg players had advanced from the group stage ok, but we had just 1 from each group. Overall the best players did as expected, except Stats imo.
After a year of Zerg dominance seeing another Zerg dominance after a patch addressing said dominance, i don't know, maybe people are just disappointed? People would be bitching even if there were Dark and Rogue.
The actual games looked a lot better so that's what matters to me. Both players deserve to be in the finals and even won in situations that were considered to be poor for Zerg going into the tournament. Doesn't make sense to whine about results rather than games, and the games have been far less cancerous than what we've had previously this year.
Plus, after the shock upset of Reynor beating Serral at Blizzcon, this series has quite a nice story to it. I think it has the potential to be really close as well, which I'm not sure would've been the case with Inno.
There were games lost to mass neural, to bl/infestor, to nydus/sh. Either I have a very bad luck at picking games to see or ... Anyway, gotta go, ZvZ isn't anything I would like to watch.
why not? double the shroud odds
I play a game where I have plenty of shroud, so I don't need to
On November 25 2019 05:34 Musicus wrote: People surprised about a ZvZ final when you have both Reynor and Serral in the tournament.
Two of the best players in the world meeting in the final does not mean a lot. If tons of zerg players had advanced from the group stage ok, but we had just 1 from each group. Overall the best players did as expected, except Stats imo.
After a year of Zerg dominance seeing another Zerg dominance after a patch addressing said dominance, i don't know, maybe people are just disappointed? People would be bitching even if there were Dark and Rogue.
The actual games looked a lot better so that's what matters to me. Both players deserve to be in the finals and even won in situations that were considered to be poor for Zerg going into the tournament. Doesn't make sense to whine about results rather than games, and the games have been far less cancerous than what we've had previously this year.
Plus, after the shock upset of Reynor beating Serral at Blizzcon, this series has quite a nice story to it. I think it has the potential to be really close as well, which I'm not sure would've been the case with Inno.
There were games lost to mass neural, to bl/infestor, to nydus/sh. Either I have a very bad luck at picking games to see or ... Anyway, gotta go, ZvZ isn't anything I would like to watch.
The difference is these strategies actually look beatable now. I know some people want every strategy that isn't M/L/B to be unviable, but I'd rather keep the difference unit compositions in fact, but healthier. None of the Bl/Infestor or Nydus/SH games looked unplayable at all.
On November 25 2019 05:34 Musicus wrote: People surprised about a ZvZ final when you have both Reynor and Serral in the tournament.
Two of the best players in the world meeting in the final does not mean a lot. If tons of zerg players had advanced from the group stage ok, but we had just 1 from each group. Overall the best players did as expected, except Stats imo.
nobody denies that Serral and Reynor are good but I don't think the players of the other races suck either. All the best Protoss players were present except Neeb, so better Protoss performance should be expected. Yes, Terran was missing TY and Maru but Zerg was also missing Rogue and Dark but it still didn't prevent a ZvZ finals.
On November 25 2019 05:34 Musicus wrote: People surprised about a ZvZ final when you have both Reynor and Serral in the tournament.
Two of the best players in the world meeting in the final does not mean a lot. If tons of zerg players had advanced from the group stage ok, but we had just 1 from each group. Overall the best players did as expected, except Stats imo.
nobody denies that Serral and Reynor are good but I don't think the players of the other races suck either. All the best Protoss players were present except Neeb, so better Protoss performance should be expected. Yes, Terran was missing TY and Maru but Zerg was also missing Rogue and Dark but it still didn't prevent a ZvZ finals.
Can't you just believe Reynor and Serral played better today? Did you watch the games? Zest could have easily gone up 2-1 against Serral if he were more decisive, playing just like he was doing.
On November 25 2019 05:34 Musicus wrote: People surprised about a ZvZ final when you have both Reynor and Serral in the tournament.
Two of the best players in the world meeting in the final does not mean a lot. If tons of zerg players had advanced from the group stage ok, but we had just 1 from each group. Overall the best players did as expected, except Stats imo.
nobody denies that Serral and Reynor are good but I don't think the players of the other races suck either. All the best Protoss players were present except Neeb, so better Protoss performance should be expected. Yes, Terran was missing TY and Maru but Zerg was also missing Rogue and Dark but it still didn't prevent a ZvZ finals.
Can't you just believe Reynor and Serral played better today? Did you watch the games? Zest could have easily gone up 2-1 against Serral if he were more decisive, playing just like he was doing.
On November 25 2019 05:34 Musicus wrote: People surprised about a ZvZ final when you have both Reynor and Serral in the tournament.
Two of the best players in the world meeting in the final does not mean a lot. If tons of zerg players had advanced from the group stage ok, but we had just 1 from each group. Overall the best players did as expected, except Stats imo.
nobody denies that Serral and Reynor are good but I don't think the players of the other races suck either. All the best Protoss players were present except Neeb, so better Protoss performance should be expected. Yes, Terran was missing TY and Maru but Zerg was also missing Rogue and Dark but it still didn't prevent a ZvZ finals.
Can't you just believe Reynor and Serral played better today? Did you watch the games? Zest could have easily gone up 2-1 against Serral if he were more decisive, playing just like he was doing.
you 2 should go to the next HSC and meet up!
I like this idea. Should pitch it to TaKe, it would make great filler content.
On November 25 2019 05:34 Musicus wrote: People surprised about a ZvZ final when you have both Reynor and Serral in the tournament.
Two of the best players in the world meeting in the final does not mean a lot. If tons of zerg players had advanced from the group stage ok, but we had just 1 from each group. Overall the best players did as expected, except Stats imo.
nobody denies that Serral and Reynor are good but I don't think the players of the other races suck either. All the best Protoss players were present except Neeb, so better Protoss performance should be expected. Yes, Terran was missing TY and Maru but Zerg was also missing Rogue and Dark but it still didn't prevent a ZvZ finals.
Can't you just believe Reynor and Serral played better today? Did you watch the games? Zest could have easily gone up 2-1 against Serral if he were more decisive, playing just like he was doing.
On November 25 2019 05:34 Poopi wrote: The finals might be a ZvZ but I'll be able to watch NW offline phase live! Fuck yeah, hopefully France qualifies Other than that, go Serral, I want to see him take revenge on the zerg prodigy
At the O'Gaming studios ?
Yes there was a flash sell of 40 tickets, was lucky to see the tweet 1mn after it's posted and I rushed to take one ticket
On November 25 2019 05:34 Musicus wrote: People surprised about a ZvZ final when you have both Reynor and Serral in the tournament.
Two of the best players in the world meeting in the final does not mean a lot. If tons of zerg players had advanced from the group stage ok, but we had just 1 from each group. Overall the best players did as expected, except Stats imo.
nobody denies that Serral and Reynor are good but I don't think the players of the other races suck either. All the best Protoss players were present except Neeb, so better Protoss performance should be expected. Yes, Terran was missing TY and Maru but Zerg was also missing Rogue and Dark but it still didn't prevent a ZvZ finals.
You really can't handle foreigners being good can you...
They played the best on the day. Innovation won a series vs Serral, so clearly it's not unwinnable. Just Reynor and Serral are super hot players at the moment and also far more consistent than any of the Koreans who attended (honorable mention to Trap though).
On November 25 2019 05:34 Musicus wrote: People surprised about a ZvZ final when you have both Reynor and Serral in the tournament.
Two of the best players in the world meeting in the final does not mean a lot. If tons of zerg players had advanced from the group stage ok, but we had just 1 from each group. Overall the best players did as expected, except Stats imo.
nobody denies that Serral and Reynor are good but I don't think the players of the other races suck either. All the best Protoss players were present except Neeb, so better Protoss performance should be expected. Yes, Terran was missing TY and Maru but Zerg was also missing Rogue and Dark but it still didn't prevent a ZvZ finals.
Can't you just believe Reynor and Serral played better today? Did you watch the games? Zest could have easily gone up 2-1 against Serral if he were more decisive, playing just like he was doing.
you 2 should go to the next HSC and meet up!
I like this idea. Should pitch it to TaKe, it would make great filler content.
I dunno mate, I think they need a special license to show that kind of stuff.
On November 25 2019 05:34 Musicus wrote: People surprised about a ZvZ final when you have both Reynor and Serral in the tournament.
Two of the best players in the world meeting in the final does not mean a lot. If tons of zerg players had advanced from the group stage ok, but we had just 1 from each group. Overall the best players did as expected, except Stats imo.
nobody denies that Serral and Reynor are good but I don't think the players of the other races suck either. All the best Protoss players were present except Neeb, so better Protoss performance should be expected. Yes, Terran was missing TY and Maru but Zerg was also missing Rogue and Dark but it still didn't prevent a ZvZ finals.
You really can't handle foreigners being good can you...
They played the best on the day. Innovation won a series vs Serral, so clearly it's not unwinnable. Just Reynor and Serral are super hot players at the moment and also far more consistent than any of the Koreans who attended (honorable mention to Trap though).
On November 25 2019 05:34 Musicus wrote: People surprised about a ZvZ final when you have both Reynor and Serral in the tournament.
Two of the best players in the world meeting in the final does not mean a lot. If tons of zerg players had advanced from the group stage ok, but we had just 1 from each group. Overall the best players did as expected, except Stats imo.
nobody denies that Serral and Reynor are good but I don't think the players of the other races suck either. All the best Protoss players were present except Neeb, so better Protoss performance should be expected. Yes, Terran was missing TY and Maru but Zerg was also missing Rogue and Dark but it still didn't prevent a ZvZ finals.
Can't you just believe Reynor and Serral played better today? Did you watch the games? Zest could have easily gone up 2-1 against Serral if he were more decisive, playing just like he was doing.
you 2 should go to the next HSC and meet up!
I like this idea. Should pitch it to TaKe, it would make great filler content.
On November 25 2019 05:34 Musicus wrote: People surprised about a ZvZ final when you have both Reynor and Serral in the tournament.
Two of the best players in the world meeting in the final does not mean a lot. If tons of zerg players had advanced from the group stage ok, but we had just 1 from each group. Overall the best players did as expected, except Stats imo.
nobody denies that Serral and Reynor are good but I don't think the players of the other races suck either. All the best Protoss players were present except Neeb, so better Protoss performance should be expected. Yes, Terran was missing TY and Maru but Zerg was also missing Rogue and Dark but it still didn't prevent a ZvZ finals.
Can't you just believe Reynor and Serral played better today? Did you watch the games? Zest could have easily gone up 2-1 against Serral if he were more decisive, playing just like he was doing.
you 2 should go to the next HSC and meet up!
I like this idea. Should pitch it to TaKe, it would make great filler content.
I dunno mate, I think they need a special license to show that kind of stuff.
Can make it Pay per View to finance the next four HSCs as well.
On November 25 2019 05:34 Musicus wrote: People surprised about a ZvZ final when you have both Reynor and Serral in the tournament.
Two of the best players in the world meeting in the final does not mean a lot. If tons of zerg players had advanced from the group stage ok, but we had just 1 from each group. Overall the best players did as expected, except Stats imo.
nobody denies that Serral and Reynor are good but I don't think the players of the other races suck either. All the best Protoss players were present except Neeb, so better Protoss performance should be expected. Yes, Terran was missing TY and Maru but Zerg was also missing Rogue and Dark but it still didn't prevent a ZvZ finals.
Can't you just believe Reynor and Serral played better today? Did you watch the games? Zest could have easily gone up 2-1 against Serral if he were more decisive, playing just like he was doing.
you 2 should go to the next HSC and meet up!
I like this idea. Should pitch it to TaKe, it would make great filler content.
I like this idea, too. I have nothing against Charoisaur as a person, we just have completely different points of view regarding Sc2.
On November 25 2019 05:34 Musicus wrote: People surprised about a ZvZ final when you have both Reynor and Serral in the tournament.
Two of the best players in the world meeting in the final does not mean a lot. If tons of zerg players had advanced from the group stage ok, but we had just 1 from each group. Overall the best players did as expected, except Stats imo.
nobody denies that Serral and Reynor are good but I don't think the players of the other races suck either. All the best Protoss players were present except Neeb, so better Protoss performance should be expected. Yes, Terran was missing TY and Maru but Zerg was also missing Rogue and Dark but it still didn't prevent a ZvZ finals.
You really can't handle foreigners being good can you...
They played the best on the day. Innovation won a series vs Serral, so clearly it's not unwinnable. Just Reynor and Serral are super hot players at the moment and also far more consistent than any of the Koreans who attended (honorable mention to Trap though).
who said anything on foreigners vs koreans?
I think it's still a bit too early to be sure. Hopefully things aren't so bad as last patch (it's hard to top anyways)
But usually zergs tend to do well after a few weeks of a new patch, so it's maybe worrying / kinda weird they are still doing surprisingly well.
On November 25 2019 05:34 Musicus wrote: People surprised about a ZvZ final when you have both Reynor and Serral in the tournament.
Two of the best players in the world meeting in the final does not mean a lot. If tons of zerg players had advanced from the group stage ok, but we had just 1 from each group. Overall the best players did as expected, except Stats imo.
nobody denies that Serral and Reynor are good but I don't think the players of the other races suck either. All the best Protoss players were present except Neeb, so better Protoss performance should be expected. Yes, Terran was missing TY and Maru but Zerg was also missing Rogue and Dark but it still didn't prevent a ZvZ finals.
You really can't handle foreigners being good can you...
They played the best on the day. Innovation won a series vs Serral, so clearly it's not unwinnable. Just Reynor and Serral are super hot players at the moment and also far more consistent than any of the Koreans who attended (honorable mention to Trap though).
who said anything on foreigners vs koreans?
You, in every post you've ever written pretty much.
On November 25 2019 05:59 stilt wrote: I must admit, I was pretty sure Zerg late game would be bad and wouldn't have bet on a zvz final. Happy I was wrong
On November 25 2019 05:34 Musicus wrote: People surprised about a ZvZ final when you have both Reynor and Serral in the tournament.
Two of the best players in the world meeting in the final does not mean a lot. If tons of zerg players had advanced from the group stage ok, but we had just 1 from each group. Overall the best players did as expected, except Stats imo.
nobody denies that Serral and Reynor are good but I don't think the players of the other races suck either. All the best Protoss players were present except Neeb, so better Protoss performance should be expected. Yes, Terran was missing TY and Maru but Zerg was also missing Rogue and Dark but it still didn't prevent a ZvZ finals.
Can't you just believe Reynor and Serral played better today? Did you watch the games? Zest could have easily gone up 2-1 against Serral if he were more decisive, playing just like he was doing.
I could believe they played better today. I can't believe soO, Dark, Rogue, Elazer, Solar, Serral, and Reynor have all played better than the multitude of T/P players who haven't done as well as them this year.
On November 25 2019 05:34 Musicus wrote: People surprised about a ZvZ final when you have both Reynor and Serral in the tournament.
Two of the best players in the world meeting in the final does not mean a lot. If tons of zerg players had advanced from the group stage ok, but we had just 1 from each group. Overall the best players did as expected, except Stats imo.
nobody denies that Serral and Reynor are good but I don't think the players of the other races suck either. All the best Protoss players were present except Neeb, so better Protoss performance should be expected. Yes, Terran was missing TY and Maru but Zerg was also missing Rogue and Dark but it still didn't prevent a ZvZ finals.
Hm, what would be better Protoss performance? Way more Protoss advanced than Zergs from the group stage. We had 1 Protoss in the top 4, seems about right when i look at the lineup. Sure we could've had two with Stats/Trap in the tournament, but you never know.
I think it's pretty cool that Inno made top3 already and with TY/Maru/Dark missing, that final just seems right.
On November 25 2019 05:34 Musicus wrote: People surprised about a ZvZ final when you have both Reynor and Serral in the tournament.
Two of the best players in the world meeting in the final does not mean a lot. If tons of zerg players had advanced from the group stage ok, but we had just 1 from each group. Overall the best players did as expected, except Stats imo.
nobody denies that Serral and Reynor are good but I don't think the players of the other races suck either. All the best Protoss players were present except Neeb, so better Protoss performance should be expected. Yes, Terran was missing TY and Maru but Zerg was also missing Rogue and Dark but it still didn't prevent a ZvZ finals.
Can't you just believe Reynor and Serral played better today? Did you watch the games? Zest could have easily gone up 2-1 against Serral if he were more decisive, playing just like he was doing.
I could believe they played better today. I can't believe soO, Dark, Rogue, Elazer, Solar, Serral, and Reynor have all played better than the multitude of T/P players who haven't done as well as them this year.
Those were other patches. The one that hit post GSL vs The World was especially poor and too favourable to Zerg.
On November 25 2019 05:34 Musicus wrote: People surprised about a ZvZ final when you have both Reynor and Serral in the tournament.
Two of the best players in the world meeting in the final does not mean a lot. If tons of zerg players had advanced from the group stage ok, but we had just 1 from each group. Overall the best players did as expected, except Stats imo.
nobody denies that Serral and Reynor are good but I don't think the players of the other races suck either. All the best Protoss players were present except Neeb, so better Protoss performance should be expected. Yes, Terran was missing TY and Maru but Zerg was also missing Rogue and Dark but it still didn't prevent a ZvZ finals.
You really can't handle foreigners being good can you...
They played the best on the day. Innovation won a series vs Serral, so clearly it's not unwinnable. Just Reynor and Serral are super hot players at the moment and also far more consistent than any of the Koreans who attended (honorable mention to Trap though).
who said anything on foreigners vs koreans?
I think it's still a bit too early to be sure. Hopefully things aren't so bad as last patch (it's hard to top anyways)
But usually zergs tend to do well after a few weeks of a new patch, so it's maybe worrying / kinda weird they are still doing surprisingly well.
I'm mostly a big fan of the patch but it's not as crazy (and far more balanced) than previous end-of-year stuff. Zerg doesn't need to relearn drone timings and defensive timings like they've had to in the past so the transitions has felt a lot smoother. Feels like they still haven't fully figured out how to defend the new mech very well but they kinda got a bit lucky that the only Terran who survived far doesn't like mech in TvZ (and ofc, Reynor scrapped by Cure in close games). Otherwise, they've adapted very quickly cos it's much of the same, they're just a bit weaker.
On November 25 2019 05:34 Musicus wrote: People surprised about a ZvZ final when you have both Reynor and Serral in the tournament.
Two of the best players in the world meeting in the final does not mean a lot. If tons of zerg players had advanced from the group stage ok, but we had just 1 from each group. Overall the best players did as expected, except Stats imo.
nobody denies that Serral and Reynor are good but I don't think the players of the other races suck either. All the best Protoss players were present except Neeb, so better Protoss performance should be expected. Yes, Terran was missing TY and Maru but Zerg was also missing Rogue and Dark but it still didn't prevent a ZvZ finals.
Can't you just believe Reynor and Serral played better today? Did you watch the games? Zest could have easily gone up 2-1 against Serral if he were more decisive, playing just like he was doing.
I could believe they played better today. I can't believe soO, Dark, Rogue, Elazer, Solar, Serral, and Reynor have all played better than the multitude of T/P players who haven't done as well as them this year.
Not a whine post but zergs just easier to play for weekend tournaments. u need refined builds and diverse strategy as terran and protoss to compete
I don't understand the balance whine at all, they literally just had a major nerf. Zerg had the least players in Ro16. It just happens that 2 of the top 3 players in the world are in the tournament and it's unsurprising that they reached the finals. People should be applauding them for making it in spite of the nerf which claimed all other zergs in the tournament.
Obviously there is bias from pretty much everyone engaging in these conversations (including what i am about to say), but when i look at these ZvX games i don't really have the feeling that zerg can lose if they play well. If they have a decent opening and don't completely fail (apparently killing your own expo isn't enough either!) they always seem to be favored. A million units roling in with minimal micro required while the other races just die to it, creep everywhere with static d approaching your bases, super potent spellcasting combos, ferrari overlords scouting every move, etc. I think zerg is by far the best race if you want to be consistent at the very top right now, so yeah they might play well but it always feels like it might just be a little easier to do so.
On November 25 2019 05:34 Musicus wrote: People surprised about a ZvZ final when you have both Reynor and Serral in the tournament.
Two of the best players in the world meeting in the final does not mean a lot. If tons of zerg players had advanced from the group stage ok, but we had just 1 from each group. Overall the best players did as expected, except Stats imo.
nobody denies that Serral and Reynor are good but I don't think the players of the other races suck either. All the best Protoss players were present except Neeb, so better Protoss performance should be expected. Yes, Terran was missing TY and Maru but Zerg was also missing Rogue and Dark but it still didn't prevent a ZvZ finals.
Can't you just believe Reynor and Serral played better today? Did you watch the games? Zest could have easily gone up 2-1 against Serral if he were more decisive, playing just like he was doing.
Yes, and they played better the day before and the day before and the day before and the day before.........
And then suddenly you realize all the zergs have been playing better for the last two years. Magic!
On November 25 2019 06:15 The_Red_Viper wrote: Obviously there is bias from pretty much everyone engaging in these conversations (including what i am about to say), but when i look at these ZvX games i don't really have the feeling that zerg can lose if they play well. If they have a decent opening and don't completely fail (apparently killing your own expo isn't enough either!) they always seem to be favored. A million units roling in with minimal micro required while the other races just die to it, creep everywhere with static d approaching your bases, super potent spellcasting combos, ferrari overlords scouting every move, etc. I think zerg is by far the best race if you want to be consistent at the very top right now, so yeah they might play well but it always feels like it might just be a little easier to do so.
Zerg was absurdly op before the patch. We don't have enough information to know if it's still the case now. There is no result that this tournament could have had that would have given us this information, and acting like it's the case is weird.
The problem to me is that the games didn't even feel close. There were not so much sense of excitement and suspense but rather an impending, inevitable doom for the terran/protoss. It feels like if zerg plays "perfectly" and reaches the late-game, the protoss/terran can't play their "perfect" and reach their late-game style to win.
On November 25 2019 06:08 Dave4 wrote: I don't understand the balance whine at all, they literally just had a major nerf. Zerg had the least players in Ro16. It just happens that 2 of the top 3 players in the world are in the tournament and it's unsurprising that they reached the finals. People should be applauding them for making it in spite of the nerf which claimed all other zergs in the tournament.
I did say after the september power rank article that Reynor deserved to be in the top 10, and that his prior losses to koreans weren't representative of his average performance. Aligulac showed that clearly, and it's only recently that his tournament results began to reflect his rating. This is proof that judging players by their most recent tournament results is just plain stupid, especially given how coin-flippy the single-elimination format is. If this tournament wasn't a double elimination, everyone would say that Inno crushed Serral.
On November 25 2019 06:11 [F_]aths wrote: Applause for TakeSen.
This actually is better than Blizzcon.
Without any exaggeration: imo, the Homestory Cup is the best eSports event period. I know it's not the most "serious business" at times, but I just feel like there's nothing that comes close.
On November 25 2019 05:34 Musicus wrote: People surprised about a ZvZ final when you have both Reynor and Serral in the tournament.
Two of the best players in the world meeting in the final does not mean a lot. If tons of zerg players had advanced from the group stage ok, but we had just 1 from each group. Overall the best players did as expected, except Stats imo.
nobody denies that Serral and Reynor are good but I don't think the players of the other races suck either. All the best Protoss players were present except Neeb, so better Protoss performance should be expected. Yes, Terran was missing TY and Maru but Zerg was also missing Rogue and Dark but it still didn't prevent a ZvZ finals.
Can't you just believe Reynor and Serral played better today? Did you watch the games? Zest could have easily gone up 2-1 against Serral if he were more decisive, playing just like he was doing.
Yes, and they played better the day before and the day before and the day before and the day before.........
And then suddenly you realize all the zergs have been playing better for the last two years. Magic!
That's the thing, it's not all the zergs, look a the race distribution in the ro16.
If there one thing that may be OP in it that banelings are just 0.5 supply. Banelings beat everything if you have resources for it. Banelings at 1 supply would suck though, maybe 0.75 supply would the balanced.
But typically you do not have the resources for 50+ banelings if you were not winning already, so it is hard to tell.
On November 25 2019 06:27 blooblooblahblah wrote: I know the shroud is a bit of a meme but surely it actually potential use against mutas in this matchup right?
like how? if u re in a muta vs hydra scenario, you're not worried as the hydra player that u d lose the heads up fight vs mutas. If u have infestors within cast range of mutas, u cast fungal, no question. Even if it gave 100% cover, u dont even entertain the idea of ever casting it, u always fungal
On November 25 2019 06:27 blooblooblahblah wrote: I know the shroud is a bit of a meme but surely it actually potential use against mutas in this matchup right?
like how? if u re in a muta vs hydra scenario, you're not worried as the hydra player that u d lose the heads up fight vs mutas. If u have infestors within cast range of mutas, u cast fungal, no question. Even if it gave 100% cover, u dont even entertain the idea of ever casting it, u always fungal
On November 25 2019 06:27 blooblooblahblah wrote: I know the shroud is a bit of a meme but surely it actually potential use against mutas in this matchup right?
like how? if u re in a muta vs hydra scenario, you're not worried as the hydra player that u d lose the heads up fight vs mutas. If u have infestors within cast range of mutas, u cast fungal, no question. Even if it gave 100% cover, u dont even entertain the idea of ever casting it, u always fungal
I guess if you have enough infestors you might cast both fungal and shroud. But you're probably winning that fight anyhow.
On November 25 2019 06:27 blooblooblahblah wrote: I know the shroud is a bit of a meme but surely it actually potential use against mutas in this matchup right?
like how? if u re in a muta vs hydra scenario, you're not worried as the hydra player that u d lose the heads up fight vs mutas. If u have infestors within cast range of mutas, u cast fungal, no question. Even if it gave 100% cover, u dont even entertain the idea of ever casting it, u always fungal
Whoever's winning should just cast it once in the last match on his opponent's workers.
On November 25 2019 06:39 HolydaKing wrote: Wow, I thought Reynor was dead there...
neah, he was fine, he stopped droning, didnt saturate 3rd at all, used it to flank Serral's push, overall perfect response, some very minor micro mistakes, but those were on both sides
On November 25 2019 06:39 HolydaKing wrote: Wow, I thought Reynor was dead there...
neah, he was fine, he stopped droning, didnt saturate 4th at all, used it to flank Serral's push, overall perfect response, some very minor micro mistakes, but those were on both sides
well, the army supply was 46 to 28 or similar at one point. guess all those units were walking over the map..
On November 25 2019 06:27 blooblooblahblah wrote: I know the shroud is a bit of a meme but surely it actually potential use against mutas in this matchup right?
like how? if u re in a muta vs hydra scenario, you're not worried as the hydra player that u d lose the heads up fight vs mutas. If u have infestors within cast range of mutas, u cast fungal, no question. Even if it gave 100% cover, u dont even entertain the idea of ever casting it, u always fungal
On November 25 2019 06:39 HolydaKing wrote: Wow, I thought Reynor was dead there...
neah, he was fine, he stopped droning, didnt saturate 4th at all, used it to flank Serral's push, overall perfect response, some very minor micro mistakes, but those were on both sides
well, the army supply was 46 to 28 or similar at one point. guess all those units were walking over the map..
they were, and with slow roaches that's quite the journey. Maybe he breaks him, or comes up even if Reynor doesnt save the 2 crawlers right away
On November 25 2019 06:27 blooblooblahblah wrote: I know the shroud is a bit of a meme but surely it actually potential use against mutas in this matchup right?
like how? if u re in a muta vs hydra scenario, you're not worried as the hydra player that u d lose the heads up fight vs mutas. If u have infestors within cast range of mutas, u cast fungal, no question. Even if it gave 100% cover, u dont even entertain the idea of ever casting it, u always fungal
I don't see a reason why you couldn't/wouldn't use both though
Vipers just don't seem to care what they drain in these games. Whether it's low health hatcheries, vulnerable spires, damaged roach warrens. That's what happens when you can't afford the complementary evo chambers.
What classic rivalries have we had in SC2 between players so far? Did players like MVP, MC or Nestea have individual players they met frequently in finals or late in tournaments>
On November 25 2019 07:34 LordYama wrote: What classic rivalries have we had in SC2 between players so far? Did players like MVP, MC or Nestea have individual players they met frequently in finals or late in tournaments>
Mvp vs MMA of course. Also Mvp vs MarineKing though that one was a bit one-sided given that MKP always lost.
On November 25 2019 07:35 tigon_ridge wrote: HAHAHAHAHA
Hate ZvZ finals?
How about TWO ZvZ finals in one day?! HA!
that's 2 less than the maximum (optimal) number of ZvZ finals. We could have had upper and lower bracket finals ZvZ as well, alas i'm happy with the outcome
This really looks like a Serral victory now. It must be hard for Reynor to now be on equal footing with the guy from the loser's bracket, plus Serral just won two maps in a row, especially the really long, gritty game.
On November 25 2019 07:40 sneakyfox wrote: This really looks like a Serral victory now. It must be hard for Reynor to now be on equal footing with the guy from the loser's bracket, plus Serral just won two maps in a row, especially the really long, gritty game.
On November 25 2019 07:40 sneakyfox wrote: This really looks like a Serral victory now. It must be hard for Reynor to now be on equal footing with the guy from the loser's bracket, plus Serral just won two maps in a row, especially the really long, gritty game.
On November 25 2019 07:34 LordYama wrote: What classic rivalries have we had in SC2 between players so far? Did players like MVP, MC or Nestea have individual players they met frequently in finals or late in tournaments>
On November 25 2019 07:40 sneakyfox wrote: This really looks like a Serral victory now. It must be hard for Reynor to now be on equal footing with the guy from the loser's bracket, plus Serral just won two maps in a row, especially the really long, gritty game.
ehhh I think it's iffy to read too deeply into mentality or anything as fans, if the player doesn't explicitly talk about it.
both serral and reynor have won incredible comeback games against each other, as well as overcoming series score deficits
On November 25 2019 07:34 LordYama wrote: What classic rivalries have we had in SC2 between players so far? Did players like MVP, MC or Nestea have individual players they met frequently in finals or late in tournaments>
Life vs Taeja
Excuse me, we do not speak of this individual around these parts
On November 25 2019 07:40 sneakyfox wrote: This really looks like a Serral victory now. It must be hard for Reynor to now be on equal footing with the guy from the loser's bracket, plus Serral just won two maps in a row, especially the really long, gritty game.
ehhh I think it's iffy to read too deeply into mentality or anything as fans, if the player doesn't explicitly talk about it.
both serral and reynor have won incredible comeback games against each other, as well as overcoming series score deficits
Yeah, fans don't have Wolf's expertise at diagnosing tilt.
On November 25 2019 07:40 sneakyfox wrote: This really looks like a Serral victory now. It must be hard for Reynor to now be on equal footing with the guy from the loser's bracket, plus Serral just won two maps in a row, especially the really long, gritty game.
ehhh I think it's iffy to read too deeply into mentality or anything as fans, if the player doesn't explicitly talk about it.
both serral and reynor have won incredible comeback games against each other, as well as overcoming series score deficits
Yeah, fans don't have Wolf's expertise at diagnosing tilt.
I cast myself down before the feet of the mighty Master of tilt-assessment.
On November 25 2019 07:51 Geo.Rion wrote: These guys are taking mirror to the next level, 2 upgrades finishing simultaneously within 0.2 sec, twice in a row
On November 25 2019 07:55 HolydaKing wrote: reynor would be the winner now if the rules of the last homestory cup were in play, I wonder if the new rules make a difference. :D
Yes, but the 1 map advantage format has long been criticized, and rightly so imo. This is a much better format
On November 25 2019 07:34 LordYama wrote: What classic rivalries have we had in SC2 between players so far? Did players like MVP, MC or Nestea have individual players they met frequently in finals or late in tournaments>
Life vs Taeja
Excuse me, we do not speak of this individual around these parts
On November 25 2019 07:34 LordYama wrote: What classic rivalries have we had in SC2 between players so far? Did players like MVP, MC or Nestea have individual players they met frequently in finals or late in tournaments>
Life vs Taeja
Excuse me, we do not speak of this individual around these parts
On November 25 2019 07:34 LordYama wrote: What classic rivalries have we had in SC2 between players so far? Did players like MVP, MC or Nestea have individual players they met frequently in finals or late in tournaments>
Life vs Taeja
Excuse me, we do not speak of this individual around these parts
There is article about saviOr so why not Life?
I was somewhat joking but it's kinda tough to talk about a rivalry when we cant be sure one wasnt losing on purpose
On November 25 2019 07:57 sneakyfox wrote: I guess the games are okay but we haven't even seen the Shroud upgrade researched, let alone used :[
I unironically respect your priorities, I don't even know what the new ability looks like, let alone how it plays
no one does, it might not even exist
After you build infesters, reach hive, research it...when you finally click the button to cast the ability, nothing happens and a sad emoticon pops on the screen
On November 25 2019 07:34 LordYama wrote: What classic rivalries have we had in SC2 between players so far? Did players like MVP, MC or Nestea have individual players they met frequently in finals or late in tournaments>
Life vs Taeja
Excuse me, we do not speak of this individual around these parts
There is article about saviOr so why not Life?
I was somewhat joking but it's kinda tough to talk about a rivalry when we cant be sure one wasnt losing on purpose
Exploding banelings in katowice 2014 were a bit weird but cmon, Life was playing way too well in most of his encounters against Taeja (even when he lost) to allow us thinking that he was throwing.
On November 25 2019 08:03 Waxangel wrote: The big picture is that these two guys are really closely matched, and either one has a really even chance of winning a given map or series.
I feel like you guys would enjoy the NBA; you could do a 180 on your opinion every 24 seconds instead of every 10 minutes
That game has bad balance--dunno why they don't nerf the three-point shot.
On November 25 2019 07:57 sneakyfox wrote: I guess the games are okay but we haven't even seen the Shroud upgrade researched, let alone used :[
I unironically respect your priorities, I don't even know what the new ability looks like, let alone how it plays
no one does, it might not even exist
After you build infesters, reach hive, research it...when you finally click the button to cast the ability, nothing happens and a sad emoticon pops on the screen
haha, bizar btw everything you have to do to even get it
On November 25 2019 07:55 HolydaKing wrote: reynor would be the winner now if the rules of the last homestory cup were in play, I wonder if the new rules make a difference. :D
Yes, but the 1 map advantage format has long been criticized, and rightly so imo. This is a much better format
Eh, this one is harder for the loser bracket. It just gives us more games on average. The winner bracket score line can be anywhere from 3-0 or 4-4 and the loser's is from 5-0 to 5-3
Can we now please never ever do single elimination again, please, tournament organizers? This tournament proves that good format is absolutely important. That's not to say that the reason was that my favorite player won; Serral's simply better by history and rating, but we wouldn't have seen evidence of that if HSC was a SE crap show.
On November 25 2019 07:55 HolydaKing wrote: reynor would be the winner now if the rules of the last homestory cup were in play, I wonder if the new rules make a difference. :D
Yes, but the 1 map advantage format has long been criticized, and rightly so imo. This is a much better format
Eh, this one is harder for the loser bracket. It just gives us more games on average. The winner bracket score line can be anywhere from 3-0 or 4-4 and the loser's is from 5-0 to 5-3
The person in the winner's bracket hasn't lost a series yet, so this one is fair. Whereas a one map advantage in a bo7 is far less than a series advantage.
On November 25 2019 07:34 LordYama wrote: What classic rivalries have we had in SC2 between players so far? Did players like MVP, MC or Nestea have individual players they met frequently in finals or late in tournaments>
On November 25 2019 07:34 LordYama wrote: What classic rivalries have we had in SC2 between players so far? Did players like MVP, MC or Nestea have individual players they met frequently in finals or late in tournaments>
On November 25 2019 07:34 LordYama wrote: What classic rivalries have we had in SC2 between players so far? Did players like MVP, MC or Nestea have individual players they met frequently in finals or late in tournaments>
On November 25 2019 08:21 TheOneAboveU wrote: Equalized with TaeJa now in terms of HSC wins (as well as the feat of winning three in a row).
Not only, my friend!
With this trophy, Serral ties TaeJa at eleven Premier titles(the most out of any Sc2 player ever) and actually rewrites history proving Stuchiu's prophecy wrong: he said that we would have seen no one winning as much in such a short time span, but Serral's 22 months(January 2018-November 2019) were even faster than TaeJa's 24(July 2012-July 2014).
Thanks for such crazy 4 days! So much fun content with great games (I've enjoyed many series and congratz to Serra), and so many important people who built the scene alongisde with all of us, having chills...
Great event, the best of 2019 for me for sure (and probably the best ever...), it will always be in my mind! Amazing job by Take! Keep it going, it is you who continues to build the legacy of starcraft2!
I feel like 80 percent of the time the corruptor player in muta vs corruptor loses, or that's the way it seems to me. The couple of times I've seen the corruptor player make it work and win that player was Serral. Good stuff.
On November 25 2019 08:43 stilt wrote: Damn, even if I don't know anyone, I would have love to hang out with them x)
There's just a way more personal feel to this compared to the more official and rigid esports productions, which I guess is the point. And the venue was just absurd and awesome. Haven't watched a lot of Starcraft recently but I'm glad I tuned into this.
Sad I had to be at work for the finals. I did manage to catch Reynor vs. INno beforehand and I was surprised that anyone could stop Reynor - even Serral. Both of those dudes just look straight up unbeatable sometimes. Thanks again to everyone involved in running this amazingly unique tournament. Much love!
On November 25 2019 08:34 ZigguratOfUr wrote: This event truly stood out. A huge contrast to what Blizzcon was.
HSC always does. I don’t know why Blizzard don’t emulate more elements of HSC in their productions.
I think most Starcraft viewers love both the games and the connection we have with tons of figures in the community that feels organic and genuine.
Not sure how other eSports work but that dynamic definitely seems to be a big pull for many of us fans, make more use of it.
Don’t have to have folks boozing it up but having the pro players on the couch and whatnot giving their opinions makes the downtime so much more enjoyable and at times insightful too.
Love Special anyway but he was a real star of the show for me at this HSC for example. Obviously not every player will be in the mood but productions could use waiting/eliminated pros to add both entertainment and insight into all sorts of tournaments.
On November 25 2019 08:34 ZigguratOfUr wrote: This event truly stood out. A huge contrast to what Blizzcon was.
HSC always does. I don’t know why Blizzard don’t emulate more elements of HSC in their productions.
I think most Starcraft viewers love both the games and the connection we have with tons of figures in the community that feels organic and genuine.
Not sure how other eSports work but that dynamic definitely seems to be a big pull for many of us fans, make more use of it.
Don’t have to have folks boozing it up but having the pro players on the couch and whatnot giving their opinions makes the downtime so much more enjoyable and at times insightful too.
Love Special anyway but he was a real star of the show for me at this HSC for example. Obviously not every player will be in the mood but productions could use waiting/eliminated pros to add both entertainment and insight into all sorts of tournaments.
I love Homestory cup, it is my favorite tournament and this one was especially great. But I don't agree with the "make blizzcon more like homestory cup" narrative. Blizzcon is and should be a different kind of event imo. It's the most important tourney of the year with the highest stakes, players will never be as relaxed as they are at the HSC.
Blizzcon did not suck because it was not like HSC, it sucked because the format was horrible. Making the groupstage unwatchable for Europeans (who are the biggest and most passionate fanbase of SC2 for a while now) killed any kind of hype for me. The break between group stages and playoffs did not help either and making it a one day event at blizzcon was a shitty idea too. They also talked on the pylon show about how the arena production crew was not prepared to hold an SC2 event and how it all felt like they were just the sidekick to Overwatch.